by Tom Gaylord
Before we start, there are two announcements. The first is the inclusion of customer reviews for products carried by Pyramyd AIR. You’ll find the review section on each page of a rifle or pistol. The second announcement is that a new podcast is up.
Something new
B.B. turned the blog over to me today because I have something very different for you. There is a new invention that hasn’t yet seen the light of day and Pyramyd AIR wants to know what YOU think about it.
Benjamin 392/397 is a classic multi-pump air rifle.
Imagine a Benjamin 392 or 397 multi pump pneumatic that has a maximum pump stroke effort of not more than 12 pounds! Sound impossible? Well it’s not. I have tried it and so has my wife. This gun really exists.
The inventor brought his idea to Pyramyd AIR owner Joshua Ungier to see what he thought. Josh was amazed. We set up a time in June when Edith and I would be at Pyramyd AIR to test the gun. I can tell you that it really works as I have said. As you pump the lever, the effort builds to the low maximum that it never exceeds. A young person can pump this gun with this modification installed.
The invention is an articulated pump linkage that multiplies the force of the pump handle through a variable pump linkage. He calls it a pump assist. We’ve seen a similar linkage on the IZH-46M single stroke pneumatic pistol, so the concept has already been proven, but this was the first time it had been applied to a Benjamin 392. The 392 allows up to 8 pump strokes, and each pump is harder than the last. After stroke five, the effort required on an unmodified gun becomes significant. The final pump stroke will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 33 lbs. With this modification, all the pump strokes feel exactly the same – light and easy, at one-third the effort.
Let me put that into perspective. You can probably lift a 20-pound sack over your head 100 times, but can you lift a 200 pound sack over your head 10 times? The effort is the same, but it doesn’t feel the same. Each pump stroke of the modified rifle is 12 lbs. The stock rifle pumps easy at first and gets hard toward the end. If you only want to put in three pumps, there’s no reason to get this mod. If you hunt with your rifle, there’s a very good reason to get it. Even the eighth pump stroke will only be 12 lbs.
I tested the new design against a box-stock 397 (the test rifle was also a .177), and the power was comparable between both rifles. So the question is this: Is anyone interested in an easy-to-pump Benjamin 392/397?
The cost
Since this modification has to be added to an already-built rifle, there is cost for both the parts and the labor. Would you be willing to pay around $270 for a new rifle with this modification? The gun’s warranty is voided by the work, however the aftermarket will probably be able to keep a 397/397 working for at least the next 50 years. Pyramyd AIR sells a new 392/397 for $139.95.
Can your old 392/397 be retrofitted?
Perhaps the more interesting question is whether an existing 392/397 can be retrofitted. If there is a demand for this modification, it might also be worthwhile to retrofit the existing guns. However, the cost to start this project is so high that no one wants to do it unless there is a proven demand.
I would get a new 392 modified this way, so I will be one customer. But I’ve already tested the gun, and know how it works. You haven’t, so Pyramyd AIR would like to hear what you think about the idea.
Please consider this proposal and tell us what you think. Your input will play a big part in making this decision. You have all weekend to weigh in.
With this mod installed, is there any change in muzzle velocity? Have you tested that particular aspect yet? JP
JP,
As Tom stated, the modified gun shot with the same velocity as the unmodified one.
A power modification is a separate issue that can be performed or not. In this case, not.
B.B.
Interesting would be a mass produced SSP that puts out 14 or more ft lbs of energy. The convenience and consistency of a springer’s one-stroke actuation, w/o the motion-induced accuracy issues inherent to springers. And, yes, I know there are engineering hurdles. I have trouble believing they are insurmountable. I just don’t get MSPs, not an attractive platform IMO (what’s the use in learning multiple ballistic curves to use one gun? and if you don’t plan to use it at various power levels – who wants to pump that many times?) so this modded Benji holds zero appeal. But, to a pumper fan who can’t handle a 33 pound final stroke, maybe this is a big deal? To each…
$270 Seems pretty steep. Thats darn close to twice the price for the same gun, with a voided warrenty to boot. Sounds a lot like government spending.
mac-1 does some nice mod’s that involve a lot of work and don’t cost nearly as much. And I very rarely need a full 8 pumps to get the job done any way.
Count me out. joe
What’s the chance of being able to just buy the kit and install it myself? Do you think Pyramyd would sell just the kit?
Bob
Bob,
I isn’t a kit. It requires several precision jigs for silver soldering.
