by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier
Daisy’s new Powerline model 35 multi-pump air rifle is designed for youth. It’s a smoothbore with several interesting features.
I’m retesting an airgun that I tested over a year ago. One of our readers called Daisy and said he was getting much better accuracy from his Daisy model 35 multi-pump air rifle than I had gotten in my test, and he asked Daisy if they would look into it. Well, they read the accuracy report (Part 3) and agreed with him that I should have gotten better accuracy than I did. So Joe Murfin, Daisy’s vice president of marketing, called and asked if I would be open to a retest.
Joe told me that Daisy engineers were getting groups of about 1.25 inches to 1.5 inches at 10 meters. I’m sure he meant 5-shot groups, and of course I shoot 10-shot groups; still, his groups were significantly smaller than what I’d gotten from the last gun. My 10-shot groups were in the 2.5-inch to 3-inch range.
I don’t like to retest
Normally, retesting airguns leaves me cold. My philosophy is that I test what users get, and it’s whatever it is. I look at the gun the same way a user would, except that I may know a few more things than the average user and am able to do things most people wouldn’t think to do. That gives the gun a fair test and also educates people who may learn a new trick or two by reading what I’ve done.
I have to admit that over the past year I’ve learned a lot about accuracy with diabolo pellets and the things to look for. More recently, I have become aware of the tremendous accuracy potential of some smoothbore airguns. From that standpoint, a retest of this smoothbore airgun is warranted.
This is not life-saving equipment, and the outcome isn’t that important in the grand scheme of things; but wouldn’t it be nice to know if this $35 airgun is really better than we initially thought? I agreed to retest the gun, and Joe sent one directly from Daisy. Instead of the black stock I had last time, this new gun is finished in camo. Other than that, though, it’s identical to the gun I tested before.
Upon reviewing the last accuracy test, I see I used the 7.9-grain Crosman Premier pellet, RWS Hobby pellet and some vintage Daisy Superior Match Grade pellets I had laying around. At the time, that sounded like a good idea; but after spending more time with the Diana 25 smoothbore in recent months, I think there are some other pellets I ought to try — namely the JSB Exact RS pellet and the RWS Superdome.
In the last report on the model 35, I wasn’t specific about what number of pumps to use for each shot. There was nothing to go on for this test except my experience with other multi-pumps. I would only be shooting at 10 meters, and high velocity wasn’t necessary. Six pumps sounded good to me, and that’s what I used for every target. If this was a larger, more powerful multi-pump, I might have opted for 5 or even 4 pumps, but the Daisy 35 is pretty small, and 6 sounded about right.
First target revealed loading problems
I shot the first target with JSB Exact RS pellets. They did well for the most part, but 3 shots landed apart from the main group. I was having difficulty loading the gun, and I think I may have loaded several pellets backwards because of how easily they flipped around on their own in the loading trough. I was shooting in a dark place to overcome the fiberoptic open sights and was unable to see the breech when the pellet was loaded. Those 3 stray shots might be explained as loading errors. Before I move on, I should note that the size of this first 10-shot group is close to what Daisy told me to expect from 5 shots at 10 meters.
A well-centered group is ruined by three wild shots. They may have been pellets loaded backwards. Group measures 1.52 inches between centers.
Nothing to do but shoot another group with the RS pellets — making sure each pellet went into the breech the right way this time. I used a portable spotlight to shine on the breech during loading to see which way the pellets were oriented. I think Daisy could spend a little time fixing this problem because that loading trough is almost too small to work with.
The second group was much better. Ten more JSB Exact RS pellets went into 1.108 inches. This is better than what Daisy told me to expect, and my interest was piqued. How good would this gun get?
The second group of 10 JSB RS pellets went into 1.108 inches at 10 meters.
RWS Superdomes
The second pellet I tried was the RWS Superdome that so many people love. The first 10 pellets made a 1.119-inch group. It’s actually too close to the second group of RS pellets to see the difference, but that’s what the caliper read when I measured it. And these pellets hit the target in approximately the same place as the JSBs even though they’re heavier.
The first group of 10 RWS Superdome pellets went into 1.119 inches at 10 meters.
The second group of Superdomes wasn’t quite as tight as the first. One stray pellet that I hesitate to call a flier landed below the main group, opening it up to 1.243 inches. But that’s still the best that Daisy said to expect from this gun!
The second group of 10 RWS Superdome pellets went into 1.1243 inches at 10 meters.
But wait —
Well — there you have 4 groups that are all significantly better than any of the groups I got in the last test. The Daisy model 35 can shoot after all — just like our reader said. I wondered if there was any more accuracy beyond what the gun had already delivered. So, I fired a fifth group, this time with JSB RS pellets. Instead of 6 pumps per shot, I gave it the full 10 pumps for each shot. This time, they all landed in 0.76 inches, or as close to three-quarters of an inch as it’s possible to get.
Ten pumps tightened each shot to deliver almost a three-quarter-inch group. JSB RS pellets, again.
