by B.B. Pelletier
This is an eye-opening day for me and for all who want to know the 953 TargetPro velocity. We had some readers chime in that their rifles were not in the 500s, so today we’ll see what this one can do.
Because this is a plinker as well as an informal target rifle, I selected pellets that were appropriate. Somebody asked for a .22 caliber single-stroke that makes 500 f.p.s. Be advised that there is only one rifle I know of that’s ever done that. The Dragon single-stroke was a 12 foot-pound gun, but the lever had to swing 105 degrees to pressurize enough air. Single-strokes are not that powerful, as a rule.
H&N Match
H&N Match pellets are made in light and heavy weights for pistols and rifles, respectively. There were the lights that weigh about 7.6 grains. They averaged 471 f.p.s., with a spread from 462 to 479. That’s a large spread for a single-stroke — almost double what I expected. I will still try this pellet for accuracy, though, because it has an excellent reputation.
RWS Basic
Now, the RWS Diabolo Basic is a utility pellet. Ideal for plinking and probably okay for informal target shooting, too. We’ll see how good it is in the accuracy test. Because it weighs only 7 grains, I expected it to be the fastest pellet, but it averaged only 477 f.p.s. in this rifle. The spread was from 470 to 483, so it’s tighter than the H&N spread. But, like I said, not much faster.
Gamo Match
Gamo Match pellets are an old standby. Often, surprisingly accurate in some guns, they are always worth trying in a target gun. Look how they did with the Air Venturi US Avenger 1100, not that it’s a target rifle. In the 953, they average 477 f.p.s. with a spread from 472 to 480. That makes them the pellet with the tightest velocity spread in this test.
Am I surprised? Yes. I expected to see velocities around 540 f.p.s. with the lighter pellets. Does that mean there’s something wrong with the test rifle? Not at all. In fact, this rifle may speed up as it breaks in.
Then, I remembered what I did with the IZH 46 when I tested its velocity. And I tried the same thing with this rifle. Average velocity for RWS Basics climbed to 547 f.p.s.! The spread was larger, though. It ran from 530 to 562.
So–what was that “thing” I did? I pumped the lever almost all the way three times before closing it. That rams a little more air into the gun. After 10 shots doing that, I tried one more shot with a single pump and got 459 f.p.s. I cannot recommend this procedure to anyone. No doubt it is hard on the mechanism. I just did it to see if this gun would react like the IZH 46, and it did.
The trigger is still not two-stage, but a couple of times it seemed to be headed in that direction–like there was a greater or more noticeable pause in the travel toward the end. I’m sure the trigger is breaking in, because it now breaks at 4.5 lbs. very regularly.
Can’t wait to try this rifle for accuracy. I’ll try it with the standard sights, then with target sight and finally with a short scope. It will probably take a couple more blogs to cover all of it.
This seems odd, the gun really isn’t that much faster than the SSP Marksman 2004/Beeman P17 pistol – despite the fact that (I imagine) the pistol has a much smaller powerplant.
How hard is the 953 to cock?
CT Airgun Show- June 6-7 at Windsor Elks Lodge #2060 130 Deerfield Road Windsor, CT 06095
This was for those who were asking the other day. Sorry that it took a little bit to get back with the information, but I wanted to double check that it was still at the same location as the past two shows.
I’ve found that Gamo wadcutters work best in my 953, or at least the original that I had. Haven’t fully tried out the replacement yet though. Currently enamored with the 499b, which I have a question.
The manual only mentions wiping the gun with a cloth to clean it and oiling the lever, should I also be oiling the compression chamber?
Alan,
Thanks for the info.
No need to ever oil your 499B. Just shoot it.
B.B.
Vince,
The 953 is rather hard to cock.
B.B.
I had a 953 for a while. Mine also shot best with Gamo Match. I never chronied it (don’t have one.) I wound up filling the stock with a pourable mixture of Durham’s Water Putty. It added some much needed weight and cut down substantially on the plastic toy feel.
I recently picked up a 753, and am quite amazed with it. During short-range pellet testing, it didn’t seem to matter very much at all which pellet I shot. The only one it didn’t like was the odd Bimoco Spitz.
I recently sold a Daisy 850, which is the same basic action , but a smoothbore barrel and a plastic woodgrain stock. Despite the smooth bore, it was surprisingly accurate at 7 yds in the basement. I experimented a little with installing a sleeve inside the valve, thinking the same amount of air, compressed into a smaller valve volume would yield higher pressure. Without a chrony, I was limited to subjective things like sound and impact. With the sleeve, the crack was louder, and it did seem to smack the cans a bit harder. But interestingly, every once in a while, it would fire less loudly, and I discovered that if I cocked the gun and pulled the trigger without pumping after one of those shots, the valve was retaining air. Aparently, the Daisy SSP pump and valve are quite well balanced.
I also did the Pilkington trigger mod on all three of these guns, and I highly recommend it. It can be done with basic tools, and really improves these rifles.
Jim in PGH
B.B.,
The Combo Air Rifle, which uses PCP or CO2 tank in buttstock like Air Force rifle and single pump in usual placement spot is the only way I can imagine to comfortably get more power from a single pump air rifle.
