Walther P38 airsoft pistol – Part 2

by B.B. Pelletier

Part 1

For those with Christmas money, here are some sales at Pyramyd Air. All Drozds and Drozd magazines are on sale. For Daisy lovers, there’s a 1-week sale on Red Ryders, Red Ryder kits and the 4841 Grizzly C pneumatics.

Okay, serious testing today. I received a comment from a reader on the first report of this pistol complaining that I only look at “junk” airsoft guns. He encouraged me to look into other models that he considered not to be junk, among them a Tokyo Marui Hi-Capa 5.1 pistol. He told me his 5.1 can out-shoot a Benjamin 392 at 15 yards.

I doubt that. I tested the Hi-Capa 5.1 for this blog back in 2005, and, while it is very accurate, it cannot keep all its shots on a nickel at 10 yards, let alone 15, while the 392 can. Folks, I make no claim to be the world’s expert on airsoft guns. I test them because we have some readers who want me to. I used to put them in Airgun Illustrated for the same reason. But I am a democratic tester. I will test any airgun or airsoft gun that I have access to. YOU may not like the gun I’m testing today, but believe it or not, there are many who do. Tomorrow or next week, I’ll probably test a gun YOU like.

I’m saying this because this blog is not some forum where only certain airguns are acceptable. This is about all airguns – period! Everybody gets to play!

Velocity first
I weighed the BBs that came in the package with the pistol and found they were 0.20 grams – exactly what I expected for a gas pistol. I’m probably misreading the manual and they don’t recommend 0.12-gram BBs after all. The manual seems to indicate the gun’s velocity should be 325 f.p.s., so we’ll see how that stacks up against the different weight ammo.

The velocity with generic 0.12-gram BBs was an average of 386 f.p.s., with a low of 377 and a high of 393. With Air Venturi 0.20-gram BBs, the average was 313 f.p.s., with a spread from 304 to 319. That’s close to the published velocity. With TSD Competition-Grade 0.25-gram BBs, the velocity averaged 290 f.p.s., with a spread from 285 to 300. I think that establishes 0.20-gram BBs as the recommended weight for the pistol.

Is it accurate?
I shot this pistol ’til the cows came home. I think someone requested that I test it at 10 meters, so I tried to do it. But this isn’t a 10-meter airsoft pistol. Just like the 9mm P38 it copies, the accuracy falls off fast as the distance increases. At 15 feet, I was shooting acceptable groups. At 25 feet I couldn’t keep the BBs on the target!


I went through a lot of gas and different BBs testing the P38.

I tried 0.20-gram and 0.25-gram BBs, but not 0.12-gram. They were moving too fast for good accuracy, and I was shooting indoors. The absolute best accuracy was a tie between some Tokyo Marui black BBs I have and Air Venturi BBs! I tried lots of different ammo, but these two BBs stood out. Not only did both group well, they both shot to the point of aim, which is a big deal when the sights don’t adjust.


Air Venturi 0.20-gram BBs were one of the two best at 15 feet.


Marui black 0.20-gram BBs were about as good as Air Venturi at 15 feet.


At 20 feet, the groups started opening fast, as these black Maruis show. At 25 feet, I was missing the target paper altogether.

Trigger
The two-stage trigger is very light in single-action, and it’s the lightest double-action trigger I’ve yet seen. The single-action pull is not crisp, but long and creepy. However, it breaks at a repeatable 1 lb., 12 ozs. The double-action pull requires just 4 lbs., 14 ozs, which is amazing.

Loading the magazine
The magazine holds 12 BBs in a single stack. That’s only 50 percent more than the 9mm firearm. The onboard green gas reservoir is just large enough for a single magazine, so each time you reload, you also gas up. Loading is one at a time through the release gate at the top of the mag – no speedloaders here. Loading is deliberate and one hand pulls down on the follower while the other loads the BBs.

A P38 has the same magazine release as many European pistols. It’s located at the bottom rear of the grip frame, where it takes two hands and a lot of time to drop the mag. The slide release, on the other hand, is right where a right-handed shooter wants it, so you can release the slide with the thumb of the shooting hand without changing your grip on the gun. I forgot to mention that the safety is also a decocking mechanism, so there’s no putting it back on without recocking the hammer.

The bottom line
Well the critic was correct, this P38 isn’t as accurate as a Marui Hi Capa 5.1. But the Hi-Capa is a fantasy gun – only mimicking the look of a custom 1911. This particular pistol is a good representation of an actual P38, which it’s supposed to be. If you’re a collector, a military re-enactor or are simply curious about the classic P38 and want one without spending a ton of money, this Walther gun is made for you.±±

79 Responses to “Walther P38 airsoft pistol – Part 2”

  • Vince Says:

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – “WE 1911A1″. When a buddy of mine (ex-marine captain) looked it over and tried it out, he couldn’t stop giggling…

    Also, how big is the black area on the targets you were using? Just trying to get an idea of the grouping.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Vince,

    That;s a 10-meter pistol target. The bull measures 2-3/8″ across.

    And, once again, I’m not looking for the ultimate accuracy in every airsoft gun I test. This one is just a replica.

    That said, I will probably select a WE or a Marui as the base gun for an IPSC race gun I’m planning to build.

    B.B.

  • IceWater Says:

    Hi BB,

    This question is more on velocity etc. I am considering to buy a Umarex CP99 pellet gun. The stated fps is 360.

