by B.B. Pelletier
There’s a new airgun social website to see! It just went live yesterday.
Today, I’ll test the rifle for velocity. Remember, this is a .22 caliber breakbarrel in the same class as a Diana 23, which is to say a top-of-the-line youth model. I have to add that at 23-24 lbs. cocking effort, this one is a little hard for really young shooters, so I think of it more as an economy adult model, but it clearly isn’t in the same power class as the Diana 27. I would expect velocities in the low to mid-400 f.p.s. range with light .22 pellets. With lighter .177 pellets, that would translate to the low- to mid-500 f.p.s. range.
The rifle shoots without vibration; just a solid thump. The trigger is single-stage and movement can be felt, but no creep. It releases suddenly, which feels crisp. As light as the rifle is, there’s a forward jump at firing.
RWS Hobby
The RWS Hobby averaged 385 f.p.s. The spread was from 381 to 391, only 10 f.p.s., which is very tight for a spring gun.
Beeman Silver Bears
Beeman Silver Bear pellets averaged 373 f.p.s. and ranged from a low of 369 f.p.s. to a high of 377 f.p.s. Once again, just eight f.p.s. separates the high from the low.
Daisy Precision Max
Daisy Precision Max pointed field pellets are made in Spain and are not as precise as the other two. They weigh 14 grains, nominally, but the weight spread is broader than other premium brands. They averaged 317 f.p.s. and the total spread ranged from 310 f.p.s. to 326 f.p.s. Even a 16 foot-per-second spread is pretty remarkable in a spring gun.
Clearly, this rifle is well-tuned, because it shoots so consistently with all pellets. The velocity is a little less than I expected, but I don’t have as much experience with guns at this level as I do with Diana 27-level guns. However, there was one thing left to do. The breech seal looks on the low side, so I thought I would put in a spacer and see what it does to the velocity. Before doing this, though, I felt around the breech when the gun fired, and there was no indication of air leaking.
The first test was with a plastic spacer and a new o-ring. That combination was too high, because the gun opened at the breech when fired about half the time. The average velocity with Hobbys climbed to about 396, so there was a slight speed-up.
Then, I removed the spacer and just left the new o-ring. The velocity remained the same. Next, I oiled the synthetic piston seal with a couple drops of silicone chamber oil. After a velocity drop for the first few shots, the average picked back up to 402 f.p.s.; so another small gain. On this string the low was 395 and the high was 406, so an 11 foot-per-second spread. That’s almost exactly what it was before, except now the gun was 17 f.p.s. faster.
With the mainspring and piston seal in the gun right now, I believe the optimum velocity has been reached. It’s a little slower than expected, but only a couple dozen feet-per-second. And like I said, I don’t have much experience with spring guns at this level.
Next time, I’ll shoot for accuracy and general enjoyment. I can already tell you this is a very quiet airgun, as you might imagine from those numbers. What’s not to like?
Everyone,
You now know that Airguninfo is gone. It was replaced by Airgun Arena, the new social website.
The links from Airguninfo have all been transferred (the ones that still work) to Airgun Arena, so nothing has been lost. What Pyramyd AIR hopes to do with the new site is provide a reader-directed social website for airgunners.
No doubt we will learn more about this new website as time passes.
B.B.
Hi,
I like the new Airgun Arena, I haven’t explored everything yet but it seems very nice. I’m glad to see a canadian dealers links, hope we’ll see canadian tuners too.
How is the tv show coming ?
J-F
Well, at last I know how fast it’s shooting. I would imagine it might pick up a little bit as the main seal gets run in, but I doubt it’ll ever make more than about 450. (There were probably less than 50 shots on that seal before you got the gun.)
Jim in PGH
B.B. ,
I got the Ruger Air Hawk around Christmas time and it came with a scope stop on it since it was the newer model. I am tempted to purchase the Air Hawk Elite now but I would like to know if the ones Pyramyd have in stock now also come with a scope stop ?
Tom,
Don’t add any more silicone chamber oil to the chamber.
It will thin out and displace the application of the moly grease used when she was converted from leather to the apex seal. Ask Jim and I’d wager he’d agree. Just let the seal break in.
David,
Pyramyd AIR processes so many hundreds of orders each day that only a salesperson can answer your question. Give them a call.
I’m located 1,200 miles from them.
B.B.
Jim and whoever,
Okay, no more silicone oil. I will be shooting the rifle more , so maybe I’ll come back for a visit in the future.
B.,B.
BB,
I don’t know why the velocity matters on this particular rifle, although it is nice to see it so consistent, but you can always space up the spring. I would leave it alone — it will never be more than a short range plinker, but that’s enough if it remains pleasant to shoot: extracting maximum power from the rifle may render it useless.
