by B.B. Pelletier
Okay, the bottom line is, you don’t need a chronograph. If all you do is shoot, you never need to use a chronograph for anything. But, if you want to get the optimum performance from your airgun and if you want to diagnose the health of your airgun, a chronograph is an essential piece of equipment.
Imagine a doctor without a stethoscope. He’s still a doctor and he can still do lots of things; but a major tool has been taken away, and there’s no way he can get around not having it. That’s you without a chronograph. Allow me to explain.
PCPs
Let’s say that you want to get into the world of precharged airguns, and let’s say you’ve read enough to understand that you don’t just fill them to their maximum fill pressure and start shooting. Oh, you can do that, and it’ll work, but you’ll never know how well it works unless you can diagnose how the gun performs. Let me illustrate with a story.
Years ago, I bought an Air Arms Shamal precharged rifle for a great price. It was a beautiful rifle in .22 caliber and I was anxious to get started, so I filled it to 3,000 psi and began shooting. Fortunately, I owned a chronograph that I was using to test the gun. The first shots were in the low 500 f.p.s. range, when I had expected .22-caliber Crosman Premiers to go at least 800 f.p.s. I kept right on shooting that rifle, and after about 60 shots it finally climbed up to the 800 f.p.s. level. Because of the chronograph, I discovered that the maximum fill for that rifle was only 2,600 psi. I still got about 40 powerful shots, but they happened at a different range on the pressure scale.
Years later when I the technical director at AirForce Airguns, I used to get calls from new Condor owners who were having problems with their guns. They were shooting very slowly when filled to 3,000 psi. I convinced some of these people to try lower maximum fill pressures until the first shots were powerful, but this could all have been solved if they had simply used their chronographs to determine the same thing. Sometimes, the disparity was due to pressure gauges that weren’t in agreement, but other times the rifles themselves were simply not performing well at 3,000 psi. Drop them back to 2,800 or 2,700 psi, and they work fine and still get just as many shots that were just as powerful as every other Condor.
I actually had several people tell me that because AirForce was a manufacturer they should control the maximum fill pressure of their guns better than that. I countered with the fact that they were losing nothing by their guns operating at a lower pressure level, but they weren’t satisfied. They said the company advertised a fill pressure of 3,000 psi and that is what it should be. Since I helped build and test those guns, I knew they operated in a range of fill pressures depending on dozens of variables, but that wasn’t good enough for these guys.
A correlation would be someone who buys a new car and then gets mad because it won’t go as fast as the speedometer indicates at the top end. Almost every car is like that, but nobody ever goes that fast, so nobody notices.
Multi-pumps
Then there are the folks who think that if a multi-pump is powerful on just 10 pumps, it should crack like a .22 on 20. You absolutely cannot convince them that their guns are shooting slower when they exceed the maximum number of pumps — just like a Corvette goes no faster if you try to put an extra 30 gallons of gas in the tank. In this situation, a chronograph is a de-liar. Just like a fish scale or a ruler, a chronograph tells the story the way it really is instead of what your dreams project.
A chronograph can also tell you when that old multi-pump no longer performs to spec like it once did. Maybe the pump head needs to be adjusted or maybe it just needs to be oiled — the chronograph tells that story.
Single-strokes
A chronograph can instantly tell you the health of your single-stroke pneumatic. In fact, it’s the only way we have of knowing what the health really is. I use a chronograph when I oil the gun to see the before and after comparison.
…a chronograph is a de-liar. Just like a fish scale or a ruler, a chronograph tells the story the way it really is
CO2 guns
Oh, yeah, that new shoot-em-upski is a real powerhouse at 490 f.p.s. But, when you pull the trigger as fast as you can, shot 5 comes out the spout at 376 f.p.s. The only way you will every know that is with a chronograph. Or, how many shots do you get with a fresh CO2 cartridge? Or, how does the cold weather affect velocity? Or, how does that new tuned valve compare with what the factory sent? And any of a dozen other interesting vital statistics about your gas gun are waiting inside your chronograph.
Spring guns
How can you own a springer and not have a chronograph? Sure, the manufacturer says it shoots 1,000 f.p.s., but you really want to know what it does when shooting that one best pellet — the one that hits what you shoot at. Finding out you are shooting 789 f.p.s. with your best pellet allows you to make all sorts of adjustments to taylor the performance of the rifle to the real world.
Or, what happens when you oil the gun? Only the chronograph will tell you the truth.
How will you know when you have broken a mainspring? Diana rifles just get smoother and lighter to cock when their springs break. Unless you know the velocity, you’ll never have a clue what the gun’s doing.
What about that tuneup you just did? What did it do for you? Without a chronograph, you’re just relying on your senses, and they can fool you every time. Let me tell you another story.
Back when I was testing the Beeman R1 for my R1 Homebrew series in The Airgun Letter, which turned out to be the foundation of my R1 book, I chanced to install a Venom Mag 80 Laza Glide kit. The cocking effort jumped up to 50 lbs., but when the rifle fired it was so smooth and quiet you would have sworn it was only producing 15 foot-pounds of energy. It took a chronograph to prove that it was actually up to 23 foot-pounds.
Sure, you can shoot into boards and duct seal and all kinds of other mediums, and you’ll get relative comparisons. To put an absolute number on those speeding pellets, you need a chronograph.
They’re not expensive
Yes, I know, spending $100 for something that isn’t an actual airgun is hard to do. It’s hard for me, too. I also know there are those who are living at the edge of their finances and just cannot afford anything beyond that next tin of pellets. So, I’m not talking to them right now. But for the rest of you who, over the course of a year, spend $300 and more on your airgunning hobby, you do have the resources to own a chronograph. You just don’t have your priorities aligned correctly, because you don’t see the need. That’s what today’s report is all about…to show you the need to own the most helpful piece of equipment you can imagine for airgunning.
Heck, back in the 1960s, when I was reading all the giants of gun writing, those veterans were struggling with paper start/stop screens that had wires embedded in them and readouts on nixie tubes that had to be translated through tables to obtain velocities. Today, we have skyscreens that require no maintenance beyond awareness of where they are in relation to the muzzle, and our readouts are not only direct, they also store strings and perform useful statistics on them. Shooters who can’t calculate the mean for a string of numbers can print out the standard deviation of every string they shoot with the push of a button.
All this comes at a price, and the price has never been lower. For about a C-note, you’re in the game with a Shooting Chrony Alpha chronograph that elevates you to the same level as puffed-up writers like me. I use the heck out of my Alpha model. Even though I own an Oehler 35P chronograph that’s well-respected as a scientific instrument, my little Shooting Chrony is handier and faster to set up and use. It gives me numbers just like the Oehler does, and it does all the simple statistics I need. And, thanks to the generosity of readers of this blog, I also have the optional Shooting Chrony Ballistic Printer for when the strings get really large and cumbersome.
When should you buy a chronograph?
This is the question each of us has to answer. The answer will be different for each person, but here’s what happened to me. I’d been an airgunner for 40 years before I bought my first chronograph. In my defense, most of those 40 years were the bad years for chronographs. Only in the last 5 to 8 years did the prices drop to affordability, mainly because the Shooting Chrony came on the market.
Then, I started writing The Airgun Letter, and my need for a chronograph increased exponentially. When I started the R1 Homebrew series, the dam finally burst. How could I test the gun without one? So, at the 1993 Winston-Salem airgun show I bought a used Shooting Chrony from Paul Watts for $45. It worked fine and got me started with the R1 series, but that old model had cardboard skyscreen portals that were chewed up when I got the unit and I began chewing them up even faster. Before several months had passed, I started getting spurious readings that were 150 f.p.s. off what I knew they should be. I tracked that to the floppy, shot-up skyscreen portals and to not holding the barrel of the rifle perpendicular to the skyscreens. Edith and I freaked out, because here I was telling the world about my test gun and suddenly I felt I couldn’t trust my test instrument.
So, we popped for the Oehler 35P chronograph that every gun writer worth his salt uses. In those days (mid-1990s), you couldn’t publish gun velocities in a newsstand magazine unless they had been obtained with an Oehler of some kind. I still have that Oehler, and I use it a lot, but I use my modern Alpha Chrony even more for the reasons I’ve already mentioned. However, I’m glad I bought the Oehler when I did, because they’re no longer available new. The used prices are on the increase. Fortunately, I know of a brand-new in-the-box 35P that I would buy in an instant, should the need ever arise. It might cost me $700, but at this point my career depends on chronographs so much that I would bite that bullet without a second thought.
I would still continue to use the Alpha Chrony, as I am advising you to do. Yes, the Oehler gives more precision and yes, it has a second circuit built in, so you get not one but two different readings with every shot. Here’s the difference between this top-of-the line chronograph and a Shooting Chrony. The Oehler may say a shot went 987 f.p.s., while the Shooting Chrony may say the same shot went 996 f.p.s. The Oehler, with its 4-megahertz clock speed is 40 times more precise than the Chrony with its 100-kilohertz clock, but the actual difference on the readout is what…7 f.p.s.? Here’s the kicker — neither number is exactly correct. The Oehler is just a little “more correcter” than the Chrony. Who cares? We’re talking 7 feet per second over a range of almost 1,000 feet per second. It’s like dandruff on a white coat — nobody will notice. Besides, if all you publish is the Chrony number, then that’s the velocity. Get it? Think about that for a moment.
I know this report sounds a little like a rant and a lot like a sales pitch, and perhaps both of those are true. But, I read every week about shooters who haven’t got a clue what their guns are doing and I hurt, knowing they’re so close to ultimate awareness. For the price of a cheap springer, you can have the wool pulled off your eyes and join the growing number of shooters who cannot be fooled. Last story before I close.
Over the years, I’ve watched tadpole airgunners develop into fresh young frogs with minds of their own. The young tadpoles start out swimming around aimlessly, not knowing what’s out there or understanding the difference between a harsh spring rifle and a smooth-shooting PCP. Then, as they read, discuss and learn, their legs begin to develop and they start transforming into the dark green amphibians I know they’ll become. Finally, they pop for a chronograph, and the transformation is complete.
I read every week about shooters who haven’t got a clue what their guns are doing
Within a month, they start trying to email me spreadsheets of numbers they’ve obtained with their new toy. The last vestige of their now-useless tail has withered and dropped off, and they’ve become what destiny ordained.
Three years later, they’re fat bullfrogs with their own lily pads and dozens of airguns, a well-worn chronograph and a deep croaking attitude about airguns that can be heard across the internet. Can’t nobody pull the wool over their eyes no more — no sir! That’s when they cease being newbies and become colleagues.
Please think about it.
In August 2006, I wrote an article about the Shooting Chrony and why you’d need a chronograph. Please read it and watch the video at the end. The information there is different than today’s report, and it’s a good augmentation.
That’s what you’ve turned me into… A frog! 😉 being french Canadian (we’re called frogs by anglophones) I guess it was my destiny to become one.
I bought a Chrony when I started getting into it and it was one of my first “serious” buys. I actually bought the Chrony before I bought most of my airguns it’s less expensive than a lot of guns we buy and it not only helps diagnose problems, I think it helps us kinda understand or get to know the airgun better like knowing someone on a more personal level. With the right tools they can’t hide anything from us.
“if it doesn’t unfold, it’s not a Chrony”
It’s also a great gift someone who doesn’t have a clue about airguns can get you (that’s how I got mine) it’s a lot less intimidating that choosing among the hundreds of airguns available, “honey I would really like a HW 45 or HW 75 or the Beeman P1 or the P11” just doesn’t seem to cut it, I just get some kind of blank stare like I just started speaking a language from an another planet and “what else would like to get? Do you have any other suggestions?”
JF
Ps : sorry I haven’t posted a lot lately I just noticed Google and gmail went coo coo again and I wasn’t receiving everything posted but I was still getting a few here and there so I was only getting bits and pieces of what you guys were saying. I have a lot of catching up to do.
