by B.B. Pelletier
Before I start this report, here’s an interesting tidbit. I heard something interesting about the Edge target rifle at the SHOT Show, so yesterday I did a special test. The results were dramatic enough that I will make another report on the Edge on Monday. If you own an Edge or are considering buying one, you won’t want to miss this!
Now, let’s get on with today’s report.
Hy Score model 801 is a handsome vintage spring rifle. Note the walnut stain on the beechwood stock. Beautiful!
Some interesting feedback on the first report of the Hy Score 801. One of our readers from Belgium says he’s never heard of nor seen this rifle in his country, so it may be scarce even there. And several readers commented on how lovely the rifle is. That’s my own assessment, as well. I’m so glad I’m able to bring your attention to this little-known classic springer from the 1940s.
Today, we’ll test the velocity of this rifle, and I’ll do two separate tests, because this unique breakbarrel spring rifle has a pellet seater built-in. Each pellet will be tested by using the pellet seater and, again, seating flush with the back of the breech.
Gamo Match
The first pellet I tried was the old standby, Gamo Match. These were the light 7.5-grain pellets. Seated flush with the back of the breech, they averaged 438 f.p.s., with a spread from 384 f.p.s. to 464 f.p.s. That’s a pretty big spread. When I load pellets, I always press them hard into the breech so they don’t fall back out as the barrel is closed. That may have been the reason there was such a large velocity spread–I theorize that some pellets were popping completely into the barrel while the ends of the skirts of others were remaining outside. The average muzzle energy was 3.2 foot-pounds.
Next, I used the pellet seater mounted on the rifle. It stops at the same depth every time you use it, so the pellet is a uniform distance into the breech. With the seater, the average velocity was 469 f.p.s., and the spread went from 464 f.p.s , to 474 f.p.s. That’s both a higher average velocity and a much tighter velocity spread. The average muzzle energy with the pellet seater was 3.66 foot-pounds.
The pellet seater sits atop the breech, waiting to spring into action.
This pellet is seated flush with the breech. The pellet seater shown here flips back up out of the way when the barrel is closed.
Pushing forward on the spring-loaded pellet seater seats each pellet a uniform depth into the barrel.
RWS Hobbys
RWS Hobby pellets were next. Seated flush with the end of the breech, they averaged 384 f.p.s., with a spread from 351 f.p.s. to 411 f.p.s. That works out to an average 2.29 foot-pounds. That’s a large drop from the energy of the heavier flush-seated Gamo Match. And the pellet seater revealed the reason why.
Using the pellet seater, Hobbys averaged 484 f.p.s. with a spread from 482 f.ps. to 490 f.p.s. Once again we see an increase in the average velocity, and this time a huge one of 100 f.p.s. At the same time, the velocity spread drops from 60 f.p.s. to just 8 f.p.s. From this we can learn two important things: (1) Deep-seated pellets are both faster and more uniform than flush-seated pellets in the 801 and (2) that RWS Hobby pellets have very large skirts. That was the reason they didn’t go faster when seated flush with the end of the barrel, even though I pressed them in hard. All of you who shoot rifles with weaker springs will want to pay attention to this.
JSB Exacts
The next pellets I tried were the JSB Exact domes that weigh 8.4 grains. I would normally expect a pellet this heavy to shoot slower than the Hobbys that are 1.4 grains lighter except for one thing. When I seated these pellets flush with the breech, I could feel each of them pop past the breech and into the barrel. All it took was my thumb pressure. So, the diameter of the skirt on this pellet must be very close to the 801’s breech diameter. That’s just a coincidence, but look what it does to the performance.
The flush-seated Exacts averaged 436 f.p.s. The spread went from 430 f.p.s. to 444 f.p.s., a spread of just 14 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy was 3.55 foot-pounds, which is more than one full foot-pound greater than the RWS Hobbys that were seated flush. I know these energy levels are low, but this is an energy increase of greater than 25 percent! That’s very significant.
When the Exacts were seated deep with the seating tool, the average was only 437 f.p.s. And the spread went from 432 f.p.s. to 444 f.p.s. Those values are practically identical to the first set, which means that the act of “breaking” each pellet past the breech is the most important step toward higher and more uniform velocities. I think we’ve learned something from this test! I’ll come back to it in a moment.
RWS R10 Heavy pellets
The final pellet I tried was the RWS R10 Match heavy pellet that weighs 8.2 grains. They gave an average 334 f.p.s. with a spread from 320 f.p.s. up to 339 f.p.s. These were all seated flush with the end of the breech. This was also the most uniform result I got from flush-seating, which tells me the skirts on this pellet are uniformly large and do not “break” past the breech to enter the bore with finger pressure, alone. At this speed, they deliver an average 2.03 foot-pounds–the lowest energy of this test.
When the pellet seater was used, the average velocity climbed to 416 f.p.s. and the spread went down just 4 f.p.s.–from 414 f.p.s. to 418 f.p.s. That’s remarkable uniformity, which you expect from a premium target pellet like this. The average muzzle energy was 3.15 foot pounds–another dramatic increase.
Analysis
This test was just supposed to be a quiet little velocity test of this unique old breakbarrel rifle, but using the built-in pellet seater has opened my eyes to a unique situation. It seems that a low-powered spring rifle may do better when the pellets are seated deeper into the bore. That’s something I need to explore more.
I also need to find out if this same relationship extends to the higher-powered springers. In other words, at what point does pellet seating cease to be an advantage. Or is there no point at which it does, and should we all be seating our pellets deeply?
Now, I’m not the H.P. White Labs nor the Shell Answer Man, so I’m not planning on doing a doctoral dissertation on this, though I won’t discourage any of you from doing one. So, don’t start wondering about group sizes with seated versus unseated pellets, seating depths correlating to velocities and groups sizes and stuff like that. I gotta blog to do here and plenty of products to look at as it is.
Still, I don’t suppose it would hurt to run a few tests as we go.
Blog Index for January 2010
1. A New Year's rant: Come on, manufacturers, give us some compatibility!
4. What I got for Christmas
5. What Edith got for Christmas (Edith)
6. AirForce Edge – Part 4
7. Daisy wire-stock first BB gun – Part 1
8. Sticking to the specs – a discussion on common sense
11. AirForce Edge – Part 5
12. How and when PA got started – Part 3 (Josh)
13. Healthways Plainsman BB gun – Part 4
14. Daisy wire-stock first BB gun – Parts 2 & 3
15. Daisy 25 dating information – Part 2
18. The Bronco from Air Venturi – Part 1
19. AirForce Edge – Part 6
20. The Bronco from Air Venturi – Part 2
21. Hy Score 801 – Part 1
22. Micro Desert Eagle concealed carry gun – Part 2
25. The 2010 SHOT Show – Part 1
26. The Bronco from Air Venturi – Part 3
27. The 2010 SHOT Show – Part 2
28. Daisy Powerline 953 Targetpro – Part 5
29. Hy Score 801 – Part 2
BB,
hmm, bullet seating. Now I'm curious! great report on a really cool looking airgun.
DSW
Also interested in seating, what was the depth the seater placed the pellets? I would like to try this on my kids Gamo Recons, and my Big Cat to see if there is a difference.
Casey
Casey,
I don't think the seating depth has anything to do with this effect. You'll see evidence of that in the test with the JSB Exacts. As long as the pellets were fully in the barrel, they performed the same whether they were just inside or one-eighth-inch deep. It's getting the skirt past the end of the breech that matters.
B.B.
Looks like we've got all weekend to try and figure out what 'special test' on the 'something interesting' means. Dang that BB Pelletier, and his infernal news teasers. I'd put my money on that it's something to do with the weights.
I thought that the built in pellet seater was a marvelous idea, and that was before I read on and discovered the results. Astonishing.
In the event someone is unaware, Pyramyd AIR sells the Beeman Pell Seat if you want to see how seating pellets works in your springer.
/product/beeman-pell-seat?a=711
Or, if you are anything like derrick38 or Nick, you can machine one with your right hand, while you roll a cigarette with your left.
(WV: misfoinc. MSNBC?)
I'm shallow.
When I saw the first picture of this gun in part 1 its' looks alone won me over. Slender, no nonsense design with checkering in all the right places and a rounded pistol grip.