BB,
Thanks for the info on those air rifles. To my disappointment the Beeman R8 has a right hand stock. Is there a way to make a right hand stock work for a left handed person? Why don’t rifle makers always install ambidextrous stocks? It irritates me to no end to be slighted that way. I’m not going to buy a gun I won’t be able to sell sometime in the future. Therefore, I will always buy an ambi one. There, I feel better now that I’ve had a chance to grouse at someone. I just answered my own question: about 10% of the population is left handed. You’d have thought I’d a had that figured out by now.
-Chuck
B.B.
Wow, that must win the award for lowest rifle velocity.
Matt61
(word verification: “panties” ???)
RE: new airgun social website
One thing that is missing is a GOOD list of airgun shows by date.
Herb
Herb,
Good one. We’re on it!
B.B.
RE: PA Customer service
Just had a problem with an order. It isn’t any “fun” arguing with the folks who handle PA’s customer service. I explained the problem, and the gentleman simply said, “Let me fix that for you” and placed a new order for the defective item.
I just don’t know how deal with real customer service anymore. How come the customer service folks at PA aren’t trained to make flimsy excuses and worthless statements like “I’ll check into this for you, and get back to you…” like other businesses? Why didn’t they hassle me to ship the worthless defective item back at my cost, and hang up the replacement until they processed the return? Now that is the sort of customer service I’m used to dealing with.
Honestly after I hung up the phone I really felt like a valuable customer. I’ve had a couple of small problems and PA has always been very reasonable dealing with me. I’m getting spoiled.
Herb
BG_Farmer,
I agree with you about velocity. But I reported it because everyone wanted to know. See how Matt reacted?
These small vintage guns are so smooth and nice because they do not try to be magnums. That is a major part of their character.
B.B.
Chuck,
Based on your age I’m surprised your teachers didn’t tie your left arm to your body to teach you the “right” way of doing things.
B.B.
Herb,
Your kind remarks have been forwarded to the owners, management and sales team at Pyramyd AIR. Everybody likes to hear when they have done a good job, and your comments will have a profound impact.
B.B.
BB,
Back in my day you were burned at the stake, so I did everything right handed in public. Explains why I never did so well in school. Well, that plus I never paid very much attention to what the teacher was saying.
Seriously, I never got any flack from my teachers about it.
For some reason, though, I golf and bat right handed. Shows I could have been retrained, I guess.
Matt,
Based on your word verification I would suggest you’re on the wrong web site. This is the airguns web site not the “Big Guns”.
-Chuck
BB,
Have a look at the Benjamin Classic spring rifle for me. It doesn’t make sense to only offer it in .22cal with only 495fps. Is the power a typo? Beautiful gun, but a bit pricey for the same power plant as the Quest1000. Thanks
Shadow express dude
I ran the Artillery vs Death Grip test with my Ruger AirHawk which is supposed to shoot 1000fps. I used Beeman Crow-Magnum, 8.8gr. My fps numbers are similar to BB’s AirHawk Elite review using Crosman Premier 7.9gr. His results were: Avg-815; Spread-791-833.
I shot 5 extra artillerys (#2) just to make sure things hadn’t drastically changed due to equipment.
Things looked a little supportive, but not much, of BB’s findings until my second set of artillery. They were lower than the death grip. I only shot 5 the second time because I thought that would be enough, but, I don’t know. Maybe I should have shot more.
Summary:
Artillery #1
Low – 841.67
Hi – 870.48
Av – 854.26
Dlta- 28.81
StDv- 8.42
Death Grip
Low – 840.44
Hi – 862.17
Av – 852.32
Dlta- 21.73
StDv- 6.32
Artillery #2
Lo – 838.70
Hi – 863.59
Av – 850.92
Dlta- 24.89
StDv- 10.09
I sorted these details high to low for easy comparison.
Detail fps:
Artillery #1 | DeathGrip | Artillery #2
————— | ————– | ————-
870.48 ———- 862.17 —— 863.59
859.60 ———- 860.40 —— 858.99
859.42 ———- 855.77 —— 847.98
857.71 ———- 853.78 —— 845.37
856.74 ———- 852.70 —— 838.70
853.24 ———- 851.68
849.47 ———- 849.47
849.41 ———- 848.57
844.90 ———- 848.28
841.67 ———- 840.44
-Chuck
SED,
That Benjamin Classic is obviously a Canadian-spec rifle. Sorry.
B.B.
CJr,
Thank you for your testing. That was lot to go through, but now we have a clearer picture.
B.B.
BB, not that it really matters – but that spring is probably weak.
