When Savage made a folded-metal gun

by B.B. Pelletier

Update on Tom/B.B.: Tom’s feeling better and his spirits are quite high. He had several liters of fluid eliminated from his abdomen. Turns out there was no fluid in his lungs, however the fluid in his abdomen was pressing on his lungs and made it difficult for him to breathe. His belly still looks a bit distended to me, but that might be due to having a very long needle poked into him at various angles. Tom said it was pretty painful, but he’d do it all over again if he had to.

Today’s blog originally appeared in the September 1998 issue of The Airgun Letter.


A toy gun made like a BB gun. The Savage ball-shooter must have been a young boy’s delight!

It was before World War II, when the economy was recovering from the Great Depression, that Savage Arms Company of Utica, New York, offered a toy ball-shooting long gun with a pump action.

Airgunner Alan Johnson told us he’d been a Savage employee but had never heard of this toy gun. He told us that Savage had moved their plant from Utica to Massachusetts after the war, which was the first indication that the gun was made before the war.

I first encountered one of these in 1994 at the big antique/flea market in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. I remember thinking at the time how much the gun resembled the Remington model 26 BB gun in everything except size. The Savage is just 30-1/2″ long and weighs 36 oz.; the Remington is one of the largest and heaviest of all folded-metal BB guns ever made.

The dealer who had that gun was asking what seemed like an exorbitant amount for a gun in roughly the same condition as the one pictured here–$350, as I recall. The high price put me on the lookout for another example; but until I found this one, I never saw another.


The original paper sticker has survived on our gun all these years later.


The Savage name is all over my gun. The right side of the receiver has both name and company logo in raised letters.


At Little Rock, Richard Schmidt had this beautiful example on his table.

After I purchased this one, though, I saw another at the 1998 Little Rock Airgun Expo on the table of collector Richard Schmidt. His was in almost-new condition, obviously having never been played with. Mine is rougher, showing lots of use but no real abuse. The one thing both these examples have in common is the original Savage paper sticker on the right side of the butt. The one I saw at Carlisle had no sticker.


This ad by Abercrombie & Fitch is for the Savage toy gun, which they call a Fox. Note construction of the foam “shot retaining target” at right.

Jim Buskirk, who publishes the Toy Gun Collectors of America newsletter, sent me a package of info that included an Abercrombie & Fitch ad for this exact gun. That ad said the gun was sold both as Savage and as Fox. The ad refers to the gun as the Fox model 31, although the drawing in the ad itself clearly shows the Savage name on the side of the receiver. It also says the gun is designed to shoot red wooden balls that are 3/8″ in diameter, and the power is supplied by the mainspring alone. They go out of their way to make the distinction that this is not an airgun–perhaps to soothe parents who might think that it is based on the general size and construction. The price was $3.00–not altogether different from what a low-end BB gun would cost in that era.

I bought a package of 3/8″ balls based on this information, hoping to chronograph the gun. But the balls I got are slightly too big for the barrel. So, I’ll estimate the velocity at around 50 f.p.s., based on the norm for straight catapult guns that use a coiled mainspring. I could be off a bit on the low side, but the range of the gun is given as 10-12 feet, so it isn’t much faster than that.


To load the gun: Place the butt on the ground, pull out the spring-loaded magazine follower and drop the balls into the hole (arrow).

The gun is loaded through a round cutout in the bottom of the magazine tube, about midway up the barrel. In fact, what appears to be the barrel of the gun actually houses both the mainspring and the true barrel, which is only half as long as it looks.


Savage was real big on the safety of their cocking mechanism.

The slide handle must be held firmly forward in order for the trigger to release, just like on the Remington model 26. Even as old as this gun is, the safety device works perfectly–probably having been better designed than the rest of the gun.

Buskirk also sent the summer 1992 issue of his newsletter, which has a reprint of an ad for a cork shooter that looks very similar, though not identical, to our subject gun. It’s grouped with another toy gun from Fox–the famous double barrel that takes spring-loaded shells that shoot wooden “bullets.” The implication is that the pump gun is also a Fox. It differs in shape somewhat from the one I have, plus it holds only 5 balls; and they’re cork instead of wood, but it might very well be a version of my pump gun. They were sold for $2.93 by Montgomery Ward & Co.

Both ads include a target with the gun. The Abercrombie & Fitch ad has what looks like a foam target face, and they refer to it as a “shot retaining target,” so I assume the foam would part to hold the ball by friction. It seems to be divided into small “fingers” to do just that.

