by B.B. Pelletier
We’re mixing it up with this report. Since everybody wanted to see accuracy, I promised it for today. As I said at the end of the last report, accuracy is a barrel thing. I wanted to present it separately, because it deserves a report of its own. But, first, I want to amend something I said about the free-floated barrel.
It is free-floated, but when the muzzle cap is tightened down all the way, it presses the four chambers back into the muzzle of the barrel, which you will remember is an enlarged flat platform. That action locks the barrel and shroud together so they move as a single piece.When that happens, the barrel AND shroud are both free-floating. That allows the barrel to maintain alignment with the holes in the end of each of the chambers and with the hole in the muzzle cap. If the pellet were to touch any of the side of those holes, it would be flipped wild and away from the group. You will see that it works as designed.
I thank Ray Apelles for clearing that up for me. Ray and his father, Hans, worked on the Marauder as it was being tested by Crosman, and he has had his rifle apart literally hundreds of times, so he understands its inner workings very well.
An early challenge
At the start of accuracy testing, I discovered that the gun wasn’t grouping well in the beginning of the charge. But after 20 shots it settled down and started grouping very well. Remember, I was shooting at 50 yards, which always shows things like this immediately. From that description, what do you suppose was happening?
Are you starting to develop a sense of how PCPs operate? If so, you may have guessed correctly that my rifle was in valve lock after the fill and had to be shot some until the reservoir pressure dropped into the range at which the valve was working.
Now the Crosman factory had set up this rifle for a 3,000 psi fill, per my wishes. And I filled it to 3,000 psi–EXACTLY. What is happening?
My pressure gauge and Crosman’s pressure gauge do not agree. That’s what’s happening. Here’s the interesting thing. Both Crosman and I use identical 88 cubic-foot Airhog carbon fiber tanks with the same fill gauge. But they disagree by about 500 psi! While that’s a lot, I have seen almost as much when I worked at the AirForce Airguns factory. And Ray Apelles has two gauges that disagree by 400 psi, so this isn’t an isolated incident.
I discovered that my rifle wants to be filled no higher than the 2,500 psi mark on my gauge, and then it’s on the power curve from the start. Once I learned that, the real accuracy testing began.
I started the test with the 10.5-grain Crosman Premier pellet because that seemed to be the best pellet for the rifle. If it were a springer, I’d go with the 7.9-grain Premier. Always choose the heaviest pellet for a pneumatic or CO2 gun.
After a dozen tight groups, I switched off to Beeman Kodiaks, Air Arms domes and JSB Exacts. None of them shot as well as the heavy Premiers, so I switched back.
In all, I shot 20 groups with the Marauder at 50 yards on this day. The best was 0.436″ and the worst was 0.651″. The average would have been around six-tenths of an inch. As you can imagine, that’s not only very consistent performance, but it gave me confidence in the rifle when shooting this pellet. It is the reason I told several of you to wait a bit before buying that PCP you wanted, because you wanted accuracy above everything.
I’ve shot other PCPs that did as well as the Marauder. And I’ve shot tighter individual groups at 50 yards with some of those guns. In fact, I shot one tighter group with a .22-caliber Benjamin Discovery. However, the Discovery could not maintain the average level of consistency the Marauder does. I believe that if I keep shooting this rifle, I’ll probably wind up with an all-time record tight group.
This level of accuracy doesn’t come by accident. While the other precharged rifles I’ve shot have given me some bragging groups, I can’t remember one besides the USFT that was as consistent as this one. It’s the kind of rifle that hits the mark every time–with no excuses!
Looking back on the USFT report, it appears that your best group was approximately .081″ better at 50 yards. That ain’t much. Could that be within the range of normal variation for the shooter?
In any event, for SOME reason the Maurauder is making me think about, uh, well, trying a PCP. The Disco didn’t do it, Wayne didn’t do it, and I’m not sure this is a good thing.
Is it?
Vince,
As afr as the difference between the Marauder and the USFT, yes, I suppose that little difference could be the normal variation of any good shooter.
Yesterday I was on the range with a 6.5 mm Swede that groups about an inch at 50 yards. While that’s not great, it is consistent. Yesterday I grouped that same rifle with the 15 rounds of same ammo into 8 inches at the same distance. Then my partner sat down and shot a 1.5-inch group–same ammo and gun. This is the guy I outshoot all the time.
Then I shot the tightest group I ever shot with a blackpowder rifle (1/4″ at 50 yards with a .43 Spanish), right after shooting the Swede! If that isn’t variation in a shooter, I don’t know what is!
I think that this Marauder is a good thing. I’m trying to show everything that happened in my testing, but I can’t TELL you everything, because this research has occupied many days over the past month.
I spoke with Ray Apelles about the Marauder a couple days ago. He estimates he has about 12,000 rounds through his gun, so he knows it better than I do, and he feels the same as I do.
The adjustability aspect is not understood by many shooters– and by NO shooters who are not already shooting a PCP. People read about adjustability and think it’s wonderful, but what do you get when Ruger makes a revolver for both .22 rimfire AND .22 Magnum? You get a gun that doesn’t do either thing well.
This gun is different, because it allows the shooter the same latitude of adjustability as an airgunsmith. It just makes it easier to do.
However, if you still wonder, just watch what REAL owners say when the gun is released, starting April 22. You will be able to tell from their reaction if it’s worth it or not.
In the meantime, I will continue to report on the gun both here and on the Crosman website.
B.B.
BB – Basic Question – Is the Premier Heavy the same as the Ultra Mag?
Anyone know a good source for FWB parts? My father found an abused FWB 124 at a yard sale for $5. It’s missing the end of the barrel and the sights and needs a lot of work.
The Marauder looks better with every report. It’s at the top of my wish list.
B.B.-
This is completely of topic, but I was wondering if you could do a review on the Crosman Recruit.
Thanks
Recruit,
Here was my initial response to you:
I will try to review the Recruit, but it’s a 760 at its heart, so look at that review:
Then I looked and could find no 760 review. Smartass that I am, I ASSumed that I had reviewed the 760, because, well, I’m ME!
What a dope!
I will order a Recruit today and in the future, we’ll let that be the basis of all my 760 remarks.
Thanks,
B.B.
Randy,
It sure looks like it to me. I’ve been to the pellet-making section in Crosman, and believe me, those pellets all come off the same machines.
Back in the day the cardboard box was our guarantee of a uniform lot of pellets, but I don’t know whether that has gone by the wayside.
I also suspect that when there are QC problems on the line that the output is sold to the cheapest bidder. But there is no hard data to back that up. I do know that Remington sells cheaper ammo to Academy than they sell to gun stores.
B.B.
B.B.,
Beautiful range. In dry Colorado we have dirt. The only differance in ranges is the color of the dirt.
Interesting and disturbing about the differances in the airhog gauges since I have a new airhog tank and gauge. So I assume that initially you were filling the Marauder to 3,500 psi?!
Very impressive groups. Since you were shooting at 50 yards I assume that the “power setting” was on high?
Those look like your old trusty B-Square adjustables on the Marauder. Does the Marauder have a hole in its’ rail to accept a scope stop pin or does it have a built in scope stop like the AA S410?
kevin
Randy-in-VA,
Re: Source for missing parts on the fwb 124
I haven’t found a source for sights on the fwb 124. Keep and eye on the yellow or post a wanted ad and you may get lucky. This is where I found mine. By “missing the end of the barrel” I assume you mean the beeman muzzle brake that is often on these guns?
kevin
Kevin,
Velocity was averaging 920 with heavies. That’s pretty much wide open.
No scope stop hole on the Marauder because it doesn’t recoil.
Those are B-Square adjustable rings. I initially used fixed rings, but the droop was too much.
B.B.
Randy,
Don’t forget John Groenewold.
An FWB 124 for $5! What a find!
B.B.
Hi BB,
Was this Marauder prepped in any way besides the factory set-up for fill pressure and trigger? And was there any wind at the range that day? Thx.
Duncan
Are you going to test the rifle on co2?
If not, what velocity numbers can you expect from this rifle and will accuracy and distance change with co2?
BB,
Are there any disadvantages to a floating barrel other than the barrel droop?
A.R. Tinkerer
(formerly .22 multi-shot)
Duncan,
No wind, no prep, pellets not weighed.
B.B.
B.B.
Now that is great consistent, accuracy at 50 yards…
I had the same accuracy problems with the 4 discos I had, 3 out of the four would give me 1/4″ at 20 yards indoors one group out of 20 or so, the other groups would be anywhere from 1/2″ to 1-1/2″.. and I could never figure out why.. the 4th gun never gave the 1/4″ even once..
Now the Marauder looks to be a pleasantly different story. I’m sold already, (not that I’m hard to sell a gun to)!!:) I ordered one 2 months ago..
I’m wondering how my favorite pellet, JSB heavy did?.. I know you said worst than the CPH, how much worst? I’m wondering if the gun were set to 850fps with JSB heavy, if they would still be worst than CPH. I’ve noticed they always group better at that speed.
When I THINK I need to go over that speed, I use kodiak 10.6 or CPH, and they group better… But my best groups usually come with the JSB 10.2 at 800-850fps.
I guess that the Marauder can be adjusted down to that speed, with that pellet?
Wayne,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
Tinker,
No disadvantages that I know of.
