by B.B. Pelletier
Well, this report really resonated with a lot of readers. Here are three observations I have from the comments posted to Part 1 and from other comments I’ve read since Part 1 came out. First, there are a lot of you who admire old vintage airguns like this one. Thanks to an anonymous reader who told me to look for the date stamp on the underside of the barrel close to the baseblock, I now know that my rifle was made in April 1928. That makes it the oldest airgun in my possession at this time. David Enoch told me that he really loves a Hy Score 801 that the same person who fixed up my rifle worked on. We agreed that Jim does the best work we have seen on wood and is also the finest shipping packer around.
The second observation I want to make is that a LOT of people have done business with Jim and all of them have found him to be just as meticulous as I have. So, my comment about safely buying used airguns over the internet extends to people like him, who have a well-documented reputation.
The third observation I want to make is that this blog can make things happen! There was a Hy Score 80-7 (Diana 27) for sale on the Yellow Forum classified ads when the first part of my report came out. Within two days of mentioning it in the remarks section of this blog, the seller had an offer pending. Since it hasn’t been relisted, I assume it sold.
Normally, today would be velocity day, and I will get to that in the next report, but I first want to describe the rifle to you in greater detail.
Date stamp
As I mentioned, the date of manufacture is stamped under the barrel, around the point where the barrel enters the baseblock. It’s very typical of German airguns to have a date stamp somewhere on the metal parts. I was surprised to see how old this airguns is.
Date stamps are common on pre-war German airguns. This shows the month and year, which is the most common method.
Other clues to the age
The phrase Made in Germany is stamped on the underside of the barrel. Since that changed after World War II and lasted until 1989, it usually means the gun was made before WWII. There are instances of Made in Germany being applied to post-war articles, which is where the sometimes-seen phrase Made in Germany West came from. Of course, the date stamp clinches it; but without that, the Made in Germany stamp is considered fairly conclusive.
D.R.P. stands for Deutsche Reichspatent (German Empire Patent). It was used ca. 1928-1945.
Front sight
The rear sight on this rifle is fairly plain for the era it was made. A simple screw with a large head adjusts elevation. But the front sight shows the company cared about accuracy. It’s a simple post in a round hood, but they thought to engrave several lines on the front that align with a tiny mark made in the center of the barrel. The front sight can be drifted left and right in a dovetail, so there is a windage adjustment of sorts. Little touches like this are what endear these vintage designs to airgunners.
The five engraved lines refer the front sight to an almost imperceptible dot in the center of the barrel. It’s barely visible in this photo as a tiny line directly under the center of the lines.
Barrel latch
The barrel latch is what makes it a Haenel. There are barrel latches on contemporary airguns. The HW 35 that is still being made and has one, as does the Slavia 630/631. All pre-war Haenels had them, too. When you cock the gun, your cocking hand first pushes straight back on the latch, causing the barrel to drop open at the breech.
Barrel latch is located on the right side of the baseblock. Note that the pivot bolt is locked in position by a screw that fits a recess in the circumference of the pivot bolt head. This kind of construction has gone the way of the dodo, but it’s the stuff of airgun collector’s dreams!
Breech is fully open on a cocked rifle. That squared-off bar on the side of the deep notch under the breech is the end of the barrel latch. The breech is held closed by a chisel detent that’s located in the spring tube. The barrel latch pushes the detent back out of this deep groove, allowing the breech to drop open. Note the low height of the o-ring breech seal in this photo. I may experiment with a spacer after testing velocity. The lessons we’ve learned recently have sensitized me to the breech seal.
BB,
Thanks for continuing to show us where our guns were born and how they grew up.
As much trouble as there is with screws coming loose, I’m sad that the “Dodo” is gone. It seems like such a good idea, but probably an expensive one to manufacture when a vigilant screw driver does the same job.
-Chuck
B.B.,
I’m one of those nostalgic gun nuts that really likes your vintage gun articles. Especially when the focus is on little, functional details that have been overlooked in current production guns.
The lines at the bottom of the front site enhancing kentucky windage, with indentation/dot on the barrel showing mid alignment point is magnificently simple yet effective. My diana 27 has the screw that locks the pivot bolt but the pivot bolt has numerous scallops for locking screw to engage with. Ingenious. Shame these small cost, effective design features have become a lost art.
kevin
B.B,
I’ve been at the IWA in Nürnberg and brought a few pictures of new airguns home..are you interested them, or want me to write a guest blog?
