Wednesday, January 28, 2009

Diana 27 - Part 4

by B.B. Pelletier

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

Today, we'll look at velocity after fixing the Diana 27 breech with a new leather seal. Vince is our resident spring rifle expert, and he voiced some concern about the new seal being cut flush with the breech face. I admit to the same misgivings, but when I looked at other vintage breakbarrels, I've noticed they all look the same--a flush seal. And they all work well. I think maybe the leather acts in a dynamic way when hit with the high-pressure airflow from the transfer port. It moves to seal the breech.

At any rate, I tested the same pellets that were used in the failed velocity test before, so we have a direct before and after comparison.

Eley Wasps
Before the seal replacement, Wasps averaged 444 f.p.s. before oiling the piston seal and 225 f.p.s. after.

The Eley Wasp is not readily available anymore in the U.S., but I still have a few tins set aside for tests like this. It's very oversized for the .177 Diana breech. As a result, a considerable portion of the bottom of the skirt remains outside the breech. The Diana breech is cut on an angle; so when the pellet is seated, the bottom goes in last. The Wasp doesn't go in all the way. When the breech is closed, the pellet is actually damaged at this point.


Eley Wasp is a domed pellet that's large in both .177 and .22 calibers. It's not a premium pellet in price but does shoot surprisingly well in many guns.



Wasps are large and don't go into the barrel as deep as they should. Because the breech face is angled, this lip sticks out and gets damaged when the breech closes.



When the breech closed, it bent the lip of the skirt up. That's hard to see in this photo, but you can see where it smashed the side of the lip against the breech face. It actually did this on both sides of the skirt, but the field of view is so narrow that the opposite side is out of focus.


Because of that (I think) the velocity with Wasps was very erratic. They recorded several in the 588-620 f.p.s. range, but others went 242-269 f.p.s. I wondered about that and decided to seat them deeply in the bore with a ballpoint pen. That put them about 1/8" into the bore, where no skirt damage was possible. But it also delivered only the lower velocity range, and there was usually a spray of oil from the top of the breech. When I seated them just by finger pressure, there was no spray. Wasps don't seem to be a good pellet for this rifle.

RWS Basics
The RWS Basic is a wadcutter that weighs 7 grains. Before the breech seal was replaced, they recorded an average of 475 f.p.s. when the piston seal was dry and 212 f.p.s. after it was oiled.

After the seal was replaced, they averaged 658 f.p.s., with a tight spread of 650-666 f.p.s. They fit the breech very well and may turn out to be a great pellet for this rifle.

Crosman Premier 7.9-grain pellets
Before breech seal replacement, light Crosman Premiers recorded 580 f.p.s. before oiling the piston seal and 321 f.p.s. after. After seal replacement, they recorded an average of 588 f.p.s. with a spread from 577 to 595. They're a very good fit in the breech and will possibly be another accurate pellet in this rifle. Notice that they came the closest to the after velocity before seal replacement. I'm not sure what that means, but it's worth noting.

RWS Superdomes
RWS Superdomes seemed to be the least affected by oiling the former bad breech seal. They recorded 412 f.p.s. before oiling the piston seal and 393 f.p.s. after oiling.

After breech seal replacement, Superdomes averaged 591 f.p.s., with a range from 582 to 601. They fit the bore well and look like yet another candidate for an accurate pellet for this gun.

This breech seal replacement seems to have worked well. The rifle has all the power we expect from a Diana 27, and I note that much of the spring twang is now gone. That must mean the internals are in good shape.

The rifle has gone from average to excellent with just a breech seal replacement and a trigger adjustment. The next step is to pull it all apart and dive into the internals.

I'm currently under the gun on several deadlines, so the next report isn't going to happen soon. But I want you to hold me to it, because this is one rifle you will all want to see revealed.

76 Comments:

At January 28, 2009 6:02 AM, Anonymous Vince said...

BB, glad the gun seems to be up to snuff... but from what I've seen I'm still wondering if an O-ring might help pick it up more. I'm getting in a couple of model 27's from Wayne to work on, perhaps I'll try the breech seal both ways.

Of course, a lot depends on the clearance between the breech face and the mating compression tube face - the greater it is, the more critical is that seal.

 
At January 28, 2009 6:22 AM, Blogger Eric said...

Quick question off topic: I did some research thru your articles trying to find this answer but didn't find.

My new Tx200, one piece scope base mounting with a stop screw: the hole for the stop screw is bigger than the screw. Where does one position the stop screw - against the front of the hole or against the back of hole?

thanks for your feed back. Love my new Tx200

 
At January 28, 2009 7:21 AM, Anonymous John from jersey said...

Eric, You can put the stop screw towards the butt-end of the rifle.

 
At January 28, 2009 7:23 AM, Blogger UW Hunter said...

Eric,
I'm pretty sure you will want to position the scope stop screw at the back of the hole. I am guessing this because scope bases have been known to shear the stop screw of the back of RWS rifles with the rearward movement of the scope on the rail. I have never heard of a scope shifting forward. I'm sure that if I'm wrong, someone else more knowledgeable than I will speak up.

