Norica Massimo - Part 3
by B.B. Pelletier
Part 1
Part 2

Today, I'll scope the Massimo to see how accurate it is. I promised to test the open sights first, so that's what I'll do.
The open sights are fiberoptic, so they don't have any precision; but where I shot was dark enough that the front rod did not glow. So, all I saw was a black bead, like a post-and-bead sight. I held the front bead in the center of a 10-meter pistol target placed out at 25 yards and shot some groups.
Crosman Premiers
Crosman Premier 7.9-grain pellets were the first that I tried with open sights. Surprisingly I got the best group I was to get all day, with 10 shots going into a group measuring 1.255" between the centers of the two widest shots. I know that sounds like a large group, but look at it for a moment. It's round which means even distribution, and it contains seven shots that are about one-third the overall group size. Remember, too, that I was shooting with a bead sight, which is not high precision. This group tells me the Massimo wants to be accurate.

JSB Exact
The first group was very encouraging, given the imprecision of the post and bead sights, so I selected JSB Exact 8.4-grain pellets next. Ten of them gave me a group measuring 1.4". Very close to what the Premiers had done and, again, there was the lack of sighting precision to consider. Again, the group was distributed in a fairly round pattern, indicating a tendency for greater accuracy if the aiming precision was increased.

And then IT happened!
Satisfied with the groups shot with open sights, I mounted a nice four-power scope and proceeded to screw up what had been a good day up to that point. I will show you what I saw after 10 shots with JSB Exacts that I know can shoot because they just did with open sights.

Well, that wasn't what I expected at all. Normally, I suspect something other than the scope when this happens, but in this case I knew it was the scope and I knew what was wrong. This is one of those scopes that has the base built into the scope. While that sounds like a good idea it isn't. When there's lots of barrel droop for which to compensate, as there seems to be with the Massimo, you can't compensate if the base and scope tube are made from a single casting. There's no way to shim or adjust the scope other than its internal adjustments. And when you run the elevation all the way to the top, the erector tube inside starts floating on top of its return spring. That's where all that lateral dispersion comes from.
When somebody else tells me their tale of woe about a scope that won't hold zero, I tell them to take it off the gun and use the open sights. But I had just done that, so I already knew the rifle could shoot. So, thinking I had found the problem, I changed scopes.
And then IT got worse!
I now felt jammed for time, because I was still testing the rifle after several hours had passed and wasn't done shooting--to say nothing about writing my report. So, after mounting a new scope, I decided to skip one step in my zeroing procedure.
You know my 10-minute zero procedure? If not you can read about it here. The step I skipped was the first one, which consists of establishing exactly where the scope is shooting after you have mounted it. In fact, I skipped ALL the steps after that one, too. Instead, I fast-forwarded ahead to the final step, where you just shoot the gun at the target 25 yards away and hope that the scope is aligned close enough to get you on paper.
Remember a few years ago I shot my couch? That was the fault of the gun. This time the fault was all mine as the pellet impacted the aluminum lip of the open window I was shooting through.
Remember the word I gave you to substitute for the word "accident"? That word was "stupident," and this qualifies as a big one. I decided to confess to Edith, who would have read about it here anyway, as she is my editor. The window still closes and the lip can be fixed with a little hammering and some paint. It's not unlike the hole I shot in my office ceiling a few years ago when the trigger of my BSF 55N let go without warning. Spackle fixed that one. Too bad they don't make spackle for couches.
Back on track
I finally got the new scope zeroed, and you know what? Steps one through four of my 10-minute sight-in procedure are important after all.
But nothing is as good...
And that's when the day became utterly confusing. Because the scoped gun was not as accurate as the same gun with open sights.


At this point, I had to back away from the test. I couldn't make any sense from the results. The hold can't be in question because I held the rifle the same way during the open-sight tests. The scope now seems to be working, although it certainly isn't as good as open sights.
Some days the bear gets you, and I've run out of ideas for this Massimo test. I believe the rifle is not only accurate but even a very good shooter. I know that if I try other pellets I may find a better one, but can anyone tell me why a rifle would shoot more accurately with a post-and-bead open sight than with an 8x scope? Am I having gross parallax issues (this scope has no parallax adjustment)?
I never even tried the Norica pellets that came packed with this rifle. Obviously there is more to do with the Massimo, but before I do it I want to figure the thing out.
