by B.B. Pelletier
Photos and testing by Earl “Mac” McDonald
Today, we’ll look at the accuracy of the Diana 75, and I’m going to tell you right now that it’s something to behold! Mac is a dedicated mini-sniper — the sport in which you use 10-meter rifles to shoot at small reactive targets like empty cartridge cases from long distances. Mac has done it from 50 yards, shooting offhand with his favorite FWB 300 target rifle. But he’d forgotten how very nice this Diana 75 is until this test forced him to rediscover it.
The test was conducted outdoors in calm weather. First, I asked Mac to shoot groups at 10 meters, because this is a 10-meter rifle, after all. But then he moved out to 25 yards and shot the same pellets.
He shot off a rest and rested the forearm on the palm of his off hand, which was rested on a sandbag for support. Because there are so many groups, I relaxed the 10-shot requirement, so what you will see is the result of 5 shots.
Oh, and Mac asked me to stress the following. All shooting was done using the target sights. No scopes were used.
Testing at 10 meters
RWS Meisterkugeln pellets used to be the best target pellets RWS offered. But, today, they’re one step down from the R10 Match pellets. Nevertheless, they’ll often be extremely accurate in your airguns. Mac shot the lighter version of this pellet that’s recommended for pistols. Mac got a 5-shot group measuring 0.25″ between centers, but he didn’t forward the photo.
Next, he shot H&N Finale Match rifle pellets. The 75 seemed to like these and grouped 5 of them in 0.19″.
H&N Finale Match. Five in 0.19″ at 10 meters.
RWS Hobbys were next, and Mac surprised himself. After correcting a canting problem, he grouped 5 into a 0.12″ group!
Look what five Hobbys can do at 10 meters. Twelve hundredths of an inch is pretty impressive!
Next, Mac departed from the world of target pellets and tried some JSB Exact 8.4-grain domes. While you can’t use them in a match, they are perfectly fine for sports like mini-sniping or just general plinking.
Not quite up to target ammo standards, this is still a good group of JSB Exact 8.4-grain domes. Five went into 0.34″.
Mac ended the ten-meter session with his favorite RWS Superdomes. And they performed very well, grouping five into 0.16″.
RWS Superdomes were right in there with target pellets. No wonder Mac likes them. Five in 0.16″.
Move back to 25 yards
Once the 10-meter targets were finished, Mac moved back to 25 yards and tested the same pellets, again. As before, the groups are 5 shots.
The first pellet tested was the RWS Meisterkugeln. This time, Mac sent the photo. And, the Meister seemed to perform the same at 25 yards as it did at 10 meters — sort of near the bottom of the pack.
RWS Meisterkugeln gave a group of 0.67″ for 5 at 25 yards. While it’s an okay group for some rifles, it’s below par for the 75.
H&N Finale Match target pellets were next. At 25 yards, they gave a pleasing group of just over a half-inch for 5.
Five H&N Finale Match went into this 0.53″ group at 25 yards.
The RWS Hobbys came next, and they were still screaming at 25 yards. Apparently, the tight group at 10 meters wasn’t just a fluke. At 25 yards, 5 went into a tight group measuring just over a quarter-inch.
Mac says he called the lone flier of RWS Hobbys in this group that measures 0.26″ for the 4 tight ones.
JSB Exact domes followed the Hobbys and they gave a group of exactly a half-inch.
A half-inch group of JSB Exact domes.
The final pellet tested at 25 yards was the RWS Superdome. They performed well, though Mac claims another called flier. But 4 of them went into 0.30″.
Five Superdomes. Four went into 0.30″ and Mac called one flier.
Well, that completes the report on the 75. It’s quite the plinker, as hundreds of proud owners can attest. Mac, who has always been partial to the FWB 300, was surprised that he didn’t remember what a great shooter he had in this rifle.Just a month ago, it was being offered for sale at Roanoke. He may have to rethink that one!
BB,
Wow, that is the kind of accuracy you drool over! Just out of curiosity, how much does that rifle weigh? I really want a target rifle bad, but can’t handle much more than 8.5 pounds because of arthritis bad in my shoulder, hands and wrists.
pcp4me,
A Diana 75 weighs around 11 lbs unscoped. Mac’s gun will weigh a little more since it’s full house (has butt spacers, accessory rail, etc.).
kevin
It would be nice (if possible)to make a comparison between Diana 75 and Slavia 631 (after all they are both competition 10m rifles)-i am amazed with D75 accuracy but i am also curious. BTW.- B.B. glad to hear that you are doing better 🙂 !
There is one basic problem with comparing one rifle to another….
You are comparing one INDIVIDUAL rifle to another INDIVIDUAL rifle.
That is where you get into problems….no two are perfectly identical in the first place.
You could take 10 rifles with consecutive serial numbers and find that they are all at least a little different from each other. Some times a whole lot different. You would need a large enough sample size to determine what you could expect on the average.
