by B.B. Pelletier
AirForce Talon SS is a whole shooting system.
Today, we’ll take our first look at the accuracy of the AirForce Talon SS precharged pneumatic air rifle. Since I just returned from the NRA Annual Meetings and heard from a lot of owners what they think about this airgun, let me tell you what they all said. Many of them said they’ve never seen a more accurate airgun. Some do own other precharged air rifles, but admit that the Talon SS is equal in accuracy to the best of them.
A few years ago, I used to hear some criticism about the Talon SS trigger since it isn’t adjustable, but I guess people are shooting it more these days, because everyone I talked to at the NRA Show loves their trigger. They all confirmed that the trigger and safety both get lighter, smoother and easier to use as the rifle breaks in. One man was awed that his rifle had held air without leaking for seven months. Then, I told him about the prototype rifle I once found in the factory when I worked there. It was tucked under a work table and was covered with dust. It was still holding a charge after more than five years! So, they do hold their air indefinitely.
Many perspective buyers came up to me knowing a lot about the gun already, yet this was the first time they’d actually seen one. And a great many of them went to the airgun range and shot the Talon SS that was available to the public. After that, some of them came down to the Pyramyd AIR booth and insisted on writing an order on the spot. If there had been working guns to sell, I estimate we could have sold quite a few during the show. And .22 caliber was the overwhelming choice of all buyers.
Scope
I used an obsolete Leapers Accushot 4-12×44 Mini SWAT mil-dot scope (without illuminated reticle) on the rifle. I mounted it in two-piece Leapers 30mm medium-height rings. Most shooters feel they need higher rings than I use because they don’t hold their rifles the same way I do. I get by with much lower rings because of this hold, so you may need more height than I do. Consider that when you buy one of these rifles.
I normally recommend an AirForce 4-16×50 scope for this rifle. It helps with the longer distances. But both of my AirForce scopes are on other airguns that are also being tested, so I had to use something different this time.
Sight-in
As I mentioned in the last report I had to install the factory 12-inch Lother Walther barrel that comes standard for this test, because I keep an optional 24-inch barrel in my SS at all other times. The benefit of almost doubling the power with the same amount of air is too good to pass up. I didn’t show the barrel changing process, but I will show it when I switch over to the 24-inch barrel in the next report.
So, the new barrel is in the gun and how many shots did it take to sight in? How about two? That’s correct. After two shots, all pellets were landing where I intended. This was not in the center of the bullseye, as I didn’t want to destroy the aim point.
Accuracy
As I mentioned in Part 2, there’s just one pellet for this rifle — the JSB Exact 15.9-grain dome. It’s true that the 14.3-grain Crosman Premier was once the most accurate pellet for the rifle; but as I mentioned, this particular JSB has replaced it in my rifle.
There were already 35 shots on the tank from the velocity test and two from the sight-in, but I dialed the power setting to 6 and proceeded to shoot a 10-shot group at 25 yards that measured 0.296 inches between centers. Getting 47 accurate shots on a single fill is pretty darned good.
Not too shabby for 10 shots at 25 yards! Group of 10 JSB Exact 15.9-grain pellets measures 0.296 inches between centers. Notice how round it is.
Then, I filled the tank and shot the next group on power setting 10. Same pellet, just going faster. And naturally because I said in the last report that power setting 10 was the most accurate, this time it chose not to be. A single pellet turned a 0.33-inch group into one that measures 0.394 inches between centers. Again, the group is fairly round, telling me that the gun has no hangups and is performing up to snuff.
On power setting 10, ten JSB pellets went into this group that measures 0.394 inches at 25 yards.
I mentioned earlier that I used to shoot 3/8-inch test groups at 23 yards when I set up a new rifle for an AirForce customer or when I tested a customer’s rifle after repairs, but that was always a 5-shot group. Three-eighth’s of an inch is 0.375 inches, so I’m actually getting 10 shots into about the same size group as I used to get 5. I guess what that says is that you have to move back farther to really test an air rifle this accurate.
What’s next?
If this was the final report on the SS, I would go into some other things…but there’s more to come. So, that’ll be it for today.
I’ve already been asked by one reader to test the CO2 adapter on the gun. As long as I’m doing that, I think I’ll ask AirForce if I can borrow a Micro Meter tank and test that for you, as well. Next up will be the gun with the 24-inch optional barrel, which is the way I keep my SS set up. It effectively doubles the gun’s power and makes a rifle that I believe to be the most flexible in the PCP world.
I love my Condor & my Talon too. versatile,reliable, accurate,compact when broke down,and no signs of wear after several years! They can do it all & made in good ol’ USA!
This really is the ultimate air rifle for me. In a few minutes you can go from mild little .177 backyard plinker to powerful .25 game hunter and beyond. The only complaint I have ever heard about these things is the ergonomics and that can be worked around.
I reckon this will be my air rifle of the year. Anybody want to buy some big boy toys?
How do the accuracy, trigger, and +/- 10 psi shot count compare to the Marauder? And is there a butt plate that will allow it to be held in the shoulder pocket rather than on top of the collar bone?
Thanks.
Johng10,,
John,
I have reported the velocity and accuracy. You can compare them yourself to all the Marauder reports you find on the internet.
I don’t know what you mean by the +/- 10 psi shot count.
No, the shoulder hold has to be done as I show it to not have to elevate the scope high.
B.B.
BB,
I’m on my second cup of coffee but the last line of your comment doesn’t make sense to me.