Obviously, using the right pellets made all the difference in the world. That’s a lesson I’ll try not to forget. Even an inexpensive airgun like the Daisy 35 deserves a fair chance to perform its best.
What’s next?
I would love to press the 35 into service as a dart gun, but the tiny breech prevents the loading of darts. I may be able to load them through the muzzle, but you’ll have to wait to find out because I seem to have misplaced my .177-caliber darts. But there’s still 25 yards to test, so you haven’t seen the last of this airgun.
Don’t remember B.B. ever revisiting/retesting and airgun.
Glad he did. Those are impressive groups for a $34.99 airgun. I can easily forgive the trigger and fiber optic sights now.
$34.99. This has got to be a best buy.
Gotta love those RS, Falcon and superdome pellets. They’re among the first I test in all lower velocity airguns.
kevin
Kevin,
Yes!
You know, I sometimes get grief from people who say I should use other pellets for testing. That’s why I used what I did to test the 35 the first time around. But I should remember this lesson and always use at least one tried-and-true performer whenever I test anything.
B.B.
Wasn’t last weeks Daisy/Avanti 499 a re-test?
So BB do you think the first one you tested was indeed a lemon or did Daisy improve the model from the last one (or are camo painted guns more accurate than black ones 😉 LOL )
J-F
J-F,
No, the 499 test was NOT a retest. It was a test of the gun at 10 meters because a reader asked me to test it at that distance. Since we had been looking at smoothbore performance recently, I thought it was a good idea.
You just inspired Friday’s blog, which will be about what motivates me to test certain things. Thank you! 😉
B.B.
Hey you know me right, always happy to help out (even when I don’t know what I did do to help 😉 ).
But doesn’t this open the door to request to other retests? Sometimes you get lemons, sometimes we’re the ones getting a lemon (my Daisy 25 shoots nowhere near what yours did) but you could also happen to get a better one, it happens too.
So should you start getting 2 or 3 rifles to test with sequential serial numbers and average them out or show us the worst and best a rifle can do? How long would that take and how expensive would it be? That would be pulling 3 rifles from inventory, 3 rifles that aren’t new anymore and can’t be sold as such, 3 rifles to ship both ways… it makes no sense.
J-F
J-F
Hopefully with all the parts from the same production runs ? Could go either way on that one.
twotalon
J-F,
Are you pushing your tongue into your cheek when you say all that? 😉
B.B.
Maybe a little (OK a lot) 😉
I know and understand it’s impossible to do logistically, financially and time wise (not to mention very boring for the poor tester) for you as well as for PA and I’m not asking you or PA to test things out that way but it IS what should be done to remove as much variables as possible from testing.
Just like you did when you switched from 5 to 10 shots groups (only difference being that it was doable 😉 ).
J-F
B.B.,
Your test of the 499 at 10 meters provided me with a LOT of answers to questions that had been buzzing around my brain regarding BB rifles and accuracy.
I sometimes plink at empty soda cans in my backyard from a distance of roughly 40 feet. I typically use my modern Red Ryder or Model 25 to provide the satisfying piercing of the target. My Avanti 499 merely dents them at that distance. But when the weather warms up, I think I’ll use the 499 to plink at something else, perhaps paper cups tacked down to a 2×4.
Thanks again for that 499 test.
Michael
Michael,
You are welcome. I also learned a lot from that test and I was glad to do it.
B.B.
Michael,
Don’t use a 2 x 4 as your target stand. Consider a stiff piece of foam. Cut a trough in the top and set animal crackers in it.
kevin
Michael,
The reason I suggest something other than a 2 x 4 is to avoid the potential of BB’s bouncing back at you.
kevin
Kevin,
You are correct, of course. BBs are little ricochet devils.
I have set up a small target array in front of the berm at the rear of our backyard using 2x4s on which I’ve attached several layers of foam pipe insulation. The pipe insulation, opened wide over the 2×4, works really well as it extends above the board by a good quarter inch. That’s enough to swallow / stop a BB but not so much that it interferes with my shooting the target tacked down behind the foam. Every spring I throw out the foam that is loaded up with BBs and pellets and might not prevent a ricochet anymore.
Michael
Michael,
You’re a smart man. Pipe insulation is a good idea.
Drill some small holes in the top of your 2 x 4 a put some suckers on sticks in them. They’re great fun to shoot at since they blow up nicely. Cheap reactive targets.
kevin
good morning to all. A few blogs back someone wrote in the comments that they discovered that they were getting excellent groups with JSB RS 13.4gr in their .22 HW77, further on another said that they also found the same with their .22 HW35. Now being a proud owner of the later i wanted something a bit tighter than i could get with Premiers, but i could not find anywhere selling the RS pellets.
However i do remember a blog from a while back on how a lot of pellets are made by one company and have other names put on them, so you could buy the same pellet under several different brand names. What i did find was that Falcon Domed pellets where the same weight and was wondering if they where JSB RS under that name or a completely different pellet.
