by B.B. Pelletier
First, an announcement. Pyramyd Air’s 2009 Gift Guide is now online. Besides the usual price-related categories, they’ve added a “Young shooters” category for those who are looking for those types of gifts. Visit the gift guide regularly, as they’ll be adding more products over the holiday season. Now, on to today’s blog.
The Benjamin Katana is a strange new PCP. Strange because of how it came to be–not because of its design, which is straightforward, for the most part.
Earlier this year when I was at the Crosman plant in East Bloomfield, I was shown a rifle they were working on in the back room. It wasn’t a new technology, in the same way that both the Discovery and the Marauder have new PCP technologies. Instead, the rifle they showed me was a blend of both of those airguns, taking features from each and putting them into one new rifle. Crosman engineers didn’t even have a name for the new gun, but at the time they were leaning toward the Discovery II.
That changed during the summer, and the company approached Pyramyd AIR, who is their largest dealer. They wondered if Pyramyd would be interested in a PCP they could call their own–with the Benjamin brand name, of course. They could retail it and also sell it to their dealers. Pyramyd AIR owner Josh Ungier was interested and he selected the model name, “Katana,” which is the proper name for a samurai sword.
As word of a new Benjamin PCP slowly leaked out in September and October, some in the airgun community made up their minds what it would be. There was the camp who felt the new rifle would finally break through the price “barrier” and Crosman would be offering the world the first PCP rifle to retail for less than $5. Lord knows, we’re all breaking under the strain of the $259 Discovery that can only be afforded by Daddy Warbucks and his Hollywood cronies! Compare it to fine European guns with target triggers, choked barrels and fine stocks selling for $400. Whoops! There aren’t any.
A second group thought the new gun would have all the features of the Marauder plus those they felt had been erroneously left off the big M. Things like a regulator, 100-shots per fill, 40 foot-pound power level, .25 caliber and probably some others. This crowd was certain the new rifle would be cheaper than the Marauder, which everyone knows can only be afforded by the idle rich.
In truth, the Katana is its own model, but that will be difficult for some to see because they’re overlaying it against the Discovery and the Marauder. I choose to look at it differently.
What if the Disco and the Marauder were not in the world? Then the Katana would be a kick-ass single-shot PCP retailing for $400 instead of $600-800 like its European equivalents. Of course, I haven’t tested it yet, so my remark about its potential for quality still have to be proven, but given that Crosman knows how to rifle barrels as well as Lothar Walther, and given that they already build some remarkable PCPs, I’m believing the Katana will be more of the same with its own special set of features.
Description
The Katana is a single-shot, precharged pneumatic rifle that comes in .22 caliber, only. When the Benjamin Marauder first came out, Crosman conducted a survey of which calibers shooters wanted in a PCP and the .22 was selected by 78 percent of those responding. It would be easy for them to also offer it in .177 down the road, but at present .22 is the caliber.
The styling of the rifle is the European look that most shooters seem to prefer. The wood stock appears to be beech and isn’t as over-the-top as the Marauder stock but is styled along more conservative sporting lines. At the rear is a thick, black rubber recoil pad. The wood is finished a smooth matte that appears similar to an oil finish. The stock comes with sling swivel studs installed. There’s no checkering, but there is a palm swell on both sides of the pistol grip, and the cheekpiece is on both sides of the buttstock, making this rifle very ambidextrous.
One very interesting point Edith made when I handed her the rifle is that it’s very light! The sample I’m reviewing weighs 5 lbs., 12 ozs. without a scope. Of course, there are no open sights, so a scope or other optical sight will be required. The receiver has plenty of room for the scope rings, but two-piece rings will be preferred because of the loading trough.
One reason for the lightness is the inletting of the action and reservoir. There’s a generous clearance on both sides of the metal parts before the stock begins. It’s a look I’ve not seen before.
The triggerguard has received a lot of criticism thus far. The angular shape appears to contrast oddly with the smooth shape of the rest of the rifle. It’s a good place for the aftermarket customizers to begin.
The Katana trigger is borrowed from the Marauder, which means it’s world-class. I will look at it in greater detail in a future report; but for now, know that it’s adjustable to a light, crisp pull.
What pressure?
There’s a pressure gauge built in, of course, and the question everyone, including me, is waiting to hear answered is just what pressure is this rifle set up to take? The answer is 2,000 psi. No, the fill pressure is not adjustable, as it is on the Marauder. That’s not bad at all. The Marauder causes some confusion with newer shooters who still think air pressure relates to the velocity the gun can achieve instead of the number of shots it gets per fill. They know that putting extra gas in a Corvette doesn’t make it go any faster, but when it comes to an airgun they get confused.
Speaking of confusion…
The manual that comes with the rifle needs some work. It talks about filling the rifle to somewhere between 1000 psi and 2000 psi “depending on your desired tune.” The tune has nothing to do with the pressure. The pressure determines the number of shots. As long as the pressure is within limits, it has zero to do with how fast the pellet goes. Those words probably came from the Marauder manual, but someone at Crosman needs to correct them.
In paragraph 3.D., the manual also talks about using the degassing tool if you over-pressurize the gun and refers you to manual section 4.B. Unfortunately, there was no degassing tool packed with my test gun and section 4.B. of the manual talks about something else.
The barrel
I pushed several pellets from muzzle to breech, and the 24″ barrel certainly seems to be choked at the muzzle. One shooter became confused by the mention of a choked barrel on a rifle in the Marauder description and argued that if the barrel was really choked then it couldn’t be rifled as the description also states. Well, choked rifle barrels have been around about as long as choked smoothbores. The choke helps bring everything into alignment just before the pellet leaves the muzzle, and it is a proven benefit for accuracy.
The barrel is not shrouded, so the rifle will have a normal discharge sound. That’s probably the biggest difference between the Katana and the Marauder, though doubtless many will feel the repeating function is even greater. Also, the barrel isn’t free-floated. There’s contact at the barrel band and at the muzzle. However, I’ll be testing accuracy, so these features needn’t worry you. We’ll know for sure how accurate this rifle is.
Overall initial impression
I like the Katana. I’m more comfortable with a single-shot than I am with a repeater, so in my eyes, the Katana is ahead of the Marauder. However, the Katana is not shrouded, and I know some people are going to complain about that.
Just hefting it, I like the light weight and slimmer stock profile that feels quick for hunting. The trigger gives you every opportunity for great accuracy. So, instead of seeing the Katana as sandwiched in between the Discovery and the Marauder, I choose to see it as another wonderful PCP from Benjamin at a fraction of the price of any European equivalent. The rest of this report and test should determine if I’m right.
Hi BB,
It was good to see you last weekend.
I am one who is disappointed that the Katana did not include a shrouded barrel. To me, the best idea would have been Discovery action and wood, with a Marauder trigger and a shrouded barrel. I think that would have been the best seller. But, Crosman may be saving that for next year.
David Enoch
Good idea to have an ambidextrous design. The Katana reminds me of the Logun Solo.
I'm disappointed my 4×4 didn't come with bumper mounted anti-taxi cab seeking rocket launchers and a passenger ejection seat…but they did improve the gas mileage, safety and handling. Small steps are what leads to the summit.
the Katana is ahead of the Marauder because is a single shot? Wow that' really weird since I can load my Marauder one pellet at a time if I want to I don't see that as an advantage, how about you need a really fast second shot? the only thing i think is better is that it weights less
Anonymous,
The only advantage you see in the Katana over the Marauder is that it weighs less?
How about the lower price for those that don't need/don't care about multi shot and shrouded barrel?
kevin
Your blog seems a trite testy there BB. I personally don't like the look of the stock inlay. It looks to me like they had the stock making machine set wrong, inletted the action too much, then tried to say it's "to reduce the guns weight" Should've shrouded it. Buy an aftermarket shroud or LDC, (most people want/need quiet PCP and will pay extra) and your $400 rifle suddenly isn't, it's $500+ Crosman knows barrels "Crosman knows how to rifle barrels as well as Lothar Walther" that might be a stretch ya think? How many Crosman barreled rifles have won 10m Olympic Gold. About the same number of "fine European guns with target triggers, choked barrels and fine stocks selling for $400." Don't get me wrong, I think the Crosman PCP's are great and Crosman is doing great things for our sport. But they are not the "Be all, Do all, End all" either. Every airgun made by anyone, whether they cost $20 or $4000 is not without it's faults and it's critics. And the Disco,M-Rod and now the Katana will be no different.
B.B.,
Good way to review ths Katana. Let's compair it to the other PCP's in its feature and price range.
Pa does not include its barrel length in the Katana's specs. How long is it?
If people want quiet. It can be done with a Muzzle Brake or fully shrouded barrel. Both are available from TKO and others.
The inletting of tha stock has me concerned. Sure looks like alot of space between metal and wood in your photo.
Is it the same stock used on the Maraurder? Is the reservoir and breech the same size on both guns? Thank you for your answer Sir!
Mr B.
b.b. Kinda off topic.
Just how long should a good quality airgun last?
A friend of mine, whom I've recently introduced to airgunning recently had to send his Umarex 1911 Colt in for warranty service. He purchased it in November, and admittedly has shoot quite a bit with it…he figures about 3000 rounds. Something in the mechanism controlling the CO2 release from the cartridge failed.
Now here's the part I find hard to believe. The service tech at the authorized Umarex warranty shop in Canada told him that 3000 shots was about what he could expect from one of these pistols.
3000 shots from a $200 airgun??!!
Please tell me this guy is wrong.
