by B.B. Pelletier
The new AirForce CO2 adapter is an exclusive at Pyramyd AIR.
I have the best job in the world, because when new stuff comes out, I get to test it. Today we’re going to take a look at the new CO2 adapter for AirForce air rifles. They’ll be available exclusively from Pyramyd AIR either tomorrow or the first of next week.
What it does
This adapter lets you operate any AirForce air rifle – the Talon, Talon SS and the Condor – on CO2. The CO2 is contained in a large tank that replaces the AirForce air reservoir and also serves as the butt of the rifle. The AirForce adapter is long enough to make up for the short length of a CO2 tank, so the pull of the rifle remains the same. You can use any standard paintball tank with this adapter, and Pyramyd AIR sells both 12-oz. and 20-oz. tanks for this purpose. These tanks come filled with CO2 and ready to use. They also sell unfilled 12-oz. and 20-oz. tanks. Plus, they offer combos of filled tanks and adapters (12-oz., 20-oz.).
This is the adapter connected to a 20-oz. tank.
Let’s examine the adapter
This is not just a simple coupling! It contains an entire Condor valve! So, the cost for this adapter is higher than for the Logun S-16 adapter. Because CO2 operates at one-third the pressure of the normal AirForce air tank fill, all AirForce models can use this adapter. Even though the Condor valve is huge compared to a standard valve, the lower pressure lets the two standard rifles use it, too.
Installing the adapter
Connect the adapter to the CO2 tank by simply screwing them together. I put three drops of Crosman Pellgunoil inside the adapter before I put the parts together so it will get blown into the valve when the gas starts flowing. As the connection nears completion, the adapter opens the tank’s valve, filling the adapter with CO2 gas. That makes the final few turns harder, because now there’s 850 psi pressing on the tank’s O-ring. Keep turning the tank until it stops.
After the adapter is on the tank, attach the tank to the rifle the same as you would a standard reservoir. The adapter is made of blued steel and looks like it will last a long time. There is nothing else to do but shoot! The power wheel doesn’t work as well on CO2 as on air, but there is a small range of adjustability.
Power
CO2 is a lower pressure gas than the air used by AirForce airguns. Also, the CO2 gas molecule is much larger than the atoms of gases in air. So, the power is lower when operating on CO2. Here’s what to expect from .22 caliber rifles at a temperature of 85 degrees F:
Talon SS: 610 f.p.s. on high power/495 f.p.s. on low power
Talon: 650 f.p.s. on high power/475 f.p.s. on low power
Condor: 734 f.p.s. on high power/685 f.p.s. on low power
In case you aren’t that familiar with CO2 in .22 caliber rifles, the Condor is shooting about as fast as rifles ever do. Only a few wide-open Philippine guns are faster, and they’re not accurate. The Talon SS on high power is right where the Benjamin AS392T is.
Number of shots per CO2 tank
Oh my gosh! This is where it gets good. CO2 gets many TIMES more shots per fill than air. Where a Talon SS gets 35 powerful shots per air reservoir. With a 20-oz. CO2 tank, the number climbs to over 1,000. Pyramyd AIR tested the Logun S-16s and got over 1,300 shots on a 20-oz. tank before they got tired of testing. Over 1000 shots is a very conservative estimate! A 12-oz. tank delivers fewer shots, of course, but the number is still in the high hundreds.
On Monday, I’ll tell you the rest!
Wow, for CO2, the velocity out of the condor is insane!
At ~$130 for the adapter plus a 20oz tank, that would definitely be worth the buy to a condor owner, IMO.
BB, do you think CO2 would be safe for and produce enough pressure to cycle the action on an FX Revolution? Looking at the numbers, it seems ok.
Seeing these CO2 adapters for good PCPs is starting to attract my interest.
If they came out with a CO2 adapter for my FX Revolution, I’d strongly consider buying one. While ~60 shots/fill is plenty for hunting, in a plinking scenario with a semi-automatic, it goes FAST. While a thousand or so shots would be awesome!
Any numbers estimates for .177?
I’ve been looking for a way to get many shots at a reasonable power for plinking out of my SS. So far, I have it set up for 55 shots at around 850fps using CPL’s, but thats about as good as I can do with it.
Sounds like this CO2 adapter might be a viable option.
craigjwjr,
Yes, the Condor’s perfornance is impressive. But remember that the temperature was 85 degrees.
As for the FX Revolution, have they got it sorted out, yet? Last I heard the importer was rebuilding every rifle because all their seals failed.
