by B.B. Pelletier
A couple of announcements….
First, the new podcast is up.
Second, some of you have noticed that the list of Weihrauch spring rifles is dwindling and are not being replaced. Pyramyd AIR has experienced extreme difficulty getting these air rifles in a timely manner and has decided not to reorder after they sell out of what’s in stock. The last shipment took longer than 6 months to come in and they are tired of disappointing customers. Of course, you can still get some Weihrauch models under the Beeman name, but you’ll pay extra. If and when Pyramyd AIR can reach an accord with Weihrauch over the timely fulfillment of their spring gun orders, they’ll resume stocking them. The rifles are still great, but the shipping time is unrealistic.
Okay, continuing with our round of surprises, today we start looking at the .25-caliber Webley Patriot with a gas spring. Patriots with gas springs were available back in the 1990s, but the gas springs have not been available in recent years. They are again! Remember, the Beeman Kodiak is exactly the same rifle as the Patriot, so whatever I say here also applies to them.
Power stays constant
I didn’t make the swap of powerplants in this rifle, so there’s nothing to compare the gas spring to, but traditionally the power remains the same. What changes, of course, are the firing characteristics. There’s still a forward jolt, but it’s less than with the steel mainspring. Vibration is greatly reduced, and velocity is very consistent with the right pellets.
Hold loosely
With all spring rifles, a loose hold is mandatory for best accuracy. With powerhouses such as the Patriot, a loose hold also protects the shooter. What do I mean by “protect”? Well, a Patriot can give a shooter a headache if the hold is too tight. With the gas spring, the vibration that causes the ill feelings is greatly reduced. The recoil is also less, but in this rifle there is still a fair amount of forward kick. You definitely want to use a scope with proven ruggedness.
Cocking
Let’s be honest, a Webley Patriot is not a rifle you cock with one arm many times – even a standard one. I love to watch real he-men try to shoot a string of just 10 shots. By shot 5, they’ll be using both arms! And, remember that a gas spring has resistance throughout the entire cocking stroke. That translates to a two-handed cocking effort every time. I measured the effort of the test rifle and found it to be just 45 pounds! I had guessed before measuring that it was 60! A steel-spring Patriot cocks with 50 lbs. of effort, so the gas spring is clearly less, though, again, I must say that I don’t think you’ll believe it when you cock the rifle.
Velocity and power
This is what you really want to know. I tried four pellets – Diana Magnums, Beeman Ram Jets, Beeman Silver Stings and Beeman Kodiaks, with Kodiaks being the traditional best pellet for this rifle.
Beeman Kodiaks
I discovered something about loading the Kodiaks that made a world of difference. Don’t push them into the bore. Let the back of the pellet skirt sit flush with or just above the level of the breech, and you’ll gain an extra two foot-pounds of energy. The Kodiak fits the breech like it was made for it, so this technique isn’t difficult to learn. Just load the pellet normally and don’t push it in hard. Beeman Kodiaks averaged 649 f.p.s., which is exactly 29 foot-pounds. They ranged from a low of 646 to a high of 651, for an unbelievably tight spread of just 5 f.p.s. Deep-seating drops the velocity to 610-630.
Diana Magnums
This is a 20-grain domed pellet that works great in Whiscombes, but I haven’t had good luck with it in a Patriot. Some folks love it, though, which is why I tested it. They are too small for the breech of the rifle I’m testing, and the numbers show that all too clearly. If they’re pushed in too far or if the particular pellet is too small at the skirt, the velocity plunges to about 700 f.p.s. When I flared the skirts a little with the fat end of a Bic ballpoint pen, the velocity ranged over 800 f.p.s. Velocity for untreated pellets averaged 731 f.p.s and ranged from a low of 686 f.p.s. to a high of 766. I cannot recommend these pellets for this Turkish-made Patriot.
