The benefits of oiling pellets: Part 1

by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier

This report will be lengthy because I want to test several aspects of oiling pellets. For starters, I want to test it with spring guns, PCPs and CO2 guns just to get a complete picture of what, if anything, oiling pellets is doing in each of those powerplants. I’m interested in velocity because of the question that spawned this blog, but accuracy might also be interesting to test.

The question
We received this question in the following form. I will paraphrase, but this is the gist of it, “How much faster do pellets go when they are oiled?” That question came in on one of our social networks and was referred to me for an answer. Well, you know me! Give me a topic and I turn it into a week’s worth of blogs. But this question really begged for the full treatment because there’s so much to cover.

History
When I got interested in shooting airguns as an adult in the middle 1970s, the question of oiling pellets wasn’t around (as far as I know). In talking with the late Rodney Boyce, I learned that the oiling question really came to a head when PCPs first started being used in the early 1980s. A PCP shoots very dry air, and their barrels are made from steel; so, at the higher velocities, they tend to get leaded bores. Some shooters were also oiling pellets for their spring guns; but a lot of the time they did it because they washed the pellets, thinking the black compound on them was dirt. In fact, it was anti-oxidant to keep the pellets from turning to white dust. Had they just left the pellets alone, they wouldn’t have oxidized.

In defense of the spring-gun guys who washed their pellets, though, some brands did have a lot of lead swarf (flakes of lead from the manufacturing process) inside some of the pellets, and vigorous washing did remove it. But then the pellets needed to be oiled again, or they would quickly oxidize.

Why we oil pellets
We oil pellets for two reasons. The first is to prevent the oxidation of the lead after washing. The second is to reduce the leading of the bore, though this is principally a PCP problem. Other pneumatics either shoot too slowly or they have brass or bronze barrels that do not allow the lead to attach itself, so they do not lead up.

Do oiled pellets shoot faster?
That was the question that started this report. I’ve tested this in the past and found that with a PCP shooting .177 pellets at 850-900 f.p.s., oiled pellets went slower, not faster. But that was just one test, and I don’t want to say what oiling will do for other guns until I do some more testing.

Flimflam man
I’ll tell you this — oiling pellets became such a hot topic in the late ’90s that people were swapping their favorite secret formulas on the internet. And I know one UK company that sells an oil for pellets that they still claim gives increased velocity. Well, that’s too good to pass up, so I’ll test some of their oil in this test.

Not just oil
Don’t think that oil is the only thing people put on pellets. I remember lengthy discussions of how to apply a thin even coat of wax on pellets. Then, the topic shifted to what kind of wax to use! One guy went so far as to specify a high-tech boat hull compound called Bo-Shield for his pellets. When he talked about it his eyes got that faraway stare, as though he was transcending the real world and entering the spirit world.

What I will test
The first thing I want to do — have to do, in my mind — is test what the application of oil does to the velocity of pellets. Okay, that opens about 10 worm cans, right there:

What constitutes “an application of oil”? (I have seen paragraphs of instructions telling you how to know if the application of oil has been enough or if you need more.)
Am I testing this on lightweight pellets? Heavy pellets?
Do I test a powerful springer as well as a lower-powered springer?
Do I also test this on a precharged pneumatic?
A powerful PCP and a lower-powered PCP?
What about testing on a CO2 gun?

And on and on….

I think the best approach is to ask the question: Why do we oil pellets and who does it? We know that people who wash pellets also oil them, and we know that PCP users oil them; so that includes all the categories above. I don’t see a need to go to the extremes with this test. I’m not HP White Labs, and this isn’t a burning consumer question. If the findings suggest further testing, I could decide at that point?

What about the possible side effects?
Will oiling a pellet cause extra dieseling? Maybe. Is that what’s behind those flimflam salesmen who claim that oiled pellets go faster than dry pellets? I don’t know for certain; but as long as I’m going down the path, this is something I want to look at. Obviously, we’re talking only about powerful spring guns.

Does oiling affect accuracy?
I don’t know, but it seems we ought to find out. This gives me another excuse to unlimber my R8…so, hurrah!

Have I forgotten anything?
You tell me if I’ve overlooked any test that ought to be conducted. This isn’t a guessing game or a creativity contest, so please tell me only things that really matter to you.

142 thoughts on “The benefits of oiling pellets: Part 1


    • Jeff,

      Graphite! Interesting. I might do that. I might also include some pellets coated with moly. I tried that years ago, but found no discernible difference in either velocity or accuracy.

      Thanks for your input,

      B.B.


  1. I think it is most useful in countries with low power limits.
    Tried a lube years ago advertised to add power and realized by the tell tale smell I turned my BSA into a little dieseling machine.
    Gave up when it started to sound like a .22 lr and smoke like the Marlboro man.




      • hello BB,
        will be interesting to read your findings. i fiddled with the whole pellet lubing thing years back. i found that it didn’t make much difference either way with most of my guns, but i do lube pellets for one gun, a career 707 set up for premiers. because i found it cuts down on cleaning the bore a bit. i don’t use oil however. i use bore butter, which is an all natural lube used for seasoning muzzle loader bores.i heat some up to melt it and then tumble my pellets in a plastic jar with a small amount. i found it keeps the leading down and i have to clean less often.


  2. Tom & Edith,

    I’m convinced that you’re each so busy that you don’t realize the far reaching (read worldwide) impact that your blogs have.

    With this in the forefront of my thoughts and concerns I wish you would have used the word “Lube” instead of “Oiling” in the title and throughout the blog.

    Dieseling is a minor distraction for newbies wanting to introduce oil into their airgunning experience but detonation is a more common result which is unintended by this blog (I get it) but inevitable by wide eyed newbies that want to try any and all suggested techniques especially those suggested by a veteran like B.B. Pelletier.

    Lubing pellets with whiscombe honey, krytech, pledge, graphite, slick 50, ballistol, etc. should be encouraged since it may improve accuracy. I’m all for testing.

    Benefits of “OILING” Pellets can be catastrophic because of the unspoken empowerment.

    kevin


    • Kevin,

      Like I told Volvo, I do have a plan. I plan to use Whiscombe honey and other safe things. That is going to be part of this report, because I am aware that new shooters will read it and might try what I suggest.

      I used “oiling” because it is a more common term for this (I think) and I wanted it to come up when someone does a search.

      Thanks,

      B.B.


    • Kevin,

      Being a newbie myself, I was a little confused by the term “oil” versus lube. People have talked about lubricating pellets here on this blog, and they’ve thrown out several different formulations, or preferences, but I don’t recall anyone saying that they actually used “oil”. That immediately through my simple mind into a tail-spin. Thanks for clearing this up!

      Victor



  3. In my TX200, velocity is unchanged by oiling pellets with Balistol. I do a verything coating and never spray the pellets directly. I would like to know if Balistol is good for this purpose.


  4. B.B.

    Be careful that you don’t fool yourself and everyone else with this one.

    You might end up needing some suggestions on how to get certain kinds of lubes back out of the barrel if you use certain “wrong” things.

    twotalon


  5. BB,

    I would like to know, since I have this problem myself, is how to prevent pellet oxidation without the use of “lube” (by Kevin)… Maybe I see too many oxidized pellets in a tin can due to the climate here in Brazil, hot and humid. But, if oiling isn’t good to protect them, and let them alone do produce oxidation, what else can I do?
    BTW, I do not apply any kind of “lube” to my pellets, I simply discard those too oxidized…


    • Fred,

      Normally I would say wait for the answer, but if you are throwing away pellets you need help now. Whiscombe Honey is what ypu want. It is a mixture of STP Engine treatment and Hoppes Gun oil. I am on the road and don’t have access to the exact ratios where I am, but when I return to the office I will find them for you. Or perhaps a reader has them?

