by B.B. Pelletier
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
The Tech Force 79 Competition rifle is a lot of value for a very low price.
Before we begin today, I wanted to remind you of the 2nd Annual Airgun Extravaganza in Malvern, Arkansas. It’s being held on Friday and Saturday, April 15 & 16. Contact Seth Rowland for more infomation.
Seth has made a deal with a couple motels. Mention the show and you’ll get a discount:
Comfort Inn Malvern, 501-467-3300: Thurs. $55, Fri. $65
Holiday Inn Malvern, 501-467-8800: Thurs. $85, Fri. $90
Make reservations now because they may fill up since the show’s being held on the same weekend as the Arkansas Derby. I have two tables reserved, and the Lord willing I’ll be there with Mac.
Now, for today’s report. From time to time, I’m asked to verify some facts by testing airguns in a certain way. Reader Victor questioned the accuracy claim for the Tech Force 79 Competition Rifle in the last report, and rightly so. It said the rifle is capable of a 5-shot group measuring 0.08 inches at 10 meters — something that the world’s top 10-meter rifles of today still struggle to achieve. I reckoned that the number had been mistakenly carried over at Compasseco in the past from the Chinese BS-4 target rifle that is a near-perfect copy of the FWB 300. That one really was capable of stunning accuracy. When Pyramyd AIR purchased Compasseco, they used that description and this detail was never questioned. Given the large number of products that had to be added to Pyramyd Air’s website, it’s easy to see why not.
However, my struggles with the TF-79 during accuracy testing caused Pyramyd Air’s leadership to examine the rifle more critically, and this past week I was asked to establish a new accuracy figure for the rifle — one that’s realistic. Also, one that we know can be obtained. Since I spent an entire morning testing this rifle again, I darned sure was going to get a blog out of it!
I already had a great target from the RWS R-10 Match Heavy pellets. I showed it to you in the last accuracy report, so it became the group to beat. Remember, I’m testing just one rifle. Others may be more accurate and some may be less accurate, and there’s nothing anyone can do about it. No dealer can give you absolute accuracy information for every rifle with every possible target pellet. It simply takes too long. Even the $3,000 rifles are tested with only one pellet. To do otherwise would add hundreds of dollars to the cost of the gun, and would still be meaningless, since at any time a better pellet could come along.
Lest any of you get on the “machine rest” bandwagon at this point, that’s not how 10-meter guns are tested at any factory. They’re tested by human shooters, shooting off a rest. The one time I actually used a machine rest (a heavy machinist’s vise) was at AirForce, testing the Edge, and the results were no better than if I’d held the rifle myself. So, get off the machine rest/vise kick. It just isn’t done in the real world in the interest of time, and it isn’t necessary.
Having said all that from my bully pulpit, I also must admit that the people who test 10-meter rifles at the factories in Germany and Austria are the closest thing to vices that still have a heartbeat. They get real good at what they do, and you can see it in the tiny groups they send with their rifles. On the other hand, I’m just an average joe. I know how to shoot. When I get in the zone, I can even shoot pretty well. But I’m not the equal of the guys who test Olympic-grade 10-meter rifles for a living.
For this test, I had to get into the zone and stay there throughout the test. And THAT, my friends, is where the value of shooting the Ballard .38-55 centerfire target rifle comes in! You may recall that in my last outing to the range, I discovered the zone for the Ballard, and the last two targets showed it most dramatically. With that experience fresh in my mind, it was easy to get into the zone with the TF-79. I think you’ll see that my results prove it.
The target to beat is the best one I shot in the last test. That was with RWS R-10 Match Heavy pellets and measured 0.244 inches across the centers.
The best group of five pellets at 10 meters with the TF-79 rifle being tested was this group of RWS R 10 Heavy pellets. It measures 0.244 inches across the centers.
Pyramyd AIR asked me to do a comprehensive test of H&N target pellets (they’re the U.S. importer). I did test other pellets, as well, but 14 groups of H&N pellets were fired during this test. All pellet head sizes of every pellet used in this test were 4.50mm. While other sizes exist, nearly everything I have on hand has that same head size. The JSB S100 pellet (4.52mm head) that I tested in this rifle in the last test made a poor showing. I’m thinking this may be the best head size for this rifle. That’s just a guess, since there’s simply not enough time to test all of the 50+ tins of target pellets I have on hand.
H&N Finale Match Rifle pellets
First, I tested H&N Finale Match Rifle pellets. I thought they might be the most accurate because of their weight of almost 8.2 grains. The TF79 is a powerful 10-meter rifle and needs (may need?) a heavier pellet to gain consistency.
The best target of the session was the very first one fired! Five H&N Finale Match Rifle pellets went into this group measuring 0.269 inches between centers.
The worst of five targets shot with H&N Finale Match Rifle pellets measures 0.395 inches between centers.
All my guessing turned out to be wrong. The H&N Match Rifle pellet had a wider spread of accuracy than some others. It averages 0. 33825 inches for five groups. That’s not a great showing in light of what was to come.
H&N Finale Pistol Match
H&N Finale Match Pistol pellets were next — and they surprised me.
The best groups of H&N Finale Match Pistol pellets measures 0.296 inches between centers.
The worst target of H&N Finale Match Pistol pellets measures 0.353 inches between centers.
The average of all four H&N Finale Match Pistol targets was 0.31775 inches. That’s significantly better and more uniform than the Finale Match Rifle pellets. Even though the Finale Match Rifle pellets had the single best group of the session, all of the Finale Match Pistol pellet groups were better than all but two of the five Finale Match Rifle groups.