Johng10, there is a cottage operation named Talon Tune and they do make stocks for the Talon that makes this rifle look even more attractive, to my eye. You’ll have to do a search for the URL as I don’t have it memorized. If I ever pull the trigger on buying this rifle, I would be in the market for one of those stocks, as well.
As the saying goes, the only interesting rifles are the accurate ones and this one has it in Spades!
Fred DPRoNJ
BB, I got it – the word “top” should be “to”. Finished the second cup of coffee.
Fred DPRoNJ
Morning B.B.,
I’m with you. Without a doubt the Talon SS is the most flexible air gun in the PCP world.You talked me into buying one in 2008 However, I’m still waiting for my safety to lighten up some more. I’d like it a bit lighter for the front of my old tender trigger finger.
What’s not to like: a Very interesting air rifle: running CO2 with the 12″ barrel at about 600 fps up to a 24″ barrel running air about 900 fps. Being a single shot is not a negative for me. A phone call to Van at AirHog will give you a gun that makes a mouse fart seem loud.
RidgeRunner, let us know when you pull the trigger on one.
Bruce
Well darn it. Just wrote a comment, answered the math question correctly, I think, hit submit and sent it into the black hole of cyber space.I’ll try again.
Morning B.B.,
What’s not to like about the Talon SS. It’s a Very interesting rifle: running CO2 at about 600 fps with the 12″ barrel up to 900 fps running air with the 24″ barrel. It was back in 2008 when you recommened that rifle to me–thanks again.
The rail on the top and bottom allow for attaching all sorts of stuff. If you want or need quiet a phone call to Van at AirHog will hanle that both the 12 and 24 inch barrels.
The only complaint is that for my poor old tender trigger finger the safety is a little bit too hard to release.
RidgeRunner, let us know when you pull the trigger on one.
Bruce
I removed the safties from both of my Talons. Don’t get sore fingers anymore.
twotalon
TT, that sounds like a good workaround. I think the ideal would be if the safety were not automatic.
B.B., is there an interesting back-story on why the AirForce guns have automatic safeties? Is the design decision philosophical, technical, or perhaps litigious?
-Jan
Jan,
I don’t know for sure, but I bet it has to do with liability and the cost of insurance.
B.B.
Morning Edith,
I’ve tried to submit a post twice this morning and both of them have gone into a black hole some place. I know I haven’t been a regular contributor for too long now, but really now….Perhaps there is a glitch someplace???
Bruce
That’s Ediths way of getting even if you don’t post often enough.
twotalon
Could be cause post 3 didn’t make either. Is there a time out on starting and finisahing a post?
Bruce
Beats me. Maybe I will start a post and wait 5 minutes to see.
twotalon
Test post.
That was 5 minutes between start and finish without pushing a key. Sumitting at six.
twotalon
twotalon,
Looks like you’re right.
Bruce
Go figure, I’ll try again after I refill my coffee cup.
Good Morning B.B.,
I’m with you. The Talon SS with the optional 24″ barrel is the most flexible air rifle in production. It’s a VERY interesting gun that running on CO2 gives about 600 fps from the 12″ barrel while running the 24″ barrel on air gives about 900 fps.
Thanks again for recommending it to me back in 2008. It’s my go to small hole maker and Zombie killer.
If someone needs or wants quiet, a call to Van at AirHog will certainly accomplish that. I’ve found that the correct size of a piece of flexible plastic hose silt length wise and placed around the barrel between the bushings deadens a lot of the ping from the hammer hitting the valve. The tubing has to be big enough to touch the side of frame.
RidgeRunner, please let us know when you pull the trigger on yours. You will not regret the purchase.
Bruce
Bruce I’m getting all comments sent to my inbox too and saw each one you posted.
I think you could try reposting it without the name of the re-seller that can lower the report of you rifle.
If I was PyramydAir I don’t think I would like other stores name posted on my blog either.
J-F
J-F,
That was a good thought, but no go. However, we’ve talked about Van and bloop tubes in the past without a problem, cause PA doesn’t carry that particular item.
Bruce
I doubt it’s you because your ither posts are coming in, there must be something in that post that tickles the spam filter. I don’t know… Maybe you could try to reword it?
I remember when I was a mod on a poker site we could say “he’ll be right back” to the spam filter he’ll was the same as hell and we didn’t authorise anything that was close to blasphemy.
J-F
Everyone,
If your posts had words or links that violated the blog rules, they would have gone to the spam folder. There’s nothing in that folder. It’s the first thing I check every morning & it was empty today.
If you make a comment & it doesn’t get posted, please email me right after you noticed that it didn’t appear: edith@pyramydair.com. I check my emails regularly — day & night.
Thanks,
Edith
This question was sent to the wrong address, so I posted it here for the sendewr.
Actually this is an inquiry about something I found while cleaning out my late Father’s office. I found a Daisy Quick Skill Shooting Kit Model 2299, only the BB’s are missing. I have been unable to find out much about this. Do you have any idea of a significance or value?
Thank you in advance for any help or information
Kathryn
Kathryn,
I have been trying to sell the same shooting kit at airgun shows for several years. It finally sold last year when I put the price at $50.
The set should acutally be worth about $75-100 in a retail situation.
B.B.
New comment on your post #9227 “AirForce Talon SS precharged pneumatic air rifle: Part 3″
Comment:
Well darn it. Just wrote a comment, answered the math question correctly, I think, hit submit and sent it into the black hole of cyber space.I’ll try again.
