by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier
The Lightweight Disco Double in its new stock looks striking!
Today, we’ll look at the accuracy of the Disco Double. Before that, however, I mounted a scope, a TKO airgun silencer that they call a muzzlebrake or a lead dust collector, and something I’ve never seen in print before but something I’ve used on many precharged air rifles over the years — a bolt keeper!
What’s a bolt keeper?
First, let me tell you that when I mounted the TKO silencer, it fit the barrel perfectly. There were no barrel alignment issues that I was warned about, and I checked closely. This unit is very well made and looks beautiful on the gun. The unit I’m testing is 8-1/4 inches long; and, yes, Lloyd, I checked that it indeed is a .22 caliber before mounting it. However, when the silencer is on, the top end cap does not fit.
TKO silencer looks great on the rifle. The top plastic end cap doesn’t fit with the silencer installed.
When I shot the gun with it on the first time, I have to say I was underwhelmed. It was quite loud. A second shot confirmed this. Then, I held the rifle to my shoulder and fired a third shot. That’s when it hit me — a blast of air in the face not unlike the glaucoma test eye doctors do. The bolt was opening and discharging compressed air with each shot!
This happens a lot with precharged guns and it doesn’t matter how cheap or expensive they are. The bolt handle lifts up and air comes back through the action. On the lightweight Disco Double, it only begins to happen when the rifle is at the bottom of the power curve, which is where it was when I tested it this time.
A simple fix is to fasten a rubber band around the bolt handle to hold it closed during the shot — a bolt keeper. Once on the gun, I just leave it there. Even though it’s not needed until the end of the power curve on this rifle, I don’t want to worry about it. You can cock and load the rifle with the band in place.
A rubber band “bolt keeper” holds the bolt handle down when it wants to flip up on the shot.
With the handle held closed in this fashion, the rifle suddenly became very quiet — as in Benjamin Marauder quiet! I now understand why shooters have been so excited about this unit. It really works!
NOTE: Due to several reader questions about this silencer, I am removing it from the rifle and returning it to Lloyd. Silencers are a very touchy subject, since owning one that will function on a firearm requires a license for each specific silencer. I don’t want to mislead any reader, so in the interest of clarity I am simply not going to use or possess this item any longer. I wrote an article on silencers that can be accessed here. If you have any questions on the subject, I recommend you read that article.
The rifle now weighs 6 lbs., 11 oz. with everything installed. That’s very light for a serious air rifle.
Scope
I mounted a UTG True Hunter 3-9X40 scope on the rifle. Since UTG packs rings with this scope, I used them, but they’re Weaver-style mounts. So, I had to use a UTG Weaver to 11mm dovetail adapter to make them fit the dovetails on the rifle’s receiver.
I’ll be shooting from a rest at 25 yards today. The range is indoors, so wind is not an issue.
Crosman Premiers
Sight-in was accomplished with .22-caliber Crosman Premiers; so after I was on the paper, I shot the first group of 10 shots at 25 yards. The hole they made is a little taller than it is wide, but it measures 0.569 inches between centers. While that’s okay for 25 yards, it isn’t great. I’d like to see something a couple tenths smaller.
Premiers all went to the same place — more or less. At 0.569 inches between centers, the group could be smaller.
Beeman Kodiak
Next up were Beeman Kodiak pellets. They’re identical to the .22-caliber H&N Baracuda pellets that Lloyd tested the rifle with, and they were what I had available. They put 10 into 0.655 inches between centers. Like the Premiers, that’s not bad…but not as good as I’d hoped.
Beeman Kodiaks opened up more, to 0.655 inches between centers. Only use them if you need a heavy pellet.
JSB Exact RS
I followed the Kodiaks with some JSB Exact Jumbo RS pellets. They’re even lighter than the Crosman Premiers, and sometimes they can be very accurate in precharged rifles. This was one of those times. Ten pellets went into 0.365 inches, which is exactly what I’d hoped for the Disco Double. This is the pellet for this rifle!
The JSB Exact RS is obviously a great pellet in the Disco Double. Ten went into 0.365 inches at 25 yards.
RWS Superdome
Nex, I tried the RWS Superdome pellet that’s always recommended. I don’t often have good luck with them, but a lot of shooters do. I stopped after just 4 shots, though, and you can tell from the lateral spread that measures 0.634 inches between centers that they weren’t going to perform.
When the first 4 shots spread out like this, you might as well stop right there. RWS Superdomes went into 0.634 inches at 25 yards.
JSB Exact Jumbo
The last pellet I tested was the JSB Exact Jumbo. These are usually among the top pellets in .22-caliber precharged air rifles, so I felt they deserved a chance. The first 2 shots were on a fresh 2,000 psi fill, and I’m not sure the rifle wasn’t overfilled by a slight amount because they both landed away from the main group. Shot 9, however, was shot while the rifle was grouping well, and I have no idea why it’s above the main group. The 10-shot group measures 0.647 inches between centers, making this the second-best pellet I tested in the rifle.
These 10 JSB Exact Jumbos measure 0.647 inches between centers. The first 2 shots are the holes at the right and bottom right of the main group. Then, the rest of the pellets went into the big group, except for shot 9 that went high. There is no explanation for that one. This is a pellet I would keep trying.
Filling from a hand pump
The biggest feature of the Benjamin Discovery, aside from the low price, is the fact that the maximum fill pressure is just 2,000 psi. It’s full right where other PCPs have run out of air. And that makes the Discovery extremely easy to fill with a hand pump.
Using the Discovery factory pump, I began the fill at just under 1,000 psi and pumped until the onboard pressure gauge read 2,000. It took exactly 100 pump strokes to fill the gun; and, until the final 20, they were as easy as inflating a bicycle tire. Only when the pressure passed 1,800 psi did I notice an increase in pump handle resistance.
One tip when filling with a hand pump is to go slow. Allow time at the top and bottom of each pump stroke for the air to flow through the various stages inside. If you don’t, you just waste energy and heat up the pump unnecessarily.
Observations so far
So far, I’m thrilled by the performance of the Lightweight Disco Double. The number of shots I get on a fill is large enough for serious shooting before it’s time for a refill and the rifle’s performance leaves nothing to be desired. A glance at the onboard gauge needle, and I know the status of the fill.
When I tested the original Benjamin Discovery rifles in both calibers, the guns I used were pre-production prototypes. I shot groups under 0.6 inches with both calibers; but at that time, I was shooting only 5-shot groups. The JSB Exact RS pellet did not exist at the time of that test. So, it’ll be interesting to see what this rifle can do at 50 yards with 10 shots. Remember — this is the first Benjamin Discovery production rifle I’ve ever shot!
B.B.
This is super stuff Sir. Accuracy is almost like an Airforce gun. Can’t wait to see the 50 yard test. But isn’t there a better solution to the slipping bolt? Maybe a stop fixed to the stock?
Errol
Errol,
Holding a bolt in this fashion is so common that I have never mentioned it before now, but nearly all PCP bolt action rifles need it. Usually they flip open when the air pressure drops low, like this one does.
Yes, a catch would be better, but this is not permanent. I only showed it today because it was why the gun was so loud with the silencer installed.
B.B.
I feel this would be a good project in