My parents turned me into a “frog” (French Canadian), don’t have a need for a chrony only have one airgun.
rikib 🙂
Rikib -i don’t see any need for chronograph for us casual target shooters .Here in Croatia hunting with air rifles is forbidden by law-if you take a good care for your rifle/pistol (at least lube tune from time to time )and you can hit the target -you are OK paper won’t mind 😉 !
I don’t “need” a chrony either, as don’t “need” a scope for this or that rifle, I also don’t “need” that other airgun but I’m still gonna find a “good” reason to buy it. I’ve had my shooting Chrony for a while but I only use it a few times a year, I set it up and pass a few guns and/or pellets thru it.
I also have a micrometer and a small balance but I don’t measure and weight every pellet.
I have many tools in my garage but I’m not a woodworker or a mechanic but if I need them they’re available. I don’t use my compound miter saw everyday, but I know that if I need it it’s there and in good working order.
The Chrony is the same thing to me, it’s a tool and I like the fact that if I need it it’s right there.
Not everyone has or likes or wants or has the ability and/or knowledge to use some tools and it’s ok that way.
We’re all different with a common liking for airguns and that’s what brings us together.
J-F
I have three different multimeters. I know how to use them. Can’t live without them.
Don’t need one every day, but when I DO need one I have it. Makes some things a lot easier.
twotalon
Sorry, no. I will not buy a chronograph. I like to shoot in my spare time, not develop spreadsheets. The need for chronographs with PCP’s could be eliminated if manufacturers did their duty (not to mention some real engineering) and put regulating devices on the rifles, instead of asking the consumer to figure it out for themselves. That would also, pretty quickly, cut down on the number of people who feel that posting “shot strings” is effective communication. If someone can’t shoot a rifle without a chronograph, there is something wrong with either the rifle or that person. I suppose I will not become a colleague if this is the criterion.
BGF, there are a LOT of times when shot-strings are quite pertinent. Trying to sell me a used gun? How do I know that the piston seal isn’t shot, the spring isn’t broken, or whatever? These things will all impact the value, and a shot string details the health of the powerplant.
Or when you buy a rifle you can shoot it rather happily for quite a while – and pounding the guts out of it – before finding out that the piston seal is bad and the lack of compression hammered the heck out of the front of the piston. This is what might have happened with the used R10 I bought – if I hadn’t tossed a few over the chrony. And if I HAD damaged that gun because I didn’t check it out the cost of repair might well have exceeded the cost of the chrony.
There’s no one who can’t shoot a rifle without a chrony. But it is impossible to evaluate or diagnose a powerplant properly without one. When someone writes in and asks for help because the gun ‘seems to shoot slow’, what can you do if there are no chrony numbers? Make a few suggestions and ask him how it ‘feels’? About the only thing you can suggest is ‘Send it somewhere and let them check it out’. And so he spends $30-$40 round trip in shipping alone without even knowing if anything’s wrong.
I’ve had some involvement over the years with auto repair (mostly in an amateur role) and have heard so many times – “Man, my gas mileage really went down!” But really they have no idea how much fuel they used vs. how many miles they’ve driven. All they know is that $20 of gas used to last them ’till Thursday, but now it takes $25.
Very often raw performance numbers are extremely important. Of course it’s easy to get too hung up on them, but that’s beside the point.
Agreed; a Chrony is a great diagnostic tool that often becomes confused with use only as a speedometer to be used in the race to win highest velocity. When I get a new gun of any kind, I’ll use the chrony to establish a record of it’s speed or fps performance as of that day (especially springers). I may not put that gun across the chrony again for months or years but somewhere in the gun/tool box, I will have a target card with the facts written down on it for future use.
It is also hugely useful (to Twotalon’s point) in establishing WHAT is a tune? A new mainspring? A new seal? More Moly Lube? All the above? For airgunners especially, this is invaluable. For firearms, the cartridge is the power plant, just buy a higher velocity cartridge. For us airunners, the device is the power plant, and power plant parts fail or wear out over time.
Vince,
I agree that the information in a shot string is important in certain case, but it is rare to need to publish raw data for 80 shots, for example, to extract that information. A statistical distillation is adequate in most cases. I also agree that the chronograph has its uses, depending on what one is doing and how one likes to do it. For me, however, it is simpler and more enjoyable just to shoot the rifle and see if it meets my expectations in terms of accuracy and trajectory. If not, I will take it apart and fix what looks wrong, whether or not that affects the velocity. I’m not saying that there is anything wrong with the proper application of chronographs or the people who use them, simply that I do not like being told I must have one to be a real airgunner.
Finally — and related to that, I have been troubled of late by what seems to be a trend here of belittling people who do not agree to certain catechisms or desire to procure certain equipment. It is my right to enjoy the hobby as I see fit. This blog has been indispensable in learning about airguns and enjoying them, and I respect and enjoy the company of most of the people here, even when we differ, so I am sad to see what appears to be a change towards didacticism and exclusivity, even — in this case — from the top. Had this article, for example, simply elucidated the uses of a chronograph, my reaction might have been rather different, although I still doubt I would have rushed out and bought a chronograph.
BG_Farmer,
I’m sorry if my lame attempt at humor has put you off today. I wrote this piece with my tongue stuck way out my cheek and I promise you I did not intend to offend anyone.
Sometimes we just fail to achieve what we were going for. In my defense II submit Gary Larson’s “Cow Tools”.
B.B.
BB,
If that is the case, then there is no need to apologize. I’m sorry that I did not recognize the humor. Likewise, I really didn’t mean my post to seem as harsh as it must have come across judging by the responses. If you have the time, however , please consider re-reading your article referenced at the end of today’s post and compare the tone and metaphorical language employed to today’s. I think you might then at least understand my mistaken impression and forgive me. I also admit there is the possibility I am not, in fact, a real airgunner: Airgunning is a part of my shooting activities, useful and enjoyable, but not the entire sum :).
BG-Farmer, not sure what you mean by the above. Exclusivity? As far as I know the only guy who was ever excluded (besides the spam that gets filtered) was Wos, and that’s because he took to insulting people.
The whole thesis of this piece was stated in the 1st paragraph:
“But, if you want to get the optimum performance from your airgun and if you want to diagnose the health of your airgun, a chronograph is an essential piece of equipment.”
Is this what you have a problem with? And please, tell us where you see a ‘trend towards belittling people’… I know that this is the last thing that BB wants to do, and that’s the last thing I want to do in either my guest blogs or regular postings. Believe me, if that’s what’s happening here I think all of us want to nip it in the bud.
Vince,
What I disagreed with was the implication that one must own a chronograph to be an airgunner. It appears I misinterpreted the humor. “Exclusivity” was perhaps wrong, and “elitism” might have been more precisely what I intended. I will not go into specifics, because it is more than likely I also misinterpreted those things as well. I myself am not guiltless, being an arrogant and opinionated SOB on some (most?) topics :).
BG, the fact is that airgunning is a hobby. It’s primarily for fun. It’s true that without a chrono you’re probably not going to maintain your rifles at the peak of their performance or properly diagnose a lot of problems. But that might not be important to you… for you ‘good enough’ is, well, good enough.
AND there’s not a single thing wrong with that. Let’s face it… we’re not talking about the curing of disease or the salvation of souls here. There’s no moral obligation on any of us to make sure everything is as perfect as it possibly can be. The only obligation is to see that it brings some joy and recreation to the shooter – because the minute it stops being fun it’s outlived its purpose.
There’s nothing that defines a ‘real airgunner’ (well, besides actually shooting airguns!). If someone tries to tell you otherwise, just remind them that airgunning was made for man, not man for airgunning and go your own way.
Sure, I have a chrony. But I don’t work on my actual shooting technique as much as some guys do, and probably less than you. If someone is going to suggest that I’m not properly devoting myself to the sport… whatever. At the end of my days I’m not going to have to answer for missing the 10 ring too many times…
Vince,
You’ve actually touched on one of my favorite things. Whenever there’s a tremendous amount of pressure or stress related to work, I remind myself and others we’re not dealing with lifesaving equipment. If we don’t have all the images online within the next few minutes, no one will die. If we don’t have a complete description ready to roll today, no one is injured. The basics will work without having to over-stress anyone.
I read this blog before it was published, but I don’t see where it’s pressuring anyone or denigrating people who do not have a chronograph (or any other type of equipment). In fact, the blog starts off with this: “Okay, the bottom line is, you don’t need a chronograph. If all you do is shoot, you never need to use a chronograph for anything.”
The article on Pyramyd Air’s site is a review of the equipment and how the chronograph is used as well as the accessories that might be useful. It has a different tone because it was written with a different purpose.
Edith
BG Farmer,
It is not a question of people not being able to shoot an air gun with out a chronograph. I do it all the time. AFTER running a few strings over the Chrony just to make sure of the health of the gun.
And your rant about manufacturers of pcp’s is way off base. Do you have any idea what a pcp would cost if manufacturers had to hold the tolerances on a gun so close that it actually used the recommended fill pressure on every gun? Or actually met the 1000 fps on every gun shipped with no variation? WAY more than I would want to pay!
And as to the regulators being placed in the gun, three things wrong with that. First, not needed in most guns. Second, the mentioned price increase. Third, it only works to my knowledge for single velocity/power guns. Many air gunners want adjustable power on their guns. And the most efficient effective way to set up the power is using a chronograph!
Oh WAIT! Crosman kinda sorta did that with a Marauder, and guess what? Yep you NEED a CHRONOGRAPH to set the adjustments on the three types of “regulators” built into the M-Rod.
So cheers and a good year man. But I still believe your rant is way off base.
My entire “rant” was five sentences long, with the offensive part being one sentence, so I thought it was at least more succinct than most rants :). I have no idea what regulators would cost per PCP unit nor why they would preclude using multiple power levels. Please share that technical data with the group. I doubt most of the manufacturers have even researched it adequately, being indulged so obligingly by their customers. I did not address springers, as that seems to be more of a marketing problem than anything else. Sorry if my opinion is out of line.
BG,
in my opinion,your opinion is not out of line. We all have opinions and we’re all welcome to them. Wedont’ all have to agree with each other’s opinions. Heck, things would get real boring if we did. It’s great to have a spirited discussion with no name calling and everyone making valid points. I agree with you that you don’t need a chronometer. It’s simply a matter of where you want to go with this great hobby. Some of us like to get our hands dirty and look for anything that might be wrong with our guns and that’s where a chronometer helps with the diagnosis and whether the repair actually achieved an improvement. Others just enjoy shooting and being the best shot they can be and leave the tinkering to others that enjoy it.
I see nothing wrong with either approach.
I also promise, no more jokes.
Fred PRoNJ
Fred,
Don’t give up the jokes on my account — the cow from minsk one was good. I still can’t exactly figure why this thing rubbed me the wrong way so strongly, for some reason I can recognize the absurdity of the metaphor, but not figure out what signifies that the metaphor is not to be taken somewhat seriously, i.e., that the image presented is the ideal airgunner, transformed via the enlightenment of a chronographic record of his extensive collection of rifles. There are people like that, some are quite nice, others fairly obnoxious, but I’d never associated that behavior with some sort of ideal of airgunning, just individual characters. Oh well, probably I fried some circuit or something…
Regarding chronographs, I do like the simplicity of airguns, and so far have not had any problems with them that couldn’t be diagnosed to my satisfaction without a chronograph, but it helps that I’m happy with just a couple and focused on the application, i.e., the accuracy and trajectory, which I think encapsulate the useful data a chronograph can yield without risking fixation on the absolutes of the raw data. Frankly, I could care less that my rifle might be able to do 20fps more or vary 2 fps less, as that would make very little practical difference for my uses, as long as the requirements are already met. I have seen several cases also where people obtain a sort of initial value for a tune or new rifle then obsess about maintaining or bettering it, although I’m almost certain that velocity will always deviate some from its initial value, just by the nature of mechanical things. I fear this type of thing can result in spending a lot more time tinkering with and worrying about the internals of the gun than shooting it. How many times, for example, has someone been happy with their rifle then discovered that its 35fps off its rating, or something similar, and then tortured themselves trying to get to a pointless goal, when it was “silky smooth” or “deadly accurate” just 10 minutes prior? That’s okay for them to do that, if they enjoy it, but not my idea of fun. Anyway, just my perspective.
