BKL rings – Part 2

by B.B. Pelletier

Part 1

Yes, that really is a link to Part 1 of this report. But I combined it with Part 3 of the report on the Hammerli Razor, so it may confuse you. I bet most of you forgot that I was doing this test, so here’s the background.

Background
BKL mounts are of interest to airgunners, especially those who shoot springers, because they claim to hold fast to 11 mm dovetail grooves with clamping pressure, alone. Back in the days when I wrote The Airgun Letter, I had occasion to test that claim and found that it came up short. The rings did move from the recoil of a lowly CZ 631 spring rifle.

The BKL company soldiered on until 2007, when they quietly left the marketplace. They were quite popular with airgunners. In late 2008, AutoNumatic, the parent company of AirForce Airguns, bought the BKL company, including all its rights and work in-process. In early 2009, they brought the first new BKL rings to market and throughout the year quietly built up inventory as the word spread that they were back.

The test
I started my test of the very popular 260 MB model in September 2009. I selected the Hammerli Razor as a testbed simply because I happened to be testing it at the time, though the Razor has a pretty snappy recoil. The gun was shot over 100 times for accuracy then about an additional 400 shots after that. I say about because to tell the truth I lost count somewhere during the test. However, a lot of shots went through the rifle with the BKL one-piece model 260 MB rings mounted. And the scope it was holding was a Bushnell Trophy 6-18x, which is not a light scope. If there was going to be movement, this combination should have produced it.


BKL 260 has six clamping screws, shown here. The three holes accept a clamping screw that can spread the clamp jaws to go on a rifle with a larger-width dovetail.

Here are photos of the four witness tapes at the start of the test and at the finish. One is at each corner of the base of the mount.


Tape at the left rear of base when first installed.


At the end of the test, tape at the left rear of base shows no movement.


Tape at the left front of base when first installed.


At the end of the test, tape at the left front of base shows no movement.


Tape at the right front of base when first installed.


At the end of the test, tape at the right front of base shows no movement.


Tape at the right rear of base when first installed. If the mount moves, it will either curl the tape or move away from it. Either way it will be visible.


At the end of the test, tape at the right rear of base shows no movement.

So, there you go. No detectable movement of this BKL mount holding a heavy scope for about 500 shots on a briskly recoiling spring rifle.

The next test
But you know what? That’s not enough. We all know there are spring rifles that have legendary recoil. Guns like the Webley Patriot that was also sold by the old Beeman company as the Kodiak. That rifle has been known to break scopes with its vicious recoil. We won’t be satisfied until the mount proves its strength on a brute like that!

I don’t own a Webley Patriot or a Beeman Kodiak; but, fortunately, John McCaslin, the owner of AirForce Airguns does, and I’m using it for this test. If the BKL 260 MB can ride out another 500 shots, this time on a Webley Patriot, then there won’t be much anyone can say, except that it works as advertised.

Why a scope mount without a scope stop?
It’s time to answer the big question. Why would anyone need a scope mount that doesn’t have a scope stop built in? Well, for many airguns, there’s no need whatsoever. Pneumatics and CO2 guns don’t have enough recoil to put a strain on a scope ring set no matter how large the scope in them might be. And even some spring guns such as the new Bronco have such low recoil that any good scope ring set will hold without a positive scope stop.

But as spring guns start to develop power, their recoil becomes both quicker and more pronounced. Remember, it was a Slavia 631 that defeated the first BKL mount I tested. Riding out the recoil of a Webley Patriot would be the ultimate challenge for a mount that holds by clamping pressure, alone.

I’ll switch the scope to the Patriot and give you a full report.

139 Responses to “BKL rings – Part 2”

  • Mr B. Says:

    Morning B.B.,

    Yes I'd forgotten about the BLK ring test, but sure remember the pictures with the tape.

    We're waiting fot the answer to the big question though–will they hold on a Webley Patriot??? Thanks to you, John McCaslin, we'll get the answer. By the way a Talon SS is my go to gun–maybe with your new machinery you will give us the option of a regulated air supply: hope, and thanks. Congradulations on the Edge!

    Mr B.

    WV is "werstie" Blogger's comment on the pending snow storm, maybe? (I'm in MD)

  • CJr Says:

    My Ruger AirHawk has very noticeable recoil. It has no stop pin hole and I had trouble with scope creep until I installed the Gamo Scope Stop, Rubber Bumper for $9.95 under the scope and just behind the front ring. Just like BB did in his Part 3 report on the AirHawk. So far it is working but I don't have even 100 shots through it, yet. It ain't pretty but it's functional.

    For aesthetic reasons the BKL might be the better choice, if it works, but for price the bumper scope stop is a good quick fix.
    -Chuck

  • Volvo Says:

    500 shots from a Kodiak Patriot? Normally I would like to participate in a test to get to use the items but I would pass here. My arm is tired just thinking about it. If I recall, the Patriot took a special mount with cross bar pins but I don’t remember if it was wider than usual?

    In the mount category I tried one of the droop compensating ones for the RWS rifles and it works like a dream. If anyone needs one make sure you take the added height of the base in account and go with the lowest rings possible. Rock solid and inexpensive.

  • ajvenom Says:

    I like your thinking Chuck. I use an accushot 1 piece mount with stop pin on mine. A little heavier than two piece mounts, but rock solid and works well for break barrels.

  • Wayne Says:

    B.B. said on yesterday blog, after my review posted last night..

    Wayne,

    Come on. Tell us how you REALLY feel about the Bronco!

    I'm glad you found it to shoot like I did. That means I'm not crazy. The rifle is pure joy to shoot. And it's accurate.

    If any group can put one through its paces it's yours, so I'm hoping all the guys at your club take it for an extended test drive.

    B.B.

    While I was doing the dishes, Randy slipped in and stole my spot testing the Bronco.. and wouldn't give it back until the Portland Trail Blazer/Spur basketball game came on.. (sorry about that one Texas.. we stole it from you in the last mins!!).. anyway.. He loves it too.

    Late last night I ordered 3 more from PA…

    This little springer is like shooting a PCP on low power.. super quiet, and NO recoil one can really notice.. even the cocking becomes something you forget you did.. you get going and can't stop shootin her..

    Groups tightened up when I added a little coconut oil to the Falcon 7.33gr. Some sets of 5 shots made one hole groups 3/8" outside to outside at 19 yards!!

    But, I tried the pellet seating trick with her and dry pellets dropped about 1/2" to 1" at the 19 yards… not consistent at all.. but when I tried seating with the coconut oil they tightened up at 1/4" low.. go figure..

    Maybe the Bronco has a tighter fit at the breech than 1/8" deep in the barrel and the oil helps to seal that deeper fit… who knows..

    Wacky Wayne, Match Director, Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • Mr B. Says:

    Wayne,

    "This little springer is like shooting a PCP on low power" is the penultimate complement coming from you, the king of PCP's.

    We never thought we'd see the words springer shoots like a PCP coming from you.

    Oh I know, it's part of The Plan, to aquire another oops cann't spill the beans.:) Phew that coulda tipped Edith.

    Mr B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Kevin,

    Thanks. I read all the comments there.

    I'm currently working on a book that I will publish through Amazon. It will be printed on demand, which is both cheaper for me and brings immediate profits instead of waiting for seven years as I had to do with the R1 book.

    I won't say more about the new book now, but I hope to publish it this year sometime. After that I may go back and update the R1 book.

    B.B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    B.B.

    I should report that I am so pleased with my Accushot medium rings which were my first choice that I have never had a need for another. They are used for both my IZH 61 and B30. The mount for the IZH 61 moved maybe one millimeter in 60,000 shots. The B30 mounts (900fps) have never moved at all. Somehow or other the scope stop pin went missing but a bolt at the very back end of the dovetail works well as a stop. For my duel with BG_Farmer, I dismounted the scope and to go from 5 to 25 yards I changed the sights 96 clicks down and 24 left (with each click 1/4 minute). When I reversed the process at home base, the rifle was exactly on target again with no need to adjust even a single click.

    By best acquisition, though, from a value standpoint is my $7 mounts from B-square for my Savage 10FP. If that company is going down the tubes, you wouldn't know it from this mount. It maintains zero after dismounting and has formed my opinion that this is a half-minute rifle for someone who knows what he is doing. Thanks to B.B. for steering me away from the exorbitant $275 mounts that I saw advertised!