 
At January 28, 2009 7:49 AM, Anonymous Vince said...

UW Hunter, you're right. The scope stop pin should be against the back of the hole because the scope will try to move toward the rear.

 
At January 28, 2009 8:01 AM, Blogger derrick38 said...

BB,

Hate to be the dissenting voice but I think the breech seal is still too low and your experience with the Eley Wasp confirms it. When you seated the Wasps into the bore with a pen the oversized skirt made it airtight. The gun fired, and you lost substantial pressure --visible as the oil spray you referenced--because the breech seal leaked. In short, I'm saying it sounds like the breech seal is right on the ragged edge of sealing. If you can find the time, please try a a washer or a thicker piece of leather for that seal. There's no other explanation for why you saw a velocity reduction on the Wasp.

As to why you saw an increase in velocity for the the other pellets, I'm gonna point again at my guess that the seal is right on the edge of function. A slightly smaller pellet diameter, a coat of oil in the barrel...

Just my thoughts.

Derrick

 
At January 28, 2009 8:32 AM, Blogger kevin said...

B.B.,

This series is fascinating to me. Not only because one of my favorite springers is a 1980 diana model 27 but because your testing shows what significant differences exist in the same model gun.

Eley Wasps perform great in my 27 and seat flush without great effort. My 27 has the factory original leather seal and even with regular oiling sits flush in the breech.

Sorry that the eley's didn't perform well in your 27 but hopefully will be useful in one of your other guns.

I'm not suggesting including meisterkugeln's at this late point in your testing, but wanted to remind you to try them when you shoot the gun for fun. They work well in my 27 and worked well in your other 27.

kevin

 
At January 28, 2009 8:44 AM, Blogger kevin said...

Volvo,

Typed a long response to your query about the AA S410 comparison I did to make my decision. Don't know what happened to it.

Short version: Don't have the AA S410 yet, paired down a list of 8-9 pcp's and the cyclone was on my short list.

I'll try to find some time to retype my comparison's. Since you've alreay "pulled the trigger" on your purchase it's probably unimportant.

If i ever get the gun i certainly intend to share my opinion with you.

kevin

 
At January 28, 2009 8:57 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

OT, a question for b.b. or anyone.
I was shooting my Slavia 630 last night when there was a little tinkle and there on the floor was a small (1/3 the size of a dime) sheet steel piece on the floor.
Looking at the gun there was a little piece missing behind the trigger...which in the past I assumed was to keep dirt out of the trigger mechanism.
The gun works fine. Trigger seems as before, the safety functions as it should...nothing changed.
My concern is that the closest I can figure, according to the not great exploded view in the instructions it is called a 'trigger spring'...though as I say tension on the trigger, trigger pull, etc all seems as before.
Is it okay to just go ahead an use it?
Thanks
CowBoyStar Dad

 
At January 28, 2009 8:59 AM, Blogger CJr said...

BG_Farmer,
Here's an option my brother recommends for you to sell your astronomy scope: www.astromart.com

-Chuck

 
At January 28, 2009 9:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kevin,I'm pretty certain I read that post last night.you said you heavily favored the cyclone...right?I took special notice because others gave me the impression the semi-auto function from FX wasn't reliable.I'm much more inclined to believe your endorsement and will probably buy a cyclone,so thank you very much!I too think at this price level gambling is not acceptable....FrankB

 
At January 28, 2009 9:00 AM, Anonymous Vince said...

Derrick38, when you seal a pellet well into the bore and get past all that initial resistance, you also inadvertently get rid of the 'pop valve' effect that allows pressure to build up to a greater level before the pellet starts moving. That's probably why the velocity was so low when he did that.

Now, if BB is right and the leather seal is actually dynamic and is forced to seal by the blast of air, that lower peak pressure might mean that the seal doesn't do that properly. In that case it would leak and you'd see the oil.

Frankly, though, I think you're right... and that the gun would run faster with a good O-ring in there (or at least a seal that stuck out more). But BB has a lot more experience with airguns than I do, so it's entirely possible that we're both mistaken and BB is right.

As I said, Wayne's sending a couple of 27's to my house and I should be able to try it both ways.

BTW - the pellet seating problem can occur on any gun with an angled breech face, as I found out with my RWS94 and 34 models. It's more of an issue with .22 cal guns, but obviously it can happen in either caliber.

 
At January 28, 2009 9:03 AM, Blogger CJr said...

Eric,
I'll add my experience to the scope stop pin question. I noticed that on my springers the scope creeps off the back of the gun. On my Ruger 10/22 firearm that shoots .22LR the scope creeps off the front.
-Chuck

 
At January 28, 2009 9:16 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Kevin,

I should try the Meisters as you suggest. My first 27, many years ago, was a .22, and although I have owned a .177 before now, the .22 is better known to me. I suppose I think of it that way.

B.B.