Help!
Help!


62 Comments:
BB, I hope you remember me, I made a comment about a gun you shot recently where I suggested that hold sensitive guns are made worse by scopes because shouldering and cheek weld are not the same due to the scope's field of view (multiple viewing positions).
An open sight forces a consistent hold because the eye and head must be in virtually one place for every shot.
My other theory is the stock tells you if its designed for a scope... if it drops compared to the top of the forearm stock then you are better off with open sight. If its inline with the stock then your check weld pushes your eye in line with a scope.
Of course I'm referring to springers with a lock time that allows vibration to work its wonders. I'm sure PCP and CO2 like Rimfire are less sensitive to hold.
Experience: cutting my teeth on a RWS magnum springer for a year and shooting 2" 10 shot groups at 30 yards open sight vs several scopes and mounts that failed to group at 10 yards.
G.
G.,
I'm with you that parallax is probably the root of my problem. The Massimo stock is pretty straight, but the scope mounts I used are high, so I gave away the advantage of the stock.
I will let the other comments pile up before I decide what to do.
B.B.
B.B. remember the gamo shadowmatic I struggeled with for months and inquired of yoy several times.
Put one of beemans new adjustable scope mounts on the gun and resolve the problem. Do not as I did and spend hundres of dollars for all types of mounts and many hours trying to esolve the droop.
Earl
B.B.,
i've heard more than one complaint on Pyramyd and YouTube about having accuracy problems with a scope. it was because the barrel was shifting in its pivot. and you know what these guys had in common? they were shooting Hammerlis, and i'm sure everyone knows that Hammerli buys from Norica. do you think there's a connection?
John W.
John,
Interesting.
B.B.
BB,
What? A scope with fixed parallax? For an accuracy test? Shame on you!
I have had many problems with fixed parallax scopes on spring guns.
So much so I will not now use fixed parallax scopes on spring guns.
Try a good adjustable objective scope with at least 16 power and an adjustable scope mount like another reader suggested and see if that don't solve your problems.
I was going to suggest lock-up issues, but I see John W already did. When using the irons, both sights are attached directly to the barrel, and differences in lock-up do not change the relationship between front and rear sights. If it were mine, I'd look for slop or inconsitency in lock-up.
Jim in PGH
I should stress that parallax, while an issue for accuracy, is not what I'm driving at.
The rear of a scope has a field of view, this allows you head and shouldering to be different shot-to-shot without loosing your sight image. This happens with fixed and AO scopes.
Since some springers need a consistent hold to maintain aim during the lock time I suggest that scopes allow your head to be wherever it wants whereas open sights mandate a very consistent hold. ** There's only one axis for your eye with an open sight **
Presumably once the gun breaks in and starts to wear in a little the vibration/lock-time problem starts to lessen.
I never use the artillery hold; choosing to shoot from a kneeling position with killer accuracy every time. This is key as I remove pests and soda cans from a variety of elevations and angles.
G.
PS. Just saw Jim's comment about lock-up with break barrels.
I have suspected this as a culprit also along with inconsistent shouldering. The two factors combined would definitely add to the confusion. :-)
All I can say is, the Germans know how to make guns and my RWS comes with a really good set of open sights and an offset comb. And when I use them, without scope, I can hit whatever I please.
B.B.,
I think the problem is you were rushed and ran out of time.
As you always say, check all your screws make sure they're snug. Put marks so you can tell if the scope is moving in the rings and marks so you can tell if the mount is shifting on the gun.
Personally, with high mounts for this gun I think it's an inconsistent cheek weld especially when you look at the picture of the last group.
kevin
BB,
This is probably a combination of things. Fixed parallex, too high rings, and lock-up. Does the breach seal look like a clear or slightly white polyurethane ring? If so, maybe try to replace it with a "normal" butyl or nitrile o-ring. Been my experience that those poly rings can be too hard and don't squish the same way under the plunger force. A softer o-ring fixes that.
Can you tell that we're all pulling for you and really want this rifle to group?
Derrick
All,
Wayne's TF97 is up for grabs again. I've had it quite long enough. The link below will give you all a remind of the history of this air rifle.
http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2009/03/testing-tuned-tech-force-97.html
I shot this thing and helped it some ways. Below are the fixes made:
1. Front sight was loose and moved from side to side a bit. Fixed it by changing the size of the barrel pin that locked it in place.