    Wayne, it appears that the Bronco has converted you back to springers which says a lot. I have to differ with you on the relative accuracy of high and low powered springers. My B30 is slightly but distinctly more accurate than my IZH 61 partly because of its weight but also, I think, because the pellet velocity is twice as fast; that reduces the stress on the follow-through.

    Joe Springfield, thanks for the tip about the James River Armory. Very impressive and genuine looking. Blackpowder afficionados, this place started by reconstructing Civil War arms, so might be interesting. My eye was caught by a fully restored Springfield for a little over $700. Wow. Joe and all, if you're interested in the other end of the spectrum, Clint Fowler has M1As for sale that are half minute rifles. He's asking over $4000 but that is comparable to the Tubb 2000.

    BG_Farmer, I was thinking that I did use a scope for the B30–4X32–and that indeed may have been a factor… I can shoot iron sights if you wish although the B30 is not at its best here. The advertised adjustable front sight shakes itself loose even with 5 minute epoxy, and I need to adjust the rear sight with a Phillips screwdriver since the adjustment dial fell off…

    No need to smart from defeat but look to the future. Nancy Tompkins makes a big deal of this in her book. I myself am looking to improve my technique with the "Centurion Effect." Centurions in the Roman Empire, though of fairly low rank corresponding to something like our company commanders today, were valued very highly in the Roman army to the extent of being shipped all over the empire where needed. The information is that they were not necessarily big studs, but that they were selected for their ability to remain cool under stress and keep thinking rationally. This point is buttressed by the outlaw and gunslinger John Wesley Hardin who apparently practiced like a maniac (not that it saved him in the end) and said that the winner of a quick draw gunfight was the one who took that extra split second to push the pistol towards the target after the draw rather than pulling the trigger as fast as possible. Composure is the key. So, for my McDonald's method of shooting, I'm now making sure to pause the tiniest bit for each step instead of just running through them. So that will be my experiment at our next outing. :-)

    Matt61

  • kevin Says:

    B.B.,

    I'm convinced it's a good business decision. The thread does indicate a "tip of the iceberg" demand that remains for The Beeman R1 book.

    My primary reason for linking you to the thread was the hint at copyright infringement. It's theft and one of my pet peeves.

    Have a great weekend.

    kevin

  • Edith Gaylord Says:

    Kevin,

    How is loaning a printed publication a copyright infringement & theft? Libraries do it all the time. We swap books with relatives on a regular basis.

    Edith

  • kevin Says:

    Mrs Gaylord,

    Of course not.

    It's the individual that offered to copy all the pages while the book was apart being rebound and making it digitally available that I was referring to.

    kevin

  • Mr B. Says:

    Edith,

    The possible copyright infringment really caught my attention. I thought that making a CD of the book would be a violation.

    If you have the time would you please explain?

    Thanks,

    Mr B.

  • Anonymous Says:

    Edith,

    I agree with your interpretation about the "book lending".

    Also, the entire set of comments on the Yellow Forum about the R1 book, seemed very open about Tom's authorship and intellectual property.

    I think those guys over there were actually paying homage to Tom's work.

    Brian in Idaho

  • Edith Gaylord Says:

    Kevin,

    I thought I read all the comments, but I must have missed that one. Hmmm…let me see if I can find it.

    Thanks,
    Edith

  • JTinAL Says:

    Hi all
    I finally got around to the penetration
    test with the Hammerli 490.
    This was totally unscientific,since I just
    stood a phone book against the wall and
    started shooting into it.I used the Daisy
    Precision Max pellets since that's what
    this rifle seems to like.That works out great for me since they are about as cheap
    as you can get and are available locally.
    What I found kinda surprised me,not because of the depth of the pellets but
    because of the damage to both pellets
    and phone book.
    So I started by shooting 2 pellets that
    I seated flush with the breach using just my fingers.They penetrated to 114
    and 116 pages and had slightly bent heads and deformed skirts.The surprise
    to me was that the damage went all the way to 140 pages.That's ~24 extra pages of impact damage and may not seem like a big
    deal until you consider that Vince
    chronied this gun in the low to mid
    500 fps range.
    Next I used a star driver socket bit to
    seat the next 2 pellets to a depth of
    about 1/2" into the bore.The deeper
    seating definitely made a difference.
    These 2 pellets went in to ~140 pages
    and the impact damage was 172 pages
    deep.That means the pellets went as deep
    as the total damage of the first 2 and
    had another 32 pages of impact damage.
    I don't have a clue what this relates
    to in fps difference since I don't own
    a chrony but it changed my mind about
    this gun as a close range pester.The
    heads of the pellets were rounded and
    the pellets were almost flat and made
    larger holes too since they had to spread out to flatten out that much.
    Inside 20 yards I believe this would pass
    thru most birds and do more than enough
    damage to rabbits and even squirrels.
    I plan to try this on my 1377 and 953
    when this rain clears up just to see
    if it will help low powered pneumatics
    as much as it did this springer.I may get some nutragena(sp)soap bars to set
    up at 10 and 20 yds so I can see the
    results better.Any excuse to shoot
    more:)
    Thanks BB this turned out to be an
    interesting project and even though
    only 2 pellets each isn't a good control
    group it was enough to convince me that
    it's worth the small amount of extra
    effort for better performance.As soon
    as we get some nicer weather I'm gonna take this phone book out and put it out of it's misery with a bunch more lead:)

    JTinAL

  • kevin Says:

    Since my post on the yellow it looks like he's rethought his idea.

    No need to go to war.

    kevin

  • Wayne Says:

    Mr. B.

    I've given up on Tom & Edith's USFT…

    I'll pretend like I'm not interested for awhile…

    ..and hope that something comes along that they want more.. then I might get an email some long off day in the future… I just hope to have first crack at her..

    So, no.. my review is not tainted by my desires to own their USFT.

    I do still have many old prewar Diana 23, 25 type springers.. all low power, under 600fps… But they don't give me the pleasure shooting them that the Bronco gives me.. and they will never shoot groups like the bronco!

    Tom has really done something here!

    At this low price point.. heck..at three times the price point.. it's head to head with the HW-30s.. and miles ahead of a HW-30…

    Really, the low price will keep some folks from trying it! People are fixed on "you get what you pay for".. with this little gem, you get more than you pay for!

    Wacky Wayne,

  • Edith Gaylord Says:

    Kevin,

    I found the post where someone said they should copy it, turn it into a PDF and send it out as a CD. I also noticed that almost every other person said this would be unfair & dishonest. The confusing part is that one person stated that we don't have copyright protection for digitized copies. Our book's copyright says this:

    "All rights reserved including the reproduction in whole or in part in any form."

    While the company that holds the copyright was our old business (GAPP, Inc.), it is now defunct. People might think the copyright is defunct. It is not. I owned that company, and all assets are mine. That includes every single word & photo that appeared in all our publications, including the R1 book.

    Thanks, again, for the link. I really appreciate it!

    Edith

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Kevin,

    I'm glad you looked closely at those comments on the Yellow. Back when we published "The Airgun Letter" there were several small groups of people, one with a subscription and a copier and several friends they mailed to. I know this because I got phone calls from the friends telling me what they were doing and could I please make the photos less dark so they would copy easier.

    Those readers loved the newsletter and they put us out of business at the same time.

    I probably will update the R1 book sometime soon. I estimate there are another 500 people or so who would like to own one. So I'll have to have it printed on demand, as the last printing was 2,500 copies to keep the cost down.

    The funny thing was, Pyramyd Air would buy the book from us 50 at a time, but Beeman always wanted just 20 and they wanted the deepest discount.

    Thanks for the heads up!

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Wayne,

    Believe it or not, we actually had that very discussion at Pyramyd Air. "What should the Bronco cost?"

    I wanted to price it at just under $150, so people would appreciate it, but also get a good bargain. But wiser heads prevailed and they got the price down below $130. At that price it is a real steal, but many people will look at the Hammerli 490 (a very nice rifle for the price, by the way) and wonder whether the Bronco is worth the extra money.

    You and I know that it is, and I hope others will try it and tell their friends. I would love to see this rifle get into many shooter's hands, because I really do think it is going to become a classic air rifle.