I’ve got a shoot-em-upski and I don’t recommend them. Junk.
…a what???
Vince,
A shoot-em-upski. Usually refers to a cheap action type gun which allows you to waste ammo rather quickly and is inaccurate. Often CO2 and usually have very stiff trigger pulls as you are turning the magazine along with cocking the gun.
Some times referred to as “shoot and spray” or “shoot and pray” guns.
Oh. You mean a Marksman 1010.
Vince,
Among others. Though the term generally refers to guns with a higher rounds per minute capability.
I actually mean that Crosman rifle with the grey stock, that uses CO2 and loads using “magazines” that actually hold those rotary clips. It works like a revolver shooting double-action internally.
It’s a fine idea, but the standard small CO2 cartridges can’t provide a lot of shots at a decent velocity, and don’t do much for consistency either.
It’d be a neat idea with a larger CO2 tank.
But then it’s only about a $50 gun.
Hmm I looked around and you may be able to get a new 35P from Oehler for $600.
If only I could get a Princess to kiss me…
…..and the frog said to the old farmer,”perhaps you didn’t hear me…if you kiss me I will transform into a beautiful woman and will stay with you forever!!!!” I heard you fine,replied the farmer…..I’d rather have a talking frog 🙂
And then she asked me if I’d like to have some super sex and I chose the soup!
Ba-dum-bump! Crash!
B.B.
For their 40th anniversary,after the “kids”left…..the wife whispered”let’s run upstairs and make love
like we used to”.The husband replied”you’re gonna have to pick one!”
… and then I says, “Rectum? It damn near killed him!”
Hoo Boy,
Some of these comments stink!
…maybe just ‘crash’…
From Dumb and Dumber:
bus of girls: Hi, we’re the Swedish bikini team and we’re looking for a couple of oilboys.
the dumb: Sorry, can’t help you.
….
the dumb (breathless after a frantic run to catch up to the departing bus): But we think there’s a town just down the road where you can find some.
Matt61
Matt61,
One of my favorites from the same movie… Cop: “Pull over!” Dumb: “No, it’s a cardigan, but thanks for noticing… Killer boots, dude!”
ka
BB and everyone,
I request that sex/sexual innuendos and jokes be left a private matter, especially if you want parents to feel safe letting their kids participate or read this blog.
Thanks,
AR
A.R.T.,
RE: Younger readers/off color. I agree with you! I forget who this blog attracts and I wouldn’t want to deny them the info so freely given here. Thank you for the reminder. Some things are not necessary for this blog to be successful.
-Chuck
Thanks for the reminder.
A.R. Tinkerer,
Arghh! I am humbled. I was just catching up after work and read this AFTER my Jeep guy post. Sorry children and sensitive types for my reply to that! Thanks A.R.
ka
I don’t think any young minds were damaged/defiled/warped by the humour posted in this blog.
You guys need to lighten up and quit being so darned PC.
Les
It doesn’t have to do with politics, but values. It depends on what parents want their kids exposed to – and that is their right. If people don’t care, readers that don’t want that exposure will leave, and that will be their choice. It the choice of Pyramyd and you whether you want them to stay.
Thank you,
AR
Do we still maintain our PG 17 rating? :]
ka
You mean PG? I don’t know since there doesn’t seem to be any official word, unless “no rules” was the official word. To be clear, I’m not mad. I would just be disappointed if we can’t restrain ourselves to keep it completely clean for kids.
AR
Pyramyd AIR wants to keep this blog on a level and mood that’s safe for kids to read. Maybe TV and movies have desensitized me to things that are obvious to others, but I thought it was still kid-friendly.
Edith
Chuck, Vince and KidAgain,
Thank you.
AR
A.R. Tinkerer,
I am posting reply here because it’s getting weird looking where it would have been posted. Anyway, For years Edith has done a pretty good job at keeping us in line. I have only been censored once or maybe twice and as a result it’s given me a pretty good idea as to where the boundaries are drawn here. Your concerns are valid and though you expressed your concerns a little early for anything that COULD’VE been said, nothing WAS said that little ears shouldn’t hear. So… we’re good, right?
ka
KidAgain,
I agree that Edith has a difficult job and does good.
As for the comments under this topic, the movie Dumb and Dumber is rated PG-13. Here is a description of that rating.
A PG-13 movie could go “beyond the PG rating in theme, violence, nudity, sensuality, language, adult activities or other elements, but does not reach the restricted R category.” The MPAA will give this rating to films with drug use or more than brief nudity, although the nudity in a PG-13 is not sexual in nature.
There are some who would disagree with the 13 in PG-13 and I would think we would want the blog to be safe for kids younger than 13. We need to think a G rating.
AR
I am just getting into air guns now as an adult, after a long break from when I was a child, and thought they were just childish things, I know better now… I must thank you for the very entertaining and informative reading this site has given me in the last few months.
I will be purchasing a chronograph soon hopefully, and I have been looking at the Shooting Chronys. Since I do not know much about them besides measuring velocity, what is the difference between the lower cost ones (i.e, F-1) to the higher cost ones like the Master?
I know, I could research some more on my own, but I have to admit, I have been looking for a reason to post on this blog and this seems as good as any:)
About the only difference I can see is how many options you have…such as how long of a shot string it will store, and how many shot strings that it will store.
I recently got the blue one, and a printer for it. It’s more touchy about lighting conditions than my older Pro Chrono. Have only used the Beta indoors so far. Might be a lot better outside. Too cold for testing right now.
I originally got my old Prochrono for testing muzzle loader loads. Used it also for compound bow tuning. Most recently used for airgun testing and tuning.
twotalon
OJ,
Welcome! Feel free to post here any time.
The Master model has a display with a cable that allows you to monitor the chronograph from some distance. In other words, the chronograph is over there, but your readout is in front of you.
I have not found that to be a useful feature, but if I was shooting a firearm it would be, because I would not want to shoot a firearm directly in front of the start screen. With an airgun, though, you can do that, so the remote readout doesn’t seem useful to me.
B.B.
BB,
I have the Master, and I have found one good use for the remote display, plus one other benefit (given that I have not invested in the printer):
In order to figure out average BC of a pellet, we need to chrony at two distances. The close one is easy, but for the far one the regualr screen can be hard to see. With the remote screen on the Master you can place it right near the target where the light can hit is just right, and where the scope is already focused. It can also be adjusted for better viewing angle without moving the Chrony itself. And of course, a low shot won’t hit the display and mess it up! But it does make the whole thing a little more awkward to set up.
All,
Don’t forget that the Shooting Crhony company has a great upgrade program – buy any used beat up one you can find, and you can upgrade to a new better one for a very good price when you want to.
Alan in MI
OJ,
Welcome, they haven’t booted me off here yet, so odds are you’re safe posting here!
ka
OJ,
Welcome! Thanks for posting. I’ll give you my take on chronographs.
I own a pro chrono. I host get togethers for the many local airgunners. Early on several of the local airgunners would bring their chrony’s to the shoots. Many of the other chrony’s would display “error” more often than my pro chrono. Don’t know if their batteries were low, their skyscreens were not as well designed or the units themselves were not as well made as the pro chrono but mine has functioned flawlessly for years. Now that everyone knows I have a chrony they don’t bring theirs to the shoots anymore.
When I was shopping for a chronograph I talked myself out of the need for a printer. I quickly realized that a printer was invaluable. I STRONGLY suggest that while you’re shopping for a chrony that you price the cost of the printer. You don’t need to buy it immediately but I think you’ll find it important in a short period of time especially if you have more than one gun. The pro chrono requires a remote and a separate printer (two items). The printer and remote communicate through wireless infrared and do so flawlessly. Another option with the pro chrono is using your computer, your computers printer and special software to print out your shot strings, graphs, etc. I never went that route. I bought an older, used printer off of ebay for cheap and it’s about the size of a large handheld calculator.
Good luck in your search. Keep us informed about your airgunning experiences. That’s how we learn.
kevin
Thanks for all the welcomes everybody, I like it here. I am definitely in the tadpole stage as of right now as I do not know where I am going in this hobby, but it is sure addicting.
Getting a good deal on some (Chinese) Beeman Springers is what got me back into the sport. I always wanted a Beeman when I was younger, when I saw some for a ridiculously low price, I had to buy them. I have a small obsession with over researching everything, and when I found out that my Beemans where Chinese, I wanted to learn what happened and that is what led me here, and it made me research even more and showed me how the Air gun world has changed in my last 15 years of not paying attention.
I am mostly a pistol shooter though, so I have been bitten by the 10 meter bug, but with the cost of it and lack of a local scene (Omaha, NE) it is hard to do too much socially, but I have met a great guy locally that some of you may have had contact with before, Mike from TKO. He helped me fix a 2240 and gave me a wealth of info about everything from multipump Crosmans from the 1970’s, to BSA PCP’s and the Marauder pistols.
Right now I am interested in everything air gun, so I am quickly working my way through these archives, but yeah, I am gonna like it here:)
OJ,
Welcome to the blog. There is untold airgun wealth here. Since you’re interested in 10m pistol and rifle, you should look into the http://www.airgunarena.com eMatch competition. You shoot at home in your own time and enter your score online. It’s fun and you get a small taste of what competing is like. There are a few pistol and rifle competitions that might fit your need. Plus, you win PA gift certificates by winning and by random drawing.
-Chuck
Thanks, Chuck. I found the ematches a while ago, but I shot my first last night with a friend. AP 20/20. Shot a 174 with my Gamo Compact. Almost the best I have done yet with that pistol.
Chuck,
Thanks for posting that comment, otherwise I would have never known about that! I signed up, my brother signed up, and also my dad! Have you ever won anything?
Conor
Conor,
I have won several times on the lucky drawing for the rifle bench rest because of limited participation. I actually won first place in bench rest once but I was the only participant at the time.
-Chuck
B.B.
This topic brings to mind another topic that might be good for a weekend….
What is ‘tuning’ ?
“I tuned it”, ” I had it tuned”. It means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
“Lube tune”, “Power tune”, just plain “tuned”.
What does it involve, what is the desired result, was the desired result achieved, was it worth the time/money spent? It is not mentioned all of the time. Many think that the end result will be an improvement of some kind. Often it’s supposed to improve the value somehow.
twotalon
twotalon,
I know you meant your post to be rhetorical, but I agree. “Tune” is a non-specific term. Like “magnum.”
B.B.
“Rhetorical” TwoTalon,
Exactly… “tuning” is actually gun modifications or enhancements (like moly lube) but…what were the baseline characteristics of the gun before the mods? Which component in the gun had the greatest effect on accuracy or other performance criteria? Which characteristic did you want to improve most?
Tuning is a euphemism that has caught on with firearms and airguns and other devices such as automobile suspensions, “she’s got a Euro tuned rally package” means just about…. well, nothing?
Good morning B.B.,
Dandruff on a white coat–a wonderful way to start the day, thanks.
OJ–Welcome! A few years ago a lot of us were right where you are now. What are your interests and hasn’t the air gun world really changed?
Bruce
B.B.,
As you said, a chronograph can tell you a great deal about your airguns. I learned that my 25-year old .177 R1 was down to just 10 ft lbs muzzle energy. Time for a new mainspring and piston seal!
