by B.B. Pelletier
Before we start, the Friday Facebook event from 10 to 11 a.m., Eastern, is coming up tomorrow. I’ll be answering airgun questions on Facebook on this Pyramyd AIR Facebook page. To see the discussion, you must have a free Facebook account. You do not have to be a recognized Friend of Pyramyd AIR to ask a question.
If you want to set up a Facebook account, register on the link provided above. Once you have an account, sign in and then click on the link above once more to go to the page. Please join me on Friday, if you’re able!
Now, let’s shoot the Gamo DynaMax PCP! I will say that this session went a lot different than the first time I shot the rifle. Then, I had the Gamo scope that came with the rifle mounted on the DynaMax, and the best 10-shot groups I could get at 50 yards were 1.5 inches across. That was because the scope has a large central dot that obscures a one-inch circle on the target paper, making it impossible to aim precisely.
The magazine was also feeding erratically at that time, so there were lots of jams and stoppages.
During the test I’m now doing for you, the magazine problems seem to have sorted themselves out and the mag now works flawlessly. I mounted a different 4-16x scope on the rifle, this one having thin crosshairs that enabled me to see things as small as 1/8″ at 50 yards. So, aiming was no longer a problem.
The day was perfect. Not a single breath of air moved, so shooting outdoors was like shooting inside.
H&N Baracuda
Sight-in took all of five shots, because the rifle was on target through a happy coincidence. The first five shots with H&N Baracudas after that looked very promising.
That was followed by a 10-shot group of Baracudas that measured 0.946 between the two widest centers. That’s very acceptable accuracy at 50 yards. It was also the largest group of 10 Baracudas I shot.
From this point on, I didn’t adjust the scope, so the other pellets will appear to move around the target a little, because they all shoot to a different aim point.
Crosman Premier 10.5-grain pellets
Crosman Premier 10.5-grain pellets gave the tightest group of the day. Ten went into a group measuring 0.541″ center-to-center. That’s on par with a custom-tuned Ruger 10-22 rifle shooting the best ammo. Please don’t confused the 10-shot groups with the 5-shot groups, which will be smaller and also less representative of the rifle’s true accuracy.
Air Arms 8.4-grain domes
Air Arms domes were not as good in the DynaMax. Ten of them went into a group measuring 1.192″ across the centers at 50 yards. They’re probably going way too fast for accuracy.
A final group of Baracudas
I was filling the DynaMax from a pump, plus I had other guns to test, so these 10-shot groups were taking time. However, I did shoot a final group of 10 Baracudas, just to see where things stood.
Gee… PCP's sure seem easy to shoot well. Seems like shooting one would turn into a dull and predictable endeavor. Shooting SPRINGERS, on the other hand – especially at long range – well, THAT'S full of suspense and excitement! You're never quite sure what's gonna happen!
Seriously, though – reviews like this start me thinking about taking the plunge. I think I've got about 40 springers now… am I due for a change of scenery?
Vince,
Most shooters start with springer and get to the point where you are now. Most of us are afraid of the incredible explosive power potential inside a PCP. That's something I'm going to address tomorrow.
But curiosity wins in the end and we take the plunge. My first PCP was a Daystate Huntsman that was already obsolete when I bought it. I would describe my introduction into PCPs as "old school."
Today you have the members of this blog to guide you, and you have guns that weren't dreamed of 10 years ago. In fact, the characteristics of the Benjamin Discovery (low pressure operation, light weight, low cost and so on) came from my memories of when I came into the PCP world
I know that you will take your time to ponder all of this, but I do feel that you will eventually come to the PCP world.
Imagine a CO2 rifle that's 25 percent more powerful and isn't affected by temperature. That's a PCP.
B.B.
B.B.
Who's 4-16x scope did you use?
Bub
Bub,
It was a Leapers. I decided not to mention it in the report because it really didn't matter to the outcome. Any scope with thin crosshairs would have done the same thing–even one from Gamo/BSA optics.
B.B.
Interesting to note the pellet performance against their ballistic coefficients:
0.021 AA Field
0.025 H&N Baracuda
0.026 Crosman Premier
The AA pellets may have been robbed of more velocity before they hit the target. And doesn't a light weight in PCP mean less energy transfer before it exits the barrel?
Just occurred to me…
Gamo is now producing what appears to be a very credible PCP… but they don't seem to market any long-range high-precision pellets to go with it. As far as I know the Gamo Hunter would have been the closest, and I kinda doubt that it would hold a candle to Premiers in this gun.
BB,
Nice blog. I'll probably end up taking the plunge to a PCP by this summer. But the photos of a couple of the groups raised a question that has been bugging me about my shooting – shifting POI.
I was wondering if you used the same relative POA between the three groups you show of Barracuda pellets (one a 5 shot, and two as 10 shot groups), or if you adjusted the scope between the first and second photos. While the groups look good, there appears to be a pretty good shift in average POI between the first photo and the second photo (the last photo matches the second quite well).
I'm asking because I get this often and am trying to understand it in my case. I can get OK 5 shot groups with my tuned Quest 800 (.4" ctc at 20 yards with FTS pellets), but the average poi of the groups "move around" quite a bit such that in aggregate, 5 groups may be 1.5" or more ctc in total. Using the first two photos as an example, if the POA in the first two photos was both the same, then the 15 shot total there looks like about 1.5" as well – similar to my situation, even if the cause is different (as in a potential scope change in your case).
Any thoughts?
Alan in MI
Vince,
I, too shot only springers for 25 years before trying a PCP. Yes, they are easier to shoot at long ranges since they are essentially recoilless. The downside is refilling. I don't mind hand pumping too much but it is an additional component (that is not cheap) and it takes a couple of minutes. I will not go through the expense of a tank and the nearest dive shop is fourty miles away.
The thing I like best about a springer is the relative simplicity. You can shoot for hours without taking a break to refill. I recently replaced the mainspring on my R1 and I was surprised at how easy it was to restore the gun to like-new velocity. I worry about how well my PCPs will work 25-40 years from now. They are more complex than springers, especially the repeaters.
A PCP is nice to shoot from time to time but springers will remain my favorite. Just my two cents.
Paul
Alan,
I adjusted the scope after the five-shot group of Baracudas. The two 10-shot groups were fired with the same scope setting and they go to the same POI. That they are larger is due to the fact that a 20-shot group will be larger than a 10-shot group.