B.B.
Wayne,
Best I recall the JSB was 3/4″ to 1″.
Yes, that speed is possible.
B.B.
Vince,
I have to believe I was one of the longest PCP holdouts. I had dozens of reasons, but I can tell you I really enjoy my Puffer now. For the price, it would appear the Marauder will be an excellent value.
What is holding you back?
BB you’ve almost got me rethinking
my stand against PCP’s with this report.More and better of the discovery and I liked that one for the price!Maybe I’ll have to rearrange the kind of shooting I do.
Right now I’m ~95% plinking fun 3%
paper (for more precise sight in )
and 2% pest control.
Waiting for CO2 to warm up leaves me cold and I can’t seem to justify the extra expenses of PCP.
Guess that means I don’t want it bad enough yet.for now it’s self contained guns for me,but you and Wayne are starting to work on me.
You’re both serious enablers of this addiction :)If I lived closer to OR.I’d be a regular at the Wacky Range!
JTinAL
JTinAL
You and Vince… HHMMM.. well I guess it’s just a matter of time…
Notice that Volvo even sold his long time favorite “go to” gun the HW97.. I sold my HW77 and TX200!!! Those have got to be three of the best springers out there.. Once one has tasted the joy of PCP shooting, it’s very difficult to shoot a springer with any recoil.. YOU JUST DON’T WANT TO!!! ask Kevin!!
The Marauder seems to fill a void, a large void.. that you two, like millions of others, fit into…
Hey, just move.. life is short.. eat the sweets first.. the bitters will taste better!!
B.B.
So, if it turns out that CPH are the only accurate pellet in the Marauder, what kind of barrel cleaning schedule would you recommend? Every 1,000 shots, 5,000, 10,000 or when it stops shoot accurate?
I’ve been told to just do it after every 500 shots or so, and that is just to much for me, so I never use CPH, unless the wind is real bad and I’m shooting over 35 yards… what do you think?
Wayne,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
Wayne,
You’re an enabler.
I still pick up a springer occasionally but the AA S410 gets shot twice as much.
Are you lubing your pellets that you shoot in pcp’s?
kevin
BB,
I’m looking at the Marauder now — it seems to offer some advantages over most rimfires at 50 yards.
I don’t understand the reference to Remington selling cheaper ammo to Academy than gun stores. I don’t know of an Academy here, but I have seen no difference between same branded/labelled ammo bought at different times and places, including the evil big W.
It seems strange that Remington would risk its reputation that way, but no so strange that a gun shop owner would make such a statement, being unable to compete on volume with the likes of Academy, Walmart, etc.
I can imagine that a gun shop owner might not carry, for example, Core-Lokts, just because they can’t match the price of Walmart or X Sporting Good’s chain. To justify their position, some would go so far as to say that their ammo is not that “cheap” stuff at the Mega-Mart. They do the same thing with low-end shotguns — alleging Remington and Mossberg make big-store specials out of Chinese pot metal.
You may already know how I feel about these people:).
BB,
Glad to see you still speak well of the Centerpoint. Looks like you got to test the all weather capabilities of both the scope and the gun. This should encourage those deep woods varmint hunters. I see you use a professional grade pellet seater. Is that a 5.362g Bic Craminator?
-Chuck
Wayne,
I clean only when accuracy suffers.
B.B.
B.B.
Nice shooting. I had never thought of consistency in accuracy as a separate quantity; the gun is accurate or not. Is there a physical reason why a rifle would tend to shoot better groups but more erratically than another rifle which is more consistent? Maybe the more erratic rifle is just less accurate and the good groups are part of random variation. Like you said, it might be just a matter of time before the Marauder produces a super group.
The Marauder reminds me of a passage in an Irish comic novel about the ideal car that these two characters were dreaming about: “An interior so big that you need a compass to navigate; cushions so soft that you need a life preserver….Eeeeee.”
I had thought that valve lock was an open and shut phenomenon. But to produce inaccuracy, I suppose the valve can stick a little but still permit a shot, yes?
All, on the general subject of barrel accuracy, I found an explanation of the Savage AccuStock. Apparently, the stock squeezes the action only from all sides which is something they do with benchrest rifles, but the barrel itself is free-floating. Sounds good to me. An AccuStocked rifle did very well on a recent test, but the shooter could not really measure a difference from the accuracy of the old Savage rifles.
Wayne, the Crosman Premiers don’t seem to offer anything to offset the dangers of leading a bore and forcing a cleaning. The very thought of messing with the crown of a nice-shooting rifle like the Marauder gives me the creeps.
Matt61
Chuck,
Yep, the Bic would be a pellet seater with many airguns, but the Marauder doesn’t need one. The pellets just drop into the chambers freely.
And you may recall that I used the Marauder on a day that was so bad all my blued guns rusted by the time I got home. The Marauder didn’t even need a wipedown!
B.B.
Matt 61,
Valve lock does not mean the gun doesn’t shoot. While it can be as bad as that, valve lock usually means the gun shoots slower than you expect it to.
So, at 50 yards with each new shot going faster by 10-30 f.p.s., you get vertical stringing. At 20 yards you’ll never see it, but at 50 yards it becomes as clear as day.
Once the gun is in the power band it starts putting all the pellets where you expect them to go. That’s the accurate part. Then, after you fall off the power curve at the end of the charge, the gun starts to string again.
The trick is to know the pressure range at which the gun is in the power curve and to make sure it is always in that pressure range. Put in too much air and the gun slows down and starts stringing.
B.B.
Matt,
I probably saw the same Accustock review. The current Savage attitude is impressive. Over the last few years they’ve improved almost every weakness and/or turned it into a virtue. Accutrigger and Accustock are big items, but what they don’t even push are a nice magazine design (if you like detatchables), moving the bolt release, streamlining the barrel nut, etc. At this rate, I can see the luxury makers adding barrel nuts:). I even noticed there’s a varmint special with 60d bolt throw. And all still ugly as sin, except possibly the American Classic:).
BB,
I’m sure you’ve answered this somewhere before on other rifles but my memory does not serve today…Is the pressure gauge on the Marauder (or any other rifle) consistent enough or graduated enough to be of any use to tell when the power curve is beginning to fall off? I already know I can’t rely on my ability to count pellets and using a chrony does get annoying at times. You’ve already shed light on the differences between gauges but is the one gauge relatively consistent to make a judgment or does it change on each fill?
Kevin,
The end of the barrel appears to be missing. There is no slot/ holes where the front sight would be attached. The end appears to be roughly sawed or ground down as if it were broken at some point. My cousin and I tried lubing it with some Pellgunoil and we got the little bits of plastic. We thought that my nephew had put Airsoft BBs it some how. May just have to put a muzzle brake on it and live with a short barrel.
BB – My dad is quite the collector. I think he talked the owner down from $10. It is in really bad shape, though. There is a lot of rust damage and the stock is scratched. The SN is 12514. Do you think that it is something that I should send off to a professional, or take on as a first tune?
BB,
This rifle really has my attention and I am strongly considering one.
As a newbie to PCP’s, I am still learning. Is the Marauder regulated?
I notice that I am able to get good 5 shot groupswith my Theoben Rapid 7, but the POI changes over the power curve. Did you notice if this occurred with the Marauder? Have you had this happen with other (regulated or unregulated )PCPs?
Thanks,
Wayne W
Randy-in-VA,
Quit shooting the fwb 124. The little bits of plastic are more than likely the remnants of the seal. FWB 124 seals are notorious for deteriorating. If the plastic that’s coming out are parts of the seal you risk doing significant harm to the gun.
You didn’t ask me about tuning the gun yourself or sending it off but I’ll comment anyway. Since it appears to you that the barrel has been sawed off at the end and the gun isn’t shooting now, it’s difficult to determine if the gun can be accurate. Before spending money on a tuner I would vote for tuning it yourself. The money spent on a tuner may be lost to the inaccurate barrel. My two cents.
kevin
Waynew (Wayne W),
I’m new to this pcp thing too but let me take a shot.
I’ll let B.B. speak to the Marauder being regulated but all the other reports I’ve read say this gun is unregulated.
poi will change on regulated and unregulated pcp’s. The valve lock B.B. is talking about in todays article, caused by overfilling the Marauder, undoubtedly caused his shots to be low because of the lower air pressure. Once the gun hits its’ optimum power curve you have a string of shots that will be accurate and then the air pressure drops and so will your shots. A regulated gun typically provides a longer shot string. Here’s a great article that B.B. did on the power curve of a pcp that helped me understand the answer to your question:
/blog/2008/12/
kevin
Volvo, four things are holding me back:
1) All that pumping. And pump I would – scuba tanks strike me as cheating!
2) The velocity variation – many shots aren’t in the ‘sweet spot’ and the pellets start walking at long ranges.
3) The cost. I can easily spend more than that if I spread it out. But all at ONCE?!?!?! OUCH!
4) From everything I hear, too damned easy to shoot. I’d loose the last weenie excuse I’ve got for poor marksmanship!
Vince,
Did you copy my reasons for not getting a pcp from 6 months ago? I think they’re identical.