I have 5 airguns in regular rotation not that have seen this much use, and am hoping they're no where near the end of their lives yet.
CowBoyStar Dad
CowBoyStar Dad,
3,000 shots from the pistol or 3,000 shots from the part in the pistol that failed?
The rest of the gun works fine doesn't it?
Something sounds strange.
kevin
Kevin, yup the rest of the pistol works fine. According to the service rep the part that failed is not heat treated at all and is just not meant to fire thousands of shots.
The disturbing part is that the tech rep said (and this is a pretty accurate quote) 'that while airguns are often more intricate than firearms they are just not made to the same standards and that most within 5000 shots will fail'.
Now for a lot of people 5000 shots may be 5 or 10 years worth of shooting. My friend, whose 1911 has been in twice since he bought it 3 months ago is worried that once off warranty it will not be cost effective to repair.
In 2 years of serious shooting I've had two warranty issues ( a leaking seal on my 853c and a sticking slide on a PPK/s)
I have this 'hobby' of saving my pellet tins. 32 500 tins in 2 years…about 16000 shots between 5 guns. Now I'm a bit worried that all of sudden, once they're off warrant (all are now off warranty) I'm going to be paying dearly to continue my hobby.
CowBoyStar Dad
Since we're talking about three Crosman PCP's and I own the grandpa, the Discovery, does anyone on this blog know if I can upgrade my trigger to something like the Marauder's two stage, adjustable trigger? Anyone recommend any aftermarket triggers if not?
Fred
Fred,
Look on line and you can do it yourself. I did my disco with the “three screw mod” and while not pure target trigger grade, it is great!
Fred,
I cann't speak to your trigger upgrade question, but Derrick might know.
I'm about ready to get my Disco's trigger modified by TKO Airguns. They've got a kit that I'v heard nothing but good things about.
Mr B.
CowBoyStar Dad,
Okay, I get it. The tech was saying that all you could expect out of the PART in the pistol was 3,000 shots not the pistol itself.
Part must be made out of pot metal? Think I'd be looking for a good machinest to fabricate a stronger part if I liked to shoot the gun that much. If this part regularly fails at 3,000 shots (still seems a limited number to me as well as you) I have to believe there is an aftermarket part available.
Maybe your friend needs to do some research on the internet.
kevin
Fred,
All signs point to the Marauder trigger unit fitting your Discovery–however, at this point, Crosman is not selling the Marauder parts aftermarket. Should the parts become available, they will also retrofit the Crosman 2260 rifle.
There are several modifications that have been detailed online for the 2260 trigger that would apply to your Disco as well.
Try the 2260 trigger modification here first. It's easy and works very well:
http://www.spiralsol.com/airgunmod/
The TKO trigger that MrB referred to is also excellent if you don't want to wait for the Marauder unit (If it ever becomes available)
http://www.tko22.com/
The Marauder trigger, by the way is outstanding–just to make you agonize even more…
derrick38 you b#$%^*d – making my finger itchy and mouth water like that. I will investigate the spirasol mod and perhaps it's time to talk with TKO about barrel and trigger modifier(s). Thanks for the info 🙂
Mr. B – let me know how TKO's modification kit works out. This could be what I'm looking for.
Fred
Kevin, interesting enough the tech himself said he was going to try to do some heat-treating on this particular part.
I just find it odd that Umarex, that normally puts out such nice product would not have addressed this themselves, considering that the tech here says it is fairly common.
CowBoyStar Dad
Hey BB,
Thanks for showing this gun in a positive light. I am getting tired of the whining on the yellow forum about the Katana. Crosman is making a bet on the market and have put together a product they feel address a viable market segment. Only time will tell if this is a winner for Crosman.
In the meantime, people have a lot of choice. The Discovery and the Maurader offer different levels of options to suit many needs.
I am a springer guy, so I don't have a lot of interest here. I still lve my old Crosman CO2s from the 1950s best.
J Mills
Here is why I will purchase a Katana instead of a Marauder:
I don't like repeaters. Yes, you can get a single-shot tray for the Mrod but you still pay for the R&D and production for the extra repeater parts and the resulting loading slot is not as easy to use.
The magazine is another part to get damaged or lost.
A barrel shroud is immaterial to me; in fact I would rather not have one. I plan on purchasing a .25 caliber barrel in the future and a shroud would need to be drilled for clearance and would be less effective afterwards.
I had considered the Disco based on the price but I was not crazy about the stock or the trigger; having an R1 as your first springer makes you really appreciate a good trigger. The Katana addresses both issues.
I prefer the profile of the Disco receiver over that of the Marauder.
$100 will buy lots of pellets.
Just my $.02
Paul
J Mills,
If I had your springer collection I wouldn't have much interest in pcp's either.
kevin
What is the legality of all these custom made 'muzzle brakes' "LDC's' "Shrouds" etcetera? (Yes I know the difference of each) I find it to be more and more of a risk to put these aftermarket parts on airguns. Is this some 'gray area' with the law, or are airgunners just willing to take these risks?
I know most are cosmetic…but the question remains. Where does the law stand on these items?
-John Q. Curious
John Q. Curious,
Here's a good read that should answer your question(s):
/article/Airgun_silencers_What_s_the_big_deal_August_2006/32
kevin
Thanks Kevin!
On second thought, what I really want is just a Marauder with a single shot tray, and that is available. So, I don't have anythig to complain about. If Crosman thinks the Katana fills a need, go for it.
David Enoch
Nathan,
Since no Lothar Walther barrels have ever won Olympic gold, silver or bronze, your point is mute. Lothar Walther is not the Walther company that makes firearms and airguns. And if you look at the accuracy people are posting with the Marauder, then yes, Crosman barrels are as good as those from Lothar Walther.
You are right that no airgun is without its faults, but why have so many people jumped up against Crosman for introducing a new model at $400 when Daystate/Falcon/Theoben/Air Arms have been selling PCPs for two, three and four times the price? That is a question people need to ask themselves.
Crosman did not say their stock inletting (not inlay) is for weight reduction. They didn't address it at all. I said that it explained why the Katana is so light. Nobody said they did it for that reason.
B.B.
You can thank B.B.
There are now over 1,300 articles that B.B. has written. There have to be at least 20,000 comments (many of which contain great information).
This enormous library can be searched using the search box on the right side of this page.
I'm happy to help but after you use the search box you'll never need or want me again!
kevin
The Katana is really getting beat to death over at the Yellow and on other forums.. There's so many assumptions from people who have never seen it in person…its amazing. It's a bloody tidal wave of bitter product hatred and misguided and uninformed opinions. …incredible.
B.B.
My reactions to the katana thus far are, first, that the name doesn't quite do it for me. I like the word "katana" and I admire samurai swords. I've studied them quite a bit. However, Benjamin/Crosman has a long American tradition, and I believe that the Made in America feature is often a selling point. So calling something a Benjamin Katana sounds a little weird to me.
For all its good features, the rifle still seems to me, from the viewpoint of marketing logic, to be reworking the same ground. The Marauder and the Discovery seem to have all the good qualities bracketed with the Marauder offering world class performance and the Discovery the great price. I don't see what the Katana offers except for a very small niche for people willing to pay a very specific sum for very specific features. Anyway, I'm still a Marauder person, partly because I love magazines. But I'm sure the Katana is a very good rifle in its own right.
Matt61
CowBoyStar Dad,
If your rep said that airguns tend to fail after 5000 shots, he is way off base. My IZH 61 is approaching 80,000 shots and it's still on its first spring. Last night, yet again, I double loaded pellets down the barrel and fired them off, and it had no detrimental effects whatsoever. The next group was among the best I've ever shot. I wonder if springers last longer than other types of airguns.
By the way, B.B., any word on when PA will import IZH products directly?
Matt61
I personally wonder, what would be it's European equivalent? I bet it's not up to my Air Arms S400 if I'm honest. Over here, it's not that much of a price difference anyway.
That's right, I'm in Europe, Netherlands to be precise.
As for the Katana, everyone is going to have their ideas on what they want to see in this air rifle. If it had all the Marauder items, then it would just be smart to get a Marauder. Crosman should have a customize your own Discovery order page.
Hmmm, instead of calling the new PCP a Katana, maybe "Bowie" would have been a better idea? the Benjamin Bowie has a nice alliteration to it. Or the Benjamin Alamo? Lewis and Clark?
The use of the Japanese word, Katana, however does encourage discourse on the different forums and perhaps that is a good thing for Crosman and PA. Name recognition and perhaps more sales?
Regarding the Umarex 1911 Colt that apparently has a part with a predilection (tendency for you folks who don't like 4 syllable words 🙂 to fail early on, I suspect it's a problem in the manufacture in that lot of parts – perhaps poor or improper heat treating (or none). We have all seen this so many times, particularly in older American cars which had alternators or wheel cylinders fail regularly and so on while the rest of the vehicle components seemed to run just fine. One year of Ford's had a tendency for the wheel or slave cylinders on the rear drums to freeze up, another year had heat exchangers spring leaks (I don't love the smell of antifreeze in the morning).
Umarex needs to see who made this part and perhaps have a product recall or at least extend this part's warranty. Stuff happens and I don't think this is representative of the entire Umarex product line. At least, I hope not.
Mr. B.,
I mentioned the Katana barrel length in the report. It's 24".
The stock is not the same as the Marauder, as mentioned in the report. I'm pretty sure the reservoir is smaller, too. The breech is the Discovery breech, which is lower than the Marauder breech.
B.B.
CSD,
You started something with that remark about expected service life. I believe it was an offhand remark, but a service tech probably has a good handle on what can be expected from these guns.