H&N Match Pistol pellets
Next I tried H&N Match Pistol pellets. They lack the Finale name and are a couple dollars cheaper per tin, so I assume they’re made with less precision.
This best group of H&N Match Pistol pellets measures 0.318 inches between centers.
This worst group of H&N Match Pistol pellets measures 0.507 inches between centers.
As you can see, the targets of the H&N Match Pistol pellets varied widely in accuracy. They averaged 0.39567 inches for all groups shot.
I also shot a special hunting pellet that’s currently a secret but will be revealed soon. I’ve been testing this pellet under various different circumstances, and in this test it surprised me by turning in the second-best group of the entire test!
A surprise was this single group of five special hunting pellets that averaged 0.279 inches between centers.
I won’t tell you what pellet is is, yet. When it comes to market, I’ll direct your attention back to this group.
The bottom line of this test is that the TF79 shoots pretty much the same as I tested it last time. By concentrating on H&N pellets, I did manage to show their performance in far greater detail. The RWS R10 pellets are still the best in this particular rifle, and 0.244 inches is still the best group I’ve shot with it. I did shoot one group of R10 pellets in this test and got a group measuring 0.30 inches between centers, so it’s still a very consistent performer.
I was entirely in the zone throughout the test, and only one target had to be thrown out because of technical difficulties (sighting variations) that were noted. So, we’re going to show the potential accuracy of this rifle to be 0.244 inches. Some may be better than that, of course, and others may not be as good.
Also, you get a bonus out of this. After this exhaustive test, I got out four vintage world-class 10-meter air rifles and went to town, just to make sure I still know how to shoot air rifles. You’ll get to see the results of that on Friday.
I am rooting for the Walther LGR for Friday. I only just got one and am seriously considering dumping my FWB 601 in favor of it..
Carel,
I did own an LGR once. I never should have gotten rid of it.
No, all the vintage rifles are springers.
B.B.
B.B.
I am curious about something here.
I seldom shoot wadcutters so I really don’t know what kind of difference I should usually expect between wadcutters and domed at short ranges like 10m. Have you ever found an approximation in group size difference between the two or is it so variable from gun to gun that it would be useless to have a rule of thumb about the two for accuracy at short range?
twotalon
twotalon,
At 10 meters wadcutters can hold their own with domes. It’s only past 25 yards that the two types begin to differentiate a lot.
B.B.
TT, yes, what BB said except, I find that the round nose pellets chamber more easily my TF79/AR2078.
They don’t shoot any better than the WCs, but it makes me feel better putting e’m in the chamber!
Brian I was wondering about that. I was shooting the R9 in the basement a few days ago from a bench at 28.5 ft (just a meter and a half short of 10) and was repeatedly getting .127″ groups. Not real bad for a hunting rifle, but I was wobbling the same size as the groups. 4.50mmFTT.
twotalon
BB,
I’ve been watching this series with much interest so thank you for doing such a detailed review. I have to ask you if it was difficult to get “into the zone” with this rifle? The weight, fit, and balance seems to work for juniors but just doesn’t feel right to me, it feels to cramped up (the only adjective that comes to mind) and hard to balance to me.
Also I see a lot of similarity to the TAU 200 in this rifle. If it was an approved sporter rifle I don’t think Pyramid could keep them in stock !
caveman
Caveman,
A short pull is typical of a 10-meter rifle, so the TF 79 doesn’t feel cramped to me. But it’s only best for an offhand or rested position. It’s certainly not a hunting stock.
B.B.
Mr. Geico (Caveman)
I put an adjustable target butt-pad on mine, just a black plastic cheap-o from PA clearance items. Adds about 1/2″ of pull. Could still use another 1/4″ of pull but, that will wait until I can machine an alum spacer.
I have 33″ sleeve length and long “digits”.
Brian in Idaho,
I guess I’m not covering my tracks. Nothing to hide any how.
caveman
I am looking forward to Friday’s report myself. I am hoping to pick up an older 10m rifle this year. Maybe you and Mac will have a couple at Roanoke this year (hint, hint).
Ridgerunner,
Mac has quite a few FWB 300s, 150s and HW 55s. I will mention your interest and I bet he’ll bring a couple. He had four at Roanoke last year and he sold two of them.
B.B.
I might be interested in an FWB 300, possibly even the “junior” version.
pete
Pete,
Will you be at the show too? because that will influence Mac to bring more than one 300. He has seven, I believe.
B.B.
BB,
I apologize for being dense, but I can’t tell for certain from the text whether this is the same rifle you used for the previous testing or a different one?
BGF I think this is a replacement rifle. BB returned the first gun thinking it had issues with the barrel or other mechanical stuff going on and thus, the very poor accuracy in the first report.
BG_Farmer,
This is the second rifle I have received from Pyramyd AIR. It’s the same rifle I tested in Part 5.
B.B.
B.B.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the “specialized hunting pellet” means that the H&N Terminators are finally in distribution. H&N has had a picture with no specs up for months now and told me they were still in design when I e-mailed them about it. Can you go so far as to confirm or deny it?
JeffT,
I didn’t do that for a contest, however, I can deny that is the pellet.
B.B.
B.B.
I didn’t think it was a contest, I’ve just been waiting to get my hands on those pellets for months. I’m hoping they’ll be as nice a Crosman Destoyers, but with better consistency. As soon as they’re in PA stock I’ll probably order myself a 4-pack.