I know this comment isn’t about the Daisy, but with all the blogs and comments on accuracy lately i was kind of hoping if any of you splendid people could help me out with your experience and knowledge on pellets and the HW35. Thanking you all kindly from the hallowed halls of Tetlington manor.
TTFN
Best Wishes, Wing Commander Sir Nigel Tetlington-Smythe
Sir Nigel,
When I asked Air Arms about this, they replied that they own the die that’s used to make their pellets. So, although the Falcon looks like the JSB RS, it’s really a different pellet. Since the weight of the pellets are the same it probably starts out with the same lead preforms, but since the die is different the result is a slightly different pellet.
But in most cases, the Falcon performs as well as the RS. I have seen it depart from that, too, so it isn’t always a certainty.
B.B.
Sir Nigel,
It was I who remarked about the 14.3 JSB’s in my 35e. However, I looked and they are in fact Falcons. I assumed they were the same but according to B.B,’s comment apparently not. My mistake and apologies.
I find the Falcons to be very accurate out to about 20 yards which is all the inside range I have. I have not ventured out of doors where I can shoot further. Mostly because of weather.
HTH,
Mark N
Thanks B.B. and thank you Mark. It is just as well that i ordered a tin of falcons then, i shall be looking forward to seeing how they perform in my .22 HW35 and being lighter will have a slightly flatter trajectory, i have also been looking for some heavier .177 pellets for my AA Shamal so both rifles will have similar trajectories as i use both for hunting at sub 12ft/lb. I tend to find Air arms and H&N both get the best results in all but my pre 80’s .22 BSA air rifles as a rule of thumb, Eley Wasp No2’s at 5.6mm work a treat in all old Beezer’s . Have a good day comrades in air arms, and good shooting.
TTFN
With warmest thanks, Wing Commander Sir Nigel Tetlington -Smythe
good groups from a cheap gun. I have a Daisy Grizzle that shoots really well…and that is with BB’s. It is a single pump that will out shoot any of my BB guns.
Bradly,
I just answered your other question about the Daisy 853 and 717/747 pistols (on another report). Welcome to the blog!
B.B.
BB,
I just bought a 25 caliber BSA Supersport from Randy Mitchell. I did a search for 25 caliber Supersport on Google and found a Part 1 article on a 25 Caliber Supersport you did in March or April of 2011 here on the blog. In searching on both Google and the blog here I cannot find any more parts to the article. Do you remember if you stopped the test after Part 1 or do I need to keep searching for more parts to the article?
Thanks,
David Enoch
David,
I vaguely remember doing that report. For some reason the gun had to be sent back to Pyramyd AIR. I don’t remember the reason.
I’m sorry but that’s all there is.
B.B.
David,
I just remembered why the rifle went back. It was only getting velocities in the 400s. Then I think they decided to drop them from inventory, so I didn’t reorder another one to test.
B.B.
David, I have a BSA Supersport in .25 and mine which was bought from PA at the same time BB did his test, and was one serial number before or after his. I don’t remember which. Anyhow, I posted some comments about mine on his blog about the Supersport in .25. I now have about 2000 pellets through mine and have worn out my old Tasco 4X OA scope on the gun, and now I’m using just the open sights it came with. I have had the good accuracy in mine with the JSB Exact Kings 25.4 grs, and the very best accuracy is with H&N FTT 20.06 gr . It’s about a 14ft/lb gun and the pellets I mentioned load hard. Because of this, I made a tool from a hardwood cabinet knob and a polished SS 10×24 acorn nut. The acorn nut is treaded onto a 10×24 machine screw and then the head is cut off, and that is then screwed into the knob. I press the pellets into the breech with this tool, otherwise the skirts get torn when the gun is closed. I have also used the BSA plyarms pellets, the Rhinos, and H&N wadcutters . They all gave only mediocre accuracy in my example. I have also shot a number of eastern grey squirrels with mine ,and I have found that all the pellets (I used H&N FTT only) stayed inside the animal 90% of the time. All were one shot kills as well , and the pellets showed hardly any distortion upon retrevial from the squirrels. Ranges were from 10-30 yards, and it is a good one to use if over penetration of the target is not wanted . Hope this helps you.
B.B.,
I’m glad you decided to revisit this airgun. I guess that it goes to show that sometimes you get a lemon that isn’t a fair representation of the product.
I know that as a rule you don’t like to retest airguns, but I have noticed from time to time that some guns were declared lemons and the testing went no further. The test on the R7 comes to mind (a pity really; my new R7 shoots like a dream; I doubt that the one in the test was a fair representation of what the gun can really do). Other tests were, for whatever reason, simply not finished, as in the case of the of the Norica Massimo. Is there any chance you will want to retest a few more guns in light of your positive experience with the retest of the Daisy 35?
Lee,
This is exactly why I don’t retest guns. I spent a LOT of time with that R7, trying to get it to shoot. But it never did.