    B.B.

  • Wayne Says:

    Yep!..
    a Classic it is!!

    The box is not much of an eye catcher.. but I'm saving up three of them.. new in box forever!.. not even gonna break the tape on the box.. just putting them away..

    oooo… I'm gonna meet up with you again.. and arm wrestle you to put your "John Henry" on the box!

    Where does the line form?

    Wacky Wayne, Match Director, Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Wayne,

    About the box. I designed that, too I was going for 1950s retro, but at the last minute PA cheaped out and let Mendoza do the boxes. They are not what I had hoped for, but my American boxes might have added $1.50 to the cost, not to mention boxing labor time, and would have combined to drive the price up another $10.

    B.B.

  • kevin Says:

    Mrs Gaylord,

    You're welcome.

    I have my own copyright infringement story that I'll save for another time.

    I dislike theives in general but have a special disdain for copyright theives.

    kevin

  • kevin Says:

    B.B.,

    Depending upon price I think your estimate of 500 copies for a new R1 book is low.

    Considering that the few original books that do come up for sale and are snatched up within minutes for $50.00-$80.00 depending on condition I think the pent up demand has been proven and the timing is good too. Christmas 2010.

    I like your plan and wish you the best of luck negotiating with the tough businessperson that owns the rights to this fine book.

    kevin

  • Wayne Says:

    B.B.

    The box is fine.. just very fragile!.. cheap cardboard… but like you said.. sort of.. that's the place to skimp.. not the gun!!!

    The packing should be better inside the box though… my Bronco slid around inside the box, almost cutting through the solid foam packing and making a hole with the barrel in the end of the box.

    Also, I've noticed the pellets are not being shipped in the super way you blogged about anymore.. at least my last shipment was not and the tins got all dented.. banging on each other! PA is willing to let me reship them back.. but it's not worth it.. I'll be sorting and weighing anyway.

    I ordered two of the leapers 3-9×32 scopes with the bronco and so it was all packed in a larger box.. UPS banged it up bad, but all was fine inside.. but packing is hit and miss with orders..

    PA must be breaking in some new folks.. and the shipping manager was on coffee break:)

    hey.. I know what it's like to try and put out quality product every time.. it ain't easy!!!

    Wacky Wayne, MD. Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Wayne,

    Thanks for your comments. We are currently trying to turn the pellet packing situation around.

    B.B.

  • Volvo Says:

    Kevin,
    I sold my R-1 book on EBay a year+ ago for $111.00. Never made a copy, but having owned it for about 15 years, I fear I have an illegal copy stored in my brain. Probably my single best percentage profit I made in air gunning. The others guy’s book on crow hunting barely sold for what I paid for it and they were on the same order. Who knew?

    Unfortunately, I tossed all my Beeman and Air Rifle Headquarter catalogs from the 1970’s.

  • Bud Says:

    BB,
    Not that long ago an order came here and the pellets were packed just like in the movie that Paul Capelo made(the second part!:)) Guss the bad packing is realy new then. Hope it gets fixed quick.

    Bud

    WV-porks(blogger wants me to have a second lunch?)

  • Bud Says:

    B.B.,
    By the way, nice work on the gamo match. Nice to see that fixed on PA! Keep up the good work.

    Bud

  • AlanL Says:

    Mrs. B.B.,

    Interesting discussion on copyright, that you and Kevin had. This issue comes up an awful lot in the numismatic world, where information is real money. As an author of technical articles myself (nothing to do with airgunning, never fear!) the subject has been of some interest to me.

    The gist of the law as it stands in the U.S. today is as follows:

    As a general rule, for works created after January 1, 1978, copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years. For an anonymous work, a pseudonymous work, or a work made for hire, the copyright endures for a term of 95 years from the year of its first publication or a term of 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first. For works first published prior to 1978, the term will vary depending on several factors. (This is public info copied directly from the U.S. government's website on these matters, which some may find of interest:
    http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/

    B.B.: Sign me up for your new book. You have your first subscription order!

    -AlanL

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    AlanL,

    When the time comes to announce the new book you can bet that I will do it here first.

    B.B.

  • FRED Says:

    BB,

    two things. PA better fix that pellet shipping operation pronto – I just got an e-mail that my 4 tin order was being shipped today. I don't need any wheel weights just now, just pellets.

    Second, put me down as second in line for your book – with autograph if you please. Want a deposit?

    Fred PRoNJ

  • Mr B. Says:

    JTinAL,

    Who'd have thought–thanks for your tests.

    By the way don't sell 500fps too short. I've shot 3 crows with my 1377 pumped up but three times. Two were dead when they hit the ground and the third set its wings and glided a couple of blocks before it died.

    Mr B.

  • Wayne Says:

    Mr. B.

    BTW. thanks for your help in me getting the Nikko Diamond for USFT#6!
    ..
    and.. I tried brown nose, tip toes, elbows, and eyebros..

    so who knows, what goes..

    or which way the wind blows..
    or who will shoot their toes..
    or turn up their nose..
    at USFT that Edith and Tom knows..

    I'm just waiting.. for the que.. to due.. what I do.. so.. a dew..

    Wacky Wayne..

  • ajvenom Says:

    BB – I am a fan of Mendoza…and I used to look at the rm-200 as an "all day shooter"….after revisiting the rm-200 ad….I do have to say the bronco seems to have better finish all around, a more pleasing trigger guard and perhaps a lighter trigger. So for the affordable "all day shooter" the bronco seems to big a big winner in value for a springer. WTG!!!

    Wayne – Im going to put coconut oil on my list now!!!! Perhaps you can market your cocunut oil as a biodegradable pellet lube.

    PA should have a bronco bonus pack…….a pellet seating biro, a bottle of wacky wayne's bio pellet lube and a signature of Tom Gaylord on the box for the first 100 orders.

  • Wayne Says:

    OK.. SHUT MY MOUTH..

    my latest shipment of pellets just arrived from PA packed perfectly like Tom wants…

    yeah!! the shipping manager is back from coffee.. or they got twooooo of em..

    Wacky Wayne

  • Randy-in-VA Says:

    BB & JT – Thanks for the pellet seating info. I had never considered it for my 490. As soon as this new snow melts (and the old snow under it), I'll run the same test. (I've got a three-foot stack of phone books saved up.) Maybe try a variety of pellets.

    BB – How does the Bronco compare to the 490 in performance?

    There was a recent resurrection of the "heavy pellets harm springers" debate on the Yellow Forum. Based on my sample size of one, it's true. I put a couple of thousand CP Ultra Mags (CPH's) through my Crosman G1 before the spring died. Or maybe it's because it was a cheap airgun. I'll probably just cannibalize it since it's not worth what a spring would cost.

    The main problem is that now I've got a gun case with nothing in it. Decisions…decisions.

  • Frank B Says:

    Disaster has struck and I need help…While getting to know my new-to-me Hy-score M809,I failed to close the barrel 100% and fired.The dry fire sound was my wake up call.After clearing the barrel,I made attempt to shoot it again….it cocks,the sear holds,but will not fire when I pull the trigger.:{I held the barrel and pulled the trigger and successfully de-cocked it.That is where I am at now,besides being very angry that I made such a rookie mistake.Any Ideas anyone??

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Matt,
    Don't take the scope off on my account, I was just curious and wanted to see if the peeps on my 36-2 were OK. I'm indifferent as to open sights or peeps, usually, but peeps do make groups easier. I was just kidding about smarting — was lucky to get 15 shots on paper with my vast knowledge of BP shooting:).

    BB,
    I thought I commented earlier, but it disappeared (I do that a lot as I age). That mount looks solid. I'm happy with the Leapers Accushot one-piece, but it looks dainty compared to the BKL.

    JT,
    That's about the power level I'd expect, but the seating making a difference was more than I would have thought.

  • Vince Says:

    Frank B, I imagine that when the piston slammed home it first hit the cocking link (because it wasn't all the way forward). The cocking link might have bent when that happened.

    Do you now have trouble closing the barrel after the gun is cocked? I'm wondering if a) the cocking link got damaged, and b) it's somehow jamming the piston with the barrel closed.