One thing does annoy me, though. Shooting Chronys are supposed to be accurate within 1% but people will post readings that include the frational part (for example, 870.5 fps). That digit past the decimal point is statistically irrelevant so why bother?
By the way, is this your first blog article with no photos?
Paul in Liberty County
Paul,
No, I have plenty of other reports with no photos. However, I do like to put photos in most articles for interest.
As for the fractional reading, it bothers me, too. So I round off.
B.B.
To all you nay Sayers,
It’s not that you don’t need a chrony! Rather it’s that you don’t KNOW you need one.
I don’t do spreadsheets. But my Alpha Chrony has become indispensable to me. Case in point, I use it to determine optimum pressure curve for my pcp’s. Usually the pressure curve starts some what lower than the manufacturer states. At least on my Disco it did.
With my Sumatra it is even more indispensable as that has adjustable power and it can start lower than max fill with low power settings or up to 400 fps higher with full power setting.
Then I had a CO2 gun which really sounded weak and I thought some thing was wrong with it. But the chronograph showed me it was shooting at factory specs. Just sounds quieter than other CO2 guns.
Also used it with Chinese springers to prove some thing was wrong with the gun. Ranged from 350 fps to 850 fps on any given five shot string. Lot easier to tell the seller that than to say “well it sounds weak on 2 – 3 of 5 shots.”
There are dozens of other uses for a chronograph also. Best $100 I ever spent. Of course I had one WAY before I got into air guns. Since I did a LOT of competition shooting in my younger days, it was indispensable in developing good accurate loads for my competition guns!
BB,
Loved that “dandruff on a white coat”! The chrony will be added to my tool box soon as I finish acquiring a few more reloading items.
Edith,
I like the quotes put in where traditionally the photos would be. Naturally the dandruff ‘Tom-ism’ would be first!
ka
I am still the tadpole here but I know that most of the rest of you are full fledged, fat, frogs. This is why I make sure my computer is turned off when I go to bed at night, so that all that croaking doesn’t keep me from a good night’s sleep.
-Chuck
Chuck
It isn’t easy being green.
“Then there are the folks who think that if a multi-pump is powerful on just 10 pumps, it should crack like a .22 on 20.”
Ha! So true. Just go to youtube and watch these people say things like, “The box says 10 pumps max, but I put in 18. I wouldn’t put in 24 pumps, though. That might ruin the gun!” Brilliant.
Another common thing on youtube is people reviewing cheaper airguns like the 1377c, advising their viewers that it does not actually shoot BB’s!
Malcolm,my favorite is a video titled something like “powerful airguns that break the speed of sound”
In it an unknowing father videos himself dryfiring about 10 of his son’s springers for our amusement!
“My Marauder is so quiet.”
“How quiet is your Marauder?”
“My Marauder is so quiet I need a Chrony just to tell if it’s firing.”
Buda Bum!
“Can’t you hear it hit the target?”
“You have to hit the target first.”
Buda Bump, Ching!!!
OJ,
welcome to the club. A word of warning – airguns are highly addictive, worse than potato (or is it potatoe?) chips. You can’t stop at one. I own a Chrony “A” – it will store up to 30 shots in 10 shot strings, produce high, low, mean and standard deviation numbers and for the occassional user, is perfect. It helped me diagnose a sick RWS 350 (leaking breech seal) and recently I used it to “tune” my Marauder to give me 50 healthy shots at a 2,000 psi fill and still maintain around 14 ft.lbs of energy at the muzzle. Sure, you can do without a chronograph, just like millions of powder shooters that don’t bother reloading but just shoot the factory ammo. Same for thousands of airgunners who just bought a rifle to rid the yard of squirrels. It won’t hurt but it does limit how deeply you want to get into this sport.
Finally, BB, who you calling “fat” and did you hear about the cow from minsk?
Fred PRoNJ
Fred,
Is the cow the color of pinsk? 😉
B.B.
You want vaudeville jokes? Take this:
The only cow in a small town in Poland stopped giving milk. The people did some research and found that they could buy a cow from Moscow for 2,000 rubles, or one from Minsk for 500 rubles. Being frugal, they bought the cow from Minsk.
The cow was wonderful. It produced lots of milk all the time, and the people were amazed and very happy.They decided to acquire a bull to mate with the cow and produce more cows like it. Then they would never have to worry about the milk supply again.
They bought a bull and put it in the pasture with their beloved cow. However, whenever the bull came close to the cow, the cow would move away. No matter what approach the bull tried, the cow would move away from the bull and he could not succeed in his quest.
The people were very upset and decided to ask their wise Rabbi what to do.
They told the Rabbi what was happening.They explained: “Whenever the bull approaches our cow, she moves away. If he approaches from the back, she moves forward. When he approaches her from the front, she backs off. An approach from the side and she just walks away to the other side.”
The Rabbi pondered this for a while and asked, “Did you buy this cow from Minsk?” The people were amazed & dumbfounded, since they had never mentioned where they had gotten the cow.
“You are truly a wise Rabbi,” they said. “How did you know we got the cow from Minsk?”
The Rabbi answered sadly, “My wife is from Minsk.”
Bada Boom.
Fred PRoNJ
Fred,
Perfect. That reminds me of the time my wife and I took a trip to Oregon and on the way while stopped for gas the attendant asked where we were from. I told him from LA. He said the worst sex I ever had was in LA. When I got back in the car my wife wanted to know what all the chatter was about. I said he knows you.
ka
KA,
Another good one!! Good way to start the weekend.
-Chuck
Thanks Fred,
This one gets passed along.
-Chuck
Oh Boy, sure can tell it’s Friday!
ka
In today’s article B.B. talks about the common misconception in newbie pcp owners that fill pressure has a direct correlation to the power curve and usable shot count.
“A correlation would be someone who buys a new car and then gets mad because it won’t go as fast as the speedometer indicates at the top end. Almost every car is like that, but nobody ever goes that fast, so nobody notices.”
Another automobile analogy is, “why won’t my car go any faster when it has a full tank of gas?!!”
Here’s one of my favorite archived articles that B.B. did on the subject:
/blog/2008/12/understanding-the-performancepower-curve-of-a-pcp/
kevin
Kevin,
Your comment about a car going faster with a full tank of gas reminds me of a conversation I had once with my wife. She likes to wait until a car is just about out of gas, then put only a little bit in. I prefer to keep at least a quarter tank in at all times, and top it off when I buy gas.
I told her, “The car doesn’t use any less gas when you only put a few gallons in at a time.”
She replied, “Of course it uses less that way”.
“Why?” I asked.
“Because with a full tank it is heavier, so it takes more gas to move it.”
What could I say? She was right!
Les
Yes, but there’s 3 things that counterbalance that:
1) Stopping for gas in of itself uses gas… especially if you end up waiting in line. Even if you don’t, the slow down/shut off/restart cycle at the gas pump is wasteful, and you gain something by minimizing the gas stops
2) Running the tank low makes it more susceptible to collecting condensation on the inside. Water in the fuel can cause a variety of problems, and keeping the tank more reduces that possibility
3) Running the tank low consistently might increase the chance of running out of fuel. If you do that in a modern fuel-injected car the invariable restart attempts will run the electric fuel pump while it is dry. They don’t like to do that, and this can shorten their lifespan
Always keep the gas tank full. I have over 80,000 miles of motorcycle trips and I have learned never pass up a chance to get gas or to go to the bathroom.
-Chuck
Ahhhh… I see…. try to keep one tank full, one tank empty….
Prudent advice!!!
Funny…and good philosophy.
-Chuck
Yes. Restores balance to the universe.
Oh, Great! Now we’re Masters of the Universe!
Just don’t get your yin mixed up with your yang :).
Rikib, here’s one for you:
When your only tool is a hammer, all problems start looking like nails.
ka
This very much apply to some people using Duct Tape, when they buy the BIG roll and they see how sticky it is they just go beserk with the thing and put some everywhere.
J-F
KA,
Wasn’t ignoring your post, just missed it I guess. I must only own a screwdriver as all my problems in life are screwy 🙂 .
rikib
rikib,
When blonds are having more fun, do they know it?
ka
KA,
Doubt it, but I’m a bad one to ask, ex was a blonde! 🙂
rikib
Thanks for the comedy guys. It was needed.
Here’s my contribution.
“…..So my boyfriend bought a jeep…..what’s yours guys opinion on what he should do?”
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f11/96-jeep-cherokee-need-opinions-1149721/
kevin
Ugh. Thanks for reminding me why I don’t like most forums.
You’re too serious this morning.
Kevin,
Now that jeep “rant” is a classic! He described every guys dream girl. I wish such a gal existed. I thought, with the first paragraph, it was going to be a flaming rant but the guy has both feet on the ground and speaks the truth. But, alas, I don’t think many girls will get past that first paragraph let alone identify with or understand what he’s saying…except maybe Edith and we can’t all marry Edith, plus that lucky Tom got there first.
-Chuck
Well Chuck, you prompted me to really read the entire post. Originally I didn’t get past the opening lines. And now all I can say is this – if anyone ever talked to my daughter that way, I’d be sorely tempted to reach for something more potent than an airgun. Wouldn’t do it, but I’d sure be tempted.
If it’s supposed to be a joke, well… that guy shouldn’t quit his day job. If it’s not, well, if this really reflects his attitude may God help the poor girl who gets involved with him. Odds are she’d need it.
In any event what he describes is not every guy’s dream girl by any stretch. There’s a lot to be said for a girl who is quite capable of setting a man straight when he’s about to make a major mistake, and not automatically go along with every stupid, goofball idea that pops into his head.
Vince,
You mean there’s an option of not going along with every goofball idea? Why didn’t someone tell me this before now? 🙂
Edith
Consider yourself told!!!
Agreed. His “redneck” rant tickled me. Although I fear he’s serious I found it so ridiculous and absurd I had to post it. May God help him if he ever runs into my wife. Chalk this up as one more piece of evidence that I have a warped sense of humor.
kevin
Kevin, from back in my (more heavily) motorhead days I knew guys like that.
Vince and Kevin,
If I were to hear the same voice inflections you heard in his posting I would agree with you. I have a daughter also and I would be enraged if anyone spoke to her in a condescending manner. I didn’t pick up on it that way. I still think he has a valid point in that sharing goes a long way toward a relationship. Incidentally, there was nothing in the posting that indicated the other person was his girlfriend. Almost everyone on that blog thought it was a girl asking, though. Interesting.
-Chuck
Well, except the opening sentence does say “my boyfriend” normally that implies the author is a female.
Nope. Didn’t hear any inflections. It was strictly the substance and meaning of the words.
Ditch the b—ch. Keep the Jeep.
ka
Here is the best non-standard use my chrony yet:
My 12 year old boys have used it to learn about variability and statistics by testing their arsenal of Nerf guns. I think there is almost nothing better than finding a good way to make math interesting to kids. You would be surprised at that variability on some of those guns! The weak ones are about 20 fps, but the strong ones can push upwards of 80 fps, and the same gun type can vary by 15.
And you have to love the BC of those wonderful Nerf darts – how does 0.003 sound?
Alan in MI
What does BC mean in relation to the nerf darts?
OJ,
BC= Ballistic Coefficient. With a BC of 0.003 apparently it doesn’t mean much!
Wikipedia: In ballistics, the ballistic coefficient (BC) of a body is a measure of its ability to overcome air resistance in flight. It is inversely proportional to the deceleration—a high number indicates a low deceleration. BC is a function of mass, diameter, and drag coefficient. It is given by the mass of the object divided by the diameter squared that it presents to the airflow divided by a dimensionless constant i that relates to the aerodynamics of its shape.
Nerf Darts slow down very quickly, losing what little energy they started out with even faster.
ka
Thanks, it has been a while since I have heard those words, so I am dusting cobwebs off, but it is coming back to me, albeit slowly:)
BB,
I’m on my third Shooting Chrony; shot up the first 2 and got an replacement bargin each time with their upgrade program. Usually only takes one big bore hit to make the sensors close their eyes.
