Diana 27 – Part 5

by B.B. Pelletier

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4

This rifle is the .177 Diana model 27 I found at last October’s Roanoke airgun show. In the last report, I showed you how to make a leather breech seal, which I did because the one that was in the gun had deteriorated. I cut that seal flush with the breech face, and Vince took me to task for that. So I agreed to install an o-ring breech seal with a thin shim behind it and test it for you to see how it stacked up. Today is that test.

Installing the new seal
Before the new one could go in, the old one had to come out. This time the leather was fresh, so I got the seal out in one piece. I can reinstall it after this test, if I want to.

Vince sent me several o-rings and several thin steel shims to use as the new breech seal. He guessed that one shim was best, but told me what the critical dimensions were in case I wanted to check. I didn’t check because the arrangement he suggested looked so good after it was installed, which took all of 15 seconds. Easiest airgun job I ever did. Four times faster than taking out the leather seal.


The new seal stands proud of the breech face just a little.

Eley Wasp pellets
Before
With the new leather seal, I got two distinct velocity ranges with Wasps. The faster range was from 588 f.p.s. to 620 f.p.s. The slower range was from 242 f.p.s. to 269 f.p.s.

After
With Vince’s seal, there was only one velocity range. The average was 598 f.p.s., and the range was from 588 f.p.s., to 612 f.p.s. Although the velocity remained about the same as it was with the new leather seal, the absence of the lower range means the breech was sealing perfectly all the time.

RWS Basic pellets
Before
With the new leather seal, RWS Basics gave an average of 658 f.p.s., with a spread from 650 f.p.s. to 666 f.p.s.

After
With Vince’s seal the average was 643 f.p.s. f.p.s. with Basics, and the range was from 638 f.p.s. to 651 f.p.s. So, the average slipped just a little and the spread tightened up.

Crosman Premier 7.9-grain pellets
Before
With the new leather seal, Crosman Premier 7.9-gain pellets averaged 588 f.p.s. The spread was from 577 f.p.s. to 595 f.p.s.

After
With Vince’s seal, the average was 605 f.p.s., and the range was from 602 f.p.s. to 614 f.p.s. So, the average velocity improved a little and the spread also tightened.

RWS Superdome pellets
Before
The new leather seal averaged 588 f.p.s. with RWS Superdomes. The spread was from 582 f.p.s. to 601 f.p.s.

After
With Vince’s seal, the average was 586 f.p.s. and the range was from 577 f.p.s., to 596 f.p.s. So, the average was nearly the same and the spread tightened up.

What have I learned?
Vince’s synthetic seal works measurably better than my new leather seal on this Diana 27. There’s no huge jump in velocity, but the stability improves with every pellet I tried. And the performance with Eley Wasps was most dramatic.

You may remember that I’d promised to tune this gun for you so you can see the insides of a different springer. With Vince’s breech seal, I feel more confident that the results of that tuneup will be under better control than they would have been with the new leather breech seal.

I must also admit that Vince’s seal leaks less air than my leather one. That’s evident from the stability improvement. So, I’ll reverse my decision to put the leather seal back in the gun when this report is finished. In fact, I’m thinking that I should also replace the leather seal in my .22 caliber model 27.

68 Responses to “Diana 27 – Part 5”

  • Anonymous Says:

    BB,

    OT, I am sorry.

    I came upon a website http://www.airventuri.com. I noticed it has the same layout as pyramydair.com. Are they the connected in some manner?

    Just wondering sir.

    Abe

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Abe,

    That is a wholesale site for dealers.

    B.B.

  • ajvenom Says:

    I’ve always wondered about this sight too:

    http://www.airgun-express.com

    Although, now it just sends you to PA along with http://www.pyramidair.com.

    Someday we’ll just type the word “airgun” into our online encyclopedias and just the word Pyramyd Air will come up too. lol!!!