 
At January 28, 2009 9:19 AM, Anonymous volvo said...

Derrick,

I can’t speak to the breech seal, but in my experience seating a pellet too deep has always given a lower velocity.

FrankB,

The Cyclone is not a semi auto. Those were all quotes from the others, not Kevin or myself.


Kevin,

I was afraid to wait any longer, as the $1195 Beech was a holiday special. Walnut is $1449 and plastic is $1295, so it seemed like too good a deal to pass up.

 
At January 28, 2009 9:29 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Vince and Derrick,

I will try Derrick's suggestion. I will send for a 27 seal today. Vince, can you please tell me what seal you plan to use?

With both Vince and I doing the same thing, we should get some good data on what works and what doesn't.

The leather seal can always be replaced, so I don't mind doing this.

B.B.

 
At January 28, 2009 9:30 AM, Anonymous wayne said...

B.B.

Thanks for this report on the Diana 27, the perfect size springer.. as far as I'm concerned!

I get that a tapered breech makes closing the barrel easier, but I wonder why so much angle is necessary.. seems like the slightest angle is all that is necessary...

I like the idea of the "oversized, squashing it down" type breech seal..... just to be sure.. "more" is mo better", maybe in this case..

But the velocity your getting seems just right.. so go figure.. maybe Derrick is right, "on the edge" is where it's at now..

Wayne,
Ashland Air Rifle Range

 
At January 28, 2009 9:36 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Regarding the use of a ballpoint pen to seat pellets: It's something to try, but currently I am using the spare bolt from a Crosman 1377 as a pellet-seating tool (I got a new bolt when I upgraded the gun to a steel breech). It works well; no more damaged pellet skirts. In fact, it works so well that I'm going to get the $15 Beeman Pellet seating/shaping tool that PA sells.

I have seen comments here about the pellet pouches that sometimes come with an airgun purchase. I bought a pouch from Crosman. It has Velcro fasteners to attach it to a belt and to keep it closed. I stopped using it because I constantly had pellets spilling out of it, and they were hard to reach in the billfold-like crannies. Instead, I use the squeeze-style coin purses that are available in Dollar Stores at a reasonable price. They come in different colors, and I mark the pellet info on the outside with a magic marker.

I am curious about the fact that some pellets have ribbing around their skirts and others don't. Because lead is so soft I doubt that the ribs provide any kind of structural support and it makes a pellet mold more complicated to create if ribs have to be cut into it. Any ideas?

--Witt

I have seen comments here about the pellet pouches that sometimes come with an airgun purchase. I bought one from Crosman. It has Velcro fasteners to attach it to a belt and to keep it closed. I stopped using it because I constantly had pellets spilling out of it, and they were hard to reach in the billfold-like crannies. Instead, I use the squeeze-style coin purses that are available in Dollar Stores at a reasonable price.

I am curious about the fact that some pellets have ribbing around their skirts and others don't. Because lead is so soft I doubt that the ribs provide any kind of structural support and it makes a pellet mold more complicated to create if ribs have to be cut into it. Any ideas?

--Witt

 
At January 28, 2009 9:47 AM, Anonymous Vince said...

BB, I plan to use a #109 Buna-N 'O' ring ('Shore A' hardness of 70)that I found to be interchangeable with the breech seal Diana uses on the 34's and the 350. I found that this 'O' ring was also a perfect fit in the Diana 25 (Winchester 425) and the Diana 26, which makes me think it'll work in the 27.

Mcmaster sells them... $1.89 for a bag of 100. So needless to say I've got a few spares! If you want I can send you a couple along with some shims.

 
At January 28, 2009 9:47 AM, Anonymous Herb said...

Re: Seal, and seating pellet

Nice that BB is going to try the o-ring too. But even earlier he stated that he didn't think that leather was "best," but that it was more historically accurate. In fact, he went to an awful lot of trouble to not just use an o-ring.

As far as seating the pellet into the barrel, there are multiple factors. It is hard to tell exactly which one is controlling the lower velocity.
(1) Seating pellet does "size" the pellet.
(2) Seating pellet also increases volume of "dead space" between the back of the pellet and the transfer port. More volume, less pressure.
(3) Having the pellet further away from the transfer port also alters the dynamics of the air passing into the barrel.

All in all the dynamic problem of how the pellet is pushed by the air is a complex problem if you try to do a rigorous mathematical analysis.

Herb

 
At January 28, 2009 9:53 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Re: Pellet ribbing

Hard to say...

(1) Cosmetic to make the pellet look "cool"
(2) Ribs create turbulence as air goes over skirt which reduces the aerodynamic drag of the pellet.
(3) Ribs reduce weight of skirt just a bit to push more of the weight "up front" thus stabilizing flight of pellet.

I'd guess some combination of 2 and 3.

Herb

 
At January 28, 2009 9:54 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think ribs are designed to "grab" the rifling, I might be wrong

 
At January 28, 2009 9:59 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

(4) For some reason the ribs are used in the pellet marking process to keep the pellet from spinning as the pellet is formed. For instance you stick a cutter in end to trim flashing from skirt. The head of the cutter has a cone to press the skirt into the holder, then the cutter spins to trim the back of the skirt.


