by B.B. Pelletier
Announcement: Shivashankar Raghu is this week’s winner of Pyramyd Air’s Big Shot of the Week on their facebook page. He’ll receive a $50 Pyramyd AIR gift card! Congratulations!
Shivashankar says this is his 4-year-old son with his dad’s Diana Model 23 on the boy’s first day at their club!
The FWB 300S is considered the gold standard of vintage target air rifles.
We’ll look at accuracy today, but this isn’t our last look at the 300S. You convinced me to take this rifle to the range and test it at 50 yards. I’ll do that, but I have to have a perfectly calm day for it. Kevin also convinced me to test weight-sorted pellets against pellets straight from the tin, so that’s how I’ll do the test. I want to use domed pellets at that distance, so today I’ll be looking for a good one that the rifle likes.
More 300S trivia
Mac sent a batch of photos to show some details that few people have ever seen. I’ll show a couple today and more in the next report.
Remember the Running Target rifle we talked about last time? Well Mac sent photos to show how the loading port differs from the one found on the standard 300S match rifle. The port is the same size, but FWB has rotated it to the right to make access for loading a little easier. I guess they expected a lot of right-handed RT shooters, or more likely they also built one in a left-hand version. Mac’s is the right-hand rifle.
The standard 300S loading port is centered on top of the spring tube, to be equally accessible from either side.
On the right-hand Running Target rifle, the loading port is rotated to the right for better access from that side.
Accuracy
All of today’s shooting was done from a rest at 10 meters. I attached the Gehmann color filter wheel to the rear aperture and used the yellow filter to sharpen the bulls. It seemed to work okay. Unless I were to use it for a lot longer, I really could not say that it adds anything. I don’t shoot a 10-meter rifle often enough to notice things like that.
Pellet head size is important when shooting a target rifle, and I shot pellets with heads of 4.50mm and 4.52mm, but none with a 4.51mm. Interestingly, the 4.50mm heads ranged from bad to good; so even when you have a single head size, you aren’t done looking for the right pellet.
Pellets that didn’t make the grade
I tried nine pellets in this test. Seven were wadcutters and two were domes. RWS Hobby pellets and Gamo Match were the two that didn’t cut it. Both shot so poorly that I didn’t waste any time with them. Oddly, in the test of the FWB 150 I did last year, RWS Hobbys were tied with H&N Finale Match Pistol pellets as the best ones. Go figure!
I shot two 5-shot groups each with the other 7 pellets. And with 6 of the 7 pellets, the second group was smaller than the first. That lends support to the notion that an airgun barrel needs to be seasoned before it will perform its best.
Honorable mention
The following pellets did okay, and I would have continued to use them if I had nothing better. Each of them seemed to want to do better than they were doing, but I tried an extended test with one of them and it didn’t pan out.
The RWS R10 Match Pistol pellet came the closest to making the final cut. Maybe if I shot it more it might improve. But the best group of five I got measured 0.153 inches between centers.
I tried the Vogel match pellet that Scott Pilkington makes here in the U.S. It’s a great match pellet, but for some reason the 300S didn’t care for it that much. This is the pellet I shot four groups with, but the best of them measured 0.192 inches between centers. No dice!
JSB S100 Match pellets were another tease. The best group measured 0.113 inches between centers, but in the end it just wasn’t enough to make the cut. This was the only pellet I tried that had a head size of 4.52mm. All the others were 4.50mm. This pellet did very well in an Edge match rifle from AirForce, so I thought it might have a chance here, but no dice.
The one domed pellet that I thought might work but didn’t was the Air Arms Falcon pellet. The best group out of two was 0.167 inches between centers. It was a nice, round group; and because this isn’t a wadcutter, the group looks about half the size it really is. With domes, you have to make extra allowances for the skirt that tears through the target paper.
The winners
Three pellets showed great promise in the 300S, and one of them was superb. The JSB Exact RS was the best domed pellet, putting 5 shots into a beautiful round group that measured just 0.111 inches between centers. Because these groups are all so small, I’ve enlarged the photos for you to see them better. My dime is in the photo for reference. This is the pellet I will take out to 50 yards.
JSB Exact RS pellets made a nice small, round group. They will be shot at 50 yards in this gun.
I tried both H&N Finale Match Pistol pellets and H&N Finale Match Rifle pellets in the 300S, and both turned in a wonderful performance. These are the pellets the gun likes best. The Finale Match Pistol pellets turned in a group that measured 0.117 inches between centers. It looked very good when I saw it, but one that’s even better was yet to come.
That’s a nice tight group of five H&N Finale Match Pistol pellets. It measures 0.117 inches between centers.
The best pellet of the day was the last one I shot — the H&N Finale Match Rifle pellet. Five of them went onto a group measuring 0.097 inches.
H&N Finale Match Rifle pellets made this group that measures 0.097 inches between centers. Now, that is a group!
So we found out what we knew all along: the FWB 300S is an accurate target rifle. Just for fun, I checked back to the test of the FWB 150 and saw that the best two groups with that rifle measured 0.119 inches between centers, so I did a little better with this one. On any given day, I suppose either rifle would emerge the victor. But I like the firing behavior of the 300S a little better.
The next time you see this rifle, it will have fired those JSB Exact RS pellets at 50 yards. What a day that will be!
I find the whole thing with different pellets having different accuracy with different rifles fascinating, though I don’t really have either the patience or a high enough standard of marksmanship to really be able to investigate it too deeply myself! I tried a number of different types in my HW-30 and found that H&N’s seem to work well so I’ve just stuck with them for everything else I’ve owned. I would love to see someone try an experiment involving a few examples of the same model of high quality rifle to see if there were still differences in pellet preference despite the rifles being as identical as possible.
