Hey! You! Get offa my cloud! – Part 1

Introduction by B.B. Pelletier

Well, good old Vince is standing on the turnbuckle, ready to pounce on me today with ABSOLUTE PROOF that B.B. Pelletier exaggerates! The nerve of that cheeky fellow!

Even so, I will permit his feeble attempt to embarrass me in front of all you readers, as we learn whether the old Crosman flying ashcans were really better or worse than cheap Chinese pellets.

Go on, Vince. Give it your best shot!

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Hey! You! Get offa my cloud!

by Vince
“Believe me, you wouldn’t want to go back to those times! The cheapest Chinese pellets are better than what we used to get from Crosman.”

Those immortal words, which cut me to the quick, were spoken by our very own B.B. back in Feb. 2008, and he was referring to the old “Super Pells” that Crosman used to make pretty much until the current Crosman pellets started production. I dunno what makes this guy think he can come along and just squish some of my fondest childhood memories just because he knows what he’s talking about…but a-squishing he did go!

You see, one of the fondest joys of my preteen and early teen years was shooting the Slavia 619 my Dad gave me, one that I think he bought in the ’50s shortly before I was born. Before he gave it to me, he made sure I understood that THIS WAS NOT A TOY, and it was light-years above the Daisy-Sears 1894 he had gotten me a few years prior. It had a RIFLED SOLID STEEL BARREL, just like the guns in the WWII fighter planes I read so much about, and it could actually KILL THINGS. He once did in a garter snake with it.

I shot the dickens out of that Slavia. I savored every trigger-pull as if I were unleashing some SERIOUS POWER on an unsuspecting tree, target or old model airplane. And it was ACCURATE! My Daisy 1894 couldn’t hold a candle to it (my 179 pistol was a joke), and I prided myself on being able to whack the old metal Crosman pellet tins very consistently at about 30-35 feet. Doesn’t sound like much now, but back then it would handily out-shoot any BB gun owned by anyone else I knew.

And it did all this usually while shooting Crosman “Super Pells.” In fact, I remember when they phased out the metal containers and switched to plastic. As they got empty, I’d shoot at those little red lids (about 1-1/8″ square). I usually did so with success. More often than not, I’d nail ‘em, but they were certainly more difficult to hit than my usual victims. I seem to remember thinking back then that those were about the smallest targets I could reliably hit at that range.

So, 35 years later B.B. comes along and tells me that these pellets with which I dazzled my friends and myself were ever so horrible, so I’m thinking that I must be mis-remembering and overestimating my standards of youthful marksmanship. Because the “cheapest Chinese pellets,” as most of us know, are the Industry brand globs that set a standard of inconsistency second to none. When I’d gotten back into airguns a mere 5 years ago, I made the mistake of assuming that pellets were all pretty much the same. After all, the Slavia of my youth didn’t seem to care if I was using Daisy or Crosman. Predictably, then, I wasted a lot of money buying those Industry pellets before I discovered exactly how bad they really were (yes, sometimes I’m a little slow on the uptake!). If the old Super Pells were even worse than these, as B.B. says, I NEVER would have been able to shoot as well as I seem to remember.

A year or so ago, I bought a QB57 that included the NEW Industry brand pellets (in the red tin) which I coincidentally was itching to try out. You see, I knew that Shanghai was trying to clean up its act with its new series of airguns–the AR1000, QB15, QB18, and so on–and I figured that they MUST have done something about those horrible pellets. Well, they did something, all right. These are obviously from a different mold. When I finally got to try them, they seem to shoot just as badly. Maybe even worse.

Back to my snit. How could B.B. possibly say that the old Crosman flying ashcans were as bad as these Industry brand lumps? Is it possible that my memories are that horribly distorted? Or is B.B. wildly exaggerating and just playing games with my head? So, when my Dad recently gave me his old Crosman 1008 CO2 pistol with a couple of containers of Super Pells stuffed in the box,it dawned on me that I could find out for myself.

I decided to shoot these against the much-loathed Industry pellets just to prove a point. And I would shoot them against other inexpensive wadcutter pellets just to see how they fare against modern stuff that ISN’T crap-in-a-can.

The contestants

Starting at upper right, the tried and trusty Gamo Match had to be included in this test. After all, it’s cheap–as low as $1.86 per tin of 250. Accounting for inflation, that’s certainly cheaper than the 99-cent Super Pells of the early 1970s.

Next to the Gamos are the late, lamented Super Pells that were so callously slandered on these very pages, in the later plastic container. They look ready for a fight, don’t they?

Middle left and middle right are two Chinese wadcutters that would prefer to pretend that they aren’t related by nationality to the Industry Brand stuff. Both the Beeman on the left and the Daisys think of themselves as respectable pellets, even though either can be found for about $3 per tin of 500. Of course, ANYTHING with the Beeman name is going to be good, right? And as for Daisy, they call theirs “Precision Max.” The “Max” stands for either “Maximum” or “Maxwell” (or “Maxine”?), and this test is gonna find out which!

Lower left is the Industry brand tin. As we’ll see shortly, the container is made with infinitely more precision than the actual pellet.

Lower right is the tried-and-trusty Crosman Copperhead wadcutter. A lot of guys still like them. If you can still find them in the clear plastic boxes, you’ll usually see that the price is often under $4 per 500.