Beeman Ram Jet
This semi-wadcutter has a domed top inside the flat top and weighs about 24.5 grains – heavier than what is listed on the Pyramyd AIR website. Perhaps the older batch I have is slightly heavier. The pellets fall into the breech, then hang up tight on the skirt. They average 740 f.p.s. with a tight spread from 737 to 743 – just 6 f.p.s. That’s a muzzle energy of 29.8 foot-pounds. A potentially good pellet!
Beeman Silver Sting
The Silver Sting is a 25.1-grain pointed pellet that gets very little press, but in .25 caliber I use the H&N-made Beemans almost exclusively. This one has good resistance in the Patriot’s breech and averaged 725 f.p.s., with an 18 foot-second spread from 715 to 733. Though that was the greatest spread of all the good pellets (I’m not going to try the Diana Mags any farther), it’s still very tight for a spring air rifle. The average muzzle energy is 29.3 foot-pounds.
What’s the big deal about pellet fit?
You may have noticed that I seem to pay more attention to pellet fit these days. That’s because I’m currently testing some real magnum spring rifles. All spring rifles are violent with their pellets, often blowing the skirts out against the barrel walls, so pellet fit is important. I think the little experiment with the Diana Mags proves that. These magnums are the absolute worst in this respect, so you want tough pellets that fit the guns well and offer some resistance to the powerful hammer-blast of air.
Is the gas spring worth the trouble in a Patriot?
You bet it is! Just to reduce that terrible recoil and vibration is worth the trouble and/or cost you will go through to get one in a gun. You can also leave the rifle cocked for hours, so hunting becomes a joy again. And, the Patriot is a pure hunting rifle! Nobody will ever mistake it for a plinker after cocking it once. Also, there is zero torque from the mainspring, something that really plagues some powerful spring rifles.
Pyramyd AIR has no new Patriots to sell at this time, so until they arrive in January, they’ll be retrofitting your Patriot/Beeman Kodiak rifles. Any caliber can be converted.
Hi BB, when will you have the follow up on the laser article?
Mike T.
Mike T.
It’s overdue, isn’t it?
How about Monday?
B.B.
Hi BB,
Just A little FYI. The history has A show called The History of Toys and Games. In that show , they had A segment about BB GUNS. They showed A BB gun that was very rare (known in the world) and very expensive to buy. They also an original red ryder that was given away free when someone bought A fan. If you or anyone wants to see it. It’s well worth searching the History Channel site for it.
BobC
A follow up about why this service you linked to is listed by Pyramyd as discontinued would be nice.
Hi BB, Monday for the laser followup sounds great!
Mike T.
robert,
I see you are a History channel fan. I seen a show on there once completely about airguns. Did you know that back in the early days of firearms, ariguns were more valuable than muskets. Royalty often used them to hunt with because reloading was faster, provided that the air chamber was pumped-up before hand. Lewis and Clark also took an air rifle with them on their famous expedition. It was a very interesting show. I personally didn’t know that airguns have been in use for so long.
mech
B.B. how would you compare this new gun to the old RX-1? From SAVAGESAM
B.B.,
You wrote that the .25 Diana Magnum pellet, “works great in Whiscombes,” but when I spoke with John W. last winter he explained that he no longer makes the .25 barrel for his rifles because there are no longer pellets made that shoot accurately in his .25 rifles. He is not a man to be pushed, and was hesitant to guess at the accuracy of current .25 pellets in his rifles as it had been some time since he had tried them, but my sense was that at 50 yards groups were an inch or two – he seemed disgusted with the quality of available .25 pellets. So, I am very curious what groups you achieve using these .25 pellets in your Whiscombe at 25, 50, 75 yards. Thank you very much.
– Dr. G.
sounds like an awesome gun!
K. Rihanek,
They still haven’t posted the price and what you see is the default.
B.B.
Dr G.
I haven’t tested them beyond about 35 yards, at which range they group about 3/4″. No .22 is a tack-driver, as far as I know. That’s why long-range hunters value .22s.
B.B.