Perhaps Mac could loan B.B. a couple of his 300s. Or if B.B. wasn’t up to it, I would not mind volunteering to do such. I could even drive up and get them. The bad thing is I would probably get addicted to them and would have to buy one of them. : )
RidgeRunner,
If Mac doesn’t sell all his 300S rifles at the Arkansas show in April he’ll probably have a few to bring to Roanoke this year. He’s getting them all resealed right now.
B.B.
Don’t ever expect two different rifles of the same kind to shoot the same pellets the best. It may happen, and it may not.
twotalon
nowhere,
I own multiple examples of the same model of airgun. Mostly 10 meter guns although at one time I had 4 FWB 124’s. With rare exception they all preferred a different pellet. Surprisingly the more powerful FWB 124’s all either preferred/were most accurate with the crosman premier lights (in the cardboard box) or the older beeman fts pellets. The R7’s and HW30’s didn’t have a uniform pellet preference although jsb exact express performed very well in most. These are only two model examples but there are many.
At 10 meters the difference in pellet accuracy in the same model is minimal but at 25 yards it’s clear.
Finding the most accurate pellet and perfecting the hold on a springer is motivation to shoot for me. I usually don’t have the patience to shoot a gun with the same pellet if the accuracy is ho hum so I keep searching for the “right pellet and right hold.”
I don’t have an explanation for this phenomenon. I think it might be the difference in power within the same model, quality of the barrel since they can differ from run to run, the degree of tune or lack thereof, difference of harmonics since each model must vary slightly just like the same model of musical instrument is different or a combination of all of these things.
It’s puzzling but fascinating. Guess this hobby would be boring to me if I knew automatically what hold and what pellet was needed in each model of airgun for sale.
kevin
Thanks! That’s the sort of thing I was wondering about.
Hello B.B. and fellow airgun aficionados. I’m really getting into this test of the Feinwerkbau 300s. I first saw one in 1975 or 76, when an acquaintance who was into 10 meter shooting, called me up to come have a look at his new acquisition. Not being familiar with an airgun that wasn’t a break barrel, I wasn’t impressed with the side lever. I thought it would force the shooter into canting to the right. When I picked it up, I was astounded at the weight. Not yet into tournament shooting, I had no idea that this was the plan. Also, the almost strait up and down of the pistol type grip was foreign to my uneducated hands. It wasn’t until a week later, I went out to watch him shoot it, I started to clue in to the reasons for all these designs and started to receive quite an education. I have learned to love this particular rifle over time. And would love to own one for myself. I am stile partial to break barrels though. In fact, I just recently purchased a Weihrauch HW35e in .177 cal., that now sports a Tau 200 peep sight. I could go on for a few paragraphs all the things a like about this rifle. So, back to the 300s.
As for the 50 meter test, I was surprised when the Falcon pellets didn’t pan out ,and the RS Exact turned out such nice groups. I was under the impression they where one and the same pellet. Both made by JSB,only the Falcons where stamped with the Air Arms brand name. They both are 7.33 grains and 4.52 mm. A fellow showed me a tin of the new Daystate Li pellets he brought back from England, and they look like Crosman 7.9 grain lites to my eyes. Maybe you could do a Blog about the this in the future. It can get confusing and expensive. I bought a tin of 400 Daystate Select FT pellets a while back, only to come to the conclusion they where JSB Exact Diabolos in 4.51 mm. I got 100 less pellets for $2.00 more cash. Oh well, the tin has a real nice design on it. I also like the way you stagger the blogs so that there are 2 and 3 tests going on at the same time. It does seem to make for more work for you, although you must have a master plan you work with. Lastly, Thank you Edith and B.B. for a most informative blog. I know I must have said this before, however it is something I need to say more than once.
Ciao Titus
Titus,
Like you I also thought Falcons and RS were the same, but testing in other rifles has taught me different. That’s why I am more cautious about saying what pellet by one name is the same as another these days, unless I know for sure.
It makes a big difference when you use the right pellet, as this test showed. And remember, I shot two groups with each pellet, so the Falcons were given a chance.
B.B.
Batch to batch variation? Lots of possibilities still consistent with same maker and an intent to be the same regardless of label. Would the maker/packager answer an e-mail?
PZ
PeteZ,
Don’t know the answer to your questions.
I’ve read comments over the years about relabeled pellets from the same maufacturer that had identical specs, i.e., weight, head size, “hey they even look the same when you open the tins”, etc., etc., BUT they shoot differently.
My first, FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE, was with air arms field pellets vs. jsb in .22 cal in a diana 54.
I remember as a newbie posting that they shot differently in my gun and getting ridiculed because everyone claimed they were the same pellet. Yes, they were from the same manufacturer (JSB) and Yes, they looked the same but at the long ranges I was shooting (100 yards) they were different performers. I learned quickly during that period that many “airgunners” would rather be posting echoing others tripe than offering first hand information.
The latest pellet(S) that are in the crosshairs of airgunners are the air arms falcons vs. the jsb rs pellets. Same weight, same manufacturer, look the same, etc. etc.
“Batch to batch variation?” Don’t know. The story is that Air Arms (Falcon Pellets) required jsb to use their “mold/extruder” to make the falcon pellets and jsb used their own for the rs pellets.
“Lots of possibilities still consistent with same maker and an intent to be the same regardless of label.” Agreed.