No, 3,000 rounds is not acceptable.
B.B.
Matt,
Edith is working her little fingers to the bone, correcting the owner's manuals for the incoming IZH guns. They are due in right now.
B.B.
If Crosman barrels are so great then why didn't use one on the Challenger PCP?
If the stock is not the Marauder stock it's darn close. Yes, they are made with different wood but the general shape looks really close to the Marauder. Post a photo side by side. I bet the Marauder air tube will fit perfect into the Katana inletting.
Scott,
Crosman didn't use their own barrel in the Challenger because in the world of 10-meter shooting they don't have a reputation yet. The funny part is, neither does Lothar Walther, except, I guess, from Daisy and the 853.
The stock is definitely not a Marauder stock. It doesn't have the same dimensions.
B.B.
B.B.Your pic of the inletting on the Katana is a bit misleading–people don't seem to realise that it is sized perfectly for the reservoir, which is inside the stock for 3/4ths of its length. The photo looks dark inside, therefore people see it as sloppy workmanship. This is not the case!
The gap that appears on either side of the barrel at the top of the forearm is actually there. The reservoir contacts the wood at around its midpoint.
From what I have been reading on the Yellow, people understand that. They are complaining because the wood sticks up above the reservoir, which it really does.
B.B.
CSD…that's too bad about your friends colt….I feel they should have had way more shots before servicing…
I have three economical air rifles that have over 5,000 shots apiece:
Crosman Quest 800(with lube and trigger tune)
Used Crosman 1077 (with a barrel stabilizer insert)
Daisy 953 (with a minor trigger tune)
My Crosman 1377 (with trigger/sear mod and steel breech) has about 3,000 pellets through it and still works great.
So there is a springer, CO2, single pump air rifle and multi pump air pistol that all have been holding up well. It probably won't take long to hit 3000 rounds on my Used Benji Disco, but I'm sure pcps will last a long time as they seem a lot more solid than I expected.
B.B.,
I guess what mean is that it looks too similar(very, very similar with subtle differences) to the Marauder stock. I think that also plays into a lot of what is being said about the gun & having it's own identity.
B.B.
Ugh, from what I recall of the IZH 61 manual that's a lot of work for Edith. I hope the deadlines are not too severe.
Fred, you've hit on my great fear with surplus guns. Who knows if the heat treatment and other critical procedures were performed correctly in work that is lost to the historical record? Some 1903 Springfields are unsafe to fire because of improper tempering of the metal. Certain 30-06 conversions of the Mosin Nagant are unsafe. (I believe Norman Mailer's novel, The Naked and the Dead has a passage about some girl on the assembly line daydreaming about her boyfriend and missing a step in the manufacture of a grenade. Fade out fade in to the battlefield and a soldier gets blown up when he pulls the pin on his faulty grenade.) How could you know the status of a rifle off the shelf?
Regarding the historical katana, my best information is that among swords its speed and cutting power are unsurpassed. However, the manufacturing process of laminating layers of steel is fundamentally similar to that of other famous swords of history including the Viking swords. And the quality of these other swords was not far behind. What made the katana stand out was the extra attention to detail evident in recent Japanese car manufactures…. Because of its great cutting power, the katana was used in circular cutting strokes independent of a shield. European weaponry took a different route. Even prior to the development of the rapier, the doctrine of German medieval swordsmanship was to have the point continually moving towards the opponent with the edges positioned to slice. Is it such a stretch to move from this straight geometry to gun development and the path of a bullet? Anyway, you wouldn't want to get in the way of a feudal warrior of Western Europe and, from everything I've seen, they were essentially comparable to the samurai.
I'm curious about how a shroud on a pcp can be completely irrelevant. Even if you could shoot outdoors whenever you wanted, pcps are supposed to be almost as loud as rimfires, so if you wanted to protect your hearing while using an unshrouded rifle, you would have to truck around earplugs or ear muffs. Wouldn't a shroud be much easier? How could one not want a shroud when it's available? 🙂
Matt61
By the way, did you know that Japanese pronunciation puts exactly the same stress on all the syllables. Can you say katana that way? 🙂 It sounds quite different from what you think.
Matt61
I am really hoping that the problem with my friends Colt is a specific problem. Just a little touchy because I just tried to install a CO2 cartidge in my Nightstalker last night and all the gas leaked out in seconds. This is a known problem and I'll send it back for warranty service tomorrow…if it happens again I'll bite the bullet and buy the Beretta CX-4.
I too have airguns with thousands of shots. The tech guys explanation just got me to thinking if it isn't partly the nature of the beast. The thing I really like about airguns over firearms is how easy it is to pop down to the basement after supper and fire off 100 rounds.
Every night!
It doesn't take long for the shot counts to add up big time.
CowBoyStar Dad
CSD,
Then think about the systems (guns) that fail and the ones that don't. The ones that fail are the action guns, the repeaters, built to a low price and made to use CO2. The guns that don't fail are the single-shots and those that use a spring or possibly one of the pneumatics.
It's the type of gun that lends itself to failure or not. A low-powered springer should be a reliable gun, while a rapid-fire repeater will always have problems.
Could the action guns be made better? Of course. But nobody would buy them if they were. You have fuses in your car that last for years, Space circuits have fuses and protecting technology that lasts for decades and costs hundreds or thousands of times more than the parts in your car. Christmas tree light strings have cheap circuits that last for several HOURS of operation, but not for even months.
It all boils down to cost and what we are willing to pay.
B.B.
Matt61,
Katana for me will always first bring to mind the Suzuki line of motorcycles (crotch rockets to the rest of you). Mention Ninja and it's Kawasaki's line of motorcycles. (I've ridden both brands and let me tell you, those rockets, while fast as can be, are super uncomfortable after 30 minutes).
As for swords, I used to be a fencer in college and the Saber was my weapon. It's a slashing weapon, as is the Katana, but I could always score a point or three in matches by attacking with my point. Other Saber fencers didn't know how to parry a move more common to the foil or epee. Boy, are we on a tangent now! Work is slow today.
IZH 61 manual: Mine is still sealed in the plastic. I've been shooting the rifle for a few days. Matt61 and Slinging lead I will report soon.
Katana – Crosman should shroud it, left room in the stock anyway.
B.B.,
Thanks for your reply. I should have stopped with my statment that PA doen't have the length of the Katana barrel listed in their specs of the gun.
Mr B.
Gold nugget for Crosman,
Change the Katana stock to an AR style polymer to off set the shroud cost.
Black rifle fans will like it, plus less like the PCP's they already have…
b.b., I definitley see your point. My Slavia, Avanti and Gamo Compact have bascially very simple mechanics (springs, pistons, levers) and had costs ranging from $200 at the cheap end (Slavia) to $350 for the Avanti.
The Nightstalker, with repeat capability and blowback came in at $100.
I guess it's just not meant for heavy use.
But I really like how it works…so if the new one (they say they will just replace it) kacks, I'll probably spring for the Beretta.
Thanks guys for all the feedback.
CowBoyStar Dad
Fred,
Fencing is a fantastic martial art and a great favorite of Bruce Lee's. I would have pursued it if I had the time.
Matt61
BB,
I think Crosman and PA misread the market by not including a shrouded barrel but changing the stock. From the Discovery owners I've seen comment fully online, the main gripes seem to be no shroud and less than ideal trigger.
While there are many who don't like the Discovery stock as well as they might, the actual owners seem to either tolerate it or like its handy size. The negative comments on the Discovery stock from owners tend to focus on finish issues rather than styling. To my delight, it seems that many others share my disgust with the swoopy styling of the Marauder stocks, plus the inletting that you show on the Katana stock is not going to make anyone happy.
In my humble opinion, shrouding and choking the barrel of the existing Discovery would have provided a more cost effective and attractive product to consumers, since aftermarket triggers and stocks are easy upgrades (if needed or desired). On the other hand, I for one am not going to mess with adding any other device that might get me a visit from the men in black jackets, period, whereas a factory-fitted and shrouded barrel should pose no issues.
In conclusion, this article is one of the few where I felt you were trying to sell us a bill of goods. Knowing you, I'm sure that's not the case, but as someone pointed out earlier, your tone seems noticeably strident and uncharacteristically sarcastic in this piece. Sorry.
Matt,
There's a great show on the making of a Katana, I think it was "Weapons Tech" on the history channel. If I remember correctly, they smelt (?) the iron all at one time only once a year in what seems like a religious ceremony. The method of tempering the back and edge differently was fairly complex as well. Wish I could remember the exact details of the show, but its been a long time.
BG_Farmer,
Yes, I do feel passionate about this air rifle–but not for the normal reasons. I have been listening to airgunners trash the Katana since before anyone knew what it was. I was at the Lasso match last Saturday and five different people confided in me what Crosman's mistakes were in building this gun.
Now, how many times do you think anyone ever did that with a Daystate or a Theoben? Never!
Despite the shortcoming those two brands have (someone earlier today pointed out that ALL PCPs have faults) nobody does anything other than get in line and praise the Emporer's new clothes. But let an upstart American company come along and knock 50 percent off the price while maintaining the performance and you'll see the food fight begin. It seems the airgun community can't wait to jump all over an uppity American company that doesn't seem to know its place.
Well, I like to champion the underdog. So, as much as I didn't want to like the Katana, because it pushes against the Marauder that I really do love, I HAVE to like it because I will not be buffaloed into conformity by anyone.
Yes, I was spring-loaded to defend this rifle, because THEY made me do it. And no, I absolutely WILL NOT cut it one bit of slack on the performance end, just because I am defending its right to exist. And that's something THEY can't stand!
