Big bore airgun hunt – Part 1

by B.B. Pelletier

As you know, I went big bore airgun hunting last week. I didn’t shoot anything myself, but I accompanied Eric Henderson to The Wildlife Ranch, located in the central Texas Hill Country. We sighted-in several different big bores and went on two exciting hunts. Many of you wrote that you are interested in this kind of hunting, so I want to explain it all to you.

Exotic game ranches
Texas is home to the largest concentration of exotic game ranches in the United States. On these ranches, game is stocked, bred, managed and turned loose on large hunting tracts where hunters can hunt them for a fee. This kind of hunting has been taking place for about 20 years and is rapidly growing in popularity because of the accessibility for hunters. The place we chose to hunt was The Wildlife Ranch in Mason, Texas.

Some of the animals on The Widlife Ranch are now extinct in their native lands as a result of poor game management regulations, so one important service the ranch provides is the repopulation of animals back into their native habitat. By a quirk of fate that the PETA folks will never admit, the exotic hunting programs in the United States have saved several species from extinction and are now responsible for the creation of a second chance for game in their original lands.

Another benefit of exotic game ranches is that they allow much broader hunting seasons. The game laws of a state do not extend to animals not native to that state, so the animals on the exotic game ranches are managed by the ranches. By another not-so-strange quirk of fate, these ranches have been able to create large herds of game while making it possible for hunters to hunt most of the year. Since they manage the nutrition and health of the animals, as well as providing “safe haven” tracts, where no hunting is possible, the ranches have created the perfect environment for growth. The result is a series of large ranches that offer hunting opportunities year-round for hunters who are willing to pay.

Let’s talk airguns
I’ll tell you much more about this later, but now I want to get to the airgun side of the hunt. Eric Henderson was hunting with a variety of Quackenbush rifles. He had taken two rams with his .308 the day before we arrived. One was taken at 112 yards and the second was at 147 yards. For those who think air rifles are for short-range only, here’s your comparison.

Eric’s larger-caliber Quackenbush .457 Long Action has a lower muzzle velocity that comes with a more pronounced trajectory. He shoots 300-grain .457 lead bullets that give energies in the mid-400 foot-pound region and are perfect for animals the size of a large mule deer.


Examining a Quackenbush .457 long-action with a special-order long barrel.

We confirmed Eric’s zero with a couple shots the night before the hunt at the house where we stayed. The house was located on a ranch of several hundred acres, and safe shooting was possible in the side yard, located a few feet from where the trucks were parked.

Disaster strikes!
After the principal rifle was confirmed, I set up a scoped Sam Yang 909S for Paul Capello, who was to take the second hunt. The first two shots went well, but after the fill from my 12-year-old hand pump, the exhaust air blew a huge cloud of dust onto the pump shaft, killing it. There was no backup to fill the rifle because the Korean adaptor is non-standard, so Paul had to make other arrangements.

That pump has served me honorably for over 12 years, but now it needs an overhaul. And this is a sharp lesson in adapters and the need to have a backup plan.

As it turned out, Eric had a Quackenbush Destroyer–a one-of-a-kind .457 light rifle built with a dump valve. It gets but a single shot before refilling, with the tradeoff that it produces 950 f.p.s. and 287 foot-pounds with a .457 Hornady round ball from a 4-lb. gun! Eric has the rifle set up with a three-leaf folding express rear sight, so Capello was going to hunt the old-fashioned way!

I fired the Destroyer with a 300-grain bullet and noted that it had a very light trigger and quite a kick with that heavy bullet. With round balls that weigh less than half as much, the recoil is lighter.

Paul became accustomed to the rifle within several shots. There was no sight-in required because the express sights are fixed and never move.

The daylight faded as we finished our preparations for an early hunt the next morning. Paul, being a New York resident, had gotten a provisional Texas 5-day hunting license for $45, but there is no additional licensing requirement for hunting exotic game. We were set for the hunt!

70 Responses to “Big bore airgun hunt – Part 1”

  • Anonymous Says:

    Rob,

    The siphon tube for CO2 you asked about can be found at a welding gas supplier. You probably know that you can also just invert the bottle to get liquid CO2.