Mel,
Grüss Gott!
You betcha, I’d like those photos on the blog.
And a guest blog is ideal. Contact me at guestblogger@puramydair.com
I’m on the waqy to the range, so I’ll get back to you this pm.
B.B.
Kevin,
Actually, there are SOME modern companies paying attention. Crosman is the big one. This stuff impresses them and they do stuff about it.
B.B.
Mel,
I think BB misspelled his email address.
It should be:
guestblogger@pyramydair.com
not
guestblogger@puramydair.com
See the “Y” after the “P” of pyramydair?
-Chuck
does anyone know where to either get repair or a seal kit for an fx3000 hand pump. after five years of constant use, an old friend has begun to fail.
B.B.
Have fun at the range.. I know I do!!
I’m with Kevin.. do more of the old vintage guns… any one else notice that they don’t shoot 1,000fps?
I know they kept “Improving” over the years… adding more and more speed, and leaving behind the quality touches… leaving me behind too.. I want the oldies…
That 807 is still on the market, the seller sent me an email, the first deal fell through.. I’m talking with him now.. I want to see the difference, if any, to the Diana 27s I have..
Personally, I’d rather have my Vince tuned pre-war Diana 27 than a new TX200 or HW-77 or RWS 52 deluxe…. all of which cost twice as much as a good used, tuned vintage gun..
A Diana, Haenel, HY-Score or CZ will go up in value and ALWAYS be a pleasure to shoot… When I want more power, I pick up a PCP.. simple as that!!
Wayne,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
Hey everyone!
It’s great to see older guns like this. Though I don’t have much experience with them I throughly enjoy reading about all things historical and the history of airguns is no exception.
To keep everyone who has been helping me with my airgun issues up to date as to what’s going on with my rifle i figured I’d write a quick post about what’s going on. I conducted a test on a whim with PBA pellets made by Gamo. They were a tight fit in the clip and I was skeptical at first, but then I started to fire them out and to my surprise they not only exited the muzzle, they flew straight and true. Without even trying I placed about six out of eight shots within the black of the official NRA air rifle target. I emptied four fully loaded clips without a single pellet jamming or getting stuck. So I believe my next course of action is going to be to find some lead free wad cutters and see how they do.I have a hunch they just may do the trick.
On a slightly off topic note, does anyone know what ‘good’ is when it comes to the official NRA targets? most of my shots stay within the black rings anyway, but I’d like to know what’s common in competition before I actually sign myself up for one. And I remember someone asking me what event it would be. Hopefully soon i’ll be entering in the standard air rifle matches. The rule book states that any functioning air rifle can be used in these competitions because they’re essentially the same rules as in international rifle, so i believe it’s a different class than what they use the sporter rifles for. I’m hoping my Walther will stand up to the competition. It’s one of the most accurate airguns I’ve ever handled so it should be fine *crosses fingers*.
-Alex
Mel,
I could be wrong about that email address.
I wanted to send BB and email so I sent it to the PYramydair address and it bouned back as undeliverable, so I sent one to the PUramydair address and in hasn’t bounced back yet, and it’s been 40 minutes.
So, ….? Me should keep nose out of things!
-Chuck
Alex,
Glad to hear you’re making positive progress with the walther lever action. Since you’re still searching for the “right” pellet, don’t forget B.B.’s advice:
“Crosman Corporation has more experience than any other airgun manufacturer with repeating airguns. They make special undersized pellets with lead that’s been hardened with antimony. All of that makes their pellets feed best in repeaters.
Try some Crosman Copperhrad match pellets in your rifle. They are wadcutters and you can get them at Wal-Mart. They are cheaper than just about any other pellet around.”
In order to answer your question about “what is good shooting at your NRA target”, tell me what kind of NRA airgun competition are you talking about? 10 meter shooting?
kevin
kevin-
Yup, it’s a standard NRA 10 meter air rifle target. The number in the lower right hand corner of the paper says AR-5/1
-Alex
I noticed when I first got it that my Slavia had the locking second screw on the pivot point. At the time I wondered why some of the other rifles I’ve owned over the years didn’t have this feature.
I too love the review you do of the older guns.
It’s interesting how this gun, 80 years old isn’t that different than current breakbarrels.