The one in Wayne’s Haenel was REALLY bad, so I had to get something else in there. The spring for the Industry B3 was the right diameter, but it was way too long and had a thicker wire. I went through several iterations of cutting coils off and re-flattened the end. At one point it was doing over 500fps with Gamo Match pellets, and dieselling! I cut it down further to get it in the mid 400’s, which didn’t seem to combust the oil and I didn’t think it was gonna overstress the direct-sear trigger.
Also I just finished taking apart my first Crosman V350, and let me tell you – it’s not your average BB gun. It has a large number of machined (rather than stamped) parts, and frankly in terms of quality of construction something like the Red Ryder just isn’t in the same league at all.
Herb,
I’d like to chime in with good comments about PA’s customer service too.
But, I’ve got noth’n to say. The last few orders have shipped on time and without a hitch.
BTW… the new pellet packing looks good.
DB
Matt61,
400fps is about what my IZH61 does… with a twang.. like a staple gun..
both are only accurate plinkers.. but
Personally I like the feel of the old wood stocks, and solid thud of these old guys at 400fps.. PERFECT for springers.. that’s really the only type springers I like anymore..
A decent PCP like the Disco is the next step, then they’re are many steps in that world.. An Air Arms S410 can be your only step with it’s power adjuster..maybe.. anyway..
When you really taste it.. or when I tasted it.. I sold off all the high speed springers.. and started buying the old classics, and having Vince bring them up to snuff..
Much more fun shooting IMHO..
and they seem to hold or gain in value too!!
Wacky Wayne
Ashland Air Rifle Range
is this a joke.. the word verification is “diesperm”
that would be the end of the world, wouldn’t it?
B.B.,
Regarding the .177 P1 that we discussed the other day, I took your suggetion and began shooting the Crossman cardboard box 7.95-8.10 pellets to see if the accuracy improved.
First, here are (2) 9-shot velocity strings at 2 feet from muzzle:
454 459
471 467
459 452
461 462
470 452
464 459
444 440
468 455
463 462 The overall average velocity is about 460 fps with a range of about 440-470 fps using the crossman pellets, yielding about 3 3/4 ft. lbs. at muzzle. This is about twice what my Drozd bb machine gun does, but still not what I was hoping for to dispatch rats and squirrels out to 15 yards.
With this speed at the muzzle, at 15 yards I figure a drop of about 50 fps to about 410 fps = 3 ft. lbs. I know this will kill a rat with a head shot…how about a squirrel, B.B.?
Regarding accuracy, with the cp’s so far very disappointing…so much over an inch after 40 shots that I have not yet taken out the ruler. I will try a few more groups, try some different pellets, and await your response or any other reader who is familiar wiith this air pistol.
Thank you all.
– Dr. G.
B.B.,
I continued shooting groups with the cp’s for a half hour with never better than 1″.
Very discouraged, I thought that I would shoot the Beretta just to prove to myself again that I was still getting the good groups as before.
I had just received a large # of various new brands of pellets from PA, including some new Beretta pellets which were advertised as meant for Beretta CO2 guns. There were two types 1.) Ultra Match 7.16-7.26 and 2.) Target 8.16-8.26. I was impressed (I weighed them) with the narrow range of variability that the [German made] pellets showed, and when I tried them in the Beretta I was able to get consistent 8-shot 3/4″-7/8″ groups.
So, I tried them in the P1 and got the best groups yet. After shooting another 80 or so pellets over the next couple hours I consistently got 5/8″ -3/4″ groups of 5. Still not acceptable from what I have heard the gun should shoot.
I adjusted the scope down to 4 and then 3 power, and then made things clearer and brighter, and prevented the reticles from moving around so noticeably. Eventually I found that a clear 4x was producing 1/8″ better groups than a blurrier 5X, and I think that if I had the trigger adjusted down to where I like it (8-12 ozs.) the groups would improve another 1/8″.
Still, I wonder whether it is the gun or me that is not producing ANY 1/2″ or better groups?
Thanks again. I will stay awake waiting for your response.
Actually, just kidding.
– Dr. G.
Dr. G.,
It’s too early for me to start shooting but in a while I will chrono my P1 with 7.9-grain Premiers for a comparison.
I have never shot a P1 for accuracy with a scope, so I can’t compare with what you are doing, but with open sights mine does shoot better than yours. Usually a scope increases accuracy, but with a handgun I suspect that it doesn’t. Perhaps too much parallax.
Have you checked the fit of your barrel? It should be tight. It’s held in by a crossbar near the breech.
B.B.
B.B.,
From the reports that I have read, including those written by you, the expected fps for the P1 at muzzle in .177 is around 550.
So, I know that this air pistol shoots slowly…I was simply wondering if this low speed is withing “normal range” low speed or whether it indicates a problem.
