by B.B. Pelletier
Guest blogger
This is part 2 of CJr’s guest blog about how he outfitted 3 of his IZH-61 rifles with different sight options.
If you’d like to write a guest post for this blog, please email me.
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by CJr
Experimenting with peep sights
Previously, I told you about scoping the IZH-61. Today, I’ll tell you my experiences with replacement open sights. A surprising discovery was that all of the peep sights tended to shoot very high.
I installed the Beeman Sport aperture sight on one of the rifles and tried to sight it in. I couldn’t get any closer than 1.5″ ABOVE the bullseye with the sight adjusted down to the max. I then mounted it on another IZH-61 and was able to get it down to 1/4″ BELOW the bull at max down! Since it worked acceptably on this IZH-61, I left it there and did not test it on the other two. I did double-check the mounting on both rifles to make sure the clamps were in the rail properly. Also, this sight seems to mount canted to the left, and I had to adjust windage a few clicks to get on target. This sight has ZERO scope creep–I think because it has two, although small, set screws along the length of the base. They don’t show in the following photo because they’re on the right side of the sight.
Beeman Sport Aperture site mounted. Note that it’s mounted as far forward as possible in order to bring the point of impact down farther.
On another rifle, I installed the Avanti Precision diopter sight, and it worked good but I had to adjust it all the way down, as well. I tried it on only the one rifle; and since it worked, I left it there. I had to adjust windage on it, also, but only one or two clicks. This sight has only one screw on the base, and it may have creeped 1/32″ since I mounted it. I gave the screw another crank with pliers, so maybe that’ll take care it. You put your eye right up to the eye cup on this one, and it shuts out any unwanted glare; however, it tends to make the target look very small.
Daisy Avanti Precision diopter sight mounted. Note that even though the eyepiece is farther back than the scope configuration, there’s no eye relief problem since lenses are not involved.
Mendoza report
I liked the Mendoza sight. It’s very similar to the Beeman; and it’s comparatively inexpensive, very well built and adjusts nice with positive clicks. I really liked the price since I wanted to buy three of them. However, I put the Mendoza sight on my IZH-61 but couldn’t get it to go low enough to shoot at 10 meters. My shots were about 2-3 inches too high. With the Mendoza sight adjusted all the way down, the top of the front sight needs to be almost touching the inside of the front sight hood in your sight picture to compensate. Even if I made a front sight that way, it may still be hard to see the target without cutting off the sight hood. I don’t know on which rifle I mounted it, and I didn’t try it on another one to see if it made a difference. I don’t think it had any scope creep. It has two hefty set screws that should hold it pretty tight.
Conclusion
With all the sights, I did not have to remove the gun’s stock rear sight. Merely crank it all the way down, and it’s out of the way. All the peep sights had good solid construction and were very easy to install and adjust.
I like the construction of all of them; but with my eyesight, the Avanti works best. The Beeman and the Mendoza have larger apertures, so I don’t get that much of the “pinhole” effect that sometimes improves focus. I get a fuzzy sight picture with or without glasses. I’m near-sighted. Either the front sight is in focus or the target is, but not both. The Avanti has a smaller aperture, so I can see the sights and target much clearer. But it appears that I’m looking down a tube, and the target looks so much smaller than through the Beeman. With such a small picture of the target, I can’t get any precision. Don’t look for me on the 2009 competition trail.
Nice post, like yesterday. Yesterday we discussed pellet trajectory.
BB, Cjr, Wayne etc .
Do any of you guys use the software: "Chairgun" ?
It honestly is brilliant and gives the right stuff 97% of the time. Do any of you State-side folks use it? Just wondering what do you guys think of it?
A suggestion on the "canted" Beeman peep:
The two tiny setscrews are intended for pre-adjustment of the clamping foot, and the main clamping force comes from the relatively larger vertical screw in the sight base. To properly mount the sight, you need to remove the sight carrier from the base by backing the vertical adjustment screw all the way out. Then mount the base separately on the rail. You kind of have to play with both the setscrews and the large vertical screw to get the base to sit flat. Again, most of the clamping force comes from tightening the vertical screw.