Now I read about a built-in pellet seater. I'm a sucker for these little functional details on a gun.
Seems that airgun manufacturers in the 1940's completely understood the significant impact on performance that fully seating a pellet resulted in.
Interesting how these little performance enhancing tidbits are lost in time.
kevin
B.B.,
Hope this nasty storm stays out of your neighborhood.
kevin
Everyone,
I'm curious if anyone is willing to step up and help out with answering the comments left under older articles.
I know this requires a lot of B.B.'s time. The benefit to you is expanding your airgun knowledge and experience.
Anyone willing to help out the airgun community?
kevin
Gee thanx BB,another reason to want a chrony.:)
I've been using a small star driver socket
on my 490 to seat the pellets,but that was just to prevent the pellet from sneakin out when I closed the breech.
I never thought about it possibly improving performance.Now i'll have to do a penetration test both ways to see if it
makes a noticeable difference.I have stopped using the CPHP in this gun because
of the harsh fireing cycle,now I wonder
if that could be improved by deeper seating.I think the skirts are too solid
for the low pressure of this gun to blow
them out for a good seal.Maybe I'll try 1 or 2 to see how they fire.
As always thank you for all your efforts
JTinAL
B.B.
Brilliant to think of testing both seated and unseated!
I'll add that comparison to the USFT test for valve lock between 1,800 and 1,600 fill pressure. Since USFT #6 just arrived from Billy, I might also try it on the 20fpe gun. We have guests for the weekend, since it's my wife Chris's birthday and mine is next week.. so I don't know when I'll do this testing, but I'm set on finding out now!
Wacky Wayne, Match Director, Ashland Air Rifle Range
Pellet seating – I’ve tried both ways with a Beeman Pel-Seat that makes it really easy to get two exact depths and flush has always way won over deep. So much so that I gave up the exercise years ago. However, I don’t recall ever trying it in such a soft shooter.
I guess I should have kept at it.
Anyway, my thoughts are maybe you are getting some blow by that seals up when the pellet is set deeper? Is the breech seal good?
In any case, that rifle is a looker.
Kevin,
I've watched your answers to the comments posted on the old blogs with awe. The depth and breadth of your knowledge was at times intimidating to me–big shoes to fill, but it's a doable project if enough people get involved.
There is alot of satisfaction watching a new person being nurtured and helped by our airgun community.
Those of you who are interested just have to let B.B. know and he'll get you set up to receive the questions that are posted to the old blogs in your e-mail.
Mr B.
PS Slinging Lead–thanks for your index!
Mr B.,
Thanks for the kind words.
Hope everyone realizes how much time you have unselfishly contributed to the blog.
I appreciate your devotion and hope there are others that will step forward and contribute. It's a great experience and very rewarding.
kevin
Wayne
So many USFTs. So little time.
PS: A deliriously happy birthday to you and your better half. We should cut off your beard and count the rings to find out exactly how old you are!
Mr. B
The index is to help me, nobody else is allowed to use it. MINE!
Kevin
I would like to help shoulder the load for you and Tom. Karma demands that I give back. I don't have much experience and sometimes I get tired of making stuff up, but I think I could at least direct folks to the current blog. You can go ahead and sign me up.
Slinging Lead,
Good for you! Thank you!
Not knowing all the answers isn't as important as knowing where to find them. Almost all the answers are in the archives of articles that B.B. has written and/or in the comments that have been posted. Using that little search box will help you to help others. While doing this your airgun knowledge will expand exponentially. Trust me.
Another benefit to your willingness to help B.B. answer these questions is that it frees up his time to test all the new products.
When answering these questions that are posted under articles written by B.B. many years ago I rarely passed up the opportunity to direct these airgunners to the current blog. Always enjoy experiences that these airgunners share with everyone and leading them to the active discussion helps all of us.
I'm sure B.B. will be in touch shortly and give you the tools necessary for you to help out.
Thanks again!
kevin
Slinging Lead,
Thanks for joining those of us who toil in the dark and dusty corridors of…we need a name. Suggestions anyone?
Did you hear the rumor about Edith's and Tom's birthday gift to Wayne? What wonderful and generous people they are!
Mr B.
Slinging Lead,
Thanks from both of us..
Karma… yep…
something to think about..
the older I get, the more I think about it.. cause it really seems to be there.. lurking..
Wacky Wayne
Kevin,
Well, you and Bg farmer did it. All the talk about refinishing a stock along with a Bailey’s and coffee after diner gave me the desire and confidence to attempt a second stock refinishing. It’s been a few years since my shop class in the 8th grade, but I tried to pull all those memories along with the recent postings together.
The victim or candidate was an RSW 92, which is actually a rebadged Cometa 220 I believe. Not a bad little rifle, all metal and wood and supposedly they are considered a notch above the Gamo's which are also Spanish made. It shoots a STD JSB at 735 fps and Silver Bears at 795 fps which puts it in a middle power range that is the rarest of all at this time. Decades ago this little 6 pounder would have been able to compete with the magnums of the day.
The reason I picked this rifle was the clear coat is the worst I have ever encountered. Drips, runs, and waves, this gun was either accidentally sprayed twice or made on a Monday after the laborer had run with the Bulls on the weekend. I will guess now that Kevin has run with Bulls, personally I have only drank a Red Bull now and then, but I digress.
The runs were so bad that I used a metal file to remove them before switching to the more traditional sandpaper. The sand paper part reminded me why I had not done this in years. My hands started to cramp and I became bored with the process quickly. I tried to occupy my mind by picturing the results, but that turned out to be a bad thing, as I am by nature an out of the box thinker. Long before that became a supposedly positive cliché, those of us whom have the trait knew being overly creative does not always bring positively received results. So immediately I found myself in the same mode that resulted in putting a sponge in place of the lead weight in the LG 55.
As my mind wandered I decided that rather than walnut I would go with a blonde look on the stock. Yes, something different. Thinking of the Bronco while sanding the poly that went all over including up my nose, I sneezed and on opening my eyes pictured a new interpretation of a blonde look. What about the hair with different color streaks in it? I like that, way more than just plain blond which has never done much for me. I decided that I would leave some faint areas of the old dark color and then hit it with a Golden Oak wiping stain I have left over from adding a dishwasher to a 60’s era’s kitchen.
The result, well she looks more like she has dark roots then sexy contrasting streaks. Perhaps I can pass it off as some new sort of desert camo? Anyway, it will be at least another 35 years before I attempt another stock refinishing… yes, a man does need to know his limitations.
Volvo,
Wonderfully told story as usual.
Not sure if I should be proud of the small part I played in this undertaking or ashamed.
If it's any consolation, refinishing poly on a stock is the hardest. One of the many reasons I dislike poly. Got any pictures?
ps-I've never run with the bulls. Luckily I'm way past my need to prove my machismo and survived with most of my parts intact.
kevin
Kevin,
If we don't have your nasty storm we have one just like it going on right now.
B.B.
JTinAL ,
Please let us know the results of your experiment.
B.B.
Volvo,
The breech seal is leather and raised, so it looks fine. I agree that seating is making it easier on the seal.
B.B.
Everyone,
Kevin and Mr. B. are right. Over time a lot of my volunteer question-answering help has gone. Things are getting busy for me again.
On Monday I will make another plea for a new group of people to help with the answers to older blog reports.
Thanks,
B.B.
Slinging Lead,
I will make an appeal on Monday. I would enjoy any help you can offer.
You don't have to know the answer to all the questions. Heck, I can only answer a small percentage of them. By having several people helping me, the burden of pointing people to the right resources get spread out, and that, alone, is a big help.
B.B.
Kevin,
The battery charger for my camera is MIA, but once found I will post a few snap shots.
Slinging Lead,
Why wait?
Please contact me:
Blogger@pyramydair.com
We can get this started right now. Besides I have a few resources I want to pass along to whoever signs up, and this will force me to put them into a message.
Thanks,
B.B.
Wayne,what day is your birthday???I should have known about you being an Aquarius…we are particularly prone to USFT disease….My b-day is Valentines day.You deserve a wonderful birthday!The misses deserves an even better one!Don't be shooting them candles off the cake!
BB Any talk at the SHOT Show about Co2 and Lead Pellet replacements? (ie more global warming nonsense and banned substances?)