If you’re not ready for a pcp you’re not ready. But, like you, I needed better reasons and couldn’t come up with them so I succumbed. Here’s what I learned when I used the same reasons that you outlined:
1-“All that pumping”. If you pump your pcp you’ll normally find that after the first fill, re-filling your pcp to its’ ideal takes two or three strokes on the “bike pump” per shot. One cock on a springer. Effort is similar but all the effort is up front with a pcp whereas a springer the work is constant throughout your shooting session. A tank makes it go away for a pcp. It never goes away for a springer. A tank cheating? I’m a cheater. I learned I’d rather be shooting with the little time I have instead of cocking a springer or pumping a pcp. Personal choice.
2-Velocity variation. Once you find the performance curve (power curve) of your choosen pcp, you fill to that level and shoot down to the level where it falls off the curve. No loss of poi unless you choose to shoot beyond the sweet spot and can do so by holding over.
3-Cost. Yes the initial outlay for a fine pcp is generally larger than the initial outlay for a fine springer (the Marauder may change this). BUT, the resale of newer pcp’s is greater than the resale of springers in general. For the past 6 months I’ve seen some fine springers sit on the classifieds price drop after price drop while average pcp’s sell regularly and finer pcp’s are fought over. I wouldn’t go so far as to say the average pcp is an investment but recovering most if not all of your cost in a pcp is not unusual if you do want to sell. So what is the real cost?
4-“Too easy to shoot accurately.” This is a genuine reason/excuse. They are easy to be accurate with. My taste for springers has definately been tainted.
kevin
B.B.
How many times did you recharge the gun for the tests? How many shots did you get on the power curve? What was the actual fill pressure after you found the the pressure guages were off, 3000 or 2500? What pressure did you refil? Will you try the 16 grn Eun Jins & report the results.
Mahalo
Scott
B.B.,
I forgot to ask which guage should we follow when filling the gun, the tanks or the guns?
Scott
Seems to shoot as well as a $1800 Daystate. I think the accuracy might improve in the 750 to 850 fps range. You never know what’s going to be the magic pellet until you try them all. Give the mods a while and they’ll tweak every ounce of performance out of her.
But what do I know, I put that stupid safety back in my 1377. Three springs and several metal balls later I got it back togather. I guess I lost my touch. Luckily, bick lighter springs and certain pull chains give you the much needed quanity of materials to work with. 10 to 15 coils I recommend. 10-12 is what I like. Smooth, quiet and safe.
So BB, when you get your pride and joy done, the Diana 27, you should show her off in a nice video about the Gaylord Artillery Hold.
Bg farmer,
Ugly = Savage
My very first .22 rimfire was a Savage Stevens that looked to have been made from the proverbial ugly stick. It was a single shot bolt with the loading area covered on the top. You needed to help the cartridge along with your finger to line it up with the barrel. Other than one kid who had to pull a knob to cock his bolt, I was on the bottom of the rimfire pile. The kids with the Glenfields 60’s really gave me a feeling of inadequacy. Later in life I had that same feeling again when I watched my first movie with Mr. Holmes and now I have it when I read about Wayne’s ever increasing airgun collection.
Anywho, I have to admit the new Savage’s have caught my attention, but I think I’ll wait until someone notices the logo and the name, and changes it to something more politically correct. : )
Volvo
CJr,
Yes, the gauge is accurate enough to use. The numbers don’t have to be correct for the needle to land in the same place every time.
B.B.
Randy,
It’s perfect for a self-tune.
B.B.
Wayne,
No reg. The POI doesn’t seem to change.
I’ve not seen it change with a regulated gun. But with an unregulated gun, it can.
B.B.
Scott,
I recharged the gun between 12 and 20 times in all the testing to date. I refilled the gun to 2500 psi on my pressure gauge, which was the point at which the first shot was at the beginning of the power curve.
I refilled to the same pressure–because to do otherwise would be insane.
I got about 30 shots on the power curve. W#ait until I do the velocity testing and you will see what they are.
I have no plans to try the Eun Jin pellets at this time.
B.B.
Scott,
Forget the gauge reading until you chronograph the gun and relate that to the gauge you are using. No number means anything until you relate it to performance through the chronograph.
AFTER you know how high to fill the gun from the tank’s gauge, you always use it. Use the gun’s gauge as a rough estimate of how long until you need to refill.
B.B.
Volvo,
You know the saying: Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes all the way to the bone:).
I’m not offended by the logo (fan of Chief Wahoo, what do you expect), but if it will make you lefties happy, they can put one of my ancestors on there:). How much outrage would a bedecked Angle, for example, engender? It would be an ironic, sad commentary on our society if a gunmaker was brought down by PCness, given all the other forces arrayed against them.
ajvenom,
I agree to a lower velocity. Crosman is sending me an updated valve that I will install and then tune the rifle down to 875-900 f.p.s. with heavies.
The artillery hold video is in the works. The 27 would be a great one to use.
B.B.
Kevin,
Thanks for the link to that article. I think I may be trying to squeeze out too many shots out of my 280 cc bottle? I have been getting about 35 to 40 shots where the velocity stays between 820 to 840 fps, but the poi still seems to change over the string.
Wayne W
B.B.
Okay, how about the opening shot in the war: accuracy of Marauder vs. S410? >:-) The test of the S410, as I recall, was somewhat compromised by wind. I infer from the post that the Marauder is comparable. Is that right?
Kevin, here are some more rapidly diminishing reasons against pcps. (I'm sure the Marauder can handle it.) The first is the distinction between the best rifle and the best tool for the job. For long-range, high-power shooting, the Marauder is tough to beat, but, for example, for indoor shooting by one who doesn't want the hassle of a scuba tank, it's got drawbacks. Alas, until I figure out a way to get more range time, the Marauder starts to look to me like using a Porsche to go down the block.
The second thing, related, is the purpose of accuracy. If you want to get pellets on target, then the PCP is the way to go. If you want to build skill, then your springer has got to win.
BG_Farmer and Volvo, it could be that the source of the Savage accuracy is not even really due to the trigger and the stock. I've heard, from different sources, that one cause is the barrel nut which was originally responsible for the rifle looking ugly. (They since have apparently concealed it.) Somehow this nut tightened and stabilized everything. The second is some way of producing uniform headspacing in the manufacturing process. The Tac Ops firm which produces super expensive Tango 51 rifles for the LAPD SWAT team determined that headspacing was the critical factor in accuracy, often overlooked, which allowed military guns to have surprising accuracy despite loose fitting. This concept is the center of their rifle which costs about ten times the Savage. So, while good, it's possible that the AccuTrigger and AccuStock are just refinements.
On the subject of looks, I believe that I must be missing a gene for this. All rifles look pretty much the same to me. Sure the wood and metal finish can be impressive, and I would say that the Marauder is a really beautiful rifle. Otherwise, especially in the case of bolt-action guns, the shape looks pretty similar to me. One other feature that is more a matter of function than aesthetics is that apparently the Savage rifles are the only ones with the bolt handle placed directly above the trigger for convenience and a faster bolt cycle. With the enlarged grasping ball of the sniper version, working the bolt is a lot of fun.
As for the name, it was the name of the founder so we can't really deny him that. Admittedly the chief's head is kind of out-of-step with the times, but in the debate about supposedly racist logos, it has seemed strange to me that logos which are supposed to be denigrating are being used to represent things that are supposed to be sources of pride. Why would the Savage company elevate an object of contempt (if racism is really at work here) into the symbol of their product? It doesn't make sense to me and seems to be a very complicated affair. Admittedly, the chief's head in conjunction with the Savage name doesn't look too good. But I can't say I lose much sleep over it. 🙂
Matt61
Wayne,
Here’s a thought. Shoot a group at 50 yards and keep shooting until the group starts to open. The shot just before that is the last one of your usable shot string.
However, you may suffer from reservoir-influenced shot movement. If so, it doesn’t matter what you do, you can’t prevent it.
B.B.
Vince,
“Volvo, four things are holding me back:”
“1) All that pumping. And pump I would – scuba tanks strike me as cheating!”
This one I tackled awhile back for Kevin and I think he did well rehashing it. Unless you only shoot CO2, effort goes into every shot with any pellet rifle. With a PCP, you just do all the work up front. I use a hand pump and don’t mind the effort, cheaper than CO2 and worth the little exertion. (Still no where as much effort as pumping a Daisy 880 ten times for every full power shot or cocking a Patriot)
Unless you’re actually a hot 110 lb girl, in which case PM me. : )
p.s. Get a 4 stage pump unless a 2000psi rifle.
“2) The velocity variation – many shots aren’t in the ‘sweet spot’ and the pellets start walking at long ranges.”
Ah, this one is the easiest as Kevin hints. All the PCP’s I’ve had so far prefer less than a full fill, and you can stop at any number below that magic spot. Think of the pressure gauges like the fuel gauge on your cars gas tank. When it gets low, stop shooting and refill. If you do need to take an emergency shot and she is low, move up one mil dot. But you will find with a hand pump it is better to top off sooner than later. This also gives you the most consistent shots.
POI with my Cyclone does not change until I go less than 120 bar. If indoors, I can stretch that to 100 bar.
“3) The cost. I can easily spend more than that if I spread it out. But all at ONCE?!?!?! OUCH!”
It is false economy to try and replace a single high end PCP with Springer’s, which I did. First, I needed over a dozen so I could cover all the power ranges. Then, to make them smoother (more PCP like) I sent three of them to Paul Watts at $265 a crack and two to Rich in Mich for a bit less. Now I have a wonderful PCP and money left over.