Morning B.B.,
What’s not to like about the Talon SS. It’s a Very interesting rifle: running CO2 at about 600 fps with the 12″ barrel up to 900 fps running air with the 24” barrel. It was back in 2008 when you recommened that rifle to me–thanks again.
The rail on the top and bottom allow for attaching all sorts of stuff. If you want or need quiet a phone call to Van at AirHog will hanle that both the 12 and 24 inch barrels.
The only complaint is that for my poor old tender trigger finger the safety is a little bit too hard to release.
RidgeRunner, let us know when you pull the trigger on one.
Bruce
Edith,
I just checked my e mail and found my posts there and copied this from my e-mail account so the posts are getting into the system but not showing up here.
Bruce
Mr. B.,
Your posts seem to be making it online now. I see nothing in the spam folder, so I’m unsure what happened to the ones that didn’t make it. While it may be the blog software, it could also be your ISP has hit a bump in the road. Stuff happens, and I often don’t know why.
Edith
Edith,
I found those posts in the spam folder. I approved them.
B.B.
Edith and B.B.,
Thank you both and yes it sure could also be with my ISP since it starts with a note in a capsule attached to a pigeon’s leg that might not have made it past twotalon’s yard.
Bruce
It might have been going by possum express. I wacked one this morning.
Overnight surveillance spotted a coon that was around right after I went to bed. His days are numbered too.
twotalon
J-F,
I
Morning B.B.,
What’s not to like about the Talon SS. It’s a Very interesting rifle: running CO2 at about 600 fps with the 12″ barrel up to 900 fps running air with the 24″ barrel. It was back in 2008 when you recommened that rifle to me–thanks again.
The rail on the top and bottom allow for attaching all sorts of stuff. If you want or need quiet for either or both barrels that can be done also.
The only complaint is that for my poor old tender trigger finger the safety is a little bit too hard to release.
RidgeRunner, let us know when you pull the trigger on one.
Bruce
J-F Ihope you are right and I’ll try that now.
Very nice. One of the best for sure. I probably won’t get one because of all the “gear” needed for PCP. But, if I ever do decide to get into PCP guns it would be on the short list. For my first one I would lean towards a repeater though.
Mike
Bruce,
Call me late to the blog this morning, but I see 5 of your posts nearly identical. Cyber harassment, maybe? quit banging the keys, be nice to the machine… 🙂
BB, I believe this is the gun that I was meant to have. It meets all the criteria for several purposes, except the repeater part, which is really not that important to me any more. I probably have spent close to the cost of a TalonSS over the last couple years on mods with non TalonSS pieces. I will have to pony up sometime and get one. It will be interesting to see how the barrel changes are done.
ka/DRoK
I clicked on the photo of the TalonSS and then the link for the video. Definitely one of Paul’s best, funny stuff!
ka/DRoK.
Mr.B,I’m right there with you,but only one of two AF guns has never gotten a lighter safety…..ironically it is my Condor(the first & therefore oldest and most shot.I bought a used Talon and it’s safety is much easier to disengage! The Condor cannot be disengaged w/ the back of the trigger finger at all. I think I may take TT’s advice……as I can easily decock it due to it’s design.
Frank…
Look 2 posts down. I put it in the wrong place.
twotalon
Surely not more accurate than the Marauder. I can imagine that the Talon SS has very high intrinsic accuracy, but I can’t believe that the ergonomics with all those unusual shapes are in its favor.
Just returned from a trip to Houston Texas where I was swimming in a pool on the 24th floor and lying out on their terrace. As the Gilbert and Sullivan line says,
“When a felon’s not engaged in his employment
…
He loves to lie a-basking in the sun.”
The barbecue was also outstanding. I came away very favorably impressed with Texas.
Shaky, did you say that it is easier to ride a motorcycle at right angles over a pipe instead of at an angle? Maybe for a loose pipe that is true. But surely for a speed bump, you have a smoother ride going diagonally. The way to calculate this mathematically is with a quantity called curvature which describes the amount of bending in space. It’s the idea of slope (rise over run) applied to three dimensions. The answer is enormously complicated. I couldn’t fit it all on one page. But it is essentially as you said. But now for the airgun connection…. A good approximation to the travel path is with a helix which is what we used to analyze the rifling angle. So when you are traveling diagonally over a speed bump you are experiencing the dynamics of the pellet. The very small rifling angle of 4 degrees is related to the easier ride you get at a similar angle as opposed to the maximum of 90 degrees. Second shooting connection: The formula describing the actual motion is very complicated and took me a few hours. But while riding, your brain calculates all this in a flash. The only explanation is that the Jaws of the Subconscious are exerting themselves in this context. 🙂
Matt61
Standard MSF training for encountering obstacles (and your speed bump counts, as do railroad crossings) is to steer such that one is perpendicular to the line of the obstacle — then accelerate as the front wheel reaches it (to unload the front end of the motorcycle), then decelerate on the other side to unload the rear suspension.
I’ve hit a few speed bumps at angles, and at anything more than walking speed, the effect is very uncomfortable as the bump is hitting the /side/ of the tire — ie, the position one would be in during a curve — along with compressing the suspension. So suddenly the machine front end thinks it is steering into the bump and the direction of steer changes coming down the other side… OR, if the obstacle is high enough, the tire slips sideways when it can’t get over it — again something you don’t want to do…
On a bicycle with no suspension, hitting at an angle might be okay… (just don’t drop the wheel into the railroad groove). Add a suspension and things just don’t work as well.
http://www.motorcyclegiftshop.com/obstacles.html
Back to basics: [] + 1 = 2
Hi there Matt …
You probably do have a good mathematical explanation for riding a motorcycle over a pipe at an angle, but … as a former motorcycle dealer, Motorcycle Safety Foundation Instructor, United Sidecar Association State Director, over 56 years of motorcycle riding, and state motorcycle driver’s license examiner to boot, my experience tells me that it is not a good idea to do that. At right angles, the risk that the tire will slide along the wall of the pipe (the object, what ever it is) is minimized. Once the front wheel looses traction it is pretty much an uncorrectable situation and the result is an instant “Oh-oh”.