B.B.
On the Mosin conversions remarks above: All, no exceptions, any Mosins coverted to .30-06 Springfield are unsafe. I beleive it was Bannerman's who started this in the early part of the 20th century. They coverted some to the .30-06, to get rid of huge stocks of surplus rifles. They did this by simply running a chambering reamer into the breech to rechamber to .30-06. This resulted in an oversized chamber by about 20 thou or so. The .30-06 is also rimless and the 7.62 Russian is rimmed. The Mosins are very good guns when used with the ammunition they were designed to fire. All military guns from most country's , while they may seem crude , are usually safe. If they are in good condition and used with the proper fodder. Even the low numbered Springfields didn't have a huge failure rate. Another US military gun, the model 1917, was also critized as having receiver cracks. The ones made by Eddystone were suspect. Turns out that most cracked when re-barreling to other calibers by aspiring gunsmith's, due to very tight barrel/reciever joints. Some things are best left alone. Robert
Hey guys what would you think is the most accurate grouping that a person could achieve when shooting offhand at 100 yards?
If a .177 jsb is fired with a 12 ft lb muzzle energy, what is the remaining energy at 100 yards?
How many ft. Lbs are required to humanely kill a rabbit?
And also what is the best group a daystate airwolf tuned to 12 ft. Lbs could produce at 100 yards?
Lots of stuff but thanks guys
and with my lower age, my budget is also lower. I find this rifle pretty appealing but my pockets/parents don't.
BB,
Thanks, I think I understand now, and I agree that there was an unusual uproar about another option in the market place both with Marauder and Katana. As a fan of current Savages, I've been there — although that tide is slowly turning:). There is an unfortunate trend in every hobby for elitism to turn ugly. I also have to admit that I can get the same way when it comes to sorry-***ed shooters with expensive equipment:).
The only thing I could possibly add is that in opposition to the gun snobs, there are those who feel that the Discovery opened up a new market segment in PCP's and are simply disappointed that the Katana and Marauder seem to compete with guns that they won't look at anyway. A shrouded Discovery would be attractive to those of us who can't see that many advantages to PCP's over .22LR's (especially when you factor in pricing), as well as those who need a quiet air rifle because they live where firearms are prohibitted. By all accounts, the Discovery was a marketting hit: strange that they won't follow up in the same vein.
G’day BB,
I would love any of those Crosmans but unfortunately none are available in Oz. As far as the fancy brands go they are 4-7 times the $400 you pay, over here in Oz. You guys don’t know how lucky you are with anything that shoots over there compared to us!
I just bought an American CR unit from iCRco. It is a generation in front of similar units from Europe and Japan. I certainly have no problems with good gear at the right price which this unit exemplifies. Guess I’m not a snob!
Cheers Bob
It looks like we have too much choices with PCPs recently! Confusing to say the least. What is the Length of this rifle? It is not mentioned in the specs on PA.
Nick,
You've asked some interesting questions but most can't be answered.
1-"most accurate grouping that a person could achieve when shooting offhand at 100 yards?" Depends on ability of the person, depends on the gun, depends on wind that day, depends on ammo..etc. Can't answer that one.
2-"If a .177 jsb is fired with a 12 ft lb muzzle energy, what is the remaining energy at 100 yards?" Had to make several assumptions to give you a close answer. First assumed the jsb .177 caliber pellet you're talking about is the 8.4 gr and assumed that there is NO wind. Using a BC of 0.0210, 800 fps at the muzzle (12 fpe) at 100 yards you will have approximately 3.9 fpe. Would someone check my math please.
3-"How many ft. Lbs are required to humanely kill a rabbit?" You'll get a lot of opinions here but I for one like humane kills. For small game I like to see at least 1.5 fpe of gun for every pound the critter weighs AT THE TARGET not at the muzzle.
4-"And also what is the best group a daystate airwolf tuned to 12 ft. Lbs could produce at 100 yards?" Impossible to answer. Who is the shooter? How much wind? What caliber? Off hand or bench rested?
kevin
Robert,
Thanks for your info about surplus rifles indicating that the flaws are in fairly well-defined groups and traceable to rational causes.
Nick, given the human factor in offhand shooting, I don't believe you will ever get an answer to best possible group. Even if you did, I'm not sure what it would tell you.
On the subject of Crosman pcps, I may have my criticisms of some guns, but I think the development as a whole is fantastic–the price as much as anything.
Matt61
Thanks kevin.
The first accuracy question I guess could be rephrased as what would an extraordinary offhand group size at 100 yards judging shooter ability alone.
Daystate .177 with best possible conditions and no outside input.
Well, throw a power adjuster on the Big Kahuna and it should help quiet the air rifle and improve the shot count for short range target fun and hunting. In a .22, is it really that loud?
I also want to see if the Big K in action, especially with the L/W barrel. I still wouldn't mind having that barrel on my Disco.
Nick,
Not trying to dodge your first question but I'm not sure your clarification made the question any easier to answer. I think matt answered it best. The major variable here is the shooter so the question is impossible to answer.
Bear in mind that the number of shots per "group" will have an effect on group size. If you're talking 2 shot groups they'll be smaller vs. 10 shot groups.
I've never owned a daystate airwolf. I've only shot .22 caliber pellet guns at long range since they have a flatter trajectory and aren't as affected by wind at the velocities I shoot vs. the .177 caliber pellet. I have a AA S410 that I shot alot this summer at 100 yards benchrested (front and rear bag). In minimal wind 5 shot groups were common.
Best way I can answer your remaining questions.
kevin
Sub-moa 5 shot groups?
Thanks Kevin
I have only fired one 5-shot group at 100 yards with a .177 Air Venturi HaleStorm. The group was just over 2 inches using CP Heavies, the most accurate pellet in this rifle (for me.) 75 yard groups ran about 1.1" and the best at 50 were .5" to .6". Fired from a rest (front support only) and no wind.
Paul
Well, it's my birthday at the end of this month, so I ordered a Daisy 499. It just came by FedEx. I love accuracy. I unwrapped it lovingly, screwed on the 5899 peep sight, placed a Crosman 850 target trap at 13' and fired three shots for a quick half inch group…not bad for someone with the shakes who's unused to peep sights, shooting unrested. I have 2000 Avanti precision BBs coming from PA tomorrow. Should be fun, once they come and I take the time to set up a proper 5m target outside.
OK, now to read the instructions, since the adrenalin has subsided.
RE: Katana show on PBS
The Secrets of the Samurai Sword
http://airgun-video.pbs.org/airgun-video/1150578495/
Finally home from work I have time for more than a hurried comment. I am at the keyboard listening to Dean Martin, enjoying a beverage and pondering the Katana.
First, I feel the need to clarify my nature. In nearly 50 years I have indulged myself with 1 nice watch, 1 good pen, 1 above average auto and a few quality air rifles. None of these items are topshelf, but in the “nearly” category. The point is most of my purchases are based on value with a few small treats thrown in the mix. I even made my living selling the value of affordable new housing for a decade. (McMansions to the snobs) The closest I’ve come to a pool room in my home is the two ringer we had on the patio when the kids were little.
The point is I agree a high price tag is not a prerequisite to satisfaction and anything can be over engineered. A fancy name alone does not impress me without performance and quality to back it up.
Value:
The worth, importance, or usefulness of something expressed in money that is thought to be a fair exchange for it. Katana = $399.00
So shelving my wishes for what I think would sell and complement the existing Benjamin PCP’s (shroud and nicely fitted synthetic stock – think affordable single shot Whisper) I will wait for the rest of BB’s review.
Volvo
Volvo,
Tupperware or laminate stocked Discovery with a shrouded, choked barrel — I'll write a check right now, if it comes with a pump (I'm not going to waste time looking for an air source), so you can get on with your springer tuning career:).
Let me take a shot at rewording Nick's questions.
1. What would you think is the most accurate grouping that anyone has actually achieved when shooting offhand at 100 yards?
2. How many ft. Lbs are required to humanely kill a rabbit? Excellent answer already given.
3. What is the best group ever achieved, that you know of, by a daystate airwolf tuned to 12 ft. Lbs at 100 yards?
Nick, Go here:
http://www.airgunarena.com
And look at the eMatch info and eMatch scores.
These are eMatchs of many different guns and positions by guys and gals like you and me. Look at the scores turned in and at the targets they're shooting at and you'll get a flavor of what's expected from each gun entered and what you have to do to beat them. I would strongly suggest you join in, too, and have some fun and get a real eye opener as to your own skills as compared to others like you.
-Chuck
Nick,
I once witnessed a man shoot a 5-shot group offhand at 100 yards that measured about 2.5 inches center-to-center. He was shooting a National Match M1A in .308 caliber. He was also the Maryland State Highpower Champion.
I was shooting from a rest next to him and my 5-shot group of 6.5mm Swedish Mausers measured about three inches.
B.B.
Joe,
Please keep us posted on your progress with that 499.
B.B.
The Katana measures 39.5 inches overall.
B.B.
BG_Farmer,
The reason the Discovery and Katana don't have a shroud is the low receiver. It doesn't separate the barrel far enough from the reservoir for a shroud to fit.
I do think that Crosman will listen to all the remarks about the Katana and they may possibly field new models based on what people say they want.
B.B.
You CAN put a ldc on a Disco or Katana and it MAY or may not reduce the noise. And it may or may not be legal, depending on who you listen to.
Seems maybe they should offer models with “permanently” attached ldc’s that DO dampen the noise?
