by B.B. Pelletier
Today, I’m going to the airgun show in Little Rock, so my blogs will be posted today and Friday, but I won’t be available to answer questions. I’m asking you more experienced hands to watch out for the new readers’ questions, if you will. Thanks for your help!
According to the box, the SIG Sauer SP 2022 BB pistol came in, it has BAXS, which stands for Ballistic Accuracy Extreme System. In other words, a form of Hop-Up! I was asked on this blog some time back if Hop-Up could be applied to a steel BB gun, and I said I didn’t know. Apparently it can, and this pistol is one of the first to do so.
What is Hop-Up?
Hop-Up is a device that puts a backspin on a round ball so it will fly farther and straighter due to the Magnus effect. It’s the principle behind the major-league fastball. Now, it has apparently been applied to a real BB gun. I will be very interested to see how accurate this pistol is, because Hop-Up does improve the accuracy of a 6mm plastic ball. I can’t think of why it wouldn’t also work with steel BBs, except that they have quite a bit more kinetic energy concentrated in a smaller projectile, and that might cause them to chew through the rubber pads in the mechanism. We’ll see.
Velocity
With the KWC BBs supplied, I got an average of 345 f.p.s. The low was 336 and the high was 354. Shooting was done at 30-second intervals to allow the gun to warm up from the CO2 cooling.
With Daisy BBs the average was 339 f.p.s. with a low of 332 and a high of 346. Shooting was done with a 30-second interval.
Velocity
The magazine holds 23 BBs, so it’s possible to shoot that many times in quick succession. I tried that several times and saw the following effect. The first shot of Daisy BBs went about 342 f.p.s. Velocity climbed up to 360 f.p.s. in about five shots. Velocity then fell off regularly with each shot, until shot number 23 was down around 309-312 f.p.s.
Maximum shots per CO2 cartridge
The maximum number of shots at greater than 300 f.p.s. is somewhere above 130. The gun was at 312 f.p.s. at shot 130 and at 268 f.p.s. at shot 145. I was shooting fast, which results in fewer shots per cartridge, so I can say this particular pistol will get at least 130 shots per cartridge. That’s quite a lot – almost double my prediction of 70.
Jam!
Once, when I’d pulled the trigger almost to the breaking point, I didn’t fire. By relaxing the trigger, I jammed the mechanism. There’s a positive tubular shuttle that pushes the BB forward (into the BAXS mechanism, I presume). To clear the jam I simply removed the magazine and the loose BB dropped out. This is an airsoft trait, and I expected it from the design of the gun. I tried to force it to happen a second time but was unable.
The front of the magazine with the movable shuttle sticking out. When the trigger is pulled, this part pushes the BB into the rear of the barrel, where the BAXS presumably stops it.
This pistol flexes in my hand as I shoot it. The magazine is also loose in the well and rattles a little. But the next test will be accuracy and we’ll see what effect, if any, this has.
Hi BB,
I have allot of experience with the Magnus effect. This pistole should have longer range and superior accuracy than another pistol with the same muzzle velocity, but the accuracy within the “extended” portion of its range will be questionable. It should also have greater down range velocity than an normal air pistol of the same MV. At maximum range, the BB should vier off in a somewhat random direction, and if you do not hold the pistol correctly, the BB will curve during flight. Another neat part of the Magnus effect is that BB’s will fly straight, and not in a ballistic arch. For this reason the paintball equivalent to hop-up is known as Flatline. It is also easier for eye eye to track an object moving in a strait line rather than an arch, therefor a projectile utilizing the Magnus effect will appear to be “floating” or moving slower than normal when it is really moving faster than normal. All of this occurs because the Magnus effect gives a round projectile lift.
I know of 3 different mechanisms that achieve hop-up. The first is primarily used in airsoft. It is a bolt that hits the BB near its bottom causing backspin. The next is an abrasive pad located somewhere in the barrel. In airsoft it is located near the throat of the barrel and may or may not be a part of the ball dent. In paintball it is located near the muzzle. These types usually act like an adjustable choke, the tighter you make the barrel, the faster the rate of spin.
The third type is a curved barrel with a textured bore. These are primarily used in paintball, and are non adjustable. They are the most reliable but once the abrasive bore coating has worn off the accuracy becomes rather horrible.
mech
Not to pick bones, but wouldn’t the effect actually be “frontspin” or forwardspin?
Backspin is when the top of the sphere is moving in the opposite direction of travel. Backspin would also cause a sphere to drop faster. This technic is used in baseball to throw a “sinker”.