    OK seriously my 953 with the challenger sight is hitting the 10 spot nearly all the time at 10M with some practice. 6mm c-t-c or less, but not as good the 4×32 AO scope. I’ve noticed I’ve had a hard time shooting with both eyes open, so I may try a patch on one eye. Ahhrrrg, look out for the ahhhrrrggunnning piraaate. he ho hum.

  • ajvenom Says:

    nooooooooooooooooooooo

    MRSP prices? I’m guessing I won’t be ordering from them.

  • ajvenom Says:

    Hey BB, How about making a small video on the artillary hold that you use when shooting a springer?

    Now that could really help spring airgun shooters.

  • Ed Pikor Says:

    B.B.

    Have you abandoned further testing of your Career Infinity, or did I just miss it?

    I’m very curious how it would fare with your usual accuracy testing and pellet selections.

    Ed

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Ed,

    No, the Infinity accuracy test is still to come.

    B.B.

  • Mr B. Says:

    Happy Presidents’ Day!

    B.B.,

    You’ve got me thinking again on the way of the leather seal. A Zen thing to my brain. I need the wise old gray bearded man sitting in a moutain top cave to explain it to me.

    The o-ring is easy. The HPA hits that little circle and trys to push it out of way. However, it is in the groove and just won’t move.

    The leather seal is flush and I don’t see how there is anything for the air to push against. If the leather stood proud would there be such a range between the high and low fps in your example here?

    I’ve asked this question about the leather seal before, but the answer, HPA can do weird things, didn’t clear up my thinking on this matter. Maybe Herb, with his keen analitical mind has the answer that will make sense to my poor old brain.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    ajvenom,

    I put the Artillery Hold video in the que.

    B.B.

  • kevin Says:

    B.B.,

    This is very, very interesting to me.

    The dramatic tightening of the velocity spread has to translate into better accuracy. I can’t wait for your accuracy test to see if this is the case.

    If it does result in better accuracy I can’t help but speculate about the number of airgunners out there that aren’t aware of their worn breech seal and are confounded by a slippage in accuracy. Maybe your accuracy test won’t confirm my speculation but it’s a fascinating journey you’re taking us on that applies to all of us.

    kevin

  • twotalon Says:

    B.B.
    I know that even when the breech seal sticks up a little it does not always seal well. That’s a lot of pressure to hold back, and it takes a seriously tight fit to keep it from leaking.
    I was surprised how much shimming it took on a Beeman I have to stop the leak. Almost looks like the o-ring is about to fall out, but that is what it took (along with a little rubber cement to make sute that it did not fall out).

    twotalon

  • Vince Says:

    BB, that seal protrusion still looks a bit shallow. Did you try shimming it out a little more?

    In any event that O-ring seems to fit your gun very well, as it does on the 34′s and 350. Not bad considering the price – $1.72 for a bag of 100 from Mcmaster! It’s a #109, Buna-N, Shore A durometer of 70.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Vince,

    No, I didn’t try shimming the seal more, but I will. I will report on it in the new accuracy test that Kevin has convinced me to do, but if the difference is dramatic, I will do a special report on it all by itself.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    BB,
    Sorry, yes I am looking for a cheap reloading press.
    Shadow express dude

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    SED,

    The best cheap press is used. I would watch Ebay and the gun shows for one.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    RE: Height of seal above surface

    I’d take seal out, and stick an automotive feeler gauge in breech separation. O-ring has to stick up a little more that that. Maybe o-ring should hold breech open by an extra 0.002 inch? That way wouldn’t the O-ring be under significant compression?

    From the consistency of the velocity numbers, it would seem that the height now is pretty good.

    Herb

  • Anonymous Says:

    RE: Airgun Express

    27 Nov 2008 by BB Pelletier

    “AGE is short for Airgun Express – an airgun dealer that Pyramyd Air bought out a couple years ago…”

    Trying to link to old Airgun Express website would redirect you to PA. I would have thrown up a window saying that the PA bought out Airgun Express and that the customer will be redirected to PA. Also that customer should update their link.