That's one of the reasons I prefer the Mendoza. Mounting is much more straightforward, with just two beefy setscrews. Unfortunately, the Mendoza doesn't adjust low enough for a lot of guns. I have had good luck extending the front post on some guns, but it's hard with a hooded front sight. For what it's worth, the Mendoza works perfectly with the factory front sight on a chinese TF58, and I would imagine it would work equally well on other guns with a relatively high front sight mounted on top of a muzzlebrake, such as the Daisy 853 or some of the Gamos. Also, the Mendoza accepts Williams inserts, which are available in several sizes from Midway or Brownells.
Jim in PGH
Jim in PGH,
Thanks for that sight mount tip. I'll try doing that.
All, I will not be available to answer questions about these last two IZH-61 posts until Saturday. I volunteer my time helping stroke survivors for an organization called Retreat and Refresh based in Peoria, Illinois and this week we have a weekend camp in Lewistown starting today. Unfortunately we can't afford WiFi yet in the lodge. I know! I'll work on that.
I'll catch up with things when I get home.
-CJr
CJr,
Great writing again.. thanks for your report.. useful info on the different peep sights.
I also like the mendoza peep that Vince got mounted on the pre-war Diana 27.
Thanks for your volunteering your time for others (here and elsewhere).. that's a good thing!
Marauder report a little later..
Ishaq,
I've just got "chairgun" too… It's very cool, but I'm still learning how to use all of it..
Wayne
Ashland Air Rifle Range
Chuck,
Im happy to hear you help stroke victims. Especially since my grandpa had a stroke unexpectedly. Now they tell us hes a good candidate for a heart attack. He is having a stress test sometime this week. Anyways, i will try moving my mendoza sight forward to se if that helps, i will also try raising the front sight with something. I will find something, and maybe JB weld it onto the front post. Thanks again for the post.
Brody
CJr,
There must be a way we can figure this thing out. I think instead of working on the rear sight so much they should have a revised version of the front sight with a taller blade insert/ or larger hood.
If you're interested in getting an IZH-61 with the 6×32 Bug Buster scope, I've set up a pre-packaged deal on Pyramyd Air's site that includes the gun, scope, rings & adapter. This will save you some bucks compared to buying these items separately.
Edith (Mrs. B.B.)
CJr, if Im not mistaken you shouldn't put your eye right up to the eyecup of the Avanti sight.
All the cup is supposed to do is ensure that there is no glare falling onto the aperture.
I find that keeping my eye about 3-4" back gives me a crisp aperture circle that is easy to centre the front sights in. If you move your eye too closely it is very hard to detect if the front sight is trule centred.
CowBoyStar Dad
B.B.
Have fun in New York.
Chuck, how interesting. And the humiliation continues since I did not find any of the iron sights easy to install. Jim in PGH is right about the different functions of the various screws for the Beeman Sport Aperture sight, but I couldn't even get it clamped. With maximum pressure, it was sliding around like it was on grease. And I could hardly do anything with the tiny set screws. The Allen wrench to adjust them looked like a thread, and I started rounding the screws out quickly.
The Avanti sight would slide off the rail within a few shots no matter what kind of superhuman Hulk pressure I applied.
I had the same experience as everyone else with the Mendoza shooting high although I did get it installed.
But unless you want a competition format, I suspect that the Bug Buster is the best option anyway, and it's a great stroke of luck to have a good scope that fits so well on such a small rail. I would encourage anyone to go for the package that Edith has so nicely negotiated.
Chuck, I've just finished reading David Tubb's phenomenally detailed, semi-autistic account of vision in shooting. The big message is avoid eye strain. This can result from sighting arrangements that force you to strain your eyes which is what the Daisy aperture did for me along with inadequate indoor lighting which I was using at the time. As B.B. has said, you really want to light up that target indoors. Also, avoid staring for long periods at a shot–very hard on the eyes–although we know you're not supposed to linger on shots for very long. Tubb says that you touch off the shot as soon as you get an X-ring sight picture. Eye-strain may also be a reason to cut down on my number of shots per day.
Tubb also is very firm on something we've talked about here which is to focus on the front sight and let the target blur when using open sights. Focusing simultaneously on both front sight and target is strictly speaking impossible and trying will just wear you out.