Think of it in terms of an airplane wing. The lift is created by the air being forced to travel faster over the top of the wing due to the fact that the wing surface area is curved on the top and flat on the bottom of the wing, making the overall length of the wing’s top surface distance longer from the front of the wing to the back. This causes a decrease in pressure (the venturi effect) and the higher pressure that exists on the bottom of the wing pushes the wing upwards into the lower pressure above.
The fact that the resistance built into the barrel shows that it actually causes the top to spin forward which would cause the opposite effect of backspin and the sphere would rise.
Not that it matters all that much, but it is interesting to understand how it works.
And that concludes the science lesson for the day… LOL!
I know it seems weird but it is backspin. Backspin is used to throw a fastball. I have also built a few paintball markers with Flatline barrels. Those barrels place backspin on the ball, and the wear patterns are always on the top of the bore because that is the part of the barrel that the ball is touching. The friction pad on the Apex barrel is also located on the top of the bore. The Apex barrel allows you to change the amount of backspin given to the ball, it also allows you to rotate the pad in relation to the bore while shooting. If you place the pad o the right side of the bore, the ball will curve right, If you place it on the bottom, the ball will curve down.
As a ball moves through the air it creates boundary layer of air that must move around the ball. By adding spin to the ball it causes airflow within the boundary layer to deflect toward the side of the ball moving against the flow and a delay of airflow on the side of the ball moving with the flow. This momentum change in the air is balanced by a momentum change in the ball in the opposite direction.
If the ball has backspin, the air in the boundary layer will move towards the bottom of the ball, to balance this the ball’s momentum will shift up causing lift. As an added bonus, because the turbulence generated by the ball moving through the air shifts to one side of the ball, drag is reduced.
mech
Another activity where the amount and direction of spin on the ball is important to know is golf, especially on windy days … on some courses where the wind is from one direction at the tee but a different direction near the hole, especially on the shorter holes where the required shot has a higher trajectory, the whole physics situation can give even PGA Tour pro’s and caddies migraines and can change the leaderboard of the tournament in a hurry. Backspin is a given, a little sidespin is also often a given, which helps the golfer compensate for sideways wind effects. Sometimes they intentionally hit a higher than normal shot with a shorter club for a certain yardage if they want the ball to ride a tailwind, but a headwind will magnify the negative effects of too much sidespin and send the ball into trouble, or rob the shot of yardage by reducing the lift it normally would have. The golfer can choose to hit a longer, less-lofted club with a choked-down grip to produce a lower trajectory in an attempt to fly the ball below the worst layer of wind and hope when it lands it rolls just the right distance, which is a much more dicey proposition, especially on the back 9 on Sunday afternoon with a slim lead or when trying to catch the leader who is a hole or 2 ahead or behind you on national television. Lift generation and turbulence management are the reason golf balls have dimples, and so many different sizes, shapes and depths of them comparing different makes and models.
btw, who is this Magnus person ? bet (s)he was(is) a golfer LOL !
Thanks for the explanation. I had always wondered why baseball pitches curve.
Matt61
Heinrich Magnus was a German physicist whom first discovered this phenomenon in 1853. It is also believed that Newton first correctly theorized it back around 1673.
The Magnus effect is very promising to science. There are 4 types of lift. Buoyancy, like a helium balloon, airfoil, which is a wing, downward thrust, such as a rocket or hovercraft, and oscillation which uses the Magnus effect.
Balloons have to be very large in order to lift practical amounts of load. Wings are either fixed like on a plane and do not allow for a hover ability, or rotating like a helicopter, and take up a large amount of space and flue when in use. Rockets and lift fans need to be large, and use a huge amount of fuel. High frequency oscillators can be made small and relatively efficient, yet still powerful enough to carry large loads. The “flying cars” of the future will most likely contain 4 oscillators in place of 4 wheels. You could hover very close to the ground yet still adjust for terrain. These cars would be capable of very high speeds because there is no friction with the ground, and if you lose power you’ll only fall a few inches, and the oscillators could also act as wheels when needed.
There is another form of lift, maglev. The problem wit maglev is that both the vehicle and the road need to be magnetized for it to work. Maglev can work without a magnetized road, but the road will need to be coated in liquid nitrogen, which is not exactly practical or healthy.
mech
BB,
I had been planning on purchasing a Weihrauch HW50S, based in part on your recommendation and in part on the price being right. My dealer, however, is out of stock and apparently won’t be seeing another Weihrauch shipment for 6+ months.
