Crosman’s new M4-177 multi-pump air rifle: Part 2

by B.B. Pelletier

Part 1


Crosman’s new M4-177 is a smart-looking M4 battle rifle lookalike.

Before we begin, I want to wish a Happy Thanksgiving to all my U.S. readers. I certainly have a lot to be thankful for, and I hope all of you do, as well. Now, on to the report.

This Crosman M4-177 multi-pump air rifle has proven to be one of the most interesting new air rifles of the season; and as a result, I’m looking at it a little more thoroughly. Today is the day we test velocity, and I have a couple other interesting things to share. One I’ll share right now…I bought the test gun. This is a neat rifle, plus this is a future collectible because Crosman will change the name stamped on the gun (from M417 to M4-177) by January 2012.

It’s a multi-pump
As a multi-pump pneumatic, the M4 allows the shooter to pump a maximum of 10 strokes, with the power varying with every new stroke. You probably don’t want to pump less than three times because the power is so low you risk getting a pellet stuck in the barrel; but from three to ten pumps, it gives you the ability to vary the power of the gun according to the situation.

How can you shoot BBs in a rifled bore?
The first question I’ll address is the fact that you can shoot both BBs and lead pellets in this rifle. It has a rifled steel barrel that will tolerate steel BBs without undue wear. Like you, I wondered what the rifling for such a combination gun must look like, so I took a reverse impression of the bore by pushing a Beeman Kodiak pellet from muzzle to breech. The rifling was engraved on the pellet, giving us a look at the bore in reverse.


This is what a Beeman Kodiak pellet looks like after traversing the M4 barrel. The lands that are shown as grooves on this pellet are sharp and high. They’re wider than the grooves.

Notice how much lead has smeared to the back of the lands and sticks out like a small tail as an extrusion at the rear of each channel. This is what barrel maker Harry Pope said was ruinous to accuracy, because it’s influenced by the expanding gasses at the instant the bullet leaves the muzzle. In other words, it’s the equivalent of a poor crown.

Now we know what the inside of the barrel looks like. Does Crosman harden their barrels to prevent wear from the steel BBs? I don’t know, but I would presume that the rifling button will work-harden the steel to a certain extent, and maybe that’s all it takes.

Shooting BBs in the M4
When you shoot the M4, you can choose between BBs and pellets but it’s a choice you must make. If you leave the BB magazine loaded and also shoot pellets, I would imagine there could be a double-feed problem. The BBs are picked up by the magnetic tip of the bolt, while the pellets are simply shoved out of the clip and into the breech when the bolt is shoved forward.

When I refer to the BB magazine, I do not mean the 350-shot BB reservoir. You can leave that full all the time and shoot lead pellets without a problem. I’m referring to the visible BB magazine that can be seen on the left side of the gun.


The visible BB magazine on the left side of the gun is filled from the internal 350-shot BB reservoir. The small switch at the right of this photo controls this magazine. Here it’s shown in the open position, so the magazine can be filled by holding the muzzle down and shaking the gun with a twisting motion. After the magazine is filled, push the switch to the rear to retain the BBs.

The instruction manual says to watch the tip of the bolt when feeding BBs into the breech. I found that to be impossible, because the 5-shot pellet clip blocks the view, and it must be in place to feed BBs. But you can watch the BBs move through the visible magazine window shown in the photo above and know for certain that a BB has been fed. Once I figured this out, there were no difficulties and feeding was reliable.

Velocity with BBs
I started with Daisy zinc-plated BBs because I’ve noted in past reports they’re the most uniform and usually give the highest velocity and the best accuracy. I decided to test the gun on five pump strokes and again on ten. That should give us an idea of what the gun can do.

On five pump strokes, the BB averaged 460 f.p.s., but the velocity spread was large. From a low of 451 f.p.s to a high of 483 f.p.s., the total spread was 32 f.p.s. Normally, I expect to see a 6-10 foot-second spread when shooting with the same number of pump strokes. However, I did see that the more I shot the gun the faster it went, up to a point. I think the pump cup needed to be warmed up through repeated use, even though I shot in 70 degrees F (21 degrees C) temperature, so it wasn’t too cold for the gun. The pump cup just needed to be flexed a bit to warm it and get it sealing all the way.