    I'd take a real good look at that link and see if it got boogered up…

  • Frank B Says:

    Thanks,Vince.I suspect you are right.I'll pull it out of the stock and examine it…is 1978 pre or post unitized diana trigger?I'm just sick,this gun was like new. Frank B

  • Vince Says:

    Frank B, I dunno….

    Does the spring tube endcap look like what's seen here?

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/12/diana-27-part-1.html

    And do the trigger adjusting screws look like the ones shown here?

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/12/diana-27-part-2.html

    If they do, it's probably a pre-unitized trigger. But hopefully you shouldn't need to take the trigger out in any event.

  • Steve Says:

    Tom, save yerself the trouble. I was the guy who told you (several times) that the six-screw BKL's don't move. Ya didn't beleive me then, and told me so. Oh, well!

    I'm back to tell you that they don't move on Patriots – or 350s – or 460s – either. I've owned all the magnum springers. BKL's. Don't. Move.

    So. Disbeleive me again. Or take a grain, and save some wasted time. You can thank me later. Ta-ta.

  • Frank B Says:

    Vince,I have it open…pre-unitized.Apparently the trigger sear won't disengage unless I push back a little further than it is holding in the cocked position….then the trigger breaks and feels normal.So,Vince…do you want to make some money?This one used to be Wayne's,so you probably tuned it.Please say yes!

  • Anonymous Says:

    BB
    I need that new book,so hurry up! Na, take your time, we don't need you to leave anything out! I remember a few years ago the talk came up about a book and I mentioned that I would love a book from you – I think you said that one was a long way off. Just realized how long I've been reading this blog! Keep up the good work.
    Ton

  • Al Pellet Says:

    B.B.

    I'll be third in line for the book.

    Al Pellet

  • Frank B Says:

    Well BB,I didn't see where you opened up the line…..but for the rekord and in the spirit of monkee-see monkee-do…..I will take the next spot in this invisible line,to avoid being trampled later.I hope to get more than one copy!I,too wish there was a nice copy of the R1 book sitting on my desk,hopefully signed in person!

  • Vince Says:

    Frank B, email me at vfblovesnancy@yahoo.com

    Sure, I'll look at it. And no, I don't think I'd already seen this one… I did a Hyscore 806 for Wayne, but I don't think I did an 809. But I just got a Winchester 435 (another variant of the same gun) so I've got something to compare it to.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Randy in VA,

    The Bronco is the better gun when compared to the Hammerli 490. It's got a much lighter, crisper trigger, is even more accurate (though the 490 is pretty good), is a little larger, yet has a better pull length for older kids and it looks much nicer.

    The 490 cocks even easier than the Bronco and the sights are easier to adjust.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Steve,

    You were one of many people who told me BKL mounts don't move. But I'm into this test and have to go through with it.

    Thanks for the reassurance.

    B.B.

  • Joe 3006-springfield@msn.com Says:

    Edith / Tom-BB Pell / BG

    Re: Pell Shipment from Pyramyd….They have my email address as I've gotten a number of items. Also I emailed them when I opened the master carton to advise them of the scatttered pellets in the box and on our floor ….. so far no response from them. I actually feel the fault is the design of the cardboard box that Crosman packs the pellets in. It simply bent under stress and created the leakers and the problem got worse in shipping. A one inch piece of nylon filament tape is used to secure the box, and not robust enough to do the job intended.

    BG, on the O6,,,,it's been around a while. It pretty well took over where the 30-40 Krag left off. If you look at the profile of the Springfield and the Krag, you will see a lot of similar humps nd bumps. Unfortuantly the Krauts could pick up our 06 and fire back at us in their K-98's, but it was not a two wy street with the 8MM.

    Tom, parts are still a matter of supply and demand and price. Riverbank Armory in California http://www.riverbankarmory.com has a lot of parts as does Sarco in NJ. James River is not a parts house, but puts together Restorations, and will take your rifel and "restore" it. Again though, do not expect a museum piece in that parts matching is not their game. They make your piece functional and a good shooter, and looking good. They do not make any extraordinary effort to match manufacturing codes….which means you essentially get a gov;t type rebuild and a pot lock …..if you send them matching parts, they will accommodate that in their rebuild.

    Edith…the email address is real.

  • twotalon Says:

    I think we got some snow…..

    twotalon

  • Wayne Says:

    Frank,
    that 809 was in such nice shape I never needed to send it to Vince…

    But.. Vince has these weird powers over matter.. You had no control over the gun.. It just wanted to visit Vince.. and that's all there is to it! .. he is "One" with Airguns".. and we all just have to adjust our lives accordingly..

    So.. my friend .. all you can do is "go with the flow"

    If you guys need a .22 cal Hy-Score 809 for parts, (I don't know if the cocking lever is the same) I just listed that dinged up one on the yellow.. but it's more than just a parts gun.. she shoot great.

    This just in…..

    The dozen retired navy seals I hired for mission "E&TUSFTinTEX" returned with black eyes, bloody noses, broken fingers and fireant bites all over their body…

    We lost the war guys… I guess it happened when Tom bought Edith that Wii for Christmas… we waited to long! I give up!

    Wacky Wayne, Match Director, Ashland Air Rifle Range

  • CJr Says:

    Wayne,
    Your problem is you hired Navy Seals. They are most effective while attacking from or on the water. There ain't enough water in Texas. You need to hire the French Foreign Legion.

  • Wayne Says:

    Cjr,

    HHmmmmm… I'm not finding them in the yellow pages…

    I can see where the seals might have had a problem with "approach".. the fire ants live underground.. not easy to swim with them!

    Wacky Wayne

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Joe 3006,

    Pyramyd Air tells me the Crosman cardboard boxes are something their system doesn't handle well yet. Thanks for that info.

    Riverbank Armory was the place where I learned what my Carbine is worth–at least to his customers. I enjoy looking through that site.

    B.B.

  • Frank B Says:

    Wayne,If you are reading this…the other '809 is sold.I will Email you about it.Thanks for "blaming" Vince,but I get the darwin award on this one…all my fault.there wasn't even a scope in the way.:{

  • CJr Says:

    Wayne,
    You'll have to use the Algerian phone book.
    -Chuck

  • Ryan Says:

    B.B.

    How are the Red Ryder and Marlin Cowboy actions different? I'd also like to know if the Cowboy uses a spring fed magazine or if you need to shake it to make sure it feeds.

    Thanks, Ryan

  • kevin Says:

    B.B.,

    Are you still working on a new pellet?

    Since you seem to know what the market wanted in an entry level rifle my curiousity about your pellet has dramatically increased.

    kevin

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Ryan,

    Since the Marlin Cowboy has a 700-shot BB reservoir I doubt that is anything beyond gravity fed.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Kevin,

    No, my new pellet idea is dead.

    B.B.

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Wayne,
    If the seals were "retired", as in Tom's age, they may have spent a good deal of the time arguing Army vs. Navy with him and trying to remember why they were there after he finished showing them his collection. I'm sure Edith knew that with a few beverages, they would all be fine, agreeing loudly on what's wrong with the current generation. My guess is that the wounds rub off with soap and water and that some of them will be going back for the holidays:).

  • Wayne Says:

    BG_Farmer,

    Ya know.. I thought some of the black eyes looked painted on.. you could be right!…

    How in the world do I get an Algerian phone book… I hate to fly!

    Wacky Wayne

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    BG_Farmer,

    Nah, they were in the bathroom most of the time. It was a drag because I needed to go, too.

    B.B.

  • Ryan Says:

    Therefore I don't understand what differences the actions could have.

  • Edith Gaylord Says:

    Wayne,

    You said that you're going to give up, but you're already planning your next spec ops.

    Keep in mind that Texans–native or transplant–don't give up, surrender, retreat or negotiate. We aim to win :-) Always!

    No matter what you throw at us, we're in it to the end. Incidentally, when I started playing Wii, my Wii age was 80. After a few weeks, my Wii age is 37. In reality, I'm 61. I'm getting younger & feistier by the day. Better watch out!

    Edith

  • Jay Says:

    BB,

    Looking forward to your new book, and would love to see an updated copy of the R1 book as well. Glad to hear it will be "on demand" vs. a limited run.