All I know is that although the jsb rs pellets and air arms falcon pellets look the same, have the same head size and weigh the same they perform differently in all of my guns. Sometimes the falcons are best and sometimes the rs are best. Confused? Me too.
kevin
I did not contend that there weren’t performance differences; clearly there seem to be. I was just casting about for reasons. One thing I’ve never heard anybody do is look under the skirt of the pellet to see the differences in the molding inside. When I invert pellets and look, I see fairly large differences on the “inside.” Could result in significantly different weight distributions and ballistic performance. If anybody has both Falcon and RS pellets, could we get a picture of their undersides?
pz
B.B.
I have seen rifles needing various numbers of shots to settle in when switching pellets. Sometimes it does not matter, other times it takes one, or two, or 5, or even 10 shots. That’s without barrel cleaning or pellet lube (other than what if any was applied at the factory).
Now, let’s switch pellets again (either or both). Don’t expect the same results.
twotalon
TT,
I think I understand what you are saying, but I’m not sure. Are you implying that if I retested these pellet I would get significantly different results?
What would you do about that?
B.B.
B.B.
What I’m getting at (without enough coffee or beer in my blood…yet) is that the sequence that you test pellets in can require more or fewer shots to get the rifle settled when switching pellets. Also, some rifles are not as touchy about it.
As an example, lets say I am going through a list of pellets in order. When I come to CP, I had better shoot quite a few before looking very close. Then if I switch to another kind, I had better shoot quite a few again. Not as much of a problem if I am shooting H&N in order. Those CP scrape the bore hard and both remove and add different fouling (if you want to call it that). For that reason, I always shoot CP last, then shoot a bunch of the best pellet to “undo” what the CP did.
Then there is something else…
When shooting a pellet that the rifle REALLY does not like (vibration, smoke, and ratty looking chrono) it takes quite a few shots for the rifle to settle with a better working pellet. I think the rifle scavenges lube and changes the bore texture a lot when this has happened. It takes time for the barrel and power plant both to stabilize again.
The rifle is making it’s own rules as to what it is going to do and what you can get away with.
Did that help?
twotalon
B.B.
Another sip of coffee…
I guess I did not get your question answered right…
As long as you used enough shots to get the rifle stabilized for each pellet, then the results should be about the same. The order in which you shoot them could require more or fewer shots when switching.
twotalon
TT,
Okay, I’ll leave things the way they are, for now.
I am sensitive to the seasoning issue and i try to watch for it as I test. That was why I conducted the test as I did. I’m not saying I got it perfect, but I think the Falcons got tested properly.
The only other thing I know to do would involve shooting ten groups of ten shots with both pellets and seeing what the numbers say. That might be a nice thing to ponder, but we’re talking about a full day’s-worth of shooting, to test two pellets. And the report might be pretty boring.
However, you have given me something to think about.
B.B.
B.B.
I know you don’t have the time to spend days or weeks trying to find out what the personality of every rifle is like. That goes for chrono, perfect shooting conditions, and not so good shooting conditions.
They are all different. Some generalities apply, some don’t. I think too many people are always looking for sure fire “always” and “never” answers. It just don’t work out that way.
twotalon
twotalon,
Once upon a time I did a very unscientific pellet test. I described it here. Frankly it wasn’t a test as much as it was a reason to shoot.
We used 2 guns. One was an R8 and the other was a FWB 300. Two of us shot twelve 10 shot groups with the same pellet. We did this with the 3 pellets that were most accurate. This took us 3 or 4 times of getting together to shoot. We unscientifically discovered two things when comparing our shooting. Although the groups shrank during the “seasoning” of the barrel is was almost immeasurable. Smaller size groups could have been attributable to our “becoming one with the gun” and just getting more and more used to the trigger, scope, firing behaviour, etc. What was very clear, in both of our targets, is that the center of the groups shifted similarly at about the same time and stablized, i.e., after 50 shots the center of the group wasn’t at 3 o’clock to the bull it was now at 1 o’clock.
I still don’t know if this is about seasoning the bore or the internals or ?? but once I’ve found the most accurate pellet in a gun I won’t let anyone shoot another type of pellet in that gun.
kevin
Kev…
I can believe it. Probability of both bore condition and power plant condition getting completely stabilized.
Never switching pellets for even one shot is a good policy. Have seen this with both airguns and rimfires.
twotalon
I really noticed the “seasoning” effect shooting at 60 yards, and it was uncannily consistent.
After shooting a pellet like, say, the Crosman Premier and getting the sights zero’d in, I would then switch to another pellet with a different alloy. Say, something like a Gamo Hunter. Invariably the first shot would land fairly close to POA, the next would be further off, until a new POI finally stabilized oh, maybe, 6-10″ from where the first pellet hit.
I observed this effect repeatedly.
Hi BB, it’s really great to see this one on the blog! The FWB’s are certainly aristocrats, and the first guns I drag out to show guys who “don’t like springers,” LOL.
FWIW, I own a model 300 and two 300S’s, and much like your notes on the 150, the older 300 is much less pellet-fussy. Mine is a homely beech-stocked one but seems to magically possess laser-like accuracy with whatever lead I toss into it!
The S’s (one a Daisy import identical to yours) are capable of stupendous accuracy, but are much choosier; again like yours, they like JSB round-heads very much.
A historical note, the 150 was made about 1963-68; the 300 from 1969-72; and the 300S from ’72 to the end of production. The 300 is harder to find simply because there are fewer of them out there. It’s distinguishing features are stock similar (but not identical) to the 150; a cocking arm shorter than the 150 but longer than the 300S; and a longer barrel than either the 150 or 300s.
“Transitional” 300/300S rifles, i.e. those mixing features of the two, are surprisingly common; you will notice that the wood on your Daisy-marked rifle is cut so that it can accept the longer model 300 cocking arm, for example.
Mike,
Thanks for your notes! I just looked at my 300S and, sure enough, the wood is cut for a longer cocking lever. I never noticed that before!