As you may recall, I had a similar question re. my .177 54 air rifle after it had been tuned for smoothness by Rich of Mich and was producing at the muzzle around 720-790 fps…I wondered whether this was simply the lower end of normal range or whether it indicated a malfunction (e.g., weak spring, breach seal, etc.).
The general consesus at the time from you and from the feedback that I received from this forum was that there was something out of whack producing such slow shots for the 54 and so I followed up by sending the 54 to both Rich and Vince to get to the bottom of the issue. I am wondering if the same professional assistance needs to be done with this air gun (in this instance because of possible accuracy and velocity issues versus simply velocity issues)?
Thanks again.
– Dr. G.
.38super is making a comeback!!!
Taurus is now offering many all new guns (see “whats new” catalog) in .38 super. So, I think this will boost the availability of the round and, if more production is pursued, then cost should decline to from that lofty $27 a box. Check out the new taurus guns, totally new concepts including new carry guns, High Cap 1911s, and a bunch of other guns.
Shadow express dude
Wayne,
I read that seeds sales are up 50 % this year. I’m guessing that will make it a banner year for airgun and firearm purchases for you. Hope all is well.
Volvo
Dr. G.,
Volvo asked before I did. Are you cocking to the second notch?
Here are my results from 7.9-grain Premiers with the muzzle 1 foot from the start screen:
515
516
505
514
511
511
505
508
507
505
I rounded the numbers off, so my average of 510 may not calculate exactly, since I let the Chrony figure it for me.
Then I shot 7.0-grain RWS Basics, for a comparison:
536
552
560
554
555
540
549
548
550
552
The average was 550, which is right where the gun was back in 1996, when I tested it for The Airgun Letter. Amazing that no power has been lost over 12-13 years of ownership/use.
If it turns out that you are cocking fully, I suspect that your barrel isn’t seated back far enough to contact the breech seal. Also, what is the condition of that breech seal o-ring?
My pistol has several thousand rounds on the clock by now. I don’t shoot it as much as I used to, but it still gets dragged out now and then.
My gun had its spring tarred in 1996, which clipped some velocity. And I dry-fired it 4 times per Don Walker’s instructions, to get the piston seal to fit properly. That’s another fix you can try. The Teflon seal squishes out to fill the compression chamber when the gun is dry-fired twice.
B.B.
B.B./Volvo,
Yes, of course I am cocking it to the 2nd stop. Good try, anyway, guys.
I was firing it on the first cocking for awhile but because the pellet stays in the barrel longer when it travels slower the slower cocking speed makes it shoot a couple inches higher than the faster cocking speed, and since my scope had no reticles I could not reliably adjust back and forth from one impact point to another.
I am exclusively interested right now in using accurate hunting air guns (e.g., Whiscombe, 54) for target practice and then transferring that accuracy to the field. So, I was not really interested in getting accustomed to the lower power in any way, and have been exclusively using the higher power for the last 600 shots.
So, B.B., this air pistol is clearly about 10% (460 vs. 510 fps) slower than yours…I will dry fire twice and report back.
I hear you re. the parallax question and suspect the same issues. I will try using the 2X scope (10 yard parallax, noticeably less reticle shift vs. 5X scope) and see if that improves the groups.
On about 1 out of 8 groups and only using the Beretta pellets I have produced vertical strings about 1/2″ to 5/8″ in length and about 1/4″ wide, but the rest of the groups are random around the Point of Aim.
I do find using the middle finger to hold the handle and letting the gun bounce is best, just as if it were a firearm. A couple decades back I enjoyed several thousand rounds through a .357 magnum firearm over a few years time, and as a youth I also shot for many years a Crossman .22 CO2 revolver (I don’t know what the model was called, but it looked like a .38 or .357 revolver), so I have familiarity with pistols that run the gamut of power.
– Dr. G.
B.B. What’s a fair price for a Theoben Dual Magnum in excellent condition?
Dr. G,
The second part of your inquiry was about the P-1 and hunting squirrels. At the risk of drawing the wrath of its owners, I have to vote no. Yes I know it has been done.
I tried pellet pistol hunting first with Webley Hurricane and then the more powerful P-1 when it came out. I can’t speak to velocity numbers because at the time only gun writers owned a Chrony so I had to learn the hard way.
While target powered air rifles at 575 fps with a STD weight pellet are considered very acceptable, the reason for this is the accuracy in which they can deliver their pellet. That surgical prescion makes them reliable even with the lower power.
Beeman advertised the P-1 at 600 fps which actually made it sound faster than a target rifle, but that is not the case with a STD pellet. So in a nutshell when you combine low power and inherently less useable accuracy than a rifle the results are not pretty. Once you have to finish a critter off with the heel of your boot a few times I think you will agree.