B.B.,
Yes, 3/4″ at 35 yards is certainly not Whiscombe-acceptable territory. I am curious why on a day without wind (or indoors) the .25 pellets are not as accurate as .22 pellets if both are sent at the same speed, as obviously gravity works the same on both. I understand that .177 has an even flatter trajectory than .22, but we are not talking here about flatness of trajectory (which can be compensated for). I am guessing that .25 innacuracy must have to do with surface area rather than weight (as there are some very heavy .22 pellets which are as accurate as .22 pellets weighing 2/3 as much), but if that is so then one would expect that large bore airguns (e.g., Barnes) would be even more innacurate than .25s. I hope you can explain further, especially if this has something to do with ballistic coeffecients. Thank you. – Dr. G.
B.B.,
Do you by any chance know the Bore and Stroke of this monster? Seems like I heard 1-3/16″ for the bore somewhere. (Your book, maybe?)I know the spring is 39 coils of .148 wire with about a .555 I.D. I’m curious what volume it takes to get 29 foot pounds into a pellet.
Thanks,
Pestbgone
Dr G and BB,
.25 cal accuracy
Maybe imbalances in the skirt at the larger radius has more of an effect? The big bores shoot solid bullets which must be inherently less suseptible to such rotaional imbalances.
Just a guess.
Pestbgone
B.B
This mod on a patriot is just what Ive been waiting for.I dont own one yet.Im waiting on Pyramyd to get some in.Do you know the cost of the mod.Also does pyramyd offer trigger jobs on this rifle.Do you think a leapers 3-9×40 TS could take the abuse a patriot will give.Thanks
Scottdog
BB
In many of your reviews, you name 22 cal. JSB exact domed pellets as being the best. Pyramyd sells this pellet in two weights- 15.9 gr.(jumbo) and 14.3 gr. (jumbo express). Why the grain and a half weight difference? Which do you prefer? Why? Thanks. JR
Mech,
I also watch Nova, Nat Geo, Discovery and all such type of shows.
I would certainly like to see the shoe about air guns and will go to their site to see if I can get a Copy.
Thanks for the info,
BobC
I can attest that the Webley in .25 is far, far less accurate than a good quality .22 air rifle. With my Diana 48, I could hit objects at distances that would be impossible to consistently hit with my Webley. With the Webley, there is a lot of guessing—-hold high? hold low?—and inherent frustration about missed shots. Yesterday, I missed a feral rooster at about 40 yards, and I put the cross hairs just over him to try and compensate for pellet drop with the Kodiak. I know I would have hit him with the Diana 48.
I’m going out again today, though, and I might just get lucky with Webley shot placement. My point is, though, that a rifle shoudn’t require luck for accurate shot placement. Tom
when you state flaring of the skirt into the rifling si it a bad thing? my gamo 1250 flares out the skirts of my jsb’s all the way to the bottom of the dome. the pellet looks squashed. Is this something I don’t want happening to my pellets?
Robert1250
B.B.,
Pyramyd AIR sells this “LaserLyte Laser Bore Sighter” for $60, and I am curious if you have used this tool before. I often sight in my guns in my backyard and would like to reduce any noise if I can, so this tool seems to be a good solution…or not? Thanks.
Alan
BB,
I have a feeling this question is one of those that everybody other than myself already knows.
I was reading one of your old blogs about FT where you mentioned that some shooters put white tape along the outside of their parallax adjustment wheels and write actual distance.
I’m wondering how this is used. Do you have a known distance, then adjust that on your wheel based on the info you entered on your tape. Or do you look through your scope, adjust the wheel until the target is in focus, then read the distance off your wheel?
If that can be done, could I put trajectories on my wheel instead? Basically, set up targets at five yard intervals, note how many inches I’m high/low, enter that on my wheel. Then, when once I’m in the field, focus my scope and read the trajectory adjustment off my wheel.
I’m hoping that made sense…
Marc
B.B.
So, you came through with your huge surprise and the iguana too–the Air Force target rifle. Thanks. They are not seriously offering the target rifle in pink, are they?