Buskirk added in his letter that he felt Savage might not have been the actual manufacturer of the gun. He based that on the fact that Savage, as a firearms manufacturer, would not necessarily have the experience or tooling to work with folded metal.

What he says makes sense, but the top of the gun is stamped with the following: SAVAGE PLAY RIFLE MANUFACTURED BY SAVAGE ARMS CORPORATION, UTICA, NY. PATENT APPLIED FOR. If they didn’t make it themselves, why word it that way?

As far as I know, Savage, Smith & Wesson, Winchester, Johnson, Remington and possibly Sharps are all American firearms manufacturers who have made toy guns or airguns at one time. When I include Winchester, I don’t mean the German Diana models they imported in the ’60s and ’70s. I refer to the two beautiful prototype BB guns that are in Mike Burleson’s collection.

Did other U.S. firearms makers ever make airguns? Perhaps the blog readers might like to contribute to a search of the literature to help answer this question. We know that Daisy, Sheridan and Quackenbush made firearms. Were there others? Time will tell.

Thanks to Alan Johnson and Jim Buskirk for their contributions to this story.


This gun once belonged to “R.M.,” who carved his initials on the left pistol grip.

70 thoughts on “When Savage made a folded-metal gun

  1. Edith,

    Great to know the liquid is removed. Tom sure is a gutsy man. Would not mind being poked with a big needle again ? Hats off to you Tom.

    Manish
    Mumbai
    India


  2. Hi Edith and BB.
    It's good to hear BBs spirits are up but bad that the poor fella is having to go through so much pain.
    Being prepared to go through the whole thing again though.
    That is one tough dude.
    All the very best to you both.
    DaveUK





  3. Fred,

    No, he's not allowed to get out of bed. He's still on high levels of antibiotics. Just like when you're sick with the flu or a bad head cold, they advise you to get as much rest as possible. This infection is much larger and more insidious, so they don't want him going anywhere just yet.

    Edith




  4. I'm glad to hear Tom is feeling better.

    My Marauder seems to shoot more accurately when I use the single shot tray vs. the 10 round magazine. Has anyone else found the same results to be true?
    -Jeff


  5. Posted this last night/early morning. Thought maybe some had missed it so reposting it. I really feel it fits this blog.

    I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow.
    Woodrow Wilson

    Sounded fitting for this blog site. We use what we know, and gather other information from various experts here.

    Good night or Good morning as the case may be.

    rikib


  6. Manish,

    I know what you meant to say. I was just pulling your leg. It was a nice pun!!

    Is airgunning a popular sport in India? Are there any regulations?
    What is your favorite air gun? Do you go out into the country to shoot or stay in the city? Do you mostly shoot at stationary targets or live game?

    I've never been to India but have always had a vivid imagination about it from all I have read or seen. Perhaps some day I will have the privilege to visit India in person.

    -AlanL


  7. rikib:
    I had a look on the PA site at pellets.
    The Prometheus pellets I get in Britain are more like the 'Skenco Hyper velocity' than the 'RWS Hypers'.
    The RWS version has a longer body and a hole in the rear of the pellet.
    The reviews for the Skenco's are a bit more favourable than the RWS pellets.
    Overall though mixed reviews on both.
    You either love them or hate them depending on the rifle it appears.
    DaveUK


  8. I'm going to get a snake gun as soon as Uncle Sam gives me my money. Looking at a Taurus Judge Night Court and a Bond arms Snake Slayer. I know the Judge will give me 5 rnds vs 2. At about $80-100 price increase on gunbroker. The thing is would I not be able to take down a snake with 2 410 buckshots and save on the additional cost? The snake slayer seems easier to carry around the yard.
    Most "Judge" models come standard with a 2-1/2" chamber (hard to find shells) but from what I've seen the "Night Court" version is a 3" chamber, which is what the Bond Arms provides. I was considering a Mossberg 500 Cruiser 410, but it would more cumbersome to carry around the yard.
    rikib


  9. Jeff,

    I don't think your experience is uncommon. There's a reason repeaters aren't used for target shooting such as field target & 10-meter. Repeaters are not as accurate as single-shots. I'm assuming that since the repeating mechanism offers just a little bit of variance (since everything man-made has variances), the pellets are not being seated anywhere close to the same way as they're seated when loaded singly.