As another idea, Tubb talks about a sight extension tube which is just an open tube attached to the muzzle for mounting the front sight and increasing radius. However, machining such a tube so that it fits properly is out of reach of all but the most skilled. This tube is about 6 inches.
Wayne, bring on more of the Marauder when you can. I see that the S410 has taken an early lead….
In other news, my B30 seems to have eclipsed my IZH 61 for accuracy. The stability from the extra weight forward seems to make the difference. I'm reminded of some of the comments on the B30 about how you can do no wrong with it. If I only had a Rekord trigger or even and IZH 61 trigger to go with the B30, I would be happy to take on the TX200. Since the B30 is no longer offered by PA, I would encourage people to look at the RWS 48 which it copies. Fantastic gun.
Matt61
Matt61, the B30 (and the near-identical B21) doesn't really copy the Diana sidelevers. They are based on the same general design and can use the same spring and seals – but the similarity ends there. Major components are not interchangable, and the trigger mechanism is completely different.
Despite what you might hear from some B21/B30 fans, the Diana gun is far superior.
I hate to interupt the train of thought in this here comments chain, but i have a question for Big Bore Addict; the Pyramid site shows the Menodoza RM2000 rifle as a 3-medium out of 5 on the loudness scale, is there any way to quiet it down any more? Furthermore, is a gas spring available? Is there a reputable gunsmith known for tuning these?
Good Day All –
I heard back from the Michigan State Police regarding the silencer/Gamo Whisper issue. The woman I talked to said that it had come to their attention that the gamo whisper was being sold with a built in silencer which is in violation of Michigan law. The MSP are working closely with the attorney general to determine if this is a legal gun or not. She said that disposing of the gun, I should say the ficticious gun as I do not own a whisper, was not necessary at the present time, but that I should check back in a couple weeks to see if a final determination had been made. It appears Michigan's Gamo Whisper owners are safe for now.
-Aaron
Aaron,
I spoke with Deb Smith, manager of the Michigan State Police Firearms Division, on Wednesday. We spoke for about 15 mins., and she was VERY specific that airguns are classified as firearms in MI. However, only those 30" or smaller in overall length require a permit & background check. Long guns are not tracked and do not require a license or background check…but they're still firearms if they have a rifled barrel.
It is against Michigan's law for any firearm to have a silencer–whether the gun uses powder or air is inconsequential. There's no permit for it.
When I asked Deb about guns that had internal baffles (like the Marauder & the Talon SS), which were just parts that couldn't possibly be used to muffle/silence the report of a powder gun, she read me the law–verbatim. It IS clear that they're not allowed.
Not one to be dissuaded quickly, I asked her about shrouded barrels, such as the Air Arms guns. Those shrouds wouldn't work on a powder gun. Sigh…she re-read the law about silencers. She wouldn't budge and never told me that there was any reconsideration or that they were rethinking the application of the law.
Please let me know to whom you spoke on the phone. I'd be curious if it's the same woman. I look forward to hearing if she calls you back & what the final decision will be.
Edith (Mrs. B.B.)
Chuck, Jim, etc.,
Glad its not just me and the Mendoza. It is a really well made and smooth-functioning sight, just too high. If the front sight is a simple post, that's relatively easy to extend, but the globe on my 36-2 is part of a cast (not plastic as some appear to be) cocking lever retainer, so it requires some body work:).
Matt,
I can't really argue that a scope isn't better than a peep (although you know I want to), but it looks like the little 61 is a casual target spring gun in futuristic clothing, so it would be nice to have a peep easily fit it.
I'm glad your B30 is finally coming into its own. With my own clunks, I've often wondered how many of the accuracy problems reported for the same models are a result of expectations. The weight forward is a big help, which is why my underlever gets used so much. One other thing to check is stock fit. It seems like the Chinese went overboard in responding to big American requests for increased LOP. My 36-2 was excessively long in LOP and my wifes little QB88 wasn't far behind. Shooting either one offhand put enough strain on the back to cause discomfort, but shortening the stocks' LOP moved the balance point back far enough to make the weight an advantage without removing the forward bias completely.