2. Stock would not stay tight - and we all know that is bad for springers. Added some washers and small drop of lock tight to the screws and it is secure now.
I pushed a few tins of CRHP pellets through it and it is a great and very fun plinker. It is not worthy of a scope so just enjoy it with open sights and knock over some cans.It was frustrating because it showed signs of getting better than would go wild again. Just the nature of the beast I guess.
It is a 22 cal so knocking over the cans will cost you a few penney extra. But you'll put a bigger hole it them.
About shipping... the original shipping box is a pile of pulp. So we'll have to work out a shipping box. I'll try to make one or you can spring for a low end gun case. This will be your call. Though I think I'll seperate the stock and action for shipping to protect it better.
Just post here. As before first I'll take it gets it. You pay shipping.
BB, are you sure the barrel is locking the same each time? Maybe the base block screws are loose or the thrust washers aren't doing their thing. Someone else mentioned the seal which, while I've never personally seen cause such an issue, could also theoretically prevent the barrel from locking each time. With open sights being only on the barrel they will still point to the same place no matter how imprecise the base block is locking.
That reminds me of a question I always wanted to ask you. Has anyone ever made a scope mount that attaches to where the rear site would at the rear of the barrel? Obviously it would require a long arm to reach back to where the scope needs to be but this would eliminate any error from the barrel not locking in the same place each time.
Calvin,
A scout scope would have the eye relief needed to be mounted out so far from the eye, but I've never seen it done.
B.B.
When I got into this sport I didn't know it was going to be so complicated, but it really is, isn't it? Now look, even the experts are getting confused! I agree with BB's last one word paragraph - HELP! Can't wait to see how this turns out.
-Chuck
Chuck,
The definition of an expert is a drip under pressure. I'm no expert on airguns. I just shoot them and like to talk about them.
B.B.
It's startling to see you flummoxed, B.B., but I think it impossible you will be so for long.
Off topic inquiry: I like my Daisy 953 (a gun others have been discussing in recent months), but I am now completely spoiled by a custom target trigger on a Ruger Mk III handgun and I can no longer stand the lo-o-o-n-g pull on the 953's trigger.
The internet descriptions of doing a 953 trigger job are vastly too complex for my elementary skills.
Can anyone recommend someone who does trigger adjustments on 953s? For a reasonable price, I hope.
Thanks.
B.B.
If you're no expert, then there are no experts. You may not know everything but you've already forgotten more than most of us will ever know.
P.S. Nice blueing job. See, being married long enough will make any man better at following instructions.
BB....Is the barrel clean? The rest seemd to already by covered...try a different hold, check barrel lock-up, try lower mounts and try shooting at the fix px yardage(20 yards?).
It's like the harmonics have changed on a loose barrel when you added the scope.
One my 953 I used a light trigger spring...but does nothing for the pull only the weight.
AS for price,try locally, but for value try www.pilkguns.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXh4EuJa2TU
BB,
Anything I could think of has already been mentioned. Lockup seems to me to be the leading candidate, followed by change in hold preferce after mounting the scope. I've pretty much decided that scopes on springers are more trouble than they're worth, anyway:).
BG,
Can't agree with your conclusion about scopes on spring airguns.
I have several which are scoped. A Beeman R9 with a Beeman 2 X 7 scope.
Also a TF 59 with a TF 2 X 7 scope. Both scopes are AO and both have adjustable mounts and both are deadly accurate to 50 yards and even a bit beyond.
I have also used this same set up on other springers with great results.
So imho the problem with the Norico is either mounts, scope or lockup or some combo of both.
No such problems with good guns, scopes and mounts!
Happy Birthday to me (no today isn't my birthday).
The R-8 I've been looking for a long time arrived 2 hours ago.
Has some internal issues but I knew that before the purchase.
Here's the short story and some crappy pictures by me:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/405945/thread/1257879329/My+new%2C+old+gun.+%28promised+Mike+pictures%2C+don%27t+laugh+at+my+photography%29
kevin
Kevin,
Your new R8 is beautiful. The ratcheting noise is probably a tight mainspring jumping past a restriction one coil at a time. Paul Watts should be able to work magic on your rifle because he can swap out the old spring and guide for ones that fit. I bet you will love this rifle after you get it back from him.