Herb

 
At January 28, 2009 10:00 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

CowboyStar Dad,

I tend to be a tractor mentality mechanic, as in, if it falls off and the tractor still runs, no problem. And the tractor is now lighter.

That's not a craftsman viewpoint, of course. But that's how I see it.

B.B.

 
At January 28, 2009 10:03 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Vince,

I accept your offer of a 27 seal.

I'll be in touch.

B.B.

 
At January 28, 2009 10:05 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The purpose of the ribs does not seem to be to grab the rifling. On the RWS Superdome pellets that I have the rifling doesn't go all the way to the end of the skirt. There is a plain band left.

I've shot some into water and looked at the rifling marks. It is on the plain band that the rifling marks are made.

Herb

 
At January 28, 2009 10:06 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Herb,

I agree with your assessment and like Kevin, I have always found seating pellets diminishes velocity, though not as much as it did in this case.

B.B.

 
At January 28, 2009 10:16 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Re: My #2 on ribs

Checked with Chairgun2 ballistic coefficients (know that program isn't bible). The RWS Superdome has about the lowest BC for any pellet! So:

(2) Ribs change drag of pellet. (Less higher BC, higher more stability.)

You'd have to do some real experimentation to figure it out.

Herb

 
At January 28, 2009 10:17 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

b.b., we obviously think alike. I was only hoping you weren't going to tell me that now the thing (Slavia) would likely slip into full auto and maim hundreds of people ;-)
I think I will just keep shooting.
I remember years ago Car&Driver did a long term 5 year road test on two identical vehicles.
One they did all the recommended service...the other, apart from regular oil changes the fixed only when it broke.
After 5 years the car with all the regular maintenance needed to be towed twice, the one with only oil changes only needed one tow.
The one with the regular maintenance cost something in the neighbourhood of $2500, and broke down twice instead of once.
But it keeps service techs employed.

 
At January 28, 2009 10:21 AM, Anonymous Mr B. said...

B.B.,

I'm with Vince and Derrick and am interested in seeing the results using an o ring.

Witt, I also use the dollar store squeeze top change purses for pellets. Nothing better even at 5x the price point.

I have noticed when I'm pushing a pellet into a Diana that I can nick the pellet's edge with a finger nail resulting in a flyer. The ball end of the Beeman pellet tool that Witt is refuring to really works--back in the day they were 6 or 7 bucks.

Mr B.

 
At January 28, 2009 10:39 AM, Blogger kevin said...

Frank B, Volvo and anyone else who cares,

My lengthy post that I left last night was a narration on my comparison of multi shot pcp's in order to decide which one I should buy. The post disappeared. Couldn't find my notes that I scribbled several months ago on comparison of the 8-9 pcp guns either so I was going by memory of my evaluation. If my butt wasn't attached I'd probably lose that too.

Based on my memory, in my personal comparison of multi shot pcp's I rated in somewhat of an order of priority:
1-accuracy-my opinions tempered by knowing it's the subjective opinion and shooting ability of the blogger/reviewer/author
2-number of shots on the flat spot of the power curve-same caveat as above
3-minimal design flaws/maintenance issues/necessary tweaking to make the gun a shooter
4-weight- wanted a gun under 6 lbs. unscoped
5-quiet-factory quiet a plus
6-adjustable power-unlimited adjustment a plus
7-fit and finish. I wanted a wood not synthetic stock
8-velocity-at least 900 fps in .22 caliber, this rated higher on my list I just forgot it
9-cost-under $1,500.00 new.

Very quickly my list was paired down from 8-9 guns to 3, the new bsa, the cyclone and the aa s410erb.

The bsa was eliminated eventually because of weight and untried design since it's a new model (design flaws unknown, aftermarket tweaking unknown, etc.)

The weight of a cyclone in wood is 5.8 lbs and the 410 is 6 lbs in beech (probably lighter in walnut).
Velocity was similar in both guns.

Volvo, you're right the 410 had a terrible reputation because of the safety and older bolt action. But mostly because of the older bolt action. Both these "design flaws" have been addressed in the newer guns along with an improved shroud and exterior power adjuster wheel. The magazine's on the 410's apparently still stink. The aftermarket magazines apparently work flawlessly but are more expensive than the cyclones. Length of the cyclone is 37" vs. the 410 at 44.5" which wasn't a factor for me.

In the end I ordered a 410 in .22 caliber with the walnut thumbhole stock which includes an adjustable butt pad. Several minor things tipped me to the 410 (now remember, some of these are subjective since I haven't shot the cyclone or 410 for comparision, but heard this over and over from reviewers): 10 shot magazine vs. 8 shot, 410 is quieter, unlimited power adjustment vs. 3 power settings on the cyclone, frequency that cyclone owners bought air tube extensions was a concern, and the constant endorsement by Wayne was a factor that couldn't be ignored even though I didn't try hard.