    Derrick

  • Lloyd Says:

    B.B.,
    Great info! Bummer about your trusty hand pump, but maybe it will lead to blog about rebuilding hand pumps.
    I didn’t realize Mr. QB was quite quite so prolific in his variety of designs. How long has he been building big bores? And a 147 yd shot says something about the accuracy capabilities.
    Thanks,
    Lloyd

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    BB,

    Those are some serious BB guns:). I can see the charm in hunting with a slow, arcing single-shot: must be something like muzzle loaders, except even more challenging, especially with open sights. What is the maximum effective range for some of the big bores, i.e., where does the energy become too low for a humane shot on medium sized game? I see people online bragging about making long shots with modern centerfires, as if that makes them good hunters, but it strikes me as just the opposite in most cases…you don’t use live animals for target practice.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Lloyd,

    Dennis Quackenbush has been building big bores since at least 1993. That’s when I first saw him with one at an airgun show.

    There were other hobby makers before Dennis, but no serious maker has been in business longer than him.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    BG_Farmer,

    Eric Henderson has killed ground squirrels out to 185 yards with his .308. other big bore shooters have shot groups at 500 yards with a .45-caliber rifle.

    The practical limit is the distance at which you can keep 100 percent of your shots inside a 6-inch circle. That differs for each hunter. The gun has enough power to go beyond the range at which shooters can accurately use it.

    B.B.

  • Mr B. Says:

    Good morning B.B. Interesting looking hardware. I’m not a black powder shooter, but these big bores seem to be their kissing cousins as far as performance goes without all the “mess” of the black powder. I’m not talking about the modern breach loaders with their sabot bullets. Would you point me to a bok or two about black powder guns. Thanks Mr B.

    Rebuilding HPA pumps, yes a how to do that please.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Mr. B.,

    Glad to. Blackpowder Loading Maunal, Blackpowder Gun Digest, Blackpowder Handbook are three of my favorite basic books. They are written by Sam Fadala who is the best modern writer on the subject, in my opinion. They are all published by Digest Books, Inc. (DBI), so they should be easy to locate.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Rafael,

    That is an uncommon Haenel rifle. It’s a copy of a BSA underlever rifle and it has a loading tap. I have no information about this airgun except to note that it is uncommon in the U.S.

    I recommend you go on this forum and post the same message there. You will be talking to the top airgun collectors in the world.

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/405945/

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    OK, Thanks!

    I’ll do that, and if you’re interested on this, I’ll post my findings!

    Rafael

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    BB,

    Everything in Texas must be bigger if ground squirrels qualify as medium sized:).

    I am respectfully skeptical about a 500 yard shot, no matter how good the group looks (complicating real conditions aside), if the starting energy of 400 fpe is typical (the little .30-30 > 1800), although I realize the larger projectiles work through a different mechanism on target. Trying to understand, not argue, although I fear its coming out that way:).

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    BG_Farmer,

    I wasn’t talking about shooting game at 500 yards. I was referring to the longest distance at which targets have been shot. Note that I mentioned groups.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Rafael,

    Please do post what you learn about your Haenel. I would enjoy learning something.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    BB,
    I was looking through some old winchester catalogues yesterday and saw a rether luxurious looking model 450A. Do you know anything about it? The price tag said $100 and it shoots 530fps and has diopeter sights.
    Shadow Express dude

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    SED,

    The Winchester 450 was a Diana model 50 underlever. It got turned into the later model 45 breakbarrel.

    B.B.

  • Walther Falcon Hunter guy Says:

    I was going through the old posts yesterday, BB, and I found a reference to you shooting 4831 in your Garand.

    You need to stop doing that.

    Next, you need to gauge your operating rod and see how badly it is bent from your abuse of this fine mechanism.

    Once you have either straightened or replaced your op rod, you need to start using 4895 in a safe load for your Garand reloads, not 4831. 4831 burns way too slow and yields port pressures that are way too high for the Garand. So does 4350; so do all the other deterrent-coated slow-burners. The end result of using these powders, if you are lucky, is a bent operating rod that can be straightened back out. If you are unlucky it will break.

    Other suitable powders, as well as 4895, are 4064 and 3031. No, you won’t get 3000 fps from a 150-grain bullet with any of the three recommended powders; on the other hand, if the 2700 fps you are getting from your Garand with suitable loads of any of these three powders pushing a 150-grain bullet is not enough then the answer is to shoot a gun that is enough, not hotrod your Garand.

    –WFH

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B.