Just my 2 cents.
All three, the Disco, Marauder, and Katana are nice guns and innovative in their own right! I would be proud to own any of them!
Nick and Kevin,
2-"If a .177 jsb is fired with a 12 ft lb muzzle energy, what is the remaining energy at 100 yards?"
Kevin, your math is correct. 3.9fpe at 100 yards. Another interesting stat, with a 5mph constant crosswind you will suffer 12.46" of drift at 100 yards. This is one of the reasons why I won't shoot pellet guns beyond 20-30 yards for humane kills – I can miss! My 17 HMR by contrast has only 3.3" of drift with a constant 10mph cross wind (2550ft/s muzzle, 136fpe @ 100 yards, 17 grain V-Max)
FYI: A great piece of free software to run these numbers for all air and powder guns is GNU Exterior Ballistics Computer… http://sourceforge.net/projects/balcomp/
3-"How many ft. Lbs are required to humanely kill a rabbit?"
Shot placement and ammo is very important. When shooting a magnum springer in the heart/lung I found game would last longer with 177 pointed pellets than 177 hollow points. The crow magnum HPs would create a bigger entry wound and presumably a wider wound channel.
I like Beeman ammo because they don't make their own; they import and rebadge what they consider to be "best in class". For instance the Beeman Kodiak is the H&N Baracuda Match… /blog/2005/10/pellet-profile-the-hn-baracudabeeman-kodiak/
Beeman recommends the following advice on accuracy and ft/lbs energy. In short, depending on your game, I would say keep it under 30 yards with a 12fpe gun.
G.
Quote from Beeman.com
To a varmint hunter, an air rifle is a tool for the job of bagging game. Just as different jobs require different tools (you wouldn't use a tack hammer to drive 3-penny nails) so do different hunting situations require different air rifles. The paramount aspect of hunting air rifles is acceptable downrange accuracy. If you can't hit your target, no amount of super pellet energy or "penetration" is going to do you any good. Next most important is downrange energy.
Pigeons and other pest birds require one-inch accuracy at 20 to 30 yards; Grey (Tree) squirrels require similar accuracy, but at least 8 ft. lbs. of energy at that distance.
Crows require two-inch accuracy at 40 to 60 yards, the same as "wild" woodchucks, but the chucks require 10 to 15 ft. lbs. of energy at that range, the crows only half that. "Suburban" woodchucks can be approached to within 30 to 40 yards, so a less powerful rifle will do.
Airgun shooters should use this guide to help select the three or four different pellet types that seem closest to answering their own shooting needs. Then shoot these pellets for accuracy to get an idea of how well each type behaves in your own airguns. Shoot into bars of soap at field ranges to learn how well different pellets penetrate and expand for hunting. There is no substitute for this personal testing which will quickly lead to the selection of the most effective pellet type for your own particular use–and boost your accuracy and shooting satisfaction to new highs.
Maybe I just don't get it but…..
Why the heck didn't Crossman just add the marauder trigger and swivel studs to the Disco and viola!!
It couldn't have cost more than $10 to $15 in production costs and maybe $25 – $35 on the finished gun. Then you have a REALLY nice entry level gun without redesigning the whole ship!
I think the Katana is a fairly ugly overpriced gun. (compared to it's REAL competition – the Disco and M Rod)
pcp4me,
To get retail price, multiply the manufacturing cost by 5. So $10-15 becomes $50-75.
I said the manufacturing COST, not what Crosman sells the gun for. To get that they factor in their company overhead and any profit they hope to make. The distributor then has to price the gun at retail so their can sell it to their dealers and both they and the dealers can make a profit.
B.B.
BB,
I see your point! Besides, I modded my Disco with the “three screw mod” readily available on the internet, and the trigger is great!
NOT Olympic Match Grade great, but I am not Olympic Match Grade great shooter either!
For my purposes this gun is fantastic. I added a BNM multi breech to it, and a gorgeous laminated lightweight stock in beautiful red, black, grey, and brown tones to complete it!
The gun is gorgeous, light weight, accurate, and multi-shot! It cost me about $750 – $800 total, but now I have a one of a kind gun which is designed exactly to MY specifications! I even picked the best of three Crosman barrels to put on it for improved accuracy!
Oh, and it also has a custom power adjuster which I am currently experimenting with to determine where best to set it! So with 14.3 gr chps I can set it to 600 fps for indoor shooting, and crank it up to around 950 fps for varmint busting!
Ryan,
I wouldn't expect most people could hit a rabbit with a centerfire at 100 yards from the offhand position, much less with a rimfire or air rifle. If the best group offhand at 100 that BB has seen is 2.5" with a c/f, that should tell you something. In my experience 4 inches would blow away anybody that saw it.
A real benchrest shooter, with a 6mm c/f can shoot one hole at 100 yards under good conditions. 1/2 MOA with a rimfire would be exceptional, and the best air rifle shooter I've ever seen (on line, he lives in the antipodes) gets 1 MOA regularly.
The wind isn't going to be kind to a pellet, and shooting at 100 yards with anything more than a mild, steady breeze is going to destroy the group, even from a bench, because of the poor BC of even the best pellet.
For offhand shots, 25-30 yards with an air rifle is about the upper limit, and many of us should not even attempt that. You might go safely (humanely) to 40 or 50 from a rest on small game, but you need to ask yourself if its right and/or if you need the food badly enough.
Don't believe everything online about 100 yard one shot kills — if they happened it was luck. Keep in mind that serious hunters will be very cautious about rimfire shots beyond 50 yards, and those bullets have BC's roughly 10X that of a pellet.
This all applies to game. If you want to shoot at cans or paper, try any range or position you like.
BG,
I have to differ a bit with you on .22 rimfire capabilities.
In my life I have owned two .22 rifles which were sub moa at 100 yards from a rest. (Calm day)
Over many years in my youth and adult life I took down 1000’s of squirrels with head shots at ranges from almost point blank to a measured 92 yards. All with one shot to the head! Probably 10 – 15% were in the 50 – 70 yard range. I always shot from a sitting position with my back up against a big tree and my gun rested on my knee or thigh! I also used a range finder so I knew my range.
Yes, I only did it once in my life at 92 yards, and probably less than 10 times at ranges from 75 – 85 yards!
I had over 1000 acres of forest land available to roam and hunt. I hunted about 2 or 3 times a week and alternated plots.
If I did not kill my limit of 6 in < 3 hours, I considered the hunt a bust!
And all the squirrels went in the pot at home to help feed my family of 8!
Luck has nothing to do with things if you are an avid squirrel hunter. You must have a great rifle, and you MUST know the trajectory and range! That said, head shots at 50 yards were a piece of cake!
BB,
Thanks for the information on the shroud. I didn't mean to give you a hard time — I just want Crosman to come out with a slam dunk (for me that means a gun within tinkering range of perfect:)) so that I can get the PCP monkey off my back!
Fred,
I received my TKO Stage 5 Muzzle Break in 7.5". Top shelf all the way–excellent fit, the carbon fiber wrap looks great, and most importantly it truly does its job–large mouse fart quiet.
I'm ordering the trigger mods tomorrow and will let you know how they work.
Mr B.
I'm sure this will be controversial, however I take issue with a couple things BB said in this I'm sure this is going to be controversial, however I take issue with a couple things BB said in this blog post and in response to comments. If the block quote tag worked with this blog software it would make it a lot clearer what I'm responding too. And that's important because I want to make it clear what I disagree with and why. But oh well
"There was the camp who felt the new rifle would finally break through the price "barrier" and Crosman would be offering the world the first PCP rifle to retail for less than $5. Lord knows, we're all breaking under the strain of the $259 Discovery that can only be afforded by Daddy Warbucks and his Hollywood cronies!"
Except the Discovery isn't a $259 gun when you add in the cost of the charging equipment that a new shooter will have to buy in order to use the gun. When you factor that in, the Discovery is a $400 gun, the Katanna is probably a $540 gun (if you can buy the Crosman HPA pump by itself for $140), and the Marauder is a $640 gun. Granted you have to make a similar cost adjustment for any other pcp, but saying the Discovery is a $259 gun is slightly misleading.
As for the argument for a less expensive pcp… It all boils down to the fact that casual shooter isn't going to drop $400 on an airgun when they can get a more powerful .22LR rimfire rifle for $150 and spend the remaining $250 on over 5,000 rounds of .22LR ammunition. A casual shooter is going to spend no more than $100-$150 for an airgun. You might get them to tack an extra $100 onto that price for a pcps charging equipment if they feel they're getting something a step up from the budget guns if you can convince them that pcps are worth it because they're a good alternative to a .22LR for hunting and will save them money on ammo. Its the fact that no PCP does this that forces casual shooters to chose either a rimfire or a budget airgun. And that's a shame.
"I have been listening to airgunners trash the Katana since before anyone knew what it was."
If that was aimed at the comments I made when you announced it in your blog, I wasn't trashing the gun. I'm sure its probably a great gun if what I've seen you, Jim Chapman, Paul Capella, etc… write about Crosman's previous pcps is any indication. I was expressing disappointment that people who can't afford to spend $400 or more on a pcp airgun once again got left out in the cold.
"And no, I absolutely WILL NOT cut it one bit of slack on the performance end, just because I am defending its right to exist. And that's something THEY can't stand!"
Good, I don't want you to cut the gun any slack on the testing. I want to know just what this gun can do so that if someone on Yahoo Answers asks if they should buy this gun I can give them a brief, informed answer and direct them to your blog so they can find out more about it.