Mac has sent photos of various curious things that I will show in the next installment. Like you, he is fascinated by these rifles, and has a small collection of them.
B.B.
From the interesting things at the bottom of the swamp to the king of the springers in one day! Can’t wait for the FWB’s 50 yd test and the updated, reworked B-7!
/Dave
Looks like the distance from Roosevelts eyebrow to his lips is c-t-c of that last group shot with H & N match rifle pellets. Doesn’t matter who shot it a nice group always brings a smile to my face.
All the FWB 300’s I’ve owned reward the shooter with accuracy if the shooter does their part. Very fine airguns.
kevin
Wow. And the rejects are the pellets pushing a whopping two tenths of an inch!
Nice shooting! Nice rifle!
-Jan
Howdy Mr. B.B., Ms. Edith & The Gang, Know nuttin’ about this gun, but ya’lls discussion of pellets is GREAT stuff. Thanx to all for your comments. Have a great weekend. Ride/shoot safe, Beaz
Robert Law.
The rare FWB scope stops that have the hardened cross pin are tough for me to find. I’ve run across a few but have never been willing to pay the prices. Missed one the other day on ebay that sold for $40.00. A bargain.
Please notice the sellers name in this link, “pastorbob”. This guy consistently has NOS airgun stuff and especially beeman marked stuff. I think I remember reading somewhere that Robert Law (former owner of Air Rifle Headquarter aka ARH) got into the ministry after closing his airgun business. Does anyone know if the seller “pastorbob” is Robert Law?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160739215559&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBUAA:US:3160
kevin
Kevin,
Robert Law did become a minister. I don’t know if this is him or not, but that would be my guess.
I will show the cross-pin you mention in the next part of this series. Mac sent it, but I didn’t run it today.
B.B.
B.B.,
Thanks. Interesting. (Probably only to me though LOL!)
1 + 1 usually equals 2
kevin
Kevin,
Been a good many years since I sat on the edge of my twin bed as a teen and looked longingly at an Air Rifle Headquarters catalog, but I am just about 100% positive they were located in West Virginia.
I followed your link and the seller stated he was in Indiana, and originally from Wisconsin.
Unless maybe he just doesn’t want to admit the West Virginia part?
Kevin,
http://myworld.ebay.com/pastorbob3
Found the above picture of him, definitely not – looks like he would of been born about the time ARH went into business.
Detective Volvo,
Good job. Doubt if that’s Robert Law. The mystery remains as to how this guy gets his hands on so much nos airgun stuff.
Been back to your honey hole lately?
kevin
Kevin,
No trips back to the honey hole, not sure if it is even still open. I think Derek helped him sell off a good bit of the NOS.
By chance, the owner worked for ARH back in the day.
So, are we back to five shot groups? That puts our best at 1 MOA which is significantly bigger than the listed accuracy for the FWB pcps, but still extremely good! How do you tell the difference between the seasoning process and other factors like shooter warm-up and getting used to the general shooting behavior of different kinds of pellets? I don’t know that the physics of debris lining the barrel has ever been really clear to me.
BG_Farmer, thanks for the translation. I believe that passage would have been beyond me even at my mediocre best. Nice sentiment, but I think he evaded a subtle point. If you’re nice, you may not need weapons, but you had better know how to take a licking. Jet Li, the Kung Fu superstar said something similar on his web page to a guy asking for advice. The guy said that he enjoyed studying Kung Fu, but he was getting challenged to fight all the time and he didn’t know how to respond without betraying the Buddhist ideals of peace that he admired. Jet Li responded that he should just let himself get beat up until the aggressors got bored and left him alone…. I think this is a point that was lost on the UC Davis protestors that got pepper-sprayed. Non-violent protest is a great ideal, but it doesn’t mean that the police have to lay off you when you break the law. Non-violence means that you endure the punishments of the law as part of your protest. After frightening off the police and chancellor here at UC Davis, the protestors now have a bunch of mangy and unsightly-looking tents on the quad. And now they are barricading the campus bank and not letting anyone enter. It’s kind of irritating.
Mike, that is one fascinating background. I understand that firearms use for prison guards is confined to the watchtowers which are secured individually. The guards that interact with prisoners do not have guns which makes some sense but seems pretty dicey to me. Is it true that the term “deadline” used for due dates is derived from a line that prisoners cannot cross without getting shot?
So, with your knowledge and your experience with the AR, I’m curious to know your opinion. What do you think of the reliability of the gun, lethality of the caliber, and the heat retention in the bolt? (I understand that the bolt gets hot enough to fry a steak after sustained firing.) And, most importantly, what about the accuracy? Working backwards from the super-deluxe models that are reported with phenomenal groups, I’m guessing that if you took any rifle out of the field like you see in Afghanistan and remove the match ammo, and the expensive parts, and didn’t clean it, then hung accessories on it, you would be lucky to go under 3 MOA. What do you think?
Matt61
Matt,
I always shoot 5-shot groups with 10-meter guns at 10 meters. Usually I mention that I’m departing from the normal 10-shot groups, but this time I forgot to mention it.
B.B.
BB,
Just curious. Why do you only need 5 shots to characterize a 10m gun but 10 for other airguns?
pete
Pete,
It’s a judgement call, but here is the reason. Ten meters is too close to see dramatic differences in accuracy. So five shots does the job well enough. If I did ten, the hole would be only a little larger, yet it would look larger than people are used to seeing normal five-shot groups and I wouldn’t hear the end of it. They would tell me that their Daisy 853 can do that well, and so on. They wouldn’t think of the difference between five-shot groups and ten-shot groups — just how their groups looked, compared to mine. I have tried this in the past, so what I’m saying is based on experience.