      B.B.


    • Fred…

      A couple things to try…
      Seal the tins with electrical tape. Make sure to leave a bit of folded over end so you have a tab to pull on to open it again.

      You might also try to find some of the small dessicant packs that you could drop into the tins before you seal them back up. Some dessicant can be refreshed by cooking it in the oven .

      twotalon


    • Fred What about your air guns? How do you store all ur guns,or what steps you do after shooting before putting them back.Most of my air guns are in South Carolina 80 in total some are stored in origial boxes.Some I made racks in a spare bedroom.I wipe them with a gun cloth $5 I have three all the time.when I get new gun I remove stock and wipe the action with old white tee shirt,then with gun cloth.Every now and them Ill put 4or5 drops of crosman pellgun oil to keep it from drying.


  6. Should the pellets be washed and lubed again every 3 months or so if not used? I suspect any additive package in the lubricant might be degraded if left too long, esp. in a harsh environment. It also seems like you could extend the life of the lubricant on the tin of oiled pellets either by evacuating the container or by some form of air filtration system and air quality monitoring either on the tin or in the storage area :) .

    Seriously, I can see the point of weighing and sorting, but washing (in particular as it washes off a lubricant, namely graphite) and oiling has always sounded like a scam to me. I’ll be interested to see the results.



      • I guess I actually do the same thing on the pellet tins without screw tops. RWS pellets come with their own sealing tape, although it loses its stick if you shoot them up too slowly.


        • BG_F

          I don’t shoot the RWS. I use a lot of H&N. If I am careful enough, sometimes I can reuse the tape that comes on the tin. The tin that I am currently using from does not get taped up again. I don’t have an oxidation problem with them. Then there are the JSB. Same thing. “in use” tins remain open, “not in use” stay sealed.
          Some tins have lube, some don’t. The exact RS are split this way. Lube for the T200, no lube for the R7s.

          twotalon


          • Being a tightwad, I tend to shoot cheap (but known adequate) pellets a lot (for plinking) and only pull out the good ones when I have something requiring best accuracy, so I reseal whenever I use them. A few more useless types have sat for years now and not really shown any oxidation. The tins seal pretty well without tape, also. I use them for pre-lubed patches, and they are often usable for a month afterwards, although occasionally they will need a little bit of liquid added after a week or two.


  7. I’ve fired thousands of rounds in springer and pcp without lube and never lost accuracy or discovered leading. There’s simply not enough heat to fuse the lead. Even 22LR subsonic lead round have no lube or coating to protect their barrels.

    I would say the risk of compression detonation far outways the risk of leading.

    Co2 and stroke neumatics already have “application safe” oil applied to each shot since you need to oil their pistons periodically.

    Finally, the graphite coating is deposited in the barrel on every shot, providing a protective coating. Just clean an AG barrel to see this in action. I do clean my AGs every 18 months and no more frequently.

    I’ll step off my soap box now :-)

    Thanks BB for this great blog. I read it daily and enjoy it very much :-)


    • RE: “I’ve fired thousands of rounds in springer and pcp without lube and never lost accuracy or discovered leading.”

      My perception has been that leading in the barrel is the problem that lubing the pellets is trying to solve.

      Herb


    • RE: Not enough heat to fuse lead

      Well two sort of incomplete theories to “polishing” something smooth. It would probably be best to define two terms.

      “Grinding” involves making smaller and smaller scratches while removing “large” amounts of material.

      “Polishing” involves more rearranging atoms on material’s surface rather than removing them.

      In grinding and polishing the heat is generated at the surface contact between the two materials. So the bulk materials don’t have to be melted. Think of a blob of butter on a hot skillet. You can slide the blob of butter around skillet as it melts.

      Don’t have any real clue other than visual inspection to resume how much lead is in bore. Of course a large build up probably causes accuracy problems by asymmetric grinding of pellet.


  8. B.B,
    I use Silicone lube(spray) on my pellets to prevent oxidation and found that it keeps the bore fairly clean but It will cause detonation if there is too much in the skirt of the pellet.
    I remember one incident when I was shooting my TF89 using Barracudas. AS I was loading one pellet I noticed that there was quite a bit of lube in the skirt but did not think it would have any adverse effects. Boy ,was I wrong. I pulled the trigger and “KA-BOOM”-the barrel broke open the breech seal blew off and with my ears still ringing from the report, I remember hearing the pellet hitting metal down range. The only metal down range was a filing cabinet standing about 5ft to the left of the target.
    Just make sure Edith is standing behind you when you start testing.

    Pete




    • Funny you should mention filing cabinets. I have an old one that I have taken a few shots at with my nitro TR77. I was amazed at the hole that .177 caliber pellet made. I measured the hole at 6.25mm and disintegrated the pellets. I’m impressed with that power. It was a crosman pointed pellet.


  9. BB, how about including edible oil like coconut/olive/canola for hunting use. Squirrel with PTFE/moly trace is not exactly my idea of back to nature camping meal.


    • Infuse the olive oil with garlic and herbs, and it sounds perfect :). Seriously, organic oils work in muzzleloaders, so the low pressure, temperature and velocity in an air rifle shouldn’t cause any problems. The only caveat is that these kinds of oils can build up and require removal (and petroleum oil is actually worse with BP) after a while; I suspect it would take a long time in an air rifle to be noticeable because the oil isn’t getting baked on, though.


    • Lee,
      I wash a small amt of pellets the day before going on a hunting trip and relube the remnants when I get back home. Spray with Fantastik and then soak in water with laundry detergent or dishwashing liquid for 1/2 hr, rinse and put them out in the sun to dry. If that is too much work then go for head shots only.

      Pete


    • Unless you are hitting a squirrel with something the size of a Volkswagen Beetle there shouldn’t be enough oil or graphite to have any negative effects on your squirrel meat. You’d get such a small trace amount in the edible meat it would pass through your system without your noticing.


      • Once in a while (actually more often than I would prefer) I got wounded animals still running around before dropping dead. I imagine all the chemicals (if using lubed pellet) will get into blood streams and spread pretty quickly during that period.

        Maybe only my paranoia but as of now I won’t be lubing my pellets.


        • I’d think the lead used in your pellets would have more of a fear factor than a drop of oil. Looking at this from a coroner’s point of view. When you shoot that squirrel you are opening up a hole in it that wasn’t meant to be there . It’s blood leaves that hole instead of continuing to circulate through the squirrel thus death by blood loss which is part of how any projectile kills. So the chances it’s blood is contaminated is near zero. The only contamination is along the bullet furrow which is very minimal. Most of what the pellet hits you won’t be eating anyway.


  10. BB,

    I was going to suggest Wayne Burn’s magic coconut oil as one of your testing lubricants but I believe Wayne may have moved on to some other lube as a result of his competition results? Anyway, Lee beat me to it above.

    As an aside, in my 25 yard bullseye competitions, I use RWS’ (the 50″s and 100″s marked boxes) 22 LR’s and found that they do have some type of lubricant on them. It may be only to keep the lead bullets from oxidizing but I am uncertain why RWS puts the lube on them but you can certainly feel it.