Thanks!
-Jeff
BB,
you’re still shooting 10 pellets per target?
Fred PRoNJ
Fred,
No, 5 per target. I mentioned that in earlier reports.
Sporting rifles at distance will still get 10, but a 10-meter distance is too close for 10 shots.
Also, it takes too much time.
B.B.
Fred, how’s the Passaic river doing and more importantly, are you and your guns staying dry back there?
Brian, thanks for asking – the rivers (all of them) have all crested and are going back down. I am technically not in a flood plain so the rivers don’t affect me. What does is localized heavy rains since many of the houses around me were tear downs and re-built mac-mansions with ski slope landscaping. Their sides and yards are so steep that the runoff doesn’t soak in but runs into my back yard and forms a lake. Last year, the lake rose above my concrete flood lip that my son and I poured at the rear entrance to my basement and started pouring into the basement. Some fun. All I had to do this year was replace the sump pump hose on Saturday which sprang a leak.
However, compared to Japan, this is not even worth typing about. I have friends in Japan but fortunately they live in the Osaka region, several hundred miles south of Tokyo so they never felt the shake or suffered from the tsunami.
What I don’t understand is why the reactors are running away? I thought that in an emergency, the control rods would SCRAM effectively damping out the fission reaction. Why are the fuel rods still generating heat? Pete Z – could you help out?
Fred PRoNJ
Fred, ya, I don’t get it either. The NHK news is spotty at best and the JP news conferences are a torture to watch! “Uh yes, it is severe, we are taking most strenuous measures” etc etc etc. I worked for Mitsubishi Chemical for many years and getting straight answers from Tokyo was nearly impossible.
SCRAM should either “posion” the reaction of the fuel rods and/or move them by spring action and/or motors to stop the reactor process. Not sure why none of this is or was happening or if we just aren’t getting the straight scoop.
Otherwise, glad to hear that you are staying dry, it’s been a nasty winter for you guys.
Pellet Testing.
I’ve spent 2-3 hours testing pellets in a newly acquired gun. The excitement of shooting my new gun and discovering its’ potential is what drives me to these marathon sessions. Nonetheless, for me, staying focused and executing good shooting form for 2-3 hours is tough. There have been times when the first 7-10 types of pellets I tried wouldn’t group well. Frustration and disappointment about whether I made a mistake in buying the gun or just questioning my shooting ability often ended these testing sessions early. I usually return to complete pellet testing in a day or so since my curiousity and sheer will have always ruled my actions.
I don’t have the mental stamina or motivation to constantly endure these marathon pellet tests for other peoples guns. Guess I’ll never be an airgun blog writer.
kevin
Amen to that, it’s a beater!
I can hardly deal with it for my own guns!
BB
I will be on the edge of my seat for friday’s report.
What is your impression of the FWB 150? I haven’t been able to find a blog from you about it. I mention it because I recently let a Daisy branded one slip through my fingers on GB.
SL,
I just got a 150 in trade with one of our readers. It needed seals, so it’s with Randy Bimrose now, but I plan to do a full review of it.
B.B.
Excellent! I have been wondering how much to curse myself for missing this one, now I’ll know. (It was a beauty)
Sorry off topic BB.
I got out in the field last Friday so am busting to write about it.
My shotgun shooting pals got themselves a clay trap which they wanted to try out,so on the back of that I took my Weirauch.
The object being,I wanted to shoot my rifle at 40 yards,which I understand is the max humane range to kill small game with a 12ftIb rifle.
Using .22 JSB Exact (Jumbo) pellets,my HW99s shot straight through a Bean Can at that distance with ease.
Also despite quite a stiff breeze,with timed shots we were getting a 99% hit rate.
Both pals liked shooting my rifle,so we did a round robin of,one on the trap,one shooting clays and the other shooting the Weirauch.
As far as my success shooting clays.The less said the better.
DaveUK
Forgot to add that was with open sights.
DaveUK
Sounds a good one mate!
HW rifles forever!
I’ve shot at two clays in my life and missed both.
Matt61
Both barrels of a double, same time? (ha ha)
Dave,
I am a lousy shotgun shooter, so I completely understand.
Good luck with the air rifle!
B.B.
BB,
Is this the exact same gun as the AR2078? It looks exactly the same as the one I purchased from Mike Melick, only that gun would produce groups only in the 3/4″ range BEST! Many of the worst pellets produced groups in the 1″ – 2″ range. I returned it to Mike. Even if it had produced groups in this range I would have returned it as I told Mike during negotiations I had to have at least .08″ ctc groups or did not want it. He said he could do that easily!
I was shocked and totally disgusted with his handling of the problem negotiations. When told the BEST groups rested were 3/4″ he replied “Don’t rest the gun is the solution.” He said he would give me my money back or replace it and NEVER mentioned a “restocking fee”. Since I had lost faith in his ability to deliver on his word, I chose refund and he charged me a 25% restocking fee!!! Claimed one of his customers shot it offhand, got a .2″ group and promptly bought it! When I pointed out he was to deliver .08″ ctc he then said that was .2″ edge to edge and there fore .02″ ctc.
Fortunately I paid with pay pal and am in the process of a dispute to return the rest of my money to me!! Had I know before hand he could not deliver such accuracy I would have gone for a true target grade gun like maybe the Crosman Challenger 2009 or a used target grade rifle! More money yes, but I want the acccuracy and was/am willing to pay for it.