    Herb

  • jon neet Says:

    Ajvenom, I Have a question about the Daisy 953 rifle. I’ve heard they are very accurate at 10 meters. What happens at 25 yards? Does the accuracy hold at that distance, or does the slower velocity cause drastically larger groups? I guess I’m asking-is the 953 only good at close ranges? I’m not talking about knock down power here-just group size.

    Thanks, Jon

  • BobC Says:

    B.B.,

    When I take up the slack between the first and second stage on my rifle, the trigger will stay where I relaxed the pull. Is this good or bad, and is this a sign of a good or bad trigger?

    I shoot the Remington Genesis, and have over 5000 rounds through it.

    Also, do you know anything about a pistol called Mondial Oklahoma?

    Thanks,

    BobC NJ

  • Dr. G. Says:

    … ..Re.:…. Micro-Meter Tank

    B.B.,

    I used my wonderful Air Force pump to pump that Micro-Meter tank to 3600, as I was very curious to see to what pressure I could comfortably pump. I had not used the tank much (preferring CO2 for lower power/quieter use) and figured it was expendable if by overpumping I rendered it useless.

    I was very pleasantly surprised that it worked (using my .25 Condor and 31 gr Kodiaks) and even more surprised when I noted that the first 50 shots yielded a very strong and quiet 580 fps down to 530 fps at 10 meters (Avg. 21 ft./lbs). The next 20 shots yielded accuracy at 30 yards outdoors of 5-shot groups of 5/8″ with no drop of POI.

    My questions are: How high can I pump the MicroMeter Tank safely (for the tank equipment, not for my back)?

    About how many shots can one usually expect with a .22 Condor using the MicroMeter tank and 31 grain Kodiaks before the muzzle velocity falls below 500 fps (I am asking the question this way because I guess that you have a lot more familiarity with .22 specs than .25 specs) if the tank starts at 3000? …….And same question, with the tank starting at 3800? ……If you don’t know, please give your best estimate even if it is just an educated guess – thanx.

    Although the Air Force pump is rated to 3600 psi, can I safely push it to 3800 or will that shorten its life?

    What pump can I safely pump to 3800 psi (Hill pump?) ?

    For a number of reasons I use only pumps, and that is in part why I am asking these questions. I also would be surprised if some of the readers don’t have some of these same questions.

    Thank you.

    - Dr. G.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Bob C.,

    I just got this comment from another reader. The answer is it’s a bad trigger. The return spring should always return the bade when you relax your trigger finger.

    On some rifles, this can actually mean that the trigger has been partially pulled and now is less safe than before.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    BB,

    Finally received the AirForce Diopter rear sight for my Daisy 853c.

    It took less than 3 minutes to install and I was hitting the bullseye in ten.

    Thank you so much for your recommendation. Everything you said about it in your blog is TRUE!!

    Now I do not have to dread the thought of adjusting the sights.

    I would recommend it to all who have the Daisy 853 rifle.

    Thanks again,
    Stingray

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Dr. G.,

    It never ends! Just when I think I have finally answered all the questions that can possibly be asked about an AirForce gun, someone dreams up a new one.

    Your AirForce pump is rated to 3600 psi. There is no other hand pump on the market rated that high. So the answer to your first question is you have gone as far as you can go.

    What you probably want to know but did not ask is when will the safety burst disk let go. The short answer is I don’t know, but even if I did I would not answer it, because that would be an open invitation for people to see if I was right.

    As for the second question, that sounds like an excellent project for you to conduct and report back on. I do know that when held to the warranted pressure of 3,000 psi the MicroMeter tank doesn’t give as many shots as we once thought it might.

    I did some testing of the MicroMeter tank that is reported here:

    http://www.airforceairguns.com/webarticles.html

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    On some guns over shimming of the breach seal can cause verticle stringing of groups. I have to test and adjust, test adjust, ect. This is what I have seed on Diana’s and FWB’s I’ve worked on. Some guns need a prowd seal ie HW’s but others need it low to avoid bad groups.