    How interesting about how the exotic game ranches allow species to regenerate. I take it that these guns are single-shot. It sounds like with their caliber there is a kick even with the PCP design but it must still be less than firearms. Is that right?

    Kevin, I have a question about a Winchester 94 30-30 which you’ve had experience with. I’ve put 60 rounds or so through mine at the range with only the odd hiccup. But, I have dry-fired and cycled hundreds of snap caps at home and maybe one quarter of the time there will be problems where the the round fails to feed, often by jumping completely out of the magazine when the lever is cocked, or upon ejection it will hit me in the head.

    Surely, this can’t be normal behavior for a gun that is famous for its reliability. The A Zoom snap caps I’m using, unlike other models, are supposed to be machined to exact dimensions, but I’m wondering if the weight is different enough from real cartridges to make a difference. Anyway, I was wondering how your experience compares.

    Matt61

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    WFH,

    Thanks for the observation. I just looked and I’m out of powder, so I’ll get 4895 when I order more.

    I wasn’t shooting hot loads. They were in the 2750 range.

    I do have 3031, but I like it for other loads, so I’ll try the 4895 for the Garand. Don’t want to bend an operating rod!

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Matt,

    The Destroyer shooting a 300-grain bullet kicks about as hard as a Winchester 94 .30-30. On round ball it kicks less.

    All these guns are single-shots.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B.

    Jeff Cooper is a strong advocate of sling support in his book and has me convinced. It does indeed help with stability. So, why aren’t they used more for airguns? I can see that a lot of airgun mechanisms rule out the prone position. But the sling is supposed to work for sitting as well. Cooper references a WWII battle called the Battle of the Tenaru River in the Guadalcanal campaign that saw long-distance shooting in the sitting position with the aid of slings. Anyway, it seems like it would have an application in field target where they use other aids like straps and bags for the legs.

    Wayne, I forgot to mention the value of slings for the various positions. They wouldn’t work too well for your Marlin, but they might liven things up considerably with your Ruger bolt-action–although I don’t know that they would replace your recliner as an aid. Anyway, Cooper is very good at explaining their use, and I acquired a cotton military web sling for essentially nothing.

    Matt61

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Matt,

    Think about it. On a Garand the sling is attached to a tough one-piece stock. On many airguns it’s attached to the barrel. It doesn’t work that way.

    If a sling can be attached to a one-piece stock on an air rifle it will work just as well as on the Garand, but there are very few airguns that permit it.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    WFH,

    Since you’re knowledgeable about Garand loads, do you happen to know of a suitable factory load? The knowledge out there is very sketchy and equivocal. Black Hills won’t even tell me what powder they use which I guess is a proprietary matter. Anyway, the word is that Federal Gold Medal and Black Hills match ammo in the 155 grain range works because match grade powders are supposed to have a medium burn rate. Federal American Eagles are also supposed to be okay although someone chronographed them as a little hot.

    It would be nice to try out some safe match grade ammo sometime although with 60 million rounds of surplus Greek ammo at the CMP, it’s not urgent. The Greek stuff was getting 2 MOA for four shots at hundred yards for your humble servant on his first time out at that distance, and as far as I’m concerned, that means it must be fantastic.

    Matt61

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B.

    I can see how a barrel attachment wouldn’t work. Looking at the PA list of field target guns, they all look like they have one piece stocks. Except for the breakbarrel and underlevers, it seems, from outside perspective, that it might be doable if one were interested unless maybe the stocks are too short. They are certainly shorter in the forearm than the Garand.

    Matt61

  • Walther Falcon Hunter guy Says:

    To be honest, Matt, I haven’t kept up with what the factories have available.

    Hornady offers a 168 grain “A-Max M1 Garand”, but they want forty bucks a box on their web site. Still, it sure sounds interesting.

    Hope this helps.

    –WFH

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    BB,

    I did understand about you were talking about groups at 500 yards, but I thought the implication was that if one could get a 6″ group at 500 yards (not unthinkable for a few, just less than MOA) the energy would be sufficient, with which (perhaps imagined) assertion I was taking issue. Anyway, I’ll stop bothering you about it, since I’m not likely to go big bore airgun hunting any time soon:).

  • Anonymous Says:

    WOT (Way Off Topic)

    BB,

    Re- our discussion about odorized green gas for airsoft gas guns:

    I wonder if anyone has thought of replacing the garlic odor with the odor of nitrocellulose gunpowder, resulting in more realistic gaming action. I imagine this would run the price of a bottle considerably higher than $10-12.