Hitting a pipe at an angle, even more so railroad tracks, drainage grates, expanded metal devices used on some bridges that provide a four wheeled vehicle an easier path are extremely dangerous for vehicles with only two wheels. Add in a little rain, or fog or even early morning dew and for sure the driver wants to contact anything straight on. Something as non-threatening as an expanding tar strip, or anything where the front wheel has a chance to begin to slide out, takes control of the motorcycle away from the driver and right away makes him a passenger. We have always tried to discourage that.
The MSF teaches motorcycle drivers to take an obstacle straight on, and if it looks like the bike will take a solid jarring, the driver is to lift his weight off the seat by standing or squating over the bike on the foot pegs. The bike suspension then works, the motorcycle takes most of the shock and the driver takes up the rest by flexing his knees. It is the same technique where motocross riders stand on the footpegs of their bikes when the surface isn’t flat. It is a good technique and it really works.
I just went back and reread your comment and I noticed that you said “smoother ride” by going diagonally. I think I just might have to yield on that point. I think you are right. Something tells me that, yes, it would be smoother. But … in a situation like this, I would rather slow down, take the bump and be safe, than have it smoother and take even a tiny risk of going down. Also, if I agreed with you right away, I would waste a perfectly good, not quite well written and semi-literate rant. :{)
NRS
Frank
It’s not quite as easy as it sounds.
Just removing the balk, two springs, and the rod will probably leave you with a problem….won’t cock.
Most will move the hammer sear spring into the foreward hole to give it more leverage on the sear.
This causes the sear to drag harder on the hammer.
I made dummy safety balks without the safety catch notch for the sear. That way the balk still applies the rearward pressure on the sear when cocking.
The hammer sear has to move foreward and backward during the cocking cycle to hook up right with the first sear.
twotalon
Thanks…..I seem to recall in a fit of ambition I tried just removing it,so I get exactly why the work-around is necessary.I do tinker,but am NOT the type who can confidently dive into the inner workings of trigger groups.Probably a VERY good thing! The only trigger I ever modified was on a 392…..easy peasy stuff.
I love these condor rifles. I have a friend that grumbles about the cost of gearing one of these things up. He doesn’t seem to get the idea these are actually multiple guns in one package. I find it strange that he complains about the cost then buys parted out anshutz rifles and spends more finding pieces to put it back together than I do simply swapping barrels to achieve different goals.
John,
Yeah, I see a lot of that. The complainers are the ones who spend thousands getting a single-purpose rifle to do what they want, when they can modify an AirForce rifle themselves for a lot less.
The ergonomics are one issue that we have to take seriously. Some shooters cannot adapt to these black rifles. But those who can are in for a world of flexibility and accuracy at a budget price.
B.B.
Handy tip – (someone else on this blog had this idea first) for standard Talon SS CO2 tanks take two beer cozys cut the bottom out of one of them and slip the bottomless one on first, then the one with the bottom. The reason becomes more and more obvious as your cheek weld approaches 0C (32F) degrees. Also, the air tank comes with a shoulder piece as shown in the photo but the standard CO2 tank does not, and it is a fatter bottle, fatter than even the standard air bottle. I have not found a cost effective way to remedy the shoulder piece issue for CO2.
-Chuck
I forgot to mention the temperature drop of the CO2 bottle is not from outside air temp but from actual shooting of CO2. That bottle gets uncomfortably cold.
-Chuck
chuck,
How soon people forget.
Bruce
BB, I’m interested in a full accessory list and fee schedule for the Talon ss and the Condor ;especially including optional barrels.Does P.A. sell the other barrels or do customers have to get them from Air Force directly? I didn’t find them on the accessory link.Can a quieter SS barrel be fitted to the Condor?I must be able to shoot more quietly when I shoot at home.Thank You Too Much-Tin Can Man-
Tin Can Man,
PA carries the accessories that you’re interested in. Look under the heading navigation and click on by brand and then click on AirForce. There is where you’ll find what you’re looking for.
Bruce
Tin Can Man,
Pyramyd AIR carries everything that AirForce makes. See it here:
/air-guns/rifles/pcp-rifles/AirForce/brands_12
here
/a/Air_guns/Air_Pistols/Precharged_pneumatic/167/AirForce/brands_12
and here
/accessories
B.B.
BB,Thank You.Also,Thank You Mr.B. You guys helped me to find what I was looking for.-Tin Can Man-
Tom,
I’ve been a long time follower of your blog and a first time poster. You’re always very informative and enlightening. Please keep up the good work.
I feel compelled to post my experience with the SS.
As a long time owner of Condors, one in 22 and a recent .25, I could never imagine why anybody would choose a Talon SS over the Condor.
There is no such thing as too much power in an air gun, right?
Wellllll……I recently bought a used, early model SS .22 in rough shape, really cheap with the intention to fix it up and sell it for another air gun project. Electrical tape held on the fore stock and the trigger guard. More air passed AROUND the valve stem than went through it and even the power wheel was jacked up.