    Edith


  10. Hi Edith,
    I am wondering if the magazines spring presure may cause a minor deformity in the pellets before they are seated. I'm shooting with JSB's and some of the magazine holes are also slightly snug as well.

    -Jeff


  11. Jeff,

    You may be right. I'd be interested to hear if other Marauder owners have noticeable accuracy differences between the clip and the single-shot loading tray.

    Edith


  12. donkeyscrump,

    I've been intrigued by your sign-in name since I first saw it.

    Is it donkey scrump, or donkeys crump, or something else entirely?

    And just what is a donkeyscrump?

    Your posts from the other side of the pond offer a great perspective.

    Keep them coming.

    jw11



  13. jw11:
    Thank you sir.
    I can assure you the feeling is mutual.
    I love reading what you fellas are up to in the USA as well.

    Donkeys Crump is a nickname I had from school.
    Two of our little mob at school had animal surnames.
    Parrot and Sparrowhawk.
    we all were thus alloted an animal name for a joke, and mine was Donkey.
    Being a little slower on the uptake compared to the others.

    The 'Crump' refers to when we were up in the roofspace of the school messing around and I put my foot through the ceiling.
    It sounded like 'Keruump'as I fell through up to my croch.
    Lucky for me neither the teacher or the pupils in the class below recognised my leg or shoe which was dangling above them.
    We made our escape undiscovered.
    I was however dreading an impromptu ID parade like they had in the film 'Porkys'though :)
    Slinging lead:
    Nothing on ebay but I am looking at doing a couple of carboot sales.
    I will keep the good stuff back for you mate lol
    DaveUK


  14. Edith
    Now that makes me wonder about the accuracy between revolver 45/410's and double barrel 45/410's. From what I have read the double barrels are more accurate than the revolver (maybe it is true), even though they have 3 fewer rnds.
    rikib


  15. If it's a Savage it must be good.

    Duskwight, water in a political brawl can be effective and even entertaining. There was a video some time ago about a political interview in Romania gone bad. A man and a woman were arguing in heated tones. Suddenly something was said, and the woman couldn't contain herself. So, she reached over and pushes the guy's glass of water over right into his lap. Yeow. He's enormous–about the size of the Ukrainian president. Without missing a beat, he picks up her water glass and whamo, dashes the water right in her face. She sat there not sure what to do.

    ajvenom, are you from Tennessee? I was talking to a schoolteacher in Indiana who did a stint in Tennessee, and she said that what the parents took pride in was whether their kid could beat up your kid. No offense to Tennessee. I just got a terrific gun from there about which you will all hear shortly.

    Brian, thanks for the report on the M14. The fact is that I think the M-16 is sexy too and I wish I could like it. But even now, with all the improvements, problems keep cropping up. The piston systems make the gun run cooler and cleaner but may stress out parts of the gun that was not designed for a piston. Also, there's something wrong with the magazine design, so you are never sure which magazines will work. One suspects that there is something deeply wrong with the design. After all the bandaids applied to the design, they seem to have something that works adequately, but overall, I don't see significant advantages over the M14 design now chugging along in its seventh decade. God bless you for your service. Being a Marine in wartime is really something.

    Here's a word to the wise about watching your zero. I was secretly having doubts about my IZH 61. Groups did not compare to my B30. I would get a couple good shots then a flier way high. Since I've never had a problem with a changing zero, I attributed the problem to flinching and muzzle flip from the light weight. But I finally got serious about correcting the zero and found that I was 5 MOA high. Apparently, my subconscious was correcting for the problem in the split second of follow through and yanking me down. Now the IZH 61 is shooting better than ever. Never count this gun out.

    Matt61


  16. Edith,
    Very glad to hear Tom is doing so much better. He and you are still in my prayers.

    The upside for us readers is getting these old reviews. They are quite enjoyable. Though is will be good to get Tom back in the harness and offering reviews of new airguns.

    DB


  17. To All:

    Anyone own and/or shot any of the latest models of the Evanix rifles?

    Any comments, reviews etc?

    They seem like a bargain as compared to the Euro guns but, there is always reasons behind retail pricing. (quality, durability, accuracy, "unique" or proprietary features that are troublesome?)

    Thanks

    Brian in Idaho


  18. Gang,
    Still saving for my next PCP to upgrade from my Discovery. Was thinking Marauder.

    But… now looking at the Evanix Rainstorm and Evanix AR6/AR4 shrouded. Price is not really a lot more than the Marauder and both offer about the same features.