From that mess I decided to report each and every test I did in the Hatsan series — so everybody could peek behind the curtain and see that I wasn’t just sloughing the guns off.
The R7 did not perform, and I rated it the way I saw it. If a customer had received that gun if would have done the same for him.
I know it must be hard to watch a favorite like the R7 get slammed in a test, and then see me turn around on a cheap gun like this model 35. But like I said, I only agreed to retest this gun because of what I have recently learned about shooting smoothbores.
And those Norica gun! Nothing I did could get them to shoot like they looked. That’s another reason why I tested the Hatsans so thoroughly in print. I did test the Noricas more than you ever read about — I just didn’t show all the poor groups.
Look at the extra time I put in on the Cometa guns more recently. Like the Hatsans, I kept right on testing until it was obvious that the .177 was good and the .22 wasn’t.
B.B.
Lee A.
No matter what kind of gun you get, you could get a good one, a bad one, or something in between.
Let’s say that a a gun is potentially good with the right parts (meeting spec). All it takes is a bad production run on one kind of part (does not get caught) to get a whole bunch of guns cranked out that suck. It also matters if the specs are tight enough, or if they are just too sloppy.
Spot checks in the process may allow some of the parts to get pretty bad before someone says that something is getting too far out of tolerance.
Clearly, B.B. does not have the time to test 10 of each model picked at random over a year’s time to get an idea what is “typical” for each model.
twotalon
TT,
Thanks for understanding.
B.B.
BB,
A springer question. You have tested both TX200 and a LGV and found them very accurate. They are heavier than most. Does the extra weight play a role?
TC,
The extra weight does make those rifles easier to hold steady, but there are a tremendous number of heavy spring rifles that are not as nice as these two. So weight, by itself, is not enough. The gun must also be designed right and well-made.
B.B.
OK another dumb thought came into my head, and my internal filter is failing so here it comes….Would it be worth making a “rifled” pellet? Like rifled shotgun shells that are shot out of smoothbores? I realize that would probably require us to ditch the diabolo design and that could affect stabilization? Dunno, the thought crossed my mind and it typed it here. Same reason I get in trouble with the wife sometimes, no filter on stupid thoughts!!….. 🙂
Rifled slugs do not spin. The rifling only serves two purposes that I can think of…
It makes it easier to shoot the slug through a choke without stretching the choke out (less lead to compress.
And it sells slugs.
The bore and projectile must interlock in order to rotate the projectile. There is no structure in a shotgun bore to allow this, unless you are talking about a Hastings rifled barrel or one of the deer guns made with a rifled barrel in the first place. Those are essentially a 12 guage rifle.
twotalon
Just googled that based on your answer. Well, you learn something everyday!! OK, another dumb thought, what about helping spin AFTER it leaves the barrel? Maybe some slanted cuts or slits in the skirt of the pellet? Sort of like how an arrow gets spin?
Not gonna work either…
It would take too long for any rotation of a significant rate to pick up and do any good. It would hit the ground long before that.
An arrow with an offset or helical fletch has vanes that really stick out and catch the air. You can’t get this kind of connection to the air with slugs or pellets.
twotalon
Sigh…..what if I do a cartwheel as I shoot? 🙂
Can you cartwheel at 50,000 r.p.m. ?
twotalon
The Federal “Tru-Ball” slugs are probably the most accurate smooth bore slugs ever. The “Ball” in the base of the slug expands it to give a near perfect bore fir. Give them a try some time.
Mike
I don’t do shotgun deer hunting.
I have an old buddy who buys some of everything before each deer season . He tests them for accuracy, then goes back and buys more of the best. Different lot numbers each year can screw you.
Last time I talked to him, he found that the slick sided slugs that he found somewhere shot the best out of his shotgun. Don’t know what model he has, but his deer barrel is simply a straight through unchoked smooth bore with rifle sights.
twotalon
Though many shotgun barrels these days have interchangeable choke tubes — and companies make tubes with rifling just for use with slugs… Granted, hitting a three inch section of rifling at the end of the acceleration phase probably doesn’t provide the best spin up.
SE MN Airgunner,
It’s NOT a stupid idea! As you note, there are rifled slugs that have external rifling grooves on them.
Maybe I should do a blog about it. I just need to find the hook.
B.B.
OK, according to twotalon rifling a pellet won’t work, neither will slits. His logic sounds pretty darn sound to me. What about this? Lose the skirt as we know it and replace with 4 to 5 lead “fletches”? It would look like an miniature lawn dart? I know this discussion doesn’t solve our debt crisis, but it is still interesting to think about.
SE MN Airgunner,
You are inventing the “fin-stabilized” projectile. The M1 tank cannon uses one that is stabilized that way. And many ballistic missiles use fins for stabilization.
B.B.
Mini mortar round ? Probably have to be PBA just to keep the firing impulse from wrecking it.