My final conclusion on air pistols was to keep them for plinking and target only. What I do carry as a side arm when I go in the field with an air rifle is a Ruger Single Six like the second one here:
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdResults?function=famid&famid=14&variation=Satin%20Stainless%20Convertible&bct=Yes&type=Revolver
You can shoot anything from .22 mag to CB caps. (Use caution, but I have found my pellet trap will contain the CB caps with no problem)
Not only will it dispatch a squirrel cleanly, it a great plinker and adds a measure of protection and versatility a scoped rifle can’t. Like for a rabid raccoon at 15 feet or the uncontrollable urge to play cowboy.
Volvo
Dr G,
One last tidbit:
http://www.weihrauch-sport.de/englisch/e_startseite/e_index.htm
These are the manufacture numbers for your pistol. In my experience HW is usually spot on with what they publish. Unfortunately some importers round up a good bit.
125 (stage 1) = 410 feet per second
170 (stage 2) = 557 feet per second
The 557 matches nicely with the 550 that BB came up with.
Volvo,
Thank you. In your experience, do the same model spring guns using the same pellet usually shoot velocity within 10% of each other or within a model line would we expect a lower range, say more like 5% or 3%?
I am talking about mid to higher priced spring air guns such as the P1 under discussion or the 54 that we wrote about over the winter when I am aksing about within model variability.
Maybe B.B. knows the answer to this?
Volvo,
According to the maker (Beeman), 3 ft. lbs. to the head will kill a squirrel. I would presume that he would mean any and all squirrels, but I do not have experience with this low energy level of squirrel hunting.
Would you have different experiences?
– Dr. G.
Consistency:
My experience with HW spring guns is that they are extremely close velocity wise. 3% sounds appropriate in either direction of what the factory states – not Beeman.
For example Beeman advertises the R-7 at 700 fps but HW says 623 if I recall. Obviously the pellet makes a difference, but even the 623 needs to be with moderate weight pellet. So if I had an R-7 or HW30S hitting less than 604 fps with a light hobby pellet I would think it would need attention. Same with your P-1 if BB’s tips don’t work.
The only “bad” HW I ever had was a 97 that was about 80 ft per second off. Paul Watts was able to get it to shoot 100-140 fps over what it had originally.
Minimums:
Keep in mind when Dr. Beeman came up with those numbers even a top of the line magnum air rifle like the FWB 124 was only putting out 11 ft lbs. A “D minus” maybe the minimum passing grade but how much faith would you have in the student? I think that 3 ft lbs is in the same “D” class. I will have to research it but another gentleman put all his numbers at roughly double what Beeman stated – which I would be more inclined to agree with.
Don’t forget accuracy, if you miss the head and hit the chest area (more likely with a pistol) you will not even anchor the squirrel with 3 ft lbs.
Speaking for the squirrels I think they deserve an A or B power level when it’s their turn to leave this world. You don’t need 20 ft lbs (every squirrel I’ve hit with 20 ft lbs or more the pellet completely passes through at any distance) but I think you should start out well north of 5 ft lbs so a clean kill is the rule vs. the exception.
Volvo
Theoben Dual Magnum,
There aren’t a lot of Dual Magnums around, so I don’t have a good handle on what they should cost. I was amazed to see people paying $1,395 for them new a few years back, so I guess that’s the high end of sane now. Hopefully you can get one for a thousand or less.
B.B.
Dr. G.,
I have less experience with spring pistols than with rifles, so I’m afraid I don’t know the answer to your question.
B.B.
Hi Yall
I’ve been doin some surfin on other AG sites, and there seems to be a fair amount of discontent (or malcontents:))over the airguninfo to airgunarena change.So far I’ve had no problems finding what I was after but some folks seem highly upset.Maybe there were things on it I just didn’t know about so I don’t miss em.Nobody’s given any hints to what I’m missing so now I feel left out:(.If I keep lookin I’m sure I can find something to gripe about:)All I can say is:
Keep up the good work PA,you’re all about the sport and the people and thats what we want.
JTinAL
Volvo,
Welcome back!! I pray that the family is well…
Yes, It's looks to be a banner year for raised garden beds… and… so to for guns & ammo.. very hard to get ammo these days…
Although I did get 250 rounds of 32-40 John Wayne winchesters.. here and there on Gunbroker, and so I shot the old (marlin 1893 made in 1903) girl today.. How sweet she is.. The bore cleaned up nice, and she fed smoothly, and the sights were right on at 50 yards.. I only shot 6 of the precious rounds.. Wow is she easy to shoot and that hook butt fits like a glove..
Randys Birthday today, so I'm off to dinner.. maybe more later..