The Combo is pumped once, which alone can propel a 7.2 grain pellet around 510 fps, yielding a little over 4 ft./lbs. Or, by flipping a switch, the tank valve is activated which allows a small amount of PCP air or CO2 alone to propel the same pellet around 710 fps, yielding around 8 ft./lbs.
The beauty part of the Combo is that you can also run it using both pump and tank, which yields around 880 fps and about 12 ft./lbs. Because so little air is used on each shot, using the pump and tank together yields over 450 shots right around 12 ft./lbs. before the curve drops off.
The rifle is perfectly balanced, as the pump mechanism and tank counterbalance each other so that the center of gravity is tiny bit in front of the trigger.
– Dr. G.
BB:
Thanks for spending so much time and attention on the 953, which for a small-time, basement airgunner newbie like me is an affordable gem.
How important is the lower-than-expected velocity for the 953’s usual roles as an informal target and plinker? I know hunters could not use a gun in the 400s (especially a .177), but will this also affect short-range target shooting?
I’ve always thought my 953 was easy to cock, but I realize after your comment that, since I’m a big guy with long arms, I may have some natural leverage that others don’t and they may find the 953 hard to cock. For me, my 1377C and the Daisy 880S get to be bothersome to cock pretty rapidly if I’m tired at the end of the day, and the single stroke of the 953 seems almost relaxing.
Great to have the highest of all airgun experts report on something I shoot almost every day!
PurcHawk
Dr. G.,
That Combo rifle is a new one for me. Never heard of it.
B.B.
PurcHawk,
Yeah, I worried over saying that. Actually it isn’t too hard to cock, but for the power available, it seems so.
B.B.
I recently switched from RWS Meisterkuglen to RWS Match R-10 in my 853c. Got an immediate improvement in accuracy consistency. Don’t know whether it would apply to the 953 (’cause of the 853’s Lothar barrel).
When I first got the gun I tried the Meisterkuglen, Gamo Match, JSB’s and a couple of otheres and found them all ‘close’ with the Meisterkuglen having the edge.
But the R-10’s just blew them all out of the water.
For what it’s worth.
CowBoyStar Dad
B.B.,
As I wrote, “The Combo Air Rifle…is the only way I can imagine…”
It has not made the leap yet from my mind to the production line:)
Do you see any merit to the idea, or is it a solution without a problem like the automatic battery cocking spring gun?
– Dr. G.
CSD,
I will try R-10s in the accuracy test.
B.B.
Dr. G.,
Your idea reminds me of the ram-assisted pneumatic invented by Al Neibecker. It’s a multi-pump that develops over 35 foot-pounds.
B.B.
B.B.
Thank you, very interesting!
– Dr. G.
My 953 likes JSB Exact Diabolo 8.4 this month. I even wrote 953 on the tin so I wouldn’t forget. I shoot so many rifles I have a hard time keeping track of them so I have to resort to labeling like an early Alzheimer patient.
During my earlier pellet testing phase, when I had only one kind of pellet (which I’ll call XYZ) to start with, I was satisfied with how my gun performed. Then, I read about other pellets on this blog and how they performed better than XYZ and so I started testing various other brands.
I would get a tin of ABC and try it for a half hour session, and WOW look at that one hole! This must be the pellet for me and my gun! Then, with high hopes, the next day the pellet shoots no better than XYZ did two days ago. What?!! I went through about four different brands this way. I’d swear I found THE pellet and would tell everybody about it on this blog only to have it perform average the next day (no, I never printed a retraction).
I am no longer satisfied with how my beloved gun performs! Is it me? Is my gun defective? What about the scope? I don’t know for sure. But I sure as heck am not bored with it! And I’m enough of a masochist to keep trying.
So what am I trying to say? Air gunning is like golf, except I don’t get as mad at myself as I do when I miss the green. Some days I can shoot par like a demon, sinking 20 foot putts, and the next day I can’t hit the clubhouse with the golf cart. I haven’t given up golf after 20 years of abject misery and I won’t give up airgunning either. OK, where’s that next gun, that next pellet, that is the answer to my misery.
Hey BB PELLETIER, Please mind my state of oblivion as I am a total noob when it comes to stuff like this. Yesterday you recommended that I use the Crosman Premier 7.9 grain for the RWS 34P. I know those are the best pellets to use, hands down, with regards to accuracy. I just wanted to know what pellets could I use to cause serious damage. I want to blow huge holes in my targets. I want the pellet to enter and exit the target(not to worry,we are shooting in a safe place). Would you recommend the Barracuda extra heavy? Or would the weight of the pellet reduce velocity so significantly that it becomes ineffective to shoot from long range(50-70) yards? My plan is to have 3 sets of pellets. The crosman premier(for accuracy), possibly the Barracuda extra heavy(for blowing huge holes and penetration), and some cheaper pellets like the Gamo pellets (for messing around).I know im asking alot but I would love your opinion. I hope you dont mind.