Mrs. BB,
I spoke with Deb Smith as well. When she first called I was unavailable so she left a message which I have saved, it basically said what I said in my first message. I agree that she was very clear in the fact that air guns are considered firearms in MI and anything that muffles their report, be it shrouds, baffles, or a silencer is illegal. The thing I was curious about is what if you purchased one of these guns from a local retailer and having done so assumed you were in compliance with the law? Then what, do you need to sell or dispose of the gun? That is when she told me that was still uncertain and I should check back in a couple weeks to see if a determination had been made. I wasn't implying that the whisper or a similarly silenced gun was legal, just that the gamo whisper owners didn't have to bury their gun in the backyard just yet.
-Aaron
Aaron,
Thanks for clearing things up. Basically, you're waiting to hear if your gun is grandfathered in. I'm guessing they'll let it slide because there's no way for them to find out who bought what.
Edith (Mrs. B.B.)
I just noticed that on Airgunarena.com in the forum section a Debra Smith from the Michigan State police has posted to their membership that NO silencers of any kind are allowed in Michgan. She specifically mentions the Gamo Whisper…and that any dealers who have it are in contravention of Michigan Law.
And I though Canada had draconian laws!!
CowBoyStar Dad
I've been shopping for a plinking air rifle to replace my Crosman Nightstalker (CO2 = $$$$) and I was wondering how well this would work as a replacement. I'm shooting at targets 20 meters out, and I'm wondering if the lower powered rifles will stay accurate past 10 or 15 meters.
Vince,
That's interesting about the degree of copying since I recall from somewhere–a random website I've long since forgotten–that the Chinese shamelessly copied successful Western models down to the last detail, even including the flaws. I have no doubt that the RWS 48 has better overall workmanship. But I want to cling to B.B.'s speculation from long ago that the BAM barrels might be comparable. The B30 barrel does seem to be comparable to the IZH 61 barrel which I know is good although my short distance does not allow a lot of discrimination. How is your reconstruction work going with your BAM rifle?
BG_Farmer, I guess the Chinese were aiming for the Western market and not their own. The B30 is pretty big. The LOP seems comfortable for me at 6'2" however maybe I don't know what an ideal fit is. You should get an IZH 61.
Matt61
Hey everyone, I have been extensively reading the blogs about the izh 61, and also, a few other guns. This might be a really hard question, but, comparing the izh61, daisy 953, the daisy 853's and the other stocks, how would you list from the most accurate? to be more practical probably the 61 vs 953, because of the pricing. also, the only downside for the izh61 is that it cannot be used for competition. so competitions only accept single shot guns? I'm not really sure about the info. So if any of you guys have either rifles, please help me and give me pros and cons of your experiences of it. thanks very much!
Regarding MI and the State Police and the Attorney General, this is exactly the danger we, the citizens of the US face. The law is not being interpreted by the courts but by the Police and by Attorneys that work for the State. Notice I said State and not the People. One attorney general can be lax and interpret the law as not applicable while another can be extremely aggressive.
Aaron, the reason I suggested a neutral attorney is that they will have your interest as primary and they will research or know about legal precedence, ie, court decisions, on how a particular law that is poorly worded and might be hazy as to intent or subject to interpretation, has actually been interpreted by the courts.
This country now gives too much power to bureaucrats who can make our lives miserable.
Hell, this is quite a rant and quite uncharacteristic of me. Wayne LaPierre would be proud…
Marauder Report,
Really good things first;
First, the scope I put on it was a used Swift 6-18×50 I got from the yellow classified.. I used Accushot high two piece mounts, and there is lot's of room for the mag.. The scope base is more than 2" on each side of the magazine.. lots of room for eye relief on your favorite scope..
It's really quiet! This .177 cal is more quiet than the AAs410 .177.. by just a little.. That makes the Marauder very, very quiet!! The ping of the hammer spring is louder than the report from the barrel!!…
It's damn accurate! late last night indoors at 20 yards, I set up the 125 page of 3/8" rings that is reduced photocopied from 4 regular 25-3/4" ring x 25 yard NW Airgunning bench rest targets.. so if you get a pellet centered inside the ring, there is a 1/16" ring of white left.
90 shots from a 2,800 lb fill, gave me 38 shots inside the ring with out touching the edge.. only 4 shots outside that didn't touch the ring.. the balance on or outside touching the ring…
That's about as good as the USFT or any of the Field Target rifles we have here!!!
more later… Dinner is ready..