    Fred DPRoNJ


    • Frank/Fred,
      I, too, was surprised Coconut oil wasn’t mentioned because of Wacky Wayne’s experiments with it. I posed a question to Wayne a while back on this blog, after a year had passed, asking if he still used it and his response was that he doesn’t anymore. I believe he said he didn’t notice any difference, and he has since moved on to other aspects of field target with his competition and on his range.
      -Chuckj


  11. BB,
    I think you’re referencing Boeshield T9. I’ve got some in the shop if you need a source. Seems like a paraffin-type wax in a petroleum based solvent. The Pro Gold ProLink lube is similar. Don’t forget all the shooters swearing by Krytech from Finish Line. Shoot me an email if you need some of these.


    • Derrick,

      Don’t tell me Boeing stopped using LPS 3 for their anti corrosion agent! It’s a great product for that since LPS 3 has wax in it too. I sprayed gallons of that stuff in the late 80′s on 747 insides. Might work pretty well on pellets too!

      /Dave



  12. BB, can you answer a totally off blog subject (but still AG )question? I figured you might have heard this if it was indeed true. I’m sure you know who Jess Galan is. I saw a topic on a forum that said he may have passed away. Do you know if that’s true? I’ve read and enjoyed all his books.
    Thanks


    • Nathan,

      I saw a question on a forum on Network 54 that asked if he was still around. I didn’t see anything that confirmed it or even suggested that he was deceased. They were just asking if he’s around because they haven’t seen anything written by him lately.

      In recent years, I’ve seen columns by him in gun publications, and I remember Tom saying that he’d seen Jess at various SHOT Shows (I don’t remember how recent, though).

      No obituary under his name when I did a Google search. So, I’m going to assume he’s still alive & shootin’.

      Edith


  13. B.B.,

    I’ve noticed over at StraightShooters that Napiers are coated with oil and very fast (but messy and inaccurate), so it wouldn’t surprise me if lubricating pellets yields some sort of velocity increase.

    This is definitely an interesting subject!

    Dave


    • Yes. I believe that was the “nameless” company he was referring to. :)

      I use there air gun pull through cleaning kit. Bought strangely enough from Straight Shooters. :)

      Cheers.



      • BB, would you also run tests with a Condor. Since in the Airforce Condor instruction video you say to oil the pellets I’d really like to see why you said to do that. i generally use my condor on low setting since I have the 24″ barrel fully shrouded which is nice and quiet on low but still sounds like an AK47 going off on high. I already know about their legendary accuracy and I fire non-oiled pellets, so I want to know about this particular gun.


        • John,

          I will tell you right now why I recommend oiling (yes, I said oiling) Crosman Premier pellets for the Condor. Premiers will lead the bore when they go very fast, and a Condor will make them go very fast. We oil those pellets so they won’t lead the bore.

          B.B.


          • Ok. thanks for the info. I’ll continue oiling them then for that gun. I don’t normally use crosman premiers though since they are not readily available in my area. I use crosman pointed hunting pellets since that’s what is at my local store. I still get very good accuracy.


  14. B.B.,

    I can’t believe that after all of these posts no one has mentioned the phrase “Crosman Pellgun Oil”! :^)

    As long as the formula for Whiscomb Honey has once again been revealed, what is pellgun oil again? (I have a few CO2 pellet pistols that get a lot of indoor use in this weather, so as much as I like the easy application those little tubes provide . . .)

    Also, some hgher-end pellets I’ve tried seem to have a slippery coating already on them, either that, or I’m starting to fumble more now that I’m on the wrong, er, WISE side of 50. Aw, probably a bit of both. Is it my imagination, or do some pellet makers coat their pellets with something slippery?

    Michael


    • I hope your not wrong, Micheal! Being on the same side of 50, I notice that I drop a lot of pellets too. They just seem to squirt out of my fingers all too regularly…

      /Dave


      • Dave,

        Last night all I tried to do was load two Marauder magazines with CPLs, which I do not consider to be extra slippery, and to get 20 pellets into their little holes took me forever, and in the process I dropped five pellets. I kid you not. And despite my doing this at a table and over an old deep-lipped cafeteria tray, three of the five that I dropped somehow made it to the floor.

        Well, in the words of the great Bette Davis, “Gettin’ old ain’t for no sissies!”

        Michael


      • I’m not at 50 yet. Only 44 but I have some problems fumbling pellets too. I found the .177 I do it more so i swapped over to firing .22 cal and found i fumble far less with a bigger pellet. But that could be all the arthritic previously broken fingers making me fumble pellets instead of something slippery. One solution is those pellet pens. They work with break barrels but I doubt they’d be much good on something like my condor or a side lever. I find those way too hard to load so i tend to avoid side lever guns.


        • John,

          I agree regarding larger calibers.

          Also, while side-levers and under-levers are not something a pellet pen would be a help with, I should have thought to use my pellet pen for loading those Marauder mags. Duh! That would have helped a LOT with the magazines.

          But then there is still the issue of loading the pellet pen . . . .

          Michael


          • There is that, but you can sit at a table at your leisure and load the pen. That way when time counts you can easily break the gun, use pellet pen, close gun fire. Doesn’t work so wel with a side lever or some mutant like the airforce guns. I don’t have a miracle solution other than use a bigger caliber, make every shot count. If I need something with a fast follow up I set the airgun aside and grab a seni-auto like my Marlin 60 which is a bit “iffy” since I never know when it will jam or a more reliable AK variant.



              • I’ve tried all sorts of things, more powerful loads, stainless steel casings, nickle plated casings, give it two or three shots and I’m digging out a smashed spent casing and the round that tried to load into the chamber too. I’m just about to throw the thing away in frustration.


                • john. One last question all ammo was 22lr.Its possible that the extractor does not catch the rim.My marlin 60(2001 $140) has 1000 rounds through it,so its fairly new.


                  • If it is catching the rim it’s not doing a very food job. The problem is it extracts the spent casing then smashes it in the action and jams the next bullet into the breech under it requiring me to totally field strip it in order to clear the jam. Usually I need my multi tool to get the smashed casing out of the action as well. I don’t have time to deal with it so I’ll likely take it into to get repaired sometime this summer. If they don’t fix the problem I’ll tear it apart and toss the wretched thing and rely on my condor and ak47′s to do the job I wanted my marlin 60 for.


    • Pellgunoil is 30W Monolec GFS (a diesel fleet oil of exceptional detergency) according to the Crosman MSDS last time I checked. Conventional wisdom was that it was 20W non-detergent motor oil. A few thought it was ATF (due to red color, which is a quirk of Monolec apparently and more evidence for that). I’ll go with anything close to 30W motor oil, but I won’t tell you what to do. Some people swear that the stuff in the tiny tube has magical properties, even after they see the data sheet.


  15. Off-topic, but a short while ago I asked about blow-back air handguns that had the most kick. My neighbor rarely gets to the range with his powder burners but wants to keep in practice in his basement. Many of you kindly provided your insight.

    He came over to sample the few blow-back airguns I have, and surprise! The two that he was most impressed with kick-wise were not blowback at all! He became completely into the response of my Webley Hurricane and Beeman P1! He offered to buy either on the spot, but when I explained the economics to him, he was disappointed.

    Then I dusted off a Compasseco-era Chinese (crude) copy of the old Diana and BSF break-barrel pellet pistols. He shot that, and the rough jump impressed him, albeit not as much as the other two. So I gave it to him.

    Unless he has been infected with our disease, that might actually do it for him, although the trigger has probably a 15 pound pull. Any ideas as to what to do to take the trigger pull down to, say, 10 pounds or less?