B.B.
B.B.,
Thank you. I'm thrilled. Never knew an airgun could do that to me.
This little R-8 is gonna be around awhile. Love little, accurate plinkers more and more. Great stock with the palm swell. Old deep blueing.
Yes, I'm shallow.
kevin
Anonymous,
Your experience mirrors that of others, I'm sure. My statement was mostly tongue-in-cheek, but it is true that I simply don't like scopes and don't feel the need for them until around 50 yards, where most springers are well past their best range, anyway. Not only is the trajectory pushing the reliable adjustment range of many scopes at longer ranges, but the frequency of barrel droop adds the hassle of shims or special mounts, and the selection of truly springer-tolerant scopes can be a limitation.
A scope problem did lead to one of my most fulfilling projects -- rebuilding a 36-2 in part so that scopes could last longer than 10 shots and stay on the rails, but once I had it working well enough for a scope, I found that it was more fun to shoot with open sights, which I sometimes do at 80 yards and beyond (obviously not for groups!):).
I started with a Hammerli 490 a couple of years ago. It came with a scope, but since I felt it wasn't "unmanly" to shoot at shorter ranges with an air rifle, I shot at 10M with the open sights and discovered that my eyesight wasn't as bad as I had thought (I'm not saying its great, though:)), and I re-discovered my old enjoyment of shooting with open sights. The scope was never used on that rifle, longer than perhaps a short test (can't remember). It is still a lot of fun to use at 10-20 yards -- and longer distances for the challenge.
Anyway, that's a little more on my perspective and not intended to sway anyone else's opinion.
I've noticed that whenever I try to get something done with my computer and I have little time to do it in, the computer invariably screws up. I believe this is God telling me to slow down. Same thing with airgun testing...or almost anything else.
Kevin, nice air rifle and any work from Paul Watts is always a plus.
B.B.
Maybe there's something wrong with your second scope. Statistically unlikely, I will admit.... I don't see how barrel droop can cause a scope to group badly. Shouldn't the group just shift point of aim without changing its size? Clint Fowler says let the old hair top computer go to work and an answer will pop out.
All, I've decided to throw away my Crosman 1077. This goes against my grain as I have a sort of visceral attachment to my guns. Part of the thrill of owning them is that they are mine, mine, mine from first to last. So, I don't know if I will ever be a trader. Anyway, my 1077 simply tanked. It gave an odd fluttering noise and the trigger wouldn't operate. I pushed a cleaning rod down the bore in case there was a jammed pellet and think that I may have pushed a pellet back into the gas reservoir area. Afterwards the safety wouldn't work and there was a rattling sound upon shaking the gun.
My first impulse was to send it to Crosman, but they only fix guns under the one year warranty. I would have to find a service center whose quality I don't know. I've already had this gun fixed once, and the cost was comparable to the price of a new gun. Repairing it a second time doesn't make economic sense. So, I'm going to take advantage of the fabulous price of the 1077 by getting a new one and discarding the old one. The only question here is whether there are guidelines for disposing of an airgun. Do I just throw it in the dumpster? If there's any one who would like the parts or wants to tinker, it is yours for the price of shipping. Let me know quickly.
Matt61
Slinging Lead,
"being maried long enough will make any man better at following instructions". True.
Also... All men are incomplete until they are married then they are finished.
ajvenom,
The standard 953 trigger mod with one screw is very easy to perform. Need a drill, drill bit, tap, and a screw. All can be purchased at a Sear Hardware Store. I recommend a headless alan screw instead of the cap screw used in the on line instructions. This allows you to avoid the most difficult part... cutting out the space for the screw head.
Using a headless screw leaves you with just needing to drill a single hole in soft plastic and then tapping it. Both are very simple.
Not sure what length screw to buy... buy a long one and then cut it to length. Or buy several of assorted length... they are only a few penneys each.
Adding the screw on the link is more difficult. I've not attempted it yet but I'm planning to do it soon.
DB
Kevin,
The cocking noise could perhaps be that the sheet metal liner in the piston has shifted, allowing the cocking shoe to rub the mainspring. A long shot, but it's all I can think of given the info.
I think this comment chain could be its own blog post "What to do with an inaccurate gun?" with some tips about initial pellet selection when testing a new gun.