Might give Gamo some more hype ideas. Gold plated pot metal with stabilizing fins for improved speed and accuracy.
Just joking here, I hope.
twotalon
How about a hollow pellet with an open passage connecting the hollow point to the indentation inside the skirting? Air could then pass axially through the pellet. Mold a couple vanes inside the passage at an angle to spin the pellet as the air passes through it.
If enough air could be introduced through the pellet head, the pellet should spin even if fired through a smooth bore barrel. And no external projections.
Les
Les,
I don’t think that one would work, at least not work well. When the gun fires the air-pressure needs to have something to press on to make the pellet move forward. If the pellet had a hole all the way through it, it seems to me that most/all the compressed air would go through the hole and the pellet wouldn’t get much, if any, forward movement.
J.
J.
You really have one basic problem with structure induced spin….
Where in the world is it going to be going before any spin stabilization can take place? It has to start from zero and work it’s way up from there.
twotalon
TT,
In this case I think there might be two problems, aside from the complexity. The one you’re talking about (that the pellet has to work up to a suitable spin rate) is going to be part of any pellet that relies on structure induced spin.
However if I’m correctly visualizing the pellet he’s describing, the second problem would be the compressed air having something to trap it for a sufficiently long time for it to act on. Basically it sounds a bit like the pellet he’s describing would basically be a hollow straw. The opening at the front (hollow-point) would be relatively large. The opening at the back (skirt) would be relatively large and have fletching inside it. Between the two would be a relatively narrow channel. So when the puff of compressed air hits the pellet, the air would go in the skirt, compress a bit more (which might get the pellet moving a bit), and then exit out the hollow-point. Which means the compressed air wouldn’t be acting on the pellet for long. So the velocity its fired at would be low or non-existant.
Then again I’m not a design engineer so what do I know. Maybe it would work better than I’m thinking.
J
J.
Me and my abbreviated answers…
Yeah, I considered that but did not mention it.
Let’s say that a wad or fall away device like a loose gas check were on the back of the pellet (hollow bullet ?)….
It would have to spin up from zero, and would be all over the place long before it could spin stabilize. If it was tumbling by then ( and probably would be), then it is not going to spin. Straight fins on the outside (at the back might work to some degree, but be easily susceptible to damage easily. No spin there…just like an arrow with straight fletch.
twotalon
Yeah. I was trying to think “outside the box”, but wound up thinking “outside the gun” as well. I hadn’t considered what would happen to the pellet while it was still inside the barrel.
I think the pellet would be fired from the barrel, because the air blast from the transfer port, even as it made its way through the pellet, would be constrained, resulting in higher pressure behind the pellet than in front of it. But the pellet would emerge with air flowing through it from back to front. This air flow would act on the internal vanes, imparting a spin inside the barrel.
As the pellet progressed beyond the gun, the air pressure in front of the pellet will exceed the pressure behind it. The air flow inside the pellet would reverse, halting the spin imparted inside the barrel and imparting a spin counter to the initial spin. Thus, you would not only have air flow inside the pellet changing directions, but the pellet itself reversing the direction of spin.
Sounds like a sure-fire way to produce a flier.
On the other hand, you might get enough boundary layer effect on the nose of the pellet to prevent air from entering it in flight. In which case, the initial spin from the rear-to-front air flow within the pellet might continue. In this case, you would at best get just a slightly more stable hollow-point, but only if the vanes were designed to rotate the pellet within the barrel in the same direction of spin as the rifling, if any.
Another consideration: If the air is flowing through the pellet front-to-rear, after it left the barrel, would that not destroy the low-pressure area inside the skirt that drag-stabilizes pellets?
Les
What good would external rifling grooves do since they are not engraving the projectile as it goes through the barrel? If they are supposed to work in flight, engraving the air seems effective in proportion to how air is less dense than lead.
Matt61
Matt,
I can see I will have to do a report on the APDS fin-stabilized projectile that travels at a mile/sec.
B.B.
I would really love to read that article if or when you find time for it, i could see many possibilities if it works. The only way to get spin in a smooth bore that i am aware of is the hop-up or BAX systems in air soft, but we’re talking low velocities on that one.
TTFN Wing Commander Sir Nigel Tetlington-Smythe
Sir Nigel,
I was a tanker in the army, and had some experience with fin-stabilized rounds. That round I refer to is so flat-shooting that there was just one range in Germany where it could be fired. If the elevation was off, it sailed over the backstop (a small mountain) and went into Czechoslovakia.
B.B.
Howdy Mr. B.B., Ms. Edith & the Gang! Great article. Have absolutely no interest in this gun, but do have an insatiable want for more a that there edumacation schtuff. The article + the comments from the Gang (25 at this point w/many more when they get their eyes open & second cup) is exactly the kind of info, all in one place, from those who’ve forgotten more about guns & shootin’ than I’ll ever know, that makes this blog such a gold mine. To each & every one of ya, THANX! Shoot/ride safe.
Beaz
Thorough testing vs. retesting. A lemon or a sweetie.