    Michael


    • The old Industry Brand S2′s? Polishing and altering the trigger springs does a fair bit of good, as I remember.

      I had 3 at one point. Wish I could find another…


      • Vince,

        This is the Industry one with the break-barrel, not the one with the loading port and the underlever. (Man, I wish I had one of those!)

        After giving one away, I now have three of them, in their boxes. Hmmm.

        I got them so cheap at the time that I thought I’d take ‘em apart, destroy one or two out of negligence, improve one, and use them to learn on. I still might do that.

        Michael


  16. B.B.,
    Perhaps you should ask Olympic airgun shooters why they don’t oil their pellets?
    I will bet that most will give you a look like…”Are you a Moron?”


    • Joe,

      World class precision air-rifles are in a different class altogether, and not just because of accuracy. Those rifles cost, on average, about $3000.00, shoot at around 600 fps, and they only shoot at 10 meters (approximately 33 feet).

      I believe that lubricating pellets would apply to an entirely different kind of air-gun, or application. That’s the point of this blog, to investigate if there is any benefit to it, and if so, using what for lubrication. Apparently some claim that there is a real benefit to lubricating? Many questions arise from this. Precision class 10 meters rifles are highly specialized and tuned for precisely what they do.

      As a world-class field target guy why he doesn’t use an FWB 700 alu, and they will give you a look like…”Are you a Moron?”

      Victor


      • Victor,
        WRONG, because lead pellet is a natural Lube. No need to oil them. That is why Olympic 10-meter shooters only lightly clean their barrel about once every 1000 rounds or more. Light cleaning means dragging one cleaning pad thru or shooting a couple of cleaning pellets thru the barrel. They don’t want to clean all the lead out of the barrel. A coat of lead does protect the barrel. SHocking isn’t it? Everything I said here, applies to all airguns not just the expensive 10-m kind.
        Who was the idiot that started this oiling pellet business?


        • Joe,

          “idiot”? Every Olympic medal in small-bore that I know of was won using ammo that is lubricated with a formulation that includes Bee’s Wax. Ever heard of Eley Tenex, also known as Eley “Red”? It’s been demonstrated that the lubricant (aka “oil”, as explained by B.B. to get more hits here) used will even make other non-lubricated ammo shoot better, until the lubricant wears off. Yes, I know we’re talking about .22 rim-fire ammo, but it’s also ammo that is subsonic.

          I personally have never lubricated my pellets, but until I know more, I’ll choose not assume that it has absolutely no merit, and hear B.B. out with this informal investigation.

          How much testing have you done with lubricated pellets (e.g., of various weights, brands, types, and at different velocity ranges)?

          I haven’t done any testing, which is why THIS blog, as opposed to so many others out there, is so interesting to me and others. Rather than make assumptions, which we all know what that gets us, I’d rather keep an open mind and actually try to learn something, which has happened a lot here (for me at least).

          Victor


          • I tested two FWB P70 for best ammo, by locking them into a rifle vise and shooting a 10-shot group. One P70 likes H&N Match 4.49mm, and the circle that enclosed ALL 10 shots measured 6.5mm in diameter (NOT c-t-c). The next P70 likes RWS R-10 4.49mm, and and the circle that enclosed ALL 10 shots measured 5.7mm in diameter (NOT c-t-c). These pellet comes straight from the factory and NOT LUBE! I am very happy with the results and don’t want to lube any pellets. Next question please?



            • IS THERE A PERSON HERE THAT CAN SHOW ME THAT AN AIR RIFLE CAN DO BETTER THAN 5.7mm or 6.5mm USING LUBE PELLETS. 5.7mm is the diameter of the circle that fully enclosed a 10-shot group shot at 10-meter, NOT c-t-c. ALL YOU LUBE PELLETS FANS, PLEASE SHOW ME!!!!


              • Joe,

                I’m sure you’ll get an answer from some of our knowledge readers. However, in the future, you might want to unlock the caps key on your keyboard. Using all caps on internet correspondence is akin to screaming/yelling in a conversation :-)

                Edith


              • Joe,

                Calm down, man.

                I will actually test the question you asked, and I will show everyone the groups. The bar is set at 5.7 mm for 10 shots at 10 meters.

                Now that is an extremely small group for ANY rifle shooting ANY pellets, since it only allows 1.2mm C-T-C for the distribution. Have you ever shot 10 shots that tight with anything?

                I don’t think I can shoot that well, but I will use an FWB 300 and I’ll give it my best try.

                B.B.


    • Joe,

      One other thing. I’ve spoken with several retailers about these high-end air-rifles used by world class precision class air-gunners, and they all agree on one thing, namely, that a pump should not be used, only air-tanks. The reason they say is because of moisture. The claim is that moisture taken from the environment will shorten the life of these very fine rifles. I know that lots of people use pumps for their PCP’s, and maybe that’s fine for non-precision class rifles, but it isn’t recommended for the higher end rifles. My guess is that the same recommendation would be true for adding any kind of lubricant to one of these rifles, whether it be to the barrel, or pellets themselves.

      Victor


      • Victor,

        I’ve heard this claim, too but from a salesman at a predominatly firearms store. However, I have yet to hear of or meet someone whose rifle or PCP pistol has actually been damaged by moisture from soley using a handpump. I just don’t know if there is a problem with moisture introduced by a hand pump into the reservoir of a PCP. Until I actually witness such a situation, I’ll take this with a drop of coconut oil (as oppposed to a grain of salt) :)

        Fred DPRoNJ


        • Fred DPPoNJ,

          You and B.B. are probably right on this. Of course, what may be a bigger issue for a precision class shooter is what the effort to fill a PCP will do to one’s heart-rate. Of course, time is another issue. It is kind of cool to be able to fill a tube in just seconds.

          Victor




          • High pressure air pumps have a moisture filter system in them. At least that’s what I was told when i got my Benjamin pump which is identical to the Airforce pump. Both are made by sun optics in the same plant. Since I live in a place where humidity can reach 100% I have seen the water discharhe from the pressure relief valve but when I cracked open my discovery to do some upgrading there was no evidence there was ever water in the gun. So that must be true. Therefore I don’t really think it harms a pcp gun to use a pump. If it did my condor wouldn’t be used with a pump since I have quite a bit of money wrapped up in that gun. Since Tom was involved in the development of the discovery and the airforce guns I bet he could do a whole series on scuba tank air vs. pumps. Might be a good idea for another day.


            • John,

              I know almost nothing about guns (just like shooting them), which is why I asked the “experts” at Champion Shooting Supply, Champions Choice, and others. I know that PA prefers that we not mention competitors, so I’ll just leave it at that. I also happen know that B.B. doesn’t agree that hand-pumps can contribute to any sort of ill-effect. My thoughts are simply that when laying out $3K, it’s best to play it as safe as possible, even if potentially wrong.

              Victor


              • I’d assume someone that “doesn’t much know about guns but just likes shooting” wouldn’t shell out for a special order only olympic grade 10 meter rifle. But I don’t know you. Maybe you have that kind of money to burn. Not trying to offend or be combative, so please don’t take it that way. But I don’t know of any olympic shooter that has a problem with air pumps. The reason they use scuba tanks is first, they have very limited time to fill a gun so scuba tanks are faster. Second in competition on an Olympic level there is A LOT of shooting and pumping up a gun to 3000 psi is very tiring. I’m not aware of any concerns with moisture in their guns from using a pump. Scuba tanks just take a lot of work out of the competition. Also keep in mind to shoot in olympic 10 meter you don’t have to be in top physical shape like a track star. You just need to be able to shoot accurately.