Brian in Idaho
FYI here is a website you might find interesting regarding composite Tungsten ammunition and other lead replacement materials http://www.tungstenheavypowder.com/Tungsten_Heavy_Powder/Lead_Replacement/lead_replacement.html
Frank,
Thanks.. and your right… my wife deserves a big heaven bonus for putting up with me for 40 years now!
I'm a groundhog 2-2..
now off I go to spend the rest of the day with my very, very better half!
Wacky Wayne
B.B.
Great news about the upcoming tests on the Edge and the comparison of the old and new IZH 61.
JJK, I have a new model 61, and I don't want any better version of the rifle. It is terrific. As to whether I recommend it to your uses, the answer is a little complicated. For a bug-buster, it will do the job. It is accurate, but I have to admit that it is not as accurate as my B30. The weight of the B30 and the fine barrel will just hold on target through the recoil whereas the 61 will occasionally throw a shot. The pattern is clear over thousands of shots. I think weight may be at the root of the controversy over the plastic and metal versions. Manufacturing tolerances of the two may be the same, but the plastic receiver makes for a lighter rifle that is less stable.
For bug busting, it will do the job although a shot will get thrown once in awhile. While I intensely dislike hunting in any way that does not ensure a humane kill, I have to say for bugs I don't really care. But the very thing that detracts from hunting accuracy makes the 61 an unsurpassed training rifle. If you use the proper technique, the rifle will deliver 100%. This is significantly different from a rifle with a poor trigger which will always be a bit of a gamble. The 61 on the other hand forces good technique in the way that a heavier weight creates bigger muscle. I wonder if a 61 would make a greater training tool than a FWB 603 whose great qualities will forgive bad technique to a certain extent. That would be quite an experiment to train groups of shooters on a 61 and an FWB 603 and see who shot better. (Afraid I won't be able to run this experiment.)
Anyway, to summarize, I think that the difference between the plastic and metal versions of the 61 if it is real and not perceived is a function of the lighter weight of the plastic rather than a reduction in quality. And I believe that both versions would make for adequate bug-busting and unsurpassed training rifles.
Matt61
B.B.,
Just read your commment to Slinging Lead about contacting you at Blogger@pyramydair.com to sign up and get some tools to help him.
I can use all the help I can get, but couldn't figure out how to use the above link. See I told you I need help.
If you're looking for my e-mail address, it's Dropdog2@Aol.com
Mr B.
Frank B and Wayne,
HAPPY BIRTHDAY to both of you.
Mr B.
By the way, for my experiment with the 61 and the FWB 603, I meant to compare how shooters would ultimately shoot on the same rifle–say an Edge. Of course there is no comparison between the straight accuracy of the 61 and the FWB 603.
Matt61
Mr. B
I have a name for us, but if I wrote it down, Edith would delete it!
No, I didn't hear about Wayne's birthday gift. What do you get a man that has 10 of everything?
Brian,
There were more non-lead pellets at the SHOT Show.I doubt anything will be done about CO2, since global warming was shown to be a hoax.
No overt campaigns about this that I saw.
B.B.
Chuck
You are right on
JSB 15.8gr absolutely horrible
JSB 18.1gr ok, getting better
CPs yeah! Thats what I'm talkin' 'bout Willis!
Gonna run some JB bore paste through and see if I can get her shooting as well as TeX.
I have my Pellgunoil again and I am a happy man! Without this, my entire non-springer operation–like the German armies in Russia–had ground to a halt. My Daisy 747 was leaking air, and I didn't want to stress the seals of my 1077 or Walther CPSport by shooting them without Pellgunoil. This product should be sold by the pint.
Matt61
Mr.B,
I checked out that link you posted. And I wouldn't mount the laser on any rifle/pistol with considerable recoil.
Now for the reason, I've seen that laser in person. At least one that is very similar. But it was meant exclusively for air-soft. The thing with green lasers is that there are only a handful of chinese manufacturers who make them. The products are rebadged and shipped out to suppliers around the world. Anyone can buy a lot and put their name on it, or have it customised to their needs. Boblaser is one of the largest laser manufacturers based out of china and they do exactly this. They dont test these lasers with anything that generates recoil. What they do is use metal instead of plastic and assume that it should be strong enough. But we all know the tolerances to which the mounts are made. Any recoil or vibration will cause the modules to shift and eventually the beam will not be true, the adjustment turrets will work for a while. But soon the degree of adjustment wont be enough to get a true beam.
Another thing I wanted to warn you about is the rating of the laser. If you check the market, you will find 20mW lasers retailing at $40 as well as $400. Some of us will blame brand name to the high cost and get the cheaper one. But with lasers, especially green ones, there is a real reason behind the pricing. Now, if you remember my previous post, I said that a green laser starts with an IR laser at 1064nm. Expensive lasers are quoting true green laser radiation when they say 20mW. They have an IR filter installed which will stop any escaped IR radiation from the beam aperture. Cheaper lasers will not have an IR filter installed. So in truth a cheap 20mW laser will emit about 15mW of IR radiation and maybe 5mW of Green. Comparing the brightness of two equally rated lasers, one cheap and another from a reputed manufacturer will prove this. The 20mW laser from the reputed manufacturer will be much brighter than the cheaper 20mW model.
But what if you're happy with the brightness of the cheaper one? Should you still worry? The answer is YES!
IR is very harmful to our eye. Especially so, since its invisible. What happens when someone shines a bright light at us? We blink, shield our eyes or close them to protect our vision. Since IR is invisible, an exposure wont be noticed till the damage is done, since we wont blink! So evertytime you shine the laser, you're exposing your eyes to IR radiation.
Now, I'm assuming that the laser you have does not have a filter installed. I may be wrong. But its better to err on the side of caution and I'm sure you'd agree with me on that. There is something you can do. IR filters are available dirt cheap from ebay. You can get one and attach it to your green laser and its safe to use 🙂
Mo.
I can't resist again – what do you get for the man who has everything? Penicillin.
Maybe I can help the old comments questions too. I'll send something to you, BB when I get home from work today.
So you decided to sell the USFT to Wayne without consulting me?
Fred PRoNJ
derrick38
I went with the .22 cal
I got three extra mags, is that enough?
I'm more worried about pellets. You must be aware how fast I will go through them now.
Like i told Chuck, my accuracy is good so far, but I want to give the barrel a good scrub and see what happens. If only there was a good tutorial online on how to clean the barrel on an M-Rod;^)
http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.html
Great 3 part write up on the HW 35E by the way, and a gorgeous gun.
One day I will find this NOS airgun vortex that you and Volvo have discovered.
WV: deren. The name of my younger brother.
Volvo,
What you don't realize yet is that almost every refinishing experience goes pretty much the same way, but you keep going back trying to get it perfect:).
One thing that might have made it easier is the sandpaper — 60-80 grit will speed things up a lot, although you'll have a little more work sanding back up to final and you have to be careful not to take off too much wood.
Let it dry for a few days and strip it again (it will gum up the sandpaper if not dried through). If you just want a decent looking stock, it will be pretty easy once you've got the wood prepared, and I think you'll find it is a useful skill that will make you proud.
Then, if it all goes awry, send it to me for an almost factory finish or to Kevin for the custom-shop deal:). Well, I can't actually sign Kevin up, but I'll do my best to rescue your efforts if you can't get it like you want it, although I'll balk at a blond finish:).
Fred
You made me laugh so hard, I hurt myself.
BTW the most beautiful house I ever had the privilege to live in, was in Ridgewood, NJ!
Also, the Devils still suck.
Fred,
No, my USFT is still safely in my hands.
B.B.
Tom,
I think you mean "our" hands. More than once, you've been persuaded out of a gun that you really, really loved & didn't want to give up. But the other person was convincing & begged you to sell it to them. You just couldn't bring yourself to refuse.
I'm here to stand between you & anyone who thinks they can trade you out of your beloved USFT. (Hi, Wayne! 🙂
Now, where did I put that Wii boxing disk….
Edith
Edith,No man deserves a woman as good as you….BB comes mighty close!Now use your jab,body body head,stick and move….Wayne,just stay down!!!!!