If I were to shoot the same gun at 25 yards I could shoot a 10-shot group, because no one would ever think their rifle could do as well. If they did, I would just suggest that they try it at 25 yards and they either would and would then know their rifle isn’t that accurate or they would tell me they don’t have the room to try it. Either way, they would accept the groups.
B.B.
Matt61,
Regarding your question yesterday about the effects of an air-guns recoil and mapping, I’ll need to do some test’s to try to capture the effects of the firing mechanism and how they translate into “recoil”. It’s now been 10 months since I’ve shot an airgun, so I don’t remember exactly how they “kick”. But if I recall correctly, a springer has more of s SLAM, than a recoil, and that slam causes the rifle to seemingly move in almost unpredictable directions, at least as much as from front to back, or back to front.
From memory, I have found that if I don’t use the artillery hold, that I can actually get tight groups, but then if I, intermittently, do relax more then I can get at least 2 tight groups from the same shot string. It feels as if the rifle wants to jump against any force that you apply on it. So I think of the “recoil” as affecting the pellet, before it leaves the muzzle, as fighting in all directions. There’s definitely a jump, but it feels different than the recoil of a firearm. I know that Vince, B.B., and others can explain this MUCH better than me.
Victor
Hi Victor. You’re probably right that what is happening is on such a smaller time scale that it’s hard to figure out what is happening from our perceptions. I’m always amazed that you can look directly at a 1911 or an M1 Garand and barely detect the bolt moving when fired because it happens so fast. When I shoot a springer, I don’t feel the same backwards push of a firearm. It jumps around in a way that is hard to characterize. Perhaps the gun pushes back, then slams forward, then in reaction jumps back before we even perceive anything, and our senses just average all this out.
Matt61
“Is it true that the term “deadline” used for due dates is derived from a line that prisoners cannot cross without getting shot?” I don’t know, we never had anything like that. Our towers were there to portect staff on the yard, pervent escapes, prevent contraband from being throwen over the fences, and protect prisoners from a deadly force assualt by other prisoners. We also had armed perimeter vehicles on patrol.
OK, AR’s: Reliability of the gun: It’s good if the rifle is maintained properly. They do get hot.
Lethality of the caliber: It works but suffers with FMJ ammo in shorter barrels. Good HP’s
or soft points really improve things. We used Federal HP’s.
Accuracy: It’s very good. My DPMS shoots 1 inch with ammo it likes.
Its a basic M-4 type carbine, no match gun for sure.
The Military issue M-4 Well, I’m not in the Military so I don’t really know about those.
But, 3 inch groups are probably in the ball park for “In the Field”.
Mike
B.B.,
The clean holed groups that you produced with the H&N Finale Match Rifle pellets are what I would have expected, and what I saw with my 300S. Regarding sorting and weighing, have you considered trying the match pellets that come pre-sorted and individually loaded into a foam loading block? You know, the ones that come in a rectangular tin, as opposed to round tin?
Regarding the yellow filter. I never used one of those filters. I used colored shooting glasses. About 85% of the time I used yellow shooting glasses. For official NRA targets, the yellow is suppose to provide a better contrast with the target paper. It also enhances the light under low-light conditions. I used the yellow 100% indoors, and during the early morning phase of outdoor prone tournaments. When it got very bright, I’d switch to something darker. This worked very well for me. But of course, my vision will be different from many others.
Regarding going out to 50 yards (something that I had never considered with mine), there are two main issues:
1. Wind (which you’ve already decided needs to be avoided). A pellet flying as slow as this would be about as susceptible as ping-pong ball. Maybe not so extreme, but certainly bad enough that trying to shoot for groups would be almost pointless.
2. Distance. Precision class 10-meter rifles are shot with wad-cutter pellets exactly like the H&N Finale Match Rifle pellets, but that does not qualify them for distances beyond about 30 yards, right (they’re not aerodynamically designed for such distances)? So why would the best test pellet at 10-meters be of such interest at 50 yards? I would think that a domed pellet would be a better choice. With that, it might have been better to have tested a bunch of domed pellets, and then decided from those which you’d want to take out to 50 yards, wouldn’t it? Just curious.
Victor
Victor
Victor,
I didn’t make it real obvious, I guess, but the upcoming 50-yard test was the reason I tested the two domed pellets. And if one of them had not been good, I would have tested others. It’s definitely domes at 50 yards.
About the pellets in the foam loading block — I don’t have any! I quit buying them years ago when I stopped competing. Nowadays my 10-meter pistol can easily out-shoot me with pellets from a tin, so the loading block pellets are a luxury I don’t need.
I do have a loading block for competition that I always use so I don’t lose track of where I am in the match, though. But I fill it from a tin.
B.B.
B.B.,
Understood. However, regarding the preloaded tins, my understanding is that they were also presorted (for diameter and weight)? I’m not making an issue of this, just asking. If these pellets really were presorted as described, then they may be worth it to a competitor. In fact, that’s what I use to see all the time at the US Internationals, and in fact what I used. Some of the better world class precision class shooters that I knew preferred to have more practice time, than sort pellets.
Victor
Victor,
I have a square plastic box of H&N Finale Match for Pistolen with the felt loading blocks (is that what they’re called?), and they do group better than the round tin of H&N Finale Match Pistol at 10m with my Challenger.
-Chuck
Oh, right about the loading block. I have one of those where you just poor the pellets into the loading block, shake it a bit, and the pellets load themselves into each individual slot! VERY COOL, and worth every penny!
Victor,
I still have a few hundred of an original 5,000 in the blocks that I bought with my Diana 10. They are nicer pellets, I guess.
B.B.
Victor…50 yds may not be too much of a stretch on a windless day.