For somebody who has never seen the inside of any of their airguns, maybe they don’t need a chrony. But if you like to take stuff apart and make it better, a chrony is just another handy tool to have. My wife says I am an engineer by nature (that is her cross to bear), and almost everything we own has been modified to make it better or different or last longer, or been destroyed in the process. Even the coffee grinder is modiified. So its never too long before I have an almost new airgun laying in pieces on my work bench. It’s always nice to be able to quantify you improvements, and failures, too.
For $100, my Chrony has given me a lot of entertainment.
Lloyd
How fast can you throw that coffee grinder through the Chrony screens?
I’m trying to get it to pitch one bean at a time but the accuracy is nothing to brag about.
Lloyd
Please forgive me for asking a non-related question but I read your 2007 article regarding the pump-assist Benjamin 392 with special interest. I fervently began to pursue purchasing the gun only to discover, sadly, that Pyramyd AIR discontinued selling this model. Do you have a resource that you would recommend to convert an existing multi-pump to such a modification? I have a new Benjamin Steroid 392 and a few Sheridan Silver Streaks. I would probably choose the Steroid 392 for such a modification if you would have a contact resource. Thank you for any information/recommendations.
How about Tim at MAC-1 Airguns?
FX Fanatic,
First of all, you can write about anything at any time on this blog, so there is no need to ever apologize for being off-topic.
Second, welcome to the bog! I hope you will stay with us and become a regular contributor.
Third, there were probably fewer than 20 pump-assist Benjamin 392s ever built. Most shooters thought the extra $100+ was too much for such an option. Pyramyd AIR didn’t really discontinue the modification. It was more a case of the buyers stayed away in droves.
I happen to own one and it is more of a curiosity than a viable option. It works as advertised, and as I reported, but all it does is shave off a few pounds of pumping effort. And since the 392 isn’t that difficult to pump to begin with, the value of the benefit can be hard to see.
However, that probably doesn’t satisfy you. You are intrigued by the modification and now find the world has excluded you from being a possible buyer. What can I do to help you? Do you want another test report?
B.B.
When Rich chronoed my B30 while tuning, he found that it shot only 500 fps. The mainspring was in three pieces. After his tune, it was 900 fps, and I truly savor that number. So what this has taught me about chronographs is…to send my guns to Rich! He he. I will admit that a chronograph is mandatory for those doing load development for firearms. BUT, I just plan to use the published data! I guess that I am fixated at some point in my frog development. But at least I won’t grow one of those horrible pouches below the mouth which inflate and glisten as the frogs call for a mate.
Chuck, yes the blood in the water is a big drawback for the bangstick, but it would apply also for the Shark Dart which is only good for one shot. You would have to carry a whole stack and look like an underwater version of the cavemen in Quest for Fire who walked around with as many sticks as they could carry. By the way, the full name is the Farallon Shark Dart made for the Navy Seals in the 70s but since discontinued. It seems to have been horribly effective on sharks but not worth the weight penalty since the shark threat is not that great for the Seals. Stay safe diving and watch your depth. I’ll let you know about the waterproof NV–good for all amphibians.
I had a run in with the vagaries of .22 LR ammo. In order to avoid lugging my Wolf Target Match ammo to Hawaii to shoot my Anschutz, I thought I would use the brands available so bought a brick (500) of Federal Champion high velocity. What do you know but I had to use a great deal of force to close the bolt. Now why would that be since the ammo was listed as .22LR? Extra case length for more powder? I pictured the parts of the bolt grinding against each other and wearing out prematurely. So, I tried a box of CCI standard velocity .22LR. What do you know but it was even harder to close the bolt!? That was obviously out. Naturally tight-fisted, I tried to use as much of the Federal as I could but gave it away after 150 odd rounds. It wouldn’t go flush in the cylinder of my Single Six and I was not going to jeopardize a $2500 rifle for $30 of ammo. The rifle seems okay and afterwards I shot 10 Wolf rounds into less than a half inch at 50 yards which is close to my test target. You don’t suppose I did some permanent underlying damage to the rifle, do you?
Any candidates for the most expensive configuration of firearms to shoot? How about an AR chambered for .50 Beowulf and a SW .500 magnum revolver? It wasn’t easy to sit next to either.
Matt61
Matt61, I doubt you hurt your rifle. A bolt action .22 of quality is very tough. As to the Sharks, a Glock 17 has a quick mod to allow it to fire and function underwater. It only works with the 9 mm Par. round. I don’t know how easy is is to obtain the needed part. But I’ll bet it would work at close range.
Mike
I think you are talking about firing pin spring cups for the Glock 17 to assist in firing underwater. Lone Wolf had them last time I was browsing for around $10 or so, but if I remember correctly the are an LE only item for some reason. I have no experience with them besides seeing them around on Glock accessory websites though…
Yes, Glock calls it the Firing Pin Channel Sleeve. It is modified with groves to let the water through.
As far as I know, it is legal to own but Glock’s policy is to only sell it to Law Enforcement. I guess they think someone may try to rob a bank with it……..underwater.
Mike
I see the potential for scuba muggings! I mean…..they’re practically helpless,their knives have no points!!!
Matt,
I doubt the case length is that far out, unless they come out crinkled — that would be bad. The bullet and/or case may be just enough longer that you can detect the additional force required to imprint the rifling on the bullet, or the diameter of the case may be just a bit bigger than your match ammunition. Match chambers are supposed to be tight, so the bright side is that you confirmed that it is :). One thing I might advise is that many people do not like to shoot copper-washed ammo in match rifles. Whether it does any harm or not, I don’t know (and actually doubt it), but that’s a nice barrel, why risk it (unless Anschutz OK’s it); buy a Savage to shoot whatever you want! One option, Federal Automatch (AM22) is pure lead, available at most stores in bulk, and though it is high velocity, most lots of it work pretty well for informal target shooting — it has turned in many .5″ or smaller groups for me at 50 yards. About $12 per 330 last time I bought some. I also like Remington sub-sonic hollowpoints (soft lead as well) based on preliminary results at 100 yards (they should be good at 50, but I haven’t gotten around to testing it), still much cheaper than match ammo. YMMV :).
Matt61,
Sleep easy. If your bolt closed and you only shot the few rounds you mentioned your anschutz is fine.
Cheap bulk ammo has very loose specs. The copper wash is a thin coating but combined with the steel core that is done in 10 million runs you end up with oversize. The bulk rounds are usually very dry compared to well lubed wolf match.
Just like with airguns I try cheap ammo first in my rimfires but usually they won’t shoot well until you get into ammo with tighter specs, lower runs and that costs more money. Was pleasantly surprised at the 38 gr american eagle stuff last summer and that’s cheap.
kevin
Thanks for the info and reassurance about my Anschutz. Hopefully, the quality that I paid for includes surviving mistakes like this. Thanks too for the advice on different ammo brands, but I have learned my lesson. I have over 5000 rounds of the Wolf ammo laid up and that should keep me going for the foreseeable future.
Matt61
Off topic…waaaayyyyy of topic.
Just got back from our tour of the tank barns I mentioned last month.
Lord Strathcona Horse is the Canadian Tank regiment in Afghanistan and they are based in Edmonton where I live. I supply all thier photographic needs and for those who didn’t seem my earlier post I had wangled a tour for myself and my two young boys (8 & 10).
Holy crap!
I expected we’d get a 1/2 hour look around and be on our way, but we were there nearly 4 hours.
We got full tours (plus a short ride) in a Leopard II. We got to go through the garage where a bunch of them were in various states for teardown and rebuild before being sent back in theatre.
We got the same deal with the Lav 25’s (the Canadian version of your Stryker).
We got to play for a 1/2 hour on the tank ‘firing simulator’…the best video game in the world, at the controls of a complete tank interior mockup.
And if that wasn’t enough…when we left they had a package for the boys with regimental t-shirts, ball caps and a hardcover history of the regiment, which dates back to the 1880’s.
I can’t say enough about how polite and professional these people are, and it reinforces my strong beliefs that no matter what you feel about the west involvement in Iraq/Afghanistan you absolutely must support the troops who are over there.
It’s going to be hours before I can peel this grin off of my face.
Congratulations, that sounds terrific. But you know those guys had fun showing you their equipment. 🙂 And that’s a great name–the Lord Strathcona Horse.
On a different note, my Stephen Hunter book, called I, Sniper, mentioned that there is a high correlation between top shooters and photographers–something about a love for precise mechanisms perhaps. Anyway, you would seem to be part of a trend.
Matt61
CBSD Despite the gun and airgun restrictions you have to deal with up in the Great White North, do you find that many Canadians are still interested in or own airguns? Is it the “default” gun hobby due to the firearms laws, as it has become in the UK and Europe? Airguns are sure popular in the UK.
I can’t talk about where cbsd but here in french-Canadian Quebec pretty much all guns are evil.
My lovely girlfriend and mother of my kids was quite understable of my hobby after I explained and showed her what all of this was about and I got a very nice gun safe for my birthday this year and when my mother in law (who was having diner at our place over the new year) almost left the house when she was told about it (where’s the downside your gonna tell me) but she just didn’t want to hear anything about it. Saying she couldn’t possibly sleep in a house where there are guns (YAY FOR ME) of any kind, firearm, airgun, airsoft, non firing replica (I have a very Denix Mauser broom handle replica) and it’s all the same… Guns = EVIL.
I picked my mother in law because it was recent and close to me but there are a LOT of people like her around here and often hunters are also perceived as red necks dummies (which frankly they often are around here) and bring a bad rep around all things guns related by hunting out of season and being all around jerks. Pretty much all gun aficionados keep a very low profile.
I think there’s a very high level of misinformation and complete ignorance about the subject.
A few weeks ago some old man at Wally World wanted to buy a Red Ryder to keep the squirrels out of it’s bird feeders and I was trying to explain to him that the power was too high to be safe for the little critters but not high enough to kill the thing without whacking it with the butt of the gun and I used to work with the public and am pretty good at explaining things and convincing others to my being right (in french anyways) but he didn’t want to hear about it and wanted the cheap 45$ BB gun to shoot the critters and he’s the type of people who buy gun here and talk about and give us a bad rep. What will his neighbor who happens to feed the squirrels do when he sees the injured squirrel agonising on his patio? More bad publicity that’s what.
Sorry for the rant… I’m getting down my soap box now.
I’m not in favor of free guns to anyone who has the money to buy it but I think we could get regulations that are safe for the people in general yet doesn’t keep us from enjoying our hobby/pastime.
I’m looking at some of the laws we have right now and I’m not seing HOW they make things safer…
JF
J-F,
I agree with most of what you said. All except for the part that suggest a law for the terminally stupid. I don’t know what the answer is, but laws just don’t seem to work. Somehow there has to be a practical application/education something that people can gauge what they’re buying vs. what they’re planning on using. Perhaps the sales person should be required to bring in another associate before a sale is made to a person not hearing reason? I guess that’s shaping up to be another regulation/law, isn’t it? hmmm. I have seen a sale refused at a gun store in SoCal recently because the guy behind the counter didn’t feel right about the sale.
ka
Wait! It’s late, and I gotta re- read your post. I might need a “do-over” on my comment to your comment. I’ll read it in the morning…
ka
Sorry I just tried to re-read my own post and I’m also finding it a bit confusing. I shouldn’t write such long posts with my iPhone (I agree with Edith and am too waiting for the next version of the iPad) as it’s a bit hard to read it back before posting.
What I was trying to say his people need to be educated.
You have to pass a test to get a drivers license because driving a car can be a dangerous things if you don’t know what you’re doing… it should be the same before you get to use guns BUT DMV’s are everywhere and accessible and it should be the same for guns.
