The 2009 SHOT Show report – Part 2

by B.B. Pelletier

Part 1

I remained at SHOT two more days, so one report just isn’t enough.

Daisy
I already reported on Daisy, but I didn’t touch on their 1888 commemorative gun. They’ve recreated the wire-stocked first model BB gun they made back in the 1880s, when they were still the Plymouth Iron Windmill company. These fully functioning BB guns will be produced in one lot of 1,000 guns–making them as rare as the originals. An original Iron Windmill gun brings $10,000 and up today.


First Daisy BB gun is reproduced in this limited edition replica.

To reserve one for $300, you have to join the Friends of the Daisy Museum and reserve a gun. This will be an instant collectible when it’s issued.

Umarex USA
I shudder to report on the Umarex booth because they have so many brands it would make a report in itself. But I shall make an attempt. They have a new Makarov CO2 pistol, called the PM, that’s a 16-shot BB gun. I’ll test it as soon as possible, but the velocity is reported to be 380 f.p.s., so there are probably lots of shots per cartridge.


New Makarov is a looker.

They also have a new HK P30 BB pistol and a USP pistol that I’ll try for you. Both are highly realistic and both shoot in the 360 f.p.s. range. The P30 holds 15 rounds, while the USP has 22.


HK P30 pistol is very realistic.

Walther
The Walther SG9000 is a tactical BB shotgun that shoots single shots and 3-round bursts. This one uses an 88-gram cartridge. It resembles an airsoft gun, but this one shoots steel BBs. Loaded with tactical mounts for accessories and no buttstock–just a rear pistol grip.

Ruger
Ruger added the new Blackhawk rifle, an Air Hawk in a black synthetic stock. Shades of the RWS 34 Panther!

Hammerli
The Hammerli Pneuma is a new single-shot PCP rifle that delivers over 1,000 f.p.s. in .22 and 1,200 f.p.s. in .177. The styling is modern (black and tactical), and I got the impression that it might compete on price. As soon as I can, I’ll test one for you.


New Hammerli is a powerful PCP sporter.

Browning
Browning’s model 800 pistol is a breakbarrel single-shot that offers smashing power (up to 700 f.p.s. is what the ad says). It has an anti-recoil system, so it’s either recoilless or has less recoil. I hope to test it soon.


Browning 800 is a powerful new springer pistol.

RWS
RWS has a new breakbarrel pistol as well–the LP8 Magnum. It’s another smasher that comes in both both .177 AND .22 (hurrah!). Like the Browning, it’s rated to 700 f.p.s. in .177, so it’s not slow by any means.


RWS will bring out another screamer called the LP8.

Also, the RWS droop-compensation sight base was shown. While it has been out for a while now, I have held off reporting because there were some design issues. I was told they have been resolved, so there’s another log for the fire!

All things considered, Umarex USA wore me out! But there was more show to see.

Leapers had a ton of exciting new products, including a host of new scopes, tactical flashlights, green lasers and M4 platform airsoft guns with upgrades. I saw a pistol scope they say we’ll see the middle of this coming year! And they have a new type of scope knob that’s quickly lockable and resettable. There’s a lot to test.


Leapers president, David Ding, shows me his new lineup.

They’re now selling a green laser for under $100! They sold for over $300 a few years back. Green lasers are bright enough to be see in the daytime at long distances and have been the traditional lasers of law enforcement. I’ll put it to the test for you.

Their tactical flashlights are a real bargain price. The ones I saw will force compliance at night, giving you time to run or to swing a baseball bat. Anytime you can do that for less than $100, it’s worth exploring. I’ll try to convince Pyramyd Air to carry them, because I think they’ll make a wonderful addition to a carry gun.

Russian PCPs
You know those Russian PCPs that everybody has seen on the internet? Well, they were there, and they appear very well made. But they’re not ready for production yet. It seems the company is having difficulty finding shops who can hold their tolerances in manufacturing quantities, which is the same problem we find everywhere. When they do become available, though, they’ll be something to see! They had several models, as well as very nice cutaways to show the inner workings. I hope to see them again next year.


Russian PCPs appear well-made and attractive, but they’re not ready for production.

Air Arms
Air Arms had a new EV2 stock on display, and I wanted you to see it. Both the buttplate and cheekpiece are mounted on a ball swivel so they can be positioned anywhere and locked down. Great idea. Wish’d thought of it.


EV2, which won the world FT championship, has a new stock.


Cheekpiece and buttplate are mounted on a ball swivel.

The show was so much larger than what I have shown you here. I’m sure there were new airguns there I didn’t see. I estimate that I saw only a third of the show, so that’s a safe bet. The Airgun Breakfast was a wonderful start and the show blossomed before us with the talk of the new television program. I was running too fast between appointments to take it all in. This year is going to be a landmark for airguns.

81 thoughts on “The 2009 SHOT Show report – Part 2




  1. SavageSam,

    New Crosman Marauder

    BB has said several times that he is in line to get one very quickly. As soon as he gets it, he will let us know. Report shortly after that no doubt.