    Any thoughts on the Evanix guns?

    To me the Evanix seems to have a nicer stock. Based on the photo anyway.

    Going to the St. Louis AirGun Show May 15th and am hoping to find some to pick up and inspect. Might even take one home.

    DB


  19. Brian,
    I have exactly the same question. Viewing it as an alternate to the Marauder.

    Though Marauder being USA built is a hard to ignore feature… for me anyway.

    DB


  20. DB,

    I can attest to the beauty of the Evanix stocks. However, we don't have a Rainstorm or Windy City here. Wacky Wayne has a Rainstorm, I believe. Maybe he can tell you how the stock compares to other guns.

    Edith


  21. DB,

    By coincidence, Pyramyd sent out an email blast today advertising the Evanix AR6 PCP, with a good looking stock, for $699.99. What caught my attention was the claim that it delivers 60 ft-lbs of energy in .22 cal, without indicating with what pellet. However, the claim is impressive since it states a muzzle velocity of 1200 fps, which works out to a pellet weight of about 18.9 grains, not one of those plastic flyweights. So this should be a very respectable rifle, if it actually shoots straight. Of course, it is a PCP…

    :-
    -AlanL


  22. Re: Marauder magazine

    I have four .22 magazines and I shoot Crosman Premiers 14.5g boxed, and on every one of them the pellet drops all the way into the hole un-aided except for holes 6, 7, 8 and 9. On those I have to gently nudge them to fall all the way in. I don't know how this correlates to the corresponding shot. I'll have to pay attention next time.

    I don't have a single shot tray but now I guess I must get one.

    rikib,
    I say go with the most accurate snake shooter. I would think that even with two shot gun you would still have plenty of time to reload for two more before the snake could wrap around you and swallow you whole. However, once inside you may not have enough room to maneuver to reload, so learn to reload quickly.

    -Chuck




  23. Matt 61

    Concerning Izh-61. In fact, its barrel can do even more :) PCP-ized Izh-60/61 are sometimes good enough to make half-inch groups @ 50 m, sometimes even with the stock crown. If crowning is done bad, correct re-crowning always gives Izh a huge leap forward in accuracy. Another problem with it is that channel between cylinder and barrel can be made too rough on the barrel side, so it can scatch or even deform the bullet.
    A bit of polishing can give you another increase in accuracy. And finding a "sweet spot" with the ramrod length can give you yet another leap in speed (flatter trajectory) and accuracy :)

    duskwight




  24. Chuck
    Thanks for the info. I've also found the "Night Court" version on gunbroker for about $470 that has the 3" chamber. I emailed a local FFL now I need to give him a phone call. Just trying to decided if I want to take a chance with a revolver jamming or just go with a double barrel derringer. I just wish I could find a dealer around here that had the guns so I could get a feel.
    rikib



  25. rikib,
    No, I don't own Taurus stock…I'm just helping a friend…but maybe since revolver sales are going through the roof I should get some.

    I have not seen a Night Court. Make sure it's a 3" chamber and not just a 3" barrel.

    -Chuck


  26. Chuck
    the Night Court's I've only seen on gunbroker and all are listed as 3" chambers and 3" barrels as opposed to most other "judge" models that are listed as 2.5" chambers. I'll definitely confirm with seller before bid. It seems that 2.5" shells are not easy to come by.
    rikib


  27. Marauder vs. New Evanix guns

    Been reading first hand reviews from a few owners of the new Evanix guns. I don't own any Evanix guns.

    When you sift out the hype and buzz there's several things that these reviews have in common.

    The new evanix guns are much more powerful than the marauder. There are several obvious differences because of this power difference. First the evanix guns are much. much louder, the evanix guns burn through air much faster (lower shot count) and at highest setting the evanix is shooting too fast for supreme accuracy. Many owners are turning the power down for target shooting and turning it back up for hunting.

    The finish on the guns is much more refined than the marauders. That's all I can remember for now.

    kevin


  28. Re: Marauder magazines

    Marauder magazines are notorious for inconsistency in pellet loading. This usually leads to crushed waists and/or skirts on the pellets which generally affects accuracy. For these reasons Greg Davis takes the factory magazines apart and machines a few parts as part of his infamous Marauder tunes. The results of his Marauder gun and magazine tunes are nothing short of amazing.

    kevin


  29. Wayne,

    I just read your “Oak Alley” announcement. Man, that sounds like a heck of a good time! Feeling a bit bummed to be on the opposite end of the country. Hmm, Google has it at 1 day, 22 hrs – 2919 miles. Kevin, can I borrow your Pantera?