    Just a thought (I know…I have way too much time on my hands),

    Joe B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    bb, off topic post here, and this might qualify as one of those questions that your not particulary fond of. I am looking for an air rifle under $400 that can deliver very good accuracy and decent power out to 60 yards ( I was thinking disco). I am coming from a .177 model 34 and I feel I am ready to advance. Although I feel I have done pretty well with the artillery hold, my best shot group is 3″ at
    50 yards. With a .177 at this range, your only hope is head shots, and I do not feel this gun satisfying my needs ( if there is any hope for hunting with a .177 at 50 yards to begin with). With the disco at longer ranges did you notice tighter groups with the .22? Also what RWS ammo do you feel would be most accurate with this gun, and how accurate compared to jsb and premiers? Thanks a lot got to get back to work daylight almost gone…
    John

  • Anonymous Says:

    btw recently noticed another john on the blog so from now on I’ll be john from jersey (don’t tell anyone I have air guns might be convicted for life… Who knows in this state.)

    Thanks
    John from Jersey

  • kevin Says:

    Matt,

    feeding/ejection problems with your 94

    My 94 was made in 1960. Well broken in before it was given to me in the early 1970′s. Never had a problem with feeding a cartridge. I’ve never used “snap caps”. What are they for? If I don’t cant the rifle after firing I can hit myself with an ejected cartridge. One hot one on the forehead will remind you to cant the rifle for quite awhile. What lube do you use on your action?

    kevin

  • Anonymous Says:

    Sounds like big bore PCP’s support the Taylor Knock Out Down theory. Even a .22 Hornet puts out over 700 ft lbs.

    But then I guess just sitting up in a tree and dropping a bowling ball on a critter would do some serious damage.

    Matt61,

    I’ve had the same experience in a Win 94 with the Zoom snap caps, so I would fault them, not the rifle.

    Volvo

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Jersey John,

    This isn’t hard at all! And the Disco is right. That’s based on price, but also on accuracy.

    In this month’s American Rifleman they tested a .22 Disco at 50 yards. With open sights the average group size for 15 5-shot groups was about 1.32″. A scope will cut that in half. I have shot under a half-inch with both calibers of Disco at 50 yards, though the .22 was slightly more accurate. At 25 yards I couldn’t tell a difference.

    I have to say abandon the RWS ammo with the Disco. If you can’t get JSBs, use Kodiaks and Premiers. The RWS pellets will add 30 percent to your group size with the Disco, in my experience.

    RWS guns do better with RWS pellets.

    B.B.

  • Randy-in-VA Says:

    Re: Slings. I’ve got a Gamo Gun Buddy Rifle Sling that I use to tote my G1 Xtreme. I works well for that, but I haven’t used it as part of my hold. Somehow, I don’t think that restraining the barrel of a break barrel would work well.

    BB – Monday I ordered the parts for the 717 from Daisy. That has to be the easiest, most pleasant dealing that I’ve ever done over the phone. So far, all I’ve done is scrape the plastic rear sight and glue out of the well between the two halves of the receiver. I butchered the paint, so I ordered replacements. I also got the seals, so that I can replace them. I’ll start taking pictures from here on out.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Randy,

    Good for you! I’m glad the project is working out well.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Kevin,

    That’s good to know about canting the rifle. I take it that you cant it to the right for a right-handed shooter. The canting maneuver is not quite like the cowboy movies or cowboy action videos of people working the lever and firing continuously from the shoulder, but it’s obviously worthwhile.

    I guess snap caps are a new invention. They are dummy rounds made out of plastic with a spring inside that will give under the impact of a firing pin. The A Zooms are precision machined from aluminum and take the strike of the firing pin on a piece of plastic. The purpose is to rest the firing pin for bolt-actions and semi-autos or, for people like me who can’t get out to the range much, to practice dry-firing, working the action, and playing cowboy. I sent the 94 to Midwest Gunworks (recommended by Winchester) for a tune-up and have since sprayed the gun with Ballistol periodically.

    Volvo, thanks for the confirmation. I had assumed since the A Zooms are machined to the exact size for their caliber that they would be okay, but there is obviously some factor other than size at work; weight is my guess. Anyway, I feel better about my 94. I started to have my suspicions when I had feeding problems–much slighter–in my bolt-action Savage which performs fine with real cartridges.