“4) From everything I hear, too damned easy to shoot. I’d loose the last weenie excuse I’ve got for poor marksmanship!”
It is no easier than a 22 rimfire, CO2, or multi or single pump pneumatic. The difference is if you are good you will see it. If not, well check some of Wayne’s results with his S410 and you’ll feel better. : ) (I think he uses a load of # 4 shot)
It really could not be simpler, and since you seem to be a smart and talented individual, I would guess you’ll be posting tips for use on the PCP world.
How does that sound?
Volvo
Bg farmer and Matt,
I was only joking about the Savage logo, but I may write my congressman just for fun. I will suggest my surname for the company. Who knows?
Remember that the Volvo is only camo so I can fit in The Man’s world. Pretty sure I’m the only Volvo owner who doesn’t wear a seat belt. I also bought it because of the 300 HP and six speed manual. I really couldn’t take clients around in a Classic Muscle car.
Matt,
I agree with your analogy on indoor shooting, that is why I like adjustable power. On low I can get 100 shots out of my Cyclone at 14 ft lbs which is plenty of smack at ten meters.
Volvo
Volvo,
The parting “shot” at Wayne in your response to Vince will quickly become a classic. LOL!!
Watch out, Wayne isn’t too far away with his S410.
A load of #4 shot…I can’t stand it. You were missed!
kevin
Volvo,
I knew you were kidding…hope you didn’t think I was making an ad hominem attack by calling you a lefty:).
You can use my F150 “farm truck” for clients. It could put you over the top on a sale, due to their thinking you need the money:).
Matt,
The barrel nut is the “secret” to making an economical assembly accurate. Funny someone should charge more for what is often ridiculed. You should know me well enough to realize that ugly doesn’t stop me from liking something:).
Thanks B.B.
How many shot would one expect from a low pressure fill of 2000 PSI @ the same power setting. I assume the power curve would be more like the Discovery @ that fill correct? From what I read in the earlier report the velocity does not change if you lower the fill pressure you just get a lower # of consistent shots on the power curve.
Scott
Could you have reduced the valve lock when filled to the higher pressure by adjusting the velocity setting higher or were you already @ the highest setting?
Isn't the valve lock directly correlated to the velocity setting which in turn effects fill pressure @ said velocity?
So your gun experienced valve lock with a 3000 psi fill @ the velocity setting you had for the pellets you were shooting. You could have reduced the lock if you increased the velocity setting @ that fill pressure even though it would not have been the ideal velocity for the pellets. Does that sound right?
If I wanted to shoot 16 grn pellets @ the same velocity you were shooting the 10.5 grn pellets I would have to increase the velocity setting & fill pressure to get the same number of shots on the power curve correct? At that setting if I shot a lighter pellet it would shoot higher than its' optimum velocity & be inaccurate.
Scott
Randy-in-VA, Kevin,
If the end of the Feinwerkbau 124’s barrel was sawn off with a hacksaw, it really needs chucked into a lathe to face the end and recut the barrel crown. IF the front sight grooves are missing, they will need to be either recut with a milling machine or abandoned altogether for a scope. The 124 needs a special rather unique scope mount to work properly. Sportsmatch (in England) used to offer the correct mounts. I don’t know if they’re stil available.
The plastic bits are most certainly the remnants of ta disintigrating piston seal. Do not shoot the rifle until it has been repaired or you risk damaging it permanently–if it isn’t already. You never know what you’ve bought until you open it up.
The pellgun oil is exactly the wrong kind of lube for a spring piston gun like a FWB 124.
As far as repairing it yourself, bear in mind that the 124 has about the longest spring ever used in an airgun. A mainspring compressor is an absolute necessity to reassemble the gun–and a really good idea to disassemble the gun if you want to maintain any sort of contol over the endcap.
Parts (piston seal, breech seal, and mainspring) for 124’s can still be obtained from Jim Maccari:
http://www.airguns.citymax.com/page/page/251483.htm
Make sure you replace the spring while it’s apart. There’s no good reason to use the original spring.
Hope this helps.
Derrick
Kevin,
I like to believe I was of some value to Wayne on his journey, or at least helped lighten his wallet with information about the yellow, gunbroker, etc. But the student soon became the master, and all that is left is for me to encourage him to practice the craft.
Volvo works in many strange and mysterious ways.
P.S. I still think he should go S410 vs. 499 with me. Yes I know the cost is 10 to 1, but I would guess that is the right ratio. If it were just Bill Gates I would ask for a lesser rifle, but this is Wayne!
Lemme clarify the pumping vs. tank remark…
1) There’s just something inherently right about using your own energy to send the pellet downrange. That’s what springers do, and that’s why I’d hafta pump if I got a PCP.
2) Excersize. Woah! I just did 150 reps without realizing it! And I HATE excersizing!
No, Volvo, I’m not a ‘hot 110 lb girl’. Mass-wise, you could make 2 of those outa me and still have some fryin’ fat left over…
On a good day, I hit around .600 ctc avg with my ruger 10/22 with trigger mod and stock savage markII G. All scoped 3-9x32AO
I have seen articles of stock savage mark II BVTS avg. .250 ctc at 50 yards with target ammo and a skilled shooter.
The savage accutrigger is about the best off the shelf sporting trigger I’ve tried out.
The Disco still seems to be a good valued air rifle when you really look at the power and performance your get for the average airgun user.
Vince,
We are on the same page as far being the provider of the air. However, I do not begrudge old men the right to use a scuba tank. My guess is it’s easy to lose your dentures when the pumping gets fast and furious.
Two young ladies sounds nice, but I would make better use the extra ala Sir Mix-a-lot.
Scott,
If you need 920 ft per second out of a 16 gr pellet you should go with the .22 cal version not the .177 that BB tested.
Valve lock just means the rifle is overfilled and there is too much pressure for it to work properly. Have you ever left a CO2 rifle out in the hot sun too long and it did not fire at all until the pressure went down? Same basic idea.
BB-
Not sure if this is the right place to post my success story but… Got my disco in .22 yesterday from Tim at Mac1. From the box i was very impressed; my gun had a walnut stock and the bluing was pretty even. I couldn’t shoot yesterday, which wasn’t too bad because I just got my mtm predator rest and BSA 4-16×40 scope today. The gun was sent filled so all I had to do to shoot was, shoot. I set up the gun in the rest and put a piece of cardstock with a sharpie dot in the center and JSB exact 15.8s. After I got a scope set up, (more on that later), I zeroed in quickly and shot my first group. At 20 yards, my five shot group measured…
0.0″ c-t-c. All I can say is wow! I am very impressed with this rifle. The rest is very nice too ( that group wasn’t me).
Now to the one problem. I have the rings your using on the marauder and could not figure them out ( not too good of me but can’t ask for everything). I optically centered my scope in the mirror ( had to adjust left a lot) and then mounted it on the rifle. At about 10 feet I was shooting a foot left. I woult adjust the front ring all the way to the left, and the rear ring all the way to the right, and my rifle shot in the exact same spot! I could not figure it out so after remounting my scope and tinkering for quite some time, I gave up. I put my ol’ crosman 9x scope and 1 piece non-adjustable rings and achieved the above the group.
Thanks everyone for all your help recently, I am very happy with my set up, and have you guys to thanks!
Vince/Volvo,
I agree that a sense of personal effectiveness and satisfaction is garnered by using a spring gun versus the other types.
Further, the act of cocking the gun before each shot is psychlogically completely different from doing all the “cocking” (viz. pumping) up front and then shooting 30-100 shots.
The spring gun attracts a more deliberate, evaluative type of shooter, I suspect, and one who is more kinesthetically oriented/process oriented than the average shooter.
I enjoy the spring P1 gun in part because when my friends come over to shoot it they are very challenged, whereas they all can shoot the CO2 pistols and PCP rifles. At 10 yards it is pretty easy to hit pellet on pellet with a Theoben Rapid, but more challenging and thus more satisfying with a spring rifle.
I find that by shooting different types of airguns I am improving faster (cross training) than by shooting one gun exclusively. The P1 makes CO2 pistols easy to shoot in comparison, and the 54 makes CO2 and PCP rifles easy to shoot as well.
Dr G,
We are in agreement that a Springer is a more disciplined pursuit.
I have retained a Springer for when I feel the need to be challenged and rewarded by a self contained rifle. Honestly however, I had shot most of my Springer’s so much that I could get groups on par with any of the PCP’s I’ve owned since I practice mostly at modest distances. They can become every bit as boring, which is why my HW97 often sat in the rack for weeks. Five shots, one hole. OH boy, who would of guessed? The only Spring rifle I felt ever kicked my butt was BSA Lightning XL in .25 cal. Try as I might; I could not get it to shoot.
As far as pistols are concerned, I am challenged by any power plant even at moderate ranges. I have tried a P-1, Hurricane, 747, HB 22, few CO2 not to mention my Smith and Wesson .357, Ruger 9mm, Taurus .38, Browning, etc and the targets always appear as if I was using a load of # 4’s. Oddly enough my best pistol groups are from a Ruger Single Six that can shoot .22 shorts, Longs, LR or Magnums. If anyone is cares, I would be very interested in a shrouded PCP pistol that could manage 12-14 ft lbs in .22 cal.