So BB, what in heck do you have to do to get a gun which will shoot in the .06 – .10″ ctc range? I know I will not be shooting that way off hand, but at least I want to know the gun CAN so I can practice and improve till I can!!! Of course money is an issue when you are on SS disability so I want to go with the least expensive way to do this. Also weight is an issue when you have arthritis real bad in every joint in the body and also the back! So MOST weight I can handle is 9.5 # and even that is a stretch! For hunting guns I want to limit it to 7.5 – 8 # total with sights, etc. But for a target gun only to be shot indoors 90% of the time where I can shoot multiple short sessions in a day I can go a tad more.
Any modern German or Austrian 10 m match rifle will shoot to 0.08″ in the hands of an outstanding shooter. The FWB 300 series would as well, and I think there were several other rifles of the same vintage that would. If you can consistently shoot 0.08″ c-t-c off-hand and wearing a shooting jacket and pants, you’ll likely wind up a serious competitor for the Olympic team.
Don’t the FWB target rifles shoot .04 ctc? You just have to spend $2000 to get one. My fantasy rifle is the single stroke pneumatic which does not require a pump, and I believe has won a gold medal.
.08 ctc is well under a minute of angle, and I don’t believe anybody can shoot that offhand consistently.
Matt61
Matt,
They SAY they shoot that well, but in 30 years of looking at over 100 test targets I’ve probably seen two that were that good. 0.08″ is a real screamer!
B.B.
Lol,
Well Matt you should watch the olympic shooters or even shooters here at the national levels of competition.
I have seen such level of shooters put pellet after pellet after boring numbers of pellets obliterate the 10 dot on 10 meter rifle targets! Off hand! In fact I have seen one competitor CENTER each pellet in the tiny 9 ring which is only very slightly larger than the pellet 90%+ of the time off hand at 10 meters! And most of the rest of the time the pellet hole only slightly touched one portion of the ring. I would say less than 5 times out of 100 did he actually cut the 9 ring completely through!
So it can be done, but only maybe 1 in 10000 to 1 in 50000 shooters can do it! And most of them use equipment which costs in the $2000 up range with the emphasis on up!! Wouldn’t matter to me as off hand I can only shoot maybe 40 – 44 of 50 right now. And if I used their equipment I MIGHT be able to shoot 42 – 46 of 50 with a shooting jacket and all the stuff they have.
I just want to find a gun for $450 to a max of $575 which is CAPABLE in one of those shooters hands to shoot 50/50! Any leads?
pcp4me,
Yes, read the Friday blog. And read it THOROUGHLY, because there ARE disclaimers.
Als, my March podcast touches on the same subject. When it goes live, give a listen.
B.B.
pcp4me,
Somebody has a Challenger up for sale CHEAP on the yellow classifieds – $195 shipped.
Alan in MI
Alan,
That’s not the Challenger PCP. It’s a cheaper CO2 rifle with a Benjamin 397 barrel. Never was worth much more than they are asking.
Don’t be fooled.
B.B.
Alan,
Saw that but it is an older challenger with the poor trigger which is why it is so cheap and why I don’t want it. If it were a Challenger 2009 for that price I would have bought it!
Thanks
pcp4me,
I have a few vintage 10 meter guns that I’m planning on selling this spring/summer. What is your preference?
kevin
Kevin,
Probably only a Challenger 2009 or a Mini FWB 300 with the mini stock and the mini action are the only two guns I can think of that will meet my needs. Unless you know of other guns under 9.5 # with great accuracy potential.
pcp4me,
Don’t overlook the HW 55 series. Many are under 9.5 lbs. And in 1969 they beat the FWB 300s in the World Cup.
Walther LG 55s are also good choices. And so are Diana 60s if they have been resealed with modern seals.
And the AirForce Edge is right there with the Challenger 2009 PCP. And it’s under 7.5 lbs.
B.B.
pcp4me,
Vintage comes to mind for your price range since I have more experience in vintage 10 meter guns than the new 10 meter pcp and co2 guns.
With that disclaimer out of the way don’t forget Anschutz. In 1966 the 1st World Championship for air gun shooting took place in Weisbaden. They had individual and team events. The Gold for individual (40 shot air rifle event) was won by Gert Kummet using an Anschutz 220. In 1966, the Swiss won the team event using Walther’s old sage LG-55M.
I like the giss guns but my Anschutz 380 is probably my best shooting 10 meter spring gun.
As B.B. said, the later 1960’s and into the early 1970’s Walther dominated the World Championship events. Weihrauch was always nipping at their heels.
Feinwerkabu had its big break through at the 1970 World Championship (held in Phoenix) where Gottfried Kustermann won with a FWB300. Heir Kustermann – who today manufactures top rate shooting jackets/pants/boots/glove -represented the first air rifle specialist at the world championship. His winning score of 387 outdistanced all other competitors by something like 10 points. This was a phenonmenal achievement as back then and today most 10 meter air rifle world events are won by one ot two points. The NASCAR marketing approach (win on Sunday and sell on Monday) created by Kustermann & his FWB300, boosted Feinwerkbau’s reputation and sales (“Gosh I have to have one of those new FWB300’s so I can win” mentality).
The first Olympic Games to have 10 meter air rifle was the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics.