In the end it amazed me how many times a (insert the name of your favorite pcp gun) was compared to an AA S410. Never saw another gun that was used more often as the standard of comparison.

If the gun ever arrives I'll let you know my opinions.

kevin

 
At January 28, 2009 10:44 AM, Anonymous wayne said...

B.B. & all,

I've got that pellet tool too!.. It is very helpful, especially with the CPHs.. in some rifles, they need help to get them in all the way.. and I don't want to damage the edges..

Wayne,
Ashland Air Rifle range

 
At January 28, 2009 11:20 AM, Anonymous Vince said...

The .22 Panther I had a while ago had a breech that was a bit on the tight side - it was tougher to get the pellet in to just the right depth. But if I seated the pellet so that the bottom of the skirt was just even with the breech face, the velocity was a LOT more consistent.

BB, your tractor comment reminds me of my old race car (1974 Mercury Capri 2.0)... every time I closed the door it got about 5 lbs lighter from all the rust shaking loose. Unfortunately, though, the car was stripped down pretty thoroughly - if something DID fall off (as the back of my alternator did once) it usually WAS important...

 
At January 28, 2009 12:37 PM, Blogger kevin said...

Mo.,

Re: Pellets that your friend could pick up while visiting Seeheim, Germany

Traded emails with my mother in law in Hamburg. Apparently Seeheim in not a thriving metropolis. Nearest burg (town, not city) is Darmstadt. No airgun outlet there.

My mother in law is not an airgunner. Surprise. She has a friend whose husband shoots airguns. She called him and asked where you could buy pellets close to Seeheim. He didn't know of any but had two suggestions. He buys his pellets on egun (similar to ebay) but like every auction site it may not have what you want when you need it (to coincide with your friends visit). In addition, of course, they would have to be shipped to an address in Seeheim. His other suggestion is to contact Umarex (located in Arnsberg, Germany) and order the pellets you want (they have a large selection) and have them shipped to an address in Seeheim. Maybe your friend can provide an address is Seeheim?

Here's the link to umarex in germany, good luck. Sorry I wasn't more help:
http://www.umarex.de/index.php?id=products&L=en&displaymode=0&no_cache=1&haupt_id=1&unter_id=4

kevin

 
At January 28, 2009 12:46 PM, Blogger Mo said...

Hi Kevin,

Thanks a ton. Really appreciate the help!

I will try and find out if my friend has an address for where she will be staying and have em shipped there.

Mo.

 
At January 28, 2009 12:49 PM, Blogger Mo said...

Kevin,

Umarex seems to have only Walther and Umarex pellets.. :(

Lemme give egun a try..

Mo.

 
At January 28, 2009 1:02 PM, Blogger kevin said...

Mo.,

You're right, the umarex site is limited in choices.

If you go to egun, click on "munnition" on the left side of the site. "sofortkauf" means "buy it now".

Good luck.

kevin

 
At January 28, 2009 1:16 PM, Blogger Mo said...

Kevin,

Thanks again. I'm pulling my hair out, trying to search on egun.. Whatever I search for it brings up the same results! lol..

Thanks for the tips. Now I'm looking for something to click "sofortkauf" on! :)

Mo.

 
At January 28, 2009 1:35 PM, Blogger kevin said...

Mo.,

Once you have clicked "Startszeite" sp.? and you enter the main page, scroll down and look at the far left. Click on "munnition". Once the page opens with all ammunition, look on the top left hand side of the page. The blank, white box, allows you to type in what you're looking for. Assume 4,5 mm (.177? type 4,5 not 4.5) or 5,5 mm (.22? tupe 5,5 not 5.5). Once that page opens, look at the blue bar above all the listings and click on "Sofortkauf-Artikel" (buy it now item).

kevin

 
At January 28, 2009 1:49 PM, Blogger Eric said...

Thanks to everyone who left comments regarding the correct stop pin positioning.

I've got it correct now.

Thanks

 
At January 28, 2009 1:53 PM, Anonymous Herb said...

Mo,

Off the wall thought. Is your friend going to be in Germany on business over a weekend?

If they are staying over a weekend, that is usually lonely. There might be a German reader of this blog who could meet your friend and take them pellet shopping. I liked meeting the "locals" when traveling.

Herb

 
At January 28, 2009 2:24 PM, Blogger Mo said...

Kevin,

I think I'm getting there :) lets see.. Thanks a ton for the lead.

Herb,

She works with Lufthansa Airlines and they have some training camp there. She will be meeting a lot of locals at the camp, and I'm hoping she finds somebody who's into shooting!

Thanks guys!

Mo.

 
At January 28, 2009 3:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BB,
I was shooting my shadow express today and when I switched from daisy wadcutters to gamo master point (absolutely the best in the shotgun), it started to make a metallic sound. It does this quite often with them, I just want to know whats happening.