    I have a KWC mini UZI bb gun. It uses 12g Co2 cartridge and it shoots at 450fps with 0.2BB. Will the mini UZI have higher penetrating force than the CP99? I cant even penetrate the top part of a coke can, which I find is pretty lame. I want a powerful pellet handgu and if the cp99 is less powerful than the mini Uzi, I might not want to buy it. How much penetrating force would the cp99 has? How many pages will it penetrate if I shoot a phone book? Also, does a higher grain pellet = higher penetration?

    I found that the 360fps on the cp99 is kind of slow. A Bugatti Veyron car can travel above 400km/h. 360fps = 396km/h. So theocratically, if you are inside the Bugatti traveling at 396km/h, and you shoot the cp99 out the window, you can see the pellet floating in midair?

    Also, why would a pellet traveling at this speed be able to penetrate through an empty can of soda, but if the front end of the bugatti were to hit the same can at the same speed, it only causes the can to be crumpled instead of smashing it to smitherins? With the car having a huge kj and all.

    Thx

  • nate in mass Says:

    Thx
    I dont own the Cp99 but it will have more penatrating force due to the smaller surface area of the pellet. Also lead will retain more energy than plastic.

    BB,
    I am a little dissapointed by those groups. I was expecting better. Ive heard KWA makes some of the best gas guns around(save Western Arms). They are well known for their Glocks but do have a 1911 avilable. If you ever get the oppertunity to test one i would go for it. If i ever get around to getting another airsoft gun KWA would be one of my top picks.

    Nate in Mass

  • Vince Says:

    Icewater, the CP99 pellet gun shoots a projectile that’s on the order of 35-40 times heavier than the airsoft gun. This translates into something like 25-30 times the power of the airsoft gun, even with the lower velocity. Yes, it will have more penetration… especially when you take into account the smaller diameter.

    Your phone book question cannot be answered. Too many variables… pellet weight, hardness, shape, etc.

    As for the “floating pellet” question, you have to remember that there is no such thing as an absolute reference point for velocity. When a gun fires a projectile, it launches it at a certain velocity relative to the muzzle, regardless of how fast the muzzle is already moving.

    Due to the rotation of the earth, on the surface we are traveling at something close to 1000mph. But the pellet doesn’t act much different if you shoot it towards the east as opposed to the west…

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Ice Water,

    You can’t pick up both your feet with your hands, either.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B.

    I’m glad that you are continuing to write about all different kinds of guns. That’s how one can learn the most. My UHC Super 9 which I bought out of total ignorance continues to astonish me. On some days, it shoots as well as the Crosman 1077 at 20 feet. I don’t see the advantage of paying a whole bunch of extra money for the same performance.

    Regarding the CP99, doesn’t the muzzle brake increase the pellet velocity to 400 fps? I seem to recall reading that somewhere.

    icewater, I think the reason that the Bugatti crumples a can on impact as opposed to punching a hole like the pellet has to do with its size. I bet if you found a can of the same thickness that was proportionately as large to the Bugatti as a soda can is to a pellet, that the Bugatti would punch through just the same.

    As far as driving next to the pellet and watching it in flight, I do believe that this is how Albert Einstein came up with his theories on relativity–he imagined himself traveling next to a light beam. However, in the case of the pellet since you are traveling at non-relativistic speeds (low percentage of lightspeed) I don’t see why you couldn’t travel next to the pellet. The surface of the earth would work as an approximate reference frame since it is so large relative to both. It would be technically difficult but possible in theory, I think.

    Matt61

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Vince,

    Thanks for your answer, but I suspect Ice Water is simply joking. No one asks questions like that.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    icewater,
    I think it would be the guy who stands on the ground observes the pellet falling after exiting the barrel, assuming you shoot opposite direction of the car you are in. It is the same reason that you won’t move an inch if you just keep jumping up while the Earth rotates.

  • Dr. G. Says:

    SUMO,
    Thanks for confirming my suspicions regarding the similarity of the Air Arms and BSA Wolverine pellets (from Wednesday blog). How do you know that they are made by the same manufacturer?……Regarding my Rapid, as you might have guessed from the question, I have a .22, not a .20. It is an Allen Z. modified Rapid, and so it has been tuned to fire a 16 grain pellet 950 fps, which is does very accurately and always without a hitch. The most accurate pellets for this rifle are the “two” that I mentioned as well as the very heavy Eun Jin round nose. The lighter, Eun Jin flat nose is accurate out to 25 yards, and the famous Kodiak pellet is of no use in this rig. I found no hollow point pellets that were acceptably accurate in this rifle for hunting beyond very short distances of 17 yards. – Dr. G.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Will the RWS34 be able to have a gasram fitted?

  • sumo Says:

    DR. G

    JSB is the only pellet manufacturer in the czeck republic. They license the pellets all over. Daystate also has daystate FTs and they are jsb.

    My rapid likes kodiaks and it a .22. It set at about 930 with them (about 38 fp). I have a daystate airwolf and it prefers jsbs over everything else. I heard it has a walther barrel but i don’t believe it because its far more accurate than any gun with a walther barrel that i have shot before. A walther barrel in my experience will max out at about .5 inches at 50 yards, the airwolf can cut that in half.

    maybe its a walther barrel that was riffles by daystate.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Hi B.B.
    I couldn’t help but notice the new Walther Hunter rifles in the new Airgun Times. Do you have any information on them? I would like to know how the .25 cal version stacks up against the Patriot. The $266.00 price is a lot closer to my budget than the $423.00 price of the Patriot.