CowBoyStar Dad
Alex,
I believe the NRA competition you’re talking about has you shooting your 10 meter target at 10 meters from a standing, kneeling and prone position. If my assumption is correct then you get 60 shots total, removing the white center dot counts ten points and a perfect score is 600.
“What would a good score be?” would depend on your competition.
In 2003 at the NRA YOUTH Nationals, Nathane Cochrane shot a score of 527 (63 points from perfect) and placed 132ND out of 300 shooters.
B.B. has done a lot of good articles on 10 meter. Here’s a good 4 part series (this link takes you to part 4 but at the top of the article you can click on “part 1” to read the series in order):
/blog/2008/3/10-meter-rifles-part-4-used-10-meter-rifles/
Here’s a good overview of NRA 10 meter air rifle shooting:
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/airgun.asp
Alex, now you owe me your first trophy. Good luck.
kevin
Afternoon B.B.,
Was the end of of the barrel latch repaired? It looks like the end of it was replaced by an expert.
Would you please include some close up pictures of the stock for us.
Thanks much, Mr B.
BB, you’re right, a gun of this vintage seems to have extra attention paid to certain details. But that method of locking the pivot bolt is still in use on a number of guns… including (oddly enough) the Industry Brand B1 and B2 breakbarrels – which are about as bottom-feeder as you get when it comes to breakbarrels! The Hammerli 490 you tested had the same arrangement.
Some modern users of this design (Cometa, Hatsan) are kind enough to put in 8 or 10 cutouts for the pivot bolt. This allows for much finer adjustment. Frequently when there’s only 4, one position will be too loose and the next too tight. Some older guns I’ve worked on for Wayne only had 2 cutouts – talk about a rough adjustment…
The Model 1 DRP I did for Wayne had a different handle on the barrel lock release slider, and another Haenel I saw in a gun shop had one similar to Wayne’s. Have you seen enough of these to know if the style varied, or if yours might be a replacement?
Chuck,
You were right. I was in a hurry this morning.
The address is blogger@pyramydair.com
B.B.
To Mr. B:
What looks like a repair to the end of the barrel latch release is actually a slight offset in the metal, which keeps the latch release from sliding out. It’s held in place by the pivot forks, and lifts right out of its little track when the barrel is removed.
To Vince:
As far as I know, the barrel latch release is original, although in the course of eighty-one years, it’s quite possible somebody replaced it. I have seen a near identical one on a Lucznik 87.
Jim
Kevin,
Kentucky or (alternately, depending on your viewpoint and location) Tennessee windage does not require any mechanical adjustment — what is shown is simply a windage adjustment.
BB,
I’m reluctant to say it, but you may need to get a bigger set of screw drivers. There’s some damage to the screwheads shown that perhaps indicates a screwdriver blade of inadequate thickness and/or width was used. I don’t have the special gunsmithing screwdrivers but always try to mach the blade to the slot, and that seems to obviate the problem. Of course, somebody else could have done the damage over the last 80 years:).
BG_Farmer,
You’re right the engraved lines on the front sight are not adjustable on B.B.’s Haenel Model 1 which is why I said they “enhance” the ability to adjust your sighting for windage.
As Herb would say, we’re violently agreeing. ;^)
kevin
WHEW thought I was gonna miss the blog for awhile.Video card went out
this weekend and had to spend this
morning on PC repair
BB Thanks for doing the vintage stuff
air or powder these are my favorites.
Wayne Congrats on the Iver “cattleman”the one I got to shoot didn’t seem to shoot as low from POA as colt and rugers,maybe just me.
Vince M.O. is on the way
JTinAL
Mr. B.,
It’s difficult to say, but you may be right that the barrel latch was repaired.
B.B.
Alex,
I’ve wondered about the NRA standards and how to reproduce them. As I understand it, it is fairly simple beneath the data about fire courses, point totals and so on. A distinguished (Oympic) rating is at least 95% of the total points, expert is 90%, sharpshooter is 80%. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. It’s also worth noting that after easily qualifying at the expert rating in the military, it took B.B. a little while to get the NRA sharpshooter rating for the pistol. In other words, it’s not easy.
Other observations, ultimate shot G. David Tubb apparently does not shoot many competitions outside of the big ones that he tries to win. So, you need not compete a ton. In fact, Tubb says he doesn’t necessarily handle a rifle when he practices. He just thinks about it. But that is probably particular to him.