On ten pump strokes, the gun gave an average of 579 f.p.s. with the same BB. This time the spread went from 566 to 588 f.p.s., so it was still a 22 foot-second spread. Perhaps the hardness (durometer) of the pump cup material is causing such a large spread. That would probably make it a longer-lasting material, so there’s a tradeoff.

Okay, I guess it’s not fair to test a Crosman gun and not use their BBs, so I also tested some Copperhead BBs. On five pumps, the rifle averaged 465 f.p.s. with a spread from 459 to 472. That’s only 13 f.p.s., which is much tighter than the Daisy BBs.

On ten pumps, the gun averaged 581 f.p.s., so it’s also a little bit faster than with Daisy BBs. The spread went from a low of 574 to a high of 592 f.p.s., so a total of 18 f.p.s. The bottom line is that Crosman Copperhead BBs are more consistent in the M4. I guess I’ll have to try both in the accuracy test.

Pumping not that easy
I said in Part 1 that the M4 is easier to pump because the stroke is short. Well, after today’s test, I have to change that. After you pass five strokes, the effort required to pump increases; and by the end of the session, my left hand was hurting from the pump handle. Also, the gun makes quite a racket with every pump stroke because the handle slaps down hard when the stroke is finished.

Velocity with pellets
I tried only a single pellet in the rifle. I tried it on five pump strokes and on ten. The pellet I used was the Crosman Premier Super Match, which is a wadcutter target pellet that’s appropriate to a rifle in this power range. On five pumps, the pellet averaged 429 f.p.s. and ranged from 424 to 433 f.p.s. The velocity spread is much tighter when the projectile fits the bore better.

On high power the same pellet averaged 529 f.p.s. with a low of 508 and a high of 545 f.p.s. That’s a big spread for a pellet in a multi-pump rifle, so I don’t know what is going on.

What about lead balls?
I figured someone would ask about shooting round lead balls out of this rifle so I tried it. First, there was difficulty finding a ball that worked. Since lead balls aren’t magnetic, they won’t feed properly through the BB feeding mechanism, so they have to be treated like pellets and fed from the clip. That eliminates all round balls smaller than a .177 pellet because they won’t stay in the clip long enough to feed into the barrel. The only round ball that worked somewhat was a Beeman Perfect Round, which is no longer made, but is similar to the H&N round ball. These measured 0.176 inches, which is close enough that they stuck in the pellet clip — sort of. When I tried shooting them, the two that were outside the receiver fell out of the clip on the first shot, so they’re not really large enough to use in this gun.

On five pumps, the one shot I fired went 407 f.p.s.; and on ten pumps, the other two shots went 502 and 519 f.p.s. I do not recommend this ammunition in this airgun.

Impressions thus far
Today, I got past the appearance and had a good look at the functioning of the rifle. The fact that the clip has to be indexed by hand for every shot slows you down more than you might imagine. Like I said in the first report, making a multi-pump a repeater sort of misses the mark. The time that it takes to get ready for the next shot negates any speed the repeating mechanism offers.

My test gun is shooting slower than the advertised top velocity of 625 f.p.s. for this rifle. It’s close, at 581 with Copperhead BBs, but not close enough. Maybe the rifle needs to break in, or perhaps the 625 f.p.s. is what a lone maximum shot could potentially be.

74 Responses to “Crosman’s new M4-177 multi-pump air rifle: Part 2”

  • flobert Says:

    I liked the original “bolt action” 760, myself.

  • Anonymous Says:

    I think I would like to find a wood stocked, metal action 760 in good shape. It might be fun to plink with on occasion. But then again, since it is probably considered a collectable, it would probably cost more than what it would be worth to me.

  • twotalon Says:

    B.B.

    Maybe try some different pellets? I have some rifles of considerably different power levels that will not shoot a tight spread with CP. Even boxed CP. At this low power level, the hardness and size variability of the pellets used might prevent tight velocity spreads.

    I had something….Sheridan maybe…. that had a rubber bumper under the pump arm that reduced the handle slap to a thump.

    twotalon

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      twotalon,

      Yes, the more expensive multi-pumps all have a pad to silence the lever slap. But not this gun.

      B.B.

      • Slinging Lead Says:

        Nor does the Crosman American Classic 1377. Fortunately, rubber bumpers are easy to come by. Wally world has a wide assortment, along with felt pads used for the bottom of lamps to prevent scratches on wood furniture. I installed 4 or 5 in the forearm of my 1377. Now it is a satisfying ‘thud’ rather than the rickety ‘clack clack clack’. It is simply a must.