    -Jan


  30. Hi long time lurker here. Glad to hear that BB is getting better. Hopefully he'll be out of the hospital soon.

    A quick question for y'all. I'm looking for a cheap accurate rifle as I want to start doing some target shooting. Messing around between 10m, Field Target and silhouette shooting ( I know it's all over the place, but I have a large back yard and a place in doors to shoot 10m as well). I'm thinking of a Daisy 953 or a Air Venturi Bronco. Which would ye recommend?

    I know that the Bronco has issues with target sights fitting properly. But it seems like an accurate rifle, probably more accurate than I am right now. And I have access to dremels and would carving tools.

    While the 953 is also accurate and more easily fitted for open sights, the trigger isn't meant to be as good. And I don't want to have to fiddle with it's trigger as I know I will mess it up.

    Any and all advice is welcome. Thanks



  31. Kevin,

    How about a Greg Davis Marauder with his full tune verses a stock Air Arms S410? I think the price would be about the same for each gun. My brain is flipping back and forth between the two, while my wallet says ONLY ONE. What's a guy to do?

    Mr B.


  32. Mr B.
    I can relate in a way about flipping back and forth between two guns. I myself am torn between a Taurus Judge and a Bond Arms Snake Slayer. Judge being about $100 more but 5 rnds compared to 2. Snake Slayer reviews though beat out the Judge in accuracy. Like you said "What's a guy to do?".
    rikib


  33. Mr. B.,

    I shot a gd tuned Marauder several weeks ago. Only had 50 yards to shoot but it was head to head in accuracy with my aa s410's. in stock form the marauder is quieter than the shrouded aa s410's. With my mods my aa s410's are as quiet. The aftermarket air arms magazines are smoother and accommodate bigger pellets (kodiaks for example) better than the marauder magazines even after gd works his magic. This is nitpicking the gd magazines since they work fine they're just harder to load and not as smooth.

    I don't own a marauder for several reasons:

    1-The stock doesn't fit me well. Feels like a 2 x 4 in my hands and the raised cheek seems an afterthought. The aa s410 thumbhole stocks fit me like a glove.

    2-The finish on the metal and wood on the marauder are very average.

    3-I don't want to wait 3 months for a tuner to "wring out" the potential in the marauder.

    4-Resale prices on marauders has plummeted since many owners have guns with problems and don't want to spend money on a tuner combined with deep discounts from retailers. I don't know where the bottom of this market is.

    5-Marauder lacks easy power adjustment.

    These are the primary reasons in my mind that "out of the box" the marauder is much less money. You could get lucky and get a marauder without any of the many reported problems in which case you've hit a home run. These also happen to be the reasons that I think an Air Arms S410 SIDELEVER rifle is a bargain.

    Hope this answers your questions.

    kevin


  34. OK, with the great news about Tom, I can put my mind to the review I've been holding back..

    Evanix vs Marauder.

    Evanix Blizzard: About 34fpe in .22 cal. It’s offered in a thumb hole as well as sport stock. The Thumb hole stock I had was very well picked wood and polished to a beautiful finish. I’m sure it’s mostly hand done with the low cost of labor over there.

    It fit like a dream. In my mind the stock alone is worth the price of the Marauder. I said “price”. I’m not putting down the marauder, except the stock is really junk compared to the stock on the Blizzard, AR6, or Rainstorm.

    The AR6 might be a great hunter, but like Kevin said “forget it for target unless you want to tune it down”. My early version was very loud and too fast to be very accurate. It tumbled the heaviest of pellets showing sideways patterns on the paper at 30, 50, 75, and 100 yards. But those tumbled groups were 3” at 100 yards, which is not too bad, for a hunting gun. And, the thumb cocking is a blast to experience!

    I placed my order for the Evanix Rainstorm a month ago. One of our members, Ed Markey, bought it from me before it arrived.

    I knew he could test it sooner and more completely than I, so I relented. Ed has also bought a Marauder in .177 & .22 cal and an Air Arms S410 in .22 cal from me, so he is the perfect guy to compare for us. He is retired and use to shoot bench rest .22 rim fire a lot. He knows how to get the most out of a gun be it springer, PCP or powder burner. He has done them all.