    I know we’re all about to have a hygiene event, but we’re just going to have to be a little more patient. It seems that the guns won’t be sold until May. BB isn’t one to make up rumors.

    Herb


  2. B.B. ,
    Any word on the new Leapers RWS base with no droop compensation built in ? I bought the old style but I had no droop issues and it over-compensated for my Panther . Would really like to know because I want to setup scope with weaver style rings and wondering if you knew possible dates for pyramyd stocking them.
    Thank you in advance !!


  3. “The Walther SG9000 is a tactical BB shotgun that shoots single shots and 3-round bursts”
    I’m confused, I’m guessing it just looks like a shotgun?

    The Makarov pistol looks very interesting.


  4. Volvo,

    I have to admit that I am confused by this gun also. Yes, it looks like a tactical shotgun with no butt. Why they made it a BB gun instead of an airsoft gun I don’t know, but it seems that it would be troublesome to aim. It’s more of a fire from the hip gun.

    The Makarov looks as good in person as it does in the pictures. I’ll test it as soon as they get me one.

    B.B.


  5. David,

    I did take some pictures of the new base, but you can’t tell much from them. It just sits flush with the base on the spring tube.

    As soon as they get the mount in I’ll get one to test. No idea of when, but since the Officials at Umarex made a point of showing it to me, I assume it will be here shortly.

    B.B.


  6. The Crosman Marauder has me very interested, it sure does look like an S410. Can’t wait to read your report on that one. Do you know when gamo plans to launch the SOCOM? That one also had my interest.


  7. Everyone,

    Wow there’s alot of new stuff I’m interested in knowing more about. The green laser, the russian rifles (really like the stock on that prototype) and the new BSA pcp. A ball swivel that allows infinite adjustments. Brilliant. Been on my tripod for years and even have rod holders mounted on my boat with ball swivels. Never even thought about using that technology on an airgun for stock adjustments. I’ll never be an inventor.

    The new Makarov looks just like my browning .380. It has to be a copy of a BDA.

    I need some help. I’ve googled till I’m black and blue. Anyone have a source for Wegu adjustable butt pads? If not does anyone have a recommendation of an adjustable butt pad?

    kevin



  8. Hi BB,

    I’m always intrigued by the new stuff, especially the pistols that claim to get around 700 fps. The RWS 5G sounded like a great pistol – even though it didn’t perform as advertised. But these new pistols look strangely like the Webley Typhoon… Semi-recoilless is a bad word for me that brings up bad memories of a very poorly designed pistol. The Typhoon was a Hatsan and I get the feeling that these two offerings are as well… Now a modernized version of the 5G in .22 sounds very appealing, especially if it comes with a mounting rail.. but the ones you showed looked like Webley clones.. I’m getting depressed already and the holidays are over. Still, looks like an amazing show. Did Baikal have their PCP Repeater on display?


  9. Sorry BB,

    I saw that the photos were were mislabeled. The RWS does have a scope rail and a funky trigger.. so I’m getting more interested. But the “Browning” IS a Typhoon. I’d save yourself the misery of testing it… I’ve got to get to one of these shows…



  10. B.B.,
    Is the SHOT show open to the public or just vendors?

    If just vendors, what are the minimum requirements to be a vendor?

    Can one just walk in or are reservations required?

    There may be a road trip in my future.

    -Chuck



  11. Chuck,

    You have to have industry credentials to get into SHOT, though they may through the last day open to the public to boost the attendance numbers.

    You can register at the show or go to the NSSF SHOT Show page and register there.

    The NRA Annual Meetings, which will be held in Phoenix this year is a public show. It’s about one-fifth the size of SHOT, but most of the same vendors are there. The booths are much smaller.

    B.B.



  12. B.B.,

    Never mind my last question. I should learn to research before asking. For those of you who, like me, shoot first and ask later here is the official statement:

    “Attendee Registration

    SHOT IS FOR THE TRADE ONLY AND IS NOT OPEN TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC.

    Register Now for the 2009 SHOT Show.

    NO Photography or Videotaping (Except by those wearing valid SHOT Show Press Badges).

    NO Solicitation.

    SHOT Show Badges shall NOT be reproduced, transferred or resold.

    Attendance is restricted to trade members only. Children under age 16 (including infants) prohibited.

    For attendee and exhibitor safety, NO personal firearms and/or ammunition allowed. SHOT Show management shall have sole discretion over admission at all times and shall strictly enforce attendance rules. Attendees agree to act appropriately and abide by all attendance rules, which may be updated at any time. Violators risk immediate confiscation of their Show badges without refund and removal from the premises. Violators will not be allowed re-entry. SHOT Show badges and other show credentials are the property of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, Inc. (“NSSF”) and may be revoked by show management at any time for any reason.”

    -Chuck


  13. Good Morning B.B. & All

    I'm wondering if the Power hungry public is driving this 1,200fps craze… or is it the designers..
    Don't they test for accuracy… am I one of the few people who sees a pellet sideways on the target when it goes over 1,000fps? 20 foot pounds is not just to save the field targets, it's also about the highest speed you can accurately shoot a pellet.. isn't it, B.B.?