Ishaq
I tried several pellets in the new old Gamo Compact last night and the groupings were all over the target. The pistol didn’t like JSB Match’s, or Beeman Aces but RWS R-10’s produced one hole groups – albeit a large single hole. It was one of those situations where I thought something has to be wrong with this used pistol until the R-10’s produced that result. Go figure. It really pays to experiment with different pellets if your rifle or pistol isn’t producing good groupings before blaming yourself or the weapon.
Word Verificatio – flizes. Yep, I got a lot of those flizes in my attempts at shooting tight groups.
Vince,
I put the cocking lever of my 953 on a bathroom scale and pushed down on the gun until it was cocked and the scale read 20lb.
Ishaq,
If you want huge holes get a firearm. A .177 pellet rifle will never blow huge holes. And you can’t have a .22 pellet gun in South Africa because it’s classified as a firearm. Is that right?
The Baracuda Extra Heavy will just penetrate deeper. It doesn’t mushroom.
It’s better to hit the target than to blow huge holes, anyway.
All of the pellets that deform greatly are accurate at short range, only. The best might be the Premier hollowpoint.
For fun you should try Gamo pellets–whatever designs you can get. And RWS pellets are often very accurate in Diana guns.
B.B.
B.B.
Hm, I wouldn’t say the velocity spreads reported here are a selling point, but given the short range of the gun, they probably don’t detract either.
Chuck, I suspect the placebo effect for your pellets. In the early days with my IZH 61, there were any number of instances where I thought that the rifle’s accuracy had disappeared and it was all me.
Matt61
R9 to R7 power reduction guy from yesterday,
Instead of rebuilding a perfectly good R9, have you considered just getting something like an IZH-61 for $110? Supremely easy cocking and very accurate as well.
Bb, What are examples of pellets that deform greatly? I trust you probably learnt that this my first air rifle ever.
Matt,
I agree with you on the placebo effect! I just couldn’t put a name to it until now. Thanks!
Since Vince made me get my 953 out I decided to try the JSB exacts again. I shot two groups: the 1st group I did single shot with 8 pellets; the second group I did 10 shots with the 5 shot magazine.
10m indoor range, temp 70 degrees, JSB Exacts 8.4gr, BSA Scope at 16X.
The chrony is 2 feet from the muzzle.
The first group (8 pellets)was:
low: 455 fps
Hi: 467 fps
Avg: 461 fps
Hi-Lo: 11.66
Avg: 4.24
These were each shot at a different target(not really a group then is it…). All except two hit the bull or broke the bull line. The other two were close but no cigar.
The second group (10 pellets) was:
lo: 451
Hi: 462
Avg: 459
Hi-Lo: 11.06
Avg: 3.31
These were a true one hole group. The entire hole measured 1/4″ edge to edge. There was one flyer out 1/4″ from the hole (why can I never reach perfection?).
Looks like Exacts are still the winner so far this month. I wish there was some way to stop my heart beat without dying.
-C
Fred, I had the same experience as you. Since I purchased my Compact in January I settled on the Meisterkuglens (same story as my Avanti 853)…it just seemed to like them better than the others.
Up till 2 weeks ago I was convinced I needed to upgrade to a better gun. Years ago I had quite bit of experience shooting my fathers S&W 41 .22 target, so I sorta knew what size groups to expect and the Gamo just wasn't close.
Two weeks ago I tried the R-10's. Since then I've had a few targets with the 10 ring blown out with one ragged hole.
I'm now very happy with the Gamo.
CowBoyStar Dad
Ishaq,
The Predator Polymag is the best one:
/product/predator-polymag-177-cal-8-0-grains-pointed-200ct?p=352
All the rest are mediocre, by comparison.
You might like this report:
/blog/2007/1/do-hollowpoint-pellets-work/
and this one:
/blog/2007/02/crosmans-premier-hollow-point-part-1a-comparative-test/
B.B.
B.B.
Ishaq,
At times I shoot .177 pellets at a steel, resettable, flip up target at about 500fps at 10 meters. The targets are round 1/16″ thick metal disks 1 3/4″ in diameter. The pellets are smashed paper thin and the largest diameter one I’ve found is 1/4″.
At times I shoot at paper targets backed with 1″ thick duct seal, which is like hard putty, or hard Play Dough. Those pellets are only slightly deformed on the nose with hardly any expansion.
So, the answer to your question is…it depends on what you hit. What the heck are you wanting to shoot at that expansion is so important? You’ve got me curious. I might be missing out on something fun.
-Charley
Thanks BB,
Crj…Nothing in particular. I just like big holes. I know BB said in that case I should get a firearm, but I meant big holes relative to normal pellets. For example if im shooting at a steel can. Instead of a neat tiny hole on either side. Id much rather admire and prefer a bigger,perhaps more messy hole created at the point of impact.
Perhaps im crazy, but I take pride in causing damage, Lol.
Regarding reactive targets, the best is still the old classic, a steel can (tin if you like) filled with water. Shoot it with a soft wadcutter from a moderate to high-powered air rifle and it will erupt in a spume of water most of the time. Really fun with .22LR hollowpoints, if I remember correctly.
B.B.
Off topic….#1…I am trying to understand what happens to co2 guns reguarding temperature changes. My fall season can be 20-45 F., but summers are 70-90F.