        • /Dave Says:

          Happy Thanksgiving, Everyone!

          BB and twotalon,

          Try using moleskin if you happen to have some in the medicine cabinet and don’t feel like making a trip to wally-world. Deadens it out some like the felt pads.

          Speaking of the big wally… Ours has the M417 in the right box for $84. Right next to a huge pile of 760′s for $25 each! Guess which one mr. cheapo snagged… Couldn’t resist it. The whole 760 for less than fixing my old one! (Which will still get fixed…, but still!! I wanted to compare the new with the old). Told the clerk there about the M417, and how the box will change after the first of the year, so it might become collectible. He says he probably wouldn’t be able to resist pulling it out and playing with it either….

          /Dave

          • /Dave Says:

            Ok, not exactly the same… I opened up the 760 and it is smooth-bore. My, my….. This this is so different from my ills 760. No time to shoot it yet, turkey is waiting…..!

            /Dave

            • Wulfraed Says:

              Presumably not the Google turkey… with the headgear, footwear, and four feathers that can be changed by clicking on them (or click the wing to watch it do “slot machine” and come up with a random set)

  • J-F Says:

    Why I use my 760 (very rarely) I don’t use the pellet clip, I carefully push on the bolt and watch the BB stuck on the end of the probe and held there by the magnet, it’s not hard and you’re sure there’s a BB in there, I started doing that because I bought the rifle as a store demo and it had no clips so until I found some clips it was the only way to try it and it’s what I’ve been doing since.

    J-F

  • Derrick Says:

    Have a good Thanksgiving everyone.

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Shelby sent this question to the wrong address.

    I have a Talon SS PCP and I want to know if there is a way to convert the EBOS to be able to use the PCP tank for my Talon on the EBOS. I know you can convert PCP to C02, so why not C02 to PCP?

    Shelby

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Shelby,

      Of course the EBOS can be converted to air. If you are willing to get just a handful of shots, you can just fill it to 900 psi with air and it will work as it is set up. That will give between five and ten shots. Be sure to lubricate the inside heavily with Pellgunoil before filling with air.

      To convert it to run on higher pressure air you need to machine a different firing valve that has a smaller port and a srtonger return spring. You might also change the angle of the valve seat to one that’s less steep, but I would first get the gun running on air the way I wanted it to before tackling that. You may have to machine several valves before you find the right set of operating values.

      Naturally all of this voids the warranty, but if you are in the gun that deeply you can repair almost anything that fails anyway.

      B.B.

      • Slinging Lead Says:

        Shelby

        Bryan & Associates sells an adapter to connect any CO2 paintball tank to an 88 gram cartridge fitting. If many shots are what you are after, this would be the way to go. The EBOS is a great gun.

        Happy Thanksgiving.

  • Ranger Finder Says:

    Do NFA rules apply if you add a fore grip? Can you add aftermarket stocks or grips? Does anyone make a FN SCAR style pellet rifle?

    First time posting. Enjoy the blog daily. Happy Thanksgiving.

    • Edith Gaylord Says:

      Range Finder,

      What state do you live in? Some states prohibit foregrips on firearms. If a foregrip can be attached to a firearm in a state where they’re prohibited, you’re not supposed to have one even if you plan to attach it to an airsoft gun or airgun. While the foregrip may not be intended for a firearm, it can be used that way, making it illegal to own one.

      I don’t know of anyone who makes a SCAR-style pellet rifle. There are plenty of airsoft versions, though. And that’s actually key. Since the airgun mfrs are making airsoft guns, more & more of the airsoft mfrs are now converting their airsoft guns to shoot steel BBs or pellets. I’m guessing it won’t be long before airsoft mfrs start making long guns that shoot pellets and/or steel BBs.

      Edith

      • J-F Says:

        I love that whole converting airsoft to airgun thing, I think some of the airsoft guns have a lot to offer especially in the details some manufacturers put in the stuff they make.
        Rifles like these:
        http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/D_Boy_KAR_98_Spring_Airsoft_Rifle/1626
        http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/WE_M14_Full_Size_Rifle_GBB/2250
        and a complete range of AR and AK style rifles

        Pistol like these:
        http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/HFC_HG_196_Full_Metal_Gas_Airsoft_Pistol/857
        http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/WE_P08_Metal_Gas_6_inch_barrel_airsoft_pistol/1643
        with a whole lot of more modern pistols you can mod to your own taste.

