Webley Raider 10 – Part 2

by B.B. Pelletier

Part 1

Before we begin, an announcement about an airgun show coming up. The Potomac Arms and Collectors gun show will be held in Frederick, Maryland, on September 13 & 14 at Elks Lodge #684. Hours are 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. on Saturday and 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. on Sunday. Entrance fee is $6, 6″ sales tables are $50 and 8′ tables are $60. Call 301-424-7988 and speak to Marv Freund to register. This is a combined gun and airgun show that draws a lot of Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, Pennsylvania and Washington DC collectors. I’ve done well there with sales tables in the past. You’ll see some very nice collectible airguns at this show.

Today, I’m back to the Webley Raider 10, and we’ll look at velocity. Before we do, however, a report on the gun, itself. You’ll recall in part 1 that I said the gun’s action was very stiff and difficult to operate. That has carried over to the velocity test with only a minimum of loosening. The magazine fights you, making installation difficult, and the indexing is not precise. Several times I had to hand-index the next pellet.

The bolt continues to be overly stiff, though I do see some improvement. But moving it around its slot is as difficult as cocking a BSA Super 10 – another notoriously hard action to cycle.

Filling the gun, on the other hand, could not be easier. The probe fits the adapter on the end of the pump hose, and once the probe is greased with silicone diver’s grease, it slips into the rifle’s fill port easily.

Instructions were wrong
The rifle will accept a 3,000 psi fill, despite the manual specifying a 200-bar limit. The extra six bar gives an extra shot or two, which you’ll want because this rifle gets about 10 shots per fill. That’s not a misprint – I said 10 shots or a single clip. Let’s see how it does.

RWS Hobbys averaged 814 f.p.s., with a spread from 803 f.p.s. to 828. That works out to 17.51 foot-pounds.

Crosman Premiers went an average 796 f.p.s.. The spread was from 763 f.p.s. to 813. That’s an average energy of 20.12 foot-pounds. See how heavier pellets increase the energy in PCPs?

The 21-grain H&N Baracuda Match, which are very similar to Beeman Kodiaks, averaged 692 f.p.s. with a spread from 682 f.p.s. to a high of 699. That’s an average of 22.34 foot-pounds–the best of the three pellets. But let me show you the string and you will see what I mean about this being a 10-shot rifle. The gun was filled to 3,000 psi before starting.

    692
    699
    693
    694
    696
    690
    693
    694
    682*
    684*

That was for 10 shots. Looking at those last two velocities,* I can tell the gun is off the power curve and on the way down. But to show that to our newer readers more clearly, I loaded and shot three more pellets. Starting with shot 11, the velocities are:

    673
    666
    665

A straight plummet, with little hope of recovering. If you buy this rifle, know its limitations.

The rifle is quiet for the power it projects. It sounds about like a Sheridan Blue Streak on 6-7 pumps. That’s the shrouded and baffled barrel at work.

Depending on which pellet you use, this gun ranges from 17.5 to 22+ foot-pounds. That’s a big spread. It also demonstrates the advantage of heavier pellets in a PCP. However, we still must shoot for accuracy to see which pellet to select.

A homework assignment!
All you budding pneumaticists have read quite a bit about pneumatics and PCPs this year. You just read about how a pneumatic valve works, and this rifle gave you a clear demonstration of the classic power curve of one. Here’s your assignment: Calculate the average velocity of 10 15.8-grain JSB Exact Jumbo pellets shot from this rifle on a 3,000 psi fill.

You can do this. It isn’t difficult. I will announce the answer in the next report.

37 thoughts on “Webley Raider 10 – Part 2

  1. Hi,B.B Last night while shooting my Gamo CF-X I noticed that all of a sudden the cocking effort felt slightly lighter.When the cocking handle is pulled down the first few inches feels lighter,and the spring makes a noise although the rest of the cocking feels normal. The rifle seems to shoot okay. Do you think I may have a broken spring? Or possibly It just needs oil.If it’s oil can I use Pellgun oil as thats all I have.I probably voided the warranty as i have a GRT111 Trigger.Sorry this is so long. Thanks.


  2. B.B.
    I ordered an RWS Panther, a Leapers 3-9X50 Scope and the new Leapers scope base for the RWS 34. With the new base installed, I have to use two plastic shims under the FRONT rings to reduce the amount of compensation in the base. Even with that I have to adjust the scope up to its max to get on target at 30 yards. With no shims and the elevation adjustment all the way up the POI is about 2-3 inches high. What is really strange is that I also have to max the windage all the way to the right. I am considering buying the Leapers mount made for the side/under lever guns, but I think I would still have to either use shims or max the elevation adjustment. I also thought about using the Weaver/Picatinny rail for the RWS 850 Magnum. I don’t know how this is held in place or if it would be sufficient to hold my scope in place. I want to keep my Weaver type rings and I don’t really want to spend $50 on a scope base right now. What would you recommend I do?
    Thanks


  3. B.B,
    How can I mount a sling swivel stud on my breakbarrel air rifle? I don’t think I could mount one in the wood because of the cocking slot and Pyramyd doesn’t have the size barrel band I need (.563). The Gamo gun buddy slips around on my rifle. Any help is appreciated.