I’m trying to get my license here and IT’S A PAIN, I have to take classes that aren’t given close to home, are not available at convenient times for me but they are the only ones available, but I still have to wait a few months to take the class because they don’t give it often but even after taking said class (assuming I passed the exam at the end) I still have to wait another 2 to 4 months (how’s that for precision) to actually get my license… and that, to me, is unacceptable.
J-F
JF,
The big difference in the situation in Canada vs. in the US is that here, gun ownership is a constitutional right, not a priviledge like driving a car is.
We are all born with the right to own a gun.
This is not to say there aren’t those who would like to take that right away.
Les
If it was a privilege maybe some people would be more careful of what they do with it and maybe it should be taken away from some people?
J-F
So much to say here on the subject. The fact is making gun ownership a privilege takes the rights away from the law abiding citizenry. The breakdown isn’t at the rights level, rather at the judicial level. Laws are in place that are being broken, arrests are being made and convictions are either dropped, reduced, or plea bargained away. The criminal is back out on the street to perfect his criminal activity.
In this country, felons cannot own or possess a firearm. But once back on the street they acquire a stolen one and commit more crime, why? BECAUSE CRIMINALS COMMIT CRIMES! Lock ’em up and put them to work repairing roads or something useful instead of just sitting in a cell planning another crime and being ‘rehabilitated’. If the criminal killed, than PLEASE, FOR THE SAFETY OF THE PUBLIC, USE THE DEATH SENTENCE!! That’s what we keep voting for!
Now that’s a rant…
ka
‘Do-over’; Nope, all’s good! 🙂
ka
You are right. Most of the laws don’t make things safer. Criminals don’t follow the law…….no surprise there.
Mike
Yup, I’m always amazed at the thinking up here (Canada).
Take the guns away from everyone and no one will have them, hence crime will go down, because the criminal won’t be able to go buy a gun at his neighbourhood gun store.
Like that’s where they’re getting them now!!
Just like our oh so wonderful gun registry program.
Gov agent 1-Please everyone come register your guns
Gov agent 2-We’re gonna make two lines, the left lane will be for civilians and the right lane will be for criminals…
Gov agents to superior – Sir I don’t what’s happening… There’s no one in the left lane… How is this going to help us fight crime ?
Superior to agents – it’ not gonna help us do anything but people are gonna think that by registering the guns they will be safer and vote for us and THAT is important.
JF
The Chronograph is a vital piece of equipment for any serious airgunner who cares to know about the condition and performance of his guns under continuous and changing conditions, before and after modifications, and when comparing different pellet brands/styles/weights. If you are reading this blog, you’re one of us…so get a chrony. If you want to shoot cans with an open-sighted Wally-World Gamo and nothing more…you’re not reading this and no, you don’t need one.
That said, B.B. you have long been generously accepting of the fact that so many (spring) airguns display a gun-to-gun variance in terms of manufacturing tolerance and resulting performance. So many new guns end up getting returned for being defective right out of the box! My first RWS 350 Pro Compact arrived shooting at 600fps and was acknowledged to be defective and replaced by Umarex. Second one good for 1,500 rounds, then a broken spring (with only proper care)! I guess it’s just the result of this being such a relatively small industry, but when you get to the price point of say, the RWS Dianas, it seems inexcusable to me. I assumed German engineering and precision machining was for real, but maybe that isn’t meant to apply to some of their airguns. If you test 100 engines from the assembly line of even the cheapest cars available for sale in this country, they will display identical internal tolerances and produce within a handful of the same horsepower under the same conditions. Why must the guts of $300 spring airguns have a “personality” all their own? Excuse the rant…a very good reason to own a chrony though.
One quick piece of advice to all chrony users – be sure to shoot on a parallel plane with your chrony; if you don’t, you’ll either a) get a false reading that will be a bit slower than true velocity or b) you’ll shoot your chrony, like I did. Safe shooting all!
Ken,
I must have missed something along the way. Your opening paragraph seems to indicate that YOU determine who is welcome here and who is not. We must own a chrony… and we dare not be plinking!
rikib
“If you want to shoot cans with an open-sighted Wally-World Gamo and nothing more…you’re not reading this and no, you don’t need one.” Funny, that’s pretty much what I was doing when I started reading this blog. Because it’s fun.
THIS IS NOT A BLOG DEDICATED TO THE HARD CORE COMPETITOR OR HUNTER. There’s something here for everyone. Otherwise BB wouldn’t post many of the blogs that he does and it wouldn’t be nearly as interesting. BB guns? Never! Airsoft? Less than never! What about blogs on vintage or lower grade guns like the Hyscore 805 or my series on the GT600, the Chinese sidelever or the B3? These are plinking guns – that is, fun guns – best used for nailing cans or other reactive targets in the back yard.
With regards to chrony angle error – the error due to angle is small. At 5 degrees (which is quite noticeable) the difference in traversed flight path is about .35%, which is less than the accuracy of the Shooting Chrony itself (+/- .5%). With a 700fps gun that’s less than 3fps. So it is unlikely that major deviations are from a lack of a parallel flight path.
As I see it the only way to use a chrony accurately… and I mean REALLY accurately… is to level it and have a level mounted on the gun as well. But I imagine that only serious airgunner (not me!) goes through the trouble to do that…
Ken,
I agree that anyone who reads this is “one of us.” No initiation rites or special equipment required to participate (including chronographs).
Don’t know how a simple blog about the benefits of a piece of ancillary equipment can become so testy.
Buy guns, shoot guns, be safe with guns. Have fun! That’s what this blog is all about. If you don’t want to buy a chronograph…don’t.
No rules, just right 🙂
Edith
“No rules”… is that the rule?
😛
Gulp…I am eating my words as fast as I can chew! My ass-umptions based solely on my own airgunning history have proven me VERY wrong, and I hope I have not spoiled my opportunity to become part of this great adult airgunning community. I love plinking cans, bottle caps and old ping-pong balls in the back yard with my 10- and 8-year old daughters with our Red Rider and 766, but I’ve never tested the performance of these guns in any scientific manner, nor did it occur to me that anyone else might want to. I didn’t even know until the purchase of the RWS that there was an entire community of passionate airgun shooters out here sharing ideas, experiences and support. My silly ass-umption upon discovering the “serious world of adult airgunning” was that there was a thick black line between plinkers and “serious shooters” and by-golly, I had become a “serious shooter” lol. I now realize there are many, many shooters who may solely enjoy the relaxation of plinking (with guns at ALL ranges in the price and performance spectrum) but who very much wish to know how their guns are performing or who may simply enjoy owning the chrony just as we enjoy accessories to any hobby or sport. To heap on another generous helping of embarassment, if I had actually taken the time to read this blog consistently before posting, I would have actually gotten to know you good folks are here and thriving, and could have saved myself the awful embarrassment. Okay…I feel sufficiently flogged for now…off to bed, but I can’t wait to chrony the Red Rider tomorrow!
Ken
Don’t sweat it. Misunderstandings are a certainty, especially in an informal written format like this one. Please do stick around, and feel free to share any airgun experiences or insights (or any insights for that matter) with the rest of us.
Ken,
I think we have all experienced some form of embarrassment on this blog, whether through inexperience, hasty comments, or innocent typos. Join the crowd, lower yourself to our level, and join in on the professional benefits BB and Edith have to offer.
I started out like you and accidentally found this blog. Best thing that ever happened to me on the Internet.
I think what happened, in my case, is I started plinking for the pure fun of it and then got caught up in trying to find out just how accurate I could possibly be. Many guns, pellets and accessories later I’m still trying to find out. From the sounds of it everyone else on this blog is still trying, too. So come on and have fun trying to do the impossible with us. It’ll only cost you few thousand dollars and your kids will experience something very few kids will get to these days – bonding with dad (and even mom, as we’ve seen here on this blog).
-Chuck
Ken,
RE: “I hope I have not spoiled my opportunity to become part of this great adult airgunning community.”
Too late. You’re already part of this airgunning community LOL! We’ve all tripped over our own tongues a time or two. You’re in familiar company. Good to see you contributing.
kevin
Ken,
A tadpole is unable to stick it’s foot in mouth… enjoy your frog status! 🙂
ka
Great to be part of a super group of enthusiasts…thanks for setting me straight folks, and opening me up to expanded enjoyment of our sport! See you back here soon.
BB:
The only Chrony I have had access to belongs to my son in law (Good Lad).
The type that fits to the end of the barrel of the rifle.
Predictably it ended up being shot by mistake and one of the mounts blown away.
He substituted the mount with an elastic band but now you can’t tell what the ‘angle of the dangle’ is,especially at the moment of taking a shot.
The measurements are all over the shop.
Are there some Chrony’s just not worth bothering with?
Cheers,
DaveUK
Hi Dave !When i was just a child closest thing to chrony to me was one massive candle.After shooting in that candle from point blank i would measure depth of penetration in wax 🙂 .Chronograph -don’t have it -don’t need it, i am still using my ballistic jelly for power / penetration tests .Cheers 😉
Milan:
Well more by luck than design,I still have a cut off length of Scaffold plank that iv’e used as a back stop for several years.
A historical record of every type pellet and airgun I have shot for the last 8 years.(sadly not many)
Very rudimentary but still a useful point of reference when shooting different pellets and air guns.
This plank has now been elevated above that of mere backstop 🙂
DaveUK
Dave,
I tested one of those end-of-the-muzzle chronographs like your son-in-law has. The distance between the start and stop screen is about two inches, so the accuracy of the instrument is dubious. However, it does immediately display a number that looks very authoritative, and that is why many people like it. And there is also the very small package that attracts shooters.
I thought that kind of chronograph would be too untrustworthy to bother with, but when I tested it in tandem with my Oehler 35P, it gave results within just a few f.p.s. of the larger instrument. For example 789 f.p.s. instead of 796 f.p.s. That is so close that I have to say that there is virtually no difference.
So my answer os , “No.” I don’t think there is an electronic chronograph that is not worth fooling with.
On the other hand, the Cardews used to make and sell a small mechanical chronograph they called a C.A.R.D. It was a miniature ballistic pendulum. For its time (the ’70s) it was okay, because there wasn’t much to compare to, but against today’s electronic chronographs it seems pretty useless and crude.
B.B.
BB:
Thanks for that.
The price of the muzzle fitted Chrono over here is about $55,so if I get one,best be careful when using it.
By which I mean,don’t let my son in law use it 🙂
DaveUK
I have not gotten directly to the weekend topic, so here is my take.
Do you need a chrono? Yes and no. Depends on what you are doing, and if the extra information would be useful to you or not.
If you just want to take a gun out of the box and shoot it, and will accept whatever it does, then shoot it until it dies and buy another one then you don’t need a chrono.
If you get a PCP that has no easy adjustment other than fill pressure and pellet weight then you can work around the need for a chrono by doing a lot of shooting at different pressures and different pellet weights while you watch your group sizes and POI. You can eventually figure out what pellet, fill pressure, and shot count to work with. A long and slow process , but you can end up with practical results if you set up a plan for your testing procedure and stick to it.
A PCP with numerous adjustments will drive you nuts. Even with a chrono at times. Everything interacts. You could always just shoot it the way it came out of the box and follow the previous procedure to get something reasonable in some cases. Probably not the best, but it will work if you are lucky. There could be much hair pulling if things are not going well. A chrono will give you information that will tell you if what you are doing is working or not.
Springers , pumpers, and CO2….
If they are shooting good then you don’t have to worry too much about it, but what if they are squirrely? What’s wrong? A chrono can tell you if velocity is erratic or running unusually slow. This indicates some kind of problem that can probably be fixed. A chrono is useful then.
If the chrono says that things SHOULD be working right but they are not, then you start looking for other causes for your problem.
As previously mentioned, a chrono gives you a baseline for the gun’s performance. Over time things change. It may get better or worse. Great if it gets better, not so great if it gets worse.