I ordered all the parts necessary from Airforce, (great service and KUDDOS to Leah at AF by the way) and put this thing back together. Although it’s not a 100 yard + shooter like my Condors this thing is deadly out to 50 plus.
FWIW, I’ve found that a fill of 2100, power wheel setting of 4.11 and a top hat of .110” (all factory parts BTW) gave me this “tale of the (chrony) tape. But it is like you stated in part one; the optimum settings for all rifles are different.
[IMG]http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j321/airgunsoftulsa/83a9a8e8.jpg[/IMG]
I think I’m going to keep it. Power? I’m rethinking that subject.
Dave
Dave,
Welcome to the blog! Glad to have you posting comments.
B.B.
I think you all know I owned a rather expensive setup based on the Talon SS. I think you all know I am way under impressed with this gun. It is extremely difficult to shoot for me. Accuracy is so so. Got at least three rifles beat the tar out of it for accuracy. At least when I shoot them.
DISCLAIMER: BB claims this gun was “Bubbaized”. Not so! Some one did change the factory settings on the top hat. Some thing easily done and easily undone with no harm to the gun. I reset it to factory specs after extensive testing which proved to me that was the best setting for it. Other than this, no changes were made to the gun by anyone.
This rifle has great potential. But as it comes from the factory, it in no way lives up to that potential. If you want to spend hundreds of dollars upgrading it, you can make it from a sows ear to a silk purse. I do not choose to do this. I should not have to do this.
What does it need to be a really top notch gun? A MUCH better safety. An air gauge to know how much air is in the tank. An offset to drop the tank about one inch lower than it currently is. A quick disconnect to charge the tank without removing it from the rifle! A MUCH better grip and stock to make the gun comfortable to shoot. A much better trigger.
What do all these upgrades cost? Well, considering a .177 Talon SS costs about $540 brand new from PA and the offset/gauge/quick fill costs $165 PLUS shipping from Talon tunes and a decent stock with a nice molded grip costs minimum of about $130 Plus shipping from Talon tunes, and $55 for a real nice aftermarket adjustable trigger sear you must install yourself, it looks like you will have about $930 into the gun with NO guarantee of accuracy. So you STILL may need to send it to Tony at Talon tunes and sock ANOTHER $195 into it to get it tuned to shoot accurately.
Because, contrary to what BB/Tom Gaylord would have you believe in this blog, if you search the Internet for unbiased opinions, you will find PLENTY of folks will tell you Air Force QC is BAD!!! You will find plenty of complaints of poor accuracy and difficulties with getting good cheek weld/ eye to scope alignment with the stock gun. And PLENTY of reports of lousy quality control on the tank valves with variation running plus or minus 15% from tank to tank! Plenty of reports of lousy triggers, and even more lousy stiff thumb busting safety reports as well as plenty of complaints about the stock grips and to a lesser extent, even the stock fore arm.
So if you love these guns and want one cheap, keep an eye on the classified/auction sites, because they come up all the time for sale, and usually at fire sale prices!!!
BB invited me to do a blog. After much careful testing, I sold mine. Piece of junk with potential, but I did not want to invest another $400 – $500 or more into my already high entry price into my experience with this gun. So no blog will be done and I thank my lucky stars I did not lose too much money on this thing!
Folks, if you buy one, know this. It is like buying a lottery ticket. You are essentially buying a ticket at a chance to get a nice gun. You have a better chance than you do of winning the lottery, but probably not better than a 20% – 30% chance without putting more of your hard earned money into it.
If you want a REALLY nice pcp gun you can unpack from the factory box and charge with air and start shooting with some assurance you will be extremely happy, buy a Swedish, English, Korean or German pcp OR even a Benjamin Discovery!
If you have plenty of money, don’t mind tinkering or paying some one to upgrade your gun, want the most powerful air gun on the market and/or want to shoot multiple calibers under multiple conditions, and you have tons of money to accomplish this, you can buy a Talon or Condor and turn it into a one of a kind personal gun which is tailored to exactly what you want to do with a gun, even if that is multiple things.
If you want a gun that simply shoots accurately and you can adjust the power to use under varying conditions then go for one of the FX Swedish made guns or the Korean made guns (Sam Yang and Eun Jin) or the English made guns (Daystate and others). Even the German made ones selling under the Beeman and Weihrauch names. Or others like Air Arms, Feinwerkbau, Evanix, Falcon and many more. Read the unbiased reviews on forums rather than the “filtered” (read that as censored) ones on sellers sites.
You might even consider the American made Discovery which is highly customizable and superbly accurate. And it won’t cost you an arm and a leg to make into an extremely nice gun. I bought one used in really nice condition for $175, added an after market multi-shot breech and a Katana stock, did the three screw trigger mod and added a home made power adjuster and have a superbly accurate adjustable power .22 10 shot repeater which delivers between 725 fps and 975 fps with great accuracy even out to 50 yards with standard Crosman Premier Hollow Points in 14.3 grains. My cost for all this is under $500 which is less than what a Talon SS starts at and it is a WAY better gun! And I spent FAR less time doing all this than I did messing with the Air Force trying to get it to shoot accurately. The only thing the AF does better is the quietness. And $85 for a shroud for the Disco would fix that also.
So here you have an unbiased opinion. I bought the AF on the basis mostly of PA reviews, which I now know are “filtered” (i.e. censored). I had high hopes and expectations. I sold the gun after extensive testing having achieved a FEW really good 25 yard groups like BB shows but many many more not near as good. I sold it very disappointed in AF guns. Most likely will never own another.