    Thanks,
    ScottinCali

  • IceWater Says:

    Hi everybody,
    thanks for the answers.
    I am serious about the bugatti question. So in other word, its impossible to hit the rear of a boeing 747 in flight with a pellet gun, since they travel at near subsonic speed. It is also impossible to hit a Bugatti Veyron when its in full speed with a 360fps gun. Cuz the car is simple faster than the bullet.
    Vince,
    Pellets are not 35-40 times the weight of those 6mm plastic bb. 2 to 3 times at most. Plastic BB can weigh 0.4grams. Pellets weigh up to 10 gr (grains!) 1 gram is 14.32 grains. So a 0.4 gram plastic bb is already 5.7 gr(grains). Even heavier than many lead free pellets. So cp99 wouldn’t be noticeably more powerful than my KWC mini Uzi which shoots 0.2 gram BB at 450FPS right?
    I need a powerful pellet handgun that looks nice. Maybe one that can hit that Bugatti from the back.

    Icewater

  • pestbgone Says:

    Bugatti folks,
    OK, let me take a shot at this Bugatti teaser. Pretend you got the space travel option on your new Bugatti and are cruising at an excruciatingly slow 1000fps towards Uranus. Your acceleration is zero, and because you are in a vacuum and nothing else is close by, you have no sensation of movement. But your velocity is still 1000fps relative to the universe.
    To relieve the boredom, you hang your Super Streak out the airlock and shot it straight ahead in the direction of travel. The pellet accelerates up the barrel and reaches a velocity of 1000fps, relative to the gun, just as it leaves the muzzle. As soon as the pellet leaves the muzzle, its acceleration drops to zero, but its velocity is still 1000fps relative to the gun, and to your Bugatti, BUT 2000 fps relative to the universe.
    Because space is a vacuum, BCs are irrelevant and the pellet keeps moving away from your Bug at a relative 1000fps with no drop. After one minute it is 11 miles ahead of you. (Wow, just think of it, no windage or elevation adjustments!)

    Now you are back on earth at Bonneville, again traveling at 1000fps, and again hang that Super Streak out the window. But now you’ve got all that air resistance to make you painfully aware of your velocity. Again, you shoot forwards and the pellet leaves the muzzle with a loud crack at 2000fps relative to the still air.
    But within about 150yds (1/2 sec) you pass the pellet because it is loosing velocity (its going about 500fps when you pass it) and your Bug is still at 1000fps. And finally, way behind you, the pellet plows into the salt, about 300 yds from where you initially fired it.

    I’m still wondering what happens when you fire backwards. LOL
    Pestbgone

  • Vince Says:

    Man, that’s egg on my face! How’d I miss that?

    In any event the comments about the increased penetration still apply, just not as severely. The CP99 still has about 50% more energy with a smaller diameter projectile.

    Thanks for correcting my stupidity – getting tripped up on something as elementary as units of measure is pretty bad…

    In any event, if you’re on the ground and shoot a 360fps pellet at a target moving away from you at 360fps or faster, you cannot hit it.

  • Takinu Says:

    Hi BB I know this is a pretty random way to ask this question but it’s the only way I could figure out how to ask it.

    I’m trying to pick a airgun and I’ve come down to these six. Crosman 1377 c, Dasiy 22SG, CROSMAN 664SB, CROSMAN 2100B, Mendoza RM-200 .22 or Remington Airmaster 77.

    I’m going to use it to shoot from a distance of 20-35 feet indoors so it can’t be too loud but it also has to be powerful and accurate because I want to shoot stuff other than targets.

    I’m very sorry for asking such a question just I can’t figure out if I should pay the extra money for the mendoza .22, go with a strong .177 or the daisy 22sg.

    I really can’t figure out which is better. I’m sorry for asking this and it being unrelated to the topic I just really don’t know where else to ask this.

  • Anonymous Says:

    takinu, when you say “I want to shoot stuff other than targets”, what does that mean? If you are thinking about pest control, .22cal should be the minimum for being humane. BB might need more specifics on your true expected use for the gun.

  • Takinu Says:

    I mean like hard cover books, plastic toys etc.. I don’t ever plan on hunting and thank you for your response.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Takinu,

    You’ve selected a broad range of low-priced airguns. That smacks of desperation, as in, “How nice a gun can I buy for this much money?”

    The targets you list are all soft for any of these guns. A .177 will deal with them easily and give you a huge savings on ammo, which I suspect is very important.

    For plinking army men, nothing beats a .177, and it doesn’t take much power. I have no experience with hardcover books, and why are you shooting them? Angry at school?

    The problem with the guns on your list is the noise level. You want to be quiet indoors, and only the Mendoza RM 200 can be. The others all have a sharp pop.

    There are some guns you haven’t listed that I believe may suit you more than any on your list. For starters, what about the Gamo Delta, the Hammerli 490 Express or the Crosman 795? All have enough power to do what you want to do and all are much quieter than anything on your list.

    I’m starting to test youth rifles. I’ve already started with the Hammerli 490 Express, and I’ll get to the others, as well. Can you wait long enough for me to at least complete the test of the 490 Express, which will be next week?

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    RWS 34 Gasram,

    I suspect your question is more, “When will the RWS Diana 34 have a gas spring conversion?”