                • John,

                  I apologize if I came off as combative! I’m just repeating what I was told, consistently. World Class competitors sometimes travel with multiple air-tubes. However, I expect that venues will have tanks available, because traveling with pressurized containers can be hazardous. Yes, it wouldn’t make sense for someone to work their heart-rate up pumping up an air-tube.

                  As for physical conditioning of World Class shooters, rifle shooters aren’t built noticeably strong, but I’d be surprised to find one that isn’t in excellent condition, even for prone. Good, strong, cardiovascular health is essential for shooting at high levels. If you’re not in excellent condition, then your whole body will become a distraction, not to mention an excessive pulse.

                  But in general, looks can be deceiving. I remember decades ago a TV show that pitted professional athletes of various sports against each other. In one series, the winner was a professional volley ball player. What blew me away, and changed how I look at people physically, is that during a power lifting event, this volleyball player out lifted several NFL players that were noticeably bigger muscle-wise.

                  Some of America’s greatest world class shooters appear to be on the heavy side, but when you see them up close and spend some time with them, you realize that the are actually pretty fit. Sometimes it’s just a matter of body type. In California, the four position State Championship was won four times in a row by Karen Monez, a very petite women. Kind of hard to imagine such a small women cleaning the offhand position with a heavy freestyle rifle, but she did almost every time.

                  Victor


                  • No problem. we are all friends here. Yeah some shooters are tiny women. Others are old law enforcement or old combat veterans like me. I’m 220 pounds and I have a tough time filling a gun to 3000 psi with a pump. I have a small Filipino friend that is all of 180 dripping wet but solid muscle and he can’t pump a gun to 3000 psi even though he has tried. Point is in shooting sports not everyone can handle the harder equipment like air pumps which is why they use scuba tanks other than what I mentioned. In 10 meter your level of fitness doesn’t matter quite as much as something like field and track where power and speed is everything. When you get to biathalon that’s where physical conditioning comes into play. It all depends on your shooting sport what your level of physical fitness is. As far as the gun goes it doesn’t really matter where the air comes from as far as moisture. That’s all I was trying to point out and why people like olympians use scuba tanks vs. air pumps. Some even travel with high pressure electric compressors. But those are rather expensive for common people to afford. A pump is simply the easiest on the pocket regardless of the pcp gun.


  17. I think a down side to oiling pellets will be the accuracy. Oil tends to collect in the skirt and then flow into a pool on one side. No matter how lightly you oil, gravity has its say with a puddle of oil on one side of hhe skirt it will destabilize the pellet by dynamically unbalancing it. I’m not sure if the spin will even it out by the time it reaches the end of the barrel. I guess testing will tell.

    /Dave


    • You may be right but that blast of air that pushes the pellet might flatten and spreat out the puddle of oil in the skirt if not spatter it in the barrel. That’s quite a bit of air to drive that piece of lead as fast as it does.


  18. What about those who don’t wash pellets but still want lube, could the barrel be lubed and how many shots would it last?
    Soaking a felt pellet in lube and then pushing (or stacking and shooting a few) it the length of the barrel could leave an even coat all along the barrel.

    J-F



    • Buy high quality pellets and you will NOT need to clean them. Try H&N Match or the RWS R-10. Open a tin and your see how clean and shinny they are. This will save you a LOT of time and trouble, and not to mention your gun will shoot better.


      • I don’t clean or lube my pellets, it was just to add some oil to the fire ;)
        and maybe try and put other things to explore when doing the full reports on pellet lubed vs unlubed.

        How about polishing pellets? Would that be crazy? I can see it, the guy with his tweezers holding a pellet in one hand and the dremel with polishing compound in the other LOL

        J-F


  19. This will be interesting to me for one real reason. When I got my Condor I watched the video that came with it. On this video is Tom Gaylord showing everything about this gun from swapping pellets to filling the air tank. One of the things he said to do was to oil the pellets with some 3 in 1 oil if I remember it correctly. Since I know the pellets I use are coated with graphite powder which is a dry lubricant this confuses me a bit. I wonder why Tom would say to oil the pellets when they are already factory lubricated with a dry lubricant.


  20. Okay, I have to say this after reading this report. It’s a scene from Oh God where John Denver as a manager at Food World is being inspected by his superior.

    Superior: Have you oiled your cucs [cucumbers]?
    Denver: Huh?
    Superior: Have you oiled them? It makes them look fresher.

    I was actually wondering what that black stuff is that you get on your fingers from the Crosman Premiers. It looks like lead, but I believe someone told me that it is not. Reassure me please! The Crosman Premier is part of my hunt for new pellets for my Walther Nighthawk that do not require a 50 pound trigger pull and a related chafing of my trigger finger on the guard as I try to get leverage. So far no good although the Beeman Lasers are a bit of an improvement.

    BG_Farmer, ha ha that’s a good one about Amy Fisher, but Michael is correct. :-)

    Wulfraed, count on you to come up with a DoD definition of an assault rifle. I wasn’t really thinking of them but of some person on YouTube who was saying that “assault weapons” was just a name that someone made up because of cosmetic evil features, and that the mechanism was the same as a handgun. There are elements of truth here, but the thrust is very misleading as far as I’m concerned. But as for the DoD, could you pick an organization whose definitions are more suspect than theirs? :-) They defined the Luger out of competition with the 1911 because it was German. They defined the AR-15 out of competition with the M14 and accepted it only with kicking and screaming. Once they did, they defined in new powders and other requirements that completely screwed up the gun. And decades later, they are hanging onto the M4 design for all they are worth despite evidence that we can do better. Their latest request for proposals for a new rifle said that you can enter anything you want as long as your magazine, trigger, bolt carrier group, and receiver are identical to an M4. When Roy Boehm, founder of the Navy Seals presented a report to the Army about the superiority of the AR design in the jungle compared to the M14, the representative responded: “Since you are not an approved testing facility, your report was placed in the circular file.” (Boehm ended up grabbing up the M14 rifle on display in the office and throwing it down on the guy’s desk.) Anyway, the DoD’s definitions are completely unmoored from reality.

    I do see your point about the centrality of the full-auto capability to an assault rifle and agree with it, but I don’t think that’s all there is. The Germans designed a selective fire capability into their STG44s for reasons that were mentioned by john, so there’s more to the design than full-auto.

    john, I am stunned at that story about your wife taking a sledgehammer to your new rifle. I was in agony worrying about the safety of my guns from theft while I was an away on a trip. I can’t imagine having a gun destroyed by a member of my household. Marriage can be tough gents. I heard about one woman who deeply resented her husband coming home with an expensive pair of leather shoes that took his fancy. So, in revenge, she bought some outrageously expensive piece of junk and parked it next to his shoes where it would burn in his gut forever and ever and ever even after the guy made so much money that the price of either of these things is insignificant. john, what you need are some of the hot women on this blog. Take this one story a little bit before your time. A guy was posing before his wife’s full-length mirror in a camo rig with a Gamo CFX. He polished off the performance by aiming the gun at the mirror and pulling the trigger which fired a pellet that he didn’t know was there and shattered the mirror. When his wife came home, he greeted her with lines about how beautiful and wonderful she was. She just smiled and asked him what he had done this time. There’s the girl for you!