Also what comes to mind is a Winter Olympics several editions ago when the top-rated woman shooter from some Eastern European country freaked out in the biathlon and was missing and pulling the trigger and weeping profusely. I guess it can happen to the best.
B.B., your comment about the Feinwerkbau over the weekend made me wonder about a blog on a super top-end Olympic rifle which most of us would never handle. On the other hand, perhaps there isn’t much more to say than a bunch of superlatives. Also, I recall reading somewhere that the Air Arms 10m rifle is the same as the Olympic rifles except for the ergonomics.
Kevin, I’m fascinated with your experience with the S410. Wayne is vindicated. How does the S410 compare with your expectations for it?
Matt61
A question for any RWS model 350 owners out there:
I’ve seen some rather conflicting numbers on the cocking effort of the 350; at this point I don’t know which to trust. So, to those who have broken in mod. 350’s, what is the cocking effort? Even if you don’t have an actual number a ballpark estimate is better than nothing.
Thanks in advance,
JMJ
Afternoon All,
I was just shopping for ammo for the 1903 marlin model 1893 in 32-40… not easy to find, but got a few of the “John Wayne” boxes.. but I really don’t want to shoot them.. anybody got some 32-40 ammo?
Anyway, while on Gunbroker, I noticed that 38-55 is a little more common.. So impulsive me bought a marlin 1893 carbine, made in 1894, (one of the first) in 38-55.. It was only $450, the blue book that B.B. just sent me, (thanks again Tom), says it’s value ranges from $350 to $1,600… so I think I’m safe, but the ad copy says, it has a “rough bore”.. I don’t know how rough, but wonder what I should do, if anything to make it shootable… or just let it be a wall hanger..
I would sure like to be able to shoot these two oldies, at least a little.. also, can I shoot regular .38 special or .357 mags in it?
here is a link to it..
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=124624578
Wacky Wayne, for sure today!!
Wayne,
A .38-55 is a rifle cartridge, larger than a .30-30. It’s also .375 diameter. .38 Special is .357 diameter, so the bullet wouldn’t fit anyway.
B.B.
What’s up with discovery pricing???
Anyone have any experience with tim mcmurry?
John
B.B.
Thanks..
John,
I’ve had a great many good deals with Tim at Mac I.. why do you ask?
What is going on with the disco pricing?
Wayne,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
JML,
I just put my 2yr old 350 on the bathroom scale and saw about 32 pounds of effort to cock it. I am 6’2″ at 150lbs and it’s not a chore for me to shoot it. Hope that helps.
Mr B.
Now gun and pump is $399 verses $379. I was thinking of having tim mod a disco for me because he is one of the few people who will ship to me. From what I’ve heard I’ll presume that you have been satisfied with his services?
BB,
Somebody beat me to the punch 🙂
I just read an article in Guns&Ammo's Handgun magazine April/May issue about using airsoft for handgun training.
-Chuck
Chuck,
It’s been done several times. I did it in Airgun Illustrated about 6 years ago.
That doesn’t make your experience any less valuable.
B.B.
Mr. B-
Thanks!! That’s what I was hoping to hear. And I couldn’t have heard from anyone better- I’m 6’2″ and about 155 lbs 🙂
JMJ
Bb can you do a report on the daisy model 40 modeled after a ww1 gun.I don’t I know which one though.
Matt61,
Re: How does the S410 compare to my expectations
Hmmmm, that’s one of the better questions.
I read volumes about this rifle and have learned to distinguish between the comments of a new enthusiastic S410 owner and a former S410owner that has traded up to a rapid or customized USFT or ? The truth about this gun is somewhere between these opinions.
Even after reading volumes I had a few surprises.
The UNPLEASANT SURPRISES. Waiting almost 3 months for the gun. A new AA S410 SL FAC with a right hand walnut thumbhole stock in .22 caliber didn’t exist in the USA until about 4 weeks ago. The apparent barrel droop that may be the fault of the bushnell elite 3200 scope I mounted on the gun was another unpleasant surprise. Talked to a guy the other day that said since this scope was manufactured as a firearm scope the crosshairs are manufactured to aim below poi to take into account recoil. First I heard of that so I’m not sure whether to blame the gun or scope. I bought a set of adjustable rings and the problem went away leaving me with enormous range of adjustment in the scope. The other semi-unpleasant surprise was that although medium high mounts will clear the magazine, they aren’t high enough to align my eye (I have a big head in more ways than one. Save it, I’ve heard all the jokes) so I had to install higher mounts. I don’t like the safety being on the trigger but knew when I bought the gun that this was a negative for me.