MrB,thank you…another year gone.Lots to show for it,even today!My present to myself;a Daisy No.325 targeteer set circa 1952,including a 1952 model 25,rare 8th version,model 300 scope!a Daisy indoor cork ball shot tube and the daisy target w/ the bell that rings when you hit bullseye,all in the box,which is in moderate condition….AND was once owned by someone named Tom Gaylord???!!!!!!
Frank B,
Tom has often told me that he doesn't deserve me…I've never been really sure how to take that 🙂
Edith
Unless he's running a HIGH fever…He means it in a good way! One of my favorite teeshirts "My biggest fear is when I die,my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid!!!!!!"
lol, Frank B.
Yeah,Mo….that is called "nervous laughter" :]
That built-in pellet seater is cool! I want one on all my air guns!
/Dave
Bg farmer and Kevin,
This is it. Sit down, so you don't fall over…
http://s406.photobucket.com/home/chrismel_02/index
Frank B, indeed it is 🙂
Volvo, Is it weird that I like it too?
Maybe its missing some shine. But I like it!
Mo.
Volvo,
Really like the finish. Satin. I'm not a high gloss guy. What did you use over the stain?
Stain is unique one of a kind. I like the golden oak color. The dark roots…well….you have great taste in carpet.
I also browsed your other pictures. Hope you don't mind. I could look at that Walther all day long. What a gorgeous gun. Do you still shoot it much?
kevin
Volvo,
The good news is that the stain came out looking fine for a blond look, or at least it seems so to me. To be honest, however, I agree with your assessment that the vestigial stain wasn't the creative tour-de-force that you might originally have imagined:). Most of the work in finishing is sanding (including old finish removal if necessary), so it is not surprising that the easy solution wasn't perfect:). Assuming the wiping stain wasn't a polyurethane w/stain and that you haven't topcoated yet, it should only take a little while to get back to square one after its cured up. Strip it back with 120 (or 100 or 80 if necessary), sand through the grades to 180 or 220 or 320 as you desire, stain as before and you're done:)! I'm not trying to be patronizing when I say that the finish on the wood that you prepped properly looks nice — just go back at it and resist the shortcuts and it will be just like you wanted. What has taken me years to master is the concept of stopping a task in progress when it gets tiresome and come back later — it always goes twice as quickly later, and a day or two makes no difference in what needs to be kept an enjoyable project.
Slinging Lead,
I think 3 mags will cover you for now. I've got 4 and after they're empty, that's my hint to refill the gun with air.
Glad you're enjoying the HW35 EB series. So far it's making me nuts. Can't quite get the shot damped the way I'd like it and keep the velocity. Pretty sure it's due to the relatively massive spring and the short piston stroke. It's got a very pronounced sharp kick–though the vibration is gone.
Volvo,
Some wood chisels and some Dremel tool action and you could make that cheek piece really stand out.
By the way, your favorite nearby gun store has 2 Beeman pell seats in the case next to the airsoft stuff. –If you just gotta get another.
Are you going to the Summit Co. gun show this weekend?
B.B,
The cheapest alternative to a pell seat that I've seen is a regular allen key. Since they're bent at 90 degrees, the short end can be used to seat pellets in side levers with difficult to access breeches as well.
One can even use a regular lathe to thread an allen key for a small nut that can be screwed up and down the length of the key, to adjust the pellet seating depth! Clockwise for a deep seat and vice versa! What more can we ask for? 🙂
Mo.
Mo,
Try a bic pen.
kevin
Kevin,
It seems that only the FX Cyclone holds a permanent place in my heart, the rest are mostly one night stands, including the Walther which know belongs to Derrick38. The finish on the Cometa is just Minwax.
Mo,
Glad you are fond of it, like most great artists I probably will not be fully appreciated in my life time.
Bg farmer,
As much as I’ve tried, I don’t get much enjoyment out of such detail work. If I were a carpenter, I would do framing, not finish work. Currently, I am considering just dumping it on the yellow.
Derrick 38,
Don’t think I’ll make it to the Gun Show this weekend; the temptation to make a purchase is just too enormous.
Kevin, The only principle I have in life is that I wouldn't use anything that Doctor Emmett "Doc" Brown wouldn't! And You wont catch him dead in a ditch with a bic 😉
Volvo, would you bet ur life on it? 😀
Mo.
Here's a question 'The Old Man' posted on an older post.
"Does anyone know of a source for a Breech Bolt for a Crosman 101? somewhere along the line the bolt came out and was lost.
I have a 101 AND A 102, the 102 won't hold air and I have never shot it."
Mo.
Mo,
Again thank you for your time and help. I know the answer, but am hoping I don't. My laser isn't safe to use at all, even if not shinned directly into one's eye, is it? Does it matter wether or not it's night or day?
Went through a mind numbing 11 pages on ebay of IR filters and found one style that might fit. It's made to slide over a 30 to 33mm flashlight.
Thank you,
Mr B.
Volvo,
WHAT? The Walther is gone??!!! I'm short circuited.
Strip the cometa down. Restain with the golden oak. Put at least 5 coasts of RLO or waterlox on it. Rub out the oil with macarri's stock muc or brownells triple F or five F and be proud.
I'm growing to like the Renaissance Wax polish product but any quality carnuba wax can be substituted as a protectant.
kevin
Mo,
Try it. It works very well. Doc Brown would approve of an unconventional alternative.
kevin
Mr.B,
You're welcome anytime.
Your laser is assumably unsafe only if shined directly at someone's eyes or if you look at the dot from near. For example by shining it at a wall nearby. Time of day doesn't matter. As a laser only appears comparatively less brighter at day. For example, if you touch an open flame during the day, does it hurt less? 🙂
As for the IR filter, I'm sure you're laser has a screwed on head. You can get the chepest sort of IR filter (the filter alone) and stick it to the back of the laser's head. That's what I do if I get a good deal on a particular laser without a filter.
If you're absolutely safe with the laser, you dont really need the filter. But its good to have it either way. Lasers are really interesting and everyone would want to try it out. Especially kids if you have them around. So, just to be safe… 🙂
Mo.
Kevin,
I was jus kidding 🙂 It's just that a bic wont help with sidelevers with difficult to access breeches.
Also the fact that the allen is infitely cooler than a pen 😉
unless its this pen!!:
http://alvarfamily.com/swtacpenbox
http://edcforums.com/index.php?topic=29324.0
🙂
Mo.
George Hartwell left a new comment on "IZH 46 target pistol":
I've been looking online at quality air guns for almost a year w/o buying one. Now, I'm almost ready. I'd like one that is an excellent target pistol. The IZH looks great, but I have smaller hands and do not have the woodworking skills that may be needed to hone the grips to a perfect fit. Where would I look to find someone who could craft the grips correctly?
Beyond that, I've looked at the Evanix models. They appear cosmetically gorgeous in photos. However, the need to buy a scuba tank to fill the tank looks troubling and an inconvenience.
Which would anyone here recommend, the IZH or the Evanix?
BB,
At last a blog entry that I can help with! In order to provide an additional data point for your question on pellet seating and more powerful springers, I ran a test for you.
I chrony'ed my tuned Quest 800 with my best performing pellet (Beeman FTS) both ways and here are the results of two ten shot strings:
Flush with base block: Avg of 700.8 fps, with a low of 696.2 and a high of 704.3 fps.
Seated with the Beeman Pellseat: Avg of 677.4 fps, with a low of 641.6 and a high of 695.2 fps. The 641 was much lower than the next lowest of 668.7, so there may have been a problem with the pellet (without that one, the average would move up to 688.4 – still a good bit lower than than before and still a larger spread).
I should point out that the Beeman FTS fits the breach perfectly – the head engages tight as well as the base, and it takes a good shove with the thumb to bet the skirt flush to start with, so I don't think seating the pellet improves the seal. In other words, the results might be different with looser fitting pellets.
Also, as a .22, the pellet seater pushes the pellets in rather far – about 5mm deeper than flush. I think this a big factor at higher powers as this effectively increases the "combustion chamber" that results when the piston is almost bottomed out, thus impacting the peak pressure and ability to reliably and consistently diesel.
Alan in MI – formally just Alan, but there are two of us now 😉
The IZH and Evanix are about as dissimilar as possible while still being classified as pistols. You need to identify your intended use, then cope with the logistics.
Mo,
The Allen key trick sounds good. You can even file it down to just enter the bore.