    I guess they figure they only need to sell a rifle once to a bunch of people to make some money.. who cares if they don't become a long time winner.. just make the money and run.. you can always have something newer and faster next year..

    What ever happened to making something that works for the user, and then making improvements on it over time.. like the 1968 144 Volvo, which they just kept improving for 30 years..

    Seems like a marketing opportunity missed to me…

    "bawless" … now that's a fitting word verification

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  14. Dr. G,
    Today I plan to practice your muscle relaxation technique. It’ll be interesting to see how effectively I can talk to my body and how receptive it is to my commands.

    I suspect this will help with the artillery hold, also. I’m beginning to see that holding lightly also means relaxing all muscles. I believe this is what Mr. B was alluding to the other day, also, by looking away and then looking back to see if I was still on target.

    -Chuck


  15. Don’t you need both mass and velocity to take down a target at range x? So, the more mass and/or velocity the larger the target you can take down or the greater the range to the target? If so, then we are looking to take down the largest target at the longest range with the cheapest projectile and the least noise. Is accuracy for large targets as critical as it is in competition shooting? And we have read that all we need to do is reach an fps that outruns sound to get the accuracy back. Are we a research lab for this technology for the military?
    -Chuck


  16. Wayne & Chuck,

    BB has answered pellet accuracy & velocity many times.

    See:
    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2005/03/why-cant-i-go-supersonic.html

    http://pyramydair.com/site/articles/velocity/

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/10/calibers-and-range-part-2.html

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/08/bullets-and-pellets-what-gives.html

    I've experimented a lot lately with this to discover what every seasoned shooter already knows.

    RULE #1 – You can't kill'em if you don't hit'em.

    RULE #2 – Pellets (not big bore bullets mind you) don't have enough kinetic energy to "vaporize" a critter. So accuracy is needed to place a lethal shot.

    The gist is that you need to keep a pellet subsonic ( <900 fps) for accuracy. Just look at various rifles using same power plant that come in 0.177 and 0.22. The kinetic energy is 1/2*mass*velocity^2, so a slower heavier 0.22 pellet has more "stopping power" than the faster 0.177. The 0.177 also loses KE faster, so downrange it has even less clout.

    Fortunately most squirrels aren't yet wearing body armor, or running through trees in armored tanks. So we don't need depleted uranium rounds to bring them down. Thus we are not a testing ground for US military. (But I wouldn't object if army put some of its scientists to work designing a better transfer port!)

    Herb




  17. RE: Power hungry public

    Absolutely. “Sex” sells.

    Go look at you car’s speedometer. You don’t think that your car could really go that fast do you? Well maybe if you drive you car off the Royal Gorge Bridge in Colorado!!

    I think the truth is that the companies have to produce a mix of products which are appealing to general public and to shooters to have a good cash flow. That is why Gamo markets their guns so heavily with velocities listed for PBA ammo. It is hard to find someone in a box store now that knows flip about pellet guns. That is why this resource is so meaningful to me.

    Herb

    PS – BB, please accept a thank you from all of us again!



  18. I was thinking that the new Crosman Challenger sounded more like a FT rifle than a 10 meter one, but it can’t match the EV2. When are we going to see one, Wayne….

    The airgun literature makes for much more interesting reading than firearms; the technology is much more dynamic.

    Matt61




  19. Next year, why can’t we all go to the SHOT Show as Wayne’s guests?

    I finally got to shoot The G1 with the GRT-III. It was better than the stock trigger. Given the gun’s limitations (and mine) it would be better used in a better gun. I guess I’ll have to start looking for a Whisper or a Super Streak or one of the many other guns that it works in.


  20. Herb,
    I agree with your #1 & #2 Rules but I think we're beyond squirrels now. I think we can all agree we already have enough firepower on the market, and more, to take out the smaller pesky critters. Were beginning to deal with the big stuff now. Animals that have larger kill areas. 1/8" accuracy is not as critical with them is it?

    On past posts wasn't it pointed out that, hypothetically anyway, we only need to go above 1300fps to get past the accuracy issue with sound disturbance? Maybe we all didn't agree with that finding.

    OK, maybe military research was a bit over the top but how about research for the hunting market. Airguns are becoming more of an interest to hunters of larger wild game. I keep hearing more and more about how airguns aren't toys anymore, they're for grownups, now. Sounds like the trend is to make them grow up even more.

    I do admit that when I made my first purchase of an airgun I was impressed with the 1,200fps claim. I knew absolutely nothing about airguns then except they shot pellets. Should I buy a 1,000 fps or go for the 1,200? LOL! I don't know much more about airguns now, but now I'm not so concerned about fps except for what will the government of Illinois let me have.

    -Chuck


  21. Randy-in-VA,
    Terrific idea! How can we suck up to Wayne without him knowing why?

    BTW, I looked at the event calendar for the NRA Annual meeting & show in Phoenix in May and they have an open AIRGUN range from 9am-6pm, EVERYDAY!!!! Now I need to stop and wipe the drool off my keyboard.