I won't go into everything here, but it takes at least 30 shots to give a high degree of confidence that most future shots will land somewhere inside that group.
B.B.
Vince,
40 Springers? Forty?? Wow, the Imelda Marcos of Spring Piston guns! And I thought I was extravagant buying three. Where do you find the closet space? Which of these is your favorite? Which the worst?
I tend to agree with Paul though. Having grown up in a third world country I tend to think of things like long term survival in primitive conditions. 2012 and all that. Everybody seems to agree that a well kept springer will still enable dinner 40 years hence. A PCP might too, but what if your pump dies? The natural law of 'the fewer things that can go wrong the better' applies in this case.
From everything I've read though, and never daring to gainsay PCP Meister Wacky Wayne, if I were ever to get one, it would be the Air Arms S410. Right, Wayne?
AlanL
can anyone tell me the size of the air cylinder on a benjamin discovery and marauder.
CJr,
Yah, I know. When I started typing around 6:30 EST (5:30 blog time) B.B. hadn't posted the new blog yet. Must've been near simultaneous.
Yes, all the shots were at 10m except for the "pow" test with the Polymag at around 6 feet and about a dozen shots at 10 feet following Steps 1 and 2 of Tom's initial sighting-in instructions.
A lot of you guys have expressed surprise at the depth the shots were penetrating. If you're interested, this weekend I will take some photos of the trap and my wire depth test and post them somehow. The trap is too darn small. It forces me to be super careful. I wonder how I'll do at 25m. There is NO DANGER of a tight 5-shot group from me at ANY distance right now! But even if there were, one thing B.B. said that reassured me is that the pellets themselves form a flattened lead barrier and act much as the duct seal does. A win-win situation.
I'll also include a picture of the 54 with the reversed front sight to accommodate the 2" sunshade with lens cap on the scope, if you're interested.
-AlanL
Crosman customer service can tell you the internal size of their cylinder.
http://www.crosman.com
B.B.
Fred,
Thanks for the advice. I will follow it. Much better safe than sorry.
AlanL
Paul
I tried to express myself earlier regarding springers vs PCP, but the words wouldn't come out right, and I knew Kevin, Wayne, and Volvo would have a field day with me, so I just skipped it. You expressed my thoughts perfectly.
I have a Benjamin Discovery and a Marauder. I really like them both, but when they run out of gas they are useless. If your pump breaks, or you can't access scuba tanks, you are left with a very expensive club. I think of PCPs as comparable to a Vespa scooter. Lots of fun– until you run out of gas.
Springers on the other hand…
Keeping with the scooter analogy, a springer is more like a bicycle. You don't have to worry about gas, you ARE the gas. Simple, efficient, self-contained mechanical marvels. It's Beautiful in its simplicity, really. There's no being tethered to a pump or tank that won't fit in a rifle case. No running out of gas.
Accuracy is King however. If I could just somehow get my TX200 to shoot worse than my Marauder, then I might switch to the dark side. So far that hasn't happened. I prefer springers too. Good lookin out Paul.
AlanL,
Yes, by all means show us your pictures. What's the temperature where are you shooting? Is your target in direct sunlight? Your pugs sound too soft.
-Chuck
Anonymous cylinder size,
Instead of all of us hitting Crosman with the same questions 100 times why don't you find out for us and publish it on this site? That would be really appreciated.
-Chuck
Well, THIS morning it was bitterly cold for South Florida: 44°F. But yesterday when I started shooting it was in the 60's, unusually cool. The Gardner Bender pugs are definitely harder than the Ideal brand. I don't know about Iberville brand that Alan in Michigan mentioned. The target was mostly shaded. We'll see this Summer, when it gets to 94° in the shade.
-AlanL
Alan L
I am enjoying reading your experiences with your new airgun.
Regarding the weight of the 54: don't say we didn't warn you!
If you get tired of lifting weights, drag that Bronco out of the closet and have at 'er. After BBs review, and all of Wayne's gushing I let consumerism get the better of me and ordered one. It is superb. I highly recommend it.
BTW When you post the pictures of the 54, include one of you holding it. Its nice to put a face with a name. Unless you look like Tom Gaylord. Then names are OK.
BB: Only kidding, you handsome devil!
AlanL,
Re: Wow, 40 springers
Have you seen Franks gunroom? Scroll about 1/4 of the way down for the beginning of his pictures:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/405945/thread/1225122634/Last+of+the+Anschutz+Match+spring+piston+air+rifles
I occasionally share these photos with my wife. Usually right before another airgun acquisition.
There are some sobering photos on the internet of the remains of fingers by people that didn't keep a hand on their springer barrel or sidelever when they loaded a pellet. In the best case they broke bones, had stitches and lost a little feeling in their finger. Worse cases they lost the tip of their shooting finger.
kevin
AlanL, I've got a fair-sized basement with a little enclave dedicated to my gun activities. In there I've got (2) 3" wide cabinets stuffed and one smaller gun cabinet. And yes, I'm running out of room.
Just did an offhand count from memory and came up with 39 spring rifles – might not be remembering them all. Doesn't include a couple of Crosman 1077's, my wife's gun (Shadow 1000), or the guns I 'gave' to kids that are kept at my house. Also doesn't include BB guns, airsoft, or pistols.
Favorite? Yeah, right… lessee… for long-range shooting for accuracy – a Diana 52. For wacking the hell outa things my Diana 350. For long-range plinking a '94. To look at – Diana 46 Stutzen. For lightweight, moderate-range plinking – a Gamo Shadow or 44 or a Diana 26. Short range plinking? HW30, Diana 27, or '92.
Vince, Paul and AlanL,
I too was a springer and muti-pump shooter for 25 years, but took the plunge a couple of years ago. Absolutly no regretts. I still have a couple of springers and multi-pumpers, but they don't get shot near as much. However, it's comforting to know that, if my HPA pump fails, I can still shoot.
This Gamo DynaMax repeater is an interesting gun, but with its price point and features it's off my table.
Mr B.
Slinging Lead,
I'll be sure to wear my best Halloween mask. I wouldn't want to scare you guys with my normal face. Maybe I'll let one of my daughters hold the rifle instead!
Kevin, like I told Fred, I appreciate your advice. The sunshade's coming off and I'm going to back to holding the lever always. Thanks to all.