More to the point I'm not saying this model gun shouldn't exist. Its not what I'd hoped for. But that doesn't mean jack concerning whether it should or should not exist.
"Now, how many times do you think anyone ever did that with a Daystate or a Theoben? Never!"
How far back are we going? I ask because if you go back to the early '80s there were probably a lot of people who made unflattering comments about Daystate guns. You're letting the fact that those companies have earned a reputation for building extremely high end guns over nearly 30 years blind you a bit. Crosman's just getting started turning out guns like this after years of turning out inexpensive springers, multi-pumps, and co2 guns. If they maintain their current high-quality of guns in time they'll have in the same reputation as Daystate with a whole lot bigger market share because their guns don't cost $1500+.
There's probably more I could say but I've hit the character limit, its almost 2AM and I'm tired, in more ways than one. So goodnight. And hopefully this doesn't come off as a rant.
Anonymous,
When Tom & I published "The Airgun Letter," I wrote an article about what people think is the limit airgunners would spend on guns. We rec'd letters from people who insisted that we should stop writing about "expensive" guns because airgunners as a whole just aren't going to spend more than $100 for an airgun. I picked that figure as an example…because we also got letters stating the same thing but with a value of $50, $150, $200, $250….But we also got letters stating that airgunners are, on the whole, much more sophisticated than firearm shooters, so we should stop writing about "trash" guns and start addressing all the wonderful guns that cost just a bit more but offer so much more in features and quality.
Do you see the problem? Everyone has their own limit of what's too much or what's not enough. It wasn't unusual for us to receive calls from people who insisted that they could buy whatever they wanted…and the more expensive, the better!
In fact, Tom has addressed the total cost of a PCP gun in other print articles, but you can't address everything all the time. If you wanted to buy a .22LR because it was cheaper than the Katana, then do so. Obviously, price and not airguns are the issue. However, you'll have to buy more expensive ammo, you'll have limited shooting venues and you'll be on the roles of the federal gov't because you bought a firearm. If price is NOT the only thing you care about, then the Discovery, Katana and Marauder are great choices.
Isn't that one of the things we all prize? We have a choice. Tom loves guns…airguns and firearms. He loves to shoot them, handle them, write about them…everything. Each gun has its good & bad points. While you don't agree with many/most of the good points he's making, others may. That's because we're all looking at things through different-colored glasses. If I want a PCP, then I have to price out the total kit. Without knowing which gun I want, I can only price out the adapters and the pump and/or scuba tank. I subtract that from the amount of total cash I have to spend and that's what I've got left for a gun. Until the Discovery hit the streets, I had no options. Now, I have the Discovery & am enamored with PCPs. What's my next one? I have a budget but don't need to buy the supporting equipment so my only expense is the gun. The Marauder may be out of my price range, but the Katana just barely squeaks in under the wire.
See where I'm going with this? Your reference is not necessarily mine. We present products, ideas & random thoughts in this blog because of the basic rule: never TELL the other guy what he wants or needs. In fact, that's a basic rule of sales: Never guess what someone else can afford or what they can/can't buy.
Like you, I hope this doesn't come across as a rant. I've probably written way too many words to express my simple thoughts…but that's par for the course!
Edith
Edith!
Bravo! And don’t forget you now CAN’T buy .22 lr ammo for ANY price for some inexplicable reason!! Some say that it is a government conspiracy and they are buying up all .22 lr ammo? Dunno, just know I can’t find any for any price any where!
In the meantime, I CAN buy CHP .22 ammo inexpensively at Wal Mart and shoot it all day long if I please! AND use same ammo to humanely do one shot kills to the head on squirrels up to 50 yards if I please!
So yeah, I have ~$800 in my custom multi shot Disco, but what the heck! I am 69 years old and might as well have some fun before I go out, hopefully at >100 yo and with a bang!
It boils down to "tools for the job".
Firearms, springers, co2, and PCP all have their place. Factors that each individual is considering are many fold.
Having choice and a range of price options is at the heart of a good product line and healthy competing for that share.
If the Katana is a dud then it will be pulled from the market.
The Marauder is definitely on my wish list but the cost of owning one has put me off. My springer delivers the same power without the extra equipment and its always ready to shoot. It needs more technique, yes, but that helps me shoot firearms more effectively when I manage to get range time (infrequently).
G.
Anonymous,
Well thought out and well presented perspective. Didn't come across as a "rant" and if it's controversial with some so be it. I see your points.
A couple of observations if I may. You said, "A casual shooter is going to spend no more than $100-$150 for an airgun." Not sure what your definition of "casual shooter" is but I define that person as someone that doesn't attend any one of the numerous competitions for airguns (FT, running boar, benchrest, hunter class, etc.) but would rather plink or target shoot in his backyard. If this definition is close to yours then you have described the majority of passionate airgunners. VERY common for that casual shooter to have started out with an inexpensive pump gun, springer or CO2 and got hooked on being able to walk out the back door and start shooting, legally, for less than a penny a shot in most cases. VERY common for many shooters to graduate to guns that cost well over $150.00 and then send them out to get tuned.
You also said, "As for the argument for a less expensive pcp… It all boils down to the fact that casual shooter isn't going to drop $400 on an airgun when they can get a more powerful .22LR rimfire rifle for $150 and spend the remaining $250 on over 5,000 rounds of .22LR ammunition." The significant reasons many of us spend more on an airgun vs. a 22 LR (in your example) is that airguns are legal to shoot in many places that rimfires/centerfires aren't, airguns are quieter, airguns are cheaper to shoot, easier to keep clean, easier to contain the shot downrange and you don't have to drive to the range or your favorite hunting spot to enjoy a shooting session.
In closing I would suggest that you don't try a higher end gun that's accurate, quiet, has a great trigger and excellent resale value since you'll get hooked like many of us and will want to buy and try another. Just trying to save you money.
kevin
I have been enjoying these comments about the Katana very much. I admit, as some of you have also expressed, that this gun has struck a deep nerve like no other gun I've read about in the last year or two of my experience, without even being sold, seen or tested. How cool is that? What that tells me is that there IS, I repeat, THERE IS, a very sophisticated customer base out there who know what a good air rifle should be.
I also was able to identify why I felt the way I did about the Katana beings that I, myself, am in a serious relationship with a Marauder. I sat down and examined my feelings and talked out why I responded to the Katana the way I did for a long time. There were several people who left the room as I did this and some who reached for their cell phones because there is something unsettling about someone sitting and talking to ones self especially about a gun.
Anyway, I know now why I reacted the way I did…I am disappointed that the Crosman company did not give me any reason to forsake the Marauder for the Katana. I am disappointed that I was not their market target and they did this intentionally even though it was a reasonable thing to do.
I can't for the life of me understand why I want to be their market target either. Why, when I have such an exceptional air rifle, do I want to replace it? Why, when I have a rifle that hits where it's pointed, do I think it can be improved?
I would like to sit down and talk this out some more but some of the people who left the room have been replaced by people wearing white coats and carrying some kind of item with a lot of straps on it. I'd better go.
Word verification: unroxsa. That's either the disease I have or the medication I need to take for it.
-Chuck
Kevin and Edith I'm glad it didn't come across as a rant, especially since I was tired when I posted it. There are a couple things you said I'd like to reply to if I may. As before I mean no offense. And I'm going to have to break the reply into 2 parts to fit the character limit (because I'm kinda wordy).
"The significant reasons many of us spend more on an airgun vs. a 22 LR (in your example) is that airguns are legal to shoot in many places that rimfires/centerfires aren't"
That's probably not as true as you'd like to believe. Almost all incorporated areas have local ordinances against discharging a firearm. Often these ordinances include a legal definition of a firearm that is extremely different from how a normal person would define the term. For example, in my town the definition recently became common knowledge because of a discussion about allowing urban deer-hunting. In order to do that the city would have to amend its definition. Currently it defines a firearm as any device that discharges a projectile/bolt/arrow, whether powered by chemical propellants, air, or mechanical means. In effect, firearms, airguns, and archery equipment are all covered by the same ordinance prohibiting the discharge of "firearms" inside city limits. From what I've been able to find out because of Yahoo Answers (YA!) questions where people ask about shooting in their backyards, many incorporated areas define firearms this way. Those that don't often leave it to the discretion of the responding officer in the event of a complaint. So if you meant your comment in the sense you can shoot in a backyard in a city/town/village, I hope you've had a very good, local attorney familiar with the gun laws in your area look over any local ordinances before you do it and/or checked with the local police. Otherwise you run the risk of police showing up if someone complains. As for unincorporated areas… In unincorporated suburban areas its probably legal to shoot anything (as long as there is no local/county ordinance). Airguns are safer there in that they have less power and require less work to build a safe backstop, but… As for rural areas… Odds are that there it doesn't matter if you're shooting a Daisy 880, a .577 T-Rex, or anything in between.
"airguns are cheaper to shoot"
That's only really true for .177 caliber airguns, where you can buy inexpensive pellets for around $.01 per shot. A friend of mine and I worked out that the cost for most .22 caliber pellets runs right around $.02-$.03 per shot (before you add in the cost of shipping and taxes) with higher quality pellets being more the more expensive and the pellets you can find in local stores being the more expensive. Which is virtually identical to the cost of inexpensive .22LR rounds. The Federal .22 Champion load for example retails for $1.47 for 50 rounds, or $.0294 per shot before taxes. Even CCI Mini-Mags are comparable to something like .22 caliber Eun Jin pellets at around $.05-$.06 per shot.