You can doll up anything and make it look good, so let’s strip away the fancy packaging and see what the pellets inside actually look like:

Ok, Ok. I’ll admit it–the Super Pell doesn’t look too good. In fact, it looks downright funky with that dished–yes, dished!–nose. Maybe it’s a parabolic reflector that gathers up stray gamma rays and concentrates them onto the target to increase the destructive energy unleashed upon impact? I dunno. But it’s my story, and I’m sticking to it.

For pure wonderment (or bewilderment), the Industry pellet rapidly draws the eye away from the roughly hewn Super Pell. To my eye, it sorta looks like it’s in motion even while standing still. Maybe a little like a hula dancer in mid-hip-wiggle, or something like that.

Already I’m getting encouraged. But which guns to test with?

The weapons:
Since the Super Pells were designed back in the days before the magnum wars, it seemed only fair to avoid using the heavy-hitters in my gun closet. I’d want to use guns that were of the general velocity range that Crosman might have anticipated for these pellets.

Starting from the top there’s my Hammerli 490, which after a going-through and a SERIOUS amount of coaxing in the pivot area has turned into a nice shooter. It’s sort of a descendent of the old Shanghai-built Industry B2 except that it looks much better, shoots much better and is probably more reliable because it has a bit less power. It does mid-500s with normal weight pellets.

Next is a Gamo Sporter 500. The same basic gun has been around for quite a while and was also sold under the Daisy name a few years ago. It’s typical Gamo in that it has a mediocre trigger, a lot of spring twang and is quite accurate with the right pellet. This gun tends to shoot around 700 fps. A while ago, an online dealer was closing these things out for $60 and I got two of them.

At mid-700s the Slavia 634 is a bit more potent than the Gamo, and is a better-made gun in every respect. It’s one of the few guns I’ve got which has never been apart (except for the trigger) because it just didn’t need any improvement.

The RWS 93 is the most powerful gun of the test, generally doing about 800 fps. It’s full-sized and heavy for the power (heavier than a model 94), but is a very pleasant gun to shoot. It’s made by Cometa of Spain and can be very accurate with the right pellet.

The next rifle is a Diana 26 I recently picked up used at a local, hole-in-the-wall gun shop. It’s in decent shape and tends to shoot in the low 700s. A very nice rifle with the older T01 trigger, it’s another gun that is a joy to use.

And lastly, but not leastly, is my old, trusty, still-in-very-good-shape 300 fps Slavia 619. But there’s a little history here I oughta explain first.

The 619, like some other early Slavias, had a delicate post front sight. When I was a kid, I broke it off. For years, I made do with a makeshift front sight fabricated from a coat hanger and held on with a small hose clamp. When I got older, I decided to fix it right by brazing a new post in place. While doing so, I also boogered up the front 1-2″ of the bore. Still don’t know what happened, but to my horror the bore in that area got really rough and accuracy went in the toilet. Instead of seeking sage advice, I did the next worst thing: I drilled out the front 2″ of the bore with a 13/64″ drill bit and recrowned the now-recessed end of the rifling as best I could. That improved things, but it still shot poorly until I did a better job on the crown and scrubbed the bore really well with J-B Non-Embedding Bore Cleaning Compound and a brass brush. After that treatment, the bore and the crown looked REAL GOOD–but only shootin’ will tell if it’s right.

Well, that’s the lineup for this test. Next time, we’ll find out once and for all if B.B. Pelletier EXAGGERATES!

84 Responses to “Hey! You! Get offa my cloud! – Part 1”

  • Vince Says:

    JTinAL – the 490 in this blog is the one I sold you, so you’ll get to see how well it shot for me. And you’ll probably wonder why I sold it.

    Like I am.

  • Mr B. Says:

    Morning Vince,

    Not only are you are you skilled in the ways of of the springer, but also in the ways of the word. Loved your descriptions of the various pellets standing in that line–hula dancer with a mid hip wiggle, too much sir.

    The hyperbolist verses the exaggerator–stay tuned folks!!!

    Mr B.

  • Phil L. Says:

    Great blog entry!

    Something all of us might be interested in: I saw a link to a “cool high-speed pictures of things getting shot” item – but a quick look confirmed that these are airgun pellets being frozen in time!

    Take a look (yeah, it’s a long URL):

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1164962/Extraordinary-pictures-capture-moment-flying-bullet-tears-strawberry-paintball-crayons.html

  • J-F Says:

    I really hope the second part is coming monday because I can’t wait to read it.
    Great article and great writing.

    J-F

  • Anonymous Says:

    Can’t remember enjoying an entry more and I enjoy almost all of them.

    Must be Monday, can’t wait.

    Al Pellet

  • Anonymous Says:

    You know, another name for soldering flux is “acid paste”…maybe that’s why you ruined the bore. Did you wash the work in lots of hot water?

  • twotalon Says:

    Vince…
    You are showing your age!!!
    I remember those days of the metal pellet tins of the only brand available…Crosman.

    Low powered airguns used at close range for plinking and pest hunting in the barn with a flashlight at night. In the daytime you could see the pellet fly through the air. Nobody ever thought about a scope….the idea was absurd. Hunting game with an airgun????…Nobody would ever think of it!!!!

    Those were great times.