#2…Can a “hangy tank” be bulk filled from some large container like a fire extinguisher or something else.
If you answered the first or second question on a previous blog, please point me to it.
B.T.W…My power plant is a MK1.22.
Thanks. Rusty Barrel
Ishaq,
I see what your after. Let me make a guess on what is going to happen. Someone else with more experience can probably answer better but here is my opinion.
I think any .177 pellet you use at the same speed will make the same size entry hole in the front of the can or at least you won’t be able to see any wow factor from one pellet to another. If you want a bigger entry hole go to .22 pellet. Sounds like you can’t have .22 where you are so scratch that.
Next, thinking out loud with you, the size of the hole on the other side of the can should be larger than on the front because the pellet will have spread out due to the impact on the front side and somewhat due to the impact on the other side. However, I can tell you from first hand experience that the exit hole on the cans I’ve shot are very much smaller than the entry hole. The entry holes are about 1/4″ while the exit holes are about the size of an undamaged pellet. I know, it doesn’t sound right does it? Anyway, I don’t think there will be any wow factor between pellets here either. The difference will be small.
Now here is where your question needs to be answered. How much will any given pellet expand after passing through those two impact points? This is a question hunters ask because it gives a quick kill. I have a feeling their response would be, don’t look for another .177, go get yourself a .22.
Ishaq, you have a blog post in the making here. Maybe you should experiment and give US a report. We have something to learn from you.
In the mean time, tell me what kind of cans are you shooting and I’ll try to see if any of my pellets make a difference. I have shot at those real thin sided soda cans which are the ones I was shooting in my previous example.
CAUTION!!!
One of my grand kids shot at a vegetable can, which has much thicker side walls than the soda cans, and the pellet ricocheted back and hit him painfully in the shoulder from 10 meters! So be careful. Make sure you wear safety glasses. I don’t know this for sure but he might have hit the rim which is very hard.
I tape the cans down so they don’t fly off the ledge then try to shoot the cans in half (it takes several pellets but improves your aim). It’s fun and does have somewhat of a wow factor to see half the can fly away. It’s a good buddy competition too to see who’s shot blows it away.
-Chuck
My final answer…..
JSB extra heavy works for me in the 953……
I remember a time when I experimented on pellets that were washed, washed & lubed, lubed and normal. Find the one that works out of the tin, because that set seemed to work the best or near the best without any hassle. For target competition maybe, but for mr. squirrel or for my needs then no.
As for big holes, wadcutters and bigger caliber.
CO2 seems to lose power in the cold. I can tell when it's starts getting colder around 50 to 60. My rule of thumb, if I need a jacket, then I leave the CO2 at home.
Crj…
I would love to experiment but I dont really know much. Im a newbie in the game. Secondly, here in South Africa we dont have such a wide variety of pellets to choose from. There are only a handful of companies that import the pellets, therefore our choice is limited significantly. The same applies to airguns. We can only choose from about 30-40 different guns in the entire country(more then enough for me though). Most of the pellets we have available are of similar weight class,with the exception of a few, so therefore I doubt there would be distinctive differences. You guys in the US have all the choice.
Yes we shoot at any cans, bottles etc. We do ensure we are in a safe place and a safe distance away from the target, but thanks for the caution.I Will be wary.We have acres of open land and trees for me and my buddies to go pest control. Usually we go with one of my buddies rifles. This 34P is going to be my first very own rifle. I will definitely try taping the can down and having a go with my mates. Thanks man. One more thing. What pellet weight would be more accurate for shooting from 60 yards. Would the Crow magnums or the premier 7.9g perform better.
Ishaq
Rusty Barrel,
I always filled my hanging tanks from a 20-pound CO2 tank that had been a fire extinguisher.
B.B.
Whats the general rule for longer distances(60 yards)? Heavy is usually better?
Ishaq ,
At 60 yards I will bet your .177 Diana 34P shoots Crow Magnums into a 2-inch group. And the Premiers will go into a group almost half that size.
B.B.
Ishaq ,
Heavy is only better for a domed pellet. No wadcutter will be accurate much beyond 30 yards, no matter what the weight.
B.B.
Thanks BB,
Yes, we only ever use domed pellets. Iv never shot anything else ever. Except for a pointed pellet, which I didnt like very much.
Derrick,
That’s right. Can you think of a better rifle to train follow-through than the IZH 61? Accurate, low-weight, and low power.
Can-shooters, I think B.B. mentioned tying your can down with a string (just shoot a hole in it). Then, you get to see the can jump without letting it run away from you. That’s what I would do if I had the space.
Rusty Barrel, others and certainly Herb can tell you better what is going on with CO2 and temperature. As I understand it, when you shoot, you lose some CO2, and you need to add heat (let it warm up) to expand the gas to regain pressure. Some heat may also go to changing the liquid CO2 in your cartridge to gas. Cold air temperatures retard this process, and lower your pressures. Anyway, warm is better for CO2. I think 40 degrees is supposed to be the limit for CO2 to function at all; I don’t know if there’s an upper limit to temperature.