Immediately after its introduction in the mid-1970s, the LGR broke both the individual and team 10 meter world records, won the Olympic Gold Medal in 1984 at the LA Games (men’s 10 Meter Air Rifle) and made spring rifles obsolete in 10 meter competition including the fabulous FWB 300’s. LGR shooters shot so many perfect scores that the UIT reduced the size of 10 meter rifle targets from the current 10 meter pistol size to the smaller rifle size targets we use today.
I have a LGR U and everytime I host airgun shoots at my place people fight over who gets to shoot it next.
kevin
pcp4me,
The gun BB. is bloging will hold the 8 ring, any shooter 80 or better would brake 50 with it. Or did I misunderstand you.
caveman
PCP4ME,
If I can believe the reviews that I’ve read, the latest Challenger matches your criteria. It’s in the right price range, and according to Ray Apeles (sp?), it will shoot single pellet hole size groups at 30 feet. I had a chance to hold one a couple of years ago at the Shot Show, and was pleased with how it felt. It’s not quite as good as the older FWB 300’s, but at this price range, it’s probably as close as it will get, and if the accuracy is as claimed, it’s worth the money, in my opinion. Also, I love the fact that it has a utility rail.
Victor
Matt61,
My understanding is that the barrel accuracy of the FEB 300’s are as good as the latest and greatest Feb’s. The FEB 300 that I used back in the 70’s could shoot close to pinwheels at 50 feet, let alone 33 feet. I too was interested in the model that you describe as your fantasy rifle (I believe it is the FEB 603). If you can get your hands on a FEB 300, you’d probably be happy with it. They were a dream to shoot.
Victor
Why you really, really want to closely read everything on a manufactureres website before ordering.
It clearly states on Mike’s site, under returns, that there is a minimum 25% restocking fee.
Personally I wouldn’t buy from a company that has this kind of policy (I can only see a restocking fee if you have destroyed the packaging)…but he did nothing he hadn’t clearly stated on his website.
CBSD,
EXCEPT I never SAW his web site! Was not even aware he had one!! I got his email off yellow forum from a post where a guy was praising him. All contact was via email or phone!! Had I seen his web sight I would NOT have done business with him. Had he ever disclosed by email or phone that he had ANY restocking fee I would not have done business with him! I simply do not do business with any one who charges any restocking fee! If you can’t stand by your products 100% and ESPECIALLY one you are doing custom work on, then IMHO you are simply a shoddy works man and a crook!!
I made it VERY clear to Mike accuracy was my number ONE priority in the 6 or seven emails we exchanged during the negotiation phase. I also told him money was not an issue, charge what ever he needed to do the job. And this is NOT a case of him coming close but just not quite making the target. This is a case of him missing the target by miles!! I have had off the shelf cummins B 3’s shoot way better than this!! In fact, every rifle I own shoots way better off a rest than that one did!! My best guess is there was a serious problem with the crown or barrel.
That was his snide comment to me…you should have read the disclaimers on my web site. I would have had I ever seen his site, but I didn’t. And I pointed that out to him.
When a customer contacts him via email and does the deal by email and phone, HE should disclose the restocking fee. He did not! And when you are doing custom work for some one and you don’t even come close to meeting the goals, restocking fees should NOT be charged as you have an obligation to deliver on your promises!!
And had there been items missing or damage to the gun I could understand a restocking fee. But there wasn’t!
Don’t get me wrong pcp4me, I’m on your side here.
As many know I work in the camera biz…the only time we charge a restocking fee is when there are items missing (cords/instr/etc). Quickest way to ensure a customer never comes back is to charge an exorbitant fee for them to do business with you (returns are, after all, sometimes part of doing business).
And the fact that you didn’t deal with Mike over the net, in my mind means he should have definitely rescinded the restocking fee in this case.
pcp4me,
No Tech Force airgun, save the B-4, could EVER get CLOSE to 0.08″ That’s like saying a Chinese watch copy is as good as a real Rolex.
As for what target air rifle can do it–Friday!
B.B.
Ya know, b.b., I got a story here.
In 1978 I bought a Rolex Oyster Perpetual Datejust…back before they gained cult status. Even then they were expensive…but nothing like now.
My father passed away about 5 years ago. Just before he died he had his Rolex engraved to my first son, his first grandson and it is in a safe deposit box for his high school grad. I decided to have mine engraved with my second sons name and have put it away also.
So I needed a new watch. Bought a G-Shock (Casio) for the uber-tactical look, but also picked up a Rolex clone. Not one of the cheap quartz jobbies, but one with a mechanical selfwinding movement. Not cheap at about $300.
And damned if it doesn’t keep better time than the real thing. The real Rolex losses (and always has) about 3-4 minutes a month…acceptable they tell me, and it has had a number of cleaning and overhauls, so it’s never been a service issue.
Damned if the knockoff won’t run for months at a time without losing a single minute.
Ticks me off, to tell the truth (pun intended).
Thing is I never wear it. Though it even fooled the watchmaker I deal with (at least till he opened up the back)…it is pretty much impossible to tell it’s a fake…when I wear it I just don’t feel right.
So it sits on the shelf and I wear the Casio day to day.
(sorta like Chinese airguns…some of them are definite clones…but at least they don’t have the nerve to steal the originals name and logos)
But it is damned accurate.
Downtown Saigon, 1969, a kid selling “Rolex” watches cleverly marked on the face as Rulex (with a u instead of an o). The letter u was almost closed at the top, had to look close to see it.
That watch worked for about 15 years and lost about 10 mins per year or .0274 mins per day. Cost me a whopping $10 back then and he was asking $20! It was an Oyster knock-off, winder upper, but was actually gold plated.