-AlanL
Bg Farmer,
From yesterday. You inspired me to attempt refinishing a rifle stock and also to give some affordable airguns a try. While I failed miserably on the stock, I have enjoyed most of the airguns. In fact, I have a replacement trigger coming Monday for one of them. I am just trying to return the favor.
As far as my daughter’s drivers test, we have a do over scheduled this Friday. I checked the line in Vegas and the odds are slightly better. I told her to hope for a male instructor this time and smile a lot, it is her best hope.
I am doing fine, although yesterday was a little disappointing. I drove white knuckled for an hour in a snow storm to attend a job fair that ended up having a very sad selection of employers. Half a dozen insurance companies, door to door sales, and the Border Patrol. I admit that the Border Patrol peaked my interest. Now geography was not my best subject, but I could not figure out who we are trying to keep out of Ohio. Could it be the Ohio State Michigan or the Browns Steelers rivalry? Or perhaps they would need me along the river to keep the West Virginians at bay? As far as I know, we have no ill will when it comes to Kentucky or Indiana.
I spoke with the recruiter and found out I am too old for the defense positions, but she did say they were looking for a maintenance director at the Cleveland office, although she wasn’t sure why since they rented the building and the owners performed the need repairs. She then whispered that she has learned to not ask, and that many positions are like that….
Marauder air tube volume is 215cc
Discovery is 135cc
Thanks Derrick for the air tube info! Much appreciated.
-Chuck
Kevin, I've heard of injuries from the sliding-cylinder type guns (usually chinese), but never from a breakbarrel. Have you actually seen injury reports from this type of springer?
Vince,
Not only have I heard of breakbarrel injuries, I have talked to one airgunner who lost the tip of his index finger in a beartrap accident.
B.B.
Volvo,
I gather that you are in the job market, in Ohio. What are you looking for? What is your skill set? What part of Ohio? I know a guy who might know of some openings in industry. Do you have any experience with vibration analysis or machinery alignment?
AlanL
I tried the calc program Kevin sent yesterday and had the following results for the Marauder:
CALC #1
Tank size? 80 cf
Tank Fill pressure? 3000 psi
Gun Fill pressure? 2500 psi
Gun Cylinder size? 215 cc
Gun Refill pressure? 1500 psi
Approximate fills – 26
CALC #2
Tank size? 80 cf
Tank Fill pressure? 3000 psi
Gun Fill pressure? 2500 psi
Gun Cylinder size? 215 cc
Gun Refill pressure? 1000 psi
Approximate fills – 17
The Gun Refill Pressure appears to be the amount of air I have to put back in the gun to bring it up to 2500 again.
At this time I don't know how many good shots are produced by each of the refills. I'll have to test that later but BB's Marauder review should give you a good estimate.
-Chuck
Sorry, I got that wrong!!!!!
The Gun Refill Pressure is the amount of air left in the gun before a refill.
AlanL,
Don't mean to speak for Volvo but he might be the right guy.
I know for a fact that prior to marriage Volvo was a "vibration analysis" specialist.
kevin
Vince,
Most of the pictures I've seen of finger injuries were caused by breakbarrels.
There was an old thread on the SS site that was all about airgun injuries. Unfortunately all the posts got wiped out with their recent hacker event.
kevin
B.B. and all……
I have to wonder about bear trap "accidents".
How many really were accidents caused directly by equipment failure, how many were caused by operator error, and how many were caused by a combination of equipment failure and operator error together.
We may never know because not too many people will be willing to admit to stupidity…particularly when there is the possibility of a good payoff from a law suit.
twotalon
twotalon,
Is that why you only have two talons… instead of three? :-))
-AlanL
AlanL
I chose the name because I have a Talon and a TSS….two Talons.
twotalon
twotalon,
They were all caused by operator error since they weren't holding the barrel/sidelever when reloading.
Don't think there's litigation that could be won, even with proven mechanical failure, since we're advised to hold the barrel/sidelver when loading. Operator error again.
kevin
twotalon,
I agree with you that there's got to be some operator error. I remember going to field target matches in Maryland and seeing one person repeatedly load his springer without restraining anything. In fact, Tom & I once saw him swing around while loading a pellet. He was distracted by a sound. He was in the sitting position. When he swung around, that baby was just a whisker away from being forced to slam close on his finger. It gives me the willies just thinking about it.
Edith
wv: dumych….What nerve!
Slinging Lead,
Hiding behind Paul will not spare you. “The downside is refilling” is an accurate statement. What he seems to have forgotten to list are all the downsides of a Springer. But wait, I can help since I too have owned close to 40 Springer’s, albeit not all at the same time. I also owned an R-1 for about 25 years.
Hold sensitivity. In the past I have likened this to the female species, hopefully this does not offend anyone. A Springer may want a firm hold or a gently touch or a combination of the two but will never tell you up front. Instead you spend hours guessing at what will please it the most. Then if you play the field, you need to remember each ones “needs”. A PCP is as sensitive as one of your drinking buddies, if it is there at all it does not show and is hidden deep down inside as it should be.
Good vibrations. Well, not so much. It is possible to extract 30+ ft lbs out of a PCP with no more effort than 6 ft lbs takes. I can tell you that cocking and shooting anything in that range in a Springer is about as pleasant as hearing a rubber glove snap behind you. My Patriot was the first adult airgun I ever sold.
Diversify your portfolio. Because of differences in weight, harshness, power and so on in the Springer world, it is easy to justify many rifles to fill your needs. This was my tiny initial collection; a .22 cal R-1 was the main hunter, an R-7 was for indoors, the .177 HW97K for long distance targets outdoors, and the .25 cal Patriot with a peep sight was the groundhog medicine. One correctly selected PCP does all this for lower cost including the hand pump expense. Plus spending more time with a single rifle has numerous benefits.
Other issues:
“I worry about how well my PCPs will work 25-40 years from now.”
Seriously? In 40 years my concerns are will I know my own name or need to wear Depends? God willing, I hope to be shooting some sweet gamma laser rifle even though the jet packs they told us about have never materialized.
“survival in primitive conditions”
If this is cause for concern, a Springer could certainly come in handy, but I would not put all my eggs in a single basket. I still keep two Springer’s along with my PCP, but I also have a fair mix of firearms. It won’t be much of standoff if you have an R-1
facing even a lowly 10/22.