    Or maybe the mountain men were onto something. Wasn’t it the old man Bearclaw in the movie Jeremiah Johnson who said something about how he couldn’t find truck with a woman’s heart…

    Victor, okay the 10/22 Target sounds like an ideal balance that is not so unwieldy after all. By the way, I’m noticing that the new method with the trigger squeeze is somewhat more sensitive to a hard trigger than before so this could be important.

    Michael, did not see the Cheetah you mentioned, but I can believe it was amazing. I haven’t yet turned my attention to Cheetahs. But what surprises me is that while very potent killers of prey, they are not good at defending their kills. They are routinely run off by the ever-present hyenas, jackals and a lot of other animals. Their gracile build which allows them great speed makes them less suitable for fighting. It has been said for other reasons, mostly having to do with temperament, that cheetahs are the most dog-like of the great cats.

    Now, the question is which are the most cat-like of the great cats. What is the essential cat? The cat qua cat? My answer is the leopard–solitary, cunning, and deadly. Their physical skills are incredible. I was watching one chase a squirrel up and down a tree in Africa. There’s another video of a snow leopard in the Himalayas chasing a goat by sprinting at top speed down the side of a cliff.

    Lions are the most violent with their whole lives built around sex. The big manes of the males are for sexual attraction (the black ones have more success) and for armoring the neck against bites, and their lives are designed around fighting for control of females. But what has my attention now are the tigers. There are graceful as could be, but you see these incredible bulging muscles showing through their skin. I like to lift my kettlebell, then watch the tigers and repeat…

    Matt61


    • Well, I’m not a DOD fan, but……..

      The Luger was out because it was way too dirt sensitive.

      The rifle the DOD rejected in favor of the M-14 was the AR-10 (.308) not the AR-15 (.223). When the Air Force adopted the AR-15, suddenly everyone wanted one.

      The powder they went to for the AR-15/M-16 wasn’t new, it was the same old powder that was used in the .308 which was the wrong burning rate and too dirty for the .223 cartridge. Trying use the old powder was a big mistake!

      I’m not up on what the DOD currently wants. Last I heard it was looking at the HK version of the M-4 with an operating rod action. We are getting closer to the AK!

      Mike


      • The m-16 was designed to use a special clean burning rod shaped granular propellant which did not require the gun be frequently cleaned. But the propellant was expensive so the government ordered the rounds for it be made with cheaper standard propellant which gunked up the chamber. When the gun was extensively fired that build up would cause a shell to stick and break causing the next round to enter the broken shell and jam so the gun couldn’t fire. This usually happened at the worst possible moment resulting in many soldiers dying. The solution was to chrome line the barrels in the M-16A1 which solved the problem.


    • Matt61,

      And again, the secret to a heavier trigger is to deliberately squeeze it. B.B. and I have independently discovered that some heavy triggers require more aggressive treatment. The slower you squeeze a heavy trigger, the more fatigue you’re going to experience.

      Victor


    • Yeah, my ex-wife was cruel. Whatever she could do to hurt me without leaving a mark she did. She knew destroying my treasured Maadi would be a bruise on my soul. That was worse than selling mt Packard Clipper for $500. That was a sweet car. It was massive. Driving it was like driving on a cloud. But the Maadi….that really hurt.


  21. Haven’t read the 74 responses yet (pity I’ve obtained employment — I only get to this forum after getting home from work now, rather than some unholy hour of the post midnight period)…

    How many oils were you planning to test… Off-hand my cabinets would supply: RWS chamber oil, RWS spring oil, Hoppes gun oil, 3-in-1, (since we are talking anti-oxidation, a water displacement compound may be a candidate, so…) WD-40, Break-Free with and without graphite (I’m presuming it still has Teflon), RemOil… And maybe some higher viscosity stuff? Kitchen canola/corn/peanut/olive/vegetable oil… or the extreme: Crisco shortening. Bathroom would give us baby oil and Vaseline Motor oil (multi-viscosity and single: 20/30/40 wt), and automatic transmission fluid.

    And then there is that messy field substitute — spit!
    .


  22. It will be interesting to see. I would think it would have to make a big difference to make it worth all the work of lubing them. Here’s another, Imperial Die Wax.

    Mike


  23. BB,As I understand it the smoothness of a projectile is a small part of it’s ballistic coefficient.Do you think that some lubes could help smooth the surface of some of the rough finished pellets and make them faster and maybe more consistent of velocity?If the velocity was more consistent then the accuracy would no doubt see a boost.As I see it trying to prove this effect would require other testing involving downrange cronies.Showing a velocity increase from lubing would be a first step.This effect wouldn’t have a chance to show up with a crony at the muzzle.What thinks you?-Tin Can Man-


    • Tin Can Man,

      I have zero experience with lubricated pellets, but my concern is that because of their relatively light weight, they may add a bit too much drag. On the other hand, practice, experimentation, and experience can result in a “correct”, or “best” way to do this (or at a minimum, point us in the right direction). Experience tells me that I need to keep an open mind about this, and so many other topics, because in the rim-fire world, every small-bore (.22 caliber rim-fire) world class championship that I know of was won using ammo (e.g., Eley Tenex) that IS lubricated with Bees-Wax. In fact, it’s been demonstrated that a barrel sufficiently primed with Eley ammo will make non-lubricated ammo shoot significantly better. Why would I assume that this type of benefit can’t be achieved with air-gun pellets? Not every ammo manufacturer uses Beeswax, but you won’t see their ammo on the firing line of any Olympics.

      We’ve have discussions about lubricating pellets here, but never a whole blog. I can’t imagine myself being able to design, or outline, a series of tests as well (or as intelligently) as B.B. can. So this is one blog series that I am very eager to learn from. Being that there has already been some amount of discussion about this topic, but nothing conclusive (to me at least), and knowing what lubrication does for sub-sonic rim-fire ammo (i.e., is what is used to make the best), this topic will add to the many highly intelligent and interesting blogs that we’ve had the pleasure to experience here through B.B.

      Since I’ve never tried lubricating pellets, my personal suspicion is nothing more than an assumption. Again, this is why THIS blog is so interesting to so many of us. I also appreciate the mature tone and respect displayed here, which is also why I don’t care to read other blogs.

      Victor


    • Tin Can Man,

      I don’t know. On one hand, golf balls sail farther when they have dimples breaking up their surface. But bullets are smooth.

      I just don’t know. You are asking me to test the comparative velocity downrange?

      B.B.


      • BB,It seems that this possible result of lube could not be observed any other way.However,too many things can not be tested for at one time.Controls have to be put in place.I understand this and the fact that you are only one man.This related idea is something I have always wondered about and might be something to consider if lubes show other positive results.-Tin Can Man-


  24. B.B.,

    Wow! Interest in this topic has exploded! Over 90 posts, it isn’t even a weekend blog! Can’t wait for subsequent blogs on this subject. We’ve talked about this subject, but barely enough for me to grasp the how’s, why’s, and what’s (e.g., quantitative results). I was kind of left on the fence, but not convinced enough to be motivated to actually try it. Another very interesting and intelligent topic of discussion! Thanks!

    Victor



    • James Racho,

      I can’t answer that question (and I’m not trying to answer for B.B.), but it is a good and valid one, I think. I personally am not convinced that lubricating pellets will add to velocity, nor to accuracy. I just don’t know because, I’ve never tested this myself. In fact, my suspicion is that the wrong lubricant (assuming there is such a thing as “the right one”) will both hurt velocity and accuracy, and especially something as light as an Allow Pellet. Heck, it may be the case that Alloy Pellets benefit the most from lubrication because, for example, this might bring the velocity down a bit! Finding out is what makes these blogs so interesting and fun. I can’t wait to learn more, because that might give us (me) some ideas as to what should be tried.