“OK G.I., but my sister she not eat tonight because of you”
Ya ya, just give me the watch Nguyen…
BB,
He said he could do it! If it couldn’t be done, don’t say you can!
You addressed the issue today about Compasseco advertising .08″ ctc. And BB I have HAD guns in the past (TF79) that I COULD get .08″ – .20″ ctc from rested consistently. Too bad all three of em had bad seals which failed before reaching 500 rounds!
But you ALL are missing the point here.
We are not quibbling over a gun which could deliver .2″ ctc vs the promised .08″! We are talking about a gun which with the BEST pellets can only deliver about 3/4 ” groups. The BEST group I got with it out of over 100 5 shot groups at 25 FEET rested was .6″!!! And that was exactly ONE group! Next best was .75″ and one pellet could group them in that range consistently with a scope!
I spent 4 or 5 days shooting this gun for groups using every hold known to man. Artillary with palms up and palms down. A hold so loose the gun had a hard time staying in your hands. All kinds of in between holds, and one so tight you would have thought I was shooting an elephant rifle! I uses BOTH of the iron sights sent with the gun. I used better front inserts for the front sights. I used three different scopes on it!!! The BEST groups were shot with a 4 – 16 X 44? ao leapers set to 10 power!!
Oh and one other sad tidbit, when I was talking to him on the phone after he emailed me saying the gun was finished and he was just testing to see if it was holding gas. After three days of waiting I called seeking a ship date. He told me the gun was “still holding gas.” I then specifically asked about accuracy and he said “Weeellllll, I only have the cheap Peak pellets here to test with. I think it will be ok and shoot better if you have any good pellets.”
WTF is wrong with that statement? He makes and tests custom guns and don’t even have suitable pellets on hand to test accuracy?
pcp4me…I don’t think anyone here, at least as I’ve read the posts has disagreed that you have a valid complaint.
I think it’s time to take a deep breath and chill a bit.
One other note, the barrel bands on these guns (plastic) are notoriously loose. Did you or Mr Mike ever check that item? Mine is the aluminum band and is tight, very tight. Otherwise the barrel mis-aligns with the axis of the tube/action. Contrary to “common wisdom” the barrel doesn’t float if loose, it mis-alighns from stock pressure and temperature when loose. A floating barrel still requires some frm of rigid mount at the action and a cradle if needed due to barrrel weight.
pcp4me
The AR2078 is the basically thesame gun as the TF79. What is your budget for this “10 meter gun” you want? $180? $200, $250-ish? If so, it will be the Chi-guns or the used market, maybe an Avanti co2 used? They are a little small-ish but, great, great shooters and you can bulk fill with a lightweight 20 ounce co2 paintball tank.
Unlike your Mike M. experience, my AR2078 put’s e’m in one, .237″ dia. ragged hole if I clamp it into a gun vise. I have shot up to 15, continuous shots through that one, ragged hole. That is the gun’s mechanical capability, which I have repeated now several times. Offhand shooting is another story (sad to say) and is all about the shooters capability. Mine likes RWS R10 Match and Gamo Match pellets. It does not like Beeman (Chinese) pellets at all! I am going to try Crosman Premier round nose pellets soon. My gun chrony’s at 720-ish fps and I have done some minor mods to it and I do use a scope.
Brian,
I would like to keep it under $400. But am willing to go as much as a new Challenger 2009 costs if necessary. So about $600 is my top max but I would have to wait longer to get the money together unless I can sell a bunch of my action pistols.
I learned my lesson from this AR2078 fiasco about trying to get what I want as cheap as possible.
For now I will practice with my Daisy 953. I will probably mod the trigger on it and hope that will give me a little more accuracy. The gun won’t suddenly become any more accurate, but it will help me shoot it more accurately. An 8# creepy trigger pull with lots of creep and a surprise let off isn’t exactly conducive to match accuracy. It’s a wonder I can get scores of 40 – 44 with that gun offhand.
BTW just to clarify, those scores are one shot each at a 5 bull 10 meter rifle target so that is a max of 50 points per target. One time and one time only I shot a 48 with my Daisy 953, so I know that gun is pretty good but I am not.
BB,
Another excellent and useful report! This certainly sets the bar for my accuracy testing for the rifles in the low end of my current price range.
Your target pics show really good definition in your pellet-on-target strikes. I assume you are attaching the official targets to some kind of backing for support and prevent tares? If so, what is that backing and where do you get it? Forgive me for asking you this already asked question. I know you answered it a few blogs ago in the comments section but I need a repeat because: a) I’m impressed with your pellet holes, b) I didn’t pay attention last time, and c) I don’t know how to formulate a search for it.
-Chuck
I mean prevent tears, not tares in the biblical sense, but tears, as in ripping apart. 🙂
Same here, what Mr. AlanL said, 1/8″ thick fiber board does a great job. Cardboard is ok for one session but, blows apart too quickly. Duct seal works while it’s still flat, but that flat surface takes a beating after a few hundred rounds.
Chuck,
No backing, just good National targets. Buy ’em at Pyramyd AIR.
I do use a cardboard cover over the duct seal to keep the splash down, but the target hangs free.
B.B.
B.B.,
Are you shooting indoors? I find that the wind wiggles my target papers too much if they hang free. Hence the fiberboard backing and a little tape, as I described for Chuck below.