A PCP should be on every shooters basket list.
Kevin
You misunderstood….
As an example….the action is not supposed to snap shut by itself. Something would have to let go to cause this. This would be a strictly material failure.
If the operator had the safety off and pulled the trigger (assuming no other "open breech safety") then it would be operator error.
If the "open breech safety " was broken and the operator pulled the trigger, then it would have been a combination material and operator cause.
twotalon
twotalon
As somebody that proudly takes their handle from the PCPs they own, and who is the recent owner of a fine German-made springer, I would be very interested in your take on the springer vs PCP debate. I'm not trying to draw battle lines, I just would like your opinion.
P.S. How are the peepers?
Slinging lead,
I just reread your post above “tried to express myself”. Now I feel bad. Is my assumption correct?
What great comments this morning!
Yes, unless you are only 5 years old today, there will be much greater things to worry about in 40 years from today than the life expectancy of your PCP… like your own life expectancy?
Spingers vs. PCP, the never-ending argument. Pretty much like arguing the pros & cons of a standard torque-wrench vs. an air driven torque wrench. Both do the same task and achieve the same end result but, one is MUCH easier for humans to use (no human torque required). Both are considered to have the same level of accuracy potential however… the manual torque wrench requires the human to manage the accuracy potential in various ways that aren't required by the air driven device (think artillery hold, spring torque, etc).
But, the air-driven wrench makes quite a racket compared to the manual wrench…right? Yes, but the manual wrench doesn't drive the fastener tight as quickly as the air-driven model (think springer lock time and recoil time etc)
Both are great tools in the hands of those who prefer their unique features and can operate them to their fullest potential for the job at hand.
Getting down from my soap-box now.
Brian in Idaho
Two Talon,
I think AlanL was trying to pull your leg, using the word "talon" as a substitute for finger as in talons used when discussing a raptor or someone's very unattractive hands or fingers (Like my dear, departed monther-in-law's hands).
Anyway, we've got a very interesting (IMHO) comment section going on over on the Blog that Josh Ungerer last did – How and When PA Got Started – Part 4. Seems this blog is also read in Russia and we have a very interesting shooter describing his situation.
I like reading what it's like in Russia these days and thought perhaps some of you might like to read it as well. His "handle" is "Duskwright". I've already asked him if he is familiar with Rocky the Flying Squirrel's arch enemies, Boris and Natasha, but he hasn't responded :).
Fred PRoNJ
ooh, ooh – wv – "devil"
Slinging Lead….
New eyes are great..I can see again. Will still need glasses with a bit different prescription than I have now. Still doing eye drops in the left eye.
PCP vs. springer…..
Well…I have pumpers, springers, co2 and pcp. For powder burners, I have rimfire, and muzzle loaders….sidelock, inline, and flint.
Obviously it is going to depend on what I want to do when I pick up a gun. Sticking with airguns..
Pcp is easiest to use for hunting. Little effort required until later when you fill up again. And a lot of power to dish out.Fewer hold problems in the heat of the moment.
Pcp or springer for plinking. either is better than a pumper, but a low powered springer is much easier than a high powered springer to cock and shoot.
The pcp is fun for plinking until refill time.
Then there is the question…do I want open sights or a scope? And what do I intend to shoot at??
There is no simple, clean cut answer to which I like best. Of course I also have some guns that suck for just about anything. Those get used the least.
twotalon
Kevin,
They were all caused by operator error since they weren't holding the barrel/sidelever when reloading.
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree on this blanket statement as well. I've had two incidents in the last year; one on a B3 underlever, and one on a Ruger AirHawk break-barrel.
The B3's sear released while I was in the process of returning the underlever back to it's resting place after cocking. The only thing that saved my had from a serious smarting was that I am always careful to return it using the flat of my hand and no fingers wrapped around the handle and that the lever was almost all of the way back home when the sear released. It still pinched, but no broken bones or torn skin, just a little smashing that didn't last long. That was definitely a mechanical failure on the gun's part, and I hesitate it assign blame to the operator (that'd be me!).
I had a different incident with my AirHawk just last weekend when out squirrel hunting with it. I was heading to my hunting area about 30 minutes before dawn (so pitch black) and warming the gun up by firing a few shots through it. On the third shot, I didn't notice that the barrel wasn't completely latched and pulled the trigger — hey, it was really dark in the woods. The barrel flopped up and down like a landed bass. So, yeah, that one was definitely operator error. On the bright side, I may have solved the barrel droop issues it has always had :-}
Just saying that it's not always cut and dry. The holding of the lever is an additional safety recommendation to limit the damage when/if the sear releases unexpectedly.
In honest I don't know why so many are so quick to feel that absolving the 'human element' from having to work at honing thier skills at something (whether it be an air-rifle or a torque wrench) is a good thing.
Personally I like the fact that, by practicing every single day…and making notes…and checking and rechecking my grip, stance, etc, I now am usually shooting in the top 2 or 3 on AirGun Arenas postal match with myh 'lowly' Gamo Compact…a gun worth 1/4 of most of the others being used.
It's like the manual transmission vs automatic. It's true that these advances (PCP, auto trans) level the playing field…meaning that 80% of the people can shoot/drive/photograph in a very competent manner (as opposed to, say 40% before).
But I'd rather be in that 20% who, through sweat, hard work and REALLY having to know how my tool (don't go thinking dirty thoughts…I'm talking gun/wrench/camera) works, can show a high level of competence.
Just my two cents.
CowBoyStar Dad
A few days ago I mentioned that I had ordered Martin Cardew's book, "From Trigger to Target", which Fred PRoNJ turned me on to. Martin just came back and okayed me to post his contact and ordering info. (The book's not available on PA's site, so here goes):
"Yes, these books are still available, if you are still interested please send me a Cheque for £25.00 Sterling, payable to G.V.C Publications to the following address:
Martin Cardew
1 The Blythe
Stowe-by-Chartley
Stafford
ST18 – 0LT
England.
Price includes P&P.
Any queries please e-mail me back."
Martin's email is:
mart_c62@hotmail.co.uk
By the way, I told him I could not easily obtain a check in British Pounds and he doesn't take PayPal, but he said he was fine with me sending him a check in US$ instead. GBP25 works out to about USD39 last I checked.