I don’t know if CO2 would work the action, but I believe it would not.
B.B.
The .177 numbers are here on the Pyramyd website. Condor 850, Talon 775 and Talon SS 700.
B.B.
B.B. Do you think that my SS seals/o-rings might be damaged by CO2? After all, it was designed to be high pressure air operated.
This adaptor is made by AirForce. I don’t think they would make something that would hurt their gun.
Also, there are only two O-rings in the bolt of your SS. All the rest of the seals are in the valve, which the adaptor replaces.
B.B.
Are there any negative effects from leaving a full CO2 tank attached to the gun for long periods of time? Same question goes for the air tank. I’ll be purchasing the Talon and probably be shooting a little at a time, so the tank will remain full for long periods of time.
Hey BB
Is there a post just about spring gun maintnance (cleaning stocks, barrels, champers, proper lubricants, ECT.
As always I love your input, Matt
Hey guys, quick question – really had no better place to ask..
When shooting up at an angle, how is accuracy effected? I tried taking out some pigeons but couldn’t! I thought I had zeroed in my scope for about the same distance, but maybe it was just operator error. I dono.. If there IS some undesired effect to shooting at angles, please explain. It’d be much appreciated.
~Air Gunner
B.B. Are there any other adjustments necessary (like top hat) to start shooting with CO2?
BB I have a few questions. Is the tophat exterior dimensions the same for a condor as the talons? It sounded like there is only one adaptor.
If there is only one adaptor is the incresed speed due to barrel length or from the heavier condor hammer?
I
Air gunner,
YES, depending on the angle you will not shoot the actual distance to the target but instead you’ll try to decide the degree of upward (or downward) angle then decide how much to adjust. The steeper the angle the less time gravity will have to effect the pellet drop compaired to a flat horizantal shot.
check this link for the math. that unit is way over priced. But the info is good.
http://www.snipertools.com/aci.htm
B.B. Off subject: Did you know that a “pickle” (in some airgun parlance) is a silencer? I just found out after many years thinking that I knew all relevant airgun terms!
Rob,
I have left the tank filled on my Talon SS for many years. I have owned CO2 guns that have been left filled for DECADES! Only when you empty the tanks do you invite dirt to get into the valve. Filled is the only way to store a bulk-filled or PCP{ airgun.
B.B.
Matt,
Try the 13-part series Spring Gun Tune
/blog/2006/08/spring-gun-tune-part-13-range-testing-the-r1-we-tuned/
B.B.
Air Gunner,
Turtle got the uphill question right, but I will also blog it for you.
Turtle,
The top hats dimentions are all the same. The adaptor works on all AirForce guns.
NO ADJUSTMENT REQUIRED! I shout because that is the LAST thing we want people to do! CO2 works on dwell time, and the top hat is set to Condor specs.
The increased speed is due to BOTH the longer barrel and, in the case of the Condor, to the powerplant.
As for pickle, it’s a name they made up. Like moderator, can or anything else.
B.B.
Don,
NO ADJUSTMENTS. JUST SHOOT.
B.B.
B.B–Scott again–looking at the leapers4x16–will that give me enough magnification to clearly see the center of the bullseye at 50yrds-also wouls I be able to leave my c mount in place an just attach this scope. not famaliar with the terminology what would I be loosing by not going with the other leapers-thanks again
sorry B.B. meant 6×24–Scott
Hi BB!
Can you address the last post at
/blog/2005/8/just-like-a-real-gun/
?
Thanks!
Scott,
You would be able to see the bullseyes at 50 yards with a 12-power scope, which is what I have on my Whiscombe. You saw what it did?
Yes, you can leave your C-mount in place and mount the scope to it.
I don’t think you will be missing anything important if you get a 6-24 scope. Each scope has different features and you have to choose the ones you want. The 6-24 doesn’t have a sidewheel parallax adjustment, but if you’re not going to shoot field target with the rifle, you don’t need it.
B.B.
On the topic of scoping, what are some solutions to protecting the dovetailing of a rifle from marring by scope mounts?
DLB,
If you use aluminum mounts, you lessen the chances of marking. Steel mounts sould never be slid along the dovetails. They should be fixed in position before tightening, and after loosening, they should be taken straight off the gun.
That will help prevent marking the gun, but care is always the best tool.
B.B.
aluminum makes sense, thanks BB.