AlanL
Alan,
Yes, I shoot 10 meter indoors.
B.B.
BB,
I do have the National targets from PA but I nail them to the Duct Seal. They tear too much that way. I will try them hanging suspended.
AlanL & Brian-I,
I will also try the fiber board. I’m not sure that 1/8″ board plus target will fit in my Gamo 5-1/2″ x 5-1/2″ pellet trap because of the narrow side rail slots but they’ll work on my 20″ duct seal trap. I’ve gotten good enough offhand standing with both pistol and rifle where I don’t need the larger duct seal trap.
The 5-1/2″ metal trap is more than adequate for me now and I don’t have to dig out pellets. I reserve the larger trap for my grand kids and they can dig out their own pellets. Kinda like the kids Operation Game only without the buzzer.
-Chuck
What pellets were in use?
Decent wadcutter pellets shouldn’t be tearing a target if fired at reasonable speed. That is what they are meant for — cutting clean holes in targets.
And if I recall the recent report — most, if not all, of the posted targets were shot using wadcutter designs.
Roundnose/domed/hollow-point/pointed pellets are more likely to rip the paper from the center to the width of the pellet, instead of being punched from the circumference in…
Wulfraed,
I was using .177 RWS R-10 Match wadcutters. My holes didn’t look near as clean as BB’s. I had my target pinned to the duct seal, though. I will try it with it suspended and see if there is a difference.
I still have 8 other wadcutter types I’m going to try. I’m using an IZH-46M pistol and have found the JSB Exact RS to be pretty accurate for this gun but they aren’t wadcutters. Now, I’m looking for that right wadcutter.
-Chuck
Wulfraed,
I also cut some NRA targets to fit the 5-1/2″ Gamo metal pellet trap and they tore bad, also, until I put a Gamo target behind the NRA one. This metal trap is almost like a suspended target in that there is nothing behind the paper. The Gamo targets are a thicker material, maybe 200 bond? However, the holes were better, but still not as neat as BB’s.
-Chuck
Hmmm… I could have understood expanded tears from using domed “field” pellets, but not close range wadcutters.
Pity I won’t get to a range for some weeks (end of April, most likely); and when I do, I’ll be spending more time just trying to get all the scopes/red-dots sighted in on four+ guns (hope I can get the scope on the RWS M54 sighted — after putting a new scope, rings, base, my laser alignment tool had me cranking the windage to maximum stop and still wasn’t in vertical). That at running velocity tests on the Condor (presuming the range permits chronographs).
I can’t really test targets/ammo/pellets in my apartment without risking calls to the police (ignoring that I’ve only got about 15 feet from front door to hall closet); I managed to sneak a limited chronograph run on Sunday (good thing I have the “Master” model — I seem to have let the Condor drop a bit low and splashed a pellet on the front sheet metal, a regular model would now be getting a replaced control panel). Mostly air soft pistols (just 10 rounds each), 8 rounds CP99, and 10 rounds each from the low powered target guns… closing out with 5 rounds each from the high powers. I wasn’t aiming for score — just used an orange dot stuck to the wax paper that I covered the duct seal with, set high as I knew some of the test arms would be impacting a few inches low.
I’m afraid to see what the Condor would do with the regular tank — I had the micro-meter tank on, at level 8-0 (7-16; who designed that micrometer to not have a 0 mark rather than 0.5-16.0) and it was pushing close to the RWS m54. [five shot average] Condor: 709fps with RWS MK 14.0gr. RWS Diana M54: 793fps RWS Super-H-Point 14.5gr
Wulfread,
I’m sure you are a pretty good shot by now so just double up a couple pugs of ductseal for the Condor and that should do it.
-Chuck
heh… Sir, you flatter me…
Not that good — mainly as my shooting distances are not conducive to the sight planes (splattering a pellet on the front of a Beta Master chronograph at 8″ should be proof of that — glad I wasn’t using a scope for the velocity tests or I might have taken out the $40 head on my tripod).
In terms of stopping the Condor — I do have, somewhere, a bullet trap rated for .22 rimfire — though that will be rather noisy (and it, too, has a dent from a low impact — this time from the RWS m54 when I tried setting it up in the car port — scope had been set for something like 25 yards, and I had less than 30 feet). Hmmm, maybe I can shove it full of duct seal — lower impact zone would be quite deep while the upper zone would still reflect some downward… Probably need a forklift to move it into place.
Chuck,
With thin cheap paper targets I get some tearing even with wadcutters. The secret is to use stiff cardboard targets which produce clean cut holes but are a little more expensive. On those domes and pointed pellets do not produce as clean a hole, but seldom tear.
B.B.,
Is it a vice to confuse vice for vise? Ah well… 😉
Chuck,
I bought a $5 1/8″ x 4′ x 8′ fiberboard sheet from Home depot and cut it into 15″ x 18″ backboards with my jigsaw for my pellet trap. It’s much sturdier than cardboard and lets you tape targets to it. You get nice round holes and a satisfying thwack with every hit.
-AlanL
AlanL,
I corrected them. Thanks!
Edith
B.B., good shooting, although the notion of an entry target rifle still seems like a bit of an oxymoron to me….
Thanks for the info on reloading the M1. My only gripe against this rifle design is the narrow range of pressures it will work with and the fragility of the operating rod. If I had my way, I would go with IMR 4895 which would allow me to shoot surplus–the Greek stuff is not bad at all for 30 cents per round. However, my rifle has been tuned for IMR 4064 in an effort to get the tiniest extra bit of accuracy out of it, and the surplus jams it consistently. So, I’m stuck. Your bullet weight of 169gr. sounds a little heavy although maybe the extra weight over the military load is for accuracy purposes. My load from Clint Fowler is for a 150gr. SMK.