For the huge surprise, are gas spring conversions going to be available as an option for a variety of spring guns or just the Whisper and maybe Patriot? That might affect the size of the universe filled by this surprise.
For those interested in the Gamo Whisper, you might consider a Charlie Da Tuna Super or Turbo Tune with installation of the GRT III trigger included. My sense is that his tuning jobs are as good as his trigger, so you would have a super rifle–should be quieter too.
I have a great idea! B.B., you mentioned some time ago that there was no beginner’s guide to airgunning. Well, why don’t you write one in the form of one of those Complete Idiot’s Guides. I have great respect for that material notwithstanding the title. My Dad is a retired literature professor who is making use of their guide to the Bible in reading that book and says it’s great. I’m getting a decent understanding of statistics just from reading the relevant guide. If airgunning is on the rise as I hear, there must be a lot of people interested, and you may not have to repeat yourself on the blog for newcomers. You probably have the book already written in this blog anyway. The chapters could be: history, powerplants, tuning, ammo, shooting technique…. You’ll make a killing….
Matt61
i have a kodiak, .22 and am glad i got that cal. even though beeman pushes the .25. but this thing messes up every scope i have tried to put on it i even put a bushnell 4200 on it and it was fine for a while, then became inconsistant, i than bought a peep sight and things got a lot better. agree with what bb said about pellet fit, i also exprmented with pellet fit and it is a huge difference in this gun. mine does very well with cp’s, and fts’s. bb do you think that they will just sell a strut, and what brand is it. i have tools to take the gun apart safely. witch it has a lot of preload. also the stroke is about 4.5 inches from what i can measure
SavageSam,
I don’t have any experience with the RX2, so I really can’t compare it to the Kodiak. My comparison is to a Kodiak with a steel mainspring.
B,B.
Dr. G.,
I think .25 caliber inaccuracy at distance has to do with the ammo. Barnes shoots bullets in his .25s, for the most part. But pellet makers just don’t put the effort into making the .25s that they put into the .22s and smaller calibers. At least that’s what I think.
B.B.
Pestbgone,
I don’t have the internal dimensions for you, but I sense that it’s time for you to read the Cardew book “The Airgun From Trigger To Target.” It tells you what a small fraction of energy is put into the pellet by the spring gun powerplant. And then only with the optimum set of specifications.
B.B.
Scottdog,
Pyramyd should have that price posted pretty soon. Any Leapers with a TS rating should take the Kodiak’s recoil.
B.B.
JR,
The weight differences are just to suit different guns. I usually pick the heavier one, but the light one is a good backup.
They do the same thing in .177.
B.B.
Robert,
You have to look at accuracy. If you have it, fine. But if not, a deformed pellet could be the culprit.
B.B.
Alan,
I have the Laserlyte sitting on my desk to test. It’s simply a matter of time.
B.B.
Marc,
FT shooters measure pellet drop in one-yard increments. They actually mark off the yards to individual targets and test the guns on each of them. Some do it in three-yard increments, but five yards is too much for good accuracy.
There are those who develop tables for pellet drop, but they are less successful. I know because I shot that way for three years before switching to adjusting the scope for every shot.
B.B.
Matt61,
Good guesses but you didn’t go far enough.
B.B.
Kodiak strut,
At the present time the plan is to not sell just the gas spring.
B.B.
HELP ME BB!
Price isn’t a concern, nor is the 1 month waiting period until this rifle becomes available. I’m trying to decide between this rifle, and the new B.J. Super Streak. I’m really only interested in the .22 cal for both guns as I already own a .25 and a .177.
I’m tough on my guns, I drop ’em, they get rained/snowed on a lot, they freeze on the cold days and heat up on the hot ones. Seriously, I’m abusive in the field, but I clean my guns frequently, and case ’em always; but I need something durable, and fast (fast as I can get, as I NEED the flattest trajectory). Most of all I need accuracy.