I’ve owned quite a few airguns. Primarily springers and pcp’s. I’ve owned multiple guns of the same model especially the classics like the HW35, HW30/R7, HW95/R9, HW50/R8, LG55’s, HW55’s, etc., etc.
I mention the above models in particular because these guns are well built german guns with great sights and no plastic. Nonetheless, you can get a bad one. One that won’t group.
There are many reasons for this in both new and used guns. In new springers an out of round compression tube or leaking compression tube can be the primary cause of wide velocity variations. A typical “tune” can’t fix this.
Although buying a high end model increases your odds of getting a good one out of the box it doesn’t guarantee it. Lower end guns made with lots of plastic and larger manufacturing tolerances lower your odds of getting a good one out of the box in my experience. I’m rambling….
Here’s my point. When you get an accurate gun keep it. The planets have lined up for you.
kevin
Kevin,
“When you get an accurate gun, keep it.”
The best advice I’ve heard in a long time. Yesterday I shot a couple of nice groups that I’ll share in Friday’s report.
Remember that, kids — keep the accurate guns.
B.B.
Tom,
Cost me a lot of time and gobs of money to learn that. I’m thick headed you know.
Looking forward to Friday. You’re such a tease.
kevin
How true. I made the mistake of selling a Remington 788 in .223 that shot consistent 1/4 inch groups. That was 15 years ago, no more mistakes like that!
Mike
Mike,
OH! I’m sick!
B.B.
Life goes on. I do now have a Savage Model 12 HB Stainless in .223 that is currently shooting in the 3/8 inch range. I think it can still be better with the right load.
Mike
Yeah, those 788’s were a sleeper . I have one in .222 and, it does what your .223 did. It’s never for sale either!
I will. Mine mine mine. I’m going to pick another one this weekend that someone made the mistake of letting go, and it will be mine forever.
Matt61
FredPRofNJ,
Scary stuff going on in your state. I think I would have Evan Nappen on speed dial if I lived there.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/19/fathers-day-sale-this-picture-of-my-son-holding-a-gun-triggered-a-visit-from-nj-police-family-services/
kevin
Indeed. When DFYS (Division of Family Youth Services) gets involved, it really invokes images of Nazi stormtroopers invading your house at 3 in the morning demanding papers and “you vill come vith us”. There is no doubt in my mind that the police would not have left the house had Mr. Moore not had an attorney on the phone. I’m surprised that DYFS did not remove Mr. Moore’s 11 year old for suspected child abuse. Thank goodness he had that type of relationship with the attorney that he had his personal number. Notice DFYS said the anonymous tipster cannot be prosecuted….
Fred DPRoNJ
Fred,
I’m sickened by what I’m seeing and hearing all around me since I can’t help but be reminded of Germany in the 1930’s.
Even after lengthy testimony and demonstrations Colorado is on the threshold of passing disturbing gun legislation. Never thought I would see that.
Too many liberal transplants are amongst us.
kevin
BB,
Very interesting results. Very interesting indeed. Makes me wonder how the Crosman 760 I got a couple weeks ago (?) is going to shoot at 33 feet. Now if I can get a day off when the weather’s decent and I don’t have something I have to do so I can get out and shoot… If the stars ever line up like that I’ll let you know how it does.
Also, sorry about the muzzle-loading comment. I didn’t mean to increase the work-load. I was just trying to figure out how to load a dart into a multi-pumper with a loading port barely long enough for a pellet because you said you wanted to test them.
J
J,
No problem. I will do the test if I can find my darts. Maybe I need to order some new ones from PA.
B.B.
Heh… And I’m still waiting for my parents to finish moving out (five months and counting since they signed the lease on the apartment)… So I can clear a lane in the basement of the house and set up a 10m airgun range INDOORS…
B.B.
I have to say that this has turned out to be more fun than the day you started the blog about corkscrewing pellets.
twotalon
TT,
When was that?
B.B.
B.B.
Been quite a while…maybe three years or so ago.
I remember telling you that I didn’t know if I should kiss you or kick your butt for bringing up the topic.
twotalon
TT,
You know, it’s funny. I was shooting an expensive PCP a couple weeks ago and I could see the pellets spiraling as they went downrange. But they were not all spiraling the same. Some looked like knuckleballs thrown by a major-league pitcher!
I suspected they were hitting the muzzle brake as they exited the muzzle and, sure enough, when we removed the brake from the gun it became quite accurate. It’s stiff like that that keeps me on my toes.
B.B.
B.B.
I have never had a “clipping problem”. But I did see a bunch of P.O.I. problems at different distances. Some pretty severe. Things like an offset scope , wind, or canting could not explain it. Then one day I was shooting far enough with enough magnification that I saw it. Corkscrew city.
I know how to spot it now without needing to watch a pellet fly. Just look at the targets.