Does anyone know if and why red dot sights are not supposed to have parallax problems? Based on our discussions of parallax with a scope, I would think that a reflex sight with a red dot would have such severe parallax problems that you couldn’t hit anything, and yet they are supposed to be as accurate as iron sights.
Matt61
Ishaq,
You want big holes in a soda can. No problem at all.
Take you empty soda can and fill it with water all the way to the top. No need to close the hole.
Then shoot it. If your gun puts out at least 400fps you’ll be happy. If you put out about 600fps you’ll really be happy.
DB
Matt61, I believe red-dot’s are somewhat self correcting with regards to parallax, but I believe they are not immune to it. I think that their strengths lie in quick target acquisition at moderate ranges rather than ultimate precision.
Derrick:
Red-dot sights DO have parallax problems, even though they are built optically to compensate.
Most manufacturers lie about this in their sales material.
The real situation is explained in detail and lucidly in an article by John Dreyer on the Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol web site.
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/dotsight.htm
In essence, almost all red-dots are constructed to eliminate parallax at 30 feet, and at any other distance there is a distortion, although the best sights compensate pretty well. The cheap ones don’t. Twenty-five yards is usually the best distance for red-dots, and 50 feet is the worst.
I’m shooting informal bullseye pistol competition (.22 only) and almost everyone here uses a red-dot these days. Anyone who can afford them uses Ultradots.
PurcHawk
PurcHawk,
Thanks for the readable article. It looks like the answer to my question is that the dot sight is concave to compensate for different eye positions off the axis of the scope.
I’ve never heard of the Ultradot. What is it? It seems to be an improved dot sight which I guess means a brighter and more focused dot. Maybe PA should start stocking them.
Matt61
I hear Crosman has gas……gas springs that is.
PurchHawk,
I didn’t mean to imply that red dot sights don’t have any parallax. I believe that the parallax is minimized because there’s no magnification. I think keeping the dot more or less centered in the tube as you sight will also help.
Derrick
ajvenom,
Yes, Crosman does have gas springs.
B.B.
Matt and Derrick:
The Ultradot line is said by both writers and shooters to be the best reasonably priced red-dot. Even their lowest cost 1″ sight at about $145 is supposed to be as good as anyone needs for pistol target shooting up to 50 yards.
I’ve looked through one, and just as you say Matt, the view is very clear and the dot small and precise. All the other red dots I’ve seen tend more or less to spread the dot out so you don’t have a really focused POI.
Almost all the upper level bullseye handgun shooters use Ultradots on their competition .22s and 1911s.
Personally, I have not yet sprung for one, and I’m still using a big 40mm Tasco, which is not a great sight by any means.
You are correct, Derrick, that keeping your focus in the center of the sight helps eliminate or at least modify parallax. However, if you are hunting instead of target shooting, then it’s a big help to be able to find the target fast and still get a decent shot off, even if you are not centered in the scope.
Some manufacturer’s ad copy trumpets that their red dots are completely parallax free, which is BS, and which I find irritating.
Judging from what I’ve been told by other pistol competitors, Pyramyd would do well to offer the lower priced Ultradots for air gunners, both pistol and rifle.
I don’t think there’s any question that good adjustable iron sights are more accurate than red dots, but that’s a moot point if you have bad eyesight. Red dots make it possible for me to shoot a pistol, so I’m happy to accept the shortcomings.
If you guys are really interested, look at some of the red dots that offer three or four choices of reticles in one sight. Usually, that’s a simple red dot, a dot in a circle, a cross hair, and a plain circle. Bushnell makes a decent multi reticle for around $80. The only drawback is that you have to re-zero when you change reticles.
I’d been away from shooting for almost 40 years, so the whole idea of a red dot sight came as a pleasant surprise.
PurcHawk
On the subject of red dots:
I bought a cheapie ($45) at Wal-Mart for experimenting on my air rifles. I set the dot to the lowest setting so that the dot is the smallest but it still covers the 10X completely. But that’s not why I’m writing. I noticed the following:
. First I place the dot in the center of the scope,
. Then I hold the gun steady and lower my head,
. As I lower my head, the red dot starts dropping progressively faster below the bull,
. Next, I go back to center and raise my head,
. The dot stays on target.
If I keep the dot on scope center or anywhere above scope center the dot stays on target, but if I lower my head it moves all over the place.
So, my point is…for those of you tempted…parallax exists…don’t buy a cheap scope.
-Mr. Obvious Chuck
BB,
Are you going to be at the NRA show in Phoenix all three days? There is a 98% chance that I’ll attend.
-Chuck
Chuck,
Yes, I’ll be there.
B.B.
PurcHawk,
Thanks for the link on red dots. I would never have believed that at 1x or 2x devices they could have parallax, and said so a few times, but the article esp. with its pictures is convincing.
Technically, I’m not sure that parallax as defined in reticulated scope sights does exist on red dots, but the astigmatic tilting of the lens/mirror to accommodate the off-axis light for the spot does seem to cause the same result, perhaps because it mimics looking through the outer edges of a fairly powerful lens.
Maybe the makers of red dots could work around this problem at the expense of a small central obstruction, by placing a tiny 45d flat mirror in the center of the objective lens and mounting the light perpendicular to to the axis.