    Matt61

  • Anonymous Says:

    WFH,

    Yes, I had heard about that new product by Hornady, but the price made me laugh. That’s right up there with the DRT powder bullets. I guess I’ll stick with the Greek surplus.

    Matt61

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Volvo,

    That reference to TKO was interesting, thanks; gave me some stuff to read. I’ll have to check the wildlife regs and see if I can carry bowling balls in the woods during deer season:).

    By the way, I took your warning about my impending decline into old age to heart and scoped the old clunk, mainly because I was still curious about whether the tune cured its tendency to eat scopes. So far so good: POI used to move with every shot, now nothing for a few dozen. Should have it in good shape by the time my sight is dimmed, T-6 years and counting.

  • kevin Says:

    Matt,

    Thanks for teaching me something today. Snap caps.

    Good for you using ballistol. I swear by it. In addition to being a great protectant for wood and metal it’s a great lubricant. What many people don’t know and what ballistol doesn’t extoll is it’s ability to function at minus 20 degrees (maybe more). I used many other lubricants in our Colorado high country and ballistol is the best I’ve found.

    The person that “tuned” my 94 died almost 20 years ago. Mitch was one in a million. He “jewelled” the action and never charged me a thing for all the work he did. What a master craftsman he was.

    Outside of hunting season my 94 was always on the saddle to be able to shoot broke cows, coyotes or a snowshoe for lunch or dinner. Even a grouse every now and then which isn’t much of a shot (most times you can hit ‘em with a rock). Lightweight, straight shooting, reliable in any weather. Good gun. You own one of the good ones.

    kevin

  • Anonymous Says:

    Hello B.B. and everyone:
    Can I have a 20lb CO2 tank completely filled with CO2, but laying on the floor for months rather than standing up??? It’s because the one that I want to buy doesn’t has a base capable of keeping it standing… Will the valve get damaged or something similar????
    Cheers,
    Jony

  • Anonymous Says:

    Hi BB, I wash hoping you could answe my question. How come some scope have a looong objective lens? is this just a sunshade? Also, if It isnt a sunshade, which scopes specifically are this long? O, and by long i mean like 2-4 in straight.
    Thanks!

  • Anonymous Says:

    Oh, and something else… A friend of mine asked me if we could connect to my “future Talon SS” one of those 68cubic inches/ 4500psi CO2 paintball tanks (they are very round)… I told him that the size of the bottle wouldn’t let me see clearly even if I had the Tri-Rail base installed…. What can you tell me about that?? Can the Airforce adapter stand it??
    Cheers,
    Jony

  • Anonymous Says:

    Kevin,

    The picture you painted of riding with the 30-30 across your saddle put I smile on my face. I know this is the Internet, but please don’t ever tell us if you really live in an apartment in New York City and work as an accountant.

    Bg-farmer,

    At one point I calculated the TKO index for all my air rifles.
    I believe for it to make sense I moved the decimal point. Can’t recall for sure. The theory does seem to hold water.

    Bowling balls over 9lbs are allowed, however a real man will only use one over 20 lbs rolled off an AR lower and …

    The only down side to a scope is that I can see how bad I shake. With open sights I appear rock solid.

    Don’t fret about your vision, but wait till you learn what else happens. : )

    Volvo

  • wayne Says:

    Matt 61,

    I was eying the harness in B.B.s video that Dick at After Hours Target co. had… but the situps are helping so much that I might not need it… I’ve been swimming in the mornings too!!

    MAC 1 USFT REPORT!!!

    She came yeaterday and last night I put all the adjustable parts on it, and stole the 8-32x56AO off the Marlin 336..(elk seasons over anyway) Using the knee block that Billy had for his bad neck, was fine for desk top scope sight in, but I couldn’t get comfortable in the sitting FT position.. So I took it off and put a patch of foam on the mount and then it nested on my folded elbow pretty well.

    Tonight, at 20 yards indoors Randy tested the Disco with “barrel weight” that also makes it very quite… and somehow a little more accurate.. (3/8″ – 5 shot groups a few times) in that 25 shot 1,800 to 1,200 pound, non “valve lock” range.. While I finally got some time to try the USFT with the scope tuned in..