Wayne
Hi Anonymous, I can't speak from experience about all three of the rifles you mentioned, but I can speak for numbers of reports on this subject that I have read.
Ultimately, accuracy is subjective and rooted in individual fit to the gun. So given that the IZH 61, Daisy 953 and Daisy 853 are in the ball park, I don't know that there is a definitive answer, and there are also probably very few people who have shot all three much less owned them long enough to get really know them.
I would probably agree that the Daisy 853 has the edge. B.B. claimed in one post that an IZH 61 that was given a custom stock of several hundred dollars was able to keep up with an 853 in some competition which suggests that the stock model might lag. On the other hand, one of the IZH 61 comments from PA claims that the 61 is more accurate than the 853 on this individual's school team.
As for the 953 and 61, B.B. claims in his last four part report on the 61 that the 953 is more accurate than the rifle he tested. However, I'm inclined to think that test was a bit colored by B.B.'s earlier experience with a bad rifle that could not shoot. The replacement rifle shot a best 5 shot group at 10m of .432 inches which seems a little large. A web test claimed a best group of about .3 inches. I've shot 10 shot groups of .25 at 20 feet standing and others have reported very good groups. I think we got a quarter inch group at 10m rested reported the other day.
The 953 has also had great groups reported with one blogger claiming to shoot .02 at 5 yards rested. I think the pellet brand was Beeman Lasers or something like that.
I suspect the differences lie in shooting features more than intrinsic accuracy of the barrel. And while the claim that the IZH61 is as accurate as a $2000 rifle might be a little exaggerated, it may not be by much. The limits to IZH 61 accuracy seem related to its recoil or what is described as its hold sensitivity. I have never noticed "hold sensitivity" although that may because it is masked by my offhand shooting position. I do notice that the rifle is sensitive to technique. Without the artillery hold, this gun would have been a complete loss to me. Even with the hold, I suspect that there are few rifles that are better at checking your follow-through. Without it, the pellets will start to stray. I suspect that this sensitivity is at the root of some wildly divergent reviews of this rifle. Some love it. Others claim that it is a fraud that can't shoot. Bad shooting technique would explain a lot of inaccuracy. Also, some people seem very uptight about the loose fit of the pellets in the clip. But as long as you point the barrel down to load, and keep your thumb over the back of the clip as you insert it, there's no problem. And when you do send a pellet home, the sensation is marvelous.
The barriers to the 953 seem to be a mediocre trigger which I personally can't stand as well as the distraction of the loading process which seems to involve both working a bolt and a pump handle. And some have complained about the stiffness of the pumping action. Whatever it is it sounds heavier than the 12 pound lever of the IZH 61. There have been raves of the 953 and none of the outright disgust of some reviews of the 61.
Anyway, that's what I've gathered. I've overcome the once near-uncontrollable impulse to buy the 953 and see how it compared to the 61, but maybe you can do that.
Matt61
Wayne,
I can see you're a man of honor giving the Marauder its due and sending my wavering loyalties back in its direction. It is cheaper than the S410. Tell us about the trigger and the things that were not really good.
Matt61
Fred,
I don't disagree that there are bogus interpretations of the law. But I would just say that this isn't a new thing, and that the nature of our legal system seems to have allowed a lot of misinterpretation and abuse from the beginning. I think that the theory is that with maximum advocacy by all sides, the extreme positions are supposed to cancel out and the rights and wrongs will be exposed through conflict to a neutral third party. However, it is a pretty wild ride with travesties and delayed justice along the way.
Matt61
Wayne,
Thanks for your words about the Marauder. If you could, please, about what is the fps range with its power adjustment feature. Thanks so much.
Mr B.
Hey guys, man, if I just have the funds, i would buy all three! but nope, I'm broke, j.k. hehe. I'll still be researching more around to find the good buy. but you guys really push me for the 61! thank you all for the good information! good luck to all! hopefully for me too =)
Glad I don't live in Michigan at the moment.
Anybody know the skinny on the new, soon to be available Beeman Mach 12.5 rifle? Is it worth waiting for over a Falcon Hunter with a gas spring conversion? I really like the Beeman's wood stock over the Falcon's plasic one.
Ralph
Great dinner..
Ok.. the light is fading so I only got 20 shots through the crony..