BG:
I’m certain you are correct, and your technical knowledge far exceeds mine.
What I have not read anything about is whether reflex style dot sights have the same problem. They produce their images from a different system of projection, and they are usually touted to have little or no “parallax” and thus good for quick target acquisition. I think a lot of shotgun deer hunters use them.
I’d like to try one out, but the good ones are darned expensive.
Speaking of which, I’m always amazed to see the ads for those military-grade red dots that run up over $1,000. Makes it clear what grade those Crosman $10 red dots are.
PurcHawk
PurcHawk,
I’m not stating fact known to me, just puzzling it out publicly, so feel free to disagree. I hate to admit it but the difference b/t red dot and reflex eludes me. I’ve also seen those $1K things — makes me fear that there are more snipers and covert ops guys around than I would like to think:).
I took up the standard of cheap one red dots time and bought a Daisy red dot…ugh:). Just to be fair, however, I was out after lunch sighting in my temporary Daisy 4×15 scope for my model 60 while I wait for the bad news on my broken scope. I have to say I like it for $7, and even the “real” scope was way too big on there to be pretty, whereas this one is scaled to rimfire proportions:). Its got me thinking about a 2.5×20 or the like in a 1″ tube with actual rings or an older, higher quality rimfire special (the ones now seem to be made all in the same place).
Afternoon B.B.,
Hope that you and Edith are enjoying a relaxing weekend together.
Watched an Abrams tank being made the other night. Wow, what weapon system that is! A light year or two away from the M48 I trained on.
A smooth bore main gun that can take you out from a couple of miles away. Unfortunatly nothing was said about how its various projectiles are stabilized which gets me to my question.
How does the tube work and can that knowledge be applied to air guns? I’m asking cause I think I remember the statment–it’s the pellet’s shape that stablizes it in flight. Thanks
Mr B.
PS. Kevin, haven’t seen your around lately and was wondering how you’re doing?
BG_Farmer and PurcHawk,
My theory is that the reflex sights are the flat ones that look like windows which allow faster or “reflex” type shooting. He he. I believe I’ve heard that the red dot style are not only faster to acquire but at least as accurate as iron sights. But it may depend on what type of iron sights. One would suppose that the Anschutz sights would be better.
Mr. B, wouldn’t the M1 Abrams projectiles be stabilized by rifling like other artillery?
All, the B30 returns! Today I got out to the range for the first time since my tune by Rich from Mich. I found another advantage to 20 shot groups. They give some substance to groups that at 50 yards can look very dispersed and isolated. The best I could do after a lengthy warmup of over 100 shots when I was shooting all over the place was 2 inches at 50 yards with a 4X32 Leapers scope. I didn’t have it in me to dismount my 6-24X50 from my Savage sniper rifle. The next closest group, shot right before was also 2 inches with about 4 retroactively designated fliers. 🙂
But that raises a statistical question. Given that the 20 shot group is approaching statistical certainty, aren’t you on much stronger ground to dismiss all the larger groups? Say yes!
I also got to try out my new sitting position with my new (cheap) Midway USA shooting mat. This one is not in any books I’ve found but in a single photo of army recruits on the firing line. It is basically the ankles crossed position with the ankles uncrossed and the feet separated by about 4 inches and resting on their outside edges. The standard ankles crossed felt strained. The David Tubb crossed legged with the lead leg extended was unendurable. The standard field target with feet planted makes me think that Wayne must have abs of steel. But this army position was fine; even with the feet on edge, the tensions that the position sets up make it quite stable. It reminded me of famous newsreel footage of the Pacific War with a Marine in the sitting position drilling away with an M1.
The sitting group was slightly larger than the benchrested group. The standing 20 shot group went into four inches which is almost the exact minute of angle equivalent of what I shoot at 15 feet.
If B.B. got a 1 inch group with the Avenger at 25 yards with wind, could we say that the B30 is a rough match? I suppose that is as close as Wayne and I will get to our shoot-off since he sold all of his springers. Anyway, it looks like the goofs at BAM actually built a good rifle which they failed to assemble properly.
B.B., consider sending one of your Garands to Clint Fowler! I got three FTF today out of 100 rounds which I attribute to the Greek surplus ammo, but even with that and using only the sighting square on the target (instead of a real bull), the M1 was putting 8 shots into 2 inches rested at 50 yards. Shooting standing was a real trip, and my follow through technique of keeping my eye on the target was an impossibility. Anyway, for $500, Clint can rebuild your rifle to a High Master level, and with the kind of ammo you can handload, you will get some really fantastic results.
Matt61
Mr. B.,
The M1 tank is NOT an artillery piece. It is a direct-fire weapon, as opposed to indirect fire, which is what artillery is.
The distinction is so important that the Army has two separate and distinct branches — one for each type of weapon. Armor is tanks, which are direct-fire weapons. Artillery is the name of the branch devoted to indirect-fire weapons. Soldiers go to special schools to learn the operational details of one or the other branch, and the two do not overlap much.