    Can’t wait to see how your testing comes out.

    twotalon

  • Anonymous Says:

    Hi Vince
    You started just like me! My Dad gave me a Slavia 618 (any different to the 619?) which I still have. I sort of made a name for myself with it in my early teens. I can’t remember the pellets I used though but I shot match sticks at 15 ft. It was only when I got back into airguning a few years ago I realized that airguns had a preference for pellets

    Ton

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Vince,
    You’re a worse tease than BB:). My money goes on the Copperheads — when they work, they are the best deal going. The only pellet I’ve ever been disgusted with is the Industry 200 ct. plastic “tin” that is included with IB rifles…they vary not only in weight also head size and skirt diameter, from ones that won’t go into the breech to others that slide through the barrel if its pointed downward. I really want to like the Daisy’s, but they are limited to very casual plinking:). Mainly I buy a tin every once in a while for the screw-top lid and put Copperhead Wadcutters in it (they come in a blister) for my wife to shoot.

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    JT,
    Good write-up yesterday. I’m happy to see you weren’t disappointed. You’ll either get used to the auto-safety or disable it; I turn it off right after cocking, so its not that “safe”:). I think either Vince or Jim (from whom BB bought the Haenel) would know how to disable it.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Hey Vince…that little Slavia 619 looks exactly like the Liberty that my friend has.
    We poured some 30 weight into it and this weekend we’re going to remove the stock, sand her down and refinish it.
    I think it will make a great little basement shooter.
    Thanks for all your info.
    CowBoyStar Dad

  • Anonymous Says:

    Vince
    you’re a brave man,taking on the master that way:)
    can’t wait to see how this turns out.
    The only pellets I’ve used on your list are the daisy’s so this will be news for me.
    I’m already wondering how you could let the 490 go so cheap (unless it’s a Jersey to Bama time bomb LOL:)

    BGFarmer
    from the schematics and tuning pics I’ve seen online,it looks like
    I can remove the safety as a unit without affecting function on the rest of the gun.We’ll soon see,keep your fingers crossed for me.

    JTinAL

  • CJr Says:

    Vince, Vince, Vince,
    Dang you and your cliff hanger! Do you realize it’s Friday so we have to wait at least two days before hearing the rest of the story? Oh, the humanity! Terrific post! Neat rifle line-up, too. That Slavia looks pretty scrappy. If it were female, I’d say pert and perky.

    Side note for fat fingered pellet pickers: Do you have trouble picking pellets out of the tin? Do you drop pellets while picking them up from a hard surface? Well, suffer no more! (This may not be news to some of you but it is to me) I cover my shooting table with a folded over, terry cloth, bath towel to sooth my elbows while shooting and to keep from marring the stock. Sprinkle a few pellets onto that and you can pick them up and orient them like a dream. The cloth has a little give to it allowing your fingers to get a good grasp and it’s easy to tip them for proper orientation for insertion. You’re welcome, even if it’s only a reminder.

    -Chuck

  • Vince Says:

    First of all, to anyone anxious to see part 2 – I submitted the whole thing in one lump. BB’s the one who split it up!!!

    Anonymous… no, the soldering paste didn’t do it. Couldn’t have. First, I use rosin (electrical) not acid (plumbing) flux. Second, the hole for the sight does not go through to the barrel bore, so the flux wouldn’t have gotten in there. It has something to do with the high heat needed for bronze brazing.

    Twotalon – I certainly DID think about a scope. I remember, at one point, taking the plastic lenses out of toy binoculars that came in a box of Cap’n Crunch and trying to do something with that. Didn’t have much luck.

    Ton – I think the only difference between a 618 and a 619 is the sling.

    JTinAL, I really went back and forth on selling it, but I’ve got a plethora of low-powered guns and I just didn’t see using it that much. Besides the ones shown here, I also have a QB88 and an HW30.

  • CJr Says:

    BB, BB, BB,
    Dang you and your cliff hanger! Do you realize it’s Friday so we have to wait at least two days before hearing the rest of the story? Oh, the humanity!
    -Chuck

  • Anonymous Says:

    Whoohoo, we’re close to the month of the Marauder.

    Regarding .22 rimfire rifles, it’s hard to know what to think of the semiautos. The Thompson/Center classic has had some mixed reviews with criticisms focused on the magazine reliability. Remington has a new 597 called the Target Varmint Plinker, but it also has realiability issues. The 10/22 has a good reputation with aftermarket work, however, the Clark custom guns which are supposed to be among the best and cost about $1000 only guarantee MOA which isn’t all that great for the price. I’ve heard almost uniformly good things about the Savage BTVS.

    Vince, nice collection. The title of today’s blog reminds me of the Clint Eastwood film Gran Torino which I saw last night and recommend. Can Clint look any craggier? There are also nice cameo appearances by the M1 Garand and 1911 .45 auto.

    Matt61

  • CJr Says:

    BB,
    The scope photos accompanying your Shotgun News article on “New Airgun Scopes” are the most crisp photos I’ve ever seen in any blog. Your target photos there are remarkably clear and crisp, also. Are they from a camera you own or did SGN loan you a professional photographer?
    -Chuck

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Chuck,

    Thank you. Sometimes I get it right. The photos were taken with a Fuji Finepix 9100 camera, which I think is a wonderful value for under $400. The targets were scans from my Epson flatbed 2450. It’s at least 7 years old, so much better scanners are available now for about $100.