        I better go get some more CO2 powerlet just in case…

        These aren’t the most accurate but are hard to beat for plinking fun at empty soda cans in the backyard.
        You can also try to do like Slinging Lead and try not to run around the house making gun noise with your mouth but I think resistance is futile…

        J-F

        • Edith Gaylord Says:

          J-F,

          I’m surprised that the airsoft mfrs haven’t brought out green gas airguns and AEG airguns. That would be a huge game-changer.

          Edith

          • Vince Says:

            Edith, if you mean green-gas or electric pellet guns, there’s a good reason they don’t. Green gas (or propane) has a vapor pressure of about 110psig at 70 degrees. That’s good for about 2 1/2 lbs of force behind a .177 pellet. CO2 guns have about 8 times as much.

            The same sort of issue exists with electric guns, which work by having an electric motor cock a small spring-piston power plant. For a pellet gun a much, much bigger motor and pump assembly must be used to get reasonable performance. If I’m not mistaken this had been tried on a pellet gun before (BB has mentioned it), and didn’t work that well.

            The reason airsoft weapons can be made to look so realistic is that they don’t have to devote a huge volume to the powerplant, thanks to the lightweight ammo. A moderately powerful airsoft might propel a .25g ball (about 3 gr) at 300fps for a total of about .6 ft-lbs. A moderately powerful pellet gun, as you know, will require about 10 times that much power per shot.

  • Mr B Says:

    Happy Thanksgiving to all you wonderful folks!

    Bruce

  • cowboystar dad Says:

    Well it’s looking like this is a gun I’ll pass on. I know the boys would like it because of the looks, but barring this gun in particular has issues it’s sole reason for being purchased would be the ‘cool’ factor.
    Money better spent on the upcoming CZ rimfire.
    Which brings up a question that I’d like to pose for feedback.
    As I’ve mentioned it’s been 20 years since I’ve owned PBs.
    For general plinking, but with a view to being as accurate as possible what’s best, .22LR or .17HMR?
    Price of ammo not really relevant. I’ve read the reports, but what’s the ‘real world’ feeling on these two rounds.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      CSD,

      I have tested the 17 HMR and find that it is inaccurate in every rifle I’ve shot. The .17 HM2, on the other hand, is the most accurate rimfire I’ve ever shot. The HMR is a 3-inch cartridge (10 shots) at 100 yards in a quality gun. The HM2 goes well under an inch, and approaches a half-inch. And I haven’t yet seen an HM2 that was inaccurate.

      B.B.

      • Hank Mcrae Says:

        B.B.,
        Happy turkey day to you and yours! I like the 17 HM2, it looks to be a special cartridge. There is a very nice Cooper on GB right now for reasonable money, given the build quality and accuracy. A review of something in HM2 would be fantastic if you have something in your arsenal.
        I would like to give thanks to you, the regular and irregular posters and this blog. All of you have been regular part of my day for more than a year now, a part of my morning routine. Thanks again to all!
        -HM

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          Hank,

          A buddy of mine has built four .17 HM2 rifles so far and each of them is a tack-driver. One has an Anschutz barrel and the others have barrels of undetermined origins. They shoot just as good as the Anschutz.

          He’s working on the 5th rifle with a Green Mountain barrel and so far it seems to be headed in the same direction.

          I’ve not mentioned the rifle on this blog because I can’t really tie it in, but perhaps I will find a way.

          Same guy owns a 9477 Winchester, which is a very rare lever action in .17 HMR. The darn thing looks like new and is a scattergun in comparison.

          B.B.

  • Slinging Lead Says:

    I am really liking this M417 so far. I have had it for two days now. (Mrs. Slinging Lead recognized it as a new gun right away unfortunately, due to it looking like nothing else I own.)

    It is so much easier to pump than a 1377, and manually advancing a clip is still easier than fumbling around with tiny pellets in a poorly designed breech. Don’t get me wrong. I LOVE the 1377. I have two of them.

    Some of you might be relieved to know that I have so far resisted the temptation to run around the house, brandishing my M4 and making machine gun noises with my mouth.

    Now, what to put in the fake magazine? Peanut butter seemed like a good idea at first. It adds a just the right amount of weight, and makes the gun balance nicely. But it makes an awful mess.