Then you would have to determine how the average rifle of one kind compares to the average rifle of another kind.
twotalon
Well said Twotalon, and even if you could gather enough guns of each type, you would want to have a design of experiments to control the tests and eliminate the variables that are external to the guns.
Then, if you were satisfied with the comparative results, you might want to run the the testing a 2nd or 3rd time to begin validating the differences between components within the guns! (e.g. rifling twist per inch, depth of grooves, etc etc) All fun stuff but time consuming!
I’ll check back in around Nov 2012 and see how the tests are going!
Ok bad choice of words -i would simply like to see how 631 would perform on some blog in the future ,you guys are right about everything- you cant compare rifles but you can in two separate blogs 😉 it would be nice to do when B.B. get completely well 🙂
I’m not so sure on this one.
Admittedly the barrel (accuracy) of my 630 is darned good.
Ergonomically it is most definitely a sporter (as is the 631).
In a ‘real’ competition, offhand standing (not benched) it would suffer. Even when I compare it to my Avanti 853c…balance, weight and handling means I cannot get the consistency (in a string of 40 shots) that I can get with the Avanti.
Off the bench it would be close however.
CBSD i am no expert for this one but Slavia 631 is competition air rifle here .Off i go to sleep! 🙂
Milan…on CZ’s website the 630/31/34 are all described as sporters.
They are darned accurate little shooters…but definitely not considered competition guns.
I use to compete with Slavia 631 and Crvena Zastava but that was a long ago and it wasn’t too serious so i dunno!Perhaps you are wright but 40 shots in a string is achivable with this gun but there is always human factor -about ergonomy Slavia 631 have better”feel” and grip becouse of stock but 634 is sweeter shooter maybe becouse of extra punch but also becouse there is no cocking noise nor twang and the fact that it is accurate with almost any pellet i use with only mechanical sights so competition rifle or not i would take and outshoot any diana any time 😉 🙂 -last part is largely based on my huge ego and can’t be used like proven fact 🙂 😉
Stunning accuracy. I’ve always wondered how these 10m rifles do at longer distances. No I know . . .
Off topic question on the impact of pellet choice and longevity of spring guns. I have a nice shooting Quest 800 tuned with Macari parts, and my best pellet so far has been the Beeman FTS / H&N Field Target Trophy. With these I get just under 700 fps, for about 15.5 ft lbs. My best 20 yard group 5 shot has been just under a half inch, but I rarely get that consistently.
In searching for something that might work better, I ordered a bunch of JSB 14.3 grain pellets (I have tied the 15.9 and 18.1 grain pellets with poor results). I was hoping that with the 5.52 head size, they would share the tight breech fit/high energy characteristics of the FTS, but they don’t – they fit very loosely for some reason. So the first thing I did was fire a few over my Chrony and was disappointed with the result – only about 610 fps for about 11.9 ft lbs of energy. If I flare the skirt I get a better seal, and I pick up 80 fps and get back to 15 ft lbs, but the accuracy was poor when I shot these, probably due to the variability I induced with my inaccurate flaring job..
So I tried a bunch of the pellets straight from the tin (unflared) in offhand shooting, and was surprised at the accuracy results. They seem to be very accurate, although about 1.5 low and to the left of the FTS POI. I’ll need to try them from the bench to see what these can really do in this gun.. I don’t know that I will want to give up the energy either from a pest elimination standpoint
But this leads to a question – would shooting a pellet that “misses” 25% of the peak energy form the firing cycle cause premature wear on the gun’s spring and piston? I know it is no where near as bad as dry firing, but it seems that things will be slamming home harder inside the gun with these pellets, although the firing cycle seems the same. I also know that that all pellets will result in different amounts of energy extracted from a gun, but this pellet is far and away the least efficient one I have tried, from an energy standpoint.
Any thoughts?
Alan in MI
Alan in MI
I don’t think that any of the piston/spring device is “slamming home harder” but, it is likely moving faster under less resistance from different/lighter, or looser fitting pellets. At some point (different for every gun, even same model gun) an extremely light pellet or object or an extremely small diameter pellet (would fall through barrel) could allow enough speed and loss of resistance to the air pressure to potentially damage the innards.
Unless you feel the gun acting as if dry firing (supersonic crack and metallic noise), I doubt there is or will be any harm.
As an example, I will put 3 felt cleaning pellets in my HW97 breech before firing/cleaning the bore, for the very reasons we are discussing here. If I use a little oil on the felt pellets, it creates a small crack or report when fired. That is from the speed/heat inside the barrel that ignites or diesels. The piston and seals are not affected. Conversely, using only 1 felt pellet could certainly cause some damage in a powerful springer. Note enough resistance and only slightly less damaging than dry firing.
Brian in Idaho,
Am I reading correctly? You’re stacking 3 cleaning pellets coated in “oil” in the bore of your HW97 and then firing them for cleaning?