Most likely will also not post here again. Came excited I had found a great site. Know now that this blog is done by some one who is paid to at least give neutral reviews at worst and there fore can not be in any way considered unbiased.
And BB, for the record, I believe your are extremely biased in favor of Air Force. You rate them way higher than they actually deserve, and simply dismiss all complaints about them to customer error or “Bubba”.
To those of you who have one and love it, kudos. I would in no way take that away from you or demean you because I have an opposite experience.
But I am really sad that SOME AF aficionados make fun of those who have had extremely bad experiences with this brand and these guns and make fun of us and call us “Bubbas” and such and demean and minimize our honest opinions.
I am also extremely unhappy that some one person on here took me to task for saying that the AF gun was an acronym (POS) when such an acronym can mean any thing from “point of service” to “place of service” to “piece of steel” to “plain old shoddy” to “pile of socks” to “plain old stinky” to “putrid old skunk” or any one of a number of combinations of words which start with P-O-S. That is the great thing about acronyms. IF some one accuses you of saying something nasty, the nasty is THEIR mind!!!
New,
How on earth were you able to sell such a piece of crap to anyone? I sure hope you told them all about its shortcommings.
-Chuck
Chuck,
Some people just seem to love POC. I mean after all, to use J-F analogy, tons of people bought VW beatles!
No, seriously, this gun like I said, has tons of POTENTIAL! Some folks just love to buy a gun a “customize” it to make it their own special thing. The AF is great for that.
I used to specialize in buying POC guns or at least what every one said were POC guns like say an AMD hardballer .45 acp stainless or a Dan Wesson stainless Model 15 VH and then working on them to turn them into finely tuned accurate guns and proceed to go and win matches with them. I had one of each which were tuned by me to be as accurate and reliable as any that Clark or any of the high dollar customizers could turn out. The difference is back in the 70’s and 80’s and even into the early 90’s I was much younger and in good health and had a ton of money.
Now I am older, disabled, and have very little discretionary money. I also can’t shoot high recoiling powder burning firearms. So air guns are pretty much my connection to shooting now. When I acquire one, I want it to work and be accurate and be “fuss free”! I do not have the money nor the patience to customize guns any more.
The person who bought it handled it, shot it, and was familiar with AF guns. He had several and wanted another for a “project” and he did not want to pay full price. He knew how much of a pain they could be and he also knew what could result with enough money and time. Go figure!
But let’s be honest here folks. The AF is not a good gun for a beginner. It is a niche gun suitable only for experienced air gunners who don’t mind fiddling with it a lot if necessary and sinking a lot of money into them where necessary. It is an EXTREMELY controversial gun, and has plenty of supporters and detractors. It generates tons of controversy. Maybe more than any other air gun.
You might get a noob who can take one and shoot it accurately. Like BB’s Greg. But that is not the norm. I am FAR from a noob and it is extremely difficult for me to shoot. There are some people shaped such that the gun may fit well from the start. I am not one.
So folks, like I said, if you like yours, great! I already said many times it has potential. But I believe most people don’t buy a gun for it’s potential. And to me a gun which does not realize most of it’s full potential from the factory without major modifications can not be qualified as a “good” gun. That is my opinion.
I am entitled to my opinion. NO amount of argument from supporters of the gun will change my opinion as it is based on a bad experience. My research after purchase uncovered many many others with such bad experiences with the gun. SO many in fact, if I had done the research before hand, I would have never bought it!!
So stop trying to argue with me! I have stated the facts about the gun. Plain and simple. I have been more than fair to it, giving it every chance to perform other than sinking a ton of more money into it which I choose not to do. I see it’s potential. I did not buy it for potential. I bought it to shoot with the expectation that it would do so without any fuss. I bought a used Disco, a used Sumatra, a used Crosman 600, and a used Diana 6 M over the years off the web also with the same expectations. All of them did what was expected with NO fuss and did it EXTREMELY well. I still have them! This AF did not even come close to meeting those expectations. I no longer have it!!! Please don’t try to convince me I am wrong. Please don’t make fun of me. Because frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn!
END OF STORY!
We’re arguing that you’re “stating the facts” when what you’re in fact stating are YOUR facts about a USED rifle that no one knows the conditions of.
I don’t think a gun with so many flaws from the factory as you are stating would still sell so well especially if it’s not accurate. People just don’t buy 500$ rifles that can’t shoot.
If they still sell that well it HAS to have something going for it other than looking pretty.
Did you watch Paul Capello review of the Talon and Condor? He has no problem aiming with the gun or with the trigger or with the safety. He put a bunch of accessories on it but didn’t mod anything.
Not wanting to be rude here but it just looks like you didn’t do your research before buying a rifle that doesn’t fit you and are now blaming it on everyone you can.
Man up, it’s OK to make mistakes, we all do. That rifle wasn’t suited for you and may have been damaged by the previous owner. We get it.
J-F
My complaints re. the Airforce platform are as follows:
Ergonomics are poor, yet they are what they are, and you have no excuse for not being fully aware prior to purchase.
The “safety” plain sucks. In practice it really is quite dangerous as on many specimens it develops the tendency to release the sear when taken off safe. Better and safer to simply remove it from the rifle.
The trigger design is very poor, and as with the safety, it is common for it to give trouble. For example, it often fails to hold the sear, consequently the gun won’t hold cock.