Now back to long guns – sometimes a rifle is more of a work tool and this is one of the areas where I believe a PCP excels. While each Springer was like a wonderful lady, finicky and requiring its own delicate hold, a PCP is more like a good drinking buddy.
Also its needs are simple: – air and a pellet. Lastly it is steady and dependable, worthy of any task that you assign it.
Vince should at least experience one. Sometimes you need a boy’s night out.
Volvo
Kevin,
I found this long lost note to “pattern the shotguns” .. so on my usual trip for supplies I piled a bunch of guns in the truck…. and went for “supplies”… I forgot the camera.. so I’ll email you a report… it’s really too long for here..
and your PCP comment to Vince was very well done..
Matt61,
After the shotguns… a little report on the Howa 1500 .223.
I balanced the Howa with the 6-24×56 Nighteater on an 8″ long sandbag rest, and settled to finish the 200 yard test on 4 different 55gr ammo..
First, was Remington FMJ-BT bronze… 20 rounds made a 6 -1/2″ group, with 7 in 3″ group in or around the bull.
Next, was Remington UMC MC L223R3, which turned out to be best of the day.. a nice 20 shot group of 4-1/4″ with 12 in the 2″ in or around the bull.
Then, American Eagle Tactical FMJ XM193c. These were did the worst, 9″ group of 20 with only 4 in or around the bull.
Last, the Russian lacquered ones, they gave a 20 shot 8″ group with 6 in or close to the bull..
The Howa is for real, with quality reloaded ammo and a good rest those groups could be cut in half, and the cool thing is, it shoots so flat, I bet there is about 1/2″ difference between 100 and 200 yards, I really could tell no difference with the ammo and rest I used..
Volvo,
Boy send me for supplies and a stop at the range.. AND a job to shoot those .38 super for you.. (the 8″ barrel Dan Wesson .357 mag revolver has become my favorite handgun), but anyway.. turn my back a minute and..
I find buckshot is my butt!!
I better get a book in my pants like I did in school and when I stayed out to late!
I can’t help it if I’m a better shopper than a shooter!! (Yes I have you to thank for hooking me into the yellow and gunbroker)
But.. I’m up for your contest.. one for ten.. the Air Arms S410 has no sights, so I have to use my 10-50×60 Nikko.. I don’t know if I can make out the targets at long distance of 10 yards with it, but I’ll do my best:) You’ll be using cork balls in the 499 of course!!
Wacky Wayne
Vince,
Blahh… blahh… blahh…
With all the repair work your doing for me, you could have a couple nice PCPs by now..
Maybe I should send you one to "repair" and test (with a scuba tank & fill yoke).. I've got a Webley Raider .177 without a LDC ..you could make one for me, and test it with it, and without it… measuring how much lead dust it collects:)
Then, we will see if you want to send it back to me!!
Wacky Wayne
Wayne,
Thanks for the report and nice shooting. Maybe you should go heavier with our ammo. I started out with 55 gr. and got so-so results. I pushed the envelope by going up to 60 gr. and things remained the same. Then, partly through a chart shared through the blog, I went up to 69 gr. which was supposed to be the limit of the 1:9 twist rate. This worked fabulously. Maybe even heavier is better. The 1000 yard studs shooting the AR-15 favor a 77 gr. bullet. It really depends on your twist rate.
Ah, I’m jealous of the 200 yard range. Back in Hawaii, I tried shooting at a gong at 270 yards and couldn’t hit at all.
Matt61
I’ll concede this much – I have no affection left for springer pistols, at least the normal break-barrel style. That Diana 5 Wayne sent me to work on sorta sealed it in my book.
If I trace a line from the top of the rear sight to the top of the front (rear sight at its lowest), I find that the barrel points DOWN relative to the sight line. Yet it still shoots high for me. I’ve noticed this with almost every stinkin’ springer pistol I’ve tried, and near as I can tell it all has to do with the gun recoiling before the pellet even starts moving. It seems to rotate the gun back in my hand (and I do not have particularly weak hands) and there doesn’t seem to be anything I can do about it.
Hi BB.
You said that you chose the 10.5 grain CP because it was the heaviest pellet. Is that in .177 0r .22? 10.5 grains doesn’t seam too heavy for a .22 cal.
Emil
Emil, you’re correct. Just about the lightest .22 lead pellet is the RWS Hobby, weighing in at 11.9gr. The 10.5gr CP is a .177, and is considered a heavy pellet in that caliber.
Scott,
I would imagine that I’d lose 5-8 shots at a 2,000 fill.
B.B.
Scott,
Valve lock is correlated with velocity, but it isn’t a direct relationship. So trying to increase velocity would be the wrong thing to do to fix valve lock. The right thing to do is to correct the valve lock–so the valve doesn’t lock up at the pressure you are trying to fill.
I will be attempting to explain this relationship later in the Marauder blog reports, but it is a complex relationship that some folks find hard to understand.
B.B.
Jersey John,
Before you go crazy adjusting the scope mounts, take a look at the rifle. Take the scope and rings off and look at the alignment of the barrel. Is it pointed to the left?
To shoot a foot to the left at 10 feet, the barrel must be so far off that you can see it. The Disco has a barrel band halfway down the barrel. Loosen that single set screw and also the screw in the top of the receiver and gently push the muzzle to the right. I’m guessing the barrel will jump into the correct position because it is so far out of whack.
Once you have it aligned straight as close as you can see, lock those two setscrews down again.
That can happen in shipment and it’s always a good thing to check before mounting a scope.
B.B.
Elim,
If you had clicked on the link I embedded in the report it would have opened up a second window that took you to the pellet page. You would have seen that 10.5-grain Crosman premiers are .177 pellets.
The light gray letters in my reports are hot links to product pages on the Pyramyd AIR website. I usually link the first mention of a product in every report.
B.B.
This comment chain makes a great blog post in its own right. “Merits of PCP, Springers, and CO2 Air Guns”.
Bb will do. The only reason I doubt it’s the barrel is because the POI was well within the adjustibility of my other scope w/ non-adjustable mounts
John,
LOOK, but don’t adjust anything unless it needs it. As I said, you should be able to SEE if it’s off.
The B-Square mounts do take some work, but they out-perform all other adjustable mounts on the market, hands-down. I did a 3-part report on how they work and how to adjust them. It’s here:
/blog/2007/7/b-square-adjustable-scope-mounts-part-3/
B.B.
B.B.,
Can the Marauder be decocked and then recock without causing double feeding the breech? Thanks.
Alan
John……
B-Squares are really squirrely to get the hang of. Takes a couple times to get used to them.
Don’t overtighten the set screws or they will strip. Also the closer together the mounts are the faster they adjust ….that can make them very touchy.
I noticed that with mine there was still a little torque somewhere when they were tightened up..the poi moved a little for the first few shots before it settled in and got solid.
twotalon
Jersey John,
I have a set of B-Square adjustables. I wrestled with them for a while before I learned how they worked. I found them to be counter-intuitive during adjustment.
If BB’s suggestion of checking barrel alignment doesn’t reveal anything try adjusting the mounts without a scope in the rings and the top ring off so you can see the movement of things in the bottom.
I haven’t seen every scope ring but I think with other scope rings if you tighten the right screw it pulls the scope to the right.
You would think that tightening the B-Square right screw would move the scope to the right, also, but I don’t think it does. I think you should see that tightening the right screw pushes against a gimbal(?)inside that causes the the mount to move to the left and not right as you think it would. The top scope ring sits on this gimbal and moves with it. This may explain why you keep shooting left.
Anyway, try looking at it inside as you make adjustments and see if this holds true for you.
Also, make sure the screws are in the indentations in the side of the gimbal. They slip out easily and could be throwing things off.
When you make adjustments you have to do it in very small amounts in order for the screws to stay in those indentations.
-Chuck
Jersey John,
Another thing I did with the B-Squares is look down the outside top of the scope and see how it was aligned with the barrel.
I first aligned the scope to be in-line with the barrel then made adjustments from there, and I could see which way the scope was moving and tell if it was going the way I wanted it to.
-Chuck
Can anyone give me some test results for a Benjamin superstreak and Walther falcon hunter in a .22?
Red,
Here’s the 3rd part of the series B.B. did on the superstreak. Do access the other parts, in order to read them in order, click on part 1 at the top of the article then go back and click on part 2 etc.
/blog/2007/12/the-benjamin-sheridan-super-streak-part-3/
kevin
Red,
Here’s the 3 part series that B.B. did on the Walther Talon Magnum (which is the .177 caliber version of the Walther Talon Hunter in .22 caliber):
/blog/2008/11/walther-talon-magnum-part-3/
Here’s the 4 part series B.B. did on the .25 caliber Walther Talon Hunter:
/blog/2008/6/walther-25-caliber-falcon-hunter-part-4/
kevin
Hello guys,
Great review there mate, very well organised and detailed. Its given me a good idea of what this new PCP is all about.
Havent seen any of these for sale in the UK just yet. But I will probably see one at the range in time.