    I'll temper that by informing you that they charge $1.00 for 5 shots. But, hey, I would still test fire 100 guns. I spent a lot more than that at the Knob Creek, Kentucky Machine Gun Shoot to shoot a lot less rounds from only 5 different machine guns.

    -Chuck


  22. Derrick,

    You’re the guy I’ve been looking for.

    Thanks for the link to the morgan adjustable butt pad.

    Have you had experience with the Wegu and Morgan? The picture of the morgan in the link you provided makes the morgan butt pad appear to protrude beyond the diameter of the stock? Is the morgan “oversized” for most stocks or can it be made to be flush?

    Thanks again for your input.

    kevin


  23. RE: We only need to go above 1300fps to get past the accuracy issue with sound disturbance?

    Chuck,

    Absolutely talking through my hat based on what I’ve read. I think the pertinent followup question is “Are we talking about a diablo pellet or a bullet?”

    I think a diablo pellet has too much wind resistance to do much good at supersonic velocities. The limited range of a diablo pellet is the whole point. I feel comfortable shooting my pellets guns in the city since they have such limited range. I wouldn’t dare shoot a bullet because it would just go too far.

    I’ve been in dove fields and had shot drop on me. But if I shot a 20 gauge shotgun (upwards!!!) in the city at squirrels, I’d have the swat team barreling for my house. Americans are nutty when analyzing risks. How many people have been killed by shot “raining” on them in a dove field? How many are killed every year in car accidents? Folks get into cars all the time without thinking about risk. Anyone in a city that hears falling shot would be calling 911. The absolute truth is that the police would create more of risk speeding to the “emergency” than my shooting upwards with a 20 gauge shotgun.

    Yes, you can kill a critter bigger than a squirrel with a PCP and a diablo pellet. But again, I invoke Rule #2. You have to hit the critter in a vital spot.

    I used shotguns as a kid to hunt. I was aiming at the whole bird, not picking a spot on the bird which I wanted to hit. It was and wasn’t sort of a surprise that you have to pick a spot with a rifle.

    Air guns are still perceived as toys for the most part. You can buy an air pistol with no background check and so on. It is still considered an weapon if used in a crime. But scant regulations to get one. Some of the “pistols” BB showed above look more like sawed off rifles than pistols.

    As soon as the ink was dry on the second amendment we got more regulations and “clarifications.” So more regulations not less is the trend. The quest for power seems to be driving air guns towards “real” guns. Corresponding regulatory requirements will follow.

    I have my own predigests. As a kid I hunted quail and dove. Never though much of “hunters” that went to private hunting ranches to hunt pen raised quail. You almost had to kick them to get them to fly, and they flew slow. The more limited range of even a big bore pellet gun however means that it is more like bow and arrow hunting. So if you’re on a private hunting ranch, you’re going to have to do some stalking to get close enough to kill a large animal. So it is more like “real” hunting than target shooting. (Assuming this isn’t a petting farm where animals come to eat out of your hand.)

    Herb




  24. B.B. or anyone else:
    Great articles sir!! But why hasn’t RWS entered the PCP realm of rifles?? Most “excellent” companies carries both spring and PCP… but why hasn’t RWS???
    Cheers,
    Jony


  25. Herb & Chuck,

    Observation incorporating my limited ability for recollection

    I think I remember Jane (the Rocket Scientist) initiating this discussion about pellet velocities reaching at least 1,300 fps to stabalize, restabalize?

    Her analysis and justification made sense to me (the high school drop out and epitomy of uninitiated in the field of science). Her motivation in "being a buyer of this 1,300 fps airgun" wasn't so much about hunting as it was about accuracy. Wonder if the noise of this 1,300 fps gun could be quieted with the similar technology currently being used in airguns with similar power (1,300 fps)?

    I also believe the concern for additional regulations to airguns is real. We need to stick together and be very vocal when the issue rears its' head.

    kevin



  26. I don’t feel the issue is whether there should or should not be such a concentration on the magnum airguns…but that it’s more a case of the manufacturers making it a either/or situation.
    It’s that there are very few real nice air-rifles that aren’t magnum. I don’t think I’m in the minority (and I think b.b. agrees) in that what I want is an accurate gun, out to 30 to 50 yards that is easy to shoot all day long and is well made.
    I’m not in the market to kill anything…and if I was my .223 would outshoot anything in the air-rifle realm.
    But at the same time I like quality stuff and I want my airguns to have the same quality as my Remington 700CDL.
    But apart from the R7, HW30 and the Slavias, most airguns in the 500fps range are made by the likes of Marksman and are pretty damn crappy.
    And I think there are lots like me.
    CowBoyStar Dad


  27. RE: Jane & pellet (!?!) velocities reaching at least 1,300 fps to stabalize, restabalize?

    She wanted to whack some large critters at a distance. So she wanted a big, fast and accurate shot.