I was a cavalry officer in the Army. That’s not a separate branch, but rather a subset of Armor. As such I was trained in tanks, but also in 4.2-inch mortars–which are indirect-fire weapons. So I also had to learn a little bit about indirect-fire weapons, though I would never consider myself to be an Artillery officer.
A tank cannon stabilizes its projectile in one of two ways–either by spin or by fins. The M68 cannon found on the M60-series tanks is a rifled 105mm cannon, so it is spin-stabilized for the most part. One round, however, the Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot round, works best if it doesn’t spin in flight. So that round has a sabot that takes the rifling of the bore, but falls away after the projectile (called a log-rod penetrator) exits the muzzle.
The long-rod penetrator is the most effective anti-tank round. But you have to appreciate what a tank is to understand what that means. A tracked artillery piece has some armor on it, and CNN might refer to it as a tank, but it really isn’t. An M1 Abrams tank has more than a YARD of frontal armor! It’s not solid steel, but a blend of classified things that actually do a better job of stopping most enemy rounds.
The one thing that is usually lethal to the Abrams and to most tanks is a long-rod penetrator. Of course once a shaped charge gets large enough in diameter there is no stopping it, but most of the big ones are fires from aircraft.
So the Abrams dominates the battlefield, as long as we control the airspace overhead. The cannon on the M1 tank is optimized to fire the long-rod penetrator, which doesn’t have to be spun to stabilize. Hence, the cannon os a smoothbore.
And now for the secret to the M1’s long range accuracy. Velocity. Faster than one mile a second! Couple that with a laser rangefinder that calculates the range and a firing computer that compensates for all manner of variable influences and you have a lethal long-range killing machine.
There are now also guided munitions that out-perform the ballistic ones of my day. There is a good writeup on Wiki, so you may want to read that.
Sorry to dance around the specifics but this stuff was all classified when I learned about it and I don’t know if any of it has been declassified yet.
B.B.
Happy Mothers Day!!
I know there are some out there besides Edith..
Matt,
In the early days, a year and a half ago, Randy and I would shoot the Avenger 1100s with 3-9x40AO leapers, off rests at 20 yards indoors at night..
We got to 3,000 shots on each in less than two months.. The game we worked out was to try and take out all the orange on a 1" dot… without going outside the dot…
I did it once with 54 shots, all inside the 1" dot, and cleaned up the orange specks along the edge.. (still got the board, and a picture of it is on my photo bucket)… the problem is that the gun won't do it over and over again.. at least not for me..
Now if it's the AAs410, then I can, and it will do it over and over again… That's why I sold all the springers that shoot over 700fps.. There is just too much recoil in those springers for me to be consistently accurate with them..
We shot "H&N Baracuda extra heavy match".. can't get them anymore, but the Beeman Kodiak are the same I think..
BTW, I had a B-30 too, and I would say, that the breakbarrel Avenger is about the same in quality or maybe better.. the B-30 is a crap shoot, while the 1100 is built better, except for way the barrels gets loose at the hinge point after thousands of shots.. (at least all 4 (some RM-200 & 600) of mine did!!… but PA stood behind them anyway!!.. well, behind Mendoza, pushing them for me anyway..
Wayne,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
Wayne,
BB said he can shoot 1″ groups at 60 yards with the RWS which is a springer. Is that not accurate enough for you?
Happy Mother’s Day!!!!
B.B.,
Thanks for your answer on the Abrams tank, an awesome weapon. A follow up question please conserning sabot rounds in general.
You implied that the sabot accepts the rifling and some how doesn’t transfer that spin to the actual projectile . Did I miss read your fourth paragraph? Thanks for your further clarification.
By the way B.B., thanks again for recommending the AirForce Talon SS and an optional 24″ barrel to cover my shooting needs. After 8 months of use it is still my go to gun(s).
People, if you know what you want your gun to do, ask for and follow B.B. advice you cann’t go wrong.
Mr B.
Mr. B.,
You read it correctly.
B.B.
BB you used a Leapers mount when you tested the RWS 34P. Since there arnt any available here, will a 1 piece Hawke medium mount and a BSA 3-12X44 scope work for me?
Ishaq,
I said “I can’t” shoot consistently accurate with springers over 700fps..
B.B. and some of you certainly can!!
But, with the PCP world so welcoming, why bother with recoil in an air gun, unless your like Matt61 and LIKE to practice for firearms..
But, even then, I’ve found that the recoil from firearms is different than the double recoil from a springer..
My best groups with my Howa 1500 at 100 yards, (1-1/2 – 2″) is better than my best group with the TX200 or RWS54 I ever got with them at 50 yards… again, that’s me not Tom!! and certainly not the TX200 or RWS54s fault!!
Mastering the springer hold, takes a better master than this one!!
Again, why bother, when the PCP world welcomes you with open arms.. Air Arms.. that is!! …
OK.. move over Air Arms S410, here comes the Marauder!!
Anyone tried the Evanix Blizzard yet.. a quiet, multi-shot Korean gun for once!! … great price, plenty of power, (not adjustable)
but is it accurate?
Wayne
Ishaq,
They will work as long as you can keep that mount from moving under recoil. Hang the vertical scope stop pin in front of the rifle’s base to stop the movement.