B.B.
How does this affect the total number of pumps required to get full power?
Vince,
The number of pumps remains the same.
B.B.
Not really…. if it were a mod that one could install on their own at a reasonable cost, then sure.
My modded Benji puts out the same velocity with 4 pumps as an unmodded one does at 8, while giving me the option to pump more, though I seldom do.
Considering that there are many tuners out there that can modify these pumpers at a reasonable cost, I’d have to pass.
The trend that I’m seeing is that folks dont want easier pumping, they want less pumping. I’d think several pre-charge pumps with 2-3 pumps in between shots would draw more sales rather than 12 easy pumps per shot… I know that’d get my attention.
Rob in NC
For twice the price of the original gun, I can sweat a few times pushing that aweful (note sarcasm) 33 lbs. for the 8th stroke. Seriously, are the people shooting this gun 12 year old girls? If you have trouble moving 30+ lbs 5-6 times as an adult, maybe you should put down your gun and go to the gym. Or, for that price, I could get a B40, and RWS 34, or CFX Combo and have a much better gun for the money. After spending $270 on that modded gun, you still have a $140 gun that sometimes has quality issues, doesn’t like scopes, and shoots 750 fps.
That “and” between the B40 and RWS 34 should be an “an.” That would be an awesome deal, wouldn’t it!
I like the idea but I’d say if the two guns were marketed people would ignore the easy pumping and buy the $140 version. If you could convince Crosman to take the $140 version off the market you might have something.
Yes, I AM interested!
When I was younger, I enjoyed pumping up my guns. I felt I was keeping my physical conditioning while enjoying shooting the least expensive, yet most powerful airguns.
I’m 64 years old now. I no longer have the urge to maximize the limits of my life. I’m still cheap, and still prefer to provide my own propulsion power for shooting, but that fifth pump on my Benjamins is getting increasingly more difficult for me.
I’ve been investigating ways to make my pneumatic pumpers better suited for the shooting I do, primarily extended plinking sessions with an occasional shot at vermin.
A couple of “pre-charge” pumps with two or three pumps between shots is VERY attractive to me!
I’m interested in things which make my pumping more efficient: debouncers which keep pressure in the gun after the previous shot, extended and compound levers to give a better mechanical advantage, improved and beefed up levers and joints to defeat wobble and promote speed of pumping. The modification you write of is largely what I want, and I want it NOW!
The cost you project is roughly what I would spend on a new gun with the Mac 1 Steroid conversion and should be competitive with it. I must add that, since I seek out efficiency and durability at a price, I am surprised that Crosman has not arranged to incorporate such modifications in a next generation of pneumatics.
fflincher
Tom/BB,
Just to pick a nit, the effort to lift 100 pounds over one’s head is indeed 5X the effort to lift 20 pounds. The work is identical (more or less) to lift 20 pounds 100 times versus lifting 100 pounds 20 times.
Otherwise, the other improvement to these guns is a non-dumping valve so one only has to pump one or two strokes to restore velocity. I agree that $250 is excessive (even if justified) — better to buy a Logun Solo IMHO.
The idea sounds great, but the price doesn’t. I have a 392 and I think the only problem is the effort to pump it. A DIY kit would have been a great idea particularly for someone who lives out of the USA. Customs duties alone on the repairs would be prohibitive for me. If Benjamin Sheridan pulled the old model and introduced an easy pumping one maybe the price would come down?
ton
As readers of the above comments can clearly see, this inventor’s idea of offering an expensive modification of truly limited worth to a cheap air rifle has very limited appeal, and is being tossed out as ludicrous on several grounds. I am certain that after submitting my humble addition, others will offer additional reasons for not proceeding with this product to the next step.
HOWEVER, and much mor important, is that the idea of offering a hypothetical modification or product for reader feedback truly utilizes the power of this internet medium. Within a day or so you can glean specific feedback on products from motivated, influential air gunners, as well as helpful suggestions for future products.
For example, it is in part from scanning the internet over the past few years that producers have been influenced to begin offering for sale heavier .22 pellets (above 25 grains) and many more multi-shot air rifles.
So, even though this particular product idea is a stinker, please continue offering to us future ideas for evaluation. Somebody will come up with a gem before long, I am sure.
– Dr. G.
An extra $130 on top of $140… I think not. If the price were lower($50-$80), sure. Me being an 18 year old 200lb male, I can handle the pumping effort easy. While it would be nice to have pumping effort cut down by 2/3s, it isn’t that big of a deal.