I can honestly say, firearms are a piece of cake compared to adult air guns. You can transfer your air shooting and scope mounting skills to a firearm with ease.
G.
I know, blah, blah, blah. I'll shut up now as my wife is sitting here mocking me...
Nice R8 by the way...
PurcHawk,
That comment about the 953 was for you not ajvenom. Sorry about getting the name wrong.
DB
ajvenom & derrick38,
Thanks for the compliments.
If anyone can fix the noise it's Paul.
Off it goes.
Matt61,
Sell your crosman on the yellow.
kevin
Matt61,
Since your buying a new 1077 it might be a good idea to keep the magazine box and clips. These should be reusable.
I've never shot a 1077 but I hear it take a while to break in the magazine box so you old one might be nicer than the new one.
Just a thought.
DB
WV: chymin as in chime in
This post has been removed by the author.
BB,
Your problem is obvious.
Let's look at the facts:
1) No time
2) Good Shot
3) A scope that doesn't even rate you saying its name! The word scope is in that article 20 times, but not once did you disgrace yourself by saying its name. Of course its the scope!
I bought a used 1077 and it's still going pretty stong after nearly 100 CO2 cartridges or approx. 5,000 to 6,000 rounds. The trigger did get a little lighter and smoother and more predictable, but still with a double action feel.
BB any luck with the Springer?
There is a cure you know....it's called a PCP.....lol!!!!!
I don't know anything about Norica springers.....this is where I heard about them. They look really nice and solid. The Spanish seem to really pride themselves in airgun manufacturing, so I would be suprised if it was just something like a loose screw, an uncommon hold or something.....
Kevin,
Can you sell broken guns? The 1077 is so cheap new that I can't imagine someone would pay for a broken one.
DB, I most certainly am hanging on to the magazine and clips.
ajvenom, yes the the Crosman rep said that this rifle should last for years. I've already had to repair this one once, so I wonder if there's something wrong with it. Hence my decision to buy a new one for a song.
Matt61
B.B.,
Thanks for the reply on the Disco logo. I'm planning to take it apart and do the 15 or so coats of cold blue to make it more attractive. Was worried about damaging the Discovery name on the air tube.
DB
Matt61,
Guns that need repair are sold all the time. Just disclose completely what the gun is and isn't doing and make sure everyone knows it's a project.
I'm convinced that a large segment of the airgunning populace would rather work on airguns (tinker) than shoot them.
kevin
BB,
Did you look at the crown and rifling? How about other pellets like premier heavys?
I would guess its that plastic barrel shroud messing with vibrations, try and bend it (gently) with your hand and look down the length. It might bend, my shadow express bends like that (but shoots better, dispite being a smoothbore).
Shadow express dude
All,
Sorry to be Mr. Obvious... but if I just shot the window in my house concentration goodbye would give me a goodbye kiss and walk away.
My thought is yes it could be the scope heaven knows I had one of those and it drove me nuts until I placed it in storage. But... it could also just be bad timing.
BB... give it another shot or twenty.
DB
Matt 61,
At the Roanoke show, parts guns are sold all the time. Ron Saul is forever buying broken rifles and pistols for their parts so yes, that 1077 can be sold as a parts gun or just given away for the shipping cost. In fact, there was an auction held where a pile of guns was sold for something like $10. Another rifle was sold for $20 because the buyer recognized the muzzle brake didn't belong on the rifle being auctioned and had the rifle in his collection that the muzzle brake belonged on! How's that for a knowledgeable collector.
Nope, I don't need a 1077.
Fred
Kevin,
I've bought several air rifles from Auto Electric in Media, PA. Airgun John (as I call him or John Souvier?)is a very nice gentlemen and a fair craftsman and repair shop. I'm surprised he sold ANYTHING that wasn't right or sounding right. I had a similar ratching noise on my RWS 350 when I cocked it. Turned out that I had caught the cocking lever foot under the main spring guide (a tubular piece of sheetmetal) and the noise was the cocking lever foot passing over the spring coils. It's easy to discover and even easier to fix although I had to replace the guide as it was ruined.
Fred
Fred,
John didn't sell me the gun. The seller bought the gun from Auto Electric & Parts on July 19, 1985. I wish there was a store like this near me!! You're very lucky.