    Photographic technology has advanced so far that even duffers can take good pix.

    Until you said something I didn’t know SGN had that article up on their website.

    B.B.

  • CJr Says:

    BB,
    After reading you scope article I was left with the question of what scope would fit my need. I really was impressed with the 9×32 for $249 (looks like it could only focus to 25yds min, though) but maybe there is another that would work for me better and a little cheaper, say cost $150 or less.

    Here’s my requirement, and I want all of these: I need another scope; I want to shoot with the scope at 10yds; I want to be able to spot .22 sized holes with it at 150yds instead of buying a spotting scope; ~$150 seems like a good price point for me; doesn’t have to have illumination; would like a side parallax adjustment.

    I can’t think of anything else to ask for. If I’m asking for too much as it is for my price point, what should I expect to spend?

    And, of course, what would you recommend?

    I feel like I’m asking one of those, “what’s the best gun for me under $100?” questions.

    -Chuck

  • Mo Says:

    Vince,

    Great Write up! I love the way the article is being built!

    Can’t wait to see the results of the hula dancer against the death ray crosmen!! (Plural for Crosman – Crsomen right? lol)

    Mo.

  • Volvo Says:

    Vince,

    I enjoyed your story very much, interesting crop of Springer’s also.

    CJr,

    “pert and perky” I see someone is filling in for me. Nice.

    Matt,

    Reliability wise the 10/22 is about as good as they get. Also don’t forget MOA might be fair to middling with a .308 but it’s not too shabby with a .22LR.

    Volvo

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Chuck,

    I was out at the range yesterday and there ain’t no SPOTTING scope that can see .22 holes at 150 yards–let alone a scope that goes on a rifle!

    I was having a difficult time seeing dark .22 holes on white paper at 100 yards with a spotting scope. Against a black bullseye, no chance!

    Maybe if you shot at a Shoot-N-C target.

    B.B.

  • DB Says:

    Vince,
    Sounds like the into to a good book on pellet and performance.

    Nicely done.
    DB

  • CJr Says:

    BB,
    I concur with the .22 on black. I can barely see that when I’m right next to it. Let me get back to you when I figure out a better question.

    -Chuck

  • Anonymous Says:

    BB you are such a tease
    oh well at least you know what we like.
    Vince glad you've got more nice shooters,cause after about 250 pellets today I'm sure I'm not gonna
    turn this one loose any time soon.

    BGFarmer 1st cock the rifle then
    remove 2 screw covers,remove 3 stock screws,separate stock from action,slide off plastic end cap,tap out roll pin and loosen tiny little screw that faces out from end of chamber in the plastic safety housing,then tap out safety button which is also a pin (easy to tell which way it comes out cause one side is smaller),use needle nose to pull plastic housing out and watch tiny springs and ball bearing fly away:)save springs pins etc. for other projects.carefully de-cock rifle.time spent 5 min.
    Put electrical tape over safety button holes to keep dirt out,replace end cap,try to realign everything to suit me then reassemble and resight in cause I'm clumsy (bumped the windage knob &*%$#@) time spent 10 more min.spend a great sunny afternoon plinking BIG SMILES.

    JTinAL

  • Carter Says:

    Hey, I have some of those old crosman super pellets still in the original packaging, Its funny how they are older then I am (a lot older). They seem to have some power to them compared to 7.9 grain crosman pellets(I’ve seen it with a quest 500) I’m not sure if they really have any more power to them but they appear to.

  • Herb Says:

    RE: Slavia 619 recessed recrown

    Wonder how being recessed would work for a recrown. I remember BB testing a shrouded PCP without the end cap. He decided that the muzzle gas reflected off the shroud and degraded the accuracy. (Ok I’ve given up and started using accuracy for what I know is precision….)

    Have sort of this problem with my Daisy 22SG. The barrel really ends significantly inside a plastic bushing. It seems like the barrel ought to come nearer to the end of the bushing for the best accuracy.

    Herb

  • Herb Says:

    RE: Ballistic coefficient for Super Pell

    Anyone have any idea what the BC for the Crosman Super Pell pellets is?

    Herb

  • Vince Says:

    Herb, you’ll find out how the Slavia works in part 2. The BC for the Super Pell has got to be pretty bad – as I mentioned the nose is dished, which probably makes it worse than a wadcutter.

  • wayne Says:

    Vince,

    Great write up!!
    Your as good with words as you are with your hands and creativeness!

    And that’s good!!

    Why did you leave the HW-30 out of the test? It’s one more of us might have shot..

    So, your challenging the master!!

    I’m on the edge of my seat… and Monday is so far away!! So, I’ll just have to go shooting on this wonderful day in Southern Oregon..

    A new friend (Rick Knowles) from the Tacoma Field target club is down this weekend on a business trip… He is helping us setup our course better.. more in line with the difficulty of the other northwest clubs..

    Then later today he’ll show us how it’s done.. He is one of the top shooters in the Northwest, so this is a great chance to learn things first hand!!

    He’ll be here soon, so I’m getting my guns out to show off.. (pretending I’m getting them ready to shoot today)

    can’t shoot them good, but I can show them off!!!

    I’ll report later..

    Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • Mr B. Says:

    Good morning everyone!