Basically if the cost is:
$50: without hesitation
$80: Maybe
$100+: Not likely
I’m also curious as to how the modification works.
-Nate in MN
I think the usefulness of this modification depends upon what you are using your pumper for. I own two vintage pumpers, a Benjamin 310 (smooth bore) and an unmodified Sheridan with thumb safety. Although these are not target rifles, I use them mainly for target practice. Repeated pumping in the Florida humidity takes its toll. So, for me, a modification to reduce pumping effort would be practical. I agree with Nate though, the price is more than I’d be willing to pay.
To those who don’t like pumpers because they don’t shoot 1000 fps or more, I would like to say that there’s a certain satisfaction that comes from accurately shooting a gun for which you are the only source of power. I also shoot a break-barrel springer and have found that shooting the older pumpers accurately requires a certain technique also.
In my opinion, this idea is an excellent one. Despite the high cost, which puts it in a place with higher quality and more powerful airguns, I would think that this idea is one I have been looking for.
“Why, when you can purchase another airgun that is surely more accurate and powerful? You must be daft,” some might say. Multi-pumps have no potential for iffy velocity spreads like a new springer would, and PCPs have that high initial cost of air tanks, valves, adapters, pumps, etc.
Besides the pricing, how much power could you really need? Taking a raccoon at 50 yards is impressive, but when would you really need to? Those who live in urban environments(and there are quite a few of us) can encounter animals such as raccoons at distances as close as 7 yards(Also, 150 feet is a range at which you must be following it to an open range, so neighbors may see you running around with a rifle). Personally, I figure most(beginners) would not keep a PCP around(too high total cost for supplies), and springers require various techniques and many targets worth of shots to shoot effectively. The only two choices left in the price range are the RWS 850 AirMagnum, which reaches less power and is temperature dependant, and the modified Benjamin, which has no temp restrictions, and reaches 20-21 foot pounds with Kodiaks.
It all really comes down to convenience to the average consumer(don’t get me started on that trend). For the general shooter, such as those pest eliminators, this is a nice upgrade, and doesn’t affect accuracy, power, or the peep sight(if you have one) at all.
More serious airgunners could, as said, pick a more powerful gun that is more effective at range, and readily uses scopes, but, it’s a choice. Specifically YOUR choice.
Hope the upgrade passes,and that you tell us of more if it doesn’t,
14 in Fla
14 in Fla,
Correct except for the power of a 392 with Kodiaks. It’s more like 14 foot-pounds, give or take.
B.B.
Intriguing idea, but not for nearly double the price of the original. Others have pretty much echoed my thoughts.
As a 392 owner I might be tempted if it was a DIY mod, but I can’t see paying $270 for a modified 392 when I could get the original for $140.
Bill in San Diego
About a year ago I bought my first (and so far only) airgun – a Benjamin 392. I’ve been very happy with it – it was a great recommendation for a first gun. Easy to use, low maintenance, good value. For a 1st gun, I probably would not have gone for the modified one because of the higher price – a bit too steep for entry level. However, knowing what I do now, I have to say this sounds very interesting to me – I would love to retrofit my 392. I _can_ pump it all the way up, but I’d rather be shooting than pumping. Maybe another gun or type of gun would better suit me now, but I like my 392 and would be willing to fork out some dough for this. A price of $99 (or less) for an upgrade would probably be a done deal for me. If the cost was $130 (=$270-$140), well – that’s a tougher sell, but I would still be tempted.
BB.
Whats the difference between the 586-6 and the 686-6 that sell on Pyramydair. What advantages does the longer barrel on the 586-8 have?
thanks
Maly
Well, if you want a similar powerplant for TEN TIMES THE PRICE, take a look at:
I wonder if the same inventor showed up at Pyramid Air.
BB.
Im talking about S&W in co2
Maly
Maly,
The difference is the 586 is black and the 686 is silver.
A longer barrel makes the velocity increase and it’s easier to sight with greater precision, so it’s more accurate.
B.B.
How’s this for an idea…..
A powerline pumps easier than a Benji/Sheridan. Smaller diamiter pump housing.
A sleeve with O-rings to slide into the Benji to reduce pump chamber diamiter, along with a scaled down piston to approximate the size used on the Daisys.
You would have to pump more to get up the same pressure, but it sure would be easier.
twenty years too late
I would definitely be interested in buying a couple of the linkages as retrofits!