-AlanL
B.B.
I'm a fan of magazines, so this is interesting, and my recent range session makes me newly appreciative of these 50 yard groups. For all who didn't follow the statistics discussion of some time ago, some data indicates that your 5 shot group will be about .7 of a 10 group on average under the same conditions.
Edith, thanks for the story link. And who might the judges of this contest be? 🙂
AlanL, I'm not exactly sure about the mechanism for the 54 but if it's anything like the RWS 48, there is another option for loading. Load with your right hand and dip and twist your body a little so that your right elbow just blocks the lever. I do this mostly from offhand very easily but I believe it works from a benched position as well. Loading is all in one motion and very easy. It's one reason I like sidelevers.
Regarding springers, I'm a fan of them as much as the next, but I do believe that notions of using them in a survival situation out in the woods forever is not realistic. The spring will break at some point and replacing that is no easier than fixing a pcp, unless you know how to construct custom springs. You could use an IZH 61 which in my case has lasted over 60,000 shots, but you are not going to bring down anything worth eating.
Matt61
Ahhh Matt, but you're wrong 😉
Just for the heck of it I googled 'sparrow stew'.
Two quart pot.
Fill to half with water.
Dandelion leaves plus other assorted edibles you can find in the wild.
1 dozen sparrow breasts.
The author doesn't say how it tastes (and I ain't about to try it).
Get out that IZH61!!!
My list of best guns at a price point…
under $150
Bronco
Under $300
Bronco & Disco
Under $500
Used AAs400 bolt action
Marauder
Under $700
Used AAs410 or new AAs400
Under $1,000
New Air Arms S410 sidelever FAC walnut stock or Used Daystate CR97
Under $2,000
USFT new or used if the style fits you. or Air Arms EV2 if you can shoot 12fpe or used Daystate FT class
Of course you have to add scopes and fill systems to those prices..
just my humble opinion..
Wacky Wayne, Match Director, Ashland Air Rifle Range
Best all around firearm..
my Marlin 1894 "Cowboy Carbine" in .45 long colt..
Wacky Wayne
Matt61,
The list of judges is not publicly available.
Edith
Anonymous,
Yes, there's supposedly some great white hunter with a great knowledge of elephant anatomy who routinely shot them with a .22LR.
Firearms shooters, if you have a rifle that shoots .5 MOA how fast will that deteriorate in terms of number of shots? To put it another way, how many shots will it take to go down to 1 MOA? What will the rifle be shooting at the end of competitive barrel life of 6000 shots? What I'm getting at is when people spend fantastic amounts of money for super-accurate firearms, how long does their extra edge really last?
Shooters from Russia, that's great to hear that you guys are reading this blog. You folks make some outstanding airguns. I was fascinated to open the box of my IZH 61 and see the date of manufacture in Moscow.
Matt61
Volvo
Uncle! Dang, I said I have two PCPs already, what are you trying to do, kill me? And then Wayne tries to tempt me with that BSA lonestar. My portfolio is diversified already, although.. no 10m rifle yet hmmmm.
A patriot? For crying out loud, no wonder you prefer PCPs. I think I'd rather be kicked by a Clydesdale.
You didn't happen to mention how much you enjoy dragging around all your charging equipment;^)
P.S. I would rather hold my unpredictable female than any of my drinking buddies, but then your drinking buddies might be alot more attractive than mine!
Many of the cultures of the world hold pigeon in the highest of culinary regard….and they yeild plenty of meat.I've got an adventurous spirit when it comes to cooking.There is nothing in an ordinary market that I haven't learned to prepare…I make it an adventure when I buy groceries!So one day pigeon will inevitably be experimented with.It has to be better than Andrew Zimmerman eating assorted insects!!!!FYI,I am a different guy,not the Frank with 297 guns Kevin linked to…but I own a few…..
CowBoyStar Dad,
I am a fan of manual transmissions, but I still like PCP’s.
Honestly, I still shoot my Springer’s more because I shoot indoors the most. The big secret with a PCP to keep them challenging is to extend the range outdoors along with decreasing the size of the target. BAM. You are back at challenging again. that said, they are a wonderful all around tool.
Throwing modesty to the wind, I am actually pretty good with either platform.
My quest is simply to have every shooter try a PCP. I owe them that. Out of curiosity, what PCP do you own?
Volvo
Volvo, I do agree with you.
I may not have made myself completely clear. It's not that I'm a luddite who completely eshews modern technology.
What I disagree with is using it to let yourself become sloppy.
Part of this is in the marketing approach. I hate it when I see ad copy that says things like:
"with FWD/AWD you can drive like …." followed by a clip of a Honda Formula 1 car.
"you can take a pro photo just like this with XYZ digital camera"
That sort of thing.
I'm not against PCP's…but like you when I get one I will probably use it for the 'Quigley Down Under' shots.
CowBoyStar Dad
Frank B,
In the 1960s, a teenager was working in the local chain grocery store in the meat depart. This was in Orlando, and his job was to stock up the meat coolers before the store opened each day. Being a wise guy, he liked playing practical jokes…and almost always got away with them.
One day, he discovered a dead bird in the parking lot. As a joke, he took it to the meat dept., put it on a tray & sealed it in plastic. He put it in the meat cooler with the intention of playing a joke on his boss. As it happens, some little old lady picked up the bird, walked over to him and said, "Young man, this bird doesn't look very fresh." After a big gulp, he told her that she was right. He took it from her & said he'd try to find a fresher bird. A few minutes later, realizing that he just barely avoided getting fired (and violated a whole bunch of health codes), he came out empty-handed & told her that the bird was the last one & no others of that kind were available.
I have other stories about this same person, but few people believe them. Yet, I have it on good authority that all are true. Before you ask…the person who did this is not Tom. He's got his own stories to tell!
Edith
Yeah,
But ask me about the time we opened fire on a target cart on Table 8 (the moving target range) at Grafenwoehr while the German inspector/target operator was riding on it!
When I say "we" I mean 17 tanks firing inert 105mm tank rounds that go downrange at about 3,000 f.p.s. They have been known to kill tank crews who were hit by them by mistake.
B.B.
pcp vs. springers,
How about this? Springers will make you a better shot, pcps will allow you to hit the target more. Usually one thinks of these as the same, but in this case they appear to diverge.