    When we unpacked the Rainstorm, we noticed how well protected it came, nice foam lined box, inside a much larger box. Thank you PA. A great job as usual. Right off, Ed says, beautiful stock! Smooth side lever, great balance offhand, wonderful sized carbine! It must be like 6 lbs! (real close guess!)

    I set up the crony and we filled it the first time to 2,500#, all that was in the handy tank, and what we guessed would be the center of the shot curve anyway. With (18.15 gr., average weight), JSB .22cal, it shot 973fps, 981, 978, 969, 972, 977, 968, 982, 983, & 979. The average was 976.2 feet per second for 38.31 foot lbs.

    Ed was going to check it on a higher fill level. That’s not a lot higher than the Blizzard, but really just right for a best accuracy and power combo.

    Three days later Ed reports back on the Evanix Rainstorm and the Remington Nitro gas ram power house break barrel, (later on that). He had to adjust the trigger down, like he does on all the guns. This one adjusts nicely down to about 2 lbs or less, he reports.

    The soft metal magazine has sharp corners that he plans to soften as he studies how it moves. The side lever is spring loaded and pops open on its own, which is very nice. It cocks smoothly, again, much nicer than the bolt action on the Marauder. The Marauder magazine has no sharp edges, but can be a pain to fill until you get the hang of it.

    Groups:
    Well, it’s a short story. Accuracy is about the same with all the guns Ed has tested, Evanix Rainstorm, ( I tested the Blizzard and AR6), AAs410 .177 & .22, Marauders .177 & .22, (after some work on the shrouds, triggers and power adjusters). Which is a plus on the Marauders’ side, like B.B. said, it’s a very adjustable gun. More adjustable that the Evanix line.

    At times, with no wind, from a rest, and after work on all the guns triggers, barrels, shrouds and breeches, Ed has gotten ½” at 50 yards with 5 shots and un-weighed pellets. He has also gotten 5/8” with 3 and 4 shots at 100 yards with average 1” to 1/1/4” on 10 shot groups. What more could anyone ask?

    Bottom line, Target Marauder, but plan on a custom stock. Hunting, Evanix, unless you can move up to an Air Arms S410.. but I'm not sure it's that much of a move up for the price increase. The power adjuster and side lever on the AA is still the best…. but for the money, and loss of power to the Evanix line.. I don't know.. You pick:-)

    Wacky Wayne,
    Match Director,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


  35. Issus,

    You might look at the Air Force Edge. It's legal as a 10m sporter and might qualify under ISSF rules as a precision rifle if you want to compete that way. Then you can swap barrels and setups and turn it into a gun for FT. Don't know about silhouette.

    Alternatively, any of the excellent used FWB SSP or CO2 guns that show up on the Web from time to time will do you proud, and probably for about the same price.


  36. Kevin,

    Thanks for the answer to Mr B.’s s410 v. Marauder question. I’ve been wondering similar things myself. Did you catch the recent Yellow thread on power adjustability? One or two folks knocked the AA adjuster knob as being not-so-repeatable. Any opinion on that? Do you fiddle with the knob much? I’ve been coveting that knob ever since you and Wayne convinced me to start an s410 fund. I’ve been imagining using it in three positions: flat out for varmints, just under 20 fpe for FT, and way down low for high-shot-count plinking (oh, and maybe a 12 fpe setting for when I become more Wacky about FT). Is this pure fantasy, or something a guy might achieve with that little knob? The flat-out and plinking settings seem easy enough, and Shirley there must be some way to mark one or two middle settings and return the gun there with some precision?

    Wayne, how did you work your s410 power settings for FT?

    Thanks,
    Jan


  37. I think that the reason I would buy the Marauder over any of its competitors is the fact that it can be fixed by the factory here in the United States. Crossman customer service is very good. Everything eventually brakes, some things sooner and some things later. Crossman has been in business for a long time,and should be a major player for many years to come. These other Asian Manufactures are typicially here today and gone tomorrow. I'll bet that twenty years from now they will still be able to repair my gun.
    -Jeff


  38. Kevin,

    Thank you very much. I had forgotten about the Marauder stock which looks like a club to my eyes and I truly don't like even a little bit the ambi stock with those ugly cheek pieces on both sides.

    A follow up question, if you have the time, what size animal would you be comfortable hunting with the S410 in what caliber?

    Thanks,
    Mr B.