If so, I think if B.B. was here he would advise against that.
kevin
Kevin,
Ok so how DO you clean a gun you cant get a cleaning rod OR a bore snake in from the breech?
Cause I also spray foaming bore cleaner down the bore, allow it to soak about 10 min than stack 2 or 3 lubed cleaning pellets and fire those stacks till they come out clean. Then I put ballistol on 2 or 3 more and shoot them followed by several series of 2 or 3 dry cleaning pellets till the bore don’t show any excess oil. I REALLY REALLY try to avoid cleaning any gun from the muzzle!
Also does any one know if some company makes a true 10 M target rifle that weighs in under 8.5 pounds dressed and ready to compete?
Only one I can think of is the TF 79 TH or an AR2078 but these are not “true target guns” However they advertise accuracy of .06″ ctc which is all Walter promises from their guns. I see some guns advertised at .02″ ctc that are very expensive. Either way I am not able to shoot off hand those kind of groups.
So I am thinking about getting a Mike Melik tuned AR2078 and being satisfied with that till I can wring it’s full accuracy potential from it off hand. Which might not be in my lifetime.
Daisy Avanti 753 is a light target rifle. The factory trigger is NOT a target trigger by any stretch, but there are modifications for that, which can get it close. The 753 comes with a Lothar-Walther barrel. At 25 ft in my basement, my 753 is easily as accurate and consistent as my Diana 66 and my Anschutz 250. Not as sexy, but the hole in the paper doesn’t lie.
True story: I bought my 753 at the Findlay show a couple years ago. As I was carrying it out to the car, another gentleman remarked to me “I hate those damn Daisies.” Naturally, I was curious as to the reason for his opinion. He told me he competes regularly at the club level, using a $600 German target rifle, and “those damn Daisies beat me every week.”
PCP4Me,
Clean it from the muzzle, using a guide if that makes you feel better. It isn’t a daily occurrence, or shouldn’t be, just be careful and do it when its necessary only. I used to worry about this myself until I started shooting a muzzleloader. After approx. 1000 shots (many with swabbing between them) and probably 70 full cleanings to date (and they are more intense than air rifle cleanings), I can’t see, feel, or otherwise detect any wear on the the crown; in fact after a couple hundred balls, I had to smooth the crown a bit because it was still sharp from manufacturing and wouldn’t let me load as tight a patch and ball as I wanted without tearing. Granted, air rifle barrel is probably a bit softer, but I can’t see the few strokes necessary every great while accounting for much wear.
I’m afraid the above may be a controversial remark, but its my opinion based on the cited evidence. You can also use some string device that pushed through from the breech, but unless you want to clean all the time, which you probably should not do, it seems a little prissy, and I’ve seen Yellow Forum blowups over that technique as well.
BG Farmer: Your advice to PCP 4me is spot on as I have found the same thing is true with my muzzle loaders and other guns that cannot possibly be cleaned from the breech. Some food for thought: In his book “Mister Rifleman” Townsend Whelen tells of a Winchester High Wall which he was about to re-barrel. He deliberately took a rat-tail file to the muzzle to see what effect it had on accuracy. He found that the accuracy stayed the same ,but the point of impact changed. I would really like to know just how the forum jockey’s remove stuck pellets from a barrel without a good rod . You would really have to be working at it to destroy any barrel with a proper cleaning rod. The often mentioned weed wacker line pull through will do more damage in the wrong hands than a good cleaning rod. I’ve mentioned this before, but folks that are serious about their shooting and guns, shouldn’t be buying their gun cleaning supplies in the lawn and garden section of the local Wally world, take care ,Robert.
pcp4me,
I’m with you. I prefer to clean from the breech but when I can’t I don’t hesitate to clean from the barrel. Many suggest crown savers and soda straws to sleeve the barrel to protect the crown from a rod wearing or gouging the side of the crown. I’ve used them but don’t think they’re necessary if you’re careful. I carefully use a dewey rod (graphite) with a bronze brush loaded with JB Bore paste ala B.B. Pelletier. I don’t use bore scrubber and wouldn’t use bore scrubber on an airgun because I think the solvents could potentially harm seals.
I follow with patches until clean. Last patch I use FP 10 or krytech. I think ballistol would be fine but would follow a patch of ballistol with a clean patch to leave a very thin layer of ballistol.
The only exception to this was a marauder barrel that I did recently for a friend. Even after the JB Bore paste treatment his barrel shoot crappy. I got out the cleaning rod and brush again but this time we used mothers mag. Finally got that gun to group at 50 yards.