Wayne
I wrote yesterday about not being able to get a clear busseye with my new Winchester 3×9 scope I got from Pyramid Air (where I get all my airguns,ammo,etc).I did some more shooting today after work.I moved my targets back to about 13 yards/39 feet again.I lowered the power of the scope down to get as clear a picture as I could. I’ve been shooting a lot on targets I get from various websites that have printable targets.I’ve come to the conclusion that its not a good way to go.I am finding that because of the thin/light printing paper I am not getting a good reflection of the groups. The paper tears too easily and so you can’t tell if the pellets are keyholing.Also because of the easy tearing of the paper, you can’t really see the group.Usually it makes the groups look worse than they are (and I already need all the help I can get!). I switched back to my Gamo paper targets and guess what? It usually shows vary clean pellet holes, and with the added resistance to tearing, my groups are showing a noticeably smaller size!!Best group with my new Beeman 1024 breakdown rifle shows four shots into maybe 1/8th”, and one slight flyer making it into maybe 1/4″.This gun likes Gamo ammo!Gamo Match,HGamo Hunter and Gamo Magnum shoot very well
I did order a Leapers scope today from PA.I ordered the “Leapers Golden Image 4X32mm Range Estimating A.O. Full Size Master Sniper Scope”. I’m feeling better about my shooting today, and I guess the printable targets are cheaper and easy to make, but the results are not worth it.
Jon
Jon Neet,
a while ago someone on the Blog suggested putting adhesive tape on the thin printer paper we use when printing targets. The tape aids making clean holes in the paper. I’ve used duct tape but any tape will do. Give it a try and let us know what your experience is.
Fred
Jon,
I understand the printed target problem. I bought 100 wt. bond paper thinking it would stop the tearing but it didn’t. Usually I find the really fast guns punch a clean hole while the slower guns tear.
-Chuck
Thanks for the comments. My Beeman 1024 is a slower velocity airgun. I don’t have a chrongraph, but it’s advertised velocity is supposed to be around 550 fps.My Crossman 1077 is no fireball either.
Jon
B.B. & Volvo,
I shot the P1 without pellets twice and it really cracked loudly and emitted a dieseling odor.
Then I shot 11 cp's and sure enough, it was 15 fps faster on average (a negligible but measurably significant difference) and the range narrowed by about 5 fps from 30 to 25.
Then I shot it two more times without pellets and a really interesting thing happened when I measured the next five shots through the chrony with cp's…no change in velocity, but they all were coming through at 470-475, now yielding 4 ft.lbs. at the muzzle.
When I shot the preferred (for accuracy) 7.2 grain beretta ultra match pellets the speed upped to around 520, yielding 4 1/3 ft. lbs.
I didn't have time to pursue this further, but thought you'd want to know what happened thus far.
If I get close to any squirrels over the next period of time then I will let you know what happened.
– Dr. G.
Jon,
At such a close range, most scopes will not look clear. You have already discovered the way to rectify this, as far as it can be done.
The 4-power Leapers scope you bought should be very clear at this distance. The Bug Buster would be the perfect scope fort you because it focuses down to 9 feet. Read about it here:
/blog/2005/6/bug-bustin/
and here:
/article/Leapers_scopes_August_2004/17
As for paper targets, what most folks don’t know is that bond paper (the stuff you are now using) has a “grain” to it. It tears along the grain. Target paper has no grain and tends to tear a lot less. But there are cheap targets that still tear badly.
You need good targets to stop the tearing. Look at targets made by National Target Company. Pyramyd AIR has them. I use them exclusively and you see what my targets look like.
B.B.
Dr. G.,
Okay! You have now probably sized your piston to the compression chamber. That’s where the increase came from. The sharp cracks you heard are exactly what should have happened. I heard them, too.
The consistency with the Premiers is encouraging. That’s how the pistol should behave.
I still think the seal at the breech is the problem, if there still is one. The P1 is very sensitive in that area.
It all hinges on how well that barrel was positioned when it was installed. It must press against the o-rings when it closes. Also, the o-ring must be perfect.
B.B.
Thanks, B.B.. I’ll check into those targets too. The Gamo targets also seem to work well.
Jon
Dr G,
Glad to hear you’re progressing on the P-1.
Couple of thoughts on the game side.
We are speaking about Fox or Grey squirrels? Not little ground squirrels or chipmunks?
If so and you connect on a head shot with that P-1 I would approach with caution if he went down like a sack of potatoes. Possibly you just rang his bell. I would give him a few nudges and a little room. Sorry if this is very basic, but I’m not sure of your level of experience. I have taken enough varmints over the years that if you were to make a video montage it would look like the beach scene from saving Private Ryan.
I have to admit; possibly due to the declining testerone levels of old age I have mostly adopted a kinder, gentler attitude. Mostly. I still find myself called to duty on occasion.