    KevinTK

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Stingray,

    Thank you for that feedback! I am forwarding your report to Pyramyd Air, so they will know that it works.

    B.B.

  • DB Says:

    B.B. & Vince,
    Would shimming improve the performance of the leather seal?

    Since it is such a quick change maybe it too should be tested before you conclude the O-ring is really better.

    DB

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    BB,
    I think how much to let the seal protrude would depend on the clearance and coplanarity of the breech face and the compressability of the rubber. I’ll dissent and say yours looks about right, and the performance consistency backs it up.

    Vince,
    I’m curious about how long fps gains from ultra-tight breech seals hold up. It would seem that the tighter you squeeze the seal, the more wear it incurs, so that fairly soon the leakage will come out to about the same as if you just make it a reasonable seal. Otherwise, won’t you be replacing seals fairly often, as in every time you lose 10fps? Have you done a long term test of shimmed seals to see how durable the improvement is?

    DB,
    Good point.

  • twotalon Says:

    BG Farmer
    I expect the excess height of the seal in my Beeman to wear down to fit better than it does now….
    The breech does not snap tight metal to metal yet…
    A compression/wear pattern should set in untill the breech starts locking right.
    Could you call this a “breaking in” period? Once it starts fitting good it should last a long time with a dab of lube once in a while. When warmer weather gets here will see if a few hundred shots will break it in.
    Really love the precision fit of chinese airgun parts…..NOT!

    twotalon

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    DB,

    Okay, you got me!

    Part 6 will be an exhaustive test of more shimming of both the synthetic and leather breech seals.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Jon Neet
    My scoped 953 shot from a rest with CPHP does one-holers at 10 yds.and opens up to a cloverleaf of @.25-.35 on a calm day.On days with more than 15 mph winds forget it.not enough juice left to keep the pellets from being pushed 1 inch or more to the side.Pellets also climb or drop (mostly drop)depending on wind dir.
    Hope this helps
    JTinAL

    P.S rain also causes noticeable pellet drop

  • Michael Says:

    Noticed that Pyramyd Air increased the price of the Crosman 2300S by $50 overnight. He who hesitates is lost!

  • Anonymous Says:

    OOOPS
    on the post above
    meant to say cloverleaf at 25yds.
    wind and rain damage is also 25yds.
    sorry for any confusion.
    JTinAL

  • Vince Says:

    BG-Farmer, a “reasonable seal” doesn’t leak. Any more preload than necessary to keep it from leaking could cause the seal to either take a compression set prematurely or get torn up on the transfer port.

    So when a seal gets shimmed to the point of no leakage it’s right where it should be. If it does leak from the factory – as many Diana breakbarrels seem to – there’s something wrong.

    There are other guns I’ve tried that don’t benefit at all from shimming the seals outward. Gamo’s, for instance, don’t generally need it from what I’ve seen.

    So yes, an ‘ultra-tight’ breech seal will not last as long, but there’s absolutely no reason to make them ‘ultra-tight’. I don’t think that was ever suggested. It can also screw up accuracy because it can prevent the breech from closing all the way, forcing an inconsistent amount of barrel droop.

  • Vince Says:

    KevinTK, the amount of seal protrusion needed depends on the pressures involved and the clearances between the breech face and the mating surface on the compression tube. As easy way to check this on breakbarrels is to to pop out the seal, stick a piece of electrical solder (.030-.060) into the opening and close the breech. Make sure that it’s really closed all the way. Open it up, take the solder out, and measure the squished areas. And you’ve got your clearances.

    At this point I’m sensing that the seal protrusion needs to be .010-.020″ more than the GREATEST clearance (the faces may not be parallel), but I’ve not yet done enough trial-and-error to really nail it down.