In my opinion and limited experience “a true 10 M target rifle that weighs in under 8.5 pounds dressed and ready to compete” doesn’t exist. You can buy some very accurate guns that are marketed for 10 meter shooting but a “true 10 M target rifle” weighs well over 8.5 lbs to help stablize the gun for accuracy in competition. Even the mini’s and Jr. versions weigh over 8.5 lbs. so I can’t help with this one. Sorry.
kevin
For a light 10 meter comp gun try the T200 from AA. Made by CZ. I have the Avanti version and am VERY happy with the accuracy. Will stack 5 in a hole about .030 bigger than a single pellet diameter and that WAY exceeds my offhand ability. Might also look at the AA S400MPR. It is light too.
Gary,
Welcome to the blog.
The T200 by CZ is a great little CO2 rifle that they modified to use air. Actually, it was U.S. field target shooters who first modified the gun. CZ read about their success and tried it themselves
Thanks,
B.B.
Thanks to everyone who answered my question on TX 200 maintenance yesterday. I am ordering recommended kit today. I will keep an eye on that spring and I might even buy the replacement spring just in case.
Thanks!
Tunnel,
Good deal.
Just remember the heavy tar on the spring is like salt and cooking. You can easily add more, but removing it is much more difficult. So add some, “taste” and add more if needed. There is a fine line, as too much starts to slow a gun down without any benefit. In speaking with Paul Watts, he said this is one of the keys to his tunes – knowing when enough is enough.
You don’t need to disassembly the rifle to do this, but you should take it out of the stock. Disclaimer, I have done this to many air rifles with great success, but I have never owned a TX 200. If you get stuck on something, I am sure many TX owners on the yellow can jump in.
If you rifle really is buzzing, you will be amazed at the difference for the minute cost compared to a $289.00 tune.
Good morning Mac,
Thanks for the time and the energy that you’ve spent contributing to our, and you’re part of that our, blog–very much appreciated. A wonderful shooting gun in the right hands.
Bruce
Mac,
Nice shootin’! I humbly bow in admiration of your skill.
ka
Incredible shooting considering that Mac was using the target sights for 25 yard shooting. Even with well lit targets I struggle with target sights at 10 meters.
Mac, if you’re reading this try the air arms falcon pellets (7.33 gr, 5.52 head size) in your 10 meter guns for mini sniping. Almost all of my 10 meter guns shoot them well at distance.
kevin
Update on Tom.
GOOD NEWS! 🙂
Tom’s vital signs and hemoglobin levels have stabilized. He’s doing so well that he’s being moved to a regular room this morning.
We also discovered something very, very important: Tom’s allergic to a specific painkiller. As it turns out, it’s the same painkiller that the first hospital gave him 8 months ago. It causes those crazy hallucinations Tom was having and a rash all over his body. It also depresses his breathing, which explains why he never woke up for 6 days after that small procedure on April 2.
After getting that drug for a couple days this time around, he had the beginnings of Sundowner’s Syndrome, again. He knew it and called the nurse’s attention to it, so the drug was discontinued, the Sundowner’s and hallucinations disappeared after a few hours, and Tom snapped back to his old self. I’ll be getting him a medical alert bracelet to prevent anyone from giving him that drug in case of an emergency.
Edith
Good to hear that B.B. is doing better. Also good that he recognized a problem with the drugs.
My mother in law was prescribed some stuff after hip surgery that put her in orbit. She was seeing some VERY strange things. Completely out in wacky land.
twotalon
Edith
I am so happy BB figured that out. I don’t think I could ever again bear to picture Kevin and Wayne giving BB a sponge bath dressed as gypsies. Some guys will do anything for a USFT.
Slinging Lead,
I’m not cheap but I can be hired. Giving B.B. a sponge bath while wearing gypsy clothes would run into the millions.
kevin
Kevin,
I thought we agreed on $478,932.86
now it’s a million huh???
anyway, I guess I can do without that particular USFT.. or maybe someday.. who knows..
Edith,
MY HEART SOARS LIKE A HAWK!!
THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR KEEPING US IN THE LOOP…
Wacky Wayne,
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
Mrs. Gaylord,
You just made my day. Thanks.
Thrilled to hear he’s being moved out of ICU. Sure glad that Tom helped identify the problematic pain med.
Sure hope you’re following through on some form of retribution for that first institution that nearly killed him. Seems that without some serious repercussions these big organizations are reluctant to make necessary changes in their policies and procedures.
kevin
Kevin,
We are working through some things regarding the gross incompetence of the first hospital & the surgeons. The medical fraternity is highly protective of its own and has little interest in punishing individuals who make mistakes (and there were many mistakes made).
Our current surgeon & gastroenterologist are superb. We trust them, and they are the only people who have made Tom better. Everyone else sat on their hands to maintain the status quo or made things worse. None of it was malicious, but it had the same effect regardless of the motivation or reason.
Edith
Mrs. Gaylord,
You constantly show your terrific ability to “hit the nail on the head”.