THE PLEASANT SURPRISES. Since this was my first pcp, I was self intimidated by the pcp experience. Hand pumping, chrony strings to understand the top of the power curve on highest setting, chrony strings to understand the power curve on lowest setting etc. I was foolish. Hand pumping after the initial fill takes 5 minutes if you rest at the top and bottom of the pump stroke as you’re supposed to. Chrony “work” took about an hour including pumping the gun 3 times. I’ve since put the chrony away and I’ve since purchased a carbon fiber tank. Now I can sling some lead with only a minute or two downtime using the tank.
FULFILLED EXPECTATIONS.
1-Fit and Finish. The walnut thumbhole is a stock you crawl into. Although the adjustable butt pad has only one bolt to secure it, when locktited it doesn’t move. Good blueing (not great), checkering is well done and smooth (the way I like it), nice piece of walnut and the rosewood end cap and rosewood grip cap are nice touches.
2-Ergonomics. This rifle fits me well. I like a balanced rifle and this one feels like 51% barrel heavy. With high mounts and butt pad adjusted almost all the way down, I can raise the gun to where my cheek naturally fits the stock, open my eyes and I have a clear and complete scope picture. Ideal.
3-Cocking, magazine indexing and filling with air. Cocking of this sidelever can be done with your pinky finger. The factory magazines are “gritty” to use but the aftermarket RC magazines are a dream. I sold the factory magazines I had. The fill adapter is a bit odd (B.B. didn’t like this feature) but you get used to it and now I don’t pay it much attention.
4-Shots per fill/velocity. I get 50 shots per fill without any change in poi on medium setting using jsb exact 15.8 gr when shooting at 30 yards. I get 30-35 shots per fill without any change in poi on high setting using jsb exact 18 gr. at 50 yards.
5-Accuracy. I’ve saved the best for last. Ease of accuracy with a pellet gun is primarily what convinced me to try a pcp. The accuracy is unreal. It’s boring to shoot at 30 yards. At 50 yards on Saturday we shot lubed kodiaks and the best group of ten shots (one full magazine) you could cover with a nickel. We were bench shooting with a front bag but no rear bag. My friend and I ended up going through over 3 tins of pellets and a dozen shoot-nc targets and finally put stick matches in the target holder on the pellet trap and took turns lighting the matches. No we didn’t light them all, most were shot off before they could be lit but we did light a few.
This has rambled on long enough. Sorry but I’m having a lot of fun with this gun especially since the carbon fiber tank arrived.
kevin
It’s a sign of the times.
Can’t help but post a comment about the legendary airguns that are coming on the market now.
Within two hours of one another a Theoben Dual Magnum, 1 of 103 guns made came on the market then a Sportsmatch Scimitar, #5 of 12 guns made came on the market.
What great opportunity these times afford us all.
kevin
Matt,
I can do the model 40. I used to own one.
What’s the interest?
B.B.
Well bb I think it’s modeled after the springfield gun that was used in ww1 and ww2.I’m still looking for a ww2 bb gun.And also a daisy 814
Matt, There is a Daisy 814 for sale on Gunbroker Right now, Goes off in 3 days. Jon F.
Matt,
It’s not a copy of any particular model. Instead, it incorporates many military design features, the biggest of which are the bayonet and the full-length wood stock.
B.B.
The Daisy 814 is a copy of the Ruger Mini 14 with collapsable stock. That model was withdrawn from the market and made illegal in 1989. Those, like mine, that sold before the cutoff are grandfathered in and worth a premium.
B.B.
Oh so by illegal they can’t be sold?
Matt,
I was referring to the firearm. No, the collapsable stock can no longer be sold to civilians. Military and Law Enforcement can still have them, and they do.
The grandfathered guns are legal to sell at any time to any citizen.
B.B.
Good cause I plan to maybe buy one.If my repot card is good.
Matt,
Just so we are clear–the Daisy airgun model 814 has no legal problems whatsoever. It’s the .223-caliber Ruger Mini-14 semiautomatic rifle with collapsable stock that is no longer legal to sell to civilians (new guns, only). The Daisy 814 airguns are free from any federal laws and are traded openly.
B.B.
Cool