  • ChosenClay Says:

    Wayne,
    Thank you for the very generous offer
    of $200 credit to PA,but I am going
    to have to decline,because I really
    don’t want my guns on lean.I have
    been thinking a lot about starting
    a business so I can buy air guns myself.
    Thank you again for the offer and the challenge and I am looking forward to getting some guns from PA soon.
    Ian

  • Felice Luftschein Says:

    Vince, I’d also add the OD and ID of the circular breech groove, and/or the volume of that space vs the volume of the rubber in the o-ring. You (or rather I) could probably go crazy figuring out all the variables. A square section o-ring will fill that space more than a round section ring. Not that it may matter, depending.
    Nick

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Vince,

    Thanks for the explanation. I admit that I did get the impression you were shimming them until they squealed, but that was just my impression, no offence intended. I’m still doubtful that any seal is going to be 100% airtight for long in that application, but there’s no reason not to get it right to start with, and I think your procedure sounds reasonable (re: the solder guage). Finally, let’s caution people not to eat solder, as it contains lead:).

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Ian,

    I want to congratulate you on a good decision. Wayne had the best of intentions and was trying to prevent you from making a mistake (selling the M1′s) that you might later regret, but in a case like yours, you’re better off disciplining yourself to work for and (the worst part) wait for something you want. Our country is in a mess right now, in large part because some people never learned that lesson. You might miss a little bit of shooting, but you’ll have a leg up on the rest of life.

    PS: In some ways you can be happy the wealth of jobs available to me as a kid are no longer consider humane or safe:).

  • Anonymous Says:

    can any of the rws rifles outshoot a discovery? If so, what ones? thanks

  • ChosenClay Says:

    I’m saving my money for a RWS 34 panther

    Ian:)

  • Bob from Oz Says:

    G’day BB/Vince

    Would pressurising the barrel with compressed air from the crown allow the seal to be tested?

    Guess you would need a tyre valve and a rubber/nylon sealed sleeve to see if pressure was maintained.

    Cheers Bob

  • UW Hunter Says:

    Ian,

    It is very refreshing to hear a kid of you age willing and motivated to work for what you want. You seem to be a very responsible and intelligent person. I feel like the general population in this country is getting dumber every day, and it is great to see a 12 year old kid able to communicate with adults, as an adult, and seek advice. I really hope that you will continue to post on this blog and I wish you the best of luck. On a lighter note, I have an RWS Panther and agree that it is a great spring gun. I really think you will love the Panther and it is worth saving up for. I also think you made the right move keeping your M1s. I may sell one of them, but I would keep one for collector value. As long as you don’t use it and you store it properly, they will only grow in value. Anyway, I just wanted to say that I really appreciate people like you.

  • Vince Says:

    Bob, you’re suggesting the equivalent of an automotive leakdown tester for springers. That’s a good idea… it should be fairly easy to come up with an expanding tube that one could insert inside a barrel bore and pressurize it that way. The only problem is that you won’t be able to approach actual pressures seen during firing, but it would probably still be able to find most sealing problems.

    Right now I’m working on a trigger scale that delivers an analog signal proportional to pull weight, so I don’t have time to play with that idea at the moment!

  • ChosenClay Says:

    UW hunter,
    I intend to comment on this blog
    more, I don’t were to find anybody
    else who likes airguns!
    Ian

  • BobC Says:

    B.B.,

    Thanks for that answer, I see what you meant about not being safe.

    My next question is: What’s the fix. (tune, new trigger etc.?)

    BobC

  • Bob from OZ Says:

    Eh Vince,

    I was thinking of going around the outside barrel diameter with an adjustable clip to seal.

    Now you have mentioned into the barrel…how about a slightly modified cylinder compression gauge with a “t” piece with valve so that it can be pressurised. Obviously the original valve would be removed and rubber cone turned to fit 177-25.

    BTW has anyone tried a compression gauge on the end of a barrel and dry firing…if so what pressure ranges are generated. Guess it could damage the rifle’s seals badly.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Discovery,

    The answer depends on what is meant by the term “outshoot.” If you mean power, then no, a 54 doesn’t have quite the power of the .22 Discovery. It’s close, but the Discovery shades the 54 by one or two foot-pounds. The 460 is supposed to have more power, but my testing indicates otherwise. Some 350 Magnums might be equivalent, but that would be more of an individual rifle than a whole model.