    • notrocketsurgery Says:

      What to put in the fake magazine? Not peanut butter, for sure, as there ain’t no good place to put the Ritz crackers or the spoon. Up here in those wilds of nordern Wisconsin deer camps, in full swing today by the way, we recommend mini-marshmallows soaked with the medicinal brandy and rolled in crisp, crunchy venison bacon chips. The perfect food … fat, carbohydrate and protein all in one and you can eat ‘em with your gloves on. Actually, with a full load of BBs on board, there would be room in that funky little Crosman pellet pouch for crackers, if you are careful not to sit on ‘em. In any case … Happy Thanksgiving to all the families eaten’ turkey back at home and Good Huntin’ to the boys up north.

      • flobert Says:

        Make a magazine that dispenses malted-milk balls like a Pez dispenser lol. That would be cool.

        • Slinging Lead Says:

          notrocketsurgery

          Thanks for the tip. If I use a caviar spoon, it will fit in the magazine with the peanut butter. Ritz crackers in the pellet pouch. You are a genius.

          flobert

          I will work on that design. I would need to use the mini-sized malt balls probably, but Whoppers makes them. A large drum magazine could probably hold an entire carton of the normal ones.

  • cowboystar dad Says:

    Edith.
    Maybe you can help. For some reason, for the last week or so everytime I’ve posted it has taken up to an hour for my post to show.
    This morning I posted 45min ago and it is still not showing.

    • Edith Gaylord Says:

      Cowboystar Dad,

      You’re not signing in to your account. That might be the reason your posts are going to spam more frequently.

      Edith

  • cowboystar dad Says:

    Yet this one showed up immediately. My first post was asking opinions on .22 vs .17HMR. If you can make it appear that would be great, otherwise I’ll repost.
    Thanks

    • /Dave Says:

      Glad to know I’m not the only one….

      /Dave

      • Edith Gaylord Says:

        /Dave,

        You’re also not signing in to your account, and that may be the reason your comments are also showing up more often in the spam folder.

        I know this is happening. So, the first thing I do every morning is go on the blog & activate all the comments that have been caught up by the spam filter. During the day, I check the the blog comments about every 5-10 minutes. I do this until I go to sleep. If I get up in the middle of the night, I’ve also been known to turn on my computer & check the spam filter for comments that shouldn’t be there. Literally, I spend 12-15 hours a day, 7 days a week monitoring the blog comments because I know some legitimate comments are being held up by the filter.

        Pyramyd Air’s tech team is focused on the new site, Black Friday, Cyber Monday and other seasonal-related details, so any requests i have about the spam filter probably won’t be addressed until some time in 2012. We’ll have to wait til then to find a way around the spam filter for both you & Cowboystar Dad.

        If I were brilliant or at least smarter when it comes to this stuff, I could probably figure things out myself. I’ve recently figured out some things about the spam filter that’s caught more spam and allowed less to be posted. About 1/2 to 2/3 of the spam used to get posted to the live comments…now 2/3 to 3/4 of the spam gets caught by the filter & never sees the light of day.

        Edith

        • /Dave Says:

          Hi Edith and Tom, and Happy Thanksgiving!

          I thought I was signed in most of the time because it always shows my user name… Maybe just a cookie…

          You’re working way too hard at this lost post thing. I sometimes forget that this takes so much of your time, and for that I’m sorry. I can’t speak for the others, but if my posts get stuck, then it’s certainly not the end of the world for me. And it won’t affect how often I visit this blog, or try to post here. Many of my comments aren’t worth the time and effort of saving and when I get a little sarcastic about the filter, that’s just me blowing off steam. Not really looking for you our someone else to fix my world…. Please ignore those. If I feel my (really) rare of wisdom are being lost, I’ll repost them and no harm done.

          Have a Happy Thanksgiving and go eat too much and relax!

          /Dave

          • Edith Gaylord Says:

            /Dave,

            The blog is very important to me & Tom. Because I understand the aggravation of writing stuff only to have it disappear, I spend my time trying to make it right on the blog. Through a feature that Tom and I can access, I have a way of checking the spam filter & the comments for posted spam that takes about 2-5 seconds. That’s not a lot of time every 5-10 mins, which is why I continue to do it.

            We’ll be going to the local Chinese buffet for our Thanksgiving dinner. It’s a fantastic restaurant, and we actually get takeout from them several times a week.