JSB Exact 8.4 .177 cal. Filled to the recommended 2,500 to match factory settings.. 961fps, 964, 953, 967, 969, 971, 973, 968, 967, 971, 962, 959, 958, 960, 957, 953, 953, 953, 951, 953.
I don't know where it's set from the factory now.. It's about right for 10.2 exact, they will go about 870fps I'd guess… I'll check tomorrow..
Trigger..
It's got a long first stage from the factory.. or mine does.. when you finally get to the meat, she breaks pretty clean, about 3 lbs… I'd guess.. but it's adjustable and I haven't got into it yet. I don't like any first stage.. just about 1 lb first pressure is what works for me, so I hope I can change the settings on the trigger.
.. but it's not bad from the box if your not use to high quality Field Target triggers.. The manual says it's needs to be adjusted by a professional.. gulp.. I'll try anyway.. I did most of the other FT rifles..
MR. B.
Haven't tried the power adjuster yet..
Back to testing.. maybe more later tonight..
Wayne,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
B.B. or anyone:
Have you heard of the WGC Shop in Hong Kong? They have an airsoft gun I want.
Are they reliable?
How much of and what kind of a hassle, if any, is it to import an airsoft gun through US Customs?
Anything else I should know?
Thanks
More Marauder..
From a 2,500 lb fill it got 52 shots with out loss of POI, then 20 more that ended about 1/4" low at 20 yards.. Stopped shooting at 1,200 lbs
It seems to take the 2,800 lb fill without valve lock and that adds 20 more shots.. I'd like to know what the FPS of the last shots were.. should know tomorrow I hope.
I still don't like the plastic magazine.. It was hard to figure out how to load..
You have to bend the plastic cover up, rotate it all the way around and then bend it up onto the bump again, put the first pellet in, keeping a finger under so it doesn't fall out… then rotate the cover back the other way dropping in the rest of the pellets..(the rest don't need the finger under).. then bend the cover up on top again..
It's pretty funky really.. The good part is the number system works well.. you can easily see how many shots you've taken..
It looks like the extra mags will cost about $20.. not to bad.. the Air Arms plastic mags are $35 or so. and the very high quality RC machine aftermarket are about $50 ea.
The straight pull cocking lever takes twice the effort (still only 5 lbs maybe) of the sidelever AAs410 (2 lbs).. but so far it advances pretty well.. It's not as easy to cock and keep your eyes on target as the AAs410, but close..
more tomorrow
Wayne,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
Wayne,
Thanks for your update.
Mr B.
Hey BGFarmer heres a good one for ya
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090605/ap_on_re_us/us_guns_in_church
JTinAL
And I though Massachusetts was on the harsh end of the scale… at least they're leniant with air guns.
Joe B,
I used to be big into airsoft, and I have heard nothing bad about WGC. I haven't used them, but I have used Redwolf (also in Hong Kong) and had no problem. Redwolf shipped it with a plastic orange flashhider attached and the real flashhider in the box. Also, they generally put an plasticky glue/putty type thing over any unregistered trademarks, but that can be peeled off.
Matt61
I also installed the Daisy Avanti diopter rear sight to my IZH-61 and had the same problem of it sliding out after a couple of shots.
Solved the problem by using JB Weld epoxy. I have shot thousands of pellets and the sight remained in place.
You may want to try this; but be aware that this will permanently glue the sights. You may not be able to remove it to use in another gun.
Stingray
Kiwi90,
Thanks for the info.
WGC's website states that all their guns shipped to the US must have all trademarks permanently (their words) removed. Doesn't sound too good for a Tanaka Colt SAA replica. All Redwolf's SAA's are sold out.
Free thought on front sight and peep combination. Use a bow sight lens for a front sight.
Pinkerton Det. I know this is an old blog comment, but in the hopes that you get this message: I have just come across your picture of the fiber optic clear aperature disc and have to know where you got that or how you made that.
I just got back into airgunning and I had that same idea when I was tinkering around with a peep sight for the first time. I found one commercially made globe front sight made by Trueglo and one made by Beeman with a fiber optic attached to the top of a post, but your clear disc is such an elegant looking solution. How well does it work for you, and how far can you aim without the dot covering too much of the target?