    My 300 arrived before the snow started on Thursday. Shoots very nicely, but the stock (walnut) is in need of a refinish (no surprise). Anyone care to hazard a guess as to the finish on this Walther LGV? Walnut stain with an oil finish? Also, does anyone have experience with lubricating the sled? Mine seems to be in good shape, but I suspect it could use a little moly (sounds dry).

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/79574/thread/1265425089/LGV+Spezial

    Thanks,

    Jay

  • Wayne Says:

    Edith,

    I gave up.. but the troops are mad now!

    If we wait long enough you'll be back in pre-school!

    Keep us posted on your Wii progress…

    The foreign legion is tunneling over from France…. your Wii progress might be faster than their digging.. so please keep me posted!

    If we plan it right.. Tom will be in an old folks home shooting the nurses in the butt with a cork gun… and you'll be at pre-school when they pop up under your coffee table..

    Let's see, where is my slide rule….

    Wacky Wayne

  • Wayne Says:

    Edith..

    I guess them San Antonio Spurs must be from New Mexico or sumthin..

    Cause our Portland Trail Blazers kicked a little butt the other night!.. well maybe not kicked.. but stealing at the last minute!.. we'll take it anyway!

    Wacky Wayne

  • Bob M Says:

    Thanks for the heads up Fred. Seems like I went too far down the Pyramyd Air Report page and posted on Jan 28…Live and learn!

    In short, I was just thanking everyone for my air gun education via the blog.

    BoB M

  • kevin Says:

    Bob M,

    Glad you found your way here.

    Read your earlier post about your evolution reading this blog and applying what you learned to that chinese airgun.

    Just a few years ago I could have written that but not as eloquently.

    You've learned about cleaning a barrel (only when necessary), searching for the right pellet, keeping your stock screws tight, perfecting the artillery hold and putting the right scope on a springer.

    How are your groups now?

    What are your opinions of the evanix renegade?

    Us old guys need to stick together.

    kevin

  • Bob M Says:

    This is good…..I post my first blog ever on the wrong page, go back and E mail PA, orders and sales, and let them know I received my third shipment of crushed pellets and loose BBs, return to the current blog page and its a topic!
    I recently retired from a well known "Over Night" feight shipper in "Ohio" as an aircraft troubleshooter (IN CA) and offered PA some suggestions, having seen it all in cargo bays.

    Almost all BB and pellet containers will fail to protect or contain their contents when slammed. Too much mass weight in motion. They, in particular, need shock absorbing padding and secure packaging. Not tossed in a big box with a little paper thrown in.

    The ones that do make it into hard foam packs don't protect the soft pellets inside if the crushing force is not absorbed and gets passed on to the pellets inside.

    Another company uses some sort of air inflated clear plastic stringed 'packets' to fill up the shipping package. Seems to work better.

    Bob M

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Damaged pellets resulting from poor packaging,

    Well, I found the problem. Pyramyd Air tells me they ran out of pellet packing materials a week ago and have been shipping them in boxes cushioned with plain brown paper. Since they ship so many pellets in a week, that means hundreds of pellet orders have gone out with that packaging.

    They are aware of the problems this is causing and promise to reship any orders that have arrived damaged. They hope to be back on line with the right materials soon.

    B.B.

  • AlanL Says:

    B.B.,
    I am still confused as to your opinion on JSB Diabolo Exact pellets for the RWS Diana 54, in .22 caliber. In Part 3 of your discussion on this gun you said the groups you got with the 15.8 grain JSB Exact pellet were disappointing. That's strong words coming from you. That particular pellet (as linked from your post) is now discontinued. So, would your assessment still apply to the currently available version of the JSB Exact 15.8 grain pellet?

    Also, do you see any marked difference in accuracy at 25-35 yards using the 14.3 or 18.1 grain JSB Exact pellet instead?

    All told, do you still prefer the 14.3 grain Crosman Premiers in the carton over the JSB Exact 14.3 grain pellet or the current version of the JSB 15.8 pellet?

    Thanks again for the benefit of all your expertise. It is hard to imagine how you find the time to so consistently share it all with us, given the many things you do.

    AlanL

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    AlanL,

    Don't put too much emphasis on what I say about the 54, because I don't own one. I borrowed the rifle you read about.

    The questions you ask about the differences between JSB pellets of different weights are things I never tested when I had the rifle.

    And I tested it on a windy day! Read what the owners say about the rifle. They shoot it a lot more than I did.

    However, when I re-read my report I saw that the Premier pellet was the best in the rifle I tested. I would therefore get that pellet for this model, no matter what other pellets I got.

    B.B.

  • twotalon Says:

    AlanL
    It depends a lot on what each individual rifle likes.
    My 48 seems to like cp, fts,and 15.8 exacts about equally well ….as far as I can tell from shooting out the back door at things in the snow ..with open sights.
    At this point I would prefer the other two over crosman because of how they seat when loading. Would like to try the light exact and the rws superdomes too, but at this point, I'm mostly trying to break it in before doing any serious testing.Would need a scope and warmer weather for that.
    Since I want to stick with open sights, I will probably see what shoots the best and sound smoothest with the rifle as long as I like the way the pellets seat the way I like.

    twotalon

  • Mr B. Says:

    Vince,

    Re George's comments on shortening the barrel of a Diana 48 to get a faster lock time: how is lock time defined in our world of air guns and is it the same in the powder burners. I thought that it's the time it takes for the fireing pin to hit the primer and not the total time from the sear release to the bullet leaving the end of the barrel.

    Mr B.

  • kevin Says:

    AlanL,

    It's not unusual for each gun, of the same model, to have a different preference for pellets.

    At the relative short distance of 25-35 yards you're talking about for the Diana 54 B.B.'s and other owners experiences with pellets can help narrow your choices but don't treat them as gospel.

    I shot alot of different pellets through my .22 caliber Diana 54 at 50 yards. Last summer a friend of mine brought over his Diana 54 in .22 caliber. He typically shot pests at 20-25 yards in his backyard using predator pellets.

    He's an old hunting buddy of mine and a good shot. He was shocked to see the lack of accuracy at 50 yards with his chosen pellet. The pellet testing began in his Diana 54.

    Before we started testing a variety of pellets in his 54 I tightened the stock screws, scope mounts and cleaned his barrel using B.B.'s jb bore paste technique.

    His 54 in .22 caliber liked the same pellets as mine did and hated the same pellets. We must have shot at least 15 different types of pellets.

    The jsb exact 15.8 gr (red tin), 5.52 were among the worst. The Air Arms diabolo field 15.7-15.8 gr, 5.51 was the second best pellet and shot groups at 50 yards the next day that tied it for first place. Interesting since this Air Arms pellet is/was made by jsb and the specs are almost identical to the jsb exacts in the red tin. Many people say these are the same pellet but my experience says otherwise. In addition to different performance the Air Arms pellets that I have are marked 5.51 for head size and the jsb exacts red tin is marked 5.52 for head size.

    Two pellets tied for first in his 54 and mine. I've already shared with you a few days ago that the jsb diabolo exact (blue tin) 14.3 gr 5.52 was the most accurate pellet in my gun. It actually tied for first in my gun and my friends gun. The other pellet that tied for first place was the Crosman Premiers in the cardboard box 14.3 gr Die lot #2. I also have this pellet from Die lot #1 and they were 7th or 8th best pellet. Dramatic difference from the "same" pellet but from different die lots.

    I didn't put this pellet on my recommended list a few days ago for your new 54 for two reasons. First, Die lot #2 is no longer made and therefor rare and expensive. Secondly, they leaded the barrel of my 54 quickly. Don't know if they would have leaded the bore of my friends gun since he only shot 50-60 of these pellets through his gun.

    The jsb 18.1 gr pellets are relatively new. I never shot them in my 54 and didn't shoot any in my friends 54 but they would be worth a try in your new 54.

    Now you have the rest of the story.

    kevin

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Mr. B.,

    You are right about lock time. It is the time that it takes the lock (originally a flintlock, I believe) to ignite the main charge of powder. There really is no direct translation for lock time to pellet guns, since they have at least three different powerplants that must be defined separately.

    In an spring-piston airgun the lock time could be the time that it takes the pellet to exit the muzzle, or it could be the time it takes the pellet to begin moving. The second definition is closer to what the original firearm lock time definition described, but that definition did not take into account the dreadful dwell time of the bullet (pellet in our case) in transit inside the barrel.