            Edith

            • Slinging Lead Says:

              Just like Ralphie and his family in “A Christmas Story”. Only….thanksgiving. That is just too perfect. The movie never gets old.

              I must look into this eating out on Thanksgiving thing. It seems to me to be the ideal solution.

              What do you guys usually order on a typical night? Inquiring minds want to know.

              • Edith Gaylord Says:

                SL,

                What do we eat? We like meat! We also eat vegetables.

                I’ve got a big freezer chest that I need to fill…and I’d like to fill it with game meat :-)

                Edith

              • B.B. Pelletier Says:

                SL

                I eat chicken. I would eat Kung Pao chicken only at this place they put shrimp in it and I don’t care for that. When we eat there I usually go to the Mongolian grill and get the hottest stuff that can be made.

                B.B.

            • flobert Says:

              Chinese buffet sounds awesome! I might try making crab cakes here at home, I actually have all the ingredients all in one place.

  • cowboystar dad Says:

    It looks like my original post is gone…so here goes (feel free to delete on if necessary Edith).
    From the looks of the performance of this gun, cool as it looks I think I’ll take a pass….though I know my two sons will disagree ;-)
    Instead I’ll put the cash towards the aforementioned CZ455FS.
    Now…I’d like to ask for some real world opinions. It’s been 20 years since I’ve shot powderburners. At that time .17 was an exotic that just wasn’t common in our parts.
    But, cost aside, for general plinking, with an eye towards being as accurate as possible, what would be best to get this gun in….22LR or .17HMR?

    • BG_Farmer Says:

      .17 HM2 is liked by many, but the last time I checked, there was only one manufacturer (but under several labels) of the ammunition, which may explain why it is so consistently accurate — what if they change it :)? .22LR can be as accurate (and expensive) as you could wish up to 100 yards under the right conditions and can also be cheap in bulk for close range plinking. If you have no rimfires, .22LR is the first one to have, and I’ve never felt the need for anything else. The CZ’s are known for accuracy, as are the Mk II Savages, so I doubt you’ll be disappointed at 50 yards compared to springers.

  • Slinging Lead Says:

    CSD

    I think the .22lr is the way to go. Ammunition will be much easier to find, and with many more choices. The availability of ammunition choices can make the difference between an accurate gun, and a complete dud.

    • flobert Says:

      Also, look at B.B.’s comment on here about the HMR vs. the HM2, the HMR will shoot 3-inch groups at 100 yards, the HM2 however is very accurate. I myself have never seen HM2 ammo at Wally’s only HMR and I’m very skeptical of any round that’s been in existence less than 50 years so ….. .22lr.

  • Victor Says:

    B.B.,
    This may be a stupid idea, but I’d like to see an air gun (especially like this one), where you can pump it, say 20 times, and get two or more shots out of it. Are there any guns like this, where you can store enough air for multiple shots (without needing an external fill source)? If not, then maybe someone should make one. After all, PCP air tubes can be filled with a pump. Why not make a pumper that can fill more air for more shots?
    Victor

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Victor,

      Such pneumatics have been around since the 1940s. The survival airguns from the Philippines worked that way. I used to own one. Also the Yewah BBB Dynamite shotgun from Korea worked like that. 150 pumps to begin with then 20 for each shot. Many were converted to PCPs because people thought they took too much effort to charge.

      Right now FX makes one that is very costly, but it is an idea that has come back again and again.

      B.B.

      • Bristolview Says:

        B.B. – I’ve been trying to find out about those Survival rifles from the Philippines. Do you have any information you could share on them? I’d like to learn more about them, and if anything like them is made today (excluding the FX $$$$Independence).

        Everybody – On that note, I’m planning a multiple week off grid trek without much in the way of supplies to keep things light. I’d like to take an airgun to help augment when snares fail. In a previous post, you had chosen the Benjamin 392 as your desert island rifle. That’s my choice too, but it’s sort of heavy. In the spirit of a) keeping it as light as possible (within reason) and b) reliable and c) powerful enough to take small creatures up to and including a squirrel and d) self-contained. Any recommendations? Pistol preferred, but there aren’t many that have respectable power and accuracy (Alecto? HB22? 1377/22?). I suspect I’ll end up with a rifle though, to reach out a little farther and a bit more power. I’ve been shooting PCP for years, and they don’t fit the bill. I’m out of date for the multi-pumps and gas piston models. Would love to hear from everybody. Thanks!