I have mentioned before that I am not into ‘power tunes’. If a gun is working within reasonable limits for what it should do then I don’t mind. A little touchup here and there to make things smoother or prolong the life of the gun are usually about all I am really interested in. Running smooth and shooting good. A chrono is not needed for some of it.
twotalon
I just got off the phone with a friend in Minnesota. He said that since early this morning the snow has fallen to nearly waist high and it is still falling. The temperature has dropped way below zero and the north wind is increasing. His wife has done nothing but look through the kitchen window all day.
He says that if it gets much worse, he may have to let her in.
Fred PRoNJ
Fred PRoNJ,
We’ve still got a little snow here but blue skies. Should get into the mid 50’s today. In an hour I’ve got guys showing up for an airgun shoot. I get to shoot several airguns today for the first time. Can’t wait. An edgun and a new fx royale are also on the way to my range. Can’t wait to shoot those.
kevin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vfSk-6tIvo&feature=related
Fred
“…he may have to let her in.” HILARIOUS. JFOMC (just fell off my chair)
Pellet and bullet velocities are important to me for several reasons:
1-It establishes a base line to determine the “health” of the gun over the future of my ownership
2-It aids me in selling airguns at their true value that I don’t want to keep
3-It helps to quickly identify the power curve on a pcp
4-Knowing muzzle velocity helps to calculate energy downrange so I can be assured that I can dispatch pests humanely
A chronograph is a tool. Makes my life easier. I also own a spanner wrench that I use to re-parallax old firearm scopes that I’m now installing on pellet guns. Could I still accomplish these tasks without a chronograph or spanner wrench? Of course. But it takes less time and is easier with the tool built for the task.
I’m thinking of changing my log in name to Mr. Easy.
If you don’t need to know velocity or don’t care about velocity you’re still a real airgunner. You’re just not as needy as me. If you are curious or do need to know pellet velocity, as I’ve said here before, you can calculate pellet velocity without a chronograph. You need to shoot at two different distances, measure pellet drop, know the bc of your pellet and use this calculator:
http://www.airgunexpo.com/calc/calc_mve.cfm
kevin
Thanks, Brian, for the suggestion. I had contacted Tim @ Mac1 shortly before I posed the question on the blog. He informed me that I could get the steroid treatment, then have it referred for the pump assist mod. However, he reminded me that this would void any warranty that would be associated with his work for the steroid treatment (understandably). So, he does not provide that service.
Thank you, Mr. Pelletier, for your comprehensive comments and invitation to provide additional information about the pump assist feature. The main reason I thought this might be advantageous is because Tim McMurray discouraged the use of a scope due to the manner in which it would need to be mounted and how that may affect pumping the gun. I have a Steroid 392 with a Williams peep sight installed and that is a wonderful set-up. However, I am 63 years old and my vision is failing so the target is not so clear as I would prefer and, consequently, I thought there may be a great advantage in scoping the gun. Perhaps you have a thought about scope installment that would be quite compatible with a Silver Streak that I have not considered. If so, I would appreciate you directing me to the previous blog as I’m quite certain you have already discussed that topic. For some reason I’m not very adept in searching past topics even though I use the “SEARCH” function at the top of this page. Thanks again for providing such an informative blog. We, the general public, is so blessed to have a man of your expertise to take the effort to share your wealth of knowledge free of charge no less. Especially in a time when the dollar is so sacred. God bless you.
FX,
Go to the Benjamin rifles on the Pyramyd site click on the acessories and find the Air Venturi mount.This is a very solid mount for your 392. The others can damage the joint between barrel and comp. tube, and the B square isn’t much better it can rip out the threads for the peep sight.
You will need a set a set of Weaver brand rings from Wall Mart. These are very low profile and very strong. I use this set up on my 392 with a Bushnel Banner 4-12×40. I grab the scope ln my left hand, pump in 8 pumps with my right. the scope has never moved with this set up.
If you are at all interested in getting a Chrony, but are not sure you want to spend the money, just watch e-Bay for one – people can’t sell guns there, but they do sell reloading equipment and gun related items they inherit and don’t know what to do with. I got mine there that way, and it was only about $80 for a good beta master. And I know I can sell it for the same amount on the Yellow any time I want. Cost for the use as long as I want it: zero, other than tying up $80.
Alan in MI
twotalon,
Surprised your topic about tunes didn’t garner more attention. You make a great point. When an airgun is advertised as “tuned” what does that mean? It reminds me of firearms that are touted as being “accurized”! What was done? Could mean so many things or so few things LOL!
I learned a lot about airgun tunes in the book The Beeman R1 Supermagnum Air Rifle written by some guy named Tom Gaylord. Multiple tuning techniques on the same gun. Interesting.
Here’s an old bookmark of mine. Prices are outdated but info is still relevant:
http://sonnysan.blogspot.com/2006/03/airgun-tuning-buying-guide-this-guide.html
kevin
Looks like B.B. got a pretty good shot count already with his topic. Guess I wasted my time.
Got another 4,000 pellets and a spare scope yesterday. What will be next?
twotalon
twotalon,
A spare gun for the spare scope?
kevin
I have been fighting down the temptation to get a .20 R9. I also want a better shooting bench.
I am getting paranoid about scopes and rifles. Seems like everything I get needs work or is flat out bad.
twotalon
twotalon,
I’ve owned 3 R9’s. I sold the last one a few months ago. .20 cal, full tune by macarri. He also cut and re-crowned the barrel and put a muzzle brake on it. I just can’t warm up to the R9. I think .20 cal is ideal for the R9 though.
I’ve learned that everything I get that has moving parts or wears a skirt will eventually need work or is flat out bad. LOL!
kevin
twotalon,
What was the new scope you got yesterday? Have you tried the Hawke scopes yet? I have a new 4-12×40 Hawke and I’m realy impresed with it so far.
Loren
I got a cheap leapers 3-9 AO that is supposed to be springer proof. It looks clean, but don’t know how it will work.
twotalon
Loren,
Nice scope! I’ve been drooling over that Hawke for a while, just can’t pony up the dough for one yet. Too many other things on the list, and no budget! From my perspective (tadpole), you’re a Frog on the Blog for having one!!
ka
Is the RWS Model 350 4×32 Air Rifle Scope good? If I can find it somewhere for $20 should I buy it?
Conor
It’s a short, compact scope that compromises somewhat on the optics, maybe because of its size. But it is apparently pretty rugged – Glenn Seiter at Umarex told me that they hold up just fine on the 48’s – and I like the eyepiece adjustment for focus. You can also unscrew the front cap and adjust the objective to eliminate parallax at different ranges as Tom described a little while ago. It’s also a good fit on some fixed-barrel guns where a normal length scope might interfere with the loading port. So it’s not the slickest scope by any stretch, but certainly a decent utility scope.
$20? If I didn’t have 2 already I’d sure buy it…
Vince,
It’s going on my brothers Crosman Raven.
Loren:
Thanks very much for your recommendations about the scope-related information for the set-up for a Benjamin 392. I will do exactly as you have recommended and not worry about damaging the barrel/tube. I assume I can use the same set-up for the Silver Streaks as well.
FX Fanatic
The search feature does not work so great since the blog changed format last year.
To better search the blogs, click under where it says “Historical Archives” on the right of the page. Then enter the keywords for your search in that searchbox.
Alternately, you can do an advanced search on Google and add the address of this blog in the appropriate box.
FX Fanatic,
Yes the Air Venturi mount will work just as well on your Silver Streaks.
Loren
After thinking about AJ Tinkerer’s comment on who’s actually listening in and the one I just made, how about this: if there are indeed any youngsters reading this blog, when was the last time YOU asked dad to plink with you? If you’ve been reading here for very long, I’ll bet you could teach him a few things and show him how responsible you really are. You could even try to get him interested in competing with you at the airgun arena site like OJ and Conor have with their friends and family.
I know I keep plugging http://www.airgunarena.com but I have nothing to gain from it and no affiliation with them except that I found it a great way to stay interested in shooting and incentive to keep improving my skills, plus learning what it’s like to shoot under stress and how to handle disappointment :-).
I’m actually shooting myself in the foot by promoting it because the only time ever I earned a win was when I was the only shooter in the match. I have won a few $10 gift certificates for Pyramydair by the lucky drawing they have for every match. Again, I think that was because there were few participants in the match.
-Chuck
Off Topic:
My wife got a cracking deal on a set of camouflage water proof jacket and trousers.
£10($13 or there about)from an odds and sods shop in town called ‘Boyes’.(I hope she gets me a set as well lol)
Only kidding,they were for me.
Bless her heart.
Fred PRoNJ:
Under these circumstances I will refrain from telling her that great Joke of yours for at least a couple of days 🙂
DaveUK
UKDave (sorry, sounds better to my ears than DaveUK),
which one? Heck, I thought they were both good. I only try and post great jokes (those that cause me to burst out laughing) which is why I post them so rarely. That and the fact I’d like to keep this blog closer to it’s original intent and not wander too far off.
Chuck, I might have to finally go to Airgun Arena and give you some competition.
Fred PRoNJ
… or until it stops snowing???
ka
Loren
Tried out the new Leapers scope on the Titan.
Had to crank it up a lot because it shot really low. Got it somewhere about right, but was shooting loose as heck and not adjusting right. Tried it in the basement and it looked like it was hitting about the right place. Cranked it up one turn and the vertical maxed out.
O.K. must have droop, even though it was not perceptible to the eye. Checked with a level and found that it did have a bit of droop.
Filed the breech face until it had a bit of upward droop. Probably about twice what the previous downward droop had been.
Now the plastic breech seal did not allow the breech to close all the way. With it removed, the lockup was obviously loose. Tore the rifle apart and gave the wedge a little more travel ( Dremels can be great). Still not locking tight enough, but is better. Will have to shim the wedge spring up a bit.
Breech seal…
O.K. the plastic one is not going to hack it. Stuck in two rubber o-rings and got it almost right, but still not looking like enough seal. Need to change to a solid shim and one o-ring.
Zero…
Centered the scope and tightened it down. Was a little low and right at 20 yds. Adjustment was easy and took only a half dozen shots. Shooting pretty tight in spite of the other problems.
Have not run it over the chrono yet. Will wait until after I work on the lockup and seal problems.
Nice scope so far as long as it is not pushed out of range.
twotalon
The Combro chronograph is an excellent tool, too. I especially like the portability and carry one in my gun case wherever I shoot. It may not work well with some guns because of the need to attach it to your muzzle. I also have noticed erroneous readings when using one on a CO2 gun.
I ordered one several years ago directly from Great Britain. It arrived in just a couple of days. I am also still using the original battery! (The only problem has been the plastic window over the display — it kept falling out until I glued it.)
Best,
Joe
Man, you guys are great. All I have to do is ask a question and someone will graciously provide an answer. I would like to thank you guys for the kindness. This is an incredible blog for learning things about airguns (plus a lot of other stuff, including things about life in general). You guys have a great holiday!
Off topic…
We talk a lot about the equipment of this sport/hobby I just wanted to share my thought on some of the people in the sport, more specific the 10M game. Friday we went out to the 2011 Camp Perry Open 3X20 (3 position) junior match in Port Clinton OH. First of all my hat is off to the CMP staff and volunteers that ran this event for the professional manner in which they conducted themselves in performing their duties and the example they set for the competitors. As for the young men and women, the way they come in and prepare in a deliberate no nonsense approach to compete in the event gives me confidence in this generation that they will be capable to handle the challenges they will face in their adult lives. As you watch them shoot the relay and talk to them after you can’t tell whether they shot their personal best or if the wings and wheels fell off and just couldn’t pull it together. There is no chest pounding or throwing gear around just great sportsmanship.
caveman
FX Fanatic,
I read where you’re considering a steriod mod to your Benjamin 392. The steriod mod my mac1 has a loyal following.