    I agree with you all. Waiting until Monday to read the rest of Vince’s blog just isn’t right. Remember this cliff hanger was set up by B.B. cause he didn’t run this excellent article the way Vince submitted it. Remenber Vince said that he turned it in and it was B.B. who for some obscure reason divided it into two parts.

    Vince, you’re the only one who can correct this mess. You have the rest and could post it here right now! What a wonderful way to reward your loyal readers and suprise the Supreme Exaggerator.

    Am informal poll of your readers, Vince, based upon their comments in your blog, shows overwelming support for this course of action. A partial list of them would include the following individuals: JTinAL, CJr, Mo, twotalon, Al Pellet and J-F.

    I remain your humble servant,
    Mr B.

  • CJr Says:

    Mr B. or anyone else,
    Do you know where Vince lives? We could get out our pitchforks and torches, mob up, and go after him and BB. It’s been so long I’ve forgotten what we’re so irate about but I always enjoy a good mob action anyway.
    -Chuck

  • wayne Says:

    See, ain’t it good we got our guns..

    can’t be a mob without them:)

    Wacky Wayne.. and I know where they both live.. ha ha ha!!

  • twotalon Says:

    All you guys……
    Let’s give Vince a break here.

    Part one was already very long, in depth, and well thought out.

    If he gave us the whole works all at one time it would be as long as a college thesis and put everyone to sleep.

    Starting this topic on a friday is the only fault I can see, and is probably TOM’S fault.

    Now we can only hope that the rifles that Vince has chosen do have a good bore size for the old pellets.

    twotalon

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B. or Others

    Does anyone wipe the exterior of their talonss down after use? If so what do you all recommend.

    lubricator

  • twotalon Says:

    lubricator….
    I have used air tool oil on nearly every gun to prevent rust, but it is not necessary on AF rifles.
    If it gets smudged up too much I squirt a little windex on a paper towl and wipe it down. Works ok with me, and does not attract dirt as bad as oil does.

    twotalon

  • CJr Says:

    Hah!
    Twotalon ist trying to use logic against mob mentality! Vee vill show heem. To der castle! Der ist a monster up der! Ve must save our women and children! Vell, veel save de pretty ones und let the ugly ones take care of de children!

  • CJr Says:

    BB,

    I think I’m ready with my question, now.

    I have researched the Pyramydair site only because I may put this scope on an airgun sometime and would be concerned about durability of a firearm scope.

    I already have a BSA 4-16×40 mounted on my 10/22 and it almost does the job.

    Here are the scopes that I have found to fit all my criteria: greater than 16x; side wheel parallax; 10yd focus; illuminated mil-dot(not required but they all have it)

    CenterPoint Power Class 8-32x56AO $259.99

    Hawke Sport Optics Eclipse 6-24x50AO $259.00

    Leapers Accushot 6-24×56 SWAT $199.95

    Leapers Accushot 8-32x56AO SWAT $249.95

    I’m sure these are all fine scopes or Pyramyd wouldn’t sell them.
    But, quality wise, is there one that you think is superior over the others? Are you aware (without doing any research of your own, it’s the weekend and you should rest) of any other scopes I should consider in this price range.

    -Chuck

  • Anonymous Says:

    GUYS
    I’ve got an address on Vince.
    Sooo how much is it worth to you folks,this is an AG site afterall.
    ALL bribes will be considered.

    Vince just kidding,well sorta:)we know you’ve got lead slingers too!
    seriously,nice setup for the weekend.
    B the way,don’t know what you had to go through with the pivot on the 490
    but it turned out nice,very smooth.

  • Mr B. Says:

    Guys,

    I know, we have an unnamed but very reliable inside source, that Vince is 100% blameless for the way his article was published. No marching on his home, place of work, etc. If you want to know more….follow the money.

    Mr B.

  • CJr Says:

    mob listens to Mr.B…
    mumble..murmur…grumble…
    mob begins to lose its momentum…
    finally reason prevails…
    mob disperses…
    mob returns to their small cottages in the countryside…
    Vince and BB breath a sigh of relief…
    National Guard steps down…
    Pretty women head for the castle…

  • JC Says:

    Vince,

    Re the solder Slavia job – that’s how we learn – by making mistakes. I learned about rifling by filing down my front sight on my Benjamin pump bb repeater; I tried everything, but the more I pumped, the wilder it got (no rifling, it was throwing knuckle balls!).

    Anyhow, its tough to go back. I used to shoot Christmas tree bulbs at 50 yards with a Remington model 61 .22 with a Weaver 4x scope – now a 6x scope is no good for anything past 30 yards??? I note that BB shoots a .45. When we were out shooting on the 50 yard range, my Uncle brought out an Air Force issue .45 pistol. Couldn’t hit a 55 gallon drum with that baby – a close range weapon! Anyhow, I still have the Remington, but I don’t think I’ll be shooting it soon to see how bad I’ve become/really was – my memory says I hit the bulbs every time at 50 yards…..

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Lubricator,

    When I worked at AirForce I used to clean the guns with soapy water followed by a damp rag wipe and then dry. The anodizing doesn’t need much to keep it clean.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    CJr,

    I own both Leapers scopes and am currently testing the Marauder with the CerterPoint, which is identical to the Leapers.

    The Hawke scope is the one I’ve never seen, but the other examples of theirs I have seen were superior. They were even sharper than the Leapers of the same power.

    Your choice is between the 8-32 and the Hawke.