        • J-F Says:

          What I think you need is a Crosman 2289 “backpacker” it’s part 1322 but with a longer, nice larger pump handle to not pinch your digits and a shoulder stock you can remove without using a screw driver. Google it, it’s a nice, light weight, take down carbine.
          Maybe you can find a used one in the state or some Canadian dealers may still have some they could ship south of the border, if you can’t find one you could easily make one minus the “no screw driver” part to take the shoulder stock off.

          J-F

          • Bristolview Says:

            Agreed, I know this one. Crosman doesn’t sell them in the US, just in Canada I think. I even went to Crosman over in Bloomfield, about 6 miles away, no luck. I believe they have something on them to prevent their power from going past a certain limit. I think one of these would be ideal, is it in .22? I was thinking of starting with a 1377 and converting it to 22, then adding the carbine shoulder stock (or making one). It wouldn’t come off as cleanly as the Backpacker, but it is still easy enough to do. I like the pump grip on the Backpacker MUCH better though. I was also wondering if the 1377/22 could squeeze a little more foot-pounds out, not sure. Anyone know of a source for the Backpacker?

            • Slinging Lead Says:

              I wish I had seen this conversation yesterday. I have a 1377 converted to .22 cal. with an 18 inch barrel. You could specify a shorter barrel if length is an issue for you. I also purchased the 2289 forearm from Crosman and the carbine stock, so it looks just like a 2289. One of my neighbors kids would have given me his left eye for it. Here is a photo of the gun:

              http://www.pyramydair.com/customer-product-images/m/Crosman_1377C_PC77/198

              I love those multi-pump pneumatics! My favorite is the Sheridan Blue Streak with rocker safety.

              • J-F Says:

                They make very nice little carbines, I don’t know why they stopped making them… I have two 2289′s, one I plan to keep stock and another one for modding… eventualy ;-)
                I’m not a big multi-pump fan, but 2289′s are different, I’m not getting rid of them.

                J-F

              • Bristolview Says:

                I haven’t modded one of these before (as if I’ve ever modded an airgun, nope). Do you have a few pointers of what parts you used, and where to get them? I’d want to start with the standard 1377 and switch to 22 with the 2289 foregrips (I really dislike the foregrips on the 1377). Not sure where to start.

          • Bristolview Says:

            The 2289 has a muzzle velocity of 495fps due to an air bleed valve to meet Canadian restrictions. That’s still not too bad for a small game/pest 22. It’s at the bottom of the range I’d be comfortable using, but at short range it’s acceptable.

            For those who have turned their 1377′s into a 1322, what muzzle velocity are you getting? This is a round about way of asking if I’d be better off modding a 1377, or trying to find a 2289. Advice, opinions and options are welcome. Thanks.

            • J-F Says:

              Yes you are right it is limited to 495fps in STOCK form…
              Like every other 22XX series of airguns it has an awesome aftermarket support, holes can easily be pluged and valve opening can be slighty enlarged, the piston can also be swapped to a more efficient one, they’ve been modded and registered as firearm here. Parts that fit the 2240 like the breach (breech), trigger, barrels etc are all interchangeable.
              The fun thing about the 2289 that a home made one will lack is the small spring loaded latch that holds the shoulder stock in place. If you want to put it on the stock will just snap in place and when you want to take it off you simply press that small latch and the stock will slide right off, no screws to loose (and/or lose).

              Try some canadian online retailers, some may be willing to ship one to you.

              Sadly it’s been pulled from the Crosman line-up, once they’re all gone it’s over. I think they’ll still be sold in the UK if i remember right, it’s called the Rat Catcher over there I think and the front sights can be taken off and a nice treaded barrel, perfect to fit a silencer is exposed, sigh…

              J-F

              • Bristolview Says:

                By home made – are you referring to modding a 1377 or something like that? If not the 1377, which?
                You’re right, this does seem like a good choice. I like the easy on/off stock as well. Out of the box, it seems like a decent fit for my need. A little tweaking, and it sounds like it would move from decent to pretty good. The 1377 isn’t a great fit until converted to 22, so I’m thinking starting with a 2289 might be a good choice. I assume the pumper mechanism is like the other Crosman ones, and just as reliable.
                Thanks for reminding me about this model, I remembered it as soon as you mentioned it. Seems like a gap in the Crosman lineup, wish they’d bring it back.