BB,
Very interesting! I have a Talon SS and am wondering about what results I could expect with a longer barrel in .22 and this new CO2 option? It gets plenty hot during the summer here in California and I’m thinking this could be an ideal set up for a weekend camping trip. Also, I’ve got a 12″ .177 barrel and would like to know what kind of performance I might expect? The options just keep growing for this gun. Now I need to replace my scope with something good for hunting and plinking at various distances…
Thanks, Dale
Dale,
The 24″ barrel will give you a lot more velocity, but probably not as much as the Condor. Give it a try!
I would expect the .177 to shoot a little faster than the .22. Perhaps 650?
The Bug Buster 2 is a great plinking scope.
B.B.
Hi,
I noticed you said you “put three drops of Crosman Pellgunoil inside the adapter……” when using CO2 with Airforce gun. However, according to Pyramyd web site on the Crosman Pellgunoil that “do NOT use in precharged pneumatic (PCP) airguns!……”
Since Airforce gun can be swtiched from using CO?2 to compressed air, wouldn’t the adding of pellgunoil creating problem when switching from CO2 to compressed air?
You DO NOT “switch from CO2 to compressed air” when using this adaptor. This adaptor only connects the rifle to a paintball tank, which should NEVER be used for compressed air. The regular compressed air tank that comes with the AirForce gun is not filled with CO2.
That is what the subject of this report was all about. The text repeats that theme numerous times.
Was that not clear?
B.B.
Hi,
I totally understand your posting. (And thinks for all the very informed discussions.) The CO2 adaptor is only used for the CO2 tank. The compressed air tank has its own valve. The two things are completely separate.
My question was won’t some amount of Pellgunoil be blown into the beach of the gun therefore creating issues with the gun—per the comment seen on the Pyramyd site?
Yes, the Pellgunoil will be blown into the breech, but that’s not a problem. The problem is inside the high-pressure air tank. Nothing from the breech can enter the tank unless it is empty.
B.B.
B.B.,
How do I disconnect the CO2 bottle from the CO2 adapter when the bottle is not empty? I tried it last night and I ended up losing all the CO2 in a few seconds – as I twisted loose the adapter and the bottle, all the CO2 just burst out. Thanks.
Alan
Alan,
That should not have happened. When you unscrew the adaptor the Schrader valve in the CO2 paintball tank should seal it quickly. Maybe rap the Schrader pin with a rubber hammer a few times.
But why did you disconnect the adaptor? Were you going to use the CO2 for something else?
Of course an AirSource cartridge cannot be disconnected at any time – only a paintball tank.
B.B.
B.B.,
I was trying to disconnect the adapter from the bottle for nothing but my curiosity since the gun, the adapter and the bottle are all new from Pyramyd and I am new to AirForce guns.
When I twisted the CO2 adapter and the 12oz CO2 bottle, all the CO2 burst out from the side of the CO2 adapter, not from the joint between the adapter and the bottle. However, the pressurized gas busted the O-ring on the paintball bottle and I got a minor CO2 burn on my hand. I’d assume that hole where the gas comes out is some kind of safety valve on the adapter, isn’t that? So what happened? What did I do wrong? Shall the adapter stay on the gun while the bottle is being disconnected? Someone told me I should turn slow and do some dry-fire when turning the bottle.
The refill of CO2 is cheap. It runs only about $2.50 in my local paintball shop. I may give it another try. Thanks.
You have a blown burst disk. Do not attempt to refill the tank.
The adaptor has to be sent back to Pyramyd AIR for an exchange. The burst disk is installed at the factory and must be torqued and tested with very special equipment. It isn’t a job you can do.
B.B.
B.B.,
But I already did. I took the empty paintball tank to my local shop and got it refilled yesterday. I put it back to the gun and everything shot just fine. Do I still need for the disk repair? Thanks.
Alan
Alan,
The description you gave me was the gas was coming out the side of the adaptor – not at the joint. That would be a burst disk.
To do what you have done (filled the tank and installed it without a leak) tells me the burst disk is okay and you had loosened the tank from the adaptor – blowing the o-ring out of its seat. That is self-correcting, but don’t ever unscrew those two things again. You will tear the o-ring.
B.B.
B.B.,
I have another CO2 related “strange” problem – sometimes the first shot of the day seems so weak and slow that you can literally see the pellet flying. Then the immediate 2nd shot and everything thereafter are just fine. It seems the gun needs a wake-up shot or something. I am from Southern California, it’s warm down here so the weather is not an issue. I usually let the gun rest flat on the table. What’s causing the lousy 1st shot?