    Again, I don't think a diablo pellet would be good (accuracy & range) at that speed. It would quickly slow. In order for a supersonic round to be accurate, it needs to start and finish well above the speed of sound.

    If you shooting a bullet, sure. Does it take much imagination to predict shrouded PCPs shooting bullets at 2000 fps?

    Assume you're shooting a pellet at 900 fps, the speed of sound is 1200 fps, and a range of 50 yards. The pellet takes 0.167 seconds to reach critter, and the sound gets there in 0.125. So the critter has all of 0.04 seconds to flinch. Why do you need a supersonic pellet?

    Herb



  28. Herb,

    Even if I re-read Janes post I probably couldn’t answer your question as well as Jane. LOL.

    I wouldn’t want a supersonic pellet in a springer because of the cocking effort the gun undoubtedly would require.

    I don’t need a supersonic pellet in a pcp since the velocity/ft lbs in existence are adequate for my needs.

    Jane is a buyer though.

    A design problem with a buyer for the product that’s better looking than me.

    kevin



  29. RE: High velocity “pellet”

    Part of what Jane wanted was a flat trajectory. Put a laser bore sight in rifle and look through scope. What happens?

    Since the scope is 1.5 inches or more above boreline, the scope and laser beam will only coincide at one spot!

    No doubt binocular range finding scope with an LCD screen is on the way. Till then shooting at varying distances, like field target, takes some practice.

    I finally built a bait station for squirrels. [Sorry but eating ALL the pecans green is a capital offense.]

    (1) Consistent close distance at which I can practice shooting.
    (2) Backer of criss-crossed 3/4 inch pine. So if I miss, then pellet isn’t likely to fly around the neighborhood.
    (3) Up high so that even if I miss backer, the pellet isn’t flying directly across street. It will fall back to ground with little or no energy.
    (4) Position where I can snipe. (Miss once and they get gun shy quickly)

    Herb


  30. You know, B.B., I just might take you up on that Phoenix visit.

    My mom is 89 yrs old and every year I take her to visit my brothers who live in Phoenix. In the past she has always gone there November through March, which, being from the Midwest makes sense, but this year she wants to go in April because (bless her heart) it's too cold there in the winter. LOL!

    No, she's not senile. The thing is it does get down in the 50s & 60s and even lower sometimes but even when it's in the 70s she still gets cold because my brother, the one she stays with, won't turn his thermostat up to 80 all day and night like she does at home. This seems to be the case with a lot of older people. When I visit her at her place it's a relief sometimes to get back outside where the air is cool.

    Anyway, if I can talk her into delaying her trip until May I will be attending the show for sure.

    -Chuck


  31. One more thought or two on velocity:
    I don’t need a higher velocity airgun either for my uses, however, I believe human nature being what it is we will push the envelope until we’ve wrung every available fps out the technology.

    Also I don’t believe the pellet has to go faster than sound all the way to the target. The sound’s shock wave, as does the pellet’s speed, diminishes with distance, so the pellet only has to outrun sound till the shock has no effect.

    I’m thinking the effect of a sound wave must diminish significantly with distance or else target shooters wouldn’t be able to shoot side by side without affecting each other’s accuracy. I dunno, do competitive shoots take this into account?

    -Chuck


  32. Kevin,

    Both the Morgan, Wegu and any other butt pad/plate would need to be fitted to the gun in question. How much depends on how large the rifle stock is in relation to the pad in question. As a matter of practice, you install the pad on the gun and trace/scribe around the stock. Using a grinder or whatever, you remove the excess on the plate. Repeated test fitting allows you to make a fine fit. The hard part is carrying the angle of the stock through the base of the pad. Any local gunsmith should be able to do this for you. Brownells also sells a pad tool to make getting the angle easier.

    I prefer the Morgans over the Wegu all day long. The “new” Morgans have a plastic plate that’s easier to fit than the aluminum of the deluxe. The deluxe looks much nicer in my opinion, but either is a huge improvement over a stock pad.

    I also emailed a response regarding that Beeman P17 question.

    Derrick


  33. Derrick,

    Thanks for all your time and insight regarding the differences between the wegu and morgan.

    Appreciate you jumping in to help the beeman P17 guy.

    kevin


  34. Kevin,

    I should mention that the 6 or 7 Morgan aluminum plates I’ve fitted were each done mostly on a 6″ bench grinder. None of them took over an hour of work. Much of this would, of course, depend on your comfort level and what not. Figure about 2 hours maybe if it’s your first?

    Derrick


  35. Derrick,

    I’ve got a bench belt sander.

    Did you use a jig that the one on brownells site or the butt pad jig that b-square makes or was it free hand?

    kevin



  36. Matt61, Randy, CJ R & All

    The EV2 is right over the horizon..
    Step by Step.. a custom 15 ft # AA MPR FT with knee rest comes in this week.. (Hey, the Webley Raider ain't nothin to shine off, it won our first FT contest).. The MPR FT is a step above the S400/s410 in trigger and stock.. the barrel doesn't need improvement as far as I can tell..(or trigger for that matter, it's mostly fit, not pull weight)..