So, I’m trying to decide between the other (more expensive) models they do have in stock. I want a .22, and since I’m in Canada I need it de-tuned to 500 fps. For these criteria, the HW77, HW80, HW97 AND HW95 are available. I have read all your posts about the Weihrauch rifles and the HW77 and HW80 in particular. Before I make the final decision, I wanted to know if you thought the de-tuning would work out better in one in particular. I’m attracted to the lower recoil in the side-lever HW77, but is that a moot point in a de-stroked rifle? Your “Which Weihrauch would BB pick” blog is great, but would the punchline (the R1/HW80) change if you had to take it de-stroked?
Any input would be great,
RO
Matt61,
Shooting airguns at range is alike to shooting a rifle at range as it stretches the capability of the shooter and the gun.
As far as creating some sort of range equivalent, its just not that linear. AIRGUNS AT 100- If you like a challenge, go for it! The BC of a pellet and a bullet are very different. My airwolf does fine at this range, but i have never shot past 130. I don’t think any spring gun can perform at this range. In truth, the power of the gun does not matter if your using a pellet – a kodiak will have about the same energy at that range no matter fired from a 60 fp condor or a 30 fp talon.
How are you scaling this? By drop? Accuracy? Power? Flight time? Velocity? ETC. The velocity and energy do not compare AT ALL! If a 750gr bullet is going 150 fps it has the same energy as my airwolf at the muzzle. If the velocity were the same the bullet would not stabilize. The accuracy is probably pretty close at 50 yards and maybe a slight edge to a cheap 50 BMG at 100. At 200 the 50bmg will group many times better – at a 1000 yards – well, the pellet doesn’t go that far.
As you go further out – the scale becomes greater and greater – they may be equal at 50 but then at 100 its like shooting a real gun at 500 – the pellet just slows so rapidly. This is why i don’t even attempt to create any type of scale!
am i making any sense.
What I’m saying is somewhat theoretical…
wow you guys really confused me, but i will add something to it. this will probably confuse you more, but it helped me understand the principle. In basket ball when you shoot, you put backspin on the ball with your wrist, so your arm doesnt do as much work. it also allows the ball to bounce back toward you off the backboard to go into the hoop. If you werent to use backspin basketball players arms would be huge. The principle is also used in bowling. it does the same thingbackspin allows you to keep a straight shoot further, while sidespin will curve when the force of the spin overcomes the foce of the throw. Hope i didnt confuse you too awful much.
Brody
Yes, mecredd is correct.. I didn’t brush all of the dust off of my brain cells when it came to my science knowledge!! LOL!
It is in fact the Backspin that keeps the ball afloat UNTIL it gets near the plate, when it loses enough energy that it then quickly drops!
I would expect the same thing to happen on a BB shot from a gun that puts backspin on it. It would “float” longer, then drop quicker. (???) at least I would think it would.
Here is a website that explains it all quite well… http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae423.cfm
BB,
I am looking to buy an Air Rifle. Can you recommend me one? My budget is 100-150 dollars, but it can be a little more than that. I would use the rifle mainly for shooting soda cans and paper targets from anywhere from 10 feet to 20 yards. I’d rather not use a scope, not that I would need one for shooting soda cans.
Hope you can help,
Steve.
BB,
Hows the BAM B 30-1 Sidelever? It is in my price range and has great reviews. What do you think of it?
Steve.
henry,
You ask all the hard questions. I guess my primary way of scaling was in terms of difficulty. Upon a little more reflection, maybe the important quantity is distance. The projectiles from both pellets and firearms have to start somewhere and land somewhere, so I thought that the two distances could be proportioned in terms of their halfway, three-quarter points and so on. But I know that the trajectories would be different. Maybe the term effective accuracy is relevant although that is amorphous and probably very dependent on the shooter.
That leads me back to the difficulty measure. What is it that makes shooting at a distance more difficult than at 10 meters with a pin-sized target? Isn’t it the degree of drop and the effect of the wind? Otherwise, you are just shooting into a two-dimensional picture using the same skills, right?
Matt61
I have a 1999 RWS 46E which stopped cocking. It feels, sounds like the trigger mechanism does not catch the piston. Any ideas on the problem? Anything a good mechanic, but with no gunsmithing skills could fix at home? Sorry if you have gotten this several times, having a tough time figuring out how to post.
Steve,
Since B.B. is on the road at the moment, I will presume to address your question, especially since you anticipate one of my recommendations.