  39. Issus,
    To cover all your bases you need more power than what either of the rifles you mention can offer. If you had to spend more, and you do, what is your limit?

    Kevin,
    Any chance you have shot your Cyclone past 50 yards yet? I know the look is not exactly your cup of tea, but curious how it will compare to the S410 where the rubber meets the road.

    From yesterday,
    If you really want to get that cow bird, enlist the help of a buddy with a cow suit. Such a suitable decoy is sure to pull that guy or gal down to a safe shooting level.

    Matt61,
    Pulled out the Single Six last night and did some quick draw with CB longs. Rather a sad sight as I can barely get the belt buckled on the last notch, which is similar in performance to my target results. FYI, if you really need low power there is aguila colibri that is rated at 375 fps for a 20 grain slug.


  40. rikib,

    I'll give you one more very simple and very inexpensive way to dispatch those scally slithers. I want you to picture in your mind's eye a young boy goat herder. Notice that 5 foot stick he's carying in his right hand–it's his snake killer-cobra, puff alder, whatever that threatens his herd.

    Now I don't know what kind of snakes you're dealing with, but maybe the Killer Stick is the way to go.

    Mr B.


  41. Jan,
    Based on what you describe, you may want to see what Kevin has to say about his FX Cyclone. The rifle offers three distinct and repeatable power settings.


  42. Jan,

    Yes I read that recent thread on power adjustability. It was started by the forum owner, Steve.

    I think he made a good case for power adjustment, AS LONG AS THE ADJUSTMENT IS REPEATABLE.

    He has owned several Air Arms guns with the power adjuster and stated that it wasn't repeatable. I disagree. There is a feature on the late model air arms guns that many owners don't know about since it's not in the manual. A locking screw on the underside of the action that is only accessible by taking the stock off.

    Not only does adjustment on this locking screw allow you to temporarily lock the power wherever you choose, but by adjusting this screw just short of "lock" it makes the power wheel much stiffer and more likely to stay where you set it externally.

    Steve admitted that his power adjuster had become very loose on his aa s410's and the slightest bump would set it off. I don't believe this is a repeatibility problem in setting velocity but a setting that had been allowed to become to loose (out of adjustment).

    Bottom Line: For precise work (like FT) you can LOCK the power. For informal work the "rheostat" that is the power adjustment on the later models give you an R7, R8, R9, R10, HW77, Hw97, AApe, Beeman Kodiak, Theoben Evo, etc. in one gun.

    kevin


  43. Mr. B.,

    Initially the aa s410 was a better replacement for a springer to eliminate richardsons ground squirrels from my property out to 120 yards. Needless to say it did the job much better than the 54.

    The only other pest that I have are raccoons. Never bought the gun for this task since I've previously shot these big, tough beasts with a shotgun. The problem was that I woke up everyone in the house. Last year I started shooting the raccoons with the AA S410 and nobody wakes up. These are shots within 15 yards (garbage cans) and with their tough skulls wouldn't consider anything further with the AA S410

    I only hunt with .22 caliber.

    kevin


  44. Volvo,

    I've only had a chance to shoot the cyclone to 50 yards. It hates the jsb 15.9 but loves the 18.1.

    I did mount the burris timberline and like the package and you said I would. Lightweight, agile.

    I'll be honest with you and confess that I bought the gun just to experience and had no intention of keeping the gun. Now that I've shot it a little I'm going to test it for shot count, power and accuracy at 100 yards and have a feeling that it will eliminate my AA S410 carbine with the classic tube installed since it initially appears that the shot counts are similar but the nod goes to the cyclone for weight and length.

    Accuracy will be the deciding factor.

    When the weather cooperates we'll see.

    kevin


  45. Jan,

    What Volvo said about the cyclone (and all FX guns with the power adjuster) is correct. Repeatibility in power setting is very reliable since there are only 3 settings and they're very positive.

    The unlimited power settings, like the Air Arms, is attractive but without adjusting the resistance into your adjuster it can be tough to repeat. However, the analogy of the air arms is a benjamin that can be filled with one-eight pumps and that power range flexibility is very attractive to me.

    kevin



  46. I have shot a raccoon in the head that was at my trash barrels with a Discovery, which I later sold to get the Marauder. One shot between the eyes was all that was needed for the acoon to go into convulsions for a minute or two and then die. The shot was taken at around 20 feet out a window. I also use the Burris Timberline 4x-14x on my Marauder and highly recommend it.
    -Jeff (First 100 Marauder Owner)



  47. Kevin,
    No worries that you were not planning on a long term relationship with the FX. If you were, I suspect a walnut stock version would better suit your tastes. At any rate, I’d guess you recall my posts on the yellow when I was trying decide on the Cyclone or S410, and for my needs I think I made the right choice. That said I still would like to hear how they compare at longer ranges from someone with your expertise.