B.B.
Mo,
I'm seeing that you are answering old comments. Bless you.
The pen that you provided a link to is stunning.
The bic pen has an advantages in that they are cheaper and when the cap comes off you have a pellet seater that can fit in the breech of sidelevers. I used a bic cap frequently on a RWS 54.
kevin
George Hartwell,
When you say target pistol, what do you mean? The IZH is a true target pistol while the Evanix is considered primarly a hunting PCP.
Only you can decide which one of those will fit the type of shooting you want to do.
As to custom grips pick your gun and I'm sure you'll get some good recomendations.
Mr B.
I have purchased Frank B's IZH 46 and am very happy with it. For me, it's a very long learning experience but I'm quite happy with what it does and it's accuracy. I think there are several people out in the airgun community that can help with the grips or even provide ones to your specifications but I've never really tracked them down. I'll have to do some research on Forum 54. I don't have any first hand knowledge regarding the Evanix.
Fred PRoNJ
BB Re Pellet Seating tests;
Totally agree with you on time well spent (NOT testing pellet seating depths)
I can see it now, Pellet Depth in Chamber X pressure + Velocity = the RMS of the Barrel length multiplied by coil spring size or, a .0001% potential improvement in accuracy. (emphasis on Potential)
Too bad human beings are over 70% of the accuracy equation! Once I get MY 70% under control, I'll work on that .0001%!
Brian in Idaho
Mo,
If you've got a lathe to thread the allen key, forget it altogether and make something from brass or better yet acetal (delrin). It'll be kinder to the breech.
Kevin,
It's true. I have a certain someone's LG55 and it's in use almost daily–with the lead weight and the barrel sleeve.
derrick38,
Wow. You've got a classic from a classic collector. From Gaines to Chris to you.
I've followed that vintage airgun from afar. The history of that fine 10 meter gun is mind blowing. I'm glad to know that you're enjoying that fine collectible on a daily basis.
I would really appreciate your insight about owning and shooting a terrific speciman like that.
kevin
Mo,
Gotta share this with you and I quote, "if you touch an open flame during the day, does it hurt less?:)" I'm still laughing to myself about that sentence.
Here are some of my thoughts on your most elegent teaching question: first I felt past dumb, helpless like a deer in road at night caught in headlights, told myself the only dumb question is the one not asked, what a great gotch ya question, but the overwhelming feeling is ALOT OF LAUGHTER. Thanks for sharing your sense of humor with me!
Mr B.
Alan in MI,
Well, you have narrowed the experiment a lot. Your .22 rifle develops about 14-16 foot-pounds, so maybe that is where the deep seating benefit ends. I think it ends even lower than that.
I'm thinking of experiments I can do to determine where the benefit ends. Your comment has helped a lot.
Thanks,
B.B.
Kevin,
I'm happy to help out with the old comments. Usually I see one of you doing it, so I figured why not ease some work for y'all.
And I tried the bic trick, worked great. 🙂 But I can't ditch my darlin allen key 😀
Brian in Idaho,
If manufacturers thought the same way, we wont have any advances in our field. If we find something that works for us, its only natural wanting to share it. Else we'd all still be playing with catapults. Won't you agree?
mo.
Derrick38,
Delrin does sound good! There goes my weekend again! 🙂
Mo.
Mr.B,
You know what I like best about this blog? The attitude of the people who contribute!
I'm glad my comment had the intended effect 🙂 I strongly believe that laughter is the best teacher 😉
Did you manage to find a filter? I'm looking for alternatives as well. Will let you know if I find something.
Mo.
Mr. B,
You're gonna love this!
I just realised that the easiest IR filter we can get is nothing but unexposed, developed camera roll film!! The poor man's way to look at an eclipse as well!! Same priciple, save our eyes from harmful IR!
I'm sure you have some lying around the house somewhere. The aperture of the laser is small enough that any bit of unexposed film is good. Grab an old negative and use the edges around the sprocket holes. Or even the end of the roll would do just fine. Just make sure that its unexposed and developed.
You can even stack two just to be sure.
And use sticky tape. Glue may run and spoil the film or in worst cases the lens.
DIY Rules!
Mo.
I have been using the Beeman Pell Seat tool [PA price: $14.95]ever since I got my second break-barrel gun. I don't have a chronometer, so never did any testing for improved velocities. However, before the tool arrived I was using the nose of a bolt that I had saved from modifying a Crosman 1377 pistol.
I noticed that all the bolt-equipped pellet guns and rifles had a nose, and I assumed it was to properly position the pellet in the bore. Some third-party vendors advertized bolts with even longer noses designed to seat the pellets even further than OEM bolts.
I reasoned that break-barrels have a bore-alinged port that doesn't allow a pellet-seater to be built into the gun. It never occured to me that one could be mounted externally, such as the one on the Hy Score.
–Witt
TO TOM
A little off the subject….I have been seeing your comments regarding the Shot Show and today via EMail I got Frank Brownells Web Comments. He mentioned a great disorganization and some arrestsL See this link. http://archives.subscribermail.com/msg/74d9e970326e48a993eb881c758f5880.htm
Also in your testing of the various pellets and air guns, do you always use pellets which have been coated with silicon oil to some degree? Seems I recall your mentioning doing that some time ago.
Keep em coming….
Joe 3005-springfield@msn.com
http://archives.subscribermail.com/msg/74d9e970326e48a993eb881c758f5880.htm TRY THIS LINK FOR FRANK BROWNELLS NEWSLETTER.
Joe 3006,
The arrest was made on day one of the show and didn't receive much attention from attendees, except those who were arrested, of course. It was a case the FBI has been tracking for several years.
I seldom oil my pellets unless there is a reason to do so. They are made from lead that is pure enough to provide its own inherent lubrication, so oiling is unnecessary.
B.B.
BB
Is firing them from a PCP a reason to do so?
I thought I was supposed to lube the pellets for my Discovery (CPHs mostly, but also JSBs.)
BTW I'll bet to those arrested, it received their undivided attention!
Slinging Lead,
Yes, if you know that your pellets are leading the bore then oiling them is the solution.
B.B.
I somehow forgot the Marauder.
Disco .177
Marauder .22
I have been using your recipe for Whiscombe Honey.
BB,can you tell me the correct model 25 Daisy for the model 300 scope?I am curious about the screw hole directly under the elevation adjustment cog…was there a special{unique}model 25 that was meant to recieve that screw or bolt?
Frank,
The 1936 model is correct for the 300 scope. There are two 300 scope mounts and one goes back down the pistol grip to where the 1936 receiver tang is attached.
The other mount is for the Red Ryder.
B.B.
Thank you o wise one!!!It really had me perplexed.This one will be with me 'till I die!When I come up with the right tool,I will remove the lens to clean it carefully,and treat the inside of the tube with ballistol and t-shirt cotton.I hope I am not being like the guy that bought that Colt,it certainly isn't my intention…You could get it back,but nobody else!!!!!!!!
Frank & Wayne,
(Sounds like a news commentary team!)
Happy Birthday coming up. Mine is the 11th.
DSW
DSW,Happy Birthday to you first!I hope you get something airgun related…getting older,feeling younger:]My birthday has already surpassed all expectation.May you have similar results!!
DSW,
Happy birthday to you. I second Frank B's gift idea.
Mr B.
Mo,
Thanks for the info on using the unexposed, but developed film for the IF filter. The ones I was looking at were twenty plus dollars which included shipping.
Mr B.
Can anyone help Douglas with the differences (if any) between a IZH 46M pistol and a MP46M pistol? He left this question on the old IZH 46 blog posting. I asked him to come to this post for answers.
"I thought I was purchasing an IZH-46M air pistol but I received an MP-46M air pistol instead. They look the same but does anyone know the difference between the two guns?"
Never mind, Douglas posted the question on the Hy-Score 801 – Part 1 post, and FRED is helping him there.