    So, although we can argue about George's use of terms, we all understand what he means.

    I agree with Vince that shortening the barrel will not shorten the lock time appreciably (using the first definition, because using the second definition, it won't be affected at all), but it will change the vibration nodes of that barrel. That may either be good or bad, and the only way to tell is to make the cut. Of course, once made, the barrel cannot be restored to its former length.

    But George is on a quest to learn something and we should not try to prevent it. He may ruin his gun, or not, but what he is doing should not be dangerous. And when he is done he can report back all the differences he has discovered.

    George, as you can see, not many people have ever removed a barrel from an RWS Diana sidelever. You understand what it takes by your own words. It6 is a press fit and epoxy is used. There are barrel droop issues that you will have to discover for yourself as you progress.

    Good luck!

    B.B.

  • ajvenom Says:

    BB – Can I get my new TG book autographed by the author?

    As for the new pellet packaging….I think it's great, but I do feel that the foam should be a little softer.

    Twotalon – It's about time someone else got the snow. Too bad it happened to you. Stay warm.

    I don't have a chrono – but I do have phone books, a variety of airguns and a scale based on data from shooting crosman 7.9gr .177 domes and another based on 14.3gr .22 domes. All shot at 10 meters. Now I can use the scale to make sure the power is still up on airgun before I take it out hunting or to see if there are any changes.

    Also, If I can blow a hole through the bottom of a cambell's soup can at 10 meters sitting on the cement, it usually means it's not going to be a good day for vermin.

  • AlanL Says:

    Kevin,

    Wow- that's very disconcerting. Such different performance from identical pellets but different die lots. Having to specify even that when searching and ordering is almost too much of a hassle. As to the JSB's, PA doesn't specify the exact head sizes, so I may have to take my own advice and order the the 14.3 grain blue tin JSB 5.52's from that Mexican site that I suggested to B.B. earlier (did they come through for you, B.B?). The Air Arms Diabolo Field 5.51 seems also not to be on PA's site- they only offer a 16 grain with very mixed reviews. At this point my head is spinning!

    My concern rests on the fact that I'm going to be grappling with three huge variables at once: A new gun, being a new shooter myself, and pellets. If my accuracy is poor, I won't have a clue what to blame. With the "right" pellet at least one of those variables becomes less of one.

    Thanks again for all your advice.

    Fred PRoNJ:

    I made contact with Martin Cardew, just as you suggested. He sold me two of his books "The Airgun from Trigger to Target" for £25 Sterling each, postpaid (works out to about US$39 each.)

    As for the Blue Book 7th edition, holy moly, that is one tough read to find! All regular sources like PA, Amazon and Barnes & Noble are sold out. Dr. Beeman's personal website invites you to pay him directly through PayPal but that page hasn't been updated since late 2008 and he didn't respond to my inquiry, so… I don't know.
    So I finally bought one from a bookseller in England whom I found through my favorite book search engine, AbeBooks.com. Including priority shipping that came to US$41.45. Thanks very much for the recommendations on these books. Can't wait to read them.

    I finally got my duct seal! Cleaned out two of three Lowe's stores in Miami and got 14 pugs. They advertised $1.97 per 1lb pug online but charged $2.38 each plus tax in the store. As expected, finding them was like an Easter egg hunt. Not in Electrical, not in Plumbing, not in Heating and Air Conditioning, but in… Hardware. Go figure. The in-store item number for anybody who wants to go shopping is 13591. That'll make it easier to check stock and locate. This applies equally to the Gardner Bender and Ideal brands. They had a mix of both.

    TwoTalon:

    Weather today for the Super Bowl: Perfect. Low 70's, dry, ice blue skies. As any good Miamian, I, of course, will enjoy it staying inside.

    -AlanL

  • twotalon Says:

    AlanL
    Just go ahead and shoot it for a while. Once you are fairly sure that you are shooting as good as possible, then try other pellets…..go one step at a time.

    Your 54 should be less hold sensitive than my 48, but it doses not hurt to treat them like a 48…

    Watch the front stock screw..mine needed a bit of blue loctite.
    My 48 also likes to be supported a little to the rear of the balance point with my off hand.
    Very light cheek on the stock, and very light hold with my trigger hand….pretty much the standard artillery hold.
    If you decide to try open sights, the adjustment works backwards…adjusting to the right moves poi to the left.Seems to be marked wrong.

    Stop shooting when you start flinching.

    twotalon

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Alan,
    Just get some pellets and shoot the thing:). It will take a tin or two for the gun to break and for you to start to get a feel for it. Note also that pellet preferences have been known to change (usually towards more forgiving) after a few tins. Weighing, sorting, cleaning and lubing of pellets is for the fanatics; it sucks a lot of the fun out for many of us, so its up to you.

    Jay,
    From the pictures, that 300 looks fine as is, but picture lie like statistics. I'm guessing there's no stain on the wood (it looks like honest Euro-walnut). Finish could be pure oil (unlikely), oil/varnish mix (RLO, Tru-Oil, etc.), lacquer, or poly. Do you want to take it down to bare wood and do a nice oil rubbed finish (maybe with a slightly tinted oil)? Some of the 300's I've seen were a little darker with the almost matte or satin hue of oil, and they looked really nice, although I'm having real problems giving up an actual protective finish for pretty:). You'll probably need to read up on sealing (Walnut is open) and consult with FrankB and Kevin.

  • Mr B. Says:

    AlanL,

    BG_Farmer is 100% correct in his advise. Shoot a couple of tins and enjoy the experience while breaking in your gun.

    Mr B.

  • kevin Says:

    AlanL,

    I'm an accuracy fanatic. I expected my 54 to shoot a 10 shot group that could be covered with a quarter at 30 yards. If the pellet couldn't do that I tried another. Many pellets can do that in your 54 after it's broken in and you learn it's shooting behavior.

    Fewer pellets can do it at 50 yards but I've given you some insights.

    I think you'll be very happy with your new 54 and its' accuracy at the 25-35 yard range you'll be shooting with many different pellets. If (when?) you become an accuracy nazi then you have some of my pellet experiences at longer distances to draw on.

    Haven't seen the air arms diabolo field pellets sold for some time. I think they've been discontinued. The jsb's in blue tin are available from many vendors in the USA. Not sure why Pyramyd Air quit stocking them.

    A final thought. Quit sweating something that should be fun. Finding the right pellet for your gun, at the distances you shoot, is a great reason to get your gun out. Try lots of different pellets and enjoy the journey. You'll probably find a pellet that works better in your gun than any I tested. This can be a fun hobby. Don't make it work.

    kevin

  • kevin Says:

    Jay,

    Congratulations on the new acquisition. Fine looking 10 meter gun.

    Personally I wouldn't touch that stock. I'd shoot the living daylights out of it until it really needed another refinish.

    Tough to tell from Matt's picture but looks like it was refinished in oil without stain. Have you asked Matt if he knows? Maybe he could put you in touch with the previous owner if he doesn't.

    As far as lubing the sled I'd ask Matt about that as well and/or ask on the vintage forum.

    kevin

  • Vince Says:

    Mr. B, I used the 'trigger-pull-to-pellet-exit' definition of lock time because that's obviously what the gentleman was talking about.

    BB, I know what you mean about letting someone experiment. But I was just trying to point out that his modification wasn't really going to do what he wanted it to do, and could certainly have unintended consequences. Obviously he can do whatever he likes, but (and I guess it's just me) I'd get a little squeamish about using a T01 '48 as a guinea pig for something like this.

  • kevin Says:

    Vince,

    Please continue offering your insights and advice based on your extensive experience.

    You're one of the main reasons I enjoy reading this blog.

    kevin

  • joe 3006-springfield@msn.com Says:

    To Anonymous Re: Clint Fowler and to BB Pell ReL Pyramyd pellet Packers….

    Clint Fowler is just down the Street from James Rivery Armory in Maryland. When he was first getting started I got him a bridge gage for checking M1 Garands. He does a good job but has gotten a bit pricey. There are others who build some really nice M1 and M1A's out there. Arrington Accuracy and Mel Smith have been building a long time. A guy I trust though is a former Marine Master Gunny Sgt Gus Fisher, in Virginia. Gus spent a portion of his service career building sniper and match rifles for the USMC at Quantico. He is not only a gentleman, but knows his stuff. He does not advertise at all and attends the Richmond VA gun shows and sets up as Gus's Garands. He will work on your Garand at the show (also Springfields and GI 45's)…..if more extensive stuff is needed, he will set up a schedule for you. He also contributed to Knudsen's Book about the M1 and M1A.