The success of a medical malpractice suit depends not only on the experience of the attorney retained but on your experts testimony. Plaintiffs usually put more emphasis on researching/interviewing attorney’s but when you consider the extraordinary cost of experts, the critical importance of their credentials, hands on knowledge and the quality of their “presence” during deposition and their (hopefully) riveting testimony, more time should be spent interviewing medical experts.
I know this isn’t a priority now but when it is you may want to consider this valuable resource:
http://www.amfs.com/specialities/30/gastroenterology-experts?mm_campaign=2adadfde1ca065b7c654570cfebb4b5f&keyword=gastroenterology%2520expert%2520witness&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Experts%2520Specialists&gclid=CP3OrM3A0KUCFRRqgwodrjBxlQ
This was from my retired Doctor friend/fishing buddy.
kevin
kevin
That Sundowner’s Syndrome sounded to me exactly like the allergy to a sedative/anesthetic that my dad experienced after by-pass surgery. Once recognize, the fix is easy; you just need a doc ready t question if something he ordered could have the effect. Yes, get him the medicalert bracelet, and make him wear it all the time. I’m so glad that things are working right.
They didn’t work out well for a cousin who detected an aggressive form of skin cancer a bit too late. We bury him on Sunday in Chicago, and I’ve been really bummed since learning it early Friday AM. Knew it was coming; just not when.
pete,
Please accept my condolences on the death of your cousin. I’ve found that, no matter the circumstances, it’s never easy to say good by.
Bruce
Pete,
Sorry to hear about your cousin. Really shocking when things happen so suddenly, and it takes a while to wrap your brain around it.
Condolences from Tom and me.
Edith
Yea!
Edith and Tom,
I am so happy for the both of you and thankful to the Almighty he determined to allow this to go well.
You just would not believe how thank full I am!
pcp4me,
We are grateful to God for all He’s done, and we’re thankful regardless of the outcome. If Tom had not had the experience in the first hospital with the painkiller, he would not have noticed that anything was wrong when getting it on this go-round. But, the beginning of hallucinations combined with a rash that looked suspiciously like the rash he got on his first hospitalization (he looked like an albino cheetah…it’s an ongoing joke in our house 🙂 ) was what clinched it. He might have ended up incapacitated (the drug also depresses the pulmonary system and can be fatal) if he hadn’t known about the Sundowner’s from before. Because he’s now had major surgery, having his pulmonary system go down could have resulted in a very sad ending.
God makes all things work together for good. I can’t wipe the smile off my face 🙂
Edith
Edith,
Thanks for your last paragraph. You are absolutely correct in what you said.
My neighbor who also had pancreatic surgery, had the same problem, hallucinations etc. just like Tom. I’ll have to ask him what he had for pain.
Bruce
Terrific news, thanks Edith. And it’s nice to hear a specific explanation for the Sundowner’s and other problems. I understand that the criteria for malpractice is some identifiable harm. The old “no harm no foul.” It’s not fair but at least we can be grateful that there was no permanent harm.
On the other hand, I think that there are avenues of reprisal short of legal action. Regarding the evil nurse of yesterday, one of my purposes in checking out was to get some distance to operate. I wasn’t thinking clearly in the wake of my surgery and I was at a significant tactical disadvantage being under this person’s care. By the way, Tom is lucky to have such a wife and supporter in you. Medical patients are very vulnerable. Anyway, as soon as I could, I dragged myself to the keyboard and wrote the hospital’s quality control department, and I also gave my very nice doctor an earful about the treatment received. Short of legal satisfaction, the institution may pony up compensation. And at the very least, there is the hope of a cumulative response. It’s unlikely that someone who is such a screw-up does so only once, and bureaucracy is very good at keeping track of complaints. After a point, the institution will start to wonder if it’s in their interest to support someone who is a liability. So, even if you don’t get an immediate result, you may be laying the ground so that someone just like you in the future will and that the doctor/care provider will be called to account.
Matt61
Edith, B.B.
Excellent news! Hope Tom is home soon.
It’s a shame that patients have to keep a close watch on their doctors, nurses, etc. How can they get away with it? Makes me hope I can keep a clear head for many years.
If B.B. gets bored, maybe take him a CO2 repeater or a gas airsoft gun and appropriate target.
Jim K
Glad to hear Tom is doing much better, and no more visits to the twilight zone. Sometimes it seems like finding a good doctor is like finding the right pellet, just a lot more dangerous.
Thank you Edith,for being there for us as well as BB at this stressful time.
Great to hear Tom is making good progress.
You both deserve a vacation.
I would recommend a cruise,with a gentle walk round the decks after meals and plenty of fluids.
Wine,beer that sort of thing 🙂
DaveUK
If a 10m rifle can hit a cartridge case at 50 yards offhand, it sounds like it will do for field target. Nice shooting although it doesn’t quite come up to the posted accuracy of the FWB pcps (.06). I wonder if that is because of the spring action. Is .12 inch at 10m pretty much the limit for springers?