$2,850 for a rifle, no way.
He seems to suffer from what some restaurants suffer from, they spend to much on ingredients, resulting in very high prices = No one willing to buy it. He uses “Hawaiian Koa over walnut” well that is a must have feature don’t you see!
On the tech specs page he has this listed:
Barrel = .22 caliber Lothar-Walther, choked
Outer Barrel = 316 stainless steel
Receiver, Trim = 6061-T651 Aluminum
Pumping Linkage = 7075-T651 Aluminum
Pivot Points = 4130 Steel with bronze bearings
Bolt & Firing Hammer = 4130 Steel with bronze bearing
Differential Piston = 6061-T651 Aluminum
Air Spring Chamber = 203 Stainless Steel
Pumping Piston = Delron-Teflon Composite
Fasteners = 18-8 Stainless Steel
Standard Stock = Grade A Fancy French Walnut
Seals = 70 D Viton with Teflon back-up rings
Do you see my point? His rifles are ridiculas…
Ooo and it weighs 9.3 pounds (w/o scope)…
BB –
What causes certain pellets to group to the right or left?
As for high & low – I thought weight would be the determining factor, but here are my 10m results:
RWS Meister 14.3 – center
Kodiak 21.1 – high
JSB exact heavy 16 – very low
Beeman trophy 14.3 – center
Crosman accupell/premier 14.3 – low
As an aside – has anyone tried the Weihrauch Magnum .22 pellets?
Ozark
BB,
I’m a bit intrigued by someone’s comment: (9th or 10th comment) Joshua’s comment about the 392 not liking scopes and having quality issues. Is there a basis for these statements, or have there been some reported common problems with this rifle? JP
JP.
I read Joshua’s comment and I don’t understand the quality issues statement, either. For some reason, I have NEVER had a problem with a Benjamin multi-pump, but I do believe it when others say they have. However, I have also watched other people handle their airguns and know why those problems happen. The Benjamin 392/397 is just as reliable as any other airgun, as far as I know.
As for the rifle not liking scopes, it is not designed to accept a scope and what you have to do to mount one is excessive. Also, after the scope is mounted, the gun becomes more difficult to pump. I would never scope a 392/397.
B.B.
Ozark,
Pellets move left and right for a number of reasons, but a scope that is not in line with the bore is number one. The test for that is if the pellet shoots to one side at close range and to the other side farther away.
Regarding your high and low groups – what gun is shooting them? If it’s a springer, longer dwell time in the barrel causes slower pellets to shoot higher, just as in handguns, slower bullets usually group higher.
Try testing at 25 meters, if possible. At 10 meters, you are still dealing with huge parallax from the height of the scope above the bore.
B.B.
BB – it’s a diana 48. I would have thought that the pull of gravity would pull a slow bullet down more than a fast one – why does the increased dwell time raise the POI?
Thanks
Ozark
So, it’s the same number of pumps, but I would not be able to feel that the rifle is as charged as it can be and should stop pumping it. Since it will be so easy to pump, I will probably forget at some point how much air is left in the air rifle and overpump it. If I overpump it, I suppose I will blow the seals out.
Why would I want that?
Reduce the pump effort is good but what would be even better is to reduce the number of pumps and still get the power. I think cutting down the pumps to 3 or 4 and with the same power would be much better selling point. Anyways, just my 2 cents.
Ozark,
Thge reason it moves higer is it remains in the barrel longer to get more of the initial rearward recoil. Apparently no pellets stay in long enough to be affected by the forward recoil.
At 10 meters, it’s difficult to tell much of anything. The angle between the scope and barrel is too great.
B.B.
No, you won’t blow the seals out. You’ll just have a lower-powered shot. But counting to eight really isn’t that difficult.
B.B.
Hello,
A far less expensive way to make pumping a 382/397 easier, is to use a lighter spring to hold the check valve in place. The designers of this gun went on the cheap and used a single heavy spring to hold both the check(intake) valve and exhust valve in place. Just unscrew the valve assembly, place a light spring against the check valve then place a washer over the spring. There is a ledge ringing the inside of the assembly that washer will rest on. The original heavy spring goes back in to now hold the washer against the ledge and the exhaust valve shut. Screw together assembly and you’re done. It cost me a spring from a bic pen and a washer.
It sounds complicated but is insanely easy. The 392/397 are great guns to tinker with and are a true joy once the pumping is made easier. The toughest part is getting over your fear of ruining the gun, trust me you won’t. ..but even if you do you’ll only be out a hundred or so bucks.