Also,
I tried out the laser on the sigma .40VE yesterday. Big improvement over those white dot sights. groups shrunk down to 2-2.5inches at 20yards. 500 rounds and going with no jams:). On the other hand, the RIA1911 .38super has done good enough for 350$. I've have had jams, but only when using Winchester match wadcutters, Remington FMJ ball is flawless. Groups with the match are impressive at under 1.5inches at 20yards.
Shadow express dude

 
At January 28, 2009 4:01 PM, Blogger ajvenom said...

Are we going to be seeing a .14 caliber zimmerstutzens air rifle at PA?

Are a lot of the Gamo springers the same? Barrels, powerplants, triggers etc...?

Rumor has it that crosman is doing away with the .22 Premiers in the 625 count box.

BB your Escher like photo still gets me every time I look at it.

 
At January 28, 2009 4:25 PM, Blogger Mo said...

"Crosman is doing away with the .22 Premiers in the 625 count box"

I hope that one just remains a rumor! unless they have a better packing option. However, with the way the economy is headed, sooner or later sorted pellets will become a myth.. or un-affordable!

Mo.

 
At January 28, 2009 4:27 PM, Blogger Mo said...

B.B,

I feel if you flip the image vertically, the Escher effect will be minimal.

Most people expect the breech to be pointing down when the think of a break barrel, that contributes to the confusion..

Mo.

 
At January 28, 2009 4:44 PM, Anonymous volvo said...

Kevin,

We all have our own needs, as any sales person worth his salt understands. So your ideals while not totally unique do vary in priority slightly from mine.

As you suggest, the S410 is the measuring stick from which many others are judged. It seems to be readily available, affordable, and carried by numerous vendors - other than your Walnut thumbhole version. Hopefully it will be in your hands soon. I’m sure you will not be disappointed.

Here were my observations after one week with the Webley PCP from my guest blog:

“ If I could design my own PCP, my priorities in the order of importance would be quiet operation, adjustable power, onboard gauge, multiple shots, less than 7 lbs. weight, under 40" long & easy to refill.”

Since I won’t be bringing a rifle to market anytime soon, I decided instead of one perfect PCP I would satisfy all those needs with two. That is often my conclusion when it comes to arms. I have more than one pistol, shotgun, rifle, springer and so on. Why should PCP’s be any different?

First on the list was quiet for indoor and backyard shooting. The FX Whisper was the answer. Besides quiet the modest energy of .177 seems more appropriate in suburbia. If I lived in your neck of the woods I would guess that would be on the bottom of my list. (not far from my home a river caught on fire in the ‘70’s – ah utopia) I do wish you would write more about your surroundings.

Now we are almost caught up to date. My second PCP in .22 was to be a rifle with all the other features and less concern about noise. In comes the S410 again. The full size Beech model lists a weight of 7.25 lbs at 44.5 inches. No thanks. The carbine is 35.5 long and 5.5 lbs. That is a little small, but okay. However, I think Wayne returned his .22 carbine? So now comes my pleading for you to tell me about yours. My other choice is on sale. I waited, asked a couple times but still no S410 for you. So I pulled the trigger based on other feedback, most of which was a little dated.
If the AA grew better - great, if not the FX was already a revision ahead.

Rather than the 45cc extension for the air tank that is the exact same size as my Whisper (180CC) I think I will just buy a spare since I still use a hand pump. They come in the std 180CC and also a more convenient to carry 148CC size. The rifle includes 4 of the 8 shot clips and I’m guessing that will equal a fill. My Whisper has a 16 shot mag and gives 48 shots that are good, but quitting at 32 is probably best if you’re shooting at 40-50 yards. ( you can keep shooting 2 times that amount, but POI is going to seriously change) FYI - the smaller magazines will allow lower scope mounting also, make sure you have “highs” on hand.

Maybe when mine arrives next week we can compare notes soon. PA has your in stock date as Feb 9th.

 
At January 28, 2009 5:13 PM, Blogger UW Hunter said...

See the following post and additional link within this post for info regarding Crosman Premiers. It looks like they will no longer be sold in the cardboard box.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1233160113/Crosman+is+STILL+selling+Premiers...+straight+from+the+horse%27s+mouth

 
At January 28, 2009 5:38 PM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

SED,

I've had the same sound change with certain pellets, so I know what you mean. I think it has to do with their suitability for a particular powerplant. I avoid using them if the sound is ominous. Here's an example. I got a sound like that from a .177 RWS 52 shooting Hobbys. It sounded like the piston was slapping at the end of the stroke. So I stopped using Hobbys in that rifle.

I have never been able to prove that the sound is bad, but I really don't want to. Do you? I know the Gamo Master Points are the most accurate, but do you want to take the chance they are harming your powerplant?

Here is a suggestion. If you tune the gun, the performance characteristics will change, but the barrel won't. That move would likely give you your Master Points back again.

If you don't want to do that, be prepared that at some point the gun will need work if you continue to use the Master Points.

B.B.

 
At January 28, 2009 5:54 PM, Blogger kevin said...