Claims that “permanent dry moly lube” is “all the trigger/sear assy will ever need” are silly fantasy. Any real world rifle is going to periodically need to be cleaned and re-lubed with something like Dri-slide to keep the trigger operational. You’re alternative is to ship it back to Airforce to let them to do the same.
The top hat DEMANDS user adjustment as the tiny set screws (2) will not reliably lock it into place. Once loose, the user must readjust and then retighten, preferably using locktite.
I agree that its flexibility is unmatched. If you like to tinker and fuss over your gun, the platform is great. If you just want an accurate gun to shoot with, look elsewhere.
new2this,
You are the main reason I am taking so long to review the Talon SS, and showing it to the readers in such detail.
I never “claimed” that your gun was Bubba-ized. However, from your remark that your barrel has a half-inch depth at the crown I said that it “sounded like it had been Bubba-ized.” There is a difference between what I claim and my observations based on your remarks. How can I claim anything about a gun I have never seen?
I am showing the readers every point on the gun so they can make up their own minds without yielding to rumor and innuendo. The old Talon Owner’s Group was a snake pit of bitter people who could not stand that an American airgun was as capable as those made in England and Bosnia, so they posed as disgruntled owners, and tried to muddy the waters. I didn’t put up with their remarks, either, and actually shut this blog down for a day to remind everyone of how we conduct ourselves.
I am here for the long run and see every comment, so whenever I encounter something that doesn’t sit right, I will respond. People can voice their opinions all day long, but when someone wants to grind his ax, he will find that I an an unforgiving grindstone.
As for the filtering of customer reviews about guns on this site, I’ll let Edith address that one.
There is no need to send an AirForce gun to anyone to get it fixed, modified or changed in any way. I have repaired so many of these aftermarket “fixes” that I know what can and can’t be done. The gun will do just what I show it doing in these reports, and it will do it every time. But the owner has to participate to make it happen. So your claim of needing to invest more money in these guns to get them to shoot doesn’t hold water. We have plenty of owners on this blog who can back me up on that.
A couple weeks ago I loaned my SS to Greg at LASSO, and he proceeded to amaze himself and everyone who watched, as he made shot after shot at long ranges. After I showed him how to shoot the rifle (because he had never shot a scoped rifle in his life) he adapted to it quickly. No one told him that the Talon SS was difficult to shoot, so for him, it wasn’t. He went home and bought a Condor and has already put 2,000 rounds through it in just a couple weeks.
I would sure like to see your SS. I bet the problems you are having are fundamental and can be identified. But the AirForce company could do the very same thing for you. I know because I used to do it. 95 percent of the time all it took was a good barrel cleaning. The other five percent ranged from people doing destructive things to their guns, aftermarket modifications that didn’t work and a couple people who were just plain crazy.
As for your use of well-known acronyms, either you stop using them or we will ban you from this blog. This is a family-oriented website that parents and kids read together, and everybody knows you do not mean pile of socks.
You will notice that your comments have not been deleted? Nor has anyone shouted you down, like happens on many of the forums. You can tell us about all your bad experiences, as long as you keep the language clean and respectful. But don’t be surprised when you are met with an overwhelming response from folks who haven’t had the same experience.
B.B.
BB,
Stop it please! Just stop it. You are obviously biased beyond reason and belief. And while you may have plenty of READERS who back you up, I can find just as many non-readers of yours who say you are full of it and don’t know what you are talking about.
So please, please, just stop defending AF guns. To quote you “The gun will do just what I show it doing in these reports, and it will do it every time. But the owner has to participate to make it happen.”. This just is not true! Period!
But what you do is rationalize the faults of the AF gun and marginalize those people who have problems as not capable. I mean man just READ that quoted statement. It is the OWNERS fault if the gun does not do what YOU show it doing EVERY time? What’s wrong with that statement?
And BB, that is wrong! And that is why you have lost all credibility with me and a LOT of other respectable and capable air gunners over the years!
First, there is no reason a gun costing this much should not have a pressure gauge. (Or any pcp for that matter) Second, there is no reason it should not have a very good trigger. Third, there is no reason for it to have a lousy pistol grip. Fourth, there is no reason AF could not have done some thing to make it more ergonomic as about 90% of all other manufacturers with rear bottles do. Fifth there is no reason to have interchangeable bottles if they do not shoot to same poi!
And finally, BB, the picture of you in an old blog where you had on no shirt and were showing us how to “properly” hold an Air Force Talon/Condor to shoot it accurately did nothing at all to increase your creditability! I can only assume it was an April Fools joke! It instantly made you a laughing stock on the internet.
I was stupid enough to fall for it and try it as I still at the time thought you might have some creditability and might just be on to something which might help me to salvage the AF Talon. WOW the gun was totally not shoot able using that technique! I could not even SEE the objective of the scope to align it. What a fool I felt like for having believed you!!
With that, you totally lost all creditability with me. As you have with many thousands over the years.
Do your self a favor. STOP defending the AF guns and tell the whole truth about them. They are a niche gun. They are NOT capable of being shot by every one with no modification.Their quality control is at BEST* suspect, but getting better from what I see on the rest of the unbiased internet.
And if you try to tell me Tony at Talon Tunes is one of those who has modified the Talons that you have “repaired so many of these” I will do something I find totally abhorrent! I will call you a F… and a L…!