    If you mean accuracy, then a 54 might be able to keep up with a Disco at 50 yards. It depends more on who is shooting them.

    As for the other RWS Diana rifles–no chance!

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Bob C.,

    There is no good fix for the Remington Genesis trigger. It’s too inexpensive for anyone to work on, so no aftermarket has sprung up. The best you can do is continue to shoot the rifle and be aware of the safety issue.

    You also asked about a Mondial Oklahoma air pistol. It’s a breakbarrel single shot spring piston pistol made in Italy. The value is quite low, with a 100 percent gun being worth less than $50.

    B.B.

  • kevin Says:

    Everyone,

    The humble little diana 27 never ceases to amaze me. I’ll go several weeks without picking it up. When I do get it out of the safe I can’t put it down. So lightweight, easy to cock and great accuracy. I visited another airgun forum and the buzz that B.B.’s multi part series on the diana 27 is amazing. This little gun has quite a following. What other gun will be talked about like this one 25 years after they quit manufacturing it? Are there other “classics” among us?

    kevin

  • wayne Says:

    Kevin,

    I agree, I love my collection of oldies and the couple of 27s top the list.. just barely over the little 25.. probably because it was my first pellet gun..

    Impulsive Wacky Wayne struck last night… I was just looking to see what the different models looked like.. really… just looking..
    but.. then I couldn’t resist a “BROWNING CITORI LIGHTNING SPORTING CLAYS 12GA” that someone I sold an air rifle to had.. he wants to trade.. so here it is.. just about like new..

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=122785472

    Wacky Wayne

  • kevin Says:

    Wayne,

    Beautiful gun. You’re entering a new world. Be prepared to be spoiled. I didn’t see in his description, what chokes, if any is he including? See if he’ll include all the chokes he has for this gun.

    kevin

  • wayne Says:

    Kevin,

    Lots of new worlds for me these days.. too much fun for one old man!!
    I’ll ask him for all the chokes, for sure!

    I noticed you really like the Invector models.. are the older ones with set chokes really not so good? Sometimes they can be had for more like $650.. I’m thinking of a 20ga also.. just looking don’t ya know…

    Wayne

  • kevin Says:

    Wayne,

    By older shotguns with set chokes I assume you’re talking about shotguns without removable chokes? If so, there are many fine double barrel shotguns that typically have one barrel that is full choke and the other that is modified. This is what I grew up hunting with and killed a lot of game with these guns. Even with a double barrel you’re limited to two chokes with these guns. An older single barrel and you’re limited to one choke. They’ll work in a lot of situations but in some cases they’re overkill and in others they’re not adequate. With an interchangeable choke system, like the invector plus by browing, you have many guns in one gun.

    If you’re talking about the invector chokes on browning guns vs. the invector plus chokes on browning guns, always buy invector plus because the invector plus guns are back bored.

    I like brownings invector plus choke system over their older invector or sometimes called standard invector because the barrels are back-bored on the invector plus shotguns.
    Back boring allows better patterning. I’ve had a lot of shotguns and the invector plus brownings pattern the best and have a wide variety of chokes that cover any situation. The midas grade choke is designed for shooting clay pigeons. The sabot express rifled choke tube is for shooting slugs and is effective with both sabot and foster slugs. Remember, you need this special choke if you’re going to shoot slugs. I especially like the briley (after market) invector plus chokes. They seemed to pattern even better than the browning (factory) invector plus chokes in my citori’s and also work better in a bps that I have. Here’s a good article I found on the browning site that describes back boring with pictures to give you an idea of what I’m yammering about:

    http://www.browning.com/library/infonews/detail.asp?ID=114

    I’m not much of a techno guy but when a friend and I went to the range in the early 1980′s to pattern shotguns, he shot his new browning with invector plus chokes and I shot my old standby a browning superposed. After seeing the pattern boards my superposed was retired and I bought my first citori.

    kevin

  • wayne Says:

    Kevin,

    Thanks for the link.. I’ll be reading up tonight… after FT practice!!