1) Do ALL the new Patriots (released 1/25/08) offer this new gas system?
2) Will it affect advertised velocity?
3) Is the barrel on the Patriot choked?
4) Which of the 2 guns would you expect to offer the faster muzzle velocity?
5) What do you the Patriot is capable of in .22 as far as velocity?
6) Which do you think would be more durable?
It stands to reason based on price alone that Webley is the better gun here, as you USUALLY do get what you pay for. I’m just looking for something for bunny’s out to about 40 yards or so, and like I said it needs to be durable.
7) Can I add a sling to this gun using swivels, or can I not drill into it?
8) Finally, how’s the trigger on this gun?
Please help me out, been reading your blog for a while now, and it’s led me to 3 new air guns with no regrets, all based on your reports and the ensuing questions you answered for me. Help me make it 4 🙂 I know this is a long post, and I’m sure you’re uber busy, so if you can’t reply here please reply by email to: interactivewebdesign@gmail.com
Thanks in advance B.B., happy holidays, and KEEP EDUCATING US!
Most Sincerely,
Matt Putly
This goes to the man asking about the laserlyte bore sight, I have it andI use it to get the crosshairs centered with the bore line of sight then I make final adjustments with the particular pellet I’m going to be using.
And this gas ram for the patriot has tipped my scale over to it more than a talon ss, I understand their are different powerplants but I love springers so much I love the challenge of getting accurate with a particular air rifle thanks B.B!
Robert 1250
Matt:
1) No.
2) Velocity seems the same
3) I don’t think so
4) The Patriot
5) 24-26 foot pounds
6) The Patriot. The Super Streak stock looks not to be as robust.
7) You can drill into the stock and mount the front sling swivel to the barrel. The Patriot’s strong barrel latch is good for this.
8) It’s a sporting trigger 3.5-5 lbs and some creep. Not bad.
B.B.
B.B.,
That was fast, thanks again. If you ever need a website, or even just a webpage, free of charge, please contact me as my way of saying thanks, email provided above. Specialize in Flash media, but i can do it all, and better than most. Sincerely, I’d love to show my appreciation for all your help!
Most Sincerely,
Matt Putly
Matt,
I’m glad I could help. Please remember that was my opinion and I don’t know everything. I focused on the ruggedness aspect most.
B.B.
BB,
I own an Xocet, do ya think a gas spring will be available for it any time in the future? I surmise the patriot gas spring would not fit in an Xocet, is this correct?
SS
BB –
Have you ever reviewed a Quackenbush rifle on this blog? With the difficulty in getting them I could understand why it would be of limited usefulness, but interesting nonetheless. I saw a review you wrote in 2005 but didn’t know if that was your rifle or how the rifles may hold up over time.
Ozark
Do you know if there are any gas ram conversions for an Rws 350? I own one and I love it as a springer but the gas systems seem incredibly cool.
P.S Does the whisper gas ram fit on a shadow 1000?
B.B.,
Great write up B.B., loved this one. Was reading another good write up about the Benji. Crosman calling it a “Streak” seems like a ploy though. Anyways, I was reading something you wrote about guns made in China and thought I’d paste it here. Makes me think twice about getting this gun ’till it’s been thouroughly reviewed.
Quote:
“China has a reputation for two bad things. 1. They usually don’t make accurate barrels. They can make them, but most of the time they don’t. 2. They do not use seals of the proper durometer rating. Read that as Leakers!”
Anyways, whats your opinion on the Theoben Eliminator? Thinking of getting one in a .22 caliber. Do you know, with those built in dampas, can I mount a Leapers 4-16 X56 on that? 30mm tube. Thanks!
Rob in CO
Hi BB and All,
All this talk of gas rams has set my universe on it’s side. So many possibilities, so little money and time…. It would be really nice if Pyramyd would carry conversions for us DYI guys. Thanks for the great news this week and always!