Wake up man! You do not see this kind of controversy about say a FX Cyclone. About 99%+ of all owners rate them 5/5! Same for a Rapid, a Sumatra, a Sam Yang or many other fine FOREIGN manufacturers air guns. Crosman makes some fine guns which are highly rated such as the Disco, MRod and others, but maybe not 99% +. Can’t find enough data on non biased non dealer sites to even tabulate it but from the controversy surrounding AF guns I think it may not be even as high as 50% – 65% of all AF owners who find them to be 5/5!
*Think I am lying? Try to buy just TWO RANDOM standard tanks and get em to shoot to the same poi with out fiddling with them!! Others including me have tried it with no success. Wait! I could not get them to shoot same poi even spending hours fiddling with them! In fact, some claim to have gone through 5 or even 10 without finding even 2 which shoot to the same poi!!! I EXPECT 98% + of ALL interchangeable tanks to shoot to the same poi. Else there is NO reason to have interchangeable tanks!
So ban me if you want. As I said, “frankly my dear I don’t give a d…”. But I am not going to sit by and watch you praise a gun which has major shortcomings as is from the factory without saying something. And yes, no pressure gauge is a major shortcoming for ANY pcp. Even a cheap a.. Disco at $275 new has one! And even it’s cheap a.. stock is more comfortable and better than that found on the Talon. And even it’s cheap a.. plastic trigger only requires three screws costing about $2 to modify it to be way better than a Talon trigger can be unless you spend about $55 plus shipping on the Talon.
And that my friends is “The rest of the story”.
new2this,
No, that isn’t the rest. You continue to malign a great product with one limited experience of a used gun.
And I’m not going to lie down for it.
I am sorry you are so bitter about your experience, but this blog is about having fun — not with carrying grudges.
B.B.
new2,
I quote you:
“And while you may have plenty of READERS who back you up, I can find just as many non-readers of yours who say you are full of it and don’t know what you are talking about.”
So you are totally discounting every Talon SS owner who’s opinion is different from yours? That my friend is bias!
-Chuck
New2this… if you still have the gun (or know who has it), and BB is willing, I’ll pay to have it shipped back and forth between the two of you so he can check it out. I think we’d all be interested in getting to the bottom of this…
If BB is biased, it’s probably a bias borne of much experience… and it wouldn’t make much sense to dismiss it out of hand.
new2this,
B.B. has already addressed most of your comments. My 2 cents:
1. Keep it clean or this really will be your last comment on the blog. I ban entire ISPs (your internet connection) based on one rotten apple. I already see some brown spots on your apple, so be nice.
2. Customer product reviews are, indeed, filtered on Pyramyd Air’s website. Notice what I called them: CUSTOMER product reviews. While we allow non-customers to supply reviews, we don’t allow people who’ve spent their money elsewhere to come to Pyramyd Air’s site and malign a product…even if it already has nothing but negative comments from CUSTOMERS. You read that right: You cannot write negative reviews if you bought the product elsewhere. If this doesn’t make sense to you, I suggest you find another item you’ve bought and complain vociferously to a manufacturer that did not make it or a retailer who did not sell it to you. That’s how absurd it is to expect any retailer to accept overwhelmingly negative comments from someone who bought the item from someone else.
3. The reason there are lots of aftermarket places for AirForce guns is because the guns are the equivalent of the VW Beetle. The original Beetle was a basic car that did what the mfr said it would do. However, there were so many opportunities to upgrade and modify the car that a huge aftermarket business was generated. Were these people unhappy with their Beetles? No, they saw potential to personalize it and make it into something else. However, not everyone who bought aftermarket parts knew how to install them. And, so, there were plenty of partially assembled Beetles that sat around garages while the owners gave up or looked for expertise to fix their alterations. It appears that the former owner of your gun may have done things that compromised the accuracy and perhaps the very integrity of your gun. No wonder he sold it to the first person who knew nothing about the guns…you. I wonder how many people passed up that “golden” opportunity before you came along? When something is a really, really, really good deal…it smells like yesterday’s fish.
You said you sold the gun & didn’t lose much. Be happy, find a gun you love and move on.
Remember item No. 1, or you’re outta here.
Edith
I really don’t want to argue with you but being a car guy I can’t let it go.
Comparing a Talon SS to a VW Beetle… these cars had to WORK to get up some hills.
A true performer off the lot that can be customized into super car territory would be a Mustang or Camaro, these are great cars off the lot but with a few hundred bucks for parts and a dyno you can bring a new Mustang up to 800hp and still drive on the street, of course if you don’t do any other modification you’ll fry every part between the engine and the ground.
I think the very same principle applies to the AF guns, you can mod the hell out of them but if you don’t take everything in consideration you’ll scrap the gun and end up with a gun that can’t shoot or to bring the car analogy back a car that doesn’t move.
J-F
J-F,
My age is showing 🙂 When I think of cars that are highly modifiable, I don’t think of newer cards like Camaros and Mustangs. I bet the number of VW Beetle aftermarket mods & upgrades far exceeds the ones available for Camaros & Mustangs.
Edith
Your willing to bet on that? What exactly are you willing to put on the line 😉
A simple google search for VW Beetle aftermarket parts brings up 281 000 results, the same ford mustang aftermarket parts search brings up 1 630 000 results. Mustangs have been produced non stop since the very early 60’s compared to the bug that was only produced for the south american market for a long while until the 80’s when the stopped making them to bring them back in recent years.
Beetles can be fun and cute little cars (I like the dune buggies they made out of them) but Mustangs can be so much more, from nice cruiser, to lowered customs, corner carvers, drifting cars and drag race cars there’s so much possibility.
J-F