    B.B.

  • CJr Says:

    BB,
    The next time you test your Marauder, outside on a clear day, would you check your Centerpoint and zoom it out to 32x to see the quality of the image? Can you see a .22 on white at 50 and/or 100yds?
    -Chuck

  • Anonymous Says:

    Thanks Twotalon/B.B. for the info on keeping a talon clean

    lubricator

  • Vince Says:

    CJr – reason? REASON??? What, did all youse guys suddenly turn into a bunch of wussies???

    My lil’ girl gots herself a Red Ryder for this past Christmas… so c’mon over, all you mobbers and rioters… she’ll shoot your eyes out!!!

    JT, the pivot on the 490 was originally pretty bad. Very loose side-to-side, and the friction surfaces were very rough. Tightening the pivot bolt didn’t help, the forks were too far apart. I had to squeeze them together in a vise and THEN tighten the bolt. Originally it was very snug, but the rough surfaces seem to have worn in to each other pretty quickly – even with moly! I could have smoothed up the surfaces beforehand, but letting them wear in ‘naturally’ might result in a better fit between parts.

  • CJr Says:

    Hah! The monster in the castle acts awfully brave with a lil’ sharpshooter behind him! But then sharpshooters is something that even mobs can understand.

  • wayne Says:

    Chuck,

    I second B.B.s’ choices of course..

    I have both the Center Point and Leapers 8-32x56AO.. probably have had 6 or 8 by now.. some sold on rifles.. some still on field target rifles. I still haven’t moved up with the one on my US FT.. because it’s does so well on it.. (but that might change soon.. I might have a good used one to sell soon)

    Field Target report..

    Rick Knowles is a super nice, great guy!!

    He helped us all learn about all the rifles I’ve bought.. (and Rick thinks I did pretty well).. Rick’s presence brought some new members out to try a new thing, and we talked him into coming back tomorrow for a contest, (since our best shooters Nate and Josh can’t make it till then) and since we took so much of Ricks’ time learning about the basics today..

    I tried out the Daystate CR97 outdoors for the first time, and it/I did well.. I’m not a “Clicker” yet.. still a “holdover piggy” as B.B. would call me.. but I’ve figured out the number of dots to “holdover”.. when I’m on at 25 yards.. I’m holding over 6 dots at 10 yards.. and 3 dots at 50 yards, with the 12 foot lb. US FT..

    The Daystate is shooting at 16 foot lbs. or so and I only have to hold over 2 dots at 50 yards.. and the wind has a lot less effect on the 50 yard shots..

    Rick was shooting his 12 foot lbs Air Arms EV2 with a 50x Nikko scope.. he is a “Clicker” for sure.. and after his class today, I finally get it!! (I’m going for a $800 scope setup like his soon, and be a “clicker” before ya know it)..

    Rick has matching enlarged wheel dials on the up and down turret and the side focus enlarged side wheel.. so he can set his “zero” as per the humidity.. (it can be like 5 clicks difference between Ashland OR. and Tacoma Wa.)!!! and then the number of clicks between 25 and 50 are set.. very cool and easier to see in real life..

    Talk about science in shooting… Rick knows it!! He also has a wind flag hanging off the left side of his barrel and sets up a portable one at 25 yards, so he can see the swirling wind between him and 25 yards.. (and it was today!!).. He also keeps his left eye open.. so he can see the wind flag down stream at the same time!!)..

    He was practicing on some of the targets after “getting on zero” with a portable paper target stand he set up) and had to pull the the reset string too often!! .. I think we will get really waxed tomorrow!!

    A bright note..

    Rick tested on a 2″ shoot n see on the 52 yard back stop fence.. adjusting for the changing directions and speed of the wind, he got 8 on the dot without going off, and finally one real close to the red dot center..
    So, I picked up the challenge with the Daystate and got 8 on the next dot too.. and 2 touching the red dot center!.. but it’s the “arch/dot game” in between that always gets me.. so I’ll probably get killed tomorrow too..

    sorry if there are lots of typos and mistakes.. I have to rush off to get the take out dinner!!

    Wacky Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • Anonymous Says:

    JUST A REMINDER
    I was browsing the Yellow Fri.night
    and saw a post where a guy had made some target T’s,for holding paint balls,golf balls etc.So I decided I wanted to do some night time practice with the new 490.I tossed a tennis ball and golf ball out in the yard and grabbed my spotlight.First shot on the tennis ball came back and caught in the leg of my sweats,THEN I remembered my shooting glasses.Went back out and about the 3rd shot on the golf ball it returned fire with enough authority to bury the pellet in the porch post beside my head.From now on I’ll stick to softer targets for my low powered plinkers.I’m sure everyone knows but please shoot safe and wear your safety glasses!
    Just a friendly reminder for those as forgetful as me :)

    JTinAL

  • Mr B. Says:

    JTinAL,

    Thank you for that reminder. We’ve all got our story, but familiarity breeds contempt, some times.

    Mr B.

  • CJr Says:

    JT,
    One of my grand kids was having fun shooting his IZH-61 at a little 2″ plastic cow he set on top of a cardboard box at 10yds. One of his shots hit the cow and ricocheted right back and hit him on the shoulder. It hit hard enough to sting for a couple minutes. It was one of those grandpa “I told you so moments” where my safety emphasis paid off. It really drove home the necessity for wearing safety glasses at all times while at the range, even when they’re not shooting.