Mr. B., I don’t know how certain we should be that ammunition can’t be found for captured M25 grenade launchers. It seems to be pretty common for soldiers to use enemy weapons that do not use the ammunition of their own side e.g. the use by our own forces battlefield AK’s and of both sides of the other’s weapons on the Eastern Front. You figure if the a weapon is available for capture, the ammo can’t be far away.
Matt61
Matt61,
I think the rainbow trajectory of a .177 cal pellet out of a 10 meter gun is the primary reason you don’t see them in FT. No question that some of the more powerful or hopped up 10 meter guns (FWB 300 comes to mine) can be very accurate out to 80 yards and beyond. Yraah provided some excellent proof of this years ago.
Don’t know about group size for 10 meter springers but there’s no question that can’t keep up with even a vintage SSP. The giss system was an evolution in the growth from single spring 10 meter guns but it’s interesting that the diana’s never had a heyday. Seems that the SSP came along quickly after the introduction of the giss and overshadowed all spring 10 meter guns.
In 1984 at the LA Olympics the first single stroke pneumatic, SSP, (Walther LGR) match rifle, utterly raped, pillaged, and looted all competition. It caused all top shooters to all put their Diana 75’s, Anschutz 250’s, and FWB 300S’s in the closet after the LGR showed up. Near-perfect scores in competition soon became so common that the ISU actually reduced the size of the 10-meter target!
To a lesser extent, the 10 meter pcp guns, like the FWB P70, were the next step in the 10 meter revolution and they retired many SSP’s.
kevin
kevin
Then Feinwerkbau came out with the 600/601 and came roaring back. Single-stroke pneumatics have ruled since, up to very recently.
The targets here don’t even show how accurate these guns are, a 10-meter gun shot from a rest, taking the shooter out of the equation, with pellets it’s happy with, will shot a ten EVERY TIME. In fact thinking of the way Finals are scored, a 10.5 every time. The guns are that good.
The question for a 10 meter match rifle is not how accurate is it in the abstract. They are all brilliant and all better than a person holding them at off-hand. The proper question is “Do they make it easy to shoot a ten repeatably.” My one modern match grade 10m pistol does that in spades. It isn’t just technical tricks either. It’s shapes and weights and distributions — and attention to the smallest detail in the shooter’s body shape.
When this bad luck dogging me lets up you will get an article on the LP-10.
pete
The spring is dead…long live the spring!
Matt,
I saw a video on that gun and it fires a dedicated round whose fuse is set by the laser and the electronics in the gun and projectile. Naturally if the gun and some ammo is obtained by the “bad folks” in a combat situation or by a raid on a military base they can use it as long as their stolen/recovered ammo supply lasts.
Bruce
Mac:
That is some good shooting.
I would love to stretch the legs of my rifle past the 16 yards or so of my back garden but the bleedin weather has been terrible over here.
DaveUK
Here as well Dave, 8 inches of snow this past Tuesday and about 5 inches still laying about.
Thank god for my 10 meter garage range with the heater! (or is that a “carriage house”?)
Brian in Idaho:
Record low temperatures have made this week pretty bad all over the country.
A little treat today though.
My son in law came over with a Webley Axsor 8 shot PCP.(He has the 2 shot Webley Raider PCP)
It belongs to his work buddy who wants to sell it.
My 50ft indoor/outdoor range is still up and running despite the weather so he came here to try the Axsor out.
Crikey what a rifle,with a top line Simmons scope as well.
The fella hasn’t mentioned a price but a little research reveals they are as rare as rocking horse poop second hand.
The only example we found had a cheaper scope,was being sold for about £360 and I don’t think that had a walnut stock either(this one has).
My son in law has a lot to think about while I stand on his shoulder whispering “Buy it,Buy it” lol
‘Garage’ is what we call it as well but no doubt our Queen calls hers a ‘Carriage house’ still 🙂
DaveUK
Glad to hear Tom is making rapid progress.
Mac is calling a lot of fliers today — funny how it happens at 25 yards rather than 10. I would suspect the pellets to some extent, as they are starting to run out of juice at that range from a target rifle and are more susceptible to any disturbance. 20 yards might tell a different story, and I doubt the groups would hold together at 30+ unless under perfect conditions.
25 yards with those tiny little match sight holes is no easy feat. Did he replace the front with a clear insert?
Add a scope and I think it would be good out to 45 – 50 yards easy.
I’ve taken crows, pigeons, starlings, and a very fat, self-satisfied looking ground hog with a 10m gun. That ground hog wasn’t one of those huge Eastern ones, he was about the size of a small prairie dog. He’d have killed the apple tree if I didn’t get ‘im and I was lucky to get a shot at all. It wasn’t a good day to poke his head out of the hole.
Tom is coming home on Sunday. He hasn’t had to take pain pills for several days, which is amazing considering the type of surgery he’s had!