    Jim



  4. CF-F,

    I can’t tell from what you say, if your spring is broken or not. If it makes a scraping sound, it needs oil. Pellgunoil will work, but when it migrates forward expect some dieseling.

    If the gun were mine, I would just continue to shoot it and do nothing.

    By the way, since you can replace the GRT-III trigger blade with the original one, it will not void your warranty.

    B.B.


  5. B.B.
    Well that settles it for me, I'm totally spoiled now with the Air Arms S410. The action is so smooth, the clips always index perfectly, and the crony test I did yesterday with the first 30 shots average at 1014fps with the .177 10.6 kodiaks…and 952fps with the next 30 shots, and 805fps on the next 30 shots, then 15 more shots to take it down to 50bar, the last shot at 731fps…I started at only 195 bar, because my scuba tank was not totally full, what if I started with 210bar? I still don't know how high I can go before valve lock occurs…that many shots and 1" groups at 50yards with the noise of a kids cap gun….who could ask for more?

    I have not tried the .22 cal, (PA is waiting for them, but I'm going to be order some when they are in) but you did B.B., how does the Raider compare to the S410 in .22 cal? A full review please…(just kidding, we can go back and read it), but a little head to head would be nice…

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range & Rentals


  6. Panther,

    Those shims under the front rings will move the POI DOWN, not UP. You seem to be saying that, then you contradict yourself by saying that you have to adjust your scope to the max to get on target at 30 yards. Which MAX are you talking about? Max DOWN???

    If that is the case, you don’t need a compensating base at all. The 460 base would be better for your than the 34 base. As I said in the post, each rifle has its own unique droop angle.

    Again when discussing using the other base you talk about max elevation adjustment in the scope. You are not making any sense. Are you adjusting UP or DOWN? If you are adjusting up, as nearly all 34 Panthers would require you to, then the base you have now should work perfectly.

    Can you please explain what you are doing and this time, don’t forget to include the directions you are adjusting.

    The RWS 850 Magnum has no recoil, so this base is not required. A $10 set of 11mm rings is all you need.

    B.B.


  7. B.B.

    As far as our homework, did you give us the formula in past blogs? I have no idea about the formula, but my guess is that the 15.8-grain JBS will have an average velocity of 790fps, based on the results you got with the other pellets..but that’s not how you want us to do it, is it?

    My friends Sheridan Blue Streak is louder than any of my springers at 6 pumps, how does the Raider compare with the noise level of the S410 in .22, my .177 s410 is so quite..less noise than any of my springers..except maybe the HW-30..about the same as that one..

    Wayne



  8. B.B.,
    I think about 766 fps for the 15.8gn pellets. Part calculation, and part weight vs energy trend.

    Is “pneumaticist” just a really bad pronunciation for coin collector?

    Lloyd


  9. B.B.
    I’m sorry I was not clear in my post, this is my first experience with both airguns and scopes. It seems like my gun would not require any barrel droop compensation. I have no way to test this because I ordered the scope, base,rings and rifle at the same time. Since the rings are Weaver style, I can’t mount the scope without the base. With the base mounted and the scope adjusted to bring the POI as low as possible, my shots are 2 to 3 inches high. That’s the best I can do without shims under the front ring. You are correct, I have to adjust the scope DOWN to its max to get close. I purchased the base because it seemed that most if not all RWS rifles would need it to compensate for barrel droop and all would benefit from its ability to eliminate scope shift and look nice (no pin hanging off the front of the dove tail). When I asked about the rail for the 850, I was asking if this would fit on the Panther to convert the base from a dove tail to a Weaver type rail. This is the one I’m talking about http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/accessory.pl?accessory_id=930
    Would this keep the scope from shifting or would this rail just slip on the dove tails? I emailed Pyramydair and they said it should fit but they weren’t sure about the length or how well it would work to stop scope shift. Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks


  10. B.B.

    My M1 Garand is almost done. Unbelievable. I just got the test target with 5 shots in about .85 at 100 yards from a machine rest. Now the only remaining question here is whether to install a national match sight. Is there both a front and rear national match sight or is it a matter of just changing the rear sight? And how does the aperture size of the NM sight differ from the standard? I’m on the fence here between historical authenticity and increased accuracy. And I’m concerned that my Dad can use the rifle since his eyes aren’t too good. Thanks.