    Right now the emphasis is on Gamo-based rifles, so it will take some time. Read that as at least 6-12 months. But in time, yes, I think the RWS Diana line is a great one for gas springs, as is Weihrauch.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    ScottinCali ,

    These airguns have just been announced. The P38 was an advanced prototype, but I have to wait for the others to get in-country.

    I will get examples of many of the rifles to test over the next year. Please keep after me.

    Having read the Patriot gas spring review, you do understand that no .25 caliber air rifle will be as accurate as a .22?

    B.B.

    B.B.

  • sumo Says:

    a theoben rapid in .25 is just as accurate as the .177, .20 or .22. It cant face the elements as well as the .22 at range, but thats beside the point.

    -sumo

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B.
    Thanks for your timely reply. I’ve got the airgun bug pretty bad, having recently purchased a Whisper, Viper Express, Diana 350 Mag, Drozd, and several other pistols! I re-read the Patriot review, and I am sure I would be ok with the shortcomings of the .25Cal accuracy wise. I am impressed with the power, and looking to add to the collection. I shoot primarily in a residential back yard, so the noise and extreme power of most PCP’s rules them out. The Sumatra 2500 is tempting though…Keep up the good work! I read your blog daily. Take care,
    ScottinCali

  • Vince Says:

    Takinu, BB seems to be steering you towards a breakbarrel… multi-pumps get a bit old for plinking. Too much work and too long between shots.

    You might also wanna consider a Crosman 1077 CO2 gun. It’s not really semi-auto (more like a double action), but it’s a fun plinker at that range and you can get spare mags. One real down side is cold weather performance – but if you’re shooting in a heated space (like a basement) it’s not an issue.

    There’s the added cost of CO2… but if you shop around, you can get cartridges cheap enough to add only about a penny per shot or a little less.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Sumo,m

    Your Theoben .25 is the first one I’ve heard of that could keep up withy the smaller calibers. It isn’t the guns that are less accurate, it’s the ammo. Hold onto that rifle!

    B.B.

  • SquirrelKiller Says:

    B.B. said – “…I have no experience with hardcover books, and why are you shooting them?… Angry at school?”

    You guys offering levity are great,… Nice to have fun, while enjoying your hobby. I haven’t laughed this much in a while…

    I’m not encouraging anything,…I’m just saying…

    Thanks

  • sumo Says:

    BB,

    I don’t personally own it. But the only good .25 ammo is the kodiak, and thats what they like.

    you should take your condor out and test all 4 calibers, as you (probably, you did get the shroud from them) know airhog offers a .25 barrel.

    If you find a barrel that likes .25 cal kodiaks, your correct (needless to say), hold onto that riffle.

    i cant stand behind what is not my personal experience so your probably correct, again, as always.

    -sumo

  • icewater Says:

    Hi Vince and all,
    Lol, I missed out on that gram and grain thing the first time too. No biggie. Just that some sites abbreviate grain as gr, which is a bit misleading to many of us, as it is an unfamiliar weighing system to many of us.

    Well, I am living in Indonesia, a third world country, and is currently ordering a CP99. I like the realism and how I can shoot it indoors and all. But I do want a powerful pellet gun.
    Some funny facts bout my county and its gun law:, I have a proper Walther p22(22 calibre) and a CZ 9mm. And get this. Both of my hand guns are legal and I have license to carry them. The Walther P22 is like in any other countries’. However, the 9mm CZ, is rubber bullet ammunition!!! (www.bubmame.co.id) Its a real gun in all aspects, except the bullet’s head is a round rubber ball. Its a mixture of lead and rubber really. Its the only legal form of ammunition for 9mm. Civilians can either have rubber 9mm ammo, or 22 calibre gun or .32. (??what the..)

    Here is the REALLY INTERESTING PART: Licensed Rubber bullet hand gun cost: USD 3000
    Licensed Walther P22 cost: USD 18,000!!!
    Its very expensive!!! The police are earning a killing (no pun intended) out of the licensing!!! There are currently 200,000 licensed hand gun by the way. Illegal is way more than that.

    Anyway, Im getting my CP99, which cost USD 700 here retail, illegally by the way (legal is USD 1,400), next week, and I will conduct tests with my ultra powerful KWC Mini uzi bb gun. If anyone is interested, I can post pics and results, but pls guide me where cuz Im not experienced in posting these things.

    This is all mind boggling to me. So how the heck do those super sonic jets shoot each other from the back? their bullets must be super fast!!!

    Cheers all
    PS shoot em pesky BUGattis!!

  • Icewater Says:

    By the way, sorry for the broken English. Its been awhile since I have to write in English!!!

  • Icewater Says:

    http://www.bumame.co.id/product_english.html
    If youse scroll down to the self defence p22, you will see that they even have the Walther P22 in rubber bullets!! 9mm rubber bullets! They can only shoot 7 meters effectively, anything more they drift around everywhere!!! Being round and no rifled barrel and all.

    Anyway, in Indonesia, you can only carry 9mm rubber bullets gun or proper bullets 22calibre gun (cost 18k usd no matter the brand or gun). Anything else is only to be kept in shooting range.

  • trc Says:

    B.B. & Tim S.C.,

    Welp, I made it out to the indoor range this morning for more target shooting with the new R7. I began by shooting offhand but my accuracy was pretty bad, even for a beginner such as myself! I then switched to shooting off of the back of my fingers as B.B. has talked about in previous posts. Wow! That made a huge difference in accuracy! Thanks B.B. for the tip!!