He’s eating regular food and doing well with it.
I’m in his hospital room right now and am extracting some blogs from him 🙂
He’ll probably start responding to blog comments on Monday, although I expect his participation to be part-time for the next week or so.
Edith
No pain meds for several days? I’ve know a few like him. Hit them upside the head with a beer bottle and they just smile.
Guess I’ll try to stay on his good side.
Not sure what he’s eating but there’s no regular food in any hospital I’ve seen.
Glad to hear he’s going home tomorrow.
kevin
Yippee, great news.
Matt61
I Know this is way off the topic but airgun guys and gals where probably gun guys and gals first. Bought a single shot 22 long rife wandering what would happen if I drilled the chamber out enough for a 22 mag to fit. The chamber steel is way over sized for the long rifle so not worried about the increased pressure will the rifling handle the mag. speed? Will the gun still be accurate?
Don’t even think about it.
You did not say what kind of action it has or what brand. Does not matter.
Besides being longer, a .22 mag has a larger diameter case. The bolt face will be wrong for it. The firing pin and extractor will be in the wrong place for the larger case.
Leave it alone.
twotalon
Hey B.B.
Could you maybe do a review on the new PT-85 from Gamo? It seems to be one of the fastest CO2 pistols on the market and has blowback action. It seems to be a Gamo version of the Beretta PX4 Storm, but improved in terms of velocity. I’m interested to see if it’s accurate and if it fits well in the hand.
Only 15
Only 15,
I was in the hospital when you asked about this review. I’m just seeing it today.
Please repost your request on today’s blog and I will look at for you.
I’m recovering from major surgery, so my ability to respond is limited.
B.B.
I’m looking for a 1911 in .45. Today I handled a whole rack of new ones at a new gun store. Just show your FOID at the door and you can handle anything, unpestered. Some of the 1911s fit like a glove. They were all under $1200, most in the $700-$800 range. My question is are any of these under $1200 guns any good? There were Colts, Sig Saur, Tarus, Springfield, to name a few, if I remember correctly. Does anyone know if any of these are real dogs, trouble prone, I should stay away from?
-Chuck
Chuck,
Before you buy anything I would strongly encourage you to wait for B.B. to return to the blog and ask him the question again. Sounds like it’s only going to be a few days. He used to work on other peoples 1911’s if I remember correctly (his gunsmithing days?). I’ve never owned one and shied away from them since the ones that I saw at the range usually had jamming/stovepipe problems that couldn’t entirely be blamed on ammo. Back in the day almost everyone I talked to about 1911’s proudly exclaimed all the work they had done on their pistols in order to get them to shoot. “Customized”. Turned me off. I think I remember B.B. saying that there are good ones and bad ones but the some of the current models are good out of the box.
Wish I could be more help.
kevin
Kevin/Toby,
Good advise. I’ll wait for BB’s experience. While I was there the clerk asked if he could answer any questions but I said I was just waiting for the right gun to speak to me. He said he understood and I said the problem is they’re all talking at once.
The place was so buyer friendly. Usually, around here at least, you have to ask the clerk to take one out from the display case one at a time with them standing there but at this place all those pistols were all just sitting there, ARs, too, and shotguns, etc. in racks begging to be handled.
-Chuck
Chuck,
All talking at once?!! Now that’s funny. Thanks.
kevin
Chuck,
I have a lot of experience with 1911’s going back about 30 or 40 years. I have most of the tools needed to accurize one. I have performed the process on MANY 1911’s so here is my view.
If you want top accuracy, feeding and function you will need to do some work on most guns except the custom ones from guys like Clark and others.
The $700 – $800 guns will generally need more work than the $1200 guns. Normally I would expect guns of that price range to shoot 2.5″ – 4″ groups at 25 yards rested.
Generally all will need a trigger tune. Most if not all will need a new fitted custom match bushing. Some will need work done on the extractor. Some might need better visibility sights and a target type rear sight. Some will need the frame tightened and lapped. Some might need a new custom fitted link, but I find this modification has the least effect on accuracy than any other unless you have a REALLY sloppy fitting of the link.
You would be amazed what just a little work will do for a gun. I once took an AMT Hardballer (sow’s ear in most folks eyes, though stock it way out shot my Colt Gold cup National Match stock gun and turned it into a VERY accurate smooth functioning match gun. I custom fitted by hand a match bushing, worked the trigger to a smooth creep free 2 pounds, adjusted the extractor and added new rear sights to it.
Result of all that was a gun went from 2.5″ 25 yards rested groups to 1″ groups! These groups were fired from a ransom rest. That gun stock cost me all of $200 way back then and a Colt GCNM cost around $500. For about $75 and maybe 10 hours of my time that gun way out shot colt’s efforts at their repair shop to make that gun group! Started out at 8″ ransom rested groups at 25 yards and after 5 trips back to colt would still only do 4″ best ransomed groups at 25 yards! Hardly match accuracy.