    The Disco was no competition for the USFT, so Randy got out my Air Arms S410 .177 and put it in the bench rest. I settle in the “Wayzboy” and shot off knee.. We shot 5 shot groups…Randy was shooting real quick with the side lever and still his largest group was 1/2″, and that was when he loaded two pellets by accident, one 1/4″ left of center, the other 1-1/2″ low and left. He had one 3/16″ one hole group, and most were 1/4″ – 5/16″. I too, had a 3/16″ one hole 5 shot, most 1/4-5/16″ and 3 at 3/8″ (All measured outside to outside)..

    The Air Arms S410 and USFT are very close to as accurate as each other, at least at 20 yards indoors… So far for this cowboy..I’m really impressed with the Mac 1 USFT, and still impressed with my special AAs410, it might be able to keep up.

    Here is a link to my photo bucket:

    http://s424.photobucket.com/albums/pp325/wayne177/

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • wayne Says:

    That bucket link doesn’t work try this one :
    s424.photobucket.com/albums/pp325/wayne177/

    Just leave off the http://

    Wayne

  • Anonymous Says:

    RE: odorized green gas

    The order comes from a volatile sulfur compound. It needs to be a gas at room temp and pressure; and it needs to be very pungent. Its just a couple of parts per million in the gas. There is a very small list of chemicals that fit the requirement.

    Propane and other forms of natural gas are themselves orderless and colorless. The sulfur compound is added so that everyone would recognize the smell. 25 different smells would be confusing.

    Herb

  • Anonymous Says:

    Just for fun:

    http://www.southbank-design.co.uk/turkeyshoot/index.htm

    wayne – don’t use your S410- you’ll hurt your ‘puter

    Volvo

  • wayne Says:

    Volvo,

    After I figured out you have to hit them in the chest, not the head, duh!! I got it up to 9437… catch them at the top of the bounce…

    lots of fun…
    Wayne

  • wayne Says:

    Volvo,

    make that 11,287…

    and the USFT is laying on the desk next to the mouse…. hmmmmm

    What have you done, my friend?

    Wayne

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Jony,

    What are you worrying about? CO2 tanks don’t need to be stored in any particular orientation.

    I have CO2 tanks stored on their sides and there are no problems.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Long scopes,

    Those are sunshades. They keep the sun’s rays off the objective lens.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Jony,

    The AirForce CO2 adaptor can tolerate pressures up to about 1,200 psi, and then the valve starts locking up.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    BB

    Where did you get the figures for AirForce CO2 adapter, please? I know on the TAG, folks are running HPA on those adapters at levels higher than 1200psi with no other modification.

    I called AirForce to ask specifically about what the CO2 Adapter could handle and they said that they have conducted no testing on the matter.

    Rob in NC

  • Anonymous Says:

    Rob in NC,
    BB just makes things up sometimes. Best not to question.

  • Anonymous Says:

    RE: Anonymous At November 20, 2008 7:38 AM

    That’s insulting!

    B.B. is giving us the benefit of his experience for nothing.

    Rob in NC-
    My advice: Don’t be an idiot. Use CO2 with CO2 equipment, and for HPA use HPA equipment. The overdesign is your safety margin.

    If you want to drive on bald tires fine, just let me know so I can stay off the road that day.

    Herb

  • wayne Says:

    RE: Anonymous At November 20, 2008 7:38 AM

    Why are you here reading, then?

    Just to be a poop…it looks like!

    Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Rob,

    Well, I certainly didn’t test it! Not with an AirForce CO2 adaptor, anyway. But I did test it in a Quackenbush Brigand, and also in a Quackenbush XL and one or two Crosman guns, besides. My observation is that, if the valve return spring is set to close with CO2 at about 850 psi, then it will also start locking up when air is pressurized beyond 1,200 psi.

    Now I did take a Brigand all the way to 1,500 psi in a test, but it started losing velocity after ABOUT 1,200 psi – just like the other CO2 guns I tested this same way.

    You see, Rob, CO2 doesn’t change in nature from time to time or from place to place. What is true today will be true tomorrow. Knowing that, it is possible to predict with reasonable accuracy how CO2 will behave at any time.

    And air that’s run through a CO2 valve also behaves in a predictable way.

    Valve spring are the same. They don’t change over time or when used by different people. A valve of a given size and seat angle, and powered by a given return spring will always behave the same.

    So – knowing how CO2 behaves, how air behaves in relation to CO2 and how valves behave, it’s a pretty straight shot to make the assumption I did.