      Something that’s been pointed out already is that some like to lubricate after they’ve cleaned their pellets. Lots of pellet tins contain shavings that work their way onto, and into the pellet. Those shavings will certainly affect accuracy. Think about those small weight that are used to balance tires. Relatively speaking, they are tiny, just like lead shavings found in pellet tins. I don’t think that Alloy Pellets have this problem. So your question, I think, is strictly with regards to performance (velocity and/or accuracy.

      Victor


    • James,

      That is a very good question. I have never heard of anyone oiling alloy (lead-free) pellets, but honestly, I don’t know if they should be or not. It’s something I ought to look into.

      B.B.


      • I just wondered since lead pellets would cause very little ware on a steel barrel, alloy pellets may cause premature ware on your barrel if not oiled/lubed


  25. Greetings from N.Z to you all. I’m a great believer in using graphite for lubricating piston seals and inside barrels.Can anyone remember Grandma polishing her cast-iron coal/woodburning cooking range with a graphite compound and how smooth and shiny it looked and felt?If you haven’t got any graphite handy just scrape the tip of a pencil and rub that between thumb and finger.Powdered graphite is microscopely fine and will fill all the fine surface scratches that can cause friction,once it has done that it will not build up and restrict the bore of either the power cilinder or the barrel,liquid lubricants will eventually fill the grooves of the rifling unless cleaned at intervals,but that is some burden we don’t want!!!.That black stuff being washed of the pellets was graphite powder put on by the manufacturer,but it made your fingers black so it had to go and how were those pellets washed? shaken in a jar with solvent what a distortion. Pellets already have a bad life travelling from the factory to the rifle breech Olympic matchpellets are packed individually for that reason,handle with care dont have loose ones rolling around in your pockets.Some clever Dicky should invent a pellet applicator with seating probe along the lines of a percussiun cap holder/applicator,there willbe a worldwide market waiting. I’m too old and still far to busy to answer this challenge.Regards Jeff


    • If you are going to use graphite, I’d recommend avoiding normal pencil lead. Common pencil lead is a mix of graphite and /clay/ (the clay is the main control of pencil “hardness”). Using a pure-graphite 9B artist’s pencil, OTOH…

      However, I wouldn’t favor any form of graphite for /seals/. You’re talking about using a low-friction compound which could be blown out by air pressure — it doesn’t /fill/ gaps, unlike a higher viscosity liquid with compatible adherence (wetting) properties.


  26. Hi BB

    I use Krytech Wax Lubricant(the one without the Telfon) with my Diana Panther 34 (.177cal) and I have not noticed any dieseling.(I wash the pellets with Dishwashing Liquid or sudds, as Americans would call it,before I lube the pellets.)

    I does seem that the Krytech works in keeping my barrel cleaner than before I started using it.

    After I lube my pellets,I let them sun dry.(I like the fact that Krytech is a dry type lubricant that isn’t wet or sticky.)

    Cougar94


  27. This Oil test is going to have good and bad results, when it comes to air,air travels best on smooth hard surfaces,example I remember back in my hot rod days guys would buy aluminum intakes for their engines,and have all the ports polihed smooth like glass(top of intake were carburator bolts up,and each port where cylyder head meets.) just so it can gain 5 to 10 more horse power.But its possible that it may help some,but I dont think BB has enough time or enough of rifles to test.


  28. Hi Gang …

    It must be Friday night, doncha know, as the discussion goe from shooting bugs with salt to raising cats and shredding toilet paper. Maybe my request isn’t as far off topic as I first thought.

    I had a visit yesterday from one of the absolutely nicest teenagers I have ever met. He came over to show me the used airsoft rifle that he had purchased. It is a replica of the bolt action Mauser Kar98. It is made by Boyi D-boys or at least sold under that name. None of this is really essential to the issue as this is a fix-it question, but I learned how to write blog entries from BB, Victor, John, Wulfraed and Matt61 … each of whom, I think, gets paid by the word.

    The bolt makes up the cocking mechanism so closing the bolt sets the trigger, compresses the spring and thus makes the air pressure. However, whoever it was who made this thing decided to cast all of the individual metal working parts of the safety, trigger, etc from this awful soft zinc pot metal or whatever it is. My little buddy’s rifle has a few miles on it and some of the pieces in the safety mechanism are warn to the point where they sometimes function and sometimes don’t. It is mostly that edges have been worn away. You might say that the tip has been worn away on TAB A and the edge has been worn away on the corresponding SLOT B. There is now so much slop that it only functions part time. To buy a new bolt would cost more than he paid for the whole rifle and make his total cost more than a new one. So, a fix is in order.

    My thought is to do some micro-gluing with the old stand-by JB-Weld. I would like to try to rebuild the missing edges and the end of the tab by applying JB-Weld with a toothpick in very small amounts and just building those area’s up a little bit. I am looking for a better, tighter fit with no slop. I think we are talking about 1/32″ buildup at the most, after sanding and filing to put the edge back on.

    Has anyone ever tried a project like this? In the past I have only used JB-Weld in the role of an adhesive, but some people claim to have cracks in a crankcase with the stuff. Do you think that the result would be worth the effort?

    I absolutely love working under a magnifying lamp. I go nuts over butt welding 22 gauge stainless sheet. I like that micro stuff. And, I can’t get the picture out of my mind of BB’s friend welding up each individual corrosion pock mark on that pistol frame with an OA torch. That is the kind of work that I really like. (BB … I still what to know what kind of equipment he used … filler rod and model of torch, for sure.)

    So, the question is basically how do I fix those softish pot metal parts? Any suggestions?

    (Edith … Re: Feline TP Shredder … Have you considered closing the bathroom door at night?)

    NRS


    • NRS,

      Yes, it has been done, and successfully. But it was done with weld, not epoxy. However the method you mention was the one used to fix the sheared hammer of my Nelson Lewis combination gun.

      It wiil work just as you have stated, but you can expect the repair to wear just like the original parts did.
      B.B.


      • Hi BB …

        Can you think of anything that I could mix in with the epoxy that would reduce the wear? What do you think would happen if I mixed some graphite powder in it?

        This morning I started to get ready by slicing some popsicle sticks down the center and I glued 2 inches of sandpaper to both sides of one end. I used 600, 800, 1000 and 2000 grit. Later today I will mix up some epoxy samples and see what happens when I sand them. I will do one sample and try adding the graphite just for the fun of it. I’ll let you know how it goes.

        While I am at it, does anyone else have any ideas of what else I could add to the epoxy to keep it from wearing? It seems to work with oil impregnated nylon. What do you all think about trying to make some walnut shell or almond shell powder and putting that into the epoxy?

        And, while I am thinking about it, what do you think is the down side to trying this on the actual parts. The worst that can happen is that I have to sand or grind all of the epoxy off and try something else, right?


        • NRS,

          Try the product called Plastic Steel. It has some metal powder mixed in, I think. I wouldn’t mix graphite in as it wouldn’t increase the wearability, I don’t think.

          B.B.


    • NRS,

      We can’t close the doors…even if we’re in the room :-)

      No matter which house we’ve lived in over the past 30 years of marriage, a closed door is an invitation to meow endlessly because they just KNOW a secret room exists (and they’re being deprived of seeing it). It could be the door to a magical kingdom (e.g., Narnia) not known before. We open closet doors, cabinet doors, etc., all over our home because our cats just don’t seem to be able to stand it if something can be opened and they’re not allowed to check it out.