So yeah any gun can produce a lemon. Best advice is buy the gun which fits you best and be prepared to do some gunsmithing or take it to a good gun smith and do 1 thing at a time. Do the first four I mentioned in the order I wrote them first and carefully check accuracy after each mod.
Chuck, I am no expert but I do have some experience with the Model 1911. The 1911 I have was my grandfather’s sidearm in WW2. It is a Colt that was made in 1942. I haven’t shot it much but when I do it performs flawlessly. My father also owns a 1911 but it is a Sig. He is the type of person that over-researches stuff before making a purchase. He has had no problems at all with his Sig. I remember him discussing all his options with me before making his purchase. (this was about 5 years ago) The Sig is what he felt was the best way to go but that is just his opinion. Kevin has a good point, wait for B.B. and see what he has to say. I’m sure B.B. has a lot more experience than my father or myself with the 1911. Toby
Chuck, yes you should wait for B.B. However, I have the very thing for you. The Smith and Wesson 1911. MSRP is about $1100 which means you should get it for significantly less. I got a stainless model with adjustable sights and rosewood groups for slightly under $1000 a few years ago. This is almost a custom job with the precise fitting, match trigger, adjustable sights and the beavertail thumb safety. The thing has not only never ever jammed, it has never even come close even with the cheapo Magtech ammo that I buy at 30 cents a round. I’m still learning to shoot it, but the reviews say that the accuracy is at a competition level. The Smith and Wesson customer service is as good as they say too. I think they give a lifetime guarantee. If you want to go with the classic look, Springfield’s G.I. model and Para Arms’s G.I. Expert are good pieces of workmanship, historically correct and quite accurate. However, they don’t have the beavertail safety which does a lot to stabilize the gun. Otherwise, there are plenty of good guns out there. Unfortunately, the word on Colt is that their quality is kind of erratic, so you might get something good and you might not. Kimber has a very good reputation. I think they got contracts for the LAPD SWAT team and some Marine units. STI has uniformly good reviews if you don’t live in California and can get their guns. B.B. only got his Taurus to shoot after some personal gunsmithing which involved filing down a part–not something I would be up for. Anyway, he did his own investigation which he can tell you about. But I can assure you that you will not go wrong with the Smith and Wesson 1911. If you’re not wedded to the 1911 design and want a .45, you might also consider the Smith and Wesson M&P. That’s as good as any polymer gun from what I hear and more accurate than the Glock.
Matt61
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1291486448/Bye+Bye+BEEMAN+….+PICS
200 yrs old PCP ,top secret 😉 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbo8arkKXTg
Milan:
Quite astonishing.
An old work buddy told me about air guns being used in limited numbers at the battle of Waterloo.
I thought he was pulling my leg till seeing that vid.
DaveUK
Milan,
Thanks for that link. Very informative.
Bruce
Morning Gaylords,
Today is the day! We’re all waiting to get your conformation that Tom is back home.
Bruce
‘Home by the weekend’ great to hear Edith.
Bless you both.
DaveUK
Wayne,
Thanks for the link(s) to Vincent and regulators. He was quick to respond to my e-mail in which I’d asked him about a regulator for my AirForce Talon SS. However,. he doesn’t has any for that application. However, Air Guns of Arizona has one for the Benjamin Discovery. Have you, by any chance tried one of them? What caught my eye was that it looks like the regulator is adjustable and A of A was showing it getting 100 shots at about 625fps.
At 625 fps it would be perfect for plinking in my back yard. Then I could turn it up for hunting, if I was reading their add correctly.
Thanks,
Bruce
Tom came home 11:30 Sunday morning. No pain, no nothing. Except for the big scar, you’d never know he had major surgery 5 days ago!
He’s eating regular food, napping, watching TV, reading books and smiling. Monday morning, he’ll resume his daily morning walk around the neighborhood. When Tom was moved out of the ICU and into a regular room, he started walking the floors and was putting in over a mile a day.
Considering how much he’s been through, things are going spectacularly well. All smiles at our house. This is the best Christmas present ever 🙂
Edith
Mrs. Gaylord,
Best Christmas present ever? Being married to someone with a big fresh scar that lays on the couch watching TV, eating and reading books? If my wife had your attitude she’d think that she was the most blessed woman on earth!
Seriously, that’s great news. I know he won’t be on that couch very long.
kevin
Thanks Edith. Yes that’s the best Christmas you certainly are right! However, you neglected to mention the cats and their hellos to Tom.
Bruce
Mr. B.,
The cats definitely missed Tom. They sleep with us and noticed that he wasn’t available for snuggling.
They’re very happy he’s home 🙂
Edith
Is the RWS 75 still produced?
Thanks,
Wes
Wes,
Not for many years.
B.B.