I’ve been trying long distance shooting with my Slavia 631 this past summer. Being it is a Canadian spec gun (499fps), long distance is 30m (33yds).
I wasn’t having much success with the 7.0gr Meisterkughlen I was using. On a windless day they would group 10 shots just under an inch…and any wind at all did turn them into your ping-pong ball!
But then I tried the JSB RS, which seem to get many rave reviews in lo-powered guns.
The first day I tried them it was for gun only…the wind was a steady 15mph with gusts to 25.
I was amazed that, trying to shoot between the gusts I was getting groups under an inch…better than the Meisters on a windless day.
On a calm day it will put 10 shots into a dime.
I think with the extra power this gun has, that on a windless day it would do the same at 50yds.
Quigley may have some competition 😉
cowboystar dad,
I’m really not an expert at long range (relatively speaking) airgun shooting, and I’ve never shot a wadcutter pellet past, maybe, 20 yards. Because of what I’ve read, I limit their use to 10 meters. My comment/concern, was based on what I’ve read others say about wadcutters and distances past 30 yards. I’m pretty sure I’ve read here in this blog that wadcutters are like a knuckle ball past, maybe, 35 yards, or so. The flat nose cause them to down at a faster rate, further causing them to lose spin, and thus stability. That’s why I used the ping-pong ball analogy. Of course, “knuckle ball” is probably closer to the actual behavior.
What this all tells me is that I need to get out in the field and test more for myself. I, apparently, have a whole lot to learn!
Victor
Victor…you’ve got to try the JSB RS.
Like you, I was of the opinion that beyond 25 yds a 500fps gun was pretty incapable of accuracy that was anything to write home about.
And the wadcutters (Meisterkhuglen and Hobby’s seemed to prove my point. At 20yds I could hit a pea…at 30yds (with even a 5mph wind) I couldn’t hit an apple (it seemed).
Finally I broke down and tried the JSB’s, and I couldn’t believe the difference.
cowboystar dad,
My experience with JSB’s has been very positive, especially the JSB Match Diabolo, Jumbo Heavy pellets in .22 caliber. Thanks for the recommendation! Had I not already known how good that brand is, I might not have otherwise known.
Victor
Interesting about the Hobbys. They did poorly in my Challenger, also, where the heavier pellets did better.
-Chuck
Actually the windy day was for fun…not gun!!
Pyramydair was out of the JSBs in the red tin (.22 cal) a few weeks ago, and thank goodness. I tried the RSs for the first time. Man did my 392 like them.
BB,
If I wanted to buy a spring piston rifle from PA that is the equivalent of – I don’t mean close, I mean equivalent or better than – the 300S what would it be? Is there a spring piston made today that would match this accuracy you show today or would I have to buy a PCP? And if either exist, spring or PCP, what would be the best one to start with in each of the two categories?
-Chuck
Chuck,
There is no spring piston airgun made today that is equivalent to the FWB 300S.
But why do you have to buy a new gun? Why not just buy a 300S and have exactly what you want? A nice one that has recently been overhauled shouldn’t cost over $600-650 — and I’m talking about an excellent rifle. The one that is in this report cost me $600 and although it isn’t excellent, it was just gone through and brought back to spec before I bought it.
If you are only concerned with accuracy, a Crosman Challenger PCP or an AirForce Edge will probably fill the bill.
B.B.
What’s also worth looking at is one of the single stroke pneumatics that ruled the ranges right after the 300’s, such as the Feinwerkbau 600, 601, or 602, or any of the Hammerli, Walther, etc offerings of that type. For years, even in those heavy shooting jackets, everyone worked that long lever for each shot. 5-foot-nothin’ gals had a way of holding the lever end and sort of letting the rifle drop (they’re fairly heavy guns) to work the lever, to compensate for short arms and relatively weak shoulders.
Now everyone has PCP’s and pumping at the firing line is out. The result is some BRILLIANT guns out there for as little or less, than a nice 300S.
There’s also a smattering of CO2 rifles that came out between the 300S and the PCP guns (I have one, an FWB C62, but there was also a C60 and C61, differing mostly in the sights), and these also go for a song by comparison with a new FWB P700 in a wood stock. And they don’t shoot any worse at all.
-pete
For some reason, in rifles, CO2 never caught on the way it did in pistols. With a pistol, you need a long lever on there in a single-stroke pneumatic, and you still get so-so velocity. But with rifles, for some reason the CO2 guns just didn’t do well in matches so people didn’t use ’em so …. they never showed well in matches….
Chuck,
Best question, bar none, asked about a springer I’ve ever read.
kevin
Duskwight, can you tell who these people are and what they’re doing from this clip?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnNmQW8LInA&feature=g-vrec&context=G2955114RVAAAAAAAABA
Since they don’t seem to be affiliated with Systema, but their stuff looks similar (and they’re dressed in camo), I’m wondering if we’re seeing more of the indigenous Russian martial arts style.
Matt61
Matt,
It seems they are using some sort of derivative from Systema. They call it “Strela” (arrow). Judging from a brief reading on that – it has some elements of streetfighting in it anf is overall “hard” style. Well, anyone can design their own style and give it a loud name. I prefer Kalashnikov system 😉
duskwight
“I prefer Kalashnikov system ” Copy that. I was doing a little work on one today.
Mike
Haha I love this thread!
I’m learning to play the cornet under the Claude Gordon system, and wow, if the Shaolin monks had done trumpet-playing, this is the system they’d use, whew! It really needs a more “macho” name.