I’ve learned quite a bit about the B30 in the course of ordering three different ones from PA. I would say that it maximizes your budget in terms of power and accuracy. With mixed feelings, I have to admit that it is a little more accurate than my IZH 61, probably because of the weight. It will be almost impossible to miss a can at the distances you mention, and the rifle should kick the can far up in the air and rip right through it depending on how you have set things up.
It really depends on what you want to do. The weight and the single shot action that make the B30 so accurate also impose limitations. Much as I enjoy the rifle, 30 offhand shots is about enough for me at one time. The IZH 61, on the other hand, can also easily hit a can at 20 yards, plus with its repeater action and light weight, you can put out a lot more lead which is the ultimate goal after all. And at about $110 it is well within your budget.
The Crosman 1077 falls below your budget but it is easily capable of hitting cans every time. Plus, if your range is limited, the 1077 offers the means to expand your shooting in other directions. With its semiauto action, you can hold off attacking hordes, double-tap, snap shoot and live out just about any shooting fantasy you can construct. And there are plenty of cool airgun products that will gobble up the money saved by the $70 price tag….
Matt61
Matt61,
in terms of a half way point, again, i don’t think its that linear. I think you know the answer to this question as well as anyone. We both know the factors that can make or break a comparison of the two.
MOA! The size of your target in MOA — in relation to range. Assuming the accuracy is perfect in the gun it will be of the same difficulty for a shooter to hit a 1 inch target at 100 yards as it is for the same shooter to hit a ten inch target at 1000. This means you can change your hit probability by changing the range and size of the target. Every time you pull the trigger your that much better, no matter the gun…
hello bb
in my research I have stumbled across another rifle. You said you preferred the panther to the cfx but how
about the whisper verse the cfx? How does accuracy hold sensitivity reliability compare?
thanks
john
sorry whisper verse panther
henry,
I guess the MOA measure is as good as any to normalize distance. However, a .10 group at 10 yards is doable, but B.B. has an article about accuracy saying that a 1 inch group at a 100 yards with an air rifle is like a hole-in-one in golf. What would be an equivalent level of difficulty for high-power shooting? It would surely be more than a 10 inch group at 1000 yards because I bet those are more common than holes-in-one.
On the subject of practice, how did you get to your 100+ yard shots? Did you just shoot regularly over the years or were you like this guy in the Bob Lee Swagger novels (the villain :)) who “for five years gave himself over completely to the discipline of the rifle”?
Matt61
Matt61,
when i shoot a squirrel at 100+ yards its basically a planed assassination. I don’t shoot if the wind breaks 5 mph, it just gets to complicated, I loose the clean kill probability that I prefer. I don’t think bb was thinking about an airwolf when he said sub inch groups at 100 yards are as common as hole in ones in golf. I do have my gun mapped out for different ranges. I am sighted at 50 yds for all my .22 PCPs. Thats 5 to 8 inches low at 90 yds, depending on the gun. It really doesn’t take that long to test drop at different ranges.
by the way bb I found a pretty good ” illegal item” on ebay for a good price. Comes with scope low mileage let me know if you’re interested.
If this is the RWS, please send it.
B.B.
John,
ALL breakbarrels are more sensitive than fixed barrels. The Whisper is sensitive, too.
B.B.
Nikram,
You either have a broken mainspring or a broken spring guide. At any rate, your rifle needs to be fixed. If you live in the U.S., contact Pyramyd AIR for repairs.
888-262-4867.
B.B.
RO,
The HW 77 is an underlever, and that’s the one I’d get.
B.B.
sorry bb for getting your hopes up… looked like a good deal. but as you know there can’t be a good deal without a catch, the rifle was removed by ebay, it was a rws 350 with scope listed under the scope, just in case relisted differently.
sorry,
john
B.B. I just recieved my Walther Falcon in .22 cal. and I am very impressed with it, I would like to own 2 rifles of this power, the other one that I am interested in is the Webley Patriot in .22 with a gas spring, though I have read that there are problems with the new Patriots in .25 cal. do these same problems plague the .22 version? or would the ones that pyramyd have in stock be a good choice?
P.S. I put a 6-24 x 50 scope on my falcon and after about 50 shots I sheared off my scope stop, I have a new stop on the way but you may want to add a better one to yours before this happens to you.
Patriot gas spring,
Your question really should be discussed at length with Pyramyd AIR technical staff. I have no idea what they have in stock at this moment for Webley Patriot .22 caliber rifles.
Thanks for the heads-up on the scope stop. I will try to break mine.
B.B.
As always thank you for the advise, it is always appreciated. I hope you have as much fun with your falcon as I have with mine.
I will call pyramyd tomorrow and speak with them about the patriot.