Still blasting away with my 513M. blew out the backside of my 2X 8 box stuffed with rags. Time to reline the back and finally add some duct seal. I cleaned out Crum Electric a couple of months ago for all 16 #’s of their duct seal. I think it cost me about 20 something bucks. If you’re in the Denver area and need some, I’m sure they’re restocked by now.
/Shooter
robcolo,
I just went through that exact decision and ended up deciding against it as it has a rough firing behavior and a mushy trigger that is not so crisp.
To you this is second hand information. I was on the phone about to order one when i asked his personal opinion of the gun. Here i am about to spend $1500 on this thing and a scope, and he advised me against it.
This was when talking to Steve with Pomona airguns. He is so decent to do that. He knows ill be back anyway (lets see what i get this holiday season LOL). He is a pro when working with triggers, so you could have that improved there, but it would still be a gun that throws a punch when you pull the trigger (it must be if someone wouldn’t let me buy it at their benefit).
curios to see what bb says!
-sumo
robcolo,
Concerning the Theoben Eliminator, I owned one as a Beeman Crow Magnum. Same gun with different stock (no schnabble). I tested it EXTENSIVELY for The Airgun Letter over the course of several years and could never get it to shoot accurately in .25 caliber.
Then I had it rebarreled to .20 and tested it again. At the time there was a LOT of buzz on the internet about what a wonderful gun it was in .20 caliber. Well, I found that to be untrue. It was okay but not fabulous, and certainly not worth the $1,200 I had invested in it.
However, I did learn some important things. First, you never want to run that gun at full power. If you back it off in pressure until the cocking effort is about 45 lbs. instead of 60, it becomes much smoother. Theoben uses a heavy piston that really thumps when the gun fires.
Second, Ben Taylor, the Ben in Theoben, told me to clean the bore of the rifle with JB Paste. He is the guy who opened my eyes to that stuff. He said the Crosman Premiers will lead the bore and must be cleaned out that way.
After cleaning the rifle I shot the first good long-range group I had ever shot with it. Perhaps the .25-caliber barrel would have been accurate, as well, if I had cleaned it.
If you want an Eliminator, get it. But I’m telling you now that some people love them while others hate them.
On the subject of the trigger I must disagree with what Sumo was told. I found the Theoben trigger on my Crow Magnum to be the best, most positive trigger of any breakbarrel air rifle I have ever tested. It was light and razor-sharp. I also tested a second Crow Magnum that one of my newsletter readers sent me to test. His trigger was equally light and crisp.
B.B.
SS,
I think the Xocet gas spring may take some time. The rifle was never sold in great numbers and I’m pretty sure the Patriot spring won’t fit it (but I will check for you).
Don’t give up hope, though. I have been wrong about several things relating to these new gas springs.
B.B.
Ozark,
I don’t think I’ve reviewed any Quackenbush air rifles for this blog. I’m assuming you mean Dennis Quackenbush and not H. M. Quackenbush, whose airguns date back to the 1870s?
B.B.
RWS350,
No gas spring for the Diana 350 Magnum yet.
Yes, I do believe the Whisper gas spring also fits the Shadow 1000. That’s Ramification number two that I hinted at in the last report.
B.B.
B.B.
I read the blog everyday so I will be looking forward to any new information on the gas spring for the Xocet. I would be ideal if I could drop the patriot gas spring into the Xocet, but then I would have to worry about how the extra power will affect the rest of the rifle. It’s great to have choices!
SS
Hi bb.
Thank you for the wonderful advise. I own a Theoben Eliminator .22 and absolutely love it. I think there is much to learn about it before I am pleased with my shooting, but I keep trying. Are you going to test it as a magnum “spring” airgun? I am looking forward to it. Thank you,
Yorgos.
Yorgos,
I hadn’t planned on testing the Eliminator, but if enough people want, I could. I owned a Crow Magnum (exact same rifle in a different stock) for five years and tested it thoroughly.
B.B.
I would love to see a test of the real magnum springers. Especially with some of the new heavyweight pellets that are now availabla. Can’t wait!Do it BB!