  • CJr Says:

    Wayne,
    Since you’ve had so many of those scopes it must mean they’re pretty good. I’ll ask you what I asked BB about clarity at 32x and if you can see a .22 hole on a white target at 50 and 100 yds.

    Do you have a preference of one over the other? Also, do you have a Leapers parallax wheel and does it also fit on the Centerpoint since they’re supposed to be identical?

    -Chuck

  • Rob Says:

    Does anyone know if the Benjamin superstreak will shoot super sonic in .22 caliber (I don’t want the advertised result).

  • wayne Says:

    Chuck,

    Yes I think I remember seeing holes as small as .177 at fifty yards.. matter of fact just today.. lots of them!! at 52yards.. and at 75 yards with the AAs410.. so yes they be a good scope for the money.. and they are just the same pretty much and the side wheel will work..

    go for it!! I think you get extras with the leapers for a little less… check it out more closely..

    Wayne

  • wayne Says:

    Tom,

    Nice buy on the Walther LGV Olympia…

    Wayne

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Wayne,

    That rifle will be another blog in the future. Even the story of its acquisition is interesting.

    How could I not get it at that price? It’s worth at least $200 more.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    CJr,

    It’s easy to see .177 pellet holes at 50 yards through the 8-32 Leapers if they are on white paper. It’s on;y when they are in the black that they become a problem. If the sun is behind you and fairly bright you can see the holes in black at 50. But if it’s overcast, they are next to invisible.

    B.B.

  • john from jersey Says:

    BB, what would I need to fill a disco from a hill pump? You say the disco pump is pretty sturdy, and I believe you, but will a hill pump be better (more reliable, moisture filter etc.?). As Always, thanks a lot

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Jersey John,

    Although I do think the Hill pump is very robust and reliable, it provides no advantage over the Benjamin pump, which is identical to the AirForce pump. That pump is rated to 3,600 psi with no cooling stops. The Hill is rated to 3,300 psi and needs cooling stops.

    But here is the deal–the Discovery is only being filled to 2,000 psi max, and most owners are filling to a little less. So this discussion about which pump is more robust is meaningless. The Discovery is not stressing the pump in the slightest. It’s like asking how reliable would a marathon runner be if you asked him to walk a mile.

    To connect the Hill pump to the Discovery you must end the pump hose with a female Foster quick-disconnect coupling.

    The Hill pump draws air through a dessicant filter that removes a little water from the air on its way through.; That IS NOT the way to remove moisture from compressed air. Unless it is removed on the compression side, which ALL pumps do through condensation, then the amount of moisture removed is minor. When you bleed the pump with the bleed screw you blast the collected moisture out. That’s how all pumps work–even the Hill.

    B.B.

  • CJr Says:

    Wayne/BB,
    Two comments I saw on Pyramyd about the Leapers 8-32:
    “Good clear/bright optics up to about 18x then deteriorates pretty fast after that…”
    “Optics are not the greatest, it looks pretty good until you get above 20x then it gets a bit mushy.”

    If they are correct then is this also true with the Centerpoint?

    What are these people talking about? Are they saying they can’t focus to infinity or are they saying the light gets too dim to see clearly?

    -Chuck

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Chuck,

    These guys may have scope with problems. The CenterPoint and the Leapers are identical, so anything said about one applies to the other.

    I have mine mounted on my USFT, because it is sharper at 32 X than my Tasco Custom Shop scope is at 30X.

    B.B.

  • CJr Says:

    BB,
    That’s good to hear.

    In your SGN article you called the Centerpoint you evaluated the Godzilla. Is that actually the name of the one you tested or was that a euphemism for its size.

  • Mr B. Says:

    Afternoon B.B.,

    I am on my third Benjamin pump. Crosman replaced the first two under warrenty without any problems, except for the time I was without a source of HPA. (CO2 options kept my sanity.)
    No, per your past advice, I don’t wipe off the lubricant visible on the pump shaft, the pump is also used for a Talon SS to a 2800 psi fill. 40 years worth of smoking has taken a toll on my lungs, quit 43/4 years ago, but for sure I don’t heat the pump up. I call it my cardovascular workout.

    My question is what am I doing wrong or has it been the luck of the draw? Pump number three doesn’t have the collar around the bottom of the shaft for the air intake. Instead it has been relocated to the base of the pump. Thank you for your advice on this issue.

    Mr B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    CJr,

    It was what you said. I just can’t spell euphemism.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Mr. B.,

    The Crosman pump was recently redesigned for greater reliability.

    From what you say the only thing I can think of it you may be pumping too fast. Are you?

    The upstroke should take a full second, then pause at the top for a second, then down and pause at the stop for a second.

    Have you watched me use the pump? See this video:

    http://www.pyramydair.com/site/articles/hand-pump/

    B.B.