    The range went out to about 60 feet maximum, so I wasn’t able to do the 25-yard experiement that I had posted about before so I guess that will still have to wait. But I did shoot about another 200 pellets through the gun so it has probably had about 300 through it so far. Here are some of my best targets after switching to shooting off the back of my fingers:

    33 FEET:
    http://picasaweb.google.com/trc4321/R7_010508/photo#5152131256884958994

    50 FEET:
    http://picasaweb.google.com/trc4321/R7_010508/photo#5152131252589991682

    This was with the irons but I’m planning on ordering my scope in about a week and half and can’t wait to give that a shot. :)

    A few guys at the range were pretty curious about what I was shooting – my gun was a lot quieter than all of firearms there heh. One guy I met shoots competitive air pistol so it was cool to talk to him. At any rate, I had a great time today and am looking forward to doing a lot more shooting!

    I’ll keep ya posted once I try shooting with the scope and Crosman Premier Lights / JSB Exact pellets.

  • yamadogg Says:

    bb, ijust got a beeman p1 and shot maybe 1000 to 1500 pellets when i noticed the large pin in the back of the pistol, that holds the spring/piston cartridge, had drifted nearly out of one side of the frame. what do you recomend? tap it back in or return for repair? have a machinist drill and tap both ends of the pin and use small allen head bolts to keep it in place? reading beemans paperwork that came with the gun makes dealing with them seem like a hassle. thanks for any help bb. p.s. other than that, great pistol just a bit overpriced.

  • DragonSlayer Says:

    TRC.: Good for you!!Paul at Pyramid Air you hear that from TRC. ?? (WE GOT ANOTHER LIVE ONE!!)(you too BB.)TRC. you mentioned BB,s back of finger hold, were you shooting from bench rest?? Sounds like your SMITTEN my friend!! Welcome to our world!!Wish you lived close as I would LOVE to shoot your R-7!! I bet an R-7 is alot more forgiving to HOLD issues as some of my magnums.My new Gamo Ricon at 500 fps. seems to shoot accuratly for anyone who shoots it!Anyway, GREAT to hear back from you!I as well as BB. (Im shure) Get really exited to have someone new to the hobby jump in FULL FORCE! like you!!GOOD shooting OUR friend!!Tim.

  • Kevin Says:

    I got my order from Pyramid today containing a 2240 with a few different .22 pellets and some .177 Crosman 10.5 Premier Ultra Magnums and Beeman Kodiak Extra Heavy 10.6 grain. The .177 I’m using is a CFX with GRT-III trigger. First off shooting either of the heavy’s hit about an inch off the mark at around 11 meters. An inch off what I had zero’d for Gamo match. The scope is a 3x9x32 bushnell airrifle scope. Anyway, after some readjustments the Ultra Magnums are consistently (and I mean *consistantly*!) hitting the black on a 1″ orange sticker targer. The Kodiaks don’t seem as accurate, but I just cannot miss with the Ultra Magnums!
    Anyway, for those with CFX’s, check those pellets out!

  • DragonSlayer Says:

    KEVIN: Congrats. on your latest purchase from P.A.!! I see you have a CFX w/ GRT111 trigger! Good for you! Is that trigger not THE BEST!! Those orange stick on targets sound like what I use,not shure of your yardedge, but if your hitting that little triangle black bull WOW!! YOU will LOVE your new 2240 pistol!( Save you some time,,Imidiatly adjust rear sight All the way down)Have now 7 Cros. pistols & all but muzzle break customs have needed this “Out the box”! (You may still hit high at really close range) Good luck w/ your 2240,And boy you will find out about the COUNTLESS mods. you can do to it!! Tim.

  • TRC Says:

    Tim,

    Thanks! Ya, from bench rest – I’m not sore this time! ;)

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    TRC,

    I got my rifle about the same time as you, so I’ve been following your progress with interest. Your groups look good — you will be doing the same offhand pretty soon. Please reconsider turning the beautiful R7 into a scoped benchrest queen, though! Maybe an aperture insert?

  • trc Says:

    bg_farmer,

    Thanks for the compliment on the groupings. :)

    Maybe what I said was a bit confusing. I shot from a standing postion with my elbows on the “shelf” in my slot at the range with the gun resting on the backs of my fingers of my left hand (I’m right-handed). The gun itself wasn’t resting on something like bean-bag dealy or anything.

    Sorry for my newb-ness, but what’s a aperture insert?

  • JP Says:

    I’m a bit intrigued how a fellow can somehow compare and Airsoft PISTOL to a multi-pump pnuematic Pellet RIFLE and complain about accuracy differences. All the same, I prefer to put lead downrange for plinking: train for the game, right? jp

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    TRC,

    I see — even better shooting then. I hope my remark about a benchrest queen didn’t come off too crusty (it was intended in fun). BR (and scope if I can live without it) aren’t my cup of tea for fun shooting, but those little “black blob” (10m AR) targets make me see the attraction, and I thought you might be getting frustrated, despite what appears to be excellent progress!

    I may have antique or incorrect terminology: on some sights you can replace the notch plate in the rear sight with an aperture (peep) sight, which gives you ability to see target and front sight more clearly (acts as a pinhole “lens” with more depth of field, if I am explaining it correctly).

    Anyway, you’re having a good time with that rifle and getting good quickly…keep it up!

  • trc Says:

    B.G.,

    No worries on the remark. I confused “benchrest” with any part of my body resting on something, not the gun. :P

    Ok, I know what you are talking about in regards to an aperture insert now. Putting a scope on the gun seems pretty fun though and I’m interested to see how I can do with one but yeah, I’m not planning on resting the gun on something – just my elbows either on my knees from the seated position or my elbows on a table or shelf or whatnot.