Matt61
Matt61,
Re your 48: When you cock and load with the right hand and secure the lever with your elbow, do you bring the lever to the last detent before the dead zone and load the pellet, or do you pull the lever all the way through the dead zone to the final stop and then keep it there while you load? I tried the latter and it is impossible for me. The spring is too strong and the distance too great. Or, do you hold it on the way back, when it stops at the last detent again and then feed the pellet? I'm trying to figure out what your safest and smoothest routine is. If it works consistently and securely for me I might be able to leave that sunshade on…
How about doing a little video for us?
-AlanL
I hope that inspector had some real good laundry detergent BB!!! Edith,I feel safer sourcing my own food compared to some things I see at the local market…what kind of chicken needs to be injected with "chicken broth" to sufficiently taste like chicken!??I will gladly shop at places that cut my selection from a larger piece of my protien of the day!!
So, Miz Edith, teenager in the 60's huh? Hmmmm… your brother? Earlier boyfriend, before Tom?
:-))
-AlanL
AlanL,
Not a boyfriend & not my brother. This was a friend of a friend. My parents didn't let us get away with anything. My brother & I had the most boring upbringing you could ever imagine….Except for that time I attended an outdoor tent concert for Credence Clearwater Revival in the summer of 1971. I'll save that for another time 🙂
Edith
Anyone interested in a recipe for squirrel stew? I swear one of the Air gun books I bought by a UK author, has a recipe in it, along with rabbits and birds. Crow Kay pie anyone?
Slinging Lead, if you're interested, I understand there's a 10M rifle in Texas that may be had. Contact this fellow BB and see if he'll part with it. If you don't have his e-mail address, I'll find it for you. Another guy on this list, Wayne, would be glad to lend you some cash if you need it.
Fred PRoNJ
AlanL,
Sorry I didn’t back to you sooner, but I live in NE Ohio. As far as experience with “vibration analysis or machinery alignment” I have to say no, although I appreciate Kevin’s support. I am a sales slash manager type, which is what made the Building Maintenance recommendation so odd.
Volvo (or anyone else with an opinion). I don't own a PCP at the moment, and in truth the only one I've had any experience with (and I r-e-a-l-l-y like it) was the Air Force Condor.
My question…would this rifle be suitable to get into field target?
CowBoyStar Dad
Fred
Squirrel stew sounds good, but I have a problem with tree rats.
Some of them can cook up tender real fast, while others stay as tough as a steel belted radial. You can cook two tr's and have one turn into mush 3 hours before the other gets cooked enough that you can cut it with a chain saw.
twotalon
BB: Off Topic— Is the RWS 850 Magnum the same gun as the Hammerli 850 Magnum? Any differences?
Thanks
Hell, I'm sorry I brought this up. Guess I won't be having a big dinner tonight. I can spend more productive time repairing the snow blower (I hope it's just the drive belt broke on the power take-off to the augers).
a not very hungry
Fred PRoNJ
CBS Dad, I had the same question a short time ago. I suggest going to the Pyramyd AIR website and on the left side of the screen, click on Field Target. You'll get a list of recommended field target rifles. Unfortunately, the Air Force Condor is not a recommended rifle.
However, I do own an RWS 52 in .177. All I have to do now is train myself to hit the center of the bullseye every time. simple.
Fred PRoNJ
Fred
Don't sweat it.
The food, I mean.
Had to fix my snow blower yesterday. Got a rock in it, bent one auger, and ate the shear pin for that auger.
A little work with a pair of channel locks and a long 1/4" bolt got me going again.
By the way, try squirrel gravy and bisquits. Darn good.
twotalon
Very good information. There is nothing wrong with PCP's. For me, I still like the "Old School" guns.
Such as the RWS 52, Crosman 160, Sheridan "C" Model, and FWB 124.
The old manual that came with the Sheridan "C" said, "If you need more power, get out your .22 LR or .30-06." I still agree.
Mike
850 Magnum,
The only difference I know of is the name.
B.B.
CSD,
The Condor is not recommended for field target for two important reasons. First, it is way too powerful. A Condor would dent the field targets.
Second, it is too light. For field target you want some weight in the gun so it doesn't move around when you hold it on target.
B.B.
AlanL,
I had a look at the 54 (beautiful rifle), and externally, the mechanism looks identical to the B30 which I use which is a copy of the RWS 52. But it sounds like the mechanism works differently. I yank the lever back as far as it can go, and it locks. I had assumed that it is resting on the last bear trap teeth. Even when I released the anti-bear trap, the lever stays locked to the rear. B.B. explained to me that something in the trigger is holding it open. Anyway, there is no pressure with the lever fully opened. My elbow just blocks the lever without exerting any effort. Maybe someone who knows the 48 and 54 rifles can elaborate. I'm afraid that video is not really in the cards since I have no one to hold the camera.
Kevin, rc jets are not that far out of reach with electric motors. You can get an F-16 that goes 100 mph for a little over $100–not including some assembly and other parts. They are easier to fly than helicopters in terms of control surfaces, but the speed makes them challenging and unforgiving. They are one of the few rc toys that could get someone killed. Financially, they're within reach, though. Not sure if B.B. is the throttle jockey type.
Matt61
I was always a springer fanatic, until I recieved a PCP as a gift. (I do have one CO2 rifle, but shooting it never impressed me).
After a few weeks with the PCP, I was hooked and it's all I shoot. They take more set-up time, more maintenance, and the shooting sessions are always shorter, but I find it a requires a completely different skill, (much like when I shot rimfire competitively), and requires a different type of mental focus.
Trying to eek that last millimeter of accuracy out of a PCP is a completely different challenge.
I don't think PCP shooters have compromised any skill development or given up anything "to the gun", its just different skills.
regards,
Jane Hansen
ps: To whomever asked about target barrel accuracy / durability, you're right. It does erode over time. I generally saw after about 3 years of practice and competition, (maybe 20,000rounds), my scores would start dropping. Of course, that could be purely psychological – maybe I was just eying a new rifle by then…
Volvo,
I appreciate it — I haven't written off PCP's, just can't seem to get as excited about them as I was at one point. Inertia, mostly, but it saves me from the rapid pulse and high blood pressure I'm sure will occur once I try a PCP and start needing one or two:). I'm happy right now with my springers, .22's and ML'er in the backyard, but I promise I'll try a PCP someday soon.