After rereading my reloading manual and watching YouTube videos, things have fallen into place, and I’m almost ready to go except for one thing which is the headspacing of the individual firearm. Is it even necessary to measure this or can I go with published cartridge dimensions in the reloading manuals? Supposing I did want to measure headspacing, what tool does one need? Some sort of headspace gauge, but is there an exact name for the thing that measures the headspacing of the firearm?
The Twice name actually makes a certain amount of sense when I see the mechanism of the gun, and I’m certainly all for minimizing the need to recharge air. Regarding muzzle weight, while it does increase accuracy, doesn’t it severely reduce handiness which is necessary for hunting to carry the gun in the field and quickly get it on target? One thing I like about the M1 is the combination of stabilizing weight and balance.
What is with the German-made Weatherby? I thought that Weatherby rifles were entirely an American invention. I’ve always thought that they were long on power but not so much on accuracy although they are certainly adequate.
As a bit of trivia, I learned this weekend that Mikhail Kalashnikov adamantly opposed the conversion of his rifle from 7.62 to 5.45. I knew that guy was a genius. I also heard again about his brand of vodka. Duskwight, I know you’ve come down on vodka but have you given this brand a try? Anyone seen it in the U.S.?
The Japanese disaster is beyond speaking of. However, it does present a real-life example of the apocalyptic scenario one reads about in survival forums. I have to say that the Japanese response would be hard to surpass. No looting, violence, social breakdown, or looking out for number one. Very impressive.
Matt61
Matt,
Shoot what your rifle is tuned for, by all means. I was just saying that 4895 was the powder the government specified for the Garand because of its pressure curve.
Thirty cents a round!!!! What are you, a millionaire? I can shoot 168 Matchkings for that.
B.B.
Re “Japanese response”
A very homogeneous society that is very used to standing in line for trains, lunch, groceries, just about everything that one would do in a large city day to day. In the outlying country, self sufficiency is still required and expected in each village. Also, outward displays of emotion are not commonly accepted. Couple all this with their last 30 years of earthquake and tsunami preparations and infrastructure and you have a model for disaster management. We should only expect to react and manage that well in a similar magnitude of trouble. Just look at all the Libs on a tear this weekend about Nuke energy, good lord, they are clueless.
PS Special thanks to Jane Fonda, your idiotic and totally fact bankrupt movie The China Syndrome, has led generations to believe in a myth that is now being used to blur the truth of the massive containment activity and control of the Daichi reactors.
Never having seen “China Syndrome” I can’t comment… But I’m fairly sure most of the US populace, at least, probably thinks all reactors are of the type used at Chernobyl… That is: water cooled, /graphite moderated/ — in which the only way to stop a reaction is to pull out graphite rods (try that when the runaway has damaged the mechanism)… VS /heavy/ water moderated/cooled — in which loss of the water itself stops the reaction (sure, the water is radioactive, but you don’t get a runaway meltdown that won’t stop until the fuel is consumed)
Yeah, but…
Gas-graphite reactors can have graphite fires, much, much worse than anything possible in Japan. My prediction: none of the 3 reactors will be repairable, and none will cause injury or significant property damage outside the owner controlled area of the site. Two of the 3 have now been essentially been major fire-proofed by pouring in seawater and borated water to absorb neutrons. The 3rd is getting there. The Japanese do not/not have a good track record on nuclear safety, and I still make the optimistic prediction.
pz
Brian in Idaho,
I haven’t seen the move China Syndrome either, but I do live in southern Nevada, where some morons would like to dump all nuclear waste. If you lived here, and read the detailed reports pertaining to the contract work done thus far by the nuclear industry, you’d understand why so many are against it. Audits done have repeatedly shown a level of unprofessionalism and incompetence that rivals that of the so called planning and management of the occupation of Iraq and Katrina. If there is one thing that I will not do is defend an industry (any industry) that demonstrates a complete disregard for the safety of human beings while seeking maximum profit. Some of the larger players in many industries are even worse that “government”. Blindly trusting industry is just as foolish as blindly trusting government (witness Wall Street, the likes of Enron, Worldcom, and even the banking industry). Neither needs to be defended by me, you, or any other individual citizen. Trust me, they have large teams of lawyers and lobbyist in place to distort facts on the same order as Jane Fonda.
Victor
Weatherby production guns made by;
Howa, Japan
Sako, Japan
Sauer (Sig-Sauer), Germany
Roy Weatherby started this outsourced production process over 40 years ago, his American made customs were made in So. Gate, Ca. They may still be made there?
Sorry to read of a negative experience with Mike Melick. I purchased a QB78D with a max tune from him and it has exceeded all of my expectations. At reasonable temps (65-70 degs.) it can shoot lead at around 700fps and has one of the best triggers I have ever experienced in my 40 plus years of air gunning. It meet or exceeded all of my accuracy and appearance expectation and operates better than any CO 2 $150.00 air gun I have seen or laid my hands on. Mike told me what he would deliver and that’s exactly what I got. I will say this however, it is very pellet particular. Only air gun I have owned that shoots all over the place with CP match or CP HPs. Based on my experience I would buy from Mike again in a heart beat and likewise would recommend him.