    BB, thanks for the comment about Pyramyd recognizing their packing problem and using brown paper for packing. As an FYI, they used two sheets of brown paper for packing in a box which probably required 6 – 10. Considering their business is to insure quality in all aspects, this does not bode well for them. Generally they do an excellent job, so I just call this strike one. Don't want to beat a horse to death.

    Quick ques to BB re: Bronco. I like wood. What is the stock made from? and what finish? Just stain? How about overall length and weight? Darned if I might not have to get one. See the power of this blog !!!!!!!!

  • Mr B. Says:

    B.B.,

    A question about the artillery hold relating it to POI changes when shooting off hand. Should we expect much of a change in it when sighted in using the AH and then hitting the field hunting?

    I just know you're going to say that I should take the gun out and shoot it, but I've got 2+ feet of snow and cann't do the testing.

    Thanks
    Mr B.

  • AlanL Says:

    Thanks everybody, you are right– I am sweating the details way too much. Comes from reading all these blogs! I'll just break it in and have fun. And I have no excuse but to focus on those paper targets– the big iguanas that were munching on my wife's flowers and veggies all up and died in the recent cold snaps.
    -AlanL

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Vince,

    I agree completely. But from the way he wrote the comment it was clear he had his mind made up. When that happens I just back off and let 'er rip.

    However, I have absolutely no sympathy after disaster strikes.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Joe 3006,

    I should know the answer, but I'm not certain. I thought it was maple and the one I'm testing certainly looks like clear maple, but I'm wondering if it could be poplar.

    I will inquire. I have two more reports scheduled for the Bronco, so I'll report what I find then.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Mr. B.,

    Oddly I don't find very much difference when changing holds. But my hunting hold with a springer is also an artillery hold, so that could explain it. Also my FT hold. In fact, the artillery hold is pretty much everyone's springer FT hold.

    B.B.

  • Frank B Says:

    BB,can you offer any update on your "Blue Wonder" experiment #2.Has the finish changed at all?I just re-blued,well technically resurfaced, a barrel 5 days ago,and even under 120 lumen led light it looks great.for a finishing oil I used parrafin based turbine oil,it has great rust inhibition.It is the bottle Ace hdw. sells with that long spout that extends.This is one of those rare snake oils that actually works.I used a space heater to heat the barrel,followed the directions kinda,good results!!

  • kevin Says:

    Barely airgun related. Skip this unless you're snowed in today like me and have finished your chores.

    As many know I own a second home in the Rocky Mountains. This home is on a 2,200 acre private fishing club established in the early 1900's. We have 150 members and all but two have homes somewhere on the club. This is where I shoot most of the time during the summer.

    It's a special place for my family. We all fish, ride atv's, shoot, go metal detecting and enjoy the beauty that surrounds us when we're there. A major elk migratory route crosses the north end of our club. Not unusual to see 200 elk at once crossing between ranges.

    The DOW (Division Of Wildlife) spent over $250,000 a few years back installing special knockdown fencing on private property along a county road so the elk would no longer get tangled in the old barb wire fences.

    Yesterday we had our quarterly board meeting. One of our agenda items was an update from the County Commissioners on a bike/pedestrian trail that is being proposed parallel to the Arkansas River that runs through the west side of our property.

    One of the County Commissioners that was kind enough to show up to our meeting has been a friend for years. Prior to the our meeting coming to order he told me about a letter he received from the wife of one of our newest members. Only met these new members once but they're nice city folks that live out of state most of the time. They flew in several times last summer, fished and attended a few of our parties.

    The letter was addressed to the County Commissioners and requested removal of the ELK CROSSING sign on our road. The reason she gave? "Too many elk are being hit by cars out here! I don't think this is a good place for them to be crossing anymore.."

    kevin

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Frank,

    An update would be that after many months with intentional handling of the barrel there has been no degradation at all. Blue Wonder is the most remarkable finish I have ever used.

    B.B.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Kevin,

    LMAO!

    I used to run into thinking like that in the Army!

    B.B.

  • Frank B Says:

    BB,thank you…after much cynicism I must admit I am really impressed.No more running water over a project in a hurry to neutralise this or that….I ruined an enamel over iron bathtub with a couple drops of bluing once!Bright orange stains that nothing would touch!

  • joe 3006-springfield@ msn.com Says:

    To BB…. re Bronco

    Bronco looks like Maple in the Pyramyd Web page…..but who can tell these days unless it is sawed in two. Even plastic today looks like Maple. Poplar is relatively soft, so I hope it is Maple. Thanks for checking. I like the two stage trigger configuration…..feels much like the military triggers I assume. Only crisper?

  • Frank B Says:

    Kevin,would you ever consider adoption??Nothing difficult to manage like a child,but….maybe a self sufficient 43 year old? Frank

  • Mr B. Says:

    Kevin,

    I'm still waiting, still hoping for you to post that it's a joke, but I am afraid that it's a true story.

    An excellent opportunity for a teaching moment…? Good luck!

    Mr B.

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Kevin,
    They take universal literacy seriously out there, huh:)?

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Joe 3006,

    While it's almost impossible to get a trigger any crisper than a good Trapdoor or Rolling Block, I'd say the Bronco trigger is so much lighter that it feels better. Not crisper, just better. It approaches a Swiss Kar 31, though it's not quite that nice.

    And yes on the maple. Poplar is indeed a softer wood, though its considered a hardwood. But it's the fastest-growing hardwood there is, so it's soft. It's also very carve-able. This stock just feels like maple to me.

    B.B.

  • kevin Says:

    Frank B,

    I don't buy or adopt anything anymore that eats. Sorry.

    kevin

  • kevin Says:

    Mr B.,

    Don't think it was a joke since he used the member name but if it was he told it well and with a straight face.

    Teaching moment? No. Just going to have a sign made for her.

    kevin

  • kevin Says:

    BG_Farmer,

    Huh?

    kevin

  • Frank B Says:

    Kevin,OK,so that's a yes….providing I stop eating!I'll have the papers drawn up…after the Saints win tonight!

  • Bob M Says:

    Kevin, that China made springer I talked about last night now puts 6 shots in a 5/8" hole followed up with 2 dead center shots from 20 feet (In house,resting arm on soft box) 4X scope.
    It has moved from trash to treasure thanks to this blog. I haven't put more than two hundred shots through it yet.

    The EVANIX RENEGADE is a pure joy to shoot. Kinda like a bull barrel Ruger 1022. I have put a 6-24×50 Leapers on it but haven't done more than verify it works yet. Same for the CONDOR. In the quiet mode it has a loud metalic ring after each shot, may need to address that.

    If anyone is interested I have modified the last (Junk discontinued) version of the Daisy 1894 to operate like the original 60s version, very nice plinker now.

    Bob M

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    BB,
    Maple doesn't seem too far off for the Bronco, although its probably not sugar or red (looks like a faster growing species from the pictures). Birch (or even alder if they are desparate) would also be a possibility. Most poplar here (which is not really poplar) has a tighter and straighter grain, but some variety could be an option; under a poly or epoxy type coating, it would hold up pretty well. Even though the finish is blond, it looks like the finish is a tinted polyurethane or other industry friendly finish, i.e. not a clear coat over the wood. That technique has provided gun manufacturers flexibility in sourcing wood for years:). My favorite "finish" is the one Marlin uses on their 60's now — it looks like fancy wood from a distance, but I'm half convinced it has more in common with a kitchen countertop than a tree:).

  • Anonymous Says:

    Joe Springfield,

    Thanks for the references of gunsmiths. Clint Fowler put together an MOA M1 Garand for me with a new GI issue barrel and new stock for $1600. There may be better but there is surely a heck of a lot worse. I thought it would also help that he is a High Master shooter himself and he is very generous with advice and easy to talk to. However, I will look up those other names as well.