I know the job hunt can be tough. I also know, however, that talented and personable people like you are always miraculously hired even in the worst of times. I'm actually more worried about the effects of a teen age driver on your mental and physical health. At least its a girl — my dad only made it through training three boys before he required a massive bypass — don't know if there was any correlation or not. Of course, if I remember correctly, even though girls are usually safer drivers, their daddies still have a lot to keep them up nights:).
Matt,
I think you're wrong about the survival benefits of a springer. A couple of tins of pellets and one spring would last a good long time hunting rabbits and squirrels. Most would have more pellets and a backup spring as well. I also think that anyone with a chance of survival in that situation would be able to figure out spring replacement and/or even repair if it came to it. After a while, pellets would become very scarce, but could be melted after recovery and turned into balls, which would be at least more accurate than throwing rocks. So, see, now you've gone and gotten me excited about the possibilities:).
Edith….
We have 3 new additions to the herd.
It seems that our blue point himilayan and a small female tiger did a bad thing. We now have 3 white kittens.
No telling what they will look like, as himilayans are always born white and change color over time.
Just what we needed.
twotalon
AlanL (I think),
One thing I remember noticing about the 54 from pictures is that it seems to have a much larger stock than the 48. In my experience, too long a pull length, especially, can make even a marginally heavy rifle intolerable, because you can't get the weight properly supported by the off hand. Just thought I would mention that.
Mr B.,
Great news that you're on board for a DIFTA match! It'll be great to meet you in person. Now, since I'm a stone cold rookie myself, having shot just two matches this Fall, big grain of salt on any FT wisdom I might dispense! I'm hoping Wayne will chime in with some sage advice that we can all use.
If you're the not-so-competitive type like me, you just grab your favorite rifle (optics suggested), maybe wear pants that you don't mind getting dirty (assuming you decide to shoot in the seated position) and show up at the match. When the match is done, you glance at the scores and marvel at how far above zero yours is. I think of it as a nice, challenging plinking session among some interesting folks.
If you're more the cutthroat type, you grab your favorite $2000 rifle with $1000 optics, shooting jacket, harness, "bum bag", weighed pellets, etc., etc. (in this case, I hear Edith Gaylord owns a USFT she wouldn't mind parting with). When the match is done, you inspect the scores and handwring about the shots you missed (but still decide you had a good time).
I've been using my .22 Disco at the matches: an easy choice as it's my only "nice" airgun, and I'm pretty sure it's plenty of rifle for my shooting skills. Now, from what I've read, the Disco in .22 is maybe just a hair over the 20 FPE limit for FT matches. So far, Joe the DIFTA match director has been very welcoming and hasn't hassled me about it. Still, I've been meaning to ask the Blog about options for getting the Disco under 20 FPE. Failing some Mac-1 or TKO tuneup, I'm even considering shooting on CO2 when the weather permits.
I've only learned one pearl of FT logistical wisdom so far, and that is to find a handy way to tote your pellets. My first time out, I was just lugging a tin of JSBs around, fumbling with the lid, probably soiling the pellets with dirt and leaves. The next time out, I brought a Crosman Ammo Pouch. Wearing it on your belt is no good for the seated position, but hanging it over your shoulder or neck with a lanyard works well for me. I think I even saw a photo of Wacky Wayne himself with just such a setup.
Oh, one other piece of learned wisdom from the veteran of two whole FT matches… I was originally imagining that I would shoot in the "hunter class." I figured the seated position seemed uncomfortable, and the hunter class allows you to sit on a five-gallon drum and brace your rifle with a bipod, shooting sticks, etc. In practice, teamed with folks shooting hunter class, I find that lugging the bucket and shooting sticks around, and getting them all set up when it's time to shoot, is kind of a hassle. For my money, if I didn't want to shoot seated, I would just shoot the match offhand. That way, nothing to lug but your rifle, and you can even wear your nice pants (and everybody thinks you're macho and/or nuts)!
-Jan
BB,
Someone on the Yellow made a really good suggestion today. They suggested that the time might be right for Crosman to come out with a modern, shrouded MSP. You seem to have Crosman's ear these days and it would be Great if you could pass the information along.
David Enoch
Mr B.,
You're right – I should really get some TKO goodies for my Disco. Mine is bone stock at the moment. I betcha I would do a zillion times more indoor shooting with that brake.
How much of an adventure was installing the TKO trigger kit? I'm not sure I've ever drilled and tapped anything, and I've got very few tools, e.g. I don't even have a proper vice! Should I be intimidated?
And one more oddball question… When I'm outdoors, I kinda enjoy the natural loudness of the Disco. Is the TKO brake install easy enough that it could be swapped in and out for the factory muzzle weight now and then?
Oh, and did you DIY the fill-cap trim or have TKO do it?
Thanks,
Jan
That Frank is one sick dude…..
That picture made me feel like a kid in a candy store!
/Dave
WV: botrali- A new Italian opera star?
GenghisJan,
the TKO brake is a slip on. You do have to remove the front sight, however. The trigger kit is very simple. The needed drill and tap are typically sold as a kit at Home Depot or Loews. You do have to buy a tap holder, however. It's just a T handle wrench that's not very expensive – couple of bucks. Two of the holes in the trigger assembly are already cast and it's just a matter of running the tap through them. The third hole you need to drill and no vice is needed. I did it on my desk. Just make sure you have the drill level and follow Mike T's instructions. It's WELL worth the effort.
Fred PRoNJ
Jan,
A sage I'm not, a newbie I am too!
A blog Tom did about starting a field target club about a year ago, got be interested in the game..
I think I was the only guy who said I'd come across country to a class Tom and the gang would run.. not enough registered, but anyway I started a club/business and learned the game from Rick Knowles, from Washington state.
He is the North West dir./coordinator of about 5 clubs now, and wanted to establish a club where they, and the California clubs could meet more often and shoot it out!
BTW, the first annual "Oak Alley Memorial Day Shootout" will happen this year, here in Ashland Oregon.
All three days, will be pistol, benchrest, and field target contests, as part of the "Grand Prix" AAFTA tour. …pretty cool huh?
..but I digress as usual..
let's see,"Wacky Wayne the sage" I'm not"..