Matt61,
I see a strong resemblance in this style to Okinawan Karate. The blocks are similar, but abbreviated versions of the middle-outward-block, and are a very common form of deflection. The orchestrated two-person drills are very similar to what are called Ipon-Kumite, and Taiwazi (sp?). In Karate, they are effectively a Kata, but done full-force with an opponent. Your opponent intentionally attacks you, FULL-FORCE, with a series of strikes (punches, kicks, etc.), and you either block and counter, or get hurt. Of course, your opponent must also block the counter strikes. There’s very little here, if anything, that is unique, or new to the world of martial arts. It’s just a bit less formal. One should be careful about too much informality, because that takes a bit away from the element of discipline. Most masters agree that Kata is the way to perfected Kumite. There are no shortcuts to this perfection.
Victor
B.B.
You may have mentioned this before, but I don’t remember….
What is a good velocity variation (percent) to get with a springer..? E.S./M.V. .
I am still scrounging bits of information.
twotalon
TT,
Velocity doesn’t seem to matter. A total spread of less than 20 f.p.s. is very good. That’s when I know a gun is performing well. If it gets down to under 10 f.p.s., that’s phenomenal. I have had people tell me they had springers that varied by less than 5 f.p.s., but when I tested them they are always greater than 10. So maybe this is like a tight three-shot group.
B.B.
B.B.
Is this like shooting a target as many times as you have to in order to get three shots close together ?
If I can learn how to use the edit function on my chrono, I can really improve the velocity spreads.
When I do a chrono string, it’s nearly always 10 shots. If the first three or four are really wild and the rifle is throwing a fit, I will quit right there with that kind of pellet.
twotalon
TT,
I’ve found sometimes that a rifle will settle down, after throwing even 10 or 15 shots wild, so unless the powerplant is telling you that the gun is misbehaving, it might be worth it to hang in there longer to see what’s up.
This is especially true when you first start shooting the gun. Some spring guns need many shots to warm up. That can be indicative of their needing an overhaul, but I’ve seen it with some guns that were in good shape, too.
B./B.
B.B.
As long as the rifle is not going nuts, I will watch the whole string for such things as velocity tightening, velocity running up or down, velocity running higher or lower in the middle of the string.
I also run strings with what looks like the best pellet from a cold start to see how it looks after sitting overnight or longer.
twotalon
I just tried to check the pellet heads’ in my Challenger for rifling marks and/or damage caused by insertion to see if I could find why Hobbys aren’t working very well. I think it was a failure that proved nothing.
I tested the Baracudas that shoot the best, H&N Finale Match Pistol that are one of the second best, and the Hobby which is the worst.
I could not get the Baracuda nor the H&N to come back out without significant force, which damaged the pellets greatly, especially the skirts. I’m pretty sure the skirts were catching on the xfer port as they backed out. Any insertion damage would be masked by the removal damage, or at least suspect. Now, I fear there is a chance pellet shavings could have gotten pushed into the xfer port. No proof – just fear. I dry fired a couple time and didn’t see anything unusual. Another fear is that the force needed to remove the pellet could have caused collateral damage to the crown. Again, only fear at this time.
One tell-tale difference with the Hobby is that they were very easy to remove. I tried two and both came out with very little effort – almost none. They had light rifling marks on only one side of the head. I can’t tell if they were caused by insertion or removal. I suspect removal because of what I saw on the more difficult ones to remove. Their head edges on the opposite side of the tail damage were worn smooth with no rifling marks. It’s as if the tails dipped into the xfer port causing the pellet to go crooked, putting more pressure on the head on the side where the grooves appeared.
Beam me up Scotty!
-Chuck
Chuck
You did learn one thing….. that that did not work.
Short of pulling the barrel, giving it a good cleaning, and polishing the breech end I don’t know what else you can do.
I know that the Finale Match (both rifle and pistol) come in different sizes. It might make a difference. The Hobbys only come one way, so they will either work or they won’t no matter what else.
twotalon
Chuck
I don’t think you ever said just how bad it was shooting. Keep in mind that domed pellets shoot smaller looking holes than wadcutters.
There is something else…
I have heard that guys have had trouble with Discos with contact between the thing on the end of the barrel and the air tube. That might be something to look at too.
twotalon
Chuck,
I’ve not shot a Challenger, but I would have thought that H&N Rifle pellets are the way to go? In other words, slightly heavier pellets are better than light.
Victor
twotalon,
With Hobbys I’m shooting 1/4″ groups and that isn’t good enough.
-Chuck
Chuck
That’s loose for sure. How good are the best of the wadcutters ? You can’t always shoot the cheapest and still get the best results.
twotalon
The RWS Diabolo Basics are always worth a try for a low cost option, and even the Crosman Copperhead Wadcutters do amazingly well sometimes at 10 yards IF the rifle likes them. I’ve never had any luck with Hobby’s, although they are fun in my 36-2 — they make a movie-UFO sound effect as they speed toward the target, sideways judging by the hourglass shape they punch out of it.
BG_F
Sure you are not talking about Crow Magnums ? Or is it Crow Keyholers ?
twotalon
TT,
Never tried them, but they would have to go a ways to top the Hobby sound and light show. I’ve thought that the Hobby would probably do a number on small game out of that rifle, if I could hit anything with them. Any animals under a pound with an 18-inch vital zone:) ?
Zombie roadkill?
Now we are talking SyFy movie or possibly even mini-series. Some English as a second language actors/actresses, a time-share cabin in the mountains near a good-sized but not too busy road, and a few mean-looking clunk airguns, and it might be the hit of the year. Let me stress that I spend way more time than I would like to admit watching that channel, so I have a good feel for what the viewer “expects”– I think TwoTalon may be an aficionado also, so we can consult on it! Now that BB is back in leading man shape for TV work, maybe he can pitch it!