A consistent corkscrew, or an intermittent corkscrew that trys to go to the same wrong place is a dead giveaway.
twotalon
B.B.,
Off-topic: Is the BSA Polaris essentially discontinued? It isn’t listed among the other BSA rifles on the P.A. site, but it does come up through the search engine, with an out-of-stock / back order designation.
Thanks very much,
Michael
Michael,
I’m not sure. Want me to look into it for you? Do you want to buy one?
B.B.
B.B.,
I might. I’m thinking of getting an under lever in .177. So I’m considering the usual suspects: TX200 MkIII in lefty (I’m left-handed), HW97 ambi stock, HW77 (used, probably), RWS 46 (used, obviously), or the BSA Polaris.
I am not a hunter, just a paper-puncher and plinker. I would like to try mini-sniping, too.
I know the BSA and the Diana 46 have lesser triggers than the others. Accuracy is very important to me. Cocking effort and weight are factors, but not paramount. The significantly lighter weight of the BSA appeals to me, as does the price tag. Of the three, I’m probably leaning away from the Diana 46, but the other four are tempting.
Michael
Michael,
I would concentrate on the TX200. The RWS 48 might also work. Some like the HW 97, I never have. The others are just too darned had to shoot accurately
B.B.
The TX200 is an all-time classic heirloom gun to be sure.
Thanks very much for your input,
Michael
I have two Diana 52’s (48’s with a better stock). One is a .177 and the other a .22. Both are great.
Mike
This rifle does the job at 10 meters by more or less landing in the same hole. But at about 7MOA, I’m not going to hold my breath for 25 yards.
Mike, wouldn’t relish you as an opponent for negotiating with your leader of .22LR ammo. 🙂 On the other hand, maybe I’m coming around to dealmaking with the used SW 686 that I plan on picking up this weekend. I’m going to open the cylinder, slide in my piece of white paper, than beam my tactical flashlight on the paper as I look down the muzzle. The poor man’s borescope. When I see that gorgeous mirror-bright bore, from the pistol manufactured in 2011, victory will be mine. I was a little surprised that the cylinder of this one holds 7 which was not my first choice. I preferred the traditional less spidery look of the 6 shot cylinder and misinterpreted the -6 model designation. But I’ve read extensively and the 7 shot does not have any weakness compared to the 6. The only other objection is that most competition do not allow 7 shots, so people have to load 6 and rotate the cylinder appropriately into firing position. I’m not expecting a big competition career anyway. Any other objections to the 7 shot cylinder you have heard of?
With the failure of the assault weapon ban, perhaps the gun and ammo buying craze will stop, and some of the rest of us can start getting ammo. With the failure of the national ban, I expect that most of the state initiatives will fade away too. Kevin, take heart. My prediction is that nothing will really change at all on the national level.
I’m getting to be fascinated with feral pigs, especially their intelligence. Some scientist said that if they had hands, they could probably drive. They are able to play video games by moving joysticks with their snouts. Other examples are their ability to send the lowest-ranking members of their herds to test out traps, sort of like the penal battalions of the Wermacht. Or their ability to climb on top of each other to escape traps or burrow under fences. It sounds like you will have to look hard to find any animal to outsmart your pig. Anyone have personal experience with this?
I have the solution to the pig overpopulation. Import a few tigers from India where they’re so hard-pressed. Put radio collars on them and set them loose among the feral pigs. You’ve got 24 hour hunters that need no resupply of any kind, and you’ll be conserving an endangered species. The tigers will go wild. When the problem is solved, you just swoop in on the tigers via their collars and transport them back where they came from.
Matt61
Unless they reproduce 😉
I’m not sure they would attack feral pigs when they can find much easier sources of food like cows.
J-F
You will love the 686 with the 7 round cylinder. That’s the same number of rounds that a standard 1911 magazine holds. HKS makes a 7 round speed loader for it.
Mike
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_22831085/colorado-gov-hickenlooper-signs-key-gun-control-bills
For the first time in my almost 55 years, I am ashamed of and embarrassed by and for my native state of Colorado. Following NYC’s lead like it’s a “good” thing…
/Dave
I’m sorry for you and Kevin.
I live in Nebraska, 30 miles from Colorado. Watching what has been going on there is like watching a train wreck.
At least you have a couple Sheriffs who refuse to go along with it.
I have more than a few friends who live in Colorado who are sickened by all this.
Les
Yes, sad indeed. I really liked Colorado…….almost moved there! Well, it can be turned around in the next election!
Mike
Draconian laws to make the uninformed hand wringers feel good.
Our pathetic excuse for a governor is a meat puppet and will hopefully be voted out of office. He needs to be impeached. There is a large segment of our population that is outraged. It’s impossible for me to understand the people that vote for these folks. Terrible day in history for Colorado and the Country.
kevin
Not bad for a cheap daisy. Might be a fair beginner gun but I prefer the Crosman 760 for starting beginners. I believe a rifled bore is a definite advantage and shows a bit more quality. Certainly shows a bit more work went into the barrel.