    You can do the test if you like and I will be glad to have you publish the results here as a guest blogger. But I get about a hundred different questions each and every day, and when I answer them I don’t often give the background support because I don’t have the time.

    But don’t let that stop you or anyone else from asking. I’m happy to give the complete explanation for my answers, just as I am happy to admit when I make a mistake. Well, maybe not TOO happy about that!

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B.
    Thank you as always sir… Very helpful… Take care…
    Cheers,
    Jony

    P.S.: “November 20, 2008 7:38 AM”… if you are not satisfied with the things said here, just don’t even bother… What’s wrong with you??

  • Anonymous Says:

    Herb

    Without trying to start an argument, let me say that your comment ‘Dont be an idiot’ is unfounded and rude. I have more than a little bit of experience with airguns and have several PCP conversions based off CO2 guns. I’m running HPA tanks on a couple CO2 guns now as does many, many other ‘idiots’.

    BB

    Thanks for the explanation. I’m glad to see you realized I wasnt trying to butt horns with you and simply was looking for clarification on the issue. I’ve seen reports of people using up to 2000psi regulated output on the HPA tanks with good results, but then again, I’m unsure of the power wheel setting and other variables.
    I’ve been on a quest for some time now to get as many shots as possible out of my Talon. The Multimeter tank velocity is a little low for what I’d like and I dont much care for CO2. I’ve looked into the HPA arena and found the numbers to be consistent with what I am looking for, but the aesthetics to be somewhat less than ideal.
    I can appreciate that your experience has been different but unfortunately I have not tested the adapter with HPA and have only posts I’ve seen to go on, hence my question.

    I am contemplating going to a HPA setup on my Talon. Should I choose to go that route, I have a couple of tanks I can use with varying reg outputs that I can report on.

    Rob in NC

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Rob,

    For now that may be all that can be done. However, I have peeked into R&D and I've seen a power controller that will revolutionized the airgun industry – if it ever gets to market.

    I haven't had the opportunity to test it as much as I'd like, but the little I did do convinced me it will be as good as any regulator – maybe better!

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Wayne

    14073 2nd try – just think what I could do with a S410

    : )

    volvo

  • Mr B. Says:

    Hi B.B. Re "I've looked into the R&D and seen a power controller that will revolutionize the airgun industry." How about giving us a peek maybe, please. I notice you said power controller rather than regulator. A Freudian slip? I think there are alot of us that want what Rob in NC wants. A decient price point and they'll sell like the Benjamine Discovery. Go to bat for us B.B. cause this will be another home run.

    Wayne: maybe this, unknown to us at this time, power controller would make your other S410 into a magic one–interested? Just some thoughts Mr B.

  • .22 multi-shot Says:

    BB,

    Great, new power controller! Another cliff hanger like the Benjamin Discovery, LOL!

    .22 multi-shot

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Mr. B.,

    Did you ever read Uncle Wiggily as a child?

    Sometimes you just have to be patient.

    B.B.

  • wayne Says:

    Volvo,

    Why did you do that, now I have to try and beat that… I'll be goofing off for hours to even come close..

    Yes!! Volvo you had better "Come on Down" cause your the next contestant on.. "Shoot the AAS410 in the Wazyboy Chair".. applause.. Yes, folks Volvo will be shooting for an all paid vacation in a dirty tent, along the open sewer in a lovely border town south of SAN DIEGO, CALIFORINNNAAAA…
    more applause….

    We will be right back after a word from the people who make the best lead pellets in the world, JSB.. stay "Exactly" tuned… and we'll be right back..

    Now, do you want to be a member of the "Ashland Air Rifle Range & Rentals"? UNLIMITED GROWTH POTENTIAL!!

    Wayne

  • Anonymous Says:

    To Rob in NC-

    Sorry if you thought my “idiot” remark was a personal attack. I was trying to give you what I would term a “wake up” call.

    CO2 and PCP equipment run at two different pressure levels. Using CO2 equipment at PCP pressures is dangerous. Who knows if it is really safe until a number of such units are tested with the proper techniques and equipment to failure. With the failure data you’d have sound engineering knowledge on which to base a decision. It just seems unwise to risk injury to save a few dollars by not buying the right equipment.