Happy shooting.
Volvo
The other thing is, since I have a long history of shooting powder guns, and lots of long range handgun metallic sihlouette competetion and just target shooting, I have a long history using the six o’clock hold.I find, even using a scope, I get better precision in aiming, if I align the crosshairs at the bottom of the black bull at six o’clock.So I went back to this.If you do this and get nice small groups, then if you have a target with one bullseye, you actually can shoot four seperate groups with it.I just put a tape measure to my best group from yesterday after work, and it’s closer to 5/16″ than 1/4″ at 39 feet, but I’ll take it at this point.I have been taping the targets to a piece of cardboard and leaning that against a “cube” that is made from vinyl covered foam rubber.It’s actually a furniture item maybe 14″ on a side.It’s supposed to be used for maybe a portable little table,or foot prop,or can even be sat on.The foam rubber will hold a lot of pellets.Its also a whole lot quieter than some metal pellet traps.Then I just write under each group the shooting info, and if the shooting was productive, I’ll keep them.
jon
Question
Has anyone built a copy of the Marlin 1893 as a PCP big bore?
That hook butt feels so good that it fits almost as good as the Daystate CR 97 with the long hook coming off the butt…
Somehow the slim Marlin 1893 (made in 1903), lays perfectly balanced, while the metal butt hook plate locks the back of the rifle as well as the field target rifle.
I’m just learning about calibers and cartridges…. I was surprised to find the Marlin 32-40 winchester 165gr easier to shoot than the Marlin 336 30-30 150gr. (which is super easy!)
I guess with the mighty John Wayne putting his name on it, I though it was going to be this big and power round.. but it’s a sweet little pussy cat instead…
So, when I get into reloading, thanks to Tom, I’ll be shooting this old sweet thing a lot!!
Can’t wait to get my own office/gun room… this sharing with the raised garden bed office is not working very well!!
Anyhow, this seems like a marketable copy to do, even in .25 cal. at 800-850fps, a Kodiak can be accurate and have plenty of foot lbs… And it won’t cost $2.00 per round to shoot it!!
Wayne
Wayne,
Wayne,
Sounds like a great idea.
I love the lever guns.
The Korean levers just don’t quite have the look like this does:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=124592782
Volvo
Volvo,
That looks about like mine, but the butt stock on mine has a large crack in it.. The bluing is a little darker on mine though.
My AR6 was not even close…. but a far off attempt is good..
Wayne
Wayne,
The ones I was thinking of are below. If someone could westernize the appearance a little more, ala the Walther CO2 rifle, I would guess they would be great sellers.
The barrel on magazine format of lever gun seems to be a natural platform; I assume the challenge is in the air tube size proportion.
/product/seneca-sumatra-2500-500cc-reservoir?m=1077
/product/career-iii-707?m=1198
volvo
Volvo,
Yes, I know about those Korean guys..
They could be a good base to start with.. change the stock, slim down the front to balance it out, even if we loose number of shots.. but that might not be the case, when one matches the length of the 26-30″ octagonal barrel… A long thin air tank might work good matching the marlins magazine..
I think a pretty close copy could be made to work very well..
Wayne
B.B. & Volvo,
I think I am closing in on solving the problem with the P1 not grouping small enough. A hundred shots later…
…I changed something and am now very consistently shooting 5 to 8- shot vertical strings of 5/8" or 1/2" long and a very acceptable (to me) 1/8" wide.
As you may recall, I had done this a few times earlier, but now I am always doing it. It is very impressive and satisfying to me to aim at the "3" on the GAmo target vertical number string (as others have noted, the numbers help allign the crosshairs) and consistently knock out most of the numbers immediately above or below, and every so often actually hit much of the "3."
To me this indicates that the pistol has potential accuracy of 8-shot 1/8" to 1/4" ctc once I can shrink the strings through better technique and feedback from you'all.
Any guesses as to what essential change that I made?
Volvo, I would leave it to nobody other than someone who is named after a car identified with safety to remind me to stay safe around dead squirrels:) One of my dogs has learned on his own to sit by my side until I give him the okay, at which point he charges toward and accosts the dead (?) animal. I checked with my vet and there is no danger to my dog…he is pretty careful.
Interestingly to me, the whole reason I re-entered the world of airguns was that a few years ago a rabid raccoon made his way onto my property and my other dog was not savvy enough to protect himself. The police suggested that I call Animal Control, and they in turn said that they could be here on the first tuesday of the following month.
In the meanwhile I had one curious Collie and one Belgian Tervuren puppy barking outside at a very sick 'coon backed into a corner of my house with no place to go. I really wished for my firearms (which I had sent away for several years for safe keeping – ha ha – while my children were still young). The next week I sent away for Tech Force 90 something, an absolutely horrible air rifle that encouraged me to buy more.