      It’s not just this bunch of cats, either. All the cats we’ve owned have been that way. After all, they’re very curious critters.

      Edith


      • Edith …

        Being as how I am really a dog person, it would seem only natural to me to just close the door. A dog would see the closed door and think, “Oh,Nuts. It looks like I will try to wait until tomorrow.”

        However, in the interest of rebounding with some usable suggestions, I called a good friend up in Wisconsin who, since retirement, has joined his wife in providing a loving home for homeless cats. At last count, they had 14. He did mention that the doctor bills for their cats were twice what they were for his children, so, he is looking for low deductible cat insurance.

        I asked him what he would recommend for a Texas cat who insisted on shredding the TP during the night. David suggested that you might try one of three things. First, close the door. But, he said he had little to no experience with Texas cats, only Wisconsin cats, and Wisconsin cats are not naturally destructive. He said he though a good solid diet of beer and cheese bratwurst somehow modified their behavior. Second, he said, leave the light on. Since the cat tends to be on his worst behavior at night, try to convince him that it is daytime. Thirdly, David suggested that you might try hanging the TP on a rope dangling from the light fixture in the ceiling … just like he did. He said, “It works most of the time”. Still, he thought that the best thing a person could do was to wait until the cat was in the bathroom and busy shredding the TP, and THEN close the door.

        Thank You, David.

        NRS


        • NRS,

          The purpose of playing the TP bongo at night is to get someone out of bed. If the TP bongo doesn’t do the trick, then go up to a sleeping person’s ear and wrangle the best meow you can and let ‘er rip! Generally, this results in someone getting up, giving 2 of the cats treats (where one goes, the other follows…the third doesn’t like treats) and then staggering back to bed and leaving the confetti cleanup for the morning. I can’t sleep thru the TP bongo but I can resist getting out of bed until Tom wakes up and gets the treats.

          I think the cat has trained us very well :-) Play the TP bongo whenever you want a treat. Someone will eventually get up and treat us. When Tom is out of town (or during the time he was ill), the TP bongo cat usually takes a break from his solos. This has worked out well for me when I’m home alone & don’t want to walk to the kitchen to dole out treats in the middle of the night.

          BTW, we keep the light above the stove on during the night. If we didn’t, then our other male cat, Roy Rogers, would eat the bongo player. Roy is already on Prosac to stop him from picking fights. He was a wonderful cat til we adopted the bongo player. Then, he bacame unmanageable. We used to keep the LR light on all night, too, but found that (for the most part) Roy will resist killing & eating the bongo player if only the stove light is on.

          I know this sounds like the theater of the absurd, but that’s how we do things around here. Crazy people, crazy cats, crazy life. My world. Welcome to it.

          Edith


          • What!!?? Drugging cats?!!! what is the world becoming? Hell? Man and cat must be freeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!
            Have you ever seen the movie born free? “Born free as free as the wind blows born free as free as the wind-”


            • me,

              It’s either a small dose of Prosac 3x a day, or we endure cat fights all day & all night…which is what we did for quite some time because I’m anti-drug treatment. Before going the Prosac route, I tried all sorts of natural products, sprays, plug-in atomizers that constantly sent cat-calming pheromones into the air (one in each room), herbal water & food additives, and more. Nothing worked.

              When you’re sleep-deprived because the cats are being constantly attacked (and I had to spend my nights on the sofa so I could quickly intervene when the attacks happened), the option of small doses of Prosac don’t seem that bad.

              All our cats purr a lot and are happy. They still climb, run from room to room like crazed zombies are after them, chase each other, and love to snuggle & cuddle with us. Sounds pretty perfect to me.

              Edith


              • Edith…

                The cat fights stopped when I lost a couple of them. I only have Ozzy and Bootsie now. They behave pretty well most of the time.

                But then there is the problem of Bootsie bugging me when I am trying to sleep or do anything else. He wants to be in on everything. He also wants affection and wants to show his affection all the time.
                Every time I am almost asleep, there is the heavy cat landing on the bed. Then the tickling whiskers and cold nose on my face. Then the toenails (he won’t keep them to himself). Then he wants to get under the blanket with me. Then the slurping starts. And more toenails. This happens several times every night.

                twotalon


                • TT,

                  All our cats are indoor babies, only.

                  The cat on Prosac loves to sleep under the covers with me. He sleeps on my right side. The cat he wants to attack likes to sleep curled up in my arm on my left side on top of the covers. This sometimes happens simultaneously. Usually, they take turns. In the morning, the little female…who doesn’t like to sleep in bed with us, walks on the bed and paws at lumps to see if there’s a cat keeping me in bed. The cats immediately get up and leave. Then, she stares at me as if to say, “Okay. They’re gone. Now get out of bed and feed me!” Quite honestly, you’ve got it pretty good if a few toenails and some slurping are all you have to bother you! I don’t know what you’re complaining about :-)

                  Edith


              • This is why it’s called the tumultuous sea of liberty. Instead of brain poison, which by the way contains sodium fluoride that only has legal use as rat poison, cuddle him like a baby and give him all the love he misses. Make him the focus of your positive attention until they have stable peace. Make the peace. Be the peace.


  29. Hi NRS,Trying to build up the worn parts with a glue or two-pot compounds will only work for a short time as it will break off.One way would be to build-up the parts with a low temperature aluminium welding rod (these are almost pure zinc so would be compatable with your pot- metal base.Could be tricky on small parts but I have done it,no problem.There is also a micro welding process that fuses or build-up meals under very controlled conditions, but is not cheap.Another way could be replacing the worn parts with silversteel components, these can be hardened,or make up insertsfrom the same material to replace the worn edges.these should be shaped and fitted tightly,possibly with pins or rivets.Old-time gunsmiths were masters in this sort of repairs from what I’ve seen over the years.It’s a pity that we’re so far apart I would gladly have done that job for your young mate, anything to keep the young generation shooting. As far as lubricating pellets with pure graphite(no pencil scrapings,this was only brought up to demonsrate the smoothness of graphite,I stand corrected!!) use a make-up powder application brush(very soft haired) and coat with graphite powder.Then gently brush half a tin of pellets in the lid and half in the bottom.No mess!!,but dont sneak the brush back in the wife or girlfriend make-up kit,that willcause big trouble(would be fun to see that chimnysweep face!!! sorry Edith) Regards from Auckland NZ Jeff


    • You guys with rare and valuable old firearms are really an inspiration for me. Maybe now would be a good time in my life to see if I can find a way to learn some of those old skills. They do fascinate me.

      At one time my next door neighbor worked for a “sintered products” manufacturing company. As I remember, sintered parts are produced by compressing powdered metal under heat and pressure. At one time the tiny internal parts for juke boxes, slot machines, typewriters, sewing machines, etc. were made this way and the resistance to wear and ability to hold tolerances was the attraction. The worn parts on this rifle should have been made this same way … or could have been anyway and they wouldn’t wear much at all.

      The shame of it all is that the entire rifle, when new, is sold all over the Internet for $125. It sure would not take much time at all to invest that much or more in labor alone trying to keep one going. It’s no wonder that stuff gets used a little and thrown away. By the way, there is absolutely nowhere to buy replacement parts. Two hours of Googleing turned up zip.

      I think I am going to go ahead and try to find a way to build up these edges. If I wreck it, I’ll just get him another gun that is made to last.



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