    Matt61


  11. 34 Panther,

    Now I understand. You have one of those rare RWS Diana rifles that doesn’t have much droop.

    That 11mm to Weaver conversion you listed would work, except I can’t tell whether it has a scope stop, and a 34 needs one. I see two screws in the rail, but I don’t know that they are in the right place. Ask Pyramyd Air to check for you.

    You also have a problem of shooting to the right. The best solution for you is a B-Square 1701 one-piece adjustable scope mount.

    http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/accessory.pl?accessory_id=360

    It will compensate for the tendency to shoot to the right. Perhaps Pyramyd Air will let you exchange your base and rings in credit on one of these. You will still have to hang the scope stop pin in front of the rifle’s scope base.

    B.B.



  12. BB
    I look foward to you blog each day.

    My question today is this.
    You recomended the norica youth gun a short time ago and mine will arive soon. Will one of the gtrIII trigers fit in this gun? Furthermore can you recomend a book on teaching a child to shoot and maby along the way I will hone some of my bad habits out as well.

    Thank you
    CBH



  13. B.B.

    Thanks, I was leaning in the direction of the standard sight because I also want to test the quick target acquisition you mentioned, and I want to see what the G.I.’s and Marines saw through their sights.

    By the way, the magazine of the Garand Collector’s Association had an article about a guy winning the overall high power championship at Camp Perry in 2007 with a Garand so this rifle is still doing some damage.

    Matt61


  14. B.B.

    I went back to my B30 with the screw working on my front sight, installed it, and voila, the thing was still sliding back and forth on the ramp!? Even after straining after the screw had stopped moving, it was still possible to move the front sight without much difficulty. I wonder if I have somehow overlubricated the ramp with Ballistol in the process of spraying down the front sight screw.

    Finally with a truly superhuman effort and some extra incremental surges, I got the front sight on tight enough that it stays although I expect that recoil will shake it loose in time; I expect that is what happened the first time around. It’s not a big deal since I mostly shoot the rifle with a scope anyway. But would it help to put a dab of blue loctite at the base of the front sight where it joins the ramp?

    Matt61


  15. I would guess under normal circumstances that the Avg Velocity of 15.8 gr pellets would be about 770 fps but knowing my experience with Crosman pellets and their harder than normal alloy I would bet the velocity of JSB’s will be closer to 785 or so.

    Sam




  16. Hi BB,

    I’ve had a Beeman R7 for a year, using the open sights that came with it. Love the rifle, but ran into problems when I attempted to install a Beeman Sport Aperture Sight – even with the verticle adjustment maxed-out the pellets weren’t meeting the target – so apparently I’ve got a serious case of droop.

    It’s in Beeman’s service department now with instructions to mount and sight-in the aperture site, doing whatever is necessary to bring the barrel into adequate alignment with the plane of the receiver. At least that’s what I hope they do, as opposed to getting the rifle back with a massive shim under the rear sight. [It will also return a super-tune and a new front site that accepts replacement inserts - can't wait for the result!]

    My question is, in light of all this recent discussion on barrel droop, what method would they likely be using to correct this issue?

    Brian



  17. B.B.

    I don’t recall reading Wayne’s solution, but I would prefer a reversible solution. Five minute epoxy sounds better than superglue, and I believe I might already have some with my archery equipment.

    Wayne, if you’re out there, I’m curious about your experience with the Leapers 6-24X50 scope that you mentioned having. How do the windage/elevation knobs work for you? I have mine back at Leapers for repairs since the controls completely broke, but I don’t recall that they ever worked that great. It seemed like I had to experiment each time to find the right height at which the knobs would work.

    Matt61


  18. Hi BB,

    Good Lord! I am seriously considering buying a Condor!

    But I have a question.

    How loud is the Condor .22 compared with the report of a .22 LR; let’s say, from the barrel of a Ruger 10-22, which I own already?

    Thanks for your time,

    Joe B.


  19. B.B. & Matt

    Oh dear, I had put my glue away, now I have to keep it at the ready…never say never………

    Matt, I've had a problem with most of the leapers scopes since they changed to the allen screw lock…about half of the 25 or so, I've bought won't stay put on a springer that has strong recoil…it's not much, but it seems I'm always adjusting every 20 shots or so, I could not prove it until I got the Benchmaster rest. I always thought it was me, but the rest proved it was the scope moving to the right a little…

    I didn't send them back to PA, because they work fine on the PCPs.