Pt. 2:
"Not sure what your definition of "casual shooter" is but I define that person as someone that doesn't attend any one of the numerous competitions for airguns (FT, running boar, benchrest, hunter class, etc.) but would rather plink or target shoot in his backyard. If this definition is close to yours then you have described the majority of passionate airgunners."
Our definitions are pretty close, though I'd add that the majority of casual airgun shooters are probably under 20 years old (since its been my experience that many shooters switch to firearms at least some of the time when they're old enough to buy them), and probably don't even know that there are numerous competitions for airguns.
"See where I'm going with this? Your reference is not necessarily mine. We present products, ideas & random thoughts in this blog because of the basic rule: never TELL the other guy what he wants or needs. In fact, that's a basic rule of sales: Never guess what someone else can afford or what they can/can't buy."
I understand your point about differing points of reference and why you cover such a broad range of items on the blog. And I didn't intend to imply guns like the Discovery or Katana aren't good options or worth-while for those who can afford them. I'm simply saying that almost all the airgun questions I see on YA!, particularly those that are clearly from younger shooters/new shooters/etc…, have a price limit of no more than $200. That includes the questions that begin with something like "I have a squirrel that's getting into my bird-feeder. I want to get rid of him, what's the best airgun for the job for under $100/$150/$200?" Additionally almost every time we get one of those rare questions where someone doesn't include a price (and often when they do include the lower price) someone responding makes the same point that I made earlier about the cost of a rimfire rifle vs. the cost of airguns. Hence my point about pcps having a price-barrier that hinders their adoption in the US. That's simply where I was going with that.
For what its worth, personally I shoot airguns because in .177 caliber they're cheaper and because I don't have to spend 30-minutes to an hour cleaning them after shooting. That last makes them more convenient. (Or maybe it just makes me lazy…) I understand the other advantages for airguns since I'm one of several people on YA! who fields airgun questions on a regular basis and has to counter the ignorance of many of the folks there), I just am discouraged because it seems that all innovation/new product releases have switched to high-end guns ignoring the folks who would have to save up for 2-3 years for something like a Discovery, Katana, NPSS, Marauder…
Anonymous that answers comments on YA!
You make some good points.
I especially like the point that alludes to "checking your local laws and ordinances" before shooting anything whether it's on your property or others.
I'm in Colorado and for the most part we are gun friendly. Nonetheless, we have State laws and local ordinances (even in our unincorporated areas) that govern firearms AND airguns. With few exceptions we are allowed to shoot airguns on our property as long as the pellet does not leave the property (local laws, ordinances) and we do it in a safe manner (State law). "Safe manner" has been defined as having a back drop, bullet/pellet trap or some other device that can insure that the projectile does not leave your property. Discharging firearms in the City and even in surrounding unincorporated areas is prohibited unless there are life threatening circumstances. Everyone, not just airgunners should be aware of their State, local and county laws/ordinances. Good point.
Legally being able to shoot airguns in populated areas in Colorado is a great reason for us to own airguns. Firearms are not an option in the populated areas.
I still stand by my statement that airguns are cheaper to shoot than firearms. I agree with most of your comparison to firearm and pellet ammo. What isn't in your equation for cost comparison is gas + time to drive to a shooting area with your firearms, range fees, gun cleaning expense, time spent waiting for a lane to open and difference in cost of ammunition if you're shooting anything other than cheap .22 caliber rimfire. I'd also add a "cost factor" for inconvenience since this is the primary reason I don't shoot firearms much anymore (this could be debated so I left it out of my equation).
I agree that the price point of pcp's force many future airgunners to look towards other power plants. We're fortunate in the U.S.A. to have the cheapest pcp's on the planet now that Crosman has developed these 3 entry level pcp's. I never ceased to be amazed at the prices people must pay in places like England and New Zealand for American made guns like Crosman's.
It's unfortunate that no one has been able to design and manufacture an affordable airplane. I for one would like to get places faster without the hassles. Guess I'm relegated to continue to drive my truck. LOL! Forgive my pathetic analogy between "expensive" pcp's that do things faster and easier and other airgun power plants that can still get the job done but may take longer and require more effort.
Great discussion. Thank you.
kevin
Anonymous,
I enjoyed your viewpoint — thanks for taking the time to write it.
Kevin,
I see the point you are making with ammunition costs, but I'm not sure you need match grade .22LR to compete with pellets at 50 yards. What's a typical "good" group from an S410 or Marauder at that range?
BG_Farmer,
Did I say that you need match grade .22 LR ammo to compete with pellets at 50 yards? If I did, I take it back.
A typical 5 shot good group with the AA S410 at 50 yards is under 1/2" bench rested. I've seen many of my friends do that when they've come over and shot the gun for their first time. Maybe not their first 5 shots but within a magazine or two they can.
kevin
Kevin,
Thanks. Actually you didn't say "match grade", but I thought it:). What I was trying to determine is what grade of .22 ammo (thus price) would be comparable. 1/2 inch is pretty close to what a .22 can do with "decent" ammo and very respectable, so $0.05 a shot or more.
After I asked you the question, I went on to the Yellow and searched briefly and saw about the same thing from some of the more reliable contributors there also.
B.B.
I was curious if you've heard of &/or are familiar with Kueng or Kung air guns?
If so, what do you think about his .22 Sniper #002 a .22 cal break barrel rifle, his MAGNUM AIR PISTOL, & his CO2-powered pistol "Eleven"?
TheBBA
BBA,
Never heard of him.
B.B.
B.B.
He has a few guns that look promising, like his MAGNUM AIR PISTOL & his RIFLE #002, but currently only one for sale, which is his CO2-PISTOL ELEVEN, which looks nice but the other two are what caught my eye.
His MAGNUM AIR PISTOL
http://www.blueline-studios.com/kuengairguns.com/hypermagnum.html
And his RIFLE #002
http://www.blueline-studios.com/kuengairguns.com/gallery2.html
Unfortunately, these are not available.
TheBBA
BBA,
Okay, I saw this guy a few years back. I get several of these each year. Wonderful new guns that never quite make it.
They are interesting, but not worth blogging, as they never go anywhere. I used to get excited before I realized that these things are just time sinks. You will waste a lot of time and never get anywhere with them.
I look at all projects like this as butterflies emerging from cocoons. Until they fly, they should not be touched.
B.B.
BBA,
Okay, I saw this guy a few years back. I get several of these each year. Wonderful new guns that never quite make it.
They are interesting, but not worth blogging, as they never go anywhere. I used to get excited before I realized that these things are just time sinks. You will waste a lot of time and never get anywhere with them.
I look at all projects like this as butterflies emerging from cocoons. Until they fly, they should not be touched.
B.B.
Does anyone know if the Katana stock will fit on a disco? What about the barrel?
B.B.
Yeah, he does have that one CO2 pistol, the parts, & the exploding pellets available, which work pretty darn good, & while a couple of his guns look like they'd be pretty nice…
I read ya loud & clear. I'll bet there's a ton out there that will never become available. Just like you say… Time vacuums.
He even says it himself, that except the CO2 pistol,
"None of the prototype rifles shown below are for sale. We will not offer those anytime in in the future"
My bad. I won't post any more up, unless they ARE in production & currently available.
I can imagine how you felt the first few times you went through this. Kind of like watching a mother-in-law you don't like going over a cliff in your brand new Cadillac…. It's like "RIGHT ON! Oh crap!" LOL
Hey, at least maybe I can get a laugh from ya out of this eh? 😉
TheBBA
BBA,
I'm laughing.
B.B.
B.B.
I'm glad I could at least do that for you, with all the drama on the Katana.
(Pun intended. LOL)
Seriously though, I'm surprised on how much controversy there has been on this rifle already, considering how new it is, & I can't wait to see your finished report on it, because I really think Crosman has a winner on their hands with this gun.
(Read on, & I'll explain why I say that.)
Quite frankly, I'm happy to see Crosman giving the public more options on PCPs, & most importantly, a great PCP with a very low price in these tough times.
Although I'm confident that Crosman has good reasons for their decisions, which may be exactly for what I just said…
With all this controversy, I think that even if just for fun, that maybe creating a poll to see what the majority of people out there say they really want out of a PCP might be interesting.
Make a poll with a list of features, along with the ability for them to rate how high or low of importance on the features, & see what these people would emphasize what they really want out of a PCP.
This way we could see if there is a mass agreed opinion, or if it's just a few rogue people that want what THEY want.
(And I have a fix for that too, if that IS indeed the case. Just read on…)
Now I haven't had the time to read everything said about this gun, on both here AND the Yellow, so I'm going to go out on a limb here & say that I'm wondering if there actually WOULD be a mass agreed opinion, or if everyone just wants different things? Which is what I'm betting, & is why I propose this…
Put a poll up & let people answer the poll, in addition to allowing them to rate the importance of the features they want on a scale of 1-5 or something like that, & after it is all said & done…
I'm willing to bet, that now your stuck with a PCP that is considerably more expensive to both manufacture & sell to the mass market, than any of the other Crosman/Benjamin PCP's currently on the market.
And in regards to the people making all the noise… WOULD they, COULD they, actually afford it in this economy? Of course I'm talking about the masses. I'm sure there's a few lucky folks that the price isn't too big of a problem for them, but lets get real here.
We're in a serious repression that IS on the brink of a depression, & MOST people really can't afford one with everything they want in it right now.
Which if the latter IS the case, & I think it is… Then that would simply prove what I think, which is that Crosman is right on track, & doing exactly the right thing at the right time!
They're making an AFFORDABLE PCP, which is what I'm pretty darn confident, is something that is just what the doctor ordered right now, especially with this economy!