    "The Ev2 has a rotary swagged barrel not known to be on any other air rifle. While most barrels are accurate, the use of rotary swaggering allows tight manufacturing limits to be used, and so improves the final quality of the barrel."…

    I'm hoping that what I've heard about this 12 ft # rifle overcoming 50 yard wind and drop issues is for real..
    Fit and comfort won't be an issue, by the looks of it!!

    Hey Folks,
    Just join up.. All members own all the inventory of the Ashland Air Rifle Range… (We have contests to see who shoots which rifle)..
    But members can come and try any rifle in the inventory.. as part of the membership.. If you're a far away member, then we ship it to you for a month… You need to have 125% invested…. 25% more than the product you want shipped..
    email me for details.. We want you to test it and report… hopefully on a video.. "circle of test guns".. tested by the average user.. what do ya think?

    wayne.burns@naturalyards.com

    My second good idea… out of how many? … Who could count?..

    Don't count… call it education… one sometimes cheaper that state provided.. and mo betta too!!

    Wacky Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range & Rentals



  37. Wayne,

    You've been busy.

    Your webley raider won the first ft competition? Did you forget to take the AA S410?

    I'm considering moving so I could be closer to Ashland Air Rifle Range & Rentals. (;-)

    You're such a generous guy that this will probably go in one ear and out the other but…I had to cringe at the thought of you sending some very fine airguns back and forth through the hands of the gorilla's working for package delivery companies. 125% insures the guns return but in what condition?

    Just a thought. Don't want to come across as negative but I also want your fine collection protected.

    kevin


  38. Kevin,

    Well, we have to start somewhere.. a loss is a loss, and a lesson.. Trust begets Trust.. or it's a lesson with an individual.. We will build a team of trusted members eventually..

    Yes, we didn't take the AAs410, since it doesn't have the single shot mag yet.. next week though.. and I'll be shooting it!!.. I just couldn't dope the 15 mph wind with the 12 ft # USFT last week.. I need more practice outside, not in the safety of 20 yards indoors.. more real life practice needed for this dude… Josh, and Chris traded off with the Webley with the FT stock, (shooting the JSB 10.2 exact at 907fps. BTW).. and I were neck and neck on the first round, but I adjusted my scope for a better second round, and instead fell apart.. And Chris almost caught Josh on the second half.. with the same Webley Raider.. The custom tuned & regulated P-70 is shooting over 21 ft # and tumbling the pellets… We need to use the 10.6 kodiak or crosman 10.5 to calm her down.. Nate finished last with her.. (the best gun, some would say)..

    this is too much.. the word verification is "dablog"

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  39. Wayne,

    Your ft course sounds like a blast. Except when a blast of wind comes.

    Is that the P-70 you picked up on the yellow? If it is that is one beautiful gun.

    kevin


  40. Wayne,
    Very interesting club you have there. Since I live in Illinois I would be restricted to airguns of .177 and less than 700fps otherwise I’d have to pick them up myself. Hmmmm…some 2,133 miles one way. How many great guns fall into that category?

    My sister used to live in Ashland for a few years. Too bad she moved. I coulda had a free place to stay and another reason for a road trip. She may move back some day but that’s remote.

    -Chuck


  41. Kevin,

    At this elevation, the wind blows a lot.. the good thing is; less, or no fog when the rest of the valley has it thick!!

    Yes, that is the "tricked out (titainium regulated air tank & nickle plated barrel) P70" from Anthony, off the yellow.. not your average P70.. Anthony said it was tuned for 10.5 CPH.. We haven't shot with them yet.. don't want to lead up the barrel anymore.. Anthony said with the CPH you need to clean the barrel every 500 shots or so.. or loose accuracy..
    But we are trying to use the JSB 10.2 or kodiak 10.6 instead… we will see..

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  42. CJr,

    Come anyway, we will find a “Shooting Sister” for you here.. plenty of camping space..

    Wow, not even 12 ft lbs (10.2 at 727fps)…. But, it sounds like a state that knows nice shootin air guns… even if they’re not good for hunting.. All the more reason to plan a trip…or move!! no sales tax either!!! come on down!!

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  43. Chuck !?!

    RE: “Also I don’t believe the pellet has to go faster than sound all the way to the target. The sound’s shock wave, as does the pellet’s speed, diminishes with distance, so the pellet only has to outrun sound till the shock has no effect.”

    You have completely misunderstood the shock wave problem. If the pellet is traveling faster than the speed of sound, then the pellet is creating the shock wave, not the muzzle noise. Hence the pellet cannot “outrun” the shock wave.

    Herb



  44. Wayne,

    Reading about you without an Air Arms rifle is like the Captain without Tennille or Sonny without Cher. Okay, I guess it happens. But have you thought about a .177 AA 400 with the side lever?
    Single shot and the same platform you’ve put thousands of shots through………


  45. .22 multi-shot,

    Mythbusters was testing BULLETS not diablo PELLETS.