Everyone,

Re: Crossman doing away with premier pellets

Please read this, straight from crosman rep:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/message/1233152822/Whoa+there+fellas...

Hopefully this will put this wildfire of a rumor out that has been all over the internet the last week.

kevin

 
At January 28, 2009 6:14 PM, Blogger Mo said...

Hi Kevin,

I did see that. But hasn't the box always been the highlight?

I mean, the premiers in the tin coexisted with the cardboard boxed ones. And the latter had an edge with better consistency.

So doing away with the cardboard box will become a big deal.

Will JSB Exacts reign as the supreme pellet of all?!

 
At January 28, 2009 6:19 PM, Blogger kevin said...

Volvo,

I also wish I had the AA S410 in order to give you my first hand impressions. Have 4 extra magazines, scope mounts, great new scope, new pump, a pelican hard case for this gun since it will be traveling on atv's, a barn full of pellets but no gun. Unbelievable since as you said many people carry aa s410's but no one can keep the thumbhole in stock. Figures. Which by the way I didn't mention that another reason for the thumbhole is that the gun weighs 6 lbs unscoped in the walnut thumbhole stock but weighs (as you also noted) 7.25 lbs in the beech non thumbhole version.

I really got a kick out of your description of your utopia. ;-)
A river caught on fire? With water in it? Oil spill? Can't imagine. Don't want to imagine.

I live in the city during the week. Only have a little over a half acre. I can shoot air rifles only at a maximum of 100 feet safely. Most of my shooting is done at our home in the mountains. We are one of 150 members of a fishing club that owns 2,100 acres and our property borders another 34,000 acres of public lands (state and federal land). Our fishing club started in the late 1800's and formally incorporated in 1921. Only 150 members have and will ever be allowed. We have 32 private lakes on our property, our own fish hatchery, two full time fish biologists, full time manager and the best trout fishing in Colorado. At least the best I've experienced in over 50 years of fishing in this state. The migratory route for the 3rd largest elk herd in Colorado cuts through the north end of our property. Pretty common to see elk and deer on my lawn any time of day. We shoot the crows, coons, muskrats, coyotes (and several others I won't mention, no we don't shoot the eagles) since they're a tremendous threat to the fishery. Our home sits about a half a mile above the arkansas river and looks out at the two tallest peaks in colorado, mt elbert and mt massive. You asked to hear more. Hope I didn't drone on to long but we love it up there.

kevin

 
At January 28, 2009 6:28 PM, Blogger kevin said...

Mo,


This is the only article I could find quickly from crosman execs but there are others. I've read a lot about this crosman premier issue in the past week. It's the buzz.

From everything I've read including subsequent posting by crosman exec's, they're doing away with the box because of the complaints about pellets lost in shipping, crushed in shipping etc. The crossman premiers in the tin will remain in the tin and the boxed premiers will get a new tin. It's unknown if the die lots will be placed on the new tins (like it is on the box), whether the tins will contain 625 pellets or?, or whether the cost will go up with new packaging or remain the same with less pellets. I don't know these answers but the premiers that now come in the cardboard box will still be made.

We'll see.

kevin

 
At January 28, 2009 7:12 PM, Anonymous Josh said...

B.B.
Nearly Identical to my results. With my 7.9 premieres (domed) it ranged 586-596 avg 590 My soft leather breech seal sticks out 0.012in. So your flush seal hasn't any performance gain/loss according to my Diana 27.

 
At January 28, 2009 7:17 PM, Anonymous wayne said...

Kevin,

Now that's what I call a second home!!!

No wonder you don't guide anymore..

How about a trade of pellets of part of your land?:):) I'll even kick down a case of 18 gr. JSB!!

Wacky Wayne

 
At January 28, 2009 7:19 PM, Anonymous volvo said...

Kevin,

Thanks for the description. I can picture it better then if it was on Kodachrome.
Below is a link to the river.

We have some really tall smoke stacks, ah not sure what else…

As a kid I actually lived a lot farther south in a rural area, but nothing like you describe.

http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/entry.php?rec=1642

Did you decide not to go with a scuba tank?

 
At January 28, 2009 7:49 PM, Blogger kevin said...

Wayne,

You're very kind. It's a great spot. The land is wonderful but in arid Colorado water is worth more than land. Our water rights are number 1 seniority and every 4-5 years they get challenged by someone downstream. In a court battle we had about 15 years ago we were forced to buy another $4 million in water rights to offset the surface evaporation in our lakes.

If you wanted to trade, you need to go for the water in Colorado.

kevin

 
At January 28, 2009 7:55 PM, Blogger kevin said...

Volvo,

That is some story about the river catching fire. Never heard of that. In 1969 we didn't have a tv, went to the post office about once a month and went to town even less. Wish more kids had a similar upbringing today. Kids have way too much time on their hands these days.

Haven't ruled out a carbon fiber tank but I'll try the pump for awhile. Winter here and not a lot of outdoor shooting time. Probably get a tank when the weather warms up.

kevin

 
At January 28, 2009 9:55 PM, Anonymous Mr B. said...