Thought this was interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJGKkL7vxy4
kevin
Thanks to slinginlead for all his advice. Now I appeal to all the airgun pros out there: I'm brand new to airgunning but thoroughly hooked, and I know nothing beyond (so far) 28 hours worth of reading through just a fraction of all the blog entries and videos. But I do know I want a powerful springer. So here goes: I'm all ferfuddled in making my impending choice between a Diana 54 in 22 cal, or the Diana 460, also in 22 cal. I'm clear that all trigger problems have been solved by now and also all scope mount and droop problems, by using BB's UTG mount. But I still read and worry about slight looseness issues in the anti-recoil mechanism of the 54, and also wonder if feeling no recoil at all doesn't actually detract from the joy/feel of shooting the thing? And just about Everybody complained about the horrible huge plastic front sight on the 460. But in Diana's operating manual for the 460, it says, on page 6, "Sight adjustment: DIANA air rifle model 460 MAGNUM could be equipped with
standard sight or TRUGLO fiber optic sight." But I see no mention of this choice on PA's website. Does this mean RWS does NOT offer the TRUGLO option in the USA? Now then, to everybody out there, leaving aside any personal preference of side lever versus under lever, which is the better gun, Diana 54 or 460? Thanks!
BG_Farmer,
I've got clear skies tomorrow, so I will be out at the range. The next time I show up here I will have my groups. Just to review, we're testing your blackpowder rifle against my B30 and M1 Garand offhand 25 yards, average of three 5 shot groups. I'd say we've got everything covered here–the air rifle, blackpowder and high-powered. I'll also be testing my McDonald's shooting method of getting in all my predefined steps. I'll be focused totally and process, not result. So, I don't really care about the group sizes.
Really I don't.
Couldn't care less….
Matt61
Alan,
you need to decide what you would like to do with your first air rifle? Targets?
Plinking? Hunting? Competition? A combination?
The RWS54 is near the top of the heap when it comes to break barrel air rifles. It's
powerful, extremely accurate and has a built in anti-recoil system, an excellent choice.
You can use it for all of the above. The RWS 450 is an extremely powerful air rifle with a
very significant recoil. It will be fine for hunting and plinking. I myself have the 350
Magnum and find it one of the more difficult rifles I own to shoot with accuracy, compared to my
RWS 46 or my Crosman Discovery pre-charged pneumatic.
My advice, from everything here
on the blog I've read, is go with the 54 and scope it. Pyramyd Air's website will recommend
accessories such as scopes and droop compensating mounts for all their products. You won't be
disappointed following their advice but the blog can also help you there.
Welcome to air gunning,
a most addictive and delightful hobby. We all hope you continue to review the blog and comments here.
By the way, are you familiar with the "artillery hold" for spring piston air rifles?
Go here:
/article/The_artillery_hold_June_2009/63
Fred PRoNJ
Everyone Alert!
We have an interesting and very touching message on an old report of the TS-45 sidelever air rifle. It appears to be written through an online translator, which makes it have broken thoughts and sentences, but the man's message comes through. He fondly remembers the plant where is father made the TS-45.
Here is the message:
————————-
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "TS-45 – An early Chinese sidelever":
I am a Chinese, this year, 36 years old. I am very excited to see this page, because this is my father's generation that they manufacture and production. My home in China's Xinjiang, the plant's name is called "Red Flag of Xinjiang Machinery Factory," the Chinese state-owned No. 979 Factory (the original is to create 56 military-style semi-automatic rifle factory), which accompanied the gun I had a number of memorable childhood ah, Oh, infinitely good memories ah. . . . . . I grew up playing with the gun is brought up. Until the early 90s, China's ban on personal gun ownership until all of the air guns at home have been handed over, it never touched them had. However, in my mind, this gun is my eternal love and dreams.
I remember in my middle school, I heard that the factory production of air guns are exported to the United States, and everyone is very happy about it. Because it can be recognized by foreign customers, this is our glory. I know that this gun factory our prices are 28 dollars one, until the last because of China's domestic prices of steel and other raw materials only after the cessation of exports (which is the early 80s things).
Do you know why this gun is called the TS model do? This is the abbreviated spelling words, because our factory in China's Xinjiang Tianshan Mountains are the highest mountain here, so models with names such as TS, 45 because it is a 0.45mm caliber of the gun.
Later, the U.S. buyers because of the cost of procurement is no longer only an air gun, the Chinese government control over private citizens can not have air guns, so we plant began to shift production to manufacture petroleum machinery and agricultural machinery for a living. Therefore, the plant life very difficult.
Until 1995, the factory closed down closed down. Was sold to private individuals, of 500 million yuan, and this is one of several thousand workers, makers ah! Thought here is really very, very sad. My father, they have dedicated their youth to the old man of this plant. There are many workers, a third generation to work in the factory, from the grandfather, father to son. On the red flag factory, me and my generation are all very deep feelings. Until now, and my father (he has 65 years of age) against the Red Flag plant closure thing, he always face the tears. That is very, very deep feelings ah. When he was young when (18 years), to this plant, then, this plant is also full of sand, nothing, they build their own plant, installation of machines and equipment. Entirely with their own hands and build up the factory. Now it went out of business.
Although no longer have this gun, but the longer see its photos. Already very satisfied. I told my father, let him look at this web page, he is very excited, happy and proud.
Once again thanks, really, very, very grateful. If you have more photos on this gun's enough.
My E-MAIL is davidlixpeng@263.net, welcome to e-mail discussion on this gun. He was never in my life is difficult to forget the good memories.
——————————
This man is interested in receiving photos of the TS-45. I will send him some, and I invite everyone to do the same. He cannot own the gun, so photos are all the connection he has to the gun his father helped build.
B.B.
Kevin,
I watched the review of the Webley Paradigm. It's a modern version of the Parker-Hale Dragon, with many of the kinks worked out.
Thanks for the link.
B.B.
Alan,
My vote would also be for the RWS Diana 54. I've shot both the 460 Magnum and the 54 and I can tell you the 54 is the nicer rifle. It is way more accurate and feels so much better when shooting.
The 460 Magnum is supposed to be a powerhouse, but the 54 is very close, and much more accurate because of the way the anti-recoil mechanism works. You have to concentrate on a good hold with the 460, but the 54 is far more forgiving. Also the sharp checkering on the 54 feels so nice!
There aren't many airguns that are nicer than a 54 in .22 caliber. That's just my opinion.
B.B.
Hi iam a big fan from youre blog. I would like to comment on youre remarks about .25 pellets. I dont know if they are for sale in the USA (i live in the Netherlands) But the H&N Field Target Trophy 20.6 grain and the JSB exact King 25.4 grains are realy great .25 pellets. I should them both from my (original) Webley Patriot with a gasstrut and from my BSA Lonestar. Both are imho better then de Diana Magnum was.
Many regards, Peter
Peter,
Thank you for that suggestion. I will look into getting these pellets for Pyramyd AIR.
B.B.
Fred: Thanks for the excellent point to Mr. Gaylord's video in the artillery hold. That was going to be my very next research topic! This blog is truly 'Airgun University'.
BB: At the end of your video on how to mount a scope you threatened that the next episode would be how to sight it in. I couldn't find that! And I'd sure like to see that, along with your recommendation on what scope to put on the Diana 54 (yup, I've decided!) on your UTG mount.
Any word on the Truglo option for the 460 front sight? Thanks again for all the great advice.
Sorry, "video ON the artillery hold…"
Alan,
You can't find that video because I haven't done it yet. Illness and bad weather combined to prevent me from filming the second part. I'm still waiting on some good weather to get it in the can.
Scope the 54 with a Leapers (UTG or Centerpoint are the same) scope.
No word on the fiberoptic front sight. Have you called Pyramyd Air?
B.B.
Alan,
I see you made your choice. Get a good set of steel rings to mount your scope on the UTG Leapers base. I used a set of warne rings.
My Diana 54 was in .22 caliber and liked the jsb exacts in the blue tin best.
What will you primarily use your Diana 54 to do? Hunting? Plinking? Off hand? Bench rest?
kevin
BB,
No, haven't yet. Will on Monday. Hope you feel better soon. I'm in South Florida- weather's fine down here. (Bitterly cold, though- the ladies all break out the fur coats as soon as it drops to 75!) We'll see how the 54 performs on the plague of runaway Burmese pythons in the Everglades, but only after I've learned to hit a barn door at 10 paces.
Kevin,
Thanks for the advice on the rings. Seriously, I only intend backyard target practice and tin can plinking for now.