    B.B., I have found the solution to the jamming clips of the M1! I just load 7 instead of 8 and they work fine–Greek or G.I. issue. It appears that even a slight deformation with 8 rounds will cause a jam but a clip will have to be really far gone to jam with 7.

    Matt61

  • Mr B. Says:

    Kevin,

    I thought it was, hopefully, going to be a joke from you to us.

    Dare I ask what your sign for her is going to say?

    Mr B

  • Mr B. Says:

    Frank B,

    Sorta like–when pigs fly?

    Mr B.

  • Mr B. Says:

    Bob M,

    Thanks for the offer. Yes please tell us about the modification of the 1894.

    Mr B.

  • Frank B Says:

    MrB,Kevin is an awesome salesman…He wouldn't respect me if I didn't persist a little!:} Frank B

  • Frank B Says:

    Jay,I have to agree[happen to]with Kevin…it's a beautiful gun as is.Now shoot the heck out of it!!!If you get tired of it,I'll give it a nice home in the country…LOL WV:ininie the knights that say "ni"!

  • Frank B Says:

    Superbowl 44 Champion New Orleans SAINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • kevin Says:

    Frank B,

    You called the big one.

    I'm re-thinking my position on adoption.

    If you can establish a track record of calling games I'll adopt you.

    Congraulations!

    ps-I was cheering for the underdog too.

    kevin

  • kevin Says:

    Mr B.,

    You need to watch Bill Engvall to know about the sign I'm referring to.

    kevin

  • kevin Says:

    Bob M,

    The chinese springer is interesting. I'm impressed.

    Are your impressions of the Evanix that it's loud for a pcp?

    Didn't know you had a condor. Have you installed a depinger and/or a quieting device?

    kevin

  • Frank B Says:

    Kevin,I had the Saints winning by 10! in my gut this morning….never backpeddle from a hunch.I once won a 3.5 carat diamond tennis bracelet in a doorprise drawing,and knew I was going to win 3 hours before the drawing.My friends were witnesses,they ditched me in the club because I wouldn't stop talking about it BEFORE it happened,no BS….need more proof?

  • Jay Says:

    Kevin and Frank B,

    The FWB300 I picked up has the original finish, and it's worn even more than my R10 was. It's a walnut stock with lacquer finish. I was looking at Matt's LGV as a stock I really like, and I heard back from him this morning. TruOil over bare walnut, no stain. I think it came out very nice.

    Lots of snow out here in southwest VA. When it snows, go skiing. Nothing like the Rockies, but WV is far better than I expected, and the slope is less than 90 minutes away.

    I did get the R10 outside today for the first time since I finished it. Had to modify the Williams FP-GR-TK a bit to clear the stock. Shoots as well as it looks! I may need to fit a stop screw in the sight, however. It really wants to slide back along the rail.

    Thanks,

    Jay

  • Frank B Says:

    Jay,You may want to go to airrifleheadquarters.com and bring up royal london oil from the menu under finishes…there is a great tutorial down-page from it.Also in the blog comments from early december,I think it was a friday post on the Red Rider on this blog,there was alot on the subject of stock finishes discussed.Take time,do research and be patient.you will do great!

  • kevin Says:

    Jay,

    I'm hopeful that you read my earlier post about the assessment of your finish…"…refinished in oil without stain."

    Not a bad assessment from the faraway pictures eh?

    Not very interested in talking about skiing.

    Took my daughter skiing for the first time over the Christmas holiday. She loved it. Bugged us unrelentlessly until we took her skiing again 3 weeks ago.

    She did great. Had lunch at the lodge and went back out. 3 runs later she did a helicopter. She's not the normal kid when it comes to pain so I knew when I skied up to her there was a problem.

    She lost her right ski and when she tried to stand up she couldn't. Mom was skiing in front and I was behind. Mom went for the ski patrol.

    45 minutes later she was in the first aid station. They put a splint on her leg and off to the Leadville hospital we went.

    Spiral fracture of the tibia. They put her leg in a half cast and sent us to our home in the mountains.

    Went back to the city the next day and visited the neurosurgeon. Took off the straight half cast and put her in a full leg bent cast and she can't put any weight on it. She's in a wheel chair for 6 weeks.

    Most of our friends say, "Oh that poor girl." Wrong. My daughter now has a throne with wheels and where the chair can't navigate someone carries here to her destination. She now has hard core evidence that she is the queen that she always suspected she was.

    We went shopping yesterday for tiara's so she can have one for each day of the week.

    More accurately, "Oh poor mom and dad."

    kevin

  • Anonymous Says:

    Is Pyramyd air planing to sell RWS Model 56 and did you or are you planning to have a look at it. It looks good

  • kevin Says:

    Anonymous asking about the rws 56,

    Looks like a 54 in different clothing to me. Considering the additional weight (11+ lbs) I think a person would be better off having a custom fit thumbhole stock added to 54 action.

    Be cheaper, better fit and lighter weight. Just my humble opinion.

    kevin

  • BG_Farmer Says:

    Kevin,
    If we're keeping score, he said, "TruOil over bare walnut, no stain". That means it is a oil/varnish, not a pure oil, which I said was unlikely from the picture:).

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Diana 56,

    I don't know whether Umarex USA plans to import the Diana 56. Unless they do, nobody in the U.S. will be able to get it from them.

    One imported from Europe might be limited power.

    However, since it's just the RWS Diana 54 in a different stock, the performance should be the same.

    B.B.

  • Edith Gaylord Says:

    Frank B,

    That's a fantastic skill you have. I have one, too. I can pick slot machines that will give me a lot more money than what I put in. I tried to communicate my skill to Tom so he could play & win when he went to Vegas for the SHOT Show this year, but the machines didn't cooperate. I know I'm going to sound like a kook, but there are machines that "talk to me." I locate them, put in my money and they pay me back much more than I put in.

    Edith

  • Edith Gaylord Says:

    RWS 56,

    The RWS guns are imported by Umarex USA. Contact them and tell them that you'd like them to import the RWS 56.

    Edith

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Loyal subjects Kevin and Mrs. Lentz,

    You should be pleased that the queen has bestowed upon you the honor of tending to Her Majesty's every need. This experience is meant to be humbling, but gratifying at the same time.

    Now, give her a silver bell and lose the last shred of your freedom.

    B.B.

  • ajvenom Says:

    FALK THE SAINTS!!!!!!!

  • SteveJ Says:

    UPS just called and said my P30 and UTG laser would be in tomorrow, looking forward to my 1st air pistol other than my 1377 which you can't scope. This is all new to me so I need help sighting the laser and pistol. I have a set of the cheap Walmart bags but sure don't know what to do with the pistol and laser. I know they are not real accurate and short range but would like to be able to get it as well as I can, any help?

  • FRED Says:

    Steve,

    congratulations on your new pistol but which P30 is it? Unfortunately, I see a blank firing pistol, an airsoft pistol and a CO2 pistol that fires both pellets and BB's, listed for this H&K model.

    You should also know that very few of us monitor the older blog comments. There are a core of volunteers, of which I am one, that do. For more help and greater flow of comments, feel free to post your question on the current day's blog. You can find it at:

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog

    Off-topic comments are more than welcome. Repeat your question there and specify which P30 and who made it.

    Fred PRoNJ

  • Mr B Says:

    SteveJ,

    Fred gave you good advice to post your question on the current blog, but a laser is real easy to sight in. Attach it to the rail on the bottom of your P30's slide. Sight your pistol in using its iron sights from a good rest (your WalMart bags). Once the gun is sighted in fire a shot, again from your rest and adjust the laser's dot to hit that pellet hole. The key is to keep the gun immobile until you dial in the laser.

    If you get stuck let us know, preferable on the current post, and we'll help you out.

    Mr B.

  • SteveJ Says:

    Thanks for the info, the one I got was the H & K P30
    http://www.pyramydair.com/p/Heckler-Koch-p30-CO2-pistol.shtml
    that shoots pellets and BB's, I know I should have gotten a cheaper pellet pistol for my first one but for some reason this was the one that grabbed me. I guess I thought this was the last blog but will try to do better with my next questions.

  • CJr Says:

    SteveJ,
    You don't have to guess which blog is the most current. Go here and you're guaranteed to get the most current blog all the time. Happy shooting!

    http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/

    -Chuck

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