    I do feel safe about shooting pellet gun up, but to be even safer is why I built the feeder. I didn’t like the idea of blasting away at squirrels on different tree limbs and sending pellets floating around in city.

    That is why I’m skittish about big bore guns. They are not shooting diabolo pellets, but bullets, yet the big bore guns are “air guns.”

    Much more worried about beaning someone with my awesome 200 yard drive on golf course than someone getting hit with one of my pellets. ;-)

    Herb


  46. Herb,
    Yes…I fell into a trap of looking at the sonic boom as being a single event in the life of a pellet’s travel. Now I see that the event is continually created by the pellet as pressure as it flies through the air and the sonic boom stays with the pellet for the whole trip or until it slows down. Therefore, the pellet gets no rest and must always stay faster than the speed of sound until it hits the target or else suffer the turbulence when it catches up. Whew! Am I close?
    -Chuck


  47. Volvo,

    I ordered a single shot tray that makes the AAs410 into the 400 basically.. So I WILL still be shooting my baby in the FT contests.. at least while I’m perfecting my wind doping skills with the 12 ft # USFT..

    And the s410 power adjuster lets me get that 10.2 JSB right at 900fps.. The P70 is shooting them at 980fps.. just a little too fast… so she needs the heavier 10.6 kodiak me thinks.. or those accurate but dirty CPH. 10.5

    Wayne


  48. Chuck,

    RE: Sonic turbulence

    Closer…

    From what I’ve read it seems that the sonic turbulence is worse (more chaotic) when pellet is around ( 0.8 to 1.2 ) the speed of sound.

    But as long as the pellet (or bullet) is going faster than the speed of sound, then it will create a sonic boom and a shock wave. The shock wave is a cone with the apex just in front of the pellet. A supersonic pellet can’t ever outrun the sonic turbulence. It’s like trying to outrun your shadow. When the sun is out your shadow is just there…

    Herb


  49. Wayne,

    Glad to hear you get to use your baby.

    Just wanted to second your observations on velocity. In .177 I think the low –mid 900’s is ideal.

    However, they say any publicity is good publicity so today I picked up my first Gamo PBA ammo. Pretty gold color. I knew ahead of time the results would be dreadful, but I just had to give it a try.

    My FX Whisper shoots Kodiaks at a bit over 900 fps for a little over 18ft lbs. Very accurate. It also loves the CP heavies. I only did a three shot group of the PBA since the spread was already over 5 inches. As you noted, they were clearly going in the target side ways as they tumbled. On the chrony they hit 1110fps, which is only 14.2 ft lbs. The loud crack was very un-whisper like as they left the rifle. I actually unloaded the rest of the magazine with my pel-seat.

    Just to summarize in the FX: loud, inaccurate, and less powerful.

    To be fair, I also tried them in the QB-78 and HW30S. Accuracy was non-existent in both, although they did not tumble. I spared my HW97K the insult.

    If my memory is correct, B.B. tested a Gamo rifle that they actually gave good results in?


  50. Volvo,
    B.B. has told us many times CP’s are not dirty they are treated with some kind of super high tech antioxidant.

    Of course your fingers get black either way.

    DB



  51. DB,

    It was Wayne who just mentioned that CP’s were dirty, and I have to agree. While I realize it is not actually dirt – right now my index finger and thumb are “black” as you mentioned.
    It is a small annoyance, and no I don’t feel like I spent a day in the coalmines, but my hands do look dirty.

    Maybe Crosman adds it’s so we wash are hands well after shooting? : )



  52. …Whiscombe Notes….Supersonic…

    Earlier this week there were some letters about supersonic effects on pellet accuracy. Herb was able to impressively pull together many informative references within this blog written by B.B. about this subject (does Herb have great computer search skill or just to much time on his hands?).

    I did not have time to add my $.02 at the time, so here I am now to say…

    A couple weeks back I ran out of the JSB Heavies that Whiscombe recommends in .177 for his Model 80. This was a natural result of the combination of shooting about 150 shots each evening for a couple weeks and PA not having these pellets for some months (I am in Backorder Purgatory and I thought I had done nothing evil…I gues I was wrong).

    I decided to try to see what kind of groups I would get from the really light pellets that make the gun go supersonic. In one of the books that I have read about John Whiscombe, he mentioned in an interview that his 80 rifle goes supersonic with light pellets and that this phenomenon was really cool (not exactly his words…I think he might have said, “impressive”).

    So, I started with both the RWS h.p. and the Hobbys, both around 6.8-7.1 grains. I did not adjust the HOTS, as I was curious to first see what would be printed on the targets without adjustments.

    I have found that there is a good correlation between how accurate the gun shoots different pellets when unadjusted and how accurate it shoots these pellets after HOTS adjustment…Not a perfect correlation, but if a pellet is printing 3/8″ groups (of 5) unadjusted, then adjusting the HOTS is not going to transfomr the groups into 1/16″ groups. And if a pellet is shooting 3/16″ groups unadjusted, then adjusting the HOTS will make this into a 1/16″ or better combination.