    The chemistry lab taught me to be a wuss. The time to think about safety is before the “accident.” As my now dead step father (demo man in air force)used to say – “There are old demolition men, and there are bold demolition men, but there are no old, bold, demolition men.”

    Herb

    PS – I’ve done some dumb things that I wish someone had whacked me on the head before I did them. Like I remember using a hand mixer to whip up bubbles for my daughter’s bubble bath. It would have been somewhat less stupid if she hadn’t been in the tub. Seemed funny at the time till my wife pointed out how dangerous the act was. I got away with it once, but I never did it again. So just because you have gotten away with it so far doesn’t mean that pushing the envelope is a good thing.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Herb

    Yes, sir… I likely did react a bit defensively on the comment. Your warning is not without merit and should be heeded.

    Personally, I have a great respect for HPA and PCP. I do light modifications on some of my PCP guns and CO2 to HPA, but I am normally not one to push the envelope. When using HPA, I tend to keep things under 950psi.

    Even with my DAQ 308, I modded it…but for LOWER power to shoot around 80fpe for small game. I’m a bit bewildered by those that beef up their guns way beyond factory specs… just not my thing I suppose though I know that some guns are a bit over-engineered… especially the DAQ’s.

    So… point taken, sir and my apologies for being on the defensive.

    vr
    Rob in NC

  • wayne Says:

    Mr. B.

    Maybe it’s already in my Air Arms S410 and it’s being copied…mine might have been one of a few test ones, that got sold by accident… and since I told Chris at PA. about the way the power adjuster on mine goes the opposite way of the others I had, he dug into it and found an Air Arms trade secret and passed it along to Crossman though that masked man Tom Gaylord…

    Pass it on.. to all the blogs… we’ll make it true by default…

    Wouldn’t that be good news, a .22 cal Disco that gets 130 shots at 800fps, on a 2,000 lb. fill of air, with no valve lock!!! And since they know they will sell a billion of them, they will retail for $325 with out pump!!

    Don’t remember you heard it here first!

    Wayne

  • .22 multi-shot Says:

    Wayne,

    No, $195 without the pump, $325 with the pump (they’ve also Discovered [pun intended] a new manufacturing secret to bring the price down) LOL!

    .22 multi-shot

  • wayne Says:

    .22 multi-shot

    Say, I’ve been wondering… multi-shot, are you a AA s410 .22 or RWS 850 AirMagnum? OR?

    We might as well add a 10 shot mag to the disco while were dreaming… then the $325 will fly with the masses, right?

    Since we the consumers call the shots, (pun intended as well), with the decision makers at Crossman, as B.B. discussed before, it’s a done deal! Right B.B.
    Now we just have to wait, and wait and wait and….

    Wayne

  • AzPete Says:

    Hi Tom,

    Well, The GrandSon’s and I no more than got our new Tanon SS home than we fell in love with a beautiful Swedish piece from FX, the Cyclone. I could find very little in your archives concerning FX or the Cyclone in particular. Just based upon what it’s got going for it, barrel,action etc. I don’t see anything I don’t like. I’m just curious what your impressions were of the line in general.

    Also, You mentioned AirHogs had a bloop tube avaiable that would reduce the noise on the Talon SS futhuer. Is this a shroud that is attached to the existing shroud? A little info would be helpful.

    The DVD that came with the Talon SS had no other than you doing the instructions. The Grandson’s were thrilled! They watched it twice and had tons of questions. We are all very happy with rifle, we scoped it with Center Points 4-16×56 with red/Green reticle. At 30 yards she’s hole on hole accurate if you can hold her still. Lots of fun to shoot didn’t even mind having to pick up a scuba tank after pumping up one tank full. Just call me lazy. Thanks for the great info, The G-Son’s say Hi.

    Pete

    PS. Which of Pyramyd’s chrongraphs are the best?

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    AZ Pete,

    The FX rifles have been hard to get because they are so expensive and the importer doesn’t bring in that many.

    FX makes a good PCP, except for the semiauto. It had a lot of teething problems in the beginning. I think they do work now, but I’m not sure.

    The Airhog bloop tube attaches in place of the end cap. read this report:

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/11/surprise-quiet-condor.html

    The gun in that report is a Condor, but the SS frame is identical except for the scope base.

    I have an Alpha Chrony that I use more other than my Oehler 35P. I do so because it works very well, and it is far more convenient to set up.

    Hi to the boys.

    B.B.

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