The squirrels here are about the biggest, juicest, fattest grey squirrels that I have ever seen, as they live in a land free from natural predators. The rats here around the garbage dump sometimes are several pounds, but they are not as tough to kill as squirrels.
I have shot hundreds of rats and squirrels over the past few years. Sometimes I go to their home, at the town dump. Sometimes they come to my home. Usually they don't stay long.
– Dr. G.
Dr. G.,
I will guess you turned down the brightness of the dot. That increases accuracy through greater aiming precision.
The vertical stringing is due to your grip.
Something isn’t consistent yet.
B.B.
Duct seal users…..
Kerosene removes it from your fingers…that’s in case it was never mentioned.
twotalon
Wayne,
I keep forgetting that all these firearms are new to you. So get ready for another one to love.
A Wimchester model ’92 in .44-40 is a wonderful gun. You’ll hate the clumsy action on the ’94 after trying the ’92. And if you want bigger cartridges, get an 1886. I used a ’92 as a stunt fighter at Frontier Village back in the 1960s, and mine had a enlarged lever loop with an auto trigger switch for Rifleman tricks.
If you want a modern equivalent, try a modern ’92 in .45 Colt.
B.B.
Stunt Fighter?!! BB, what have you NOT done?!!
-Chuck
Chuck,
I’m an old fool. So I have tread in dangerous places, not knowing better.
Check the last photo in this report:
/blog/2007/10/utg-m4-part-2-built-in-america/
B.B.
B.B.,
I switched scopes from a 5X pistol scope to a 10x air rifle scope. Once I did this I saw that reticles shifting (parallax?), especially the horizontal one, had been causing subtle POA shifts with the pistol scope.
The air rifle reticles were much sharper and I was able to lock in on the horizontal plane. I saw that each heartbeat makes the vertical POA jump, which is causing the vertical string. I did not see this heartjumping with the pistol scope because the reticles were not as sharp and they moved as a function of eye placement making it impossible to determine what was causing vertical movement.
For some reason when I start to pull the string closer (I shot some 3/8″ strings over the last few hours), the horizonatal spreads out, but at least now I feel like I am actually having some impact on where the pellet lands. My best so far is starting to look more like a group again, maybe around 7/16″ or a little better (which is better than 5/8″ or worse) for 5-shots, and some encouraging 3-shot groups of 1/4.”
I appreciate B.B. your saying that you thought that I was a good shot from the beretta results, as I was getting close to quitting. Your words encouraged me to keep it up with the belief that I would get it, and I do think that I will.
P.S. I don’t suppose firing the 54 without a pellet does any good like it did the P1, does it?
Thanks again.
– Dr. G.
off topic but,
Can you use the crosman 64 peep sight on rifles other than the benji and sheridan?
B.B.
I’ll check that one out too!!
Thanks
Wayne
…tread in dangerous places…
Now, that looks like fun! Will you be doing that at the Phoenix show in May? 😀
-Chuck
B.B.
Now that looks like a fun job..
Where do I sign up?
San Jose in the 60s?.. we went through there to visit my grandma in Watsonville..
The first winchester 92 that popped up on gunbroker was poor condition and the "buy it now" was only $7,999.00 for a "trapper C&R 15" original rare".. others or only $1,200…
Think I'll look at the pawn shops in town… but I can't see how they are better than the Marlin 1893 as far as "Cowboy" goes… and they ejected out the top back then too!!
Wayne
Dr. G.,
Well, I missed that one on every count! I never thought of increasing magnification.
As far as dry-firing springs guns goes, it only works on guns that have Teflon piston seals. The Webley rifles a few years back had them and gins like the Vulcan II and III and the Beeman C1 did work that way.
But normally, dry-firing doesn’t work. Certainly not with the Diana 54.
B.B.
Dave,
The Crosman model 64 peep sight attaches with screws that are tapped into the gun’s receiver. They need a receiver of approximately the same thickness as the Benjamin 392 to fit correctly.
That is a Williams sight and it virtually identical to the Beeman Sport Aperture sight, except for how it attaches. I realize it doesn’t LOOK similar, but functionally, it is. The Beeman, however, attaches to 11mm dovetails.
B.B.
Chuck,
Not hardly! Today I look more like the victim. I was 20 then.
B.B.
Wayne,
Yes, Winchester 92s are expensive. The reason for that is they are the slickest lever action ever made. There is almost no comparison between a 92 and a Marlin.
Fortunately the 92 is still being made by other companies. I don’t know if the modern guns are as slick as the original, but I see no reason why they shouldn’t be.
B.B.