    A couple newbie question: I was checking out some YouTube videos of some Olympic-style competition airgun rifle shooters. It was hard to tell, but I thought it looked like they were either standing or seated in chairs but they couldn’t rest their arms or the gun on anything when taking their shots. True? Also, their guns weren’t scoped. What do they use for sights? Aperture insert or something more like open-sight irons? I’ve never checked out a match gun before…

  • Kevin Says:

    Dragonslayer: I’m very well aware of all the crazy 2240 mods out there– this was the reason I bought to this gun to begin with! Not sure what I want to do first, but I’ll definitely tweak something. It seems likely I’ll probably want to just buy another 2240 for modding and keep one of them mostly stock :-) The trigger on the 2240 seems like it could use some adjustments, that’s for sure :-)
    I see now that Pyramid is offering the gas spring for the CFX– man, that just kills me– I just got my CFX a few months ago and I surely would have gotten the gas spring if it had been available then… I hope Pyramid soon offers to mod existing CFX’s!
    I’ve been reading this blog for a few months now and have learned alot– I grew up hunting in Canada since I was a little kid, but moved to Texas in late 2001 and haven’t hunted since… I was quite happy to get my first Starling yesterday that was raiding my backyard bird feeder :-) Over the last couple of months I’ve been trying to make up for some lost time– bought my son (and 2 daughters) 2 Red Ryders and one Daisy 105 Buck for Christmas– my first BB gun was a 105 as well, although I was a year older than my 6 year old son at the time :-) I found tucked away in some packed goods a Crosman 781 I had bought back in `95 and have had some fun plinking with it in the backyard and also picked up a 1077 a month ago as well. I lost an auction last night for a Daisy Model 188 BB pistol– I had one when I was a teenager and really wanted to relive that experience :-)
    Anyway, glad to be on the blog and look forward to learning more from y’all! (heh, the Canadian in me cringes when I say y’all but after 6 years it kinda grows on ya!)

  • Dr. G. Says:

    SUMO,
    FYI, for what it’s worth, of the 10 different .25 pellets that I have put through my AirHog Condor, the most accurate have clearly been the H&N hollow points, even better than the Kodiaks (the pellet that Van recommends and uses to test these air rifles). These results are indoors (17 yards) and outdoors (20-30 yards), running a muzzle velocity of either 730 fps or 950 fps. I weigh my pellets, so these odd results cannot be explained by pellet variability. Even the round nose Eun Jin did better than the Kodiaks. I know that many air gun enthusiasts find the Kodiaks to be the most accurate, so it remains a mystery to me. – Dr. G.

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    TRC,

    I just realized that aperture in place of notch plate wouldn’t work too well in most break-barrels (the sights would be too far from you eyes). I guess that’s why they sell the ones that go on the scope groove.

    I understand: Scopes are neat (I love them for astronomy, too). I always liked them OK until they became a necessity for me at ever- decreasing distances. I’m still hopeful 10m isn’t too far:). At least I don’t have to worry about maiming a target because I was too vain to use a scope.

    We need BB’s help on your other questions; I’m curious about the details, too. I hate to admit it but I thought 10m AR sounded easy until I opened the package of AR’s and said “FUDGE” (no Life Bouy for me, thanks). I do know they use some form of aperture system, no scopes. Always thought it was unsupported, standing offhand, but there may be some variations. No matter what, I will go out of my way to watch the 10m AR Olympic events (if they’re available in this area), for sure. I read somewhere (probably BB’s blog) that they shoot “perfect” scores pretty often.

  • trc Says:

    BG_Farmer,

    When I was watching that video I was checking out their technique and it looked like they really tuck in their left elbow close to their body. This surprised me. I figured they would look like the standing little green plastic “Army Men” toy with his left elbow sticking all out and stuff LOL. :) When I shoot from a standiing position, my left elbow is sticking out like the Army Men toy guy but I think next time I shoot I’ll try from standing, offhand (back of fingers), irons, with that ‘elbow-in’ technique and see how well I can do.

    Like playing a musical instrument (I’ve played drums for 30 years now) I think becomiing an accurate shooter comes primarily down to practice, technique, and talent. Without good technique you end up hitting a barrier, no matter how much you practice. I’d like to learn decent technique early on before developing bad habits so I’ve been trying to pay attention to discussion or video on it. I like that B.B. talks quite a bit about technique and how he gets the results that he does instead of just being like “see, here is the photo of the target so this particular gun is about this accurate”. It’s great that he offers us springer-specific techniques to work on.

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    TRC,

    What they’re doing with their left elbows is providing a rigid support to the rifle with forearm, i.e., they aren’t holding any weight with the muscles of their left arms, just guiding it. One of BB’s blogs has a great set of pictures and explanations on this — (found it)30 august 2007 “Shooting a rifle offhand”.

    You really are doing it right. I get to practice a lot, but my techniques are horrible and sometimes hard to change. BB’s blog is a goldmine, as you discovered with the artillery hold already. I don’t think I would have been able to shoot a springer at all comfortably (I won’t say well) if he hadn’t provided so much of what usually takes time to learn the hard way.