    Wayne

  • kevin Says:

    Wayne,

    Would you please send me a bill for the pellets? I’m I going to have to fly to Oregon to stuff cash in your jeans?

    kevin

  • Anonymous Says:

    Hi BB,

    Thanks for all your postings on the Diana 27; they convinced me to look for one; i finally found a Diana 25 in the UK, but it cost more than the price of the gun to ship it; so, i settled for a Diana 23. As noted in your column, it is a marginally-powered air rifle; yet I only wanted it for an indoor plinker, and something with which I could train my grandkids to shoot. In .22 caliber, it puts out just a little more power than my Crosman 130, but the trigger is decent, and the accuracy is excellent (with my makeshift peep sight). It's just a ton of fun. So, thanks for turning me on to these cool little Dianas. (no need to reply; i know you're busy; i just wanted to thank you for your service to the airgun community, and to me in particular. =>)

    Dave at RAFB

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Dave,

    I have a friend who owns 7 Diana model 27s and 3 or 4 model 25s. He is always excited to find a model 23 at an airgun show because he gives them away to little boys, with their parents knowledge and permission, of course.

    This past Christmas he gave one to a little 8 year-old and in the afternoon he got a telephone call from an extremely thrilled youngster. The rifle he gave was also a .22 caliber and shot quite slow, as you indicate. But it was just perfect for this little boy and his father.

    I’m glad you discovered these fine airguns and I wish you well in your military career.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Thanks, BB!
    take care,
    dave

  • dugcarr1 Says:

    BB. Kevin ect..

    I dont know were to post?????
    I got my 460 magnum yesterday!
    I love it.

    quick question . for the whiscome honey, besides crossmans what other pellets need it? (namebrands)
    and can i use Hoppe’s 9 lubricating oil with STP oil treatment?

    is there any other tips for me about what to do right now with the gun now that it is new? besides tighten the screws and clean the barrel with the cloth pellets?
    thanks guys.

  • .22 multi-shot Says:

    Dugcarr1,

    You can comment at the current blog, http://www.pyramydair.com/blog.

    I wouldn’t clean your 460 with felt pellets. There isn’t enough resistance so it is kind of like dry firing.

    See these articles on barrel cleaning.
    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/02/should-you-clean-new-airgun-barrel.html
    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2005/11/is-your-airgun-barrel-really-clean.html
    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/04/can-you-keep-clean-barrel-with-crosman.html

    .22 multi-shot

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    dugcarr1,

    I must agree with ,22 multi-shot about those felt pellets. Don’t shoot them in this gun (or any other spring gun, for that matter.

    I’m so glad you like the rifle. When I tested it I felt is was going to be a winner.

    As for pellets to try, read the reports. Here is the .22 rifle:

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/11/rws-diana-460-magnum-in-22-part-2.html

    And here is the .177:

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/09/rws-diana-460-magnum-part-3.html

    B.B.

    The type of oil used to mix Whiscombe honey doesn’t really matter–as long as it is a quality gun oil. Don’t use 3-in-1. The real secret is the STP.

    B.B.

  • dugcarr1 Says:

    bb
    yes I know not to shoot them through
    I pushed a few through, but will stop that now.
    what I was getting at with the STP
    is that they have 6 different types.
    it was the “OIL treatment ” type I wanted right?

    thanks again,
    DOUG

  • kevin Says:

    dugcarr1,

    Congratulations on the new 460 magnum!

    For Whiscombe Honey Per B.B.: Mix two-thirds Hoppes Gun Oil with one-third STP Engine Treatment by volume. Mix them thoroughly, and they’ll never separate. I store mine in a plastic squeeze bottle designed to hold fluids like oil.