“Night of the Pancaked Predators”
Or… “Night of the Predator Pancakes” ?
BG_F
I can think of part of a script already…
Using some ideas from “Return of the Living Dead”, “Cabin Fever”, and “Splinter”. Maybe some ideas mixed in from some of the YouTube videos.
Of course , the standard stuff is a given…..
Dumb punks, everyone is an idiot , a horse’s butt, doper, indulging in sex, indulging in drinking, and they all must die. Plenty of scary creature effects. Lots of gore. Vehicle won’t start. Guns jam at critical moment. Vehicle finally starts, but they wreck it in an attempt to get away.
I could get creative with this.
twotalon
Greetings B.B.,
I just had a bit of good luck come my way. I inherited a Colt 1911 A1 Government Nickel. I have dreamed about this gun for years, only to find now that there was one hiding in the family all this time.
The gun was put away for a long, long time. No one is sure, but it could be six, seven, eight or even more years. It looks to me as if nothing was done at the time to get it ready for storage as it is now basically dry. And, it is really dirty. Whatever lube was on it became dirty during that time and left everything coated in dust or dirt. Even the springs look dirty. I am planning to replace the seals, but my question has more to do with cleaning first and then lubrication and metal treatment after that.
If this were a car part, it would go right in the cleaning solution, soak for a while, and get scrubbed clean. Should I soak the gun parts in something too? If so, what would you recommend that I use to soak it to make sure that I get all the accumulated dirt and grime out of it? I can see scrubbing with a small kids toothbrush. Do you have a favorite concoction for that job?
Once it is clean, is there anything I should do beyond normal lube to get some oil or whatever back into the surface of the metal again?
Thanks very much. This is a great source of usable knowledge and I appreciate your sharing with us.
NRS
Pardon? Are you describing an actual .45ACP gun, or a pellet firing simile of the 1911?
I don’t recall ever seeing “seals” in parts diagrams for a 1911 (nor any of my S&W, Walther, or Ruger firearms).
Not an expert, but if the unit fell into my hands, I’d probably take the grip panels off, spray it down with lots of BreakFree CLP/RemOil/even WD-40 to get as much of the loose stuff off. THEN field strip and repeat… Maybe try Hoppes #9 powder solvent on the hard spots.
BreakFree CLP on assembly (NOT WD-40 — WD-40 is not a lubricant, it is a protective barrier for non-moving surfaces: “Water Displacement – 40th formulation”; unlike BreakFree CLP [though they may have dropped the CLP — Cleans/Lubes/Protects from the name]) to sink into the narrow spaces (extractor slot, firing pin, safeties). Not enough to drip off, just a quick pass — maybe hand operate the moving parts and a second pass. Then whatever your favorite gun oil is for a wipe over the rest of the metal (or a silicone coated gun cloth). You don’t want it so coated that it attracts all the dust you just got rid of. Since it’s nickel plated, the exterior shouldn’t need too much — not like blued surfaces.
“replace the seals”… sounds like it has to be the CO2 Umarex gun.
Well, much of my information would likely remain the same… drop the Hoppes #9, maybe use an airgun spring oil on the moving parts, and Pellgunoil on the air passages.
{one flaw, in my mind, to the Pyramyd listings — too many look-alikes are listed by the licensed name and NOT the actual maker/importer… My first CP99 came with Crosman labels, and the replacement is Umarex — but to find it in the catalog, look under Walther}
Sorry for the confusion guys …
The gun definitely is the Umarex CO2 M1911A1 Government Nickel, with the black grips.
Wulfraed, I had just been viewing the Pyramyd page for this gun before I wrote the note. They don’t mention Umarex anywhere. In fact, in one place, they call it the “M1911A1 by Colt”. I guess that they just assume that anyone will know it is not a firearm since its on their website. I fell into the same trap.
Thanks for the advice .. I will give it a go.
NRS
NRS,
The pistol is made by Umarex under license from Colt/ But it is vastly different than a firearm and is not made of the same materials. So DO NOT clean it with the same cleaning solutions you would use on firearms! Your pistol is made from zinc, the so-called diecast metal, and all the metal parts are very soft.
Birchwood Casey makes a synthetic gun scrubber that will be safe and not harm the seals. But the best thing you can do is to charge the gun and leave it charged and only clean the parts you can access without disassembly.
Be sure to use several drops of Crosman Pellgunoil on the tip of the CO2 cartridge when you pierce it, and from now on, always use a drop on each new cartridge. That keeps the gun sealed and fresh on the inside.
Leave the barrel alone. Just shoot the gun clean. After a few hundred rounds everything should be back as it was.
B.B.
I’d like to use your target picture with the dime on my website, theconjurerseries.com, which is going to go live this week. It’s about a book I wrote, about a boy who learns self-control by learning to shoot an air rifle, The Conjurer. I give B. B. Pelletier the credit, but if you want me to take it down, I certainly will. Great picture! Thank you!
E.V. MacQuint,
Everything on Airgun Academy is the property of PyramydAir.com. They must give permission before anything is used elsewhere. Email me (edith@pyramydair.com) so we can discuss this offline.
Thanks,
Edith
We have removed the photograph.
A little late to the party on this one, but I can suggest a reason the RT model had the loading port moved to the right. Typically, RT is shot with a scope. If you have ever tried shooting a regular 300s with a scope, it can be done, but it is a challenge, since the objective bell position is almost over the port. This means that you have to hold the pellet between your thumb and forefinger, with thumb on the left side and forefinger in the right side, work it under the scope and then move it forward into the barrel. I’m not describing it well, but once you try it, you’ll see what I’m trying to say. I would LOVE to have the RT port on my Tyrolean, since I usually shoot it scoped.