Don’t overlook the 392 ACP (Air Conserving Pumper) conversion that steve does. You want the latest MKII version. It’s worth researching.
Developed by Steve Woodward, the Benjamin ACP takes pump-up rifles to the next level. Utilizing state-of-the-art technology in air conservation, the Benjamin ACP uses less effort to achieve full power shots, and is significantly quieter than the standard model. By installing a hammer debounce device, the otherwise wasteful valve now conserves most of the stored air for use in the following shot. By simply pumping the rifle initially to the full 8 pumps and firing at full power, the next sequential shots only require 3 pumps* to achieve the same full power. This drastically reduces the amount of time and effort between shots, making follow up even quicker. Plus, the conservation of air greatly reduces the muzzle blast that a standard Benjamin would have. In order make the rifle less complicated to use, the ACP comes with a simple pressure sensor module which protrudes when the rifle is fully charged with air. This eliminates the risk of overcharging the rifle and locking the valve. When the pressure sensor protrudes from beneath the stock, the rifle is fully charged. Added to the innovative valve design is the reknowned SuperSear trigger, installed. This sear changes the factory trigger configuration and produces a true 2-stage trigger.
The latest MkII version comes with new features which make this rifle even better! The pressure sensor module has been modified to include a travel limiter, which eliminates the risk of the sensor causing pain while pumping. The trigger sear is replaced with a Dual-Power SuperSear, which restores the key feature of a pumper, the multiple power settings. And, while multiple power settings are handy on a standard pump rifle, the Benjamin 392 ACP MkII enters a new category as a self-sustained precharged rifle. On lower power from a fully pumped (8) charge, the ACP MkII gives 3 consistent shots at 500 fps with 14.3 grain pellets before it needs just 5 pumps to recharge!
Google Benjamin 392 ACP.
kevin
Concerning the posts about keeping things clean for the kids that show up here, I’m all for that!
Being a retired sailor we all know the comments about “sailor’s language”.
One point of note, some of these comments maybe coming from kid’s themselves. All of us (kids included) need to keep this a clean forum/blog so everyone feels comfortable. I am not offended by language of any type but I try to keep that to personal e-mails.
rikib 🙂
“The only reason for time is so that everything doesn’t happen at once.”
Albert Einstein
rikib 🙂
Thanks, Kevin. I’ll research the 392ACP. BTW, I do have a Steroid 392 (completed last year). I’m getting the steroid treatment for an old Silver Streak as we speak. I know Airguns of AZ offers the 392 ACP but I will research articles from the internet before making a decision. It does sound quite advantageous from your comments. Take care.
Edith,
I am thankful that others want this blog to be kid friendly. I do think that the entertainment industry has desensitize us in general. Using the movie rating of the movie that some of the comments here came from, this topic would be rated PG-13. Here is the official description for PG-13 from the MPAA web site.
PG-13 — Parents Strongly Cautioned. Some Material May Be Inappropriate For Children Under 13. A PG-13 rating is a sterner warning by the Rating Board to parents to determine whether their children under age 13 should view the motion picture, as some material might not be suited for them. A PG-13 motion picture may go beyond the PG rating in theme, violence, nudity, sensuality, language, adult activities or other elements, but does not reach the restricted R category. The theme of the motion picture by itself will not result in a rating greater than PG-13, although depictions of activities related to a mature theme may result in a restricted rating for the motion picture. Any drug use will initially require at least a PG-13 rating. More than brief nudity will require at least a PG-13 rating, but such nudity in a PG-13 rated motion picture generally will not be sexually oriented. There may be depictions of violence in a PG-13 movie, but generally not both realistic and extreme or persistent violence. A motion picture’s single use of one of the harsher sexually-derived words, though only as an expletive, initially requires at least a PG-13 rating. More than one such expletive requires an R rating, as must even one of those words used in a sexual context. The Rating Board nevertheless may rate such a motion picture PG-13 if, based on a special vote by a two-thirds majority, the Raters feel that most American parents would believe that a PG-13 rating is appropriate because of the context or manner in which the words are used or because the use of those words in the motion picture is inconspicuous.
I think we should keep the blog a G rating so it can be safe for kids of any age.
To finish, here are a few quotes from famous historical figures related to the topic.
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
– Jesus
Everything is based on mind, is led by mind, is fashioned by mind. If you speak and act with a polluted mind, suffering will follow you, as the wheels of the oxcart follow the footsteps of the ox. Everything is based on mind, is led by mind, is fashioned by mind. If you speak and act with a pure mind, happiness will follow you, as a shadow clings to a form.
– Buddha
Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can’t help them, at least don’t hurt them.
– Dalai Lama
Many persons have a wrong idea of what constitutes true happiness. It is not attained through self-gratification but through fidelity to a worthy purpose.
– Helen Keller
Thank you for listening,
AR
A.R.Tinkerer
I agree with your overall stance. One thing to take into consideration is terminology “kid friendly”, should be “people friendly”. Some posts that you find offensive may be coming from what you call “kids”.
You put a lot of time into finding quotes, I applaud you for that. I spend a lot of time doing that myself here are a couple more:
“I’m going to let God be the judge of who goes to heaven and hell.”
Joel Osteen
“When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.”
Wayne Dyer
rikib 🙂
Thanks for the quotes. Here is another quote that goes along with what you are saying.
Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
– Jesus
I do not intend to judge people. We must, however, judge the content by some standard or say there is no standard. So I am requesting that we follow the guidlines for a G rating. Sorry it took a round trip for me to realize we could use the movie ratings.
Thanks,
AR
AR,
Even supposed “G” Ratings can be iffy. If you try and block-out TV shows without a “G” Rating you don’t have much too look at. Society as a whole needs to change. We can do our part by keeping things clean on this forum/blog. Innuendos can be interpreted many ways. We do as a whole (myself included) need to take a moment to re-read what we have typed before we hit that “Submit Comment” button.
rikib
p.s. 🙂 this is taking a minute to post, I’m reading it over 🙂
G ratings are pretty much meaningless. I remember the Flintstones movie they made with John Goodman in the role of Fred Flintstone. I was appalled to see that a movie aimed at children was showing Fred as being tempted by his secretary and going after him aggressively. Children don’t need to see that. Give them a chance to grow up with having to ask what the secretary is doing to Fred.
Edith
Is it meaningless because of the rating’s intent or because the board didn’t stay within the intent?
AR
It’s meaningless because Hollywood thinks adult subjects are appropriate for children, and even G-rated movies have themes that children don’t need to be exposed to.
Edith
I don’t know if there is any answer that will please all to this dilemma. We all would like to speak freely, but at the same time with this type of forum we must except everyone’s rights, a double edge sword.
Many of us as adults do not know who is at the other end of the conversation, maybe kid/teenage/adult, we do not know for sure. This being said, unless personal e-mails are being exchanged I feel that it is best that things/jokes be kept as clean as possible to avoid upsetting others who either have different beliefs or are too young. I’m trying to keep my comments as neutral as possible, let us all guide ourselves in what we feel is right for the good of all. I really enjoy it when this blog/forum can be open-minded and not just “facts-n-stats”. Good chatting with you all!
rikib 🙂
You’re right about now knowing who’s on the other end.
When we ran the Airgun Letter chat forum 10 years ago, a 30-something man that I knew from a field target match was chatting online when one of the other forum participants mentioned a gun that peaked the man’s interest. The two guys hit it off famously and became online friends. Then, they discovered that they lived close enough to each other to meet in person. Both were avid campers, so they decided to make their first meeting a weekend camping trip. However, the one guy said he had to ask his mom to drive him since he was only 13.
Edith
Then again we probably don’t have many 8 years old kids hangin here.
I used to do some moderator work for an online poker site without any real gambling or anything ressembling real money to bet so it was open to all ages and the younger they were the more problems we had with them. It now has gone to “PG 13” a swear word here and there is ok as long as it’s not abusive but explicit, drugs, racism or sexual orientation was off limits and that change made a HUGE difference. Instead of making (myself) 4 or more intervention per day it went to one interventio. Once every 3 or 4 days. When people are losing money even if it’s fake tempers can get boiling quickly.
Some people say that under 18 they just shouldn’t be betting even with fake money but that’s another story…
I vote PG13, brief nudity and no violence!
ka
J-F,
You may not think there are many 8 year olds or maybe 8-12 year olds on here but unfortunately we must err on the side of caution. Seems these are trying times, identities are hidden for security purposes. Parents do not monitor there children’s web usage, I could be 8 or the retired navy vet I proclaim to be. It is hard in this web world to know who is who? Make’s me think of The Who’s song “Who Are You”.
rikib 🙂
Good afternoon sir.
I enjoy your style of reporting. Well, both of you really.
Some will surely scoff at why I bought a Crony. I only have about 6 or 8 months of finding the addiction of air guns. Only about 3 months since discovering PCP world, so I be a genuine newbie.
I bought a crony and had it shipped next day because I was talking with a service member at P.A. and maintaining that the gun I had purchased was not shooting hard enough . The box claimed 600fps and I could not get pellets from this gun to penetrate a pine 1×6 board. I don’t mean pass through, I mean not ricochet off the board. My crude test with the board found 2 brands of pellets would stick in the wood and 4 brands would not.
In fact, I had to force the 4 non-sticking brands into the barrel ( break barrel). So, I did not wish to return a gun that actually was producing the speed advertised on the box. Therefore I bought the crony and tested over the weekend and returned the gun on Monday, knowing it is was only making up to 450 fps.
Here is something I could NOT HAVE KNOWN, if I didn’t own a crony. Has anyone seen the little plastic tool that inserts pellets into a break barrel without fumbling around with the pellet? Now there is also a tool that comes in the deluxe set that sets the pellet x amount of distance down into the barrel, not just leaving
It resting where you finger presses it.
I had a Gamo from A big box store that I used a Bic pen to push the pellet about 1/4″ inside the barrel.
The crony told me that by pressing a pellet that far inside the barrel slowed the pellet up to 200 fps in that gun I was checking?
Now I have 4 guns in my new collection, and I keep a log book on each and crony test different pellets at intervals. I feel I need it, because I have a lot of ground to make up if sometime soon I would like to compete at least locally in shoots.
BB,
Any serious air gunner NEEDS a chrony! I believe I have the very same one you mention in the article, a red Alpha. I have had it for more years than I can remember. Seems it is almost as old as I am. My very first air rifle was a Beeman R9. Fine gun, and if I remember right, it chronographed 7.9 gr chps at around 800 fps. I paid $129.95 for that R9, so that tells you how long ago that was! Probably around the mid to late 1960’s!
I now own a small collection of about 25 fine pellet guns of all types. Pcp, CO2, spring and gas piston. You name it I now have or have at one time owned that type of action.
Just recently I got a real good reminder of WHY you NEED a chrony. I was bragging to my brother about my Optimus in .177 being able to push 7.0 gr match wadcutters at 1000 fps. To prove it, I shot it across the chrony! DANG! It only did 832 fps. Subsequent shots were close to that same velocity. So he asks me “how long has it been since you put oil in the chamber”? Like never? So I put 2 drops of silicone chamber oil in it and worked the cocking motion without ever cocking it for a while and then fired another 7.0 grain pellet. Yep! That was it, now it was shooting at 1025 fps again!!
Without the chrony, I would have never known the gun needed some attention! I have bought new $300 guns which were shooting a full 200 – 300 fps below advertised velocities and went back! My brother had an expensive break barrel which just would NOT group even 3″ at 25′. When chronographed, it was varying from 300 fps to 725 fps with 14.3 gr chps! No wonder it would not group!
So yes, I NEED my chrony to diagnose the health of my many guns and trouble shoot problems. I would rather sell 5 of my precious guns than get rid of my chrony! And neither is happening under my watch!