    This is 10 meter shooting (I expanded my 10 yard range a bit), by the way.

    While the Hobbys printed nice clean holes, they were quite unnacceptable, about 3/8″ groups of 5. And of course they all cracked like a .22 rimfire.

    The RWS h.p. amazingly were shooting 1-2/16″ groups without adjusting the HOTS (the HOTS was adjusted for the Heavies, which are around 10 grains). I have now shot a couple hundred of these pellets at supersonic speeds and am getting consistent, really excellent groups.

    As I mentioned, I am handicapped in being unable to get the pellets all through the same .177 hole, as I cannot use the wrap around gun over forearm style necessary for geting optimum accuracy in spring guns…it just hurts the back too much (I can shoot a few shots this way and do agree that it is definitely superior for accuracy).

    When this gun is bench shot, it is not as accurate as when held, and so I cannot test accuracy very precisely (only down to 1-2/16″) as I can with a CO2 or PCP gun that can be bench shot and thus at 10 meters can put all the pellets through the same .22 hole if the pellet is the right choice.

    So, it is possible that these supersonic pellet shots are actually capable of going through the same .177 hole (as the Heavies are known to be able to do with proper technique and weighing).

    After shooting 50 or 100 shots which crack like a .22 rimfire, it was fascinating to return to the subsonic pellet. Right away I noticed that I had developed a flinch, which I eradicated and then returned to the light pellets for awhile.

    Upon returning to the subsonic pellet, my flinch was gone. Now I noticed how quiet and airgun is, and I felt the gun in a way that I was unable to when it was cracking like a rimfire.

    So, now I will try a few other pellets to see if I can get acceptable accuracy from them so that I don’t have to wait forever for PA to get these JSB Heavies. Also, the cracking sound is fatiguing for me, and a good reason to shoot airguns is the quiet…something I now appreciate even more.

    - Dr. G.


  53. BB and kevin im doing what you said about the questions on the old one some anwser this is there an updated copie of the M1 cabine springfield or garand bb guns only no airsoft


  54. Anonymous with the questions about updated copies of the M1 or Garand bb guns,

    I’ve posted your question on the current blog. All you need to do is check the comments on the current blog for other airgunners that may have answers for you.

    You came close to the current site. You’ve posted your question under the SHOT SHOW article that was posted TUESDAY, JANUARY 20TH, 2009. Scroll up to the top and click on the comments that are under todays article, DIANA 52-THE TACTICAL WEAPON Part 2 (dated today) JANUARY 27TH, 2009.

    Hope to see some answers for you soon on your question that I posted in that comments section.

    kevin



  55. Hello BB!

    First off, I’ve been a fan of yours since I found your blog about a year and a half ago. I finally caught up to reading your first blogs of 2005. Thanks for all the interesting reading!

    Now, my question is without technicalities, plain and simple:

    I like Makarovs, and I’m looking forward to your review. Meanwhile, if you happen to know, could you tell me when is the PM slated to come onto the market?

    Thanks,

    D


  56. D,

    When I asked at SHOT I was told it would be out by May this year. I hope so, because like you I’m waiting. I have both a Bulgarian 9×18 Mak and a Russian BB pistol made from a Mak. This new PW would make three.

    By the way, there appears to be a lot of jockying about the name of the gun. I may be called something else when it comes out.

    B.B.


  57. BB!

    I posted my question at 1:03pm, you replied at 1:11! Crazy. Talk about instant gratification! Thanks for the quick response.

    Well, May it is then – I can’t wait for the new PM, aka Makarov, aka Mak, aka Pistolet Makarova, although I guess I’ll just have to!

    I’m now curious as to know if it’s similar to the older versions? I somehow doubt that it is made from actual gun parts as it once was?

    Speaking of older versions, I now have reawakened other burning questions regarding Makarov CO2.

    I currently have two – One from EEA Cocoa Beach, Florida and the other without that marking. Now, both are Makarovs, but the actual slide is different and I’ve always wondered about that. Unlike the one I see on your photo, the one that I have without the Florida markings has a more rounded slide at the tip of the barrel. Did the Russians have different versions of the Makarov they converted?

    Are there any threaded barrels that are available for them?

    Thanks, from your fellow Mak fan.

    D


  58. D,

    The PM is definitely not made from real Mak parts. Think of it as an all-Umarex gun–very realistic but nothing like the firearm inside. The plastic grip is a single panel that pulls straight back to reveal the CO2 cartridge.

    I don’t know about this history of Mak CO2 guns, so you are ahead of me there. I do know there are not-so subtle differences in the Mak firearms, depending on the country of origin.

    As for a screw-in barrel for the CO2 guns, again I don’t know. It wasn’t until I got a firearm that I really examined and compared my BB gun and discovered that yes, indeed, it is made from a firearm. I bookmarked a place on the internet that used to sell Mak parts including replacement barrels. This is it, though they no longer sell parts:

    http://www.makarov.com/

    At one time you could convert your Mak to .380 ACP with their parts. They even sold the tools to make the swap.

    B.B.


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