    Application
    Take an old empty pellet tin. A .22-caliber tin works best because it’s deeper. Cut some good foam for the bottom of the tin. Real airgunners will cut the foam from one of the two foam pads found in every cardboard box of Crosman Premiers. Insert the foam into the tin and press it to the bottom. Put about 20 drops of your chosen oil on the foam, then cover the foam with a single layer of pellets.
    When I competed in field target, I used to weigh all my Crosman Premier heavies and use only those from a specific weight group (weighed to the nearest tenth of a grain). These I loaded into a tin set up to oil the pellets. By spreading a single layer of pellets on the foam, they’ll roll around as the tin is carried, thus transferring the oil to the OUTSIDE of all pellets equally. How much oil pellets need varies with who does the telling, but I have found that a light coat is all it takes. When your fingers become oily from handling the pellets, that’s enough.

    kevin

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Doug,

    When I bought it, it was called Engine Treatment.

    B.B.

  • dugcarr1 Says:

    bb keven

    so i am going to use
    “”” Hoppe’s 9 lubricating oil with STP oil treatment”””
    stop me if this is wrong.
    I am going to coat the exterior of my rifle with “Remdrilube” after handling. and every 1000 shots lube and oil as per RWS instructions (except barrel)
    I am never going to clean my barrel once I scope and sight in, unless accuracy drops.

    do you guys have a model # of rings I could use, 30 mm rings for my 460 compensator mount (square screw on bottom). i was misled and have the accushots (rgwm-30m4). guess I shouldn’t use these eh?
    thanks again guys
    DOUG C

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Doug,

    Sounds to me like you understand everything and are ready to make Whiscombe Honey.

    Those high rings you bought will probably be too high when combined with the drooper base. Get the lowest rings you can, like these:

    http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/accessory.pl?accessory_id=2449

    I don’t understand the remark “square screw on the bottom.” Are you referring to the Weaver key? It’s not a screw, but a solid key that locks into the slots in the base. But these Accushot rings use a steel crosspin in place of that key.

    The “see thru” ring is just a gimmick. Nobody uses them that way. It’s just a marketing ploy to explain the hole in the extrusion that was put there to reduce weight.

    B.B.

  • kevin Says:

    Doug C,

    The UTG rings (RGWM-30m4) that Pyramyd Air sold you will work with your leapers drooper/compensator base. The ones that you have are medium height and the ones that B.B. suggested are lower height. You may want to mount your scope with the rings you received and see if the scope is too high to comfortably meet your eye when you rest your cheek on the gun as you normally would. If the scope is uncomfortably high you may want to send these medium high rings back and get the low rings that B.B. suggested.

    On the bottom of these scope rings you will see a round cross bar. The rings should be mounted on your leapers drooper/compensator base so the cross bar is mated/married firmly against a cross slot/weaver key on the top of your base. All those cross slots/keys on the top of your base give you many options for positioning your scope. Find the one that positions your scope best for your eye relief, push the scope rings rearward, flush up against the slots/keys and tighten. DON’T OVERTIGHTEN THE BOLT ON THESE RINGS. These bolts can be stripped out or even break off if overtorqued.

    Please try these rings. Many people have been successful with these rings and the leapers drooper/compensator base. Some have had problems since you’re forced to marry/mate a round cross bar on the scope rings to a square cross slot/key on the base. Sometimes they slip sometimes they don’t. If they start slipping on your gun be aware that there are other scope rings for the leapers drooper/compensator weaver/pictinney bases that have square cross bars to mate/marry the square cross slots/keys on your base.

    kevin

  • dugcarr1 Says:

    bb kevin

    ty.

    good advise.

    I will try the rings i have now.
    if i like them I will loctite them in a few days (very small amount on key bolts only). If not I will buy the ones you suggest.
    I keep getting #$&^#ed with border/tariff/customs fees when i order from the USA. So im trying to order from Canada's limited selection unless its a big order.

    A 10$ item cost me 75$ last time.

    ok, im off to look at ALL my scope notes and watch these videos again.
    wish me luck.
    DOUG C

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