    Pellet wise, the Crosman Accupels ruled at the ranges I shot at, but they are no longer made so I used them very sparingly and greedily hung on to the last of my stash.

    In the end, just like with pizza personal preference will weigh in, but I’m still chomping at the bit to hear your judgment.


  48. Volvo
    I read this last night while looking up pellets, thought you might be interested.

    "Now sold under the new name of Premier Ultra Magnum. Exactly the same pellet as Crosman Accupell. Made by Crossman. Weight is the same, Just new tin and packing…"

    rikib


  49. Volvo,

    I remember your queries about the cyclone and 410 well on the yellow.

    I remember a guest blog by by you on your first pcp with the bling bling as well.

    Here's my confession to you. I'm a firearms guy from way back and like many evolved into fine wood and good bluing. Nonetheless, my roots are firmly embedded.

    I still have the eastern arms (sears roebuck) 16 gauge complete with plastic stock that I started carrying when I was 10 or 11 in the field for upland. I still have the remington 700 that I took on my first big game hunt when I was 14.

    I appreciate and enjoy fine finishes but can't shake my roots.

    Either a gun fits or it doesn't. The cyclone fits. It's very reminiscent of the remington 700 that I haven't shot in probably 30 years but that memory is still fresh.

    I started shopping for a long range scope for the cyclone but stopped. If the cyclone can perform at range then the aa s410 carbine will be sold and the bushnell will ride the cyclone. As I said earlier the cyclone has the edge so far.

    I don't have accupels but found it interesting that at even 20 yards this gun hates 15.9 gr. jsb's. It shot premiers, h & n's, and many others fine at these distances. The jsb 18.1's outperformed at short and long distances but we'll see at 100+ yards.

    Planning on going to my home in the mountains next weekend (not this weekend) and hope to have weather and time to do some long distance shooting up at that elevation.

    kevin


  50. I can't say these are quotes, maybe just things I remember hearing.

    There is nothing so bad; that good will not eventually come from it

    I was born dumb enough, I don't need to go around drinking something that will make me dumber.

    rikib


  51. Hi.

    Firstly I'd like to wish Tom a speedy recovery, and follow up on his comments on the Blue Streak and other multi pumps.

    Has anyone ever tried putting a bigger air tube on something like a 2100? I'm wondering if a tube with double the diameter, and therefore 4 times the volume would give you a gun that shot full power on 3 pumps. I know that the pumping will be harder, but a lot of those guns were designed to be pumped by kids, so there must be a happy medium between pumping difficulty and number of pumps. On that subject, does anyone know the kind of pressures reached in front of the pump cup / inside the valve on the Crosman multi pumps?

    Not sure if I'm in the right place for those, please let me know.

    profcomp


  52. profcomp

    If you increase the volume of the air tube, it will require more pumps, not less, to get up to the air pressure needed for a shot of given power. The cocking force would remain approximately equal at the end I think, but the extra pumps needed to get the larger chamber up to pressure would add to the amount of effort required.


  53. profcomp,
    Thanks for participating in the blog. You have an interesting question and you may be on the right place to ask it, it's hard to say. But, please don't stop asking hard questions just because you don't get a answer.

    I saw that you asked this question once before and didn't receive an answer. If you don't get an answer it's not because we are ignoring you, it's most likely because no one knows the answer. We love to answer questions if we know the answer. The other side of the "no answer" coin would be 10,000 readers replying "I don't know" which would flood the blog :-)

    Thanks for joining us and I hope you ask more questions and get some answers. That's why we're all here.

    -Chuck


  54. Thanks for all the answers. Unfortunately I don't have that much money atm. I wish I could afford the Edge. It looks like a sweet gun. I keep thinking of saving for it, but life always gets in the way…

    As my price range is only around $150, I may just get the 953.


  55. Matt61 – I live in Minnesota…land of ten thousand black eyes. Don't get me wrong…we're really nice…we'll fight one minute then take you out for a beer afterwards.


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