I've shot in only two serious matches here, (one the Oregon state match with only 6 or 8 Oregon competitors, all newbies! (Hardly can call me champ in that situation!) and two matches in Washington, I did get 3rd there, (paper says "second" placer) weird way to say it huh? .. digressing again 🙂 then..
I went to the Nationals, I think I was 8th out of 10 in international no harness class with a 92/120.
Then I shot about 50% at the Cal State championship in international class. .. I'm going downhill fast. I was still getting my scope holdover setting figured out.. but poopy, it's very easy to slip backwards if you change the slightest thing..
I did the traveling to learn how to be a match director and meet everyone I could in person, after meeting them in the forum…
I'd love to be at least a little competitive.. but it's not very important.. I'm having way too much fun to care about much else.
I have said that I rate the value of a gun on accuracy, quality of build, resale value and how it fits when one is in a comfortable position… be it sitting or standing.. some asked about durability..
My Air Arms S410 sidelever FAC .177 must have over 30,000 shots on it… IT'S NEVER HAD THE BARREL CLEANED. The other day I let our new member Ed, try it out for a week. He reports, it gives consistent 10 shot 5/8" groups at 50 yards, sometimes 1/2", sometimes 1".. never over 1".. and he is not weighing pellets.
I ordered him one in .22 cal.. He just reported it's doing almost as good with 18gr JSB. even got a 10 shot 1" at 100 yards! Sounds like Kevin's .22 cal AAs410..
BTW I shot one day at the nationals with a guy who shot the course off hand standing. I think he scored about 60%! The crazy thing was the shots he missed, most often the easy ones, 3/4"/20yards .. after he knocked down the 1" at 40yards!
He was shooting a Daystate Harrier.
That Harrier was just like the one I had in the car, that I had traded Tom out of the day he took the photo you speak of..
My well groomed self, trusty Volvo, USFT#44 and that crosman pellet pouch on the hand woven cloth belt my daughter gave me… on the way to the nationals..
Newbie Wacky Wayne,Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
Gosh, I'm still drooling after the Frank's photo. Gosh.
Wayne,
I am still nervous after buying my walnut-stocked AA s410 xtra FAC sidelever early in January. There were many options out there, and it wasn't cheap. Please tell me I did right.
BTW, I just have the AA and my Fwb 124. I hope I can survive only with them. Have you used the 124 for FT? Can you recommend it?
Anthony
I don't get the whole PCP vs. springer thing, but I have to admit I don't have a PCP yet – but I want one . . . I do have all the others.
I tend to look at it more like beer, wine, and spirits – I'd hate to have to pick just one, and even worse, just one flavor/brand of one! I like having the ability to go with whatever best fits where I want my mood to go . . . .
Of course, if only the airgun choices had as little financial impact as the bottles do. But then again, my single malt collection alone might put me well down the path of that PCP . . . . hmmmmm
Alan in MI
Anthony,
Your set! The Air Arms s410 is just as accurate as my USFT.. at least in my hands.
You can use a single shot tray, but it's not easy in either the Marauder or AAs410.. Most MDs will let you remove the mag and advance it by hand and replace it.. getting around the single shot rule.
You might need a field target stock with a knee stand eventually… and someday, maybe..
The AA s400MPRFT $900ish is better than a poor mans' AA EV2 $1,700ish. They are way closer than the $800 price difference.
Jan,
By the way, great description of the game! … just know I'm learning here with most of ya'll.
Maybe, I've tasted a few more than some in a short time..
Wacky Wayne, Match Director, Ashland Air Rifle Range
Anthony,
No, I haven't tasted the FWB 124, so I can't say, but I've not noticed it used much if at all in field target by the regulars…
But.. the AAs410.. is the one to make you competitive now!
Just tape the power adjuster at 19fpe or down to 12fpe if you choose international class (at least at a serious match, cause over 20fpe can knock over a target with a face hit instead of a kill zone paddle hit)…
Just get started being comfortable in the sitting position… without a harness if possible. and shoot 200 shots a day if possible. The sidelever & 10 shot mag makes practice fast and easy!
Wacky Wayne
David,
I had to go to the Yellow to find out what an MSP was. You mean a multi-pump pneumatic?
This would have to be a completely new development, as the current 392 platform does not lend itself to such modifications. Would Crosman be willing to spend all that money for a potentially small return?
Such a gun might conceivably be a $500 proposition, and how many shooters who are not in the know would be willing to make such an investment?
While the idea sounds interesting now, the moment it is built people on the forums will start criticizing it by saying, "If only they had left off the pump, this would be a fine PCP." That's exactly what everybody said about the Daystate Sportsman Mark II, which was a multi-pump that looked like a PCP.
When Daystate made the Sportsman several years ago, they had difficulty selling 100 of them. Of course they don't advertise and their distribution channels are small, but Crosman wouldn't be able to sell a $500 multi pump to Dick's, either.
So someone needs to figure how such a venture would work. The 300-500 active posters on the Yellow are not a large enough market for a mainline development project of this magnitude. Crosman has to believe that there would be many thousands of sales before committing to the development of an entirely new airgun.
A PCP is relatively simple compared to a multi-pump that needs a pump unit built in. That's why it is so important to build onto an existing platform. Making one or even ten of anything is easy compared to setting up to build a thousand. Just ask Tim McMurray how easy it is to produce airguns in quantity. He has struggled hard and long with the USFT and he is still building them in the low hundreds.
I would enjoy the rifle you suggest, as I'm sure many of our blog readers would, but until these difficult questions can be answered I'm afraid it's still in the blue-sky stage.
B.B.
two talon,
Yes, well, non-neutered cats will do that from time to time.
Three new people for you to hook on catnip!
B.B.
A question on BB's only blowback pistols that can mount a laser. Which one do you think has the best trigger? I know they are not too accurate but just for the fun factor but also how would they rank in accuracy too. I'm not a good shot anyway so it would just be for can shooting in the back yard etc.
Steve
For FUN Factor it's hard to beat a PPK. But that 'not too accurate' comment is, well, sorta right on the money.
The CP99 Compact (/blog/2006/11/walther-cp99-compact-part-2/)
or the Crosman PRO77
(/blog/2006/11/crosman-pro77-part-2/)
will probably yield more joy.
Of course, the Desert Eagle blowback pellet pistol seems to take the cake for accuracy:
/blog/2006/6/desert-eagle-first-impressions-part-2/