Alan
Alan,
That is characteristic of all gas and pneumatic guns. They all need a wake-up shot.
Gun by gun the amount of difference in the first shot and the rest is greater or less, but they all demonstrate the characteristic to some extent.
With firearms there is a parallel. The first shot from a cold barrel usually goes wide of the group fired by the next five.
Spring piston guns will often do this as well, biut it takes a chronograph to detect it.
After a power adjustment with a PCP you will often see the first shot lag behind the rest.
B.B.
B.B.,
Thanks for the help. I have another CO2 question – I did some Chrony test on my .22 Talon SS with different power settings and I noticed the large Extreme Spread (ES) or Standard Deviation (SD) among all the shots. These are my test results:
.22 Talon SS with 12oz CO2 + JSB Exact
Power Level 10: 562.7 – 559.6 – 553.4 – 551.1 – 552.6 – 547.6 – 549.0 – 546.0 – 547.1 – 542.1
Lo = 542.1 Hi = 562.7 Av = 551.1 Es = 20.54 Sd = 6
Power Level 7: 527.1 – 508.5 – 505.4 – 497.0 – 500.5 – 481.2 – 481.8 – 481.1 – 480.1 – 489.0
Lo = 480.1 Hi = 527.1 Av = 495.2 Es = 46.98 Sd = 15
Power Level 2: 373.7 – 358.3 – 381.1 – 389.1 – 362.2 – 351.0 – 349.1 – 361.2 – 367.1 – 346.4
Lo = 346.4 Hi = 389.1 Av = 363.9 Es = 42.6 Sd = 14
The average time between shot is about minimum 7 – 10 seconds.
I also have the result for my RWS850 that I did a while back.
.22 RWS 850 with 88-gram AirSouce + RWS Superdome
631.0 – 630.2 – 630.1 – 629.0 – 629.8 – 630.3 – 627.5 – 630.7 – 628.1 – 627.1
Lo = 627.1 Hi = 631.0 Av = 629.4 Es = 3.97 Sd = 1.00
Can you explain why my Talon SS has such large spread compared to the 850?
Alan
Alan,
That’s easy – your 850 is set up for CO2 and doesn’t have adjustable power. With CO2, the gun only wants to be run on high power. The gas has large molecules that don’t flow as easily as the atoms in air – hence it needs a longer time to flow.
From your numbers it looks like your top hat isn’t adjusted all the way out. Don’t do it unless you plan on shooting only CO2 in the gun.
The 850 is set up for CO2, alone. The SS has been adapted from air to CO2 – which is never as efficient.
B.B.
BB,
I finally got some evidence indicating why I need to dry-fire a whole bunch of shots in the morning to get CO2 running.
I measure the gap between the bottom of the tophat and the top of the valve in the night before going to sleep. It reads 0.1140″ using a feeler gauge. I also verify that the gun shoots “normal”. The next morning, approximately 6 hours later, I measure the gap again, now it is at 0.1465″ indicating that the valve stem has slowly drifted out overnight. Now my gun shoots like there is no CO2 at all. So I remove the CO2 adapter with 12oz CO2 tank attached, use a little force to push the valve stem in. I can actually feel the valve stem just move in a little bit. Put eveything back to the gun, the gun shoots normal again.
So, the question is – Is this a defect in the valve or is it “normal”? This gun and CO2 adapter package is already the 2nd one I got. The first one had the same problem, so I shipped it back to PA and got the exact same setup from Compasseco. It’s a bit hard to believe that in both cases, the valves are all defected.
Alan
Alan,
I have never noticed what you describe, but I;m inclined to think it is normal. I think you have to chalk it up as a quirk.
B.B.
the gap problem might be caused
because the CO2 is cold
it would cause the metal to shrink
How does CO2 work in the cold? Sub freezing to 20 below zero cold? Especially when one leaves the rifles overnight in the truck?
Below 50 degrees F CO2 looses a lot of energy. The situation you describe would be disastrous. The gun would probably freeze while shooting.
B.B.
Cold CO2,
Unfortunately, CO2 is very temperature dependent and looses it's oomph rapidly as the temperature decreases. My rule of thumb was to only shoot my 1760SE when the outside temperature was 60F or above.
You can do things to mitigate that by heating the CO2 tank such as wrapping it in a heated sock like hunters use, but it's probably not worth the effort. Especially if you have and Air Force gun as they have HPA tanks that aren't affected much at low temperatures.