The only other thing I would suggest, is to go ahead & actually create that poll, & also put a "Build your own" PCP with the most wanted features in the poll, in Crosman's Custom Store, (just like they did with the 2250 pistol), & let people add on what ever features they can personally afford.
I'm willing to bet that Crosman would sell a LOT more Katana's than the custom ones!
Now I'm not trying to bash are readers & say nobody can afford a really nice PCP, I'm just saying that everyone should look at this realistically & realize that maybe Crosman is actually on to something with this gun, & there couldn't be a better time for it, & it's price point right now.
Just my $.02 but I'll bet I'm right.
What do you think?
TheBBA
BBA,
The poll sounds interesting, but as you seem to indicate, people may not actually act the same as they say they will. So we would know what they say they want, but not what they would really buy.
Still, a poll sounds interesting. I'll look into it.
B.B.
BBA,
I like the poll idea if for no other reason than to see what is really important to the majority of shooters.
On your affordability point: I believe that the Katana is too highly priced to be considered an affordable gun for anyone feeling the pinch of a recession. If you're really crunched, you can't afford to spend over $500 for a gun and NECESSARY accessories, i.e. pump. These people may be very satisfied with the Discovery if they could afford the $400 price tag even.
Discovery w/Pump – $400
Katana w/pump – $528
Marauder w/pump – $678
The Marauder is only $150 more than the Katana and is a better gun! $150 is hardly a hardship for someone who can come up with the $528 spare cash in this economy.
The Discovery, a very fine gun, so I hear, is $278 cheaper than a Marauder but still a lot of money for someone suffering from the economy. Why doesn't it satisfy these cash strapped air gunners?
My bottom line position is that if someone can afford to spend $528 (Katana) for an air rifle or even $400 (Discovery) they're NOT suffering from the economy, so take that parameter out of the equation and buy the Marauder.
Ooooops! I'm coming on way too strong here.
-Chuck
Chuck,
You might as well price the pcp guns with a BIG 4500 psi cf tank, because like me, most will rapidly tire of pumping if you shoot much!
I have about $400 in my cf tank and the hookups needed to charge my pcp guns! Would have been more, except I started small with the tank, and got extremely lucky and traded my small ~21 cu ft 4500 psi tank even up for a 88 cu ft 4500 psi tank several years down the line!
But with that aside, I can now own any pcp I can afford to buy with out any other costs except refilling the air tank about every 2 months! And that is only $5 at this time!
B.B.
I hope you do look into it, because I think it would be interesting to see what they say. But I will agree with what you said about… "people may not actually act the same as they say they will. So we would know what they say they want, but not what they would really buy." I think that's probably very true.
That's why I added the part about a "Custom Shop" for PCPs, as it would probably be the only real way to find out for sure, but I doubt that will come into play anytime soon if ever, even though I'd love to see one. But for now, I think a poll would still be interesting.
In any case, I think that there is a pretty good selection out there for people wanting PCPs. The only thing missing that I personally would like, make that LOVE to see… is a big bore semi-auto PCP! I'm surprised that nobody has come out with one yet. Can you imagine a .45 cal. semi-auto PCP? Now THAT would be something!
The reason I'd like to see a .45 cal. PCP, is because my Sam Yang 909S isn't easy to reload quickly for a follow up shot if I had a flyer hitting with a poor shot placement, & the animal was still capable of taking off, it would be nice to have the ability to have a quick follow up shot available.
Now maybe safety is a concern, & is why one hasn't been produced yet. If that's the case, why couldn't they make one with an auto safety that is placed in the same location where the safety is on an RWS 850 Magnum. (Right behind & below the rear sight.) Then you could quickly & easily press it with your thumb & have an immediate follow up shot available. Also maybe add an override switch, to switch the auto safety off, so you could fire it in true semi-auto fashion. The gun could actually have two safeties. One by the trigger as a master override, & then the one for the thumb when used in semi- auto mode. Then you'd have a pretty safe semi-auto big bore PCP.
What do you think?
TheBBA
CJr,
I hear ya, but if someone is feeling the crunch THAT hard, I doubt they'd be spending their money on a PCP period. But for those who CAN buy one & are looking for a value to options ratio… I think the Katana is good in that aspect when we're talking about price.
The bottom line, is that Crosman/Benjamin HAS given the buyer another option that is less than the $700.00 – $2,000.00 range. Especially if they already have another PCP with a way to fill it & don't need a pump, like a lot of people do.
If they didn't, than I'm sure they'd probably get the Disco instead.
You said…
"The Marauder is only $150 more than the Katana and is a better gun! $150 is hardly a hardship for someone who can come up with the $528 spare cash in this economy.
The Discovery, a very fine gun, so I hear, is $278 cheaper than a Marauder but still a lot of money for someone suffering from the economy. Why doesn't it satisfy these cash strapped air gunners?
My bottom line position is that if someone can afford to spend $528 (Katana) for an air rifle or even $400 (Discovery) they're NOT suffering from the economy, so take that parameter out of the equation and buy the Marauder."
I'm not arguing that. All I'm saying, is that different people have different taste & want's in their airgun, & Crosman/Benjamin is giving them more options at a reasonable price.
Look at how many PCPs are well over $700.00 or even $1,000.00!
Maybe I should have emphasized that my point was MORE OPTIONS in PCPs at a reasonable price. 😉
TheBBA
CJr,
I hear ya, but if someone is feeling the crunch THAT hard, I doubt they'd be spending their money on a PCP period. But for those who CAN buy one & are looking for a value to options ratio… I think the Katana is good in that aspect when we're talking about price.
The bottom line, is that Crosman/Benjamin HAS given the buyer another option that is less than the $700.00 – $2,000.00 range. Especially if they already have another PCP with a way to fill it & don't need a pump, like a lot of people do.
If they didn't, than I'm sure they'd probably get the Disco instead.
You said…
"The Marauder is only $150 more than the Katana and is a better gun! $150 is hardly a hardship for someone who can come up with the $528 spare cash in this economy.
The Discovery, a very fine gun, so I hear, is $278 cheaper than a Marauder but still a lot of money for someone suffering from the economy. Why doesn't it satisfy these cash strapped air gunners?
My bottom line position is that if someone can afford to spend $528 (Katana) for an air rifle or even $400 (Discovery) they're NOT suffering from the economy, so take that parameter out of the equation and buy the Marauder."
I'm not arguing that. All I'm saying, is that different people have different taste & want's in their airgun, & Crosman/Benjamin is giving them more options at a reasonable price.
Look at how many PCPs are well over $700.00 or even $1,000.00!
Maybe I should have emphasized that my point was MORE OPTIONS in PCPs at a reasonable price. 😉
TheBBA
BBA,
There already is a big bore semi-auto. In fact, it's a select-fire rifle, so it's full-auto too.
Jeff Castleman has made them for over a decade. They are very involved and get out of order real easy, but they have
been demonstrated in full-auto, and I have seen one shoot semi-auto many times at the LASSO shoot.
You can see it shoot, too, in my April, 2008 article about the 2007 LASSO shoot. It's
there in both stills and video.
/article/Big_bore_shoot_April_2008/48
B.B.
BBA,
I'm glad you responded to my comment. I was concerned I may have come on too strong and possibly alienated you. I apologize for that. Your "more choices for the buyer" point, if I may paraphrase, is well taken. Plus, I now think that may be the marketing strategy for the Katana.
Thanks for not flaming my unintentional "flame" 🙂
-Chuck
B.B.
OK, now that is just cruel! LOL
With my user name being "The Big Bore Addict" HOW can you tell me about Cattleman's guns when I Googled till my fingers bled & I can't find out how or where to get one.
Does he sell them, & if so, where & how can I contact him to get one?
Seriously… That is just too cool. I gotta have one! 😉
Also, are the NewMatics MP-16's available to buy?
That's another one I'd REALLY like to have.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again,
TheBBA
B.B.
Forgive my typo. I meant Castleman, not Cattleman, & yes I did Google Castleman, but still couldn't find anything.
TheBBA
Hi Chuck,
No apology necessary. I understood where you were coming from, & didn't take it as a flame. You were just trying to make a point.
I too think that, that may be their marketing strategy for the Katana, & that was what I was saying in a round about way, in addition to the fact that different people want different features in their guns, & while they may not want the least expensive one, they may also not need all the bells & whistles of the higher priced guns, so the Katana definitely has it's place in the market. 😉
TheBBA
So this will run on CO2 also? At the same velocity? How does that work, and what other equipment is required besides the tank?
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ahh. Okay. Thanks!
The descriptions on the Katana page were pretty vague, there's nothing on the Crosman website that I could find, and there didn't seem to be any info about the Katana running on CO2 in this blog post or in any of the comments.
I'm not sure that I want to dive right into the PCP world all at once. Have the money for a scuba tank and all that, but there's probably better things for me to put that money toward.
Trying to decide between the Katana and a QB79.
Suburban
I would go with the Katana. It will cost you a good bit more, but is more versatile in that it is dual fuel, and you can buy a SCBA tank or pump later on.
I have no experience with the Katana, but own both a Benjamin Discovery and a Benjamin Marauder. They are both excellent guns, very accurate and are both dual fuel as well. The Katana sits in the middle of this line, but you probably know that.
Also you will have a 1 year warranty from a company with excellent customer service, Crosman Corporation. If you have a problem, they will take care of it.
Interestingly, the QB79 is a variant of the QB78, which is a near carbon copy of the Crosman 160/167 rifle. I think it's a sign Suburban.