Sounds like you've been around this passion for awhile and have attended Roanoke. I have a question.
The seller of this gun said he bought the scope that came on the gun at the same time (7-19-85). It's an RWS 4x32 Model 350. The only other markings on the scope is a gold sticker over the objective that says, JAPAN TELESCOPES INSPECTION INSTITUTE around the outside edge of the gold sticker, and on the inside of the sticker it says "108 PASSED". Obviously placed by the person that inspected the scope but it's the only other identifier on the scope. My question is, Do you think this scope is correct for the period?
The clarity even to the edges of the scope is wonderful. It's a duplex reticle and focuses down to 11 feet (11 feet not 11 yards!). I was thinking of getting some nice glass for this gun after it's tuned but if this is correct for the period I may just stick this back on the gun with some better mounts.
kevin
Fred and Kevin, that's an interesting aspect of the airgun culture. As a bearded Mr. Spock says on a Star Trek episode: "[Captain Kirk] I shall consider it."
Matt61
G’day BB,
This sounds like a new Sheridan pump I bought years ago. It would only shoot a +3” group at 20 yards with open sights. I spoke to the gun shop and they told me to put a scope on it which I did. It was still grouping round the same even with Warren Potent shooting it!
I took it back to the gun shop and they said they would fix the problem in a week. When I picked it up they gave me a 1” group on a target and said it was shooting fine. Back home it was still shooting +3”. I went back and asked them to replicate the 1” group in front of which they refused. So I went through Fair Trading and got my money back.
Looking back on it I think it may have been the Sheridan pellets the gun shop sold me. They certainly do not work in my Theoben.
Love to know what you come up with on this rifle. All the above bloggers are certainly giving some good advice!
Cheers Bob
Bob,
I knew I would get the best ideas our readers had to offer, and in this case, I really needed them.
Several people have focused on more accuracy, which isn't the problem, of course. The question is why this rifle is more accurate with open sights than with a scope, when it should be just the opposite.
I won't give up without a fight.
B.B.
Kevin,
assuming you go back to this comment section (I'm typing this Wednesday), w/r/t your question on the scope, I haven't the foggiest idea. BB and perhaps a lurker or two who are avid collectors, might know. I'll check my Blue Book tonight to see if the R-8 came with a scope in some iterations.
By the way, Auto Electric is about 2 hours away from me and the correct name of the owner is John Tripier. He told me he was the PA Champion at one point and produced a beautiful FT rifle for me to look at (which wasn't for sale and for the life of me, I can't remember the make and model).
Fred,
Thanks for the reply. I looked in the blue book and there's no mention of the R-8 scope combo package deal. I think the original owner just bought a scope (the RWS?) at the time he purchased the new R-8.
Wish the blue book of airguns had a section on vintage scopes. Many of the vintage scopes (beeman blue ribbon, tasco custom shop, discontinued leupold's, etc.) values should be tracked as well.
kevin
B.B.,
Interesting story about John Tripier. Seems at one time or another you've met all the influential airgunners
What's also interesting is your comment is not showing up on the blog?
kevin
Kevin,
I decided against posting it. I'm surprised you saw it, but I guess that's how the Blogger software works.
B.B.
DB,
If Wayne's TF97 is still in your possession, I'd like to give it a temporary home. Please let me know at Dropdog2@Aol.com
Thanks,
Mr B.
BB, have you tried a different scope yet?
ajvenom,
Not yet. Still letting the blood pressure drop.
B.B.
G'day BB,
Does it still group with open sights after you have removed the scope?
Cheers Bob
Bob,
I haven't tested it with open sight again. In fact, I haven't shot it since that last test.
B.B.
Send it to me and I'll do a report for you. :-)
G.
bb,
I'm sure that you've checked all the screws, so why don't you remove the scope and try the sights again to verify the problem?
just to make sure...
Luke,
I haven't checked anything yet. When I do go back to this rifle I'll check the screws, and the breech. Then I will remove the scope and shoot a group with open sights. Then I will mount another (third) scope and try again.
B.B.
B.B.,
just a thought, but you may want to keep your broken 1077, until AFTER you try your new one.
You may find the older one to be more accurate & could be that the barrel is broken in, & may want to switch the barrels out?
I could be way off base, but you never know?
Just a thought,
TheBBA
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