B,B,
Ishaq,
See.. “as long as you can keep the mount from moving under recoil”..
Then, if you can keep the scope from moving in the rings…
Then, if you can learn to hold it just right… then after you learn to hold it just right… or you think you have.. it will still give you a wild group sometimes..
right B.B.?
That just won’t happen with a good PCP.. (the Disco did it to me, and it’s out of here too!!)..
Every time I pickup the AAs410 I know it will group up to it’s potential… it’s always my fault, (without wondering if it’s the gun), if the groups aren’t tight or the steel target doesn’t fall over!!.. and that’s a good feeling… to trust the gun, and know that it’s up to the shooter.. not the luck of the springers bounce!!!
Wayne,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
B.B.
Thanks so much for the tank info..
Passing on that kind of info is always welcome for me!! I find it super interesting.. thanks so much!!
Keep it coming!!
Well, off to MOM’s …
talk at ya tonight!
Wayne
B.B.
So rifling is not the answer to the accuracy of the Abrams. What a surprise. So, the question for me is where does all of the extra velocity come from? An extra large powder charge? Or does the lack of spinning mean more energy is left over to drive the projectile? Spinning does consume energy and therefore reduce velocity, right? Of course, I know the answers may be classified.
Wayne, you’re right about the consistency of pcps. And I did notice that the stiff trigger on the B30 will always hold it back. I noticed a real difference from the match trigger on the M1. On the other hand, one of the big thrills yesterday was using the B30 to pop a shotgun shell case at 50 yards–not every time but with some regularity. There is definitely something to owning high-powered airguns.
Ever thought of getting a Feinwerkbau to complete the collection? That would be fascinating to hear what that’s like.
Brody, that was quite a sudden reversal to the Marauder. What changed your mind? Don’t forget, pump, pump, pump. He he.
Matt61
Matt,
Extra velocity comes from more powder, no rifling and perhaps a lighter projectile.
The rifled 105 mm was also faster than a mile a second.
B.B.
Wayne,
The challenge is the fun part of the springer, unless of course one isn’t in the mood for that kind of fun:). The way I shoot (offhand and badly), a little inconsistency in the rifle isn’t going to do any harm:).
Matt,
Now, hit the primer on the shotgun shell:).
Matt,
I'm with you on the trigger thing for sure.. that's one place the Avenger 1100 is a winner over the B-30 for sure..
And nothing will get me thinking trade faster, air gun or firearm, on a pistol or rifle… than a heavy trigger!!
Don't worry…Brody will find a fire station, welding shop or scuba store, and won't be needing to PUMP, PUMP, PUMP!!
Which "Feinwerkbau" Matt/folks?… is the one that's a must for a collection…
BG_Farmer,
You jest when you say… "The challenge is the fun part of the springer".. and for me, one challenge at a time is fine.. staying on target.. not holding the rifle just right and hoping the spring lands so it doesn't twist the gun..
….but it's true that unless one is bench rest shooting, or a real master in Springer field target.. most times the difference in groups is lost to the shooters ability…
But on the other hand & at the same time, a poor shooter like myself, can be a much better shooter with a PCP.. and learn to be a great shooter in a much shorter time frame… so why not shoot a PCP..
Even the lowest priced one, the Discovery is more accurate than the best springer in my hands!!
Wayne,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
Hope this is not a double post.
Wayne,
I’m with you high power springs are not for me. Give me a high power PCP every time.
But… I do like black powder even though smokeless powder burners are so much less trouble. So joy of overcoming the challenge of a springer is understandable.
Who knows once we get bored with PCP we might go back to high power springs.
DB
Hi, I am new to air gunning and have a M34, I put a macarri spring and seal in it, also a new guide andthe tar stuff. three questions, how much of the tar is enough? and can too light a pellet be damaging? As in RWS basics at 7.0 instead of 8.2 grain pellets, and what velocity range should I see after firing a little over a 1000 shots?
Thanks, Roy.
Dr. G.
Congrats on the IZH 46… I was buying the Record Champion (like a Beeman P 1, I think) at the same time.. and thinking of the 46 too, but you beat me to it!!
Happy shooting!
Wayne
Roy,
The Basic pellet is not too light for the 34.
That light Basic pellet should be shooting above 900 f.p.s.. You failed to mention the specifications of the Maccari spring that you installed and as he makes many different ones there wilkl be a wide variation in velocities.
As for how much tar to use, read this report:
/blog/2006/08/spring-gun-tuning-part-10-lubrication-and-reassembly/
Today’s report also has a photo of tar on a spring.
B.B.
B.B.
I just tested the 953 Target Pro that I bought for $40 the other day in and I was shooting 5.4 grain Crosman penetrators and with one pump got between 505 fps and 530 fps, but when I did that ‘thing’ it shot as high as 595 fps!!!
With the Gamo armour hollow points + steel ball imbedded in the tip, they shot around 375 fps…I think the Gamo lead armour pellets are 9.6 grains.
I am glad that PA still has the 5 round clips in stock, I’ll have to get some to really increase the plinking potential of this cool target air rifle!