BB, changing topics, I've preordered a Marlin Cowboy BB gun for my boy who's turning 8 in May. It'll be his first BB gun. I've also preordered the Air Venturi Bronco. I figure if he shows me he's responsible and mature enough with his bb gun then he might get the Bronco for Christmas or next birthday so we can both go out together. Do you have any tips and tricks on how to get a kid to take gun safety seriously? I'm planning on making him sign a formal contract with me that he will never aim at anybody and will always wear his safety glasses, but… I'm very concerned because he's picked up some real bad habits with these darn NERF Blasters that he loves. He's learned that he can shoot foam darts at his sisters with relative impunity. How best to unlearn bad habits? Thanks guys.
Alan
Good to see you on the blog. From the responses you have gotten so far, I'm sure you see what I meant before.
Only 28 hours? Oh well, if you redouble your efforts, one fine day you might have scratched the surface.
You brought up a shrewd observation when you wrote, "and also [I] wonder if feeling no recoil at all doesn't actually detract from the joy/feel of shooting the thing?" This is often a bone of contention between the springer vs PCP debate.
I enjoy the gentle kick from my TX200 or a Diana 48/52. I liken it to a good friend playfully punching me in the shoulder. It is a gentle reminder that this is no toy (that and the 11 pound weight.) Some people prefer PCPs so they can concentrate less on hold and more on wind/yardage/elevation/scratching your itchy beard.
Which springer you are firing will dictate how much technique or strict adherance to all the artillery hold principals is necessary. A 460, being a magnum, is likely to require gobs of technique. The 54, you could probably rest the forearm directly on a sandbag and get great results– I can with a 52, and I'm a hack shooter who is blind and shakes like a nervous chihuahua in a Ford Model T on a cold day.
Also, how big a boy are ya? Your dimensions should be kept in mind when considering a rifle of certain dimensions.
PS: I watch the artillery hold video over and over just to see the expression on Tom's face after he introduces the Beeman C1 carbine and looks down on it. It's pure love! HA!
Alan,
For teaching people to shoot read this (both parts):
/blog/2006/7/teach-a-person-to-shoot-part-2/
This article isn't as tutorial, but it is my favorite report on tyeaching someone to shoot, and it does address safety.
/blog/2008/04/converting-an-anti-gunner-and-teaching-a-person-to-shoot-10-meter-pistol/
B.B.
Doug,
These are the same guns. Both were mfrd by IZH-Baikal in Russia. The one with IZH on it was imported by EAA Corp. The one with MP on it was imported by Pyramyd AIR, which is the current importer. MP is actually correct according to the IZH-Baikal's website. It appears that when EAA brought in the guns, they didn't want MP on them.
Edith
Alan,
Welcome to our wonderful sometimes warped but always fasinating air gun community.
You asked a very critical question about your son and gun safety. I took my son, daughter, niece and nephew ages 7-10, a head of cabbage, a .357 mag and a 22-250 out in the back 40 and gave them a lesson in what a gun can do.
I had the 4 of them carry the head of cabbage, here after called the "head", pass it back and forth as we walked and talked about how close it was in size to their heads, etc.
When we found a safe spot to shoot, I put a .357 hollow point through the "head". We picked it up and I had each of them put their finger in the entrance hole and their fist in the exit hole.
We all talked about what that meant and what it would have done to a real head. Then I put the "head" up in a tree and proceeded to shoot it with a 52 grain BTHP at maybe 3500 fps, no chronographs back then.
The "head" turned into a green haze floating in the air. they only found one intact piece of the cabbage about the size of my hand. We then talked about what a gun can do. It was a lesson that they never forgot.
Twenty plus years later son, nephew and I were sitting at the range talking after an enjoyable day of shooting. Brain turned to Doug and said, "Remember when your dad took us out with that head of cabbage?" "Yes, it's something I'll never forget", was Doug's reply.
Alan, if you can do something like that, go for it cause it sure works. If not how about shooting an egg with a NERF gun and then your Diana 54. Maybe a piece of wood that your Diana 54 for sure will go through compaired to the NERF dart bouncing off. Let us know how it works out.
Mr B.
WV is scycoo–blogger has finally figured me out:)
Matt,
That's the spirit. My son and I watched the Howard Sprague Perfect Bowling Game Episode of Andy Griffith last night — seems appropriate somehow:). Good Luck. I'm expecting you to win. My posted shots are the first 15 out of the barrel after our challenge was established, so I'm planning to play fair, win or lose.
Volvo,
If you don't re-refinish the 92 stock yourself, send it to me and I'll do it. I've got Cherry, Gunstock (similar to the pre-64 Walnut, i.e. reddish, I think) and Ebony stains in oil and Walnut in water base currently, if any sound better than blond. Topcoats on hand are Antique Oil Finish (BLO + minute amount of varnish), Formby's Tung Oil Finish (BLO + more poly:)), and semi-gloss or satin poly. I'm thinking that a light cherry with the antique oil would be pretty nice:).
Ahh, Sunday morning. time to catch up a bit on the Blog…
Thanks for the B'day wishes, guys. And back to ya, as well.
Welcome to the blog D'lixpeng! Your factory made a nice looking airgun.
Alan, are you sure a shotgun wouldn't be a better choice for those Pythons? 🙂
Kevin, Volvo, you guys have got me thinking of refinishing a stockmyself. Going to reread past posted info and give it a go on an old Mossberg 410 I got. Wait, I know! Instead of taking a chance on ruining one of my guns, why don't I get another one for the project?!! Thanks for the great idea of buying another gun, you guys are great!
DSW
Alan,
I have no intention of talking you out of your Diana 54 choice but want to point out a couple things.
As you know the Diana 54 is a very powerful gun and as such is very heavy. Shooting offhand quickly became a chore for me. If you're serious about ulitimately hunting runaway Burmese pythons in the Everglades this gun even without a scope becomes a load to tote in the field. I also had problems with the 54's sledge system when shooting at sharp upward angles (squirrels). As a benchrested, hunting gun it's a good one. As a backyard plinker the sidelever became a tiring nuisance to me.
I plink in my backyard up to 100 feet. I like a lightweight, easy to cock gun for this and usually end up shooting my diana 27 or beeman R7. The time passes quickly when I shoot with these guns. Can't say the same thing about plinking with the diana 54.
kevin
Bg farmer,
I greatly appreciate your generous offer, however I sold it already. In hind sight I wish I would have accepted, as before I put it in the box for shipping I gave it one last quick shot off hand. I could not see the point of impact from 45 feet but when I walked by later that lone shot was dead center.
B.B. – We benefit from your seemingly endless knowledge of airguns. Another area which would be helpful is a series on improving ones shooting skills; rifle and pistol. Some time ago, you wrote a piece about pistol shooting basics, which was very helpful. Many of us have learned to shoot with practice and such, but could benefit from the Pros. How to begin, how to improve, getting a tighter grouping, compensating for range, holds, methods, stances, etc. Any possibility?
Kevin
What do you find to be a nuisance about cocking the Diana sidelevers?
I have found them fairly easy and ergonomical to cock. (Haven't held a 54) You do kind of need to use your stomach as a third point of contact, but who doesn't have enough of that?
Your advice is about as good as it gets and I don't doubt you for a second, but it sounds like he's got light powered plinkers covered with the Marlin and the Bronco…unless of course he wanted to upgrade the Bronco to the Beeman R7, you know "for his son" wink wink.
Please school me.
Alan
The Diana 48/52/54 are all big, heavy pigs which is what i was getting at when I asked how big you were. You will love any one of them you get. Scope it? Yes, but only after breaking it in with the fine open sights.
I "made up my mind for good" at least a dozen times, before changing my mind yet again.
Kevin,I think you especially will be impressed to hear that I have completed the big three FWB classics:a one owner FWB 150,scarce because clubs wore most of them out…so accurate for 10 meter they caused competition target size to be reduced by half! a FWB 124 from you that is absolute perfection….and now,a FWB 300s universal type II,imported from Germany,2 different cheekpieces,muzzle brake,muzzle weight,match diopter sights,99% bluing and still chronys in the 630 fps range!I got the 300 from Jim Edmondson,a shooting coach and first rate gentleman!I am a very happy man.Thank you for your contribution and encouragement!!!