  • DragonSlayer Says:

    Kevin:You have noticed what everyone does about 2240 trigger! Good news,Remove grips/remove the spring,(can be removed by hand) Now measure spring, Carefully compress it (by hand) Re measure,Try to make it about 1/8″ shorter. Reinstall & try it. (I dont measure any more Ive done so many) You can keep fine tuning spring untill you get the feel you like.(you can easily re streach spring too) Just be shure spring does not have any slack when installed (Gun wont cock) I dont even bother to disasemble &polish mating surfaces anymore!I have done this to all mine as well as 4 of my club members xx”s and we all agree IT WORKS!! I think you will be amazed at differance! Good luck! Tim.AKA Drag.Slay.

  • trc Says:

    BG_Farmer,

    Thanks for digging that post up for me. I’ve been trying to go through the archives when I have time but hadn’t come across that one yet. Ya, it makes total sense to me now and I feel pretty silly about how I thought you should be holding it.

    See, I blame the guy in the upper left of this photo for planting the seed of bad standing technique in my mind for years:

    http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2555549/2/istockphoto_2555549_green_army_men.jpg

    :P

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    TRC,

    Well, this is how we learn. A scope will cut your group size in half, and you’re already pretty small.

    Keep at it.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    TRC,

    I just read your message to BG_Farmer. Wow! You were shooting STANDING! The fact that your hands were rested makes little difference. Your entire body is a pendulum when you stand. If you went to a bench these groups would be smaller by half!

    An aperture is a peep sight. If you don’t know what that is, read here:

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/03/peep-sights.html

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Kevin,

    Living in Texas, I hope you make it to the Little Rock Airgun Expo in April.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    BG_Farmer and TRC,

    I can do some blogs on 10-meter rifle shooting if you like. Just tell me.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    TRC,

    I hope your rifle is not curved like the one you guide is holding?

    B.B.

  • DragonSlayer Says:

    BB.: Are there any airgun shows that you know of within about 500 mi. of S.C.?? Thanks, Tim.

  • DragonSlayer Says:

    BB., Feel really stupid to ask this, but going thru old blogs,ect. I really cant figure it out, so much conflickting info! Ok,SO, are BB. Pellitier& Mr. Tom Gaylord THE SAME !!(Im pretty shure they are!!) If this is a trade secret to keep us all guessing Ill understand!Thanks Tim.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Tim,

    I guess you joined us a few days too late. Read this blog:

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/10/who-am-i.html

    As far as airgun shows within 500 miles, the Roanoke show in November is the largest in the world. You have to attend this year.

    B.B.

  • DragonSlayer Says:

    BB., Did not mean anything by last ? Mr. Gaylord is a gift to this sport/hobby,But BB. is my favorite because of what he does for ALL of us out here in the airgun world!!Tim.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Tim,

    Please read the blog I sent you the link to.

    B.B.

  • DragonSlayer Says:

    BB.,Wanted to make it to Roanoke show,BADLY! but it was at same time as my BABY GIRLS wedding! My prioritys get mixed up by this hobby, but that time, I got them RIGHT!! (Did the wedding!) This year I really look forward to it,& meeting you personally!! CANT wait to attend my first airgun show!! Are there any shows even w/in 1000 mi. of S.C. in near future?? (Wife says I did so good w/ wed. I have pit pass to attend!)Thanks BB., Tim.

  • DragonSlayer Says:

    BB.,Wanted to make it to Roanoke show,BADLY! but it was at same time as my BABY GIRLS wedding! My prioritys get mixed up by this hobby, but that time, I got them RIGHT!! (Did the wedding!) This year I really look forward to it,& meeting you personally!! CANT wait to attend my first airgun show!! Are there any shows even w/in 1000 mi. of S.C. in near future?? (Wife says I did so good w/ wed. I have pit pass to attend!)Thanks BB., Tim.

  • trc Says:

    B.B.,

    Thanks! Ya, it was from standing but sort of hunched over with my elbows on the shelf in my shooting booth. Next time I shoot I’m going to do it without my elbows supported because I now feel like I have been pointed to your great tips on proper standing shooting techniques to work off of and I’m curious now to try them out! Also, it will be a great benchmark (no pun intended!) for how tight I can get the groups from standing with the irons versus a scope once I get one. I’ve done some shooting now from seated and from “standing w/ elbows resting” but from “pure standing” will be a good constant to measure everything else off of – a scope vs. irons, various pellets, gun breaking in, etc.

    LOL. Nope, my gun isn’t curved like the little green man’s. :D

    Yeah, an article on competitive 10 meter rifle shooting would be great (in case BG_Farmer doesn’t chime in and say so)! I’d be interested for sure.

  • trc Says:

    B.B.,

    I just want to make sure that I’m clear on something. I understand the artillery hold but when you describe shooting off of the “back of your fingers” instead of the flat of the palm (a modified artillery hold if-you-will), the left hand is in a fist with the forearm of the rifle resting on the “hairy-side” (sorry) of the fingers on top of the fist, correct?

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Tim,

    Okay, 1,000 miles. Little Rock at the end of April. Not half as large as Roanoke, but with some of the finest vintage and collectable airguns I’ve seen.

    Go here:

    http://www.bryanandac.com/new_page_8.htm#Airgun%20Shows

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    TRC,

    No, the left hand is flat and probably resting on a sandbag. That’s how I do it, but you can improvise.

    B.B.