  • jon neet Says:

    As for the pellet test- I myself expect the Gamo Match wadcutters to win. These pellets shoot very well in both of my air rifles including my Crosman 1077 “combo” (with 4×32 Centerpoint scope) and my Beeman 1024 break down rifle.My best group to date was with the Beeman at 39 feet/13 yards from a table with a portable bench rest and a Winchester 3×9 scope with five pellets in a center to center group of .135″ measured with calipers.Wish I could do that at will.But the Gamo Match wadcutters are good enough that I could buy only those pellets and be happy.But I have this illness that makes me experiment, whether with handloads in powder guns, or pellets in my airguns-as in “…so many pellets to try…”.
    And B.B., I read your review at PA on the Hammerli 490 Express rifle.It must be a fine one for you to write so highly of it.Sounds like that would have been perfect for me if I hadn’t bought my Beeman 1024.
    I bought my Crosman 1077 in the dead of the cold winter and have been eagerly awaiting the warmer weather when I’m hoping to get even better groups from that gun.I did get some good groups in the cold, but it was difficult.

    Jon

  • CJr Says:

    Rabbitt,
    I applied Vince Lombardi’s “second effort” philosophy and found two stashes of pugs today, one at Menards and one at Lowes. I know now what to look for – clerks are no help. I went into the big city (the only city in the US that has the only enemy combatant on US soil. We have him on trial right now in my town) to see if Home Depot had restocked since I bought them out last week. They hadn’t, so I figured since I was there I might as well check the others. They did. I can now enlarge my target area.
    -Chuck

  • John from jersey Says:

    Ordered some pellets for my disco that is en route. Anyone know where I can get the 14gr JSB jumbo expresses? I ordered the 16gr jumbos, hopefully they shoot.

    As well as an air gun “nub” I’m a pay pal one. If I have a ballance in my pay pal account, and charge something to pay pal, will it take the money from my account, or charge my card on file?
    Thanks

  • Mr B. Says:

    Hi B.B.,

    Yes, I pause at the top and bottom of each stroke. I don’t think I’m pumping too fast.

    One point in my question, is to let everyone know how good Crosman has been.

    Mr B.

  • .22 multi-shot Says:

    John from Jersey,

    The page that you get before approving the PayPal payment will indicate where the funds are coming from. The default is from your PayPal account if there is money there.

    .22 multi-shot

  • John Says:

    Ok, thanks multi-shot

  • Dr. G. Says:

    CJr,

    For what it’s worth, I have many Leapers scopes, and prefer the 6-24 vs. 8-32 because the picture gets dark and blurred above 26x.

    - Dr G.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Thanks mo, don’t know how I missed them

  • Bob from Oz Says:

    G’day BB,

    With all this nostalgia going on I must be in the right forum to ask the following question!
    Has anyone dismantled a Daisy 111B Lever Action BB made in Arizona by Reynolds? The stock and forend are plastic, circa 50s?
    The barrel has a blockage and it appears a complete dismantle is necessary. Any tips/diagrams would be highly appreciated. All screws etc have been butchered but are now loose.

    Cheers Bob

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Bob,

    If it was made in Arizona it’s not a Daisy. It may be a close copy of a 111B. You say the gun was made by Reynolds? This is a gun I have never heard of.

    The shot tube should be removable, if it’s close to a 111B. Doesn’t it screw out?

    Disassembly would be the same as for any Daisy BB gun. It takes a holding jig, unless you can grow arms. The mainspring and piston are an assembly and the spring must be compressed to remove the spring anchor, which is a sheet steel tab that sticks out the top of the gun. Then the entire assembly can be easily removed out the front of the gun.

    B.B.

  • JC Says:

    Mr. B said: Pump number three doesn’t have the collar around the bottom of the shaft for the air intake. Instead it has been relocated to the base of the pump.

    That’s funny, I thought I had the latest with a colar abone the finned assembly/around the base of the shaft. My earlier one had the intake in the base assembly; it failed with a stuck valve and would not intake air. Are there 3 versions?

    JC

  • lee pearl Says:

    Great blog entry!

  • Anonymous Says:

    BB, are there any good "take down" air rifles, usable for hunting rabbit/squirrel/small birds? I live in a pretty gun-sensitive area and am looking for something i can take in the woods inside my pack as to not freak out fellow visitors. Are there any air pistols that would do the job?

    Thank you much,

    JV

  • kevin Says:

    take down air rifle/pistol,

    Not sure about the size of your pack or weather conditions but many CO2 custom builds using the crosman Mark I or II or 2200 series are built into hunting pistols and carbines. Some with custom folding stocks.

    The air arms TDR (Take Down Rifle) also comes to mind. The FX Ranchero pistol that has an option of a carbine stock is a good rabbit/squirrel gun.

  • Mr B. Says:

    Take down air rifles,

    Let me add my two cents worth and suggest a 1377 with sholder stock. You can also scope it w/o any problems. There's also alot of mods out there for it. Alot of gun for not much money.

    Bruce

  • Doc Says:

    I'm also a big fan of take down rifles.
    Since I don't hunt I'm not sure it's appropriate for that but the Crosman 2289 "backpacker" is one of my favorite airguns.
    The name pretty much says it all huh.
    I don't know if it's still available in the US but it can be found for under 100$ in Canada and since it's part of the 22XX series from Crosman it's highly and easily customisable to best suit your needs.

    If you're patient and have more funds you can also wait for the Benjamin Marauder PCP pistol coming out in a few weeks but you better hurry because I think they're gonna sellout pretty fast.

    JF

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    JV,

    Benjamin made a 392 pump that was a carbine that might work for you. Otherwise, one of the Backpacker series of Crosman 1377 pistols with a detachable shoulder stock would be your best bet.

    B.B.

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