Slinging Lead,
Re: tiring nuisance about cocking the Diana 54
The tiring part is juggling a 10-12 pound gun all afternoon vs. a 6-7 pound gun. The "nuisance" is the sidelever. The cocking effort, once you learn to go past 90 degrees in one motion, isn't bad when compared to most magnum springers. The real nuisance to me is trapping the sidelever with your shooting bench or leg, while using one hand to hold the gun and the other to load a pellet.
I don't trust any open breech that I stick my fingers into to mechanics. I hold the sidelever while loading a pellet into sidecockers and hold the barrel while loading a pellet in a breakbarrel. On my breakbarrel springers I've gotten into the habit of just barely breaking the barrel, loading a pellet, then completing the cocking cycle. Eliminates the step of holding onto an open barrel while loading a pellet.
kevin
I have a general tip for anyone evaluating the condition of bluing on a used gun or airgun…bring a bright white LED flashlight along!the smallest specs of rust,ones you cannot see without the light,show up like fake blonds under black lights!Maybe everyone else knows this,maybe not.It sure surprised me how well it worked…
Frank B,
A Trifecta of airguns. Very impressive. Quite a collection of FWB's. I like your choices.
Never owned a FWB 300 but did get to shoot one last summer at the airgun shoot I hosted at my home. FourRings (Mike) and Jamie probably brought 50 guns between them. Lot of 10 meter guns. I shot a FWB 300s, a FWB running target, a Diana 75, a HW 55T and although not a 10 meter gun a FWB 124 in custom macarri tyro stock.
Talk about airgun overload. I must have shot 30 guns for the first time that day. Couldn't sleep for the next week.
Jim E is a class act and very knowledgeable about vintage 10 meter guns. Tom Strayhorn is also a great resource. Fine gentlemen.
These two people are great examples of the high quality individuals that this hobby allows one to get to know. One of the dimensions of airgunning I really enjoy.
kevin
Edith,
thanks for jumping in on the IZH conundrum of MP vs no MP. I never considered going to Baikal's website, instead researching on the Yellow and PA's sites.
Couldn't sleep at 3 this morning so I was trolling for things to do. And now, I have to take a nap.
Fred PRoNJ
Volvo,
That's too bad — would have been a pleasure; we could maybe even have talked Derrick into shadow lining a Bavarian style cheekpiece:). I should have offered earlier, but with the recent work on my long rifle, the problems with my hands have been a lot worse; it took a day or two away from the rasp and gouges to make me forget:).
Hi, all, I'm not going to tell you where I am or what I've been doing today because it will sound like bragging. But it sure makes writing comments seem like work and I hope Hugo Chavez doesn't decide to invade. Oooooo! look at the pretty fishies!
Alan of the 54,
I'd like to address one of your questions that no one has yet and that is you wondered if feeling no recoil at all doesn't actually detract from the joy/feel of shooting. I vote No! Many people in the firearm sports wish for a gun with no recoil and spend a lot of money to diminish recoil so that right there must tell you there must be something bad about it.
Personally, I find that my attention is focused on where the pellet goes and when it doesn't go where I expect it to that is what detracts from my joy. Trying my best to make it go where I want it to is where the joy comes in. So with that in mind, with all the variables for choosing one rifle over another, additional recoil isn't one of the good ones. Go with the gun with the least recoil. I think you'll like it better.
Ooooo! Moray Eel!!!
-Chuck
Oops! OK, now I see that slinging lead did address that topic. Sorry SL, didn't mean to slight you.
Well, off gassed enough Nitrogen let's go find that Barracuda. OK, OK, I won't rub it in any more.
-Chuck
CJr,I hope you get sand in your…..
Suitcase!
Bristolview,
Sure. I can do part of it, but I'm nobody's idea of a great shot, so maybe some other blog readers would care to participate in advanced shooting techniques.
B.B.
I saw a blue man who would beg to differ with you BB!
Chuck
Yes, we get it, you went scuba diving and I for one am insanely jealous since that is obviously what you were after.
i'm not saying the more recoil the better. I'm just saying I like a little tiny kick, especially when paired with a smooth cycling rifle like a TX200 or a good Diana. Then again I am engaged to a latina woman, so I like a bit of a challenge. PCPs are OK if you are one of THOSE people. I'm still on speaking terms with my new M-Rod.
Your post seems kind of random, I think you came up too fast;^)
Good to have you back buddy.
CJr,
There must be away to use the exaust air from your venture, considering the pressure at the depth you were at to have had to out gas nitrogen, to at least charge Ms M if she's tuned for CO2. But for the life of me I cann't figure it out right now.
Oops gotta run. They're bringing my meds.
Mr B.
Slingin lead,
You're right, the agonizing choice has me waffling for the 54th time on whether to get the 54 or not… As to my size, well, I'm 300+. Okay, make that ++. So lugging 10-12 pounds doesn't sound excessive. And oh yeah, PLENTY of extra cushioning around the midriff for that needed third support!
Your advice about not scoping it til it's broken in is interesting- hadn't thought of that. That's great though, since I like shooting by the sights. That's why I eliminated all sightless guns from contention out of hand. Always felt that not having them was giving up versatility for no good reason.
Kevin,
That was a very interesting observation about the sledge system sliding back when shooting the 54 up into a tree. If the sledge slides down too easily that would sure defeat the recoil absorbing function, wouldn't it! Would you then suggest slightly adjusting the screw that tightens it? I'm guessing this would be screw #1 in the adjustment page of PA's website for the instruction manual (the one they tell you not to touch!)
http [colon, forward slash, forward slash] www [dot] pyramydair [dot] com [slash] site [slash] manuals [slash] RWS54 [slash] adjustments [slash] shtml
However, Tom doesn't hesitate to suggest this can be done (post of 30 December 2006, 18:04).
Thanks again all for your encouragement.
Alan,
The sledge system is fighting gravity when shooting at sharp upwards angles. No screw adjustment will overcome this law of physics.
This is a good read about the 54 tear down, trigger tune and various hidden and screw adjustments:
http://www.eddiecolwell.tzo.com/RWS-54.htm
kevin
Hello Blog!
I was wondering if anybody could point me to some good lower-priced pest hunting pellets for use in the daisy 22sg?
Would the Gamo Hunters be good for this gun?
Thanks
22SG,Gamo hunters might be a good starting point.At 2 cents a pellet,they certainly are affordable to try.At 15.3 grains,you won't know till you try them if they are accurate enough to hunt though.The 22sg should be pointed down when loading a pellet,there is a ridge the pellet nose must clear before closing the bolt,or a soft pellet can get mangled or refuse to load…so stick with a round nosed pellet.Don't shoot at any range you can't confidently hit a quarter,and be safe!another pellet to try would be Crosman premier,at 14.3 grains it will shoot flatter.
Thanks for the advice!
Tom,
In an emergancy situation of a coyote attacking a backyard pet what pellet would work best in a .22 Marauder inside of 25 yards? Thank you.
Coyote,
I would use a .22 long rifle hollowpoint or a shotgun shell. I understand the need for quiet, but the Marauder really isn't up to this task. If you think a .22 is noisy, just wait until you have a squealing, dying coyote that has to be shot repeated times to finish the job. It definitely draws attention.
However, that said, if that's all you have, an H&N Baracuda pellet would work.
B.B.
B.B.,
How much advantage is there in using the more expensive Hill pump over the Benjamin (ease of operation, durability, etc.)for my Marauder? Thanks!
There is no advantage to the Hill pump over the Benjamin pump. The Benjamin pump is rated to higher pressure. As long as you bleed the pump correctly and don't wipe off the lubricant, both pumps should last about the same amount of time.
I don't really have a lot of experience with either of these, except to know that Crosman stands behind the Benjamin pump.
B.B.
This Hy Score model 801 will definitely earned a place in my heart as metric wrenches do, it is rare and in fact would make a good collection piece. “It seems that a low-powered spring rifle may do better when the pellets are seated deeper into the bore.” I think that it really depends on the pellets that you are using where velocity is concerned. If the pellets are heavier, the tendency is that the shoot will decrease its speed. If you want to have, a fast output of the pellet and hit the target. I think, though that your test and observations are good and would be very useful to hobbyist like us.
wrench holder,
Great to have you on the blog. You posted on an article that is almost a year old. Not many people read posts that old. Join us at this URL and you will reach more readers:
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