I run an S410K .177 for pest controll, Personally I think its a great rifle for the price. If I were really out there for the best rifle I could get it would cost double the price and I would only get slightly better accuracy and a quieter action. So from what I have seen this pcp seems to give everything the shooter would need for a good price. That in my books is what is needed. Looks are only important to those who are bothered with it. e.g. the SA80A2.. ugly as hell, but a superb combat rifle. I dont personally find this rifle to be that aesthetically pleasing.. But its seems to give good accuracy even at 50 yards which is what I would consider to be the maximum range for airguns (shooter dependant). Ofcourse over the pond your power restrictions are lower which is good for longer range shots having more punch.. But less shots per charge and a louder muzzel report. Personally I find an 11.5ft/lbs airgun is adequate for up to 50 yard shots.. Anything further than that I switch to one of my rimfires which are good out to 150 yards.. and if I cant get within 150 yards of a rabbit I pack up and go home!
Reguards,
Harry aka deadeyedick.
B.B.
Oh oh. I happened to remove my ear muffs while shooting my Daisy 747 and heard a pronounced hiss after cocking the gun. The hiss is sustained. I also see that some of my shots at 20 feet seem to make very light impressions in the paper. My guess is the seals are damaged which seems a bit odd since I’ve only had the pistol for a little over a year and have only put a few thousand shots on it. When it’s not shooting, it’s in its case, so there’s no hard usage.
Is it worth oiling the wiper or shall I just send it for repairs? Do I send it to Daisy? Does PA do this kind of work?
Vince, was it you saying that your pistol groupings look like buckshot? There is a simple solution: Bring the target closer. 🙂
All, on the subject of pcps vs. springers, perhaps Obi Wan Kenobi has something to say on this subject. “Your lightsaber (springer) is an elegant weapon requiring finesse and skill, not as crude or random as a blaster (pcp)”….
deadeyedick, welcome as a visitor from the land of Air Arms. You can see that these rifles are a big hit. I can see 50 yards as a limit for airgun hunting. But I expect for target shooting, the Marauder could hit pretty reliably out to 100 yards. Have you any experience with the SA80? The reports, like for the M-16, are wildly divergent. Some claim that the SA80 was such a disaster when introduced that it needed to be recalled and extensively modified with results that are mixed. Yet one of the reports claims that the Royal Marines cleaned up on precision shooting with the SA80 at some sort of international special forces competition recently.
Matt61
Buckshot? No, I don’t think I used THAT analogy…
In any case yes, oil the wiper. In fact, you might wanna drench the poop out of it in the hopes of flushing out any garbage that might be causing a problem. I doubt the seals have passed their useful service life this quickly. The old, beat-up 717 I bought used certainly doesn’t have new seals in it – and it’s fine. Except for the barrel, the 717 is the same gun.
If you want to shoot me your email, I’ll send you an exploded diagram and parts/price list of the 747.
vfblovesnancy@yahoo.com
Oh – Matt61 – I forgot to ask – is the hissing coming through the barrel, the cocking slot, or somewhere else? If you can’t tell, you can stick one end of a piece of plastic or rubber tubing in your ear and use the other to locate the hissing noise.
Just don’t stick it in too far. If you do you’ll penetrate your eardrum and your brains will leak out. Then, in a mindless stupor, you’ll take up some inane hobby like airgu… oh, wait, You’re already here. Never mind.
Matt,
Yes, lube the felt right away. This is exactly the kind of leak that will fix.
B.B.
Decocked,
If the Marauder is decocked and then recocked, it will feed a second pellet.
B.B.
Harry(UK),
Useful feedback…I also think 50 yards is a workable limit. I’m with you on the aesthetics, also; the Discovery is more attractive to me, but the battleax comb is what’s in now…at least its not a thumbhole:).
AJ,
Your rimfire stats are what I was talking about — BB’s Marauder seems to match the accuracy of good rimfires with better than avg. ammo. and pellets are relatively cheap and easy to get compared to better grades of rimfire ammo. Plus, its very quiet and downrange safety is even less of a concern, at least in my situation.
UK Harry,
Nice to have your contribution.
Do you favor .177 over .22 cal? I’ve tried a couple 12ft lb rifles in .22 and the pellet always appears visible as it meanders to the target. I would swear a squirrel has the time to take a few more bites, wipe his mouth and then decide to which side he will duck.
When that was combined with the loud crack of the RSW 850 CO2 rifle in .22 no critter at 40-50 yards showed the least fear, quite off putting.
Welcome again,
Volvo
Hey Harry,
Glad to see you. Nice of you to stop by.
Just about everything I’ve learned about ariguns came from the UK Reviecentre.com sight and PA blog. The reviewcentre has quite a few people from around the world stop by and talk about airguns. Now the sight is remodeling a bit.
Harry aka Deadeyedick, I was hoping, if you had some time, to tell people a little about yourself, a first hand view of what it’s like shooting in the UK (FAC and non FAC) and your current airgun/firearm projects. Also, what’s your most favorite airgun and perhaps some insight on some you owned or tried out.
I also hear the UK is the land of FT/HFT shooting. Perhaps you can explain a little on those or share any experiences you have had.
Thanks again,
AJ
Are there any quick fixes to make a Gamo trigger better ? I’ve tried shortening a small metal rod that is often over the trigger adjustment screws and it seems to have worked.
Sorry I referred to it as a small metal rod… Its the end of the trigger spring which is often covering the trigger adjustment screw.
Carter,
Yep get this:
https://charliedatuna.com/GRT-III%20Trigger%20New.htm
It’s a big improvement.
It was reviewed on Pyramyd’s blog here:
/blog/2007/12/testing-the-gamo-whisper-part-6-trigger-job/
Carter, you can remove that spring entirely and you’ll notice a marked decrease in trigger effort. All that spring does is return the trigger blade back to its original position, it doesn’t actually lock the sear or the trip lever in place.
If you get the aftermarket GRT-III trigger mentioned above you’ll be removing that spring anyway. That trigger has the added benefit of being a real ‘two-stage’ trigger.
Carter,
or this:
you will need to copy and paste the link
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1239471053/If+you+like+a+nice+trigger%2C+then+you+can+cross+both+Quest+and+Summit+off+the+list…
I have a GRT-III trigger and like it a lot. Just read about the installation, how it works and possible anti-trap adjustment for some AGs. It was preset real close to what I wanted and easy to install.
I believe there’s a 2 gen version out now.
BB,
One Canadian Website is advertising a “Benjamin Classic 22”-.22 caliber pellet rifle with an advertised velocity of 495 fps. It looks just like the Benjamin Super Streak-Nickel Finish. Could it be the same gun De tuned to meet the requirements of the Canadian Market.If so how would they have done it? Smaller transfer port or weaker spring, or both??.Would appreciate your expert opinion on this.
Thanks
Pete
Vince or anyone,
Is there any help for the Ruger Airhawk? Can it be made quieter (less twangy) and/or smoother? Can the trigger be improved? Etc.
-Chuck
CJr, the AirHawk uses a close copy of the RWS34 action – but the quality of manufacturing is not nearly as good. Or at least from the two examples I’ve had apart.
The last one I had broke its spring right when I decided to sell it (!), and I found out that an old Maccari Tarantula spring I had in my box of old springs fit nicely – and the firing cycle became a lot more civilized. Of course, spring tar would help as well.
Not sure about the trigger, I didn’t get into it enough to tell if it really is a functional clone of the T05 (although I suspect it is). If so, the effort might be reduced with a little polishing in the right places and a lighter spring for the trip lever. I did that on a T05 equipped 54 a little while ago and it seemed to work well.
Pete,
Yes the rifle would be detuned. I think the maximum velocity allowed in Canada to not be classified as firearm is 500 fps.
Have to admit that seems an odd strategy, if in Canada a .25 caliber would be the way to go.
Volvo
Thanks Vince,
Right now a friend is using it. When I get it back I might try to fool around with it until I see I’m getting in over my head. I’m not too afraid of hurting anything because if I did I wouldn’t miss it very much. I’d like to tar it but I’m afraid of the spring. I assume it has to be removed to do it right. Not confident about messing with that.
-Chuck
B.B. and Vince,
Thanks a lot. I had assumed all was lost because when I had a similar leak with my Crosman 1077, I had to send it in. I dumped on the Pellgunoil like you said, and the wiper was soaking it up like a sponge. I suppose when air is blowing in and out of a mechanism at high pressure, it’s easy to dry things out. Vince, thanks for the offer of a parts list, but I wouldn’t know what to do with one. I don’t have a rubber tube, but as far as I could tell, the hissing was loudest near the trigger and possibly a little louder on the left than the right. By the time I finished, the hissing was mixed in with a bubbling sound, so maybe the oil is starting to do its work.
Matt61
Matt61, after doing the oil try cocking it and then firing it as quickly as possible (before all the air leaks out). This gives any contaminants a chance to blow out.
Is your pistol still under warranty, or would you have to pay to have it fixed?
CJr, according to my records the Air Hawk has a preload of around 90lbs when uncocked.
How does the gun shoot otherwise? Is it accurate for you?
Matt,
The oil on the seals and o-rings allows the dirt particles to move along, instead of embed in the soft seal material.
Do what Vince suggested and dry-fire fire your gun rapidly. You will be blasting compressed air over the surface of the seals, hoping to blow off the dirt that has landed there.
B.B.