Keven,

A question please on the pump you purchased for "your" 410--which one did you purchase and why? I'm on my 2nd Crosman pump and it is starting to act weird--some times the handle will rise all the way back up after a down stroke by itself.

Might be some sort of seal problem, I don't know. But if this one goes I'll be looking for a replacement. Thanks for your imput Mr B.

 
At January 28, 2009 10:07 PM, Blogger CJr said...

River on fire - Cleveland? I was thinking Pittsburgh.
-C

 
At January 28, 2009 10:29 PM, Anonymous wayne said...

Kevin,
No wonder it's so hard to get you to come visit me.. I wouldn't leave either!!

I've got it!.. We will plant trees here in Oregon, and make rain for you in Colorado..

Actually the Air Force seeds the clouds here, so it will snow more in the Rockies... Does that count as part payment?..
and I'll kick down all the pellets you can shoot for the rest of your life... just for a photo from your porch..

Wayne

 
At January 29, 2009 8:16 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Kevin,

I am impressed! What a wonderful retreat you have.

B.B.

 
At January 29, 2009 8:18 AM, Blogger B.B. Pelletier said...

Josh,

Thanks for your input. Vince and I will be resealing the breeches of several 27s with synthetic seals so we can see if there is any difference. This is turning out to be quite the quest for knowledge.

B.B.

 
At January 29, 2009 9:05 AM, Blogger kevin said...

B.B.,

Thanks for the kind words.

I never realized how easily impressed you are. ;-)

kevin

 
At January 29, 2009 9:09 AM, Blogger kevin said...

Mr B.,

Re: What pump did I buy and why

Re-read my comment and I should have made clearer what I've read about pump maintenance.

LEAVE IT ALONE. DON'T WIPE THE FACTORY GREASE OFF.

kevin

 
At January 29, 2009 10:11 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kevin,
I'll second Wayne's request for a photo out the front door.
Hope you enjoy your S410. I've had mine for almost a year. The only thing I don't like is the safety. It is a bit hard to get at and I don't like to touch the trigger until I'm on target. It shoots JSBs best but does OK with Kodiaks and CPs. Look foreward to your reports.
MCA

 
At January 29, 2009 10:36 AM, Blogger kevin said...

MCA & Wayne,

Let me see if I have a photo that can be transferred to photobucket.

MCA,

Hey, thanks for the info on your 410. I've never been crazy about a safety near the trigger. Contrary to true gun safety. Are you shooting the new 18 gr. jsb's in your 410 that everyone is raving about or is it another jsb that is most accurate in your 410?

kevin

 
At January 29, 2009 10:59 AM, Blogger CJr said...

Kevin, you're not going crazy (yet). There is a problem with the blogger software. Kevin sent two comments one at 9:04 and resent it at 9:24. Neither has shown up in the blog. I tried to comment on the earlier and got an error message. I'm not sure this message will get through.
-Chuck

 
At January 29, 2009 12:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kevin,
I'm using JSB Exact Jumbo. My local airgun shop hasn't been able to get the 18 gr ones.
MCA

 
At January 29, 2009 12:48 PM, Blogger kevin said...

MCA,

The 15.8's. The 18's are hard to come by but from what I've heard you've got to try some in your 410. Most accurate pellet, on high power, than any other.

You'll probably get to try the jsb 18 gr. before me since the shipping date for my gun keeps moving out. Let me know if you do.

kevin

 
At January 29, 2009 7:14 PM, Anonymous Mr B. said...

Kevin,

Thanks for the thoughts on your what and why for the pump. Mr B.

 
At January 30, 2009 8:09 AM, Blogger kevin said...

Mr B.,

You're welcome.

kevin

 
At January 30, 2009 9:31 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kevin,
Nice pictures. Thanks

Mr. B,
I use the Benjamin pump for my S410. Sometimes it acts weird too. It locks up so i can't push it down or pull it up. I have to remove it from the gun and lean on it - all the way down, and after a while it bleeds out and then it works OK. I have never cleaned the original lubricant off or added to it.
MCA

 
At January 30, 2009 6:08 PM, Anonymous Mr B. said...

MCA,
Thank you for responding. I haven't done anything to my Benjamin/Crosman pump, but use it for my Discovery and Talon SS.

Maybe B.B. when he gets his schedule back under control and catches up with current topics, would talk about HPA pumps.

Mr B.

 
At February 01, 2009 8:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cowboystar dad,that piece that fell out indeed sounds like your trigger spring,part 33 in my manual,sounds like yours fatigued,some guys take them out entirely for a lighter trigger pull,I would err on the side of caution and make sure that after it's cocked and as soon as you return the barrel shut to fire that you keep it pointed at it's intended target...may fire unexpectedly but that's a guess...better to be safe.
Robert

 
At February 17, 2009 11:14 PM, Anonymous air rifles said...

Similar results. With the domed 7.9 prem. It avg 585.

 

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