    PA had some Centerpoint 3-9x40AO unboxed but new, for awhile. They didn't have the allen set screws, and they hold up fine to the toughest springers, but they don't have the power my old eyes need for field target at 50 yrds..I'm glad I bought 6 of them, because they are gone now..
    I don't know what to tell you other than put it on a Discovery, or better still the Air Arms S410, and I bet you change your name to Matt 410….
    I'm thinking of changing mine to S410happy………

    Joe B.
    I want to know also about the condor loudness. I'm going to try one for Bill to rent maybe….

    Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range & Rentals


  20. Wayne,

    Thanks. Do you mean that the elevation and windage are moving as a result of the recoil from the springers? Or is it that the scope is moving on the rifle? If the windage and elevation are moving that seems especially weird with the zero locking feature since that is just the problem it was supposed to correct. My problem was that the knobs would lock shut so they wouldn’t move or they would spin without purchase and without changing anything. If the scope is moving on the rifle, that seems more of a problem with the scope mount. I have to say my Leapers high mount has worked fine although I haven’t used the 6-24X50 scope enough to say. Since my scope is already in the shop, I’ll see what they do.

    If you’re looking for another high powered scope, you might consider the Air Force 6-24X50 which has no zero locking feature. B.B. gave the Air Force scopes a good review and they are not that much more expensive than Leapers. I’m wishing I had bought one.

    You make a very good case for the S410, but I’m cleaned out for awhile with the purchase of the Garand. Yes, there are so many possibilities for names. I’ve thought of changing mine to LordHelmet but haven’t had the guts.

    Matt61


  21. Matt,

    I’ve got a scope with target turrets, and it does what you’re talking about — turret set screws walk out allowing turret to turn w/o making adjustment. Blue loctite should work, or did you already try it? I think the screws need some sort of lock washer on them, but they’re too tiny to mess with.


  22. Matt61,

    I don’t know, it could be the mounts. I tried loctite on the screws and even laid a bead on the inside of the mounts..didn’t work. And when I switched to the 3-9×40 without the allens in the same type mounts, the problem stopped. Remember I even superglued one to the mounts…that might have solved it, but I didn’t test it really because I got the S410, and I’m not really interested in anything else for the awhile at least….We are also in the midst of choosing the site for the set up of our field target course, ( the targets are on the way, I got some Gamos from PA, and 12 from “After Hours Target Co. after B.B.s referral, Dick is a great guy people, great service too..) so I can’t say for sure what the problem was, but it wasn’t a problem with the other scope, so go figure…

    The Leapers have such great optics for the money, and on the PCP I just leave the screws loose enough to move the turrets, and they have stayed put so far.. I’ll just use those scopes on the PCPs for now until I figure it out later… I wish they would loose the green/red lite thing too, just give me a good AO on the side wheel, for a little more..they have a few models like that, but not enough selection…

    I will try the Air Force 6-24X50, I saw that B.B. had one, too….I need a good scope for the TX200 carbine..It makes it hard to load when the scope goes over the loading port, but it can be done with practice…The TX was one I couldn’t get the Leapers to hold on..And I didn’t want to drip glue on the TX….just kidding I don’t really glue everything…

    Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  23. BB,

    The more I search for Tanaka SAA .45s on line, the more I see them listed as OUT OF STOCK or DISCONTINUED. I hope PA can get Tanaka to make more batches of them.

    I don’t understand why the Cowboy Action groups haven’t embraced airsoft SAAs yet. For one thing, you wouldn’t have to custom load corn meal cartridges to keep from injuring the audience during the horse and balloon games…. And you could play in downtown areas that would otherwise object to the noise of firearms.

    –Joe B.


  24. bg_farmer and Wayne,

    So is target turrets the name for this design? The principle sounds the same, but I think that the construction is a little different from mine. There is a sort of movable column in the center of the adjustment knob which is unlocked with an Allen key, but the column is completely covered with a metal casing. Once unlocked, the adjustment knob can move up, but you have to raise it to the level of a white line etched on a metal casing inside of the knob. Since the line must stay fixed it must be on some sort of sleeve between the inner column and the knob. Anyway, I don’t see any place to apply loctite or washers. I can’t believe anyone with the smarts to execute all of this would go for such a stupid design. The lower power scopes with the click adjustments worked just fine.

    Matt61


  25. Dear B.B.

    My guess is that the JSB Jumbo’s will develop just under 21 fpe, giving a velocity of 773 fps with the pellets mentioned….

    malan


  26. Joe B.,

    A Condor shooting at full power is quieter than a 10/22 shooting standard-speed long rifles. The difference isn’t much, because the Condor is about equal to a .22 short.

    B.B.






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