Pete,
When a manufacturer wants to detune a rifle for a foreign market that has a velocity or power limitation, they don’t just install a weaker mainspring. The federal authorities are wise to that trick and, if they discover that the gun can be put back to full power, they will ban it from importation.
The only reliable way to detune a spring rifle is by de-stroking it. Shortening the piston stroke makes it impossible to obtain greater power from a spring gun by any normal means. Only by increasing the stroke can higher velocity be achieved.
I’m guessing that Crosman has de-stroked the Super Streak for Canada.
B.B.
Vince,
Here’s the short answer to your question about my accuracy with the AirHawk: No, it’s not accurate for me (1/2″ to 3/4″ 5 shot groups at 10m, bean bag bench, a few 1/4″, no clover holers).
Now, here’s the long answer: The AirHawk is my first self bought (and kept) air rifle, so there is some sentimentality built in there. However, it is the most difficult for me to shoot. It’s heavy to me and the scope adds even more weight (or is the reason it’s so heavy). I still believe I could do better with it if I could “tame” it down. The trigger is not consistent, either. About one shot out of, say 10-15, it will fire prematurely when I’m feeling for the second stage. Could be me and not it – not sure.
I took home an open box, demo Gamo Whisper before getting the AH and liked the AH better (??). The Gamo twanged and bucked too much for me. I’ve seen so many contrary reviews, though! I blame the demo abuse.
I can shoot the IZH-61 so much better than the AH even though I dislike the trigger on the 61, too (1/2″ groups, many 1/4″ groups or better, a few clover holers). I have improved some since some of my early posts so I guess I can be trained. I can shoot the Daisy 953 so much better than the 61 even though I hate the trigger on the 953, also (1/2″ groups, a whole lot of 1/4″ groups or better, some clover holers). I scare myself when I shoot the Talon SS. I never dreamed I could be so accurate (never more than 1/4″ or better groups, many many clover holers, very frequent one holers).
Obviously it’s the challenge of the artillery hold that is holding me back, to some extent – a great extent. And for some reason my “shooting platform” is so much more steady with the Talon.
I want to take the trigger from the Talon SS and put it on all three of the other guns. I think that would make a world of difference. At least that’s my current excuse and I’m sticking with it, for now.
-Chuck
The .22 shooting I did was about the best I can do, yet I’ve had the ruger 10/22 mosy of my life about 27 years. Wolf match and I think it’s cci green tag ammo works the best so far. Wolf for distance and green tag for closer distances.
My daisy 953 shoots one hole wonders, but it lacks distance, so I wonder how an 880 would do.
My internally polish, black tar lubed quest 800 (.22 cal) with the GRT-III trigger I’ve had 3 years and no problems. I’ve estimate about 10,000 shots so far. It’s lost some power, yet still performs well. The spring is started to get kinked a bit, so I may order a new one soon.
I love my daisy 22sg, I call it a “poor mans pcp”. It may not have the range, but it is very accurate, near my 953, and about the quietest AG I own. The squirrels stop and listen, now was that a pellet gun I hear, then it’s too late.
Sure the hold has to right on the springer and the multi pumps lack range, but put em all togather and what do you get a pcp.
B.B.,
You said “If the Marauder is decocked and then recocked, it will feed a second pellet. ” Is there a way to prevent that? A cocked gun always makes me uneasy. Thanks.
Alan
Alan,
At any time after firing but before loading the next pellet you can remove the magazine. Just cock the bolt back and remove the mag. Then you can ride the bolt forward and decock the gun.
B.B.
Got the on tArget with the rings, blog helped, I was adjusting backwards. Just went over some more jersey laws and found something great: pellet gun= firearm ( we know that), firearm with silencer = illegal, air gun with silencer = illegal!!! This applies to anything from a talon ss to a marauder, all are silenced firearms!!! WTF I got to move! Anyone know how I can contact Anthony storey?
John
ph 317-374-5679
John,
A question
please about New Jersey and their law about air guns and silencers; more specifically the Talon SS. How dothe define silencer in their draconian gun laws?
CJr,
Funny you should mention going back and forth between your springers and your SS. Got out my Diana 35 and 350 Magnum and proceeded to shoot like Wayne, groups using #4 shot (Thanks Vince). Then I regrouped, started really paying attention, and found that the lack of follow through was the cause of the pattern vs a group.
Practice your artillery hold, you’ll be surprised at how well they shoot. Remember the follow through.
B.B.,
I’ve been thinking about the Marauder and it’s power adjustment feature, that isn’t in a readlly accessable location, and was wondering if it is functioning more like an adjustment that allows one to tune the valve for a specific fill pressure thus optimizing the gun for a specific pellet and the purpose for which the gun is going to be used. Maybe like varying the powder charge when reloading the powder burners?
Mr B.
BB,
I recall you like the crosman 1077 carbine. I used to have one, but it was defective and the warranty expired before I could return it and therefor don’t remember how the gun was. I want to give one to my brother for his birth day, he is not so serious about shooting and just enjoys plinking. Did you have any problems with yours over the years?
Shadow express dude
Yes Mr B., thanks! I believe follow through IS a very important, very necessary step. However, as in my golf game, I just plain forget to do it. I would even go so far as to say I flinch at times. I have even caught myself looking away from the target as I pulled the trigger. I think it’s called concentration, lack of, one each. It’ll be a long time before I get bored with springer one holers.
-Chuck
Mr. B.,
I think you are getting it. Think of the Marauder as a piano. The valve adjustment is simply to get the gun in tune. Once there, no other tuning will do anything but take away from the performance the gun has.
A note can only be played perfectly at one vibration.
B.B.
Anonymous Vasiliy Zaytzev from New Makarov pistol! – Part 1,
Good comment, nice history lesson, good read. I know I sometimes think that the “(x-)bad guys” are not good at what they do when in reality they are. I think that’s called underestimating your opponent.
-Chuck
SED,
I have three 1077s and all are still working–one after 15 years of shooting.
Pellgunoil and always store with a powerlet in the gun.
B.B.
Talon owners,
I’m ready to buy a bi-pod for my Talon SS. The one at Pyramydair has good overall reviews, yet somewhat mixed reviews on sturdiness when fully extended. Is this really an issue and are there other option I should consider for the SS?
-Chuck
I meant to say are there any other bi-pod options I should consider. However, other non bi-pod options would be welcome, also.
-Chuck
B.B. and Vince,
Thanks. There is some hissing today, though perhaps less. I dumped more oil in and will try the rapid dry firing. The warranty is long expired, and I would like to avoid repairs if possible.
All, how about that shooting by the Navy Seals? My plan was a little different. I envisioned using a silenced .50 caliber sniper rifle to shoot off the back of the pirate vessel causing instant sinking. Then, the Navy Seals waiting 30 feet below the surface would have grabbed everyone as they slid into the water. Anyway, things were resolved.
Matt61
Matt,
Have you adjusted the piston head on your 747 recently?
B.B.
About the Soviet/Russian/Warsaw Pact pistols and ammo – most of their military hardware was designed to be manufactured cheaply and efficiently – every thing from planes to tanks to bullets. Who was it that said “There is a certain quality to quantity”.
CJr, your experience with the Air Hawk parallels my own. 1/2-3/4″ at 10 yards? Yup. That’s about all I could get mine to do – on a good day. I took it out back and tried some 60-yard plinking (at a 7″ saw blade), and it was absolutely one of the most frustrating shooting experiences I’ve ever had. I expect a 500fps Delta to be almost impossible at this range, but not a 900fps gun.
Never had a BAM product that was as inconsistent as that thing. And no, even though the old Maccari spring made it feel so much better – it didn’t improve the accuracy one iota.
Vince,
Thanks for the reply. Guess I’ll hang it on my wall as a conversation piece.
-Chuck
CJr,
I’ve got the AirForce bipod which doesn’t get alot of use. Looks really cool, but I guess the Harris Bipod on my 22-250 really has me spoiled. I don’t think I’d buy another one though. Hold that idea and let me take it woodchuck hunting before I say yes or no.
Mr B.
Mr. B-
Pretty sure definition is uniform: tube at muzzle that lessens the report of a firearm. Anyone found in possesion of a firearm silencer is guilty of a crime in the 4th degree. I listed the talon ss because in my opinion it fits the definition, but there is some room for interpretation. Any way, someone with little knoledge of airguns may not know the function of the talon’s or other air rifle’s shroud. It’s a muzzle brake to help ballance my rifle.
Why can’t I spell knowledge or anything else on this blog!!!!
BB,
OT but it refers to Centerpoint Scope you gave high mark in this review.
I am particularly interested in high mag scopes 8-32x for my first pcp so I inquired at Opticsplanet. They replied that they do not carry Centerpoint as they are “very low cost scope and is considered entry level for casual target and plinking. This is in the same class as Barska and NcStar scopes.”
Too bad, my budget is entry level and low end. Is quality also hit or miss at this level? I do not think I like casual shooting since I too am in serious search of accuracy.
To all: any recommedations please?
Abe
Abe,
No doubt about it–Leapers scopes, including all CenterPoints, are inexpensive. That said, I think they are also the best value on the scope market.
Yes, even I will admit that in hypercritical tests I see that Hawke scopes, for example, are slightly sharper than Leapers. And Hawke scopes are not that much more expensive than Leapers. So are they worth it?