  • DragonSlayer Says:

    BB. Sorry, thought,link was in ref. to airgun shows. Did not look close enough! After My computer illiterate a#% found it WOW!! WOULD NOT MATTER TO ME IF YOU WERE,SPITBALL HENREY!! YOU ARE THE BEST MY FRIEND!!!!!!!!!!! you are a genuine WEALTH of info. for ALL of us out here!! If you ever wonder,,,, just go to, who am I,& read reader comments,That should (hopefully) keep you up to the Im shure sometimes seemingly overwhelming task of keeping us ALL out here informed & educated!! Thanks SOOOOO much BB. for what you do for ALL of us. Tim!

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    TRC,

    Sorry, I stayed up too late last night, as it was…love the green army man. Doesn’t look anything like my position:). Also, I guess even mil-spec. allows barrel droop, at least for polymer barrels!

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    BB,

    Yes, please. Sign me up for a blog or two on olympic AR and pistol, too.

    Also, did you tight the breech block on your Hammerli 490? I don’t want to say anything more, since your testing is still underway — but I noticed the same thing you did (really) and tightened it up. I can just wait for the review to find out, too.

  • DragonSlayer Says:

    To All: tried another sight today,WOW, such negativity! Even going as low as personal atacks between members!! Were all here to pursue this great hobby, Let us all thank BB., for providing us with a a forum we can comfortably extcange info on w/out the BS. of some of these other sites!! Thanks BB. From ALL OF US!!! We all love ya, How about Mondays post??Im pretty shure its about DYI gas springs!! DOOOOHH . wrong again!! (MATTER OF TIME!!)You are the best(BB.)!!! Tim.

  • trc Says:

    B.B.,

    Oh…! Glad I asked. :P Thanks again.

  • Kevin Says:

    BB:
    I’d love to make the Little Rock show, but I’m in Austin, so it’s about an 8 hour drive from here, so not likely I’ll be going. Oddly enough, there’d be a better chance of me getting to the Roanoke show, as every couple of months I goto RTP,NC on business and it’s only about a 3 hour drive from there… only problem being is that it’s just before Halloween so I’d need to be sure I could be back for the kiddies!

    On the topic of my new 2240, I’ve got a question. It seems whenever I put a new CO2 in it the very first shot is very quiet and low velocity– the 2nd shot on is full strength– is this normal?

  • Icewater Says:

    Hi all,

    One question: I have a KWZ mini Uzi which shoots 0.2 plastic round BB at 450FPS. I cant break a wine bottle at watever distance.
    I am considering a Umarex CP99 which shoots lead pellet at 350FPS Max. Will that break wine bottles?
    Wine bottles are my enemies.

    Thanks

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    BG_Farmer,

    You will see what I said about the breech today.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Kevin,

    Shame on you! I go to Little Rock (6 hours) and so does Larry Hannusch from Houston (8 hours). So does Tim McMurray from California.

    Just teasing.

    Your 2240 sounds like it isn’t piercing the powerlet deeply enough. Are you using Pellgunoil with each powerlet? Try twisting the cap another tun when you install the next powerlet.

    B.B.

  • yamadogg Says:

    bb, hey sorry to bug you again but i’m wondering what to do with this p1. large pin in back is sliding around. is this common? just tap it back in or return for repairs? i understand if there is a conflict of interests here but if all they do in the repair shop is to “tap it back in”, then i think i can do that myself. however if there is more to it or its a quality control issue maybe i should return it. any help? still love the gun, yamadogg.

  • DragonSlayer Says:

    Kevin: Every co-2 cross. gun I own does not shoot full power on first shot. What happens is cartridge does not get pierced when first installed, It only gets pierced on first shot & it takes that shot to fill vaulve w/ gas. (You can install new cart. and remove it before first shot, & IT WILL NOT be pierced!) Just my exp. (I just tried it on one of my 2240,s)Also I ALWAYS do like BB. says & put a drop of Pell Gun oil on tip of cart!! ( Keeps seals & vaulve working!) P.S. did you get my post about free trigger job? Try it youll like it! Good shooting my friend! Tim.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    yamadogg,

    That’s the pin that holds the spring tube in place in the breech. I’ve had mine out when I lubed the piston and spring.

    If you can put a burr on the side of the pin, it will grab onto the frame and not slide. If you took the pin all the way out you could hammer it into an oval by one or two thousandths. That should hold it.

    Otherwise, back to the shop and they’ll probably do something similar.

    B.B.

  • Kevin Says:

    Dragonslayer and BB:

    No, I haven’t put any Pellgun oil on on the CO2– simply because I can’t find any locally! I’ve checked Academy, Cabelas, Sports Authority, a local gunshop and several Walmarts (after reading elsewhere that somebody said Walmart carried them). I ordered 3 tubes from Pyramid Air along with my new favorite pellet the Crosman Premier Ultra Magnum today :-)

    And yes DragonS I got your post about the free trigger tune and I will do it for sure!

    BTW, I used a screwdriver to tighten the cap on the 2240 as tight as seemed reasonable.

    Thanks for the input everybody!

  • DragonSlayer Says:

    KEVIN: Tim again! You should NEVER have to use screwdriver to load a new powerlet!! You can damage the seal on front of power valve! (Beleve me I have 2 bad valves sitting on my shelf now!!) I will admit ocasionaly you might have to resort to a screwdriver for removall! I always just “dry fire” first round to fill valve& then your good to go! I too have never found Pell Gun oil locally, seems really neglagent on Cross. because it is SOOO important for proper health for their co2 guns! 3 tubes,WOW! that will last you a LONG time!!Good shooting !Tim.

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