Most of the 760’s were smooth bore. The Daisy 880 with the rifled barrel, and the discontinued 22SG are some of the best guns for kids . Easier to pump up than the Crosmans. The 22Sg was a winner. Easy to pump , easy to load with no bb port . It’s most sad that Daisy doesn’t have a .22 cal air rifle anymore.
At this time I am using the mostly plastic M4-177 to train a yound shooter. I have discovered that with it’s adjustable stock it works great for a smaller shooter. I also like those military style sights. I replaced the ones that came with it with real military flip up sights. It made the gun more accurate in my opinion. I also like the gun with a dot sight as well.
My old 760 has a rifled barrel if I remember right.
The 760’s my grandchildren own are smooth-bores. My grandson’s M4-177 has a rifled barrel, but the sights needed some reworking before a straight shot could be aimed with them.
The Daisy 880 is a good gun, but in my opinion the discontinued 856 was much better. The pumping lever was the fore stock (like on the 760, but bigger for more leverage). This is also much easier on the hands than the narrow lever of the 880.
The later 856’s were pellet-only. This means there was no bb port for the pellets to fall into. The rammer on the bolt is plastic, because there is no need for it to be magnetic.
The 880 is a much more attractive gun. My friend has an old 856 that can shoot either bb’s or pellets.
It is covered with fancy gold scrollwork and is every bit as attractive as the 880. I offered him $40 for it, but, dang, he won’t part with it.
My scoped 856 is very accurate at 25 yards. My granddaughter outshot me with it!
Les
To each his own pleasure. It’s kind of like Microsoft Windows vs. Apple Macintosh. I agree that the M4-177 sights are a bit cheesy and have said so from when they first came out with them and they were the M417. I have 2 of them put up in the box thinking someday they might be worth something with the M417 label on them. For shooting I put actual M4 sights on the gun. I like it much better with the real sights. I can’t wait for the new crosman assault looking guns to come out. They will look great on my wall.
Desertdweller,
If you want a Daisy multi-pump where the pump handle is the forestock, take a look at the Daisy 901. It should be comparable to the Daisy 880 in power and has a rifled barrel like the 880. The only downside I can see is that it comes with fiber-optic sights…
J.
john,
I think the key word in the description of your 760 is old. No offense intended there, but the base model of the Crosman 760 was a smoothbore at least 10 years ago (when I bought my first one to replace my old Crosman 664 which had finally died and the crappy B3 I bought because I needed a new pellet gun).
I haven’t seen a rifled version of the 760 listed on Pyramid Air for probably 4 years. And even then it was the expensive pink version not the base model.
J.
You are right. My 760 I got when I was around 10 years old. It’s gone in for a few repairs over the years but it still works. For what it’s worth I’m sporting a head of grey hair now, so it was quite a long time ago I got the gun. I don’t normally get rid of my guns. There have been very few exceptions to that over the years. With the new(er) Crosman M1-177 my 760 is officially retired now as far as training new shooters. I keep it oiled and 2 pumps in it and have durocoated all the metal to preserve the gun. But hardly ever shoot the thing now. I have way too many guns and find I can’t possibly find time or opportunity to shoot most of them. So, My older childhood memories just sit there now. Only guns I have gotten rid of is the ones I simply hated or ones a friend of mine begged me to sell him until I finally did.
Well, after just under a year my Model 35 quite pumping up air pressure. I would guess I had fired it maybe 500-750 times or so, as it was a handy little air rifle and fun to shoot. I called a nice lady at Daisy and talked to her about it. I had bought it through Amazon.com, as it was freight free to Hawaii, and it seems like all the other sources charge a lot to ship here. She sent me a FedEx pick ticket, and it was shipped back to them. She said they will send me a new one. MY old one was capable of some fine accuracy with pellets at 10 yards benched if I did my job. I was having so much fun testing pellets when I found that a smooth bore CAN shoot one hole groups, that I hardly tried any BB’s through it.
We’ll see if my new one is as accurate as my old one. The tests will have to start all over again. Anyway, the lady at Daisy was super nice and helpful to me, and I was treated as a valued customer. Daisy has at least two air rifles I would be interested in buying, one being the model 953. I’ve wanted one for years now. I did use Pellgunoil on the Model 35, but did not store it with a pump or two of pressure. Maybe that contributed to the problem.
Tom, good reading since Airgun Letter! Got
me interested in smoothbores. Bought a Crosman 760. It shoots one little hole on
my 18 foot indoor, almost as good at 10 m
outdoors. Bought another to make sure it
wasn’t a fluke—just as good. They very much
prefer pointed pellets, RWS Superpoints or
Crossman pointed at 3 pumps. (2 or 6 not
as good). I think there’s a great potential for smoothbores with specially designed pellets, (pointed with longer skirt?) for 10m pistol?
What do you think?
Fido3030,
Welcome to the blog.
I’m sure there is more room for pellet design that will help the smoothbores even more.
B.B.