But you are now taking about scopes that cost two and three times as much as Leapers scopes. Are THEY worth it? Maybe–to someone with very sharp vision and someone hypercritical of optics. But to me they are not.
I’ve owned and used Leupolds that are not as clear as Leapers (Vary-X II E.F.R. scopes). Their Vari-X III series is sharper, but very costly.
The reason I recommend Leapers scope is because they are perfect for the person who doesn’t want to spend a bundle but still wants a good scope. Think of them as the RWS Dianas of the scope world. And the 8-32 is the Diana 54–a scope that can hold its own against pricier scopes.
It’s your choice, but I will continue to recommend Leapers for the value they offer.
B.B.
I am sorry BB for not clicking on the pellet link, what confused me was that later in the report you compared the marauder to a .22 cal disco saying: I shot one tighter group with a .22 disco ” thats why I thought that both were .22.
Emil
Just read up on the posts again.. I’ll try and answer as many questions as I can. If I missed any just remind me and I’ll do my best.
I’ll try and go in order..
Right, the SA80 or L85-A1 I first fired a few years ago. Horrible aesthetics, the cocking handle hurt the fingers to operate, jammed alot, didnt feel smoothe. Otherwise a very accurate rifle. the L85-A2 or SA80.. A superb rifle, over 100 parts were changed / modiifed by Heckler and Koch. Its accuracy is if anything even better. Very reliable, all old problems seem to have dissapeared, its capable of a 15mm group of 5 rounds at 25 yards when bench rested. Thats pretty good for a mass produced battle rifle! My experiance comes from my time in the RAF cadets where I’ve become a weapon instructor, I teach the newer cadets how to operate the L98-A1 which is a single shot version of the sa80 aswell as the L86-A2 Enfield No.4 in .22lr among other weapons. Over the time in the cadets I was taught how to operate various weapons from pistols to Ak’s and the M4. Shame I’ve never had the chance to fire most of them!
Someone asked me if I preferre .177 or .22.. Oh lord not this again! The .177 or .22 debate will go on forever. My conclusion in short is this.. New shooters or experianced shooters who intend to shoot alot of vermin and little targets should get a .22.. Why? because it hits harder and needs skill to get used to the trajectory. However if you want to try HFT or FT then .177 is the way forward, it still hits hard but its trajectory is far more forgiving than the .22. I personally preferre the .177 air rifle as its trajectory is better for sub 12ft/lbs airguns. Sound wise I know the feeling of mr squirrel seems to hear the gun go off before the pellet hits him.. Best bet is to try and get a quiet gun really.. for pcp’s its rarely a problem if you can get a moderator. Springers are usually ok aswell unless they are particularly twangy or if they vibrate alot.
Aj asked me to write about myself and the shooting scene in the UK.. Well hope your not bored of reading just yet!
I’m 17 years old, ive been shooting since I was 6.. so 11 years later I’m still going strong, I shoot everything from airgun to centre fire target rifle. Theres really too much to type it all, but I’ve tried most disciplines of shooting and wanted to take up most of them. I currently own 1 AA S410K .177, 1 Ruger 10/22T (customised), CZ452 Varmint .22, Anshcutz 1813 target rifle .22, Lincoln No1. 12 bore over and under.
I also have an antique webley air pistol, some SMK piece of crap air rifle and an old CO2 airsoft pistol.
As you might know, firearms laws in the UK are.. strange and far more strict than in America. We are not allowed to have any semi automatic centre rifle weapons excluding shotguns where they can only have a capacity of 3 rounds unless good reason is given and a rifle certifcate is held..
Shotgun licences are kind of like any firearms permit, except they are alot harder to get in the UK. But once you have one, in theory you could have as many shotguns and as much ammo as you wanted. Rifles however are a different story.. The licences for these can take up to a year to be issued, they allow you only the firearms you can give good reason to own and they limit the ammount of ammunition / type you can buy. e.g. I’m allowed 4 .22 rimfire rifles and 1000 rounds of ammunition.. 800 solid and 200 expanding.
Ahh I just remembered HFT and FT.. This is one of the disciplines I havent really tried as there arent any competitions close by.. They are all too far away for me to want to go, so I’ve stayed away from them so far… But FT and to a larget extent HFT are some of the fastest growing sports in England. Its getting hugely popular with guys and girls of all ages taking part. Its really good to see.
I’m hoping that the shooters will get a better press with the news in coming years. Our sport is seriously in danger in the UK from being futher controlled or even banned like foxhunting was. I hope that these new and upcoming sports and the work I do with young shooters at my local club will show the government that not all shooters are suicidal nutjobs.
Harry,
aka. Deadeyedick.
Harry, aka. Deadeyedick,
Excellent comment!! Sounds like you have a very firm grasp on the sport. You’re right about the .177/.22 debate. It will go on forever. It’s kind of like asking, should I get a .22 rimfire or a .308 Winchester? BB’s answer, and yours ,too, probably, would be, what do you want to do with it?
Anyway, excellent piece of commentary. I appreciate hearing experiences from AR shooters from other parts of the world.
Aren’t you glad pellets don’t fall under your ammo limits. Two tins of JSB Exacts…:)
You should post things like this on the current day’s blog so it reaches more readers. There is no such thing as being “off topic” on BB’s blog. All comments are welcome.
Thanks again for taking the time to write to us.
-Chuck
Chuck,
I dont know what I would do if airgun pellets were limited aswell! My gun just cant get eneugh of those JSB’s Loves em.
Still experimenting on the right ammunition for my CZ .22 it doesnt really like eley that much, CCI is my next choice or Winchester so I will grab a box of each and head for the range later this week.
About the .177/.22 debate.. AJ will remember the 20 odd page long debates we had about it on reviewcentre forums.. We never really got a better conclusion than what is already written here.
I will try and find the current days blog.. but I am notoriously useless on websites I havent used before despite all this hype that my generation is the internet savvy crowd.. It seems to have missed me out totally!
Reguards,
Harry aka deadeyedick.
Harry,
The easiest (but not fastest) way to get to the current blog is to go to /. You’ll see blue tabs near the top of the screen. Click on the blue tab that says Blog. That takes you to the current day’s blog. Then, when you get there, bookmark it or make it a Favorite, depending on your browser. That bookmark will always take you to the current days blog from then on.
If you need additional help navigating these blogs please feel free to ask. No question goes unanswered. Remember BB’s blog by-line “There are no stupid questions” and he means it! He’s answered plenty of my stupid questions.
-Chuck
BB
I would like to install iron sights on the Marauder – what is the OD of the barrel shroud ?
(I have one pre-ordered from Pyramyd and will need to order the right size front sight adapter from Brownells)
thanks
Iron sights on the Marauder,
NO WAY!
There is nothing solid to attach the front sight to. The shroud is hollow and is screwed onto the receiver.
Pick another rifle. If I may suggest an accurate rifle, how about a Diana 60 or 65? They come with iron sights and are very accurate.
B.B.
I did install iron sights on my Marauder—match type apertures on the front and rear. However, there are no current (that I could find) systems that will allow one to mount to an 0.875" diameter barrel which is the diameter of the shroud.
What I did was to bore a rectangular steel block with a 0.0005" press fit on my lathe. The bore was offset such that the Airforce front sight would be centered when the upright was attached directly (omitting the dovetail base) to the side of the steel block. I tried to put it on by heating the block then putting it on, but I found quickly that the heat transfer to the aluminum shroud was too fast. I wound-up putting the shroud and stuck block in the freezer for a while at which point I was able to force it on with hand pressure and also rotate it to index it. Another problem I found was that the shroud will need to be secured with blue locktite at the receiver, other wise the front sight will not stay indexed—the shroud can rotate and with temperature changes a uniform torque will be in a different spot.
Were I to do this again, I would make a new end-plug that would extend out past the shroud by an inch or so and have the diameter turned to 0.750". By doing this I would avoid dinging up the anodizing at the muzzle end of the shroud, and it would make finding sight bases to fit much easier. Many highpower rifle sights are designed for the 3/4" diameter muzzle.
The rear Airforce sight fit just fine, though it took a bit to get the height of the front and rear to match as these are both adjustable. There is also a distinct advantage to having the sights adjustable for height in that you can set the height to optimize your trajectory.
BTW, I have used my iron sight set-up to good effect on our local Field target matches. I just have to estimate range by experience rather than a focus ring or dial.
ArimoDave,
Very clever and inventive.
This is the kind of information that many airgunners would appreciate. Since there are a lot of Marauders owners on this blog I would encourage you to leave your comment where most airgunners are exchanging idea's and experiences. You'll find most of them in the "comments" section under the most recent article that B.B. has written. He writes a new article everyday, Monday-Friday. This link will always take you to the most recent article he has written:
/blog//
Look forward to seeing you there!
kevin
valve lock will happen when thier is not enough hammer strike it has nothing to do with adjusting the velocity.as far as the ability to group at distance I would put the mrod against any gun out thier indoors or outside.I have shot 3/4 inch groups with one at 85 yards
and have seen a pellet shot thru the drinking hole of a soda can at 60 and 80 yards this is a 22 cal. seems to me alot of people come here for answers to problems that have common simple answers the first is get to know your gun and the only way to do that is to shoot it a lot.the mrod is one of if not the best all around shooter available bar non.