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          Bristolview,

          I believe the Farco survival rifle is still being made. The reason it isn’t imported is that it was a terrible bother to pump and was inaccurate. After the first honest test they couldn’t give them away.

          The Yehaw BBB Dynamite air shotgun was pretty much in the same boat. The same 25 have been passed aroud through all the active airgunners and they are all in perfect condition, because nobody wants to trouble themselves to pump them.

          B.B.

          • Bristolview Says:

            Thanks BB. I guess I won’t bother to look for them then. Sounds like the Crosman 2289 or a modded 1377/22 might be a better fit. I’d like a Webley Alecto, but it’s hard to justify that cost compared with the Crosman options listed.

    • kevin Says:

      Victor,

      I’ll add the Benjamin (ACP) MKII to the list of pumpers that you can pump up once (8 pumps for this Benjamin 392 version) and get multiple shots (3 with this version). This is an affordable, tried and true platform, that can be purchased new or used.

      On the other end of the new gun spectrum is the FX Independence that B.B. mentioned. I’ve shot scot heaths. It’s a big bulky gun with tremendous accuracy. Not a gun I would own because I have carbon fiber tanks to fill any pcp. The savings of the cost of a pump or tank still wouldn’t sway me into spending the money this gun is bringing. Totally self contained and accurate is selling this gun though.

      kevin

    • Victor Says:

      Then maybe it wasn’t such a bad idea after all. :)
      In any case, such a feature would be great for a self contained semi-auto gun, which this air-rifle could have been (or some other model). I wouldn’t mind pumping a gun 30 or 40 times if I could get 6 or 10 decent shots out of it. It would make something like an M4 a real novelty!

    • J-F Says:

      I’ve been dreaming of such a rifle for a long time and can’t quite figured out why someone with machining and gunsmithing ability hasn’t found a way to hook a pump directly to the Discovery, it would still be about the size of a career rifle I think.
      It would make an awesome rifle.

      J-F

  • Tyler Says:

    Is the Air Force Condor on is lowest power setting as loud as a Talon SS? Thank you in advance.

  • Herb Says:

    RE: “Notice how much lead has smeared to the back of the lands and sticks out like a small tail as an extrusion at the rear of each channel. This is what barrel maker Harry Pope said was ruinous to accuracy, because it’s influenced by the expanding gasses at the instant the bullet leaves the muzzle. In other words, it’s the equivalent of a poor crown.”

    Always learn something. It makes perfect sense that something that would disrupt airflow over pellet could affect POI.

  • jonathan Says:

    you doubt the power of a gun too much. some one on a forum shot a fox squirrel in the head and killed it. i shot a couple squirrels in the chest with a 1377 and kill them, no follow ups necessary.

    • Edith Gaylord Says:

      jonathan,

      At what distance? 5 ft? 5 yards? 50 ft? 50 yards?

      Edith

      • jonathan Says:

        the squirrels with the 1377 were killed with pointed at a distance of about 10-15 yards. two with the gun completely stock, and the other few with a carbine stock attatched. the M-417 kill was at 20 yards gun scoped with gamo hunters.

  • will Says:

    I got this gun just the other day and I plan to go out in the field and hunt down wabbits but I want to know will this gun kill a wabbit. On the box it says it will but on the website it says it is only for pest control. (i am using pellets) Thanks

    • Wulfraed Says:

      I’d be hesitant to go ratting with it.

      Based on the reported average velocity at 10 pumps and pellet weight, using the PA calculator, it only produces 4.9ft-lbs of muzzle energy. I recall having read articles recommending a MINIMUM of 5ft-lbs (terminal — that is, downrange/retained) energy for small birds and rodents, and using head shots at that.

      Using ChairGun Pro, you would need to achieve 600fps with a 7.9 gr pellet to retain 5ft-lb of energy at 20 yards. Which might be suitable for (de)braining flying rats (pigeons), and maybe even ground rats if they are small (rattus rattus but not rattus norvegicus). Note that 600fps is 70fps faster than the review gun averaged.

      Any larger prey probably needs a gun that starts around 12ft-lbs, used out to about 25 yards. If the prey is known for a thick hide, 20ft-lbs may be better (dispatching ‘coons caught in traps at under 5 yards).

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Will,

      This air rifle is not powerful enough for humane hunting. Please don’t do it!

      B.B.

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