Eight pumps on my shooter is probably as easy as Two on a stock rifle. …my apologies for the longwinded post, but I really love these pumpers.
As for the articulated pump lever. It sound like a good idea that’s been around for a while. I wouldn’t pay top dollar for it, but I would like to check one out.
-Cheers, I.B. McGinty
p.s. over pumping wont blow out the seals
Ozark,
Since BB is off for the weekend, I can answer the question regarding POI and dwell time.
Dwell time refers to the microsends that a projectile is moving down the barrel.
The reason that slower handgun bullets and spring airgun pellets tend to strike higher than faster ones is because of recoil.
Both the handgun and the spring airgun shoot around the 1,000 fps range, consequently both types of arms have a chance to start the muzzle jump before the projectile leaves their barrels.
As you stated, all projectiles will fall at the same rate, as per Galileo, but a projectile that leaves the muzzle more slowly in these guns will be given an unexpected elevation adjustment over a faster one.
Centerfire rifles don’t exhibit this phenomenom much – with the faster ones showing it the least – if at all because they are moving their projectiles usually well over 2,000 fps, and the muzzle has little opportunity to climb before the projectile leaves it.
I have noticed this interesting interior ballistics characteristic when shooting my .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk with full power handloads.
Sure enough, the heavy 300 grain Speer and Hornady slugs strike higher on the target than the lighter and faster 240 grain Sierras.
Also, in handguns especially, the heavier projectiles tend to induce more recoil and thus more muzzle jump, so the effect is magnified further, as the projectiles leave with even more upward angulation.
-Scott
Wouldn’t a mod that reduces the cocking force by 2/3 would allow me to mount a standard scope on my Benji and cock it by the pistol grip? I’ve read reports that these guns have excellent accuracy for their low cost.
$50 more, acceptable.
$70 more, i’d buy it, but with a grimace.
$100 more, i’m waiting for a sale.
Scope-mounter,
Yes, mounting a scope is one of the benefits of lightening the pump stroke. Then it isn’t as hard to hold the rifle by the pistol grip when you pump.
B.B.
If you want to mount a scope on your rifle and pump it by the pistol grip, then you can get a Daisy 22SG. Great scope, easy pumping, accurate, and under $100!!! And now you have two guns instead of one. I grew up shooting my dad’s Benjamin but my 22SG is tons of fun. And you can still feel your arm after plinking for several hours.
Peace,
Dave in NOLA
I think that this linkage has great potential for those of us who aren’t physically able to withstand long sessions of pumping a hard to pump rifle. For whatever reason, if a guy already owns the 392/7, and has an injury, arthritis, or has just lost strength to shoot it, it’s a good deal if it’ll let them enjoy their gun again. I do agree that the price needs to come down some though. Less that a hundred seems to be the ticket, with a kit available for around $50 (can’t imagine what parts would cost much more than that, especially if they’re mass produced.)
I’m intrigued by the ANA arms rifle. So much so, that I’m building my own hybrid between that and a Whiscomb (I can’t afford that much money either, but not everyone is a machinist/welder/mechanic like me either). I figure I can cancel out most of the recoil by adding a few grams to the rearward traveling piston. It’s not so much the material cost in his gun as the enormous amount of work involved in machining and fitting the parts. Even with the same material, cost could be reduced by setting up production on CNC machines. But that would defeat what he’s trying to do, which if you read the web pages, is create an heirloom that you can hand down generation to generation. Granted, 9+ pounds is a lot, but I’m sure that a few generations of refinements will shave off some of that unnecessary weight. Besides, look at the power. 30-40 ft/lbs. of energy!! AHH HA HA HA !!
Another /Dave- Shooter
BB.
I know its off-topic but i was wondering if you had any information about the AirForce Sport Air. it seems to be the perfect gun for me.
If it is not available yet, what other rifle would you suggest if i want.
Target shooting from 10 meters and beyond, ocasional pest control and i would prefer it to have open or apperture sights.
thanks
Michael
Michael.
AirForce makes pellet rifles. Why do I think what you are asking about is an airsoft gun?
I cannot find the gun you refer to.
Is AirForce the correct spelling?
B.B.
BB,
http://www.airforceairguns.com/sportair.html
-sumo
Sumo,
Thanks! I do know about this gun but it won’t be available for several months. They will show a prototype at the 2008 SHOT Show. They will also make the diopter rear sight that you see on the rifle.
This is an NRA sporter-class competition rifle. It will be the first truely American-made 10 meter rifle.
Now, Michael, what do you want to know that isn’t on the AirForce website?
B.B.
Tom
1. Count me in. (Can I use Edith’s “yes” vote if my wife catches wind of this:) The pumping is so tiring it is the main reason I do not shoot 392 more. I have trained my kids to shoot and is main reason they choose to shoot other of my airguns, even though they think looks cool.
2. This will remove the obstacle keeping me from getting a MAC1 tune.
Right out of box handling and putting to shoulder it had the same feel as putting on a well worn in sturdy pair of boots. At 10 meters w/iron sight three rounds in diameter of dime. Thats when I discovered the pumping. Have been looking for solution for years. Only thing kept from a MAC1 tune.
Here edited a little for space. Hope BB does not mind:)
“The Benjamin 392/397 – 60 years later!”
Let’s look at the latest rendition in a line of air rifles that had their beginnings more than 60 years ago. Where some products have been so vastly changed and cheapened over time, the Benjamin 392 remains a steadfast leader for very high quality. The 392 is the .22 caliber version of the gun, while the 397 is the .177. This gun is one that truly harkens back to “the good old days.” Even when Crosman bought Benjamin, they left the quality alone.
The 392/397 is an adult-sized air rifle, though not overly long or heavy. The pull (distance from the butt to the trigger) is proportioned for adult sizes, plus the pump effort requires some strength ((understatement-comment added)).
The stock is nicely sculpted in the classic American style that suits most shooters. The forearm has a very pronounced beavertail swelling where the hand grabs to pump the rifle. It would be cheaper to eliminate this swelling, but they keep it because it makes pumping easier.
You can’t do better than brass for a pneumatic barrel! It doesn’t rust when exposed to the condensation from every shot, and it can be made smoother than a steel barrel. Smoothness allows for good velocity and accuracy without a lot of after-rifling work.
How to make a great gun even better? Add a peep sight! One really nice upgrade is the Crosman 64 peep sight. ((great addition-comment added))
With the right pellets, I get 0.50″ groups at 60 feet!
I recommend Crosman Premiers and JSB Exact domed pellets for both calibers of this rifle. Pyramyd says you can expect 1/2″ groups at 33 feet, but my experience says you’ll get that out to 60 feet – if you do your job! This air rifle is definitely one that can train you to be a better shot.
Quality American airguns are still being made – affordably!
The bottom line with these two air rifles is that they’re out of the past, yet as modern as they have to be. If you appreciate quality American products, these two certainly fit the bill. I guess you can tell I’m a big fan of this air rifle! I hope owners of these guns will comment on how much they enjoy them.
by B.B. Pelletier
Tuesday, September 20, 2005
/blog/2005/9/the-benjamin-392397-60-years-later/
Ray
B.B.
I’m with a lot of these other guys. It’s a good idea, but the price is a little steep. For that you could get a springer that would be at least as powerful. The nice part about the 392 is the lower price.
Now, I have an off topic question. I’m the guy that bought the .300 remington ultra mag and was asking you questions about scope mounting. Well, I stuck the leapers on it, it holds up, everything was nice. But while sighting it in, the thing was going crazy. I would put two shots within 1″, then adjust, and it would be way off in the wrong direction. So when I looked at the gun, I noticed that through the process of shooting the scope had moved 4″ forward in the rings! Do you have any reccomendations that would help stop the scope moving? This thing kicks a lot, and I think that is the reason for scope movement. Should I just try and tighten the rings down harder, or am I missing something obvious I should be doing?
Thanks again.
Four inches! Yes, the sc ope must mot be tight enough in the rings.
Use the torquing pattern Tom Gaylord gives in this article:
/article/All_about_scopes_Part_2_February_2005/21/
and tighten them tight. Leapers rings have a non-skid pad inside the rings to prevent scope creep, but are you using Leapers rings? Are they 4-screw caps, at least? You need really good rings to stope that scope from moving because your large scope has a lot on inertia to overcome. The gun tries to recoil right out from underneath it.
B.B.
It’s not trying to move. It’s succeding. 😛
The rings came with the gun. It has a wierd top to it. The rings are actually screwed directly into the reciever. I think the rings are burris. They don’t have the non-skid stuff. Would it be possible to put something in there (I.E. tape) and make it not move? I’m pretty sure I had the rings about as tight as they would go. I’ll read up on that article and try that. Unfortunately I won’t be able to go to the range until next week probably so I won’t get to really test it. But if I could get a good way to mount it that would be great.
Thanks again.
Bit of an odd question, but as I’m working onward towards an airgun, I’m stuck on the stats of the tricked out 1377C option that I’ve set up. What is the length, width, and height of the 1399 Custom Shoulder Stock? The stats are to try to see if I can fit the 1377C(equipped with Reflex sight on 459MT), the stock, pellets and PellGunOil in one double pistol case(preferably a Birchwood Casey Preservation Handgun case, 16 x 9).
Thanks for all the help,
14 in Fla
Nice idea but way too much money.
You would have to be able to sell it for no more than perhaps 25 to 30 percent above the price of the standard model for most folks to go for it. You can but a good spring/air that isn’t hard to cock
for less and you only have to do it once per shot.
Scott & BB – thanks for the info on dwell time and POI. Is it also dwell time that is responsible for some pellets shooting left or right of center? I’m shooting a diana 48 springer and wrote previously about a torquey recoil, rather than a simple straight forward/back. I would imagine the torque & dwell combo would cause a left / right drift.
Thanks again,
Ozark
Scope slip,
When you have a problem with rings that come with a gun the people to ask are the ones who sold the gun. There may be non-skid scope tape avail;able, but I don’t know what it is. It has to be very thin to fit between the rings and the scope tube.
Once again, ask your dealer. They are responsible for making your setup work. My only comment is that the Leapers 8-32 scope is out of profile for your rifle. It’s too heavy and has too much inertia for the recoil moment of your rifle.
B.B.
Not worth that much money. For a youngster, the pumping effort is a good muscle builder. An adult should be in good enough shape to pump up the gun. If not, get a co2.
14 in Fla,
Your question should be directed to Crosman. This blog isn’t run by Pyramyd AIR, and I do not have a warehouse of parts to go measure. I test the guns that Pyramyd AIR is kind enough to send me.
B.B.
Qzark,
The torqueing effect of your gun comes too late in the firing cycle to affect the sideways spread of your groups.
I really do believe it’s caused by a scope that’s not in line with the bore. Please read this posting:
/blog/2005/3/what-causes-scope-shift/
I am going to blog this problem, because you aren’t the only person who has it. This week.
B.B.
BB.
You can find the Air Force Sport Air At:http://www.airforceairguns.com/sportair.html
michael
BB.
Im sorry, i hadnt seen that you had already answered my question.
I was just wondering when it would be available, its cost, and if pyramyd will carry it.
waht would be the most similar rifle to this available now?
michael
Michael,
AirForce will be selling this rifle directly to keep the price low for shooting clubs. They anticipate a large response, so there will probably be a waiting list in the beginning.
The cost should be in the neighborhood of $500, but they haven’t determined that yet.
The most similar rifle to this one now is the TAU Senior D, except this one runs on air and comes with an aperture rear sight.
B.B.
Hi BB,
Bring back the good old Crosman 2200 Magnum that James House thought so highly of.
jj
jj,
I’ll try! I have already spoken to Crosman about doing that.
B.B.
BB – I don’t mean to beat a dead horse, but those left and right groups are with different groups of pellets, not all pellets. Shot in tight groups, but some are to the left and some are to the right of center. Of course, my problem could be on the other side of the gun from the target… 😉
Ozark
PS – have you checked out those wiehrach magnum pellets?
Hi BB,
JJ here,
Besides the 2200, Crosman should bring back the 1322, and should introduce a 2177, which shoots ONLY pellets, not BB’s like the 2100, with the compromise barrel.
jj
Personally, I would not spend $270 on a Benjamin/Sheridan (other than a vintage Supergrade) not matter how easy it was to pump. Nor on any other airgun built in that style. Given the choice between a $270 Benjamin and a $270 European springer I’d take the latter, and I don’t even like springers.
I’m not a Benji hater, I have an early 392 that’s doing quite well. It’s just that it’s a simple designed tailored for moderate quality, low cost, and mass production. I prefer airguns with a more solid construction, better trigger, better sights, better ergonomics, and an eye towards ease of maintenace.
Now, if someone came out with a high quality pump-up gun in that pricerange (or higher) I’d be all over it. The used prices for guns in that vein have gotten so high I’m surprised no one’s taken to making a new one.
Whatever happened to Cannon, anyway? They had a crude Sharp Ace copy that seemed to have been sold fairly recently.
Canon is an Indonesian copy of the Sharp Innova, also reported to be made in Indonesia. The workmanship is iffy and the seal materials are incorrect, so Cannons are weak and leaky.
Properly done, the Canon would be a good airgun, but the Indonesians don’t understand that, yet.
B.B.
BB,
I am not suggesting that counting to 8 is difficult but if I was
Pyramyd AIR I would look at it from product liability stand-point of view if over-pumping can cause damage to the gun.
This is life and all kinds of situations are possible. How about this?
Shooter #1 pumps the air rifle 8 times and proceeds to make 2 shots
Shooter #1
leaves the room.
Shooter #2 enters the room and proceeds to pump the air rifle 8 times not knowing
what happened during the first session.
You are saying that nothing bad will happen to the air rifle
even if Shooter #2 overpumps it. What will happen to the extra air? Will it escape somehow without damaging the seals?
Sorry for what maybe a stupid question, I am not technically apt on air guns, so maybe
I am seeing an issue which does not really exist.
My take on it (if the issue I am describing above is a non-issue) –
I would not pay $300.00 for a pump air rifle since CO2 in comparable power is available for around $200 –
RWS 850 Hammerli
Overpumped,
Plerase read this post to understand what happens to the excess air when a gun is overpumnped:
/blog/2006/9/what-is-valve-lock-in-a-pneumatic-gun/
The bad news is the air cannot escape when a gun is overpumped. If it could you’d have a leaky airgun.
B.B.
Too much money to make it easier. Maybe license the Mac-1 conversion which has been so popular.
In regards to springer comments, I have a very difficult time shooting them accurately. …I know there is a technique but I don’t have the time.
Scopes…the Williams peep is good enough for the power and accuracy of the gun. If I want to take 70 yard shots on small game, I will use my Marlin 39A. -Jay
I think that the inventor of this modification should sell his idea to Crosman so that the 392/397’s can be produced with the mod already installed,
mech
mech,
They declined it.
B.B.
Has anyone else done this?? Any drawbacks?
Ray
At August 11, 2007 12:02 PM, Anonymous said…
Hello,
A far less expensive way to make pumping a 382/397 easier, is to use a lighter spring to hold the check valve in place. The designers of this gun went on the cheap and used a single heavy spring to hold both the check(intake) valve and exhust valve in place. Just unscrew the valve assembly, place a light spring against the check valve then place a washer over the spring. There is a ledge ringing the inside of the assembly that washer will rest on. The original heavy spring goes back in to now hold the washer against the ledge and the exhaust valve shut. Screw together assembly and you’re done. It cost me a spring from a bic pen and a washer.
It sounds complicated but is insanely easy. The 392/397 are great guns to tinker with and are a true joy once the pumping is made easier. The toughest part is getting over your fear of ruining the gun, trust me you won’t. ..but even if you do you’ll only be out a hundred or so bucks.
Eight pumps on my shooter is probably as easy as Two on a stock rifle. …my apologies for the longwinded post, but I really love these pumpers.
As for the articulated pump lever. It sound like a good idea that’s been around for a while. I wouldn’t pay top dollar for it, but I would like to check one out.
-Cheers, I.B. McGinty
p.s. over pumping wont blow out the seals
hi-how do i contact b b pellitier, i have some qhestions concerning a Johnson Indoor Target Gun-
Thank you Bob Dick
Bob Dick,
You ask your questions here. I will answer them if I can or send you to someone else, if I can’t.
B.B.
Hi guys —
Please tell me how to get this modification. Can I purchase a benjamin 392 from you at pyramid with the modification?… or do i need to go through a third party to modify a newly purchased 392? I am also interested in a power (ft/sec) upgrade. Perhaps it would just make more sense to buy the new Benjamin Marauder?
Nels,
This is a very specialized modification. Only 10 to no more than 20 guns were ever modified this way.
The cost prohibited sales. But the man who does the mod called me two weeks ago and is thinking of starting again. I'm sure he would like a customer.
Here is his website:
http://www.airchanics.com/
His name is Bob.
Goof luck,
B.B>
There is VERY MUCH still a need and a market for this mod.
More and more of us are reaching retirement age (= strength loss and fixed incomes) where we can't even get to a store for ammo or air/gas bottles- not that we could afford those.
And 392/397 sales are such that Pyramyd can't seem to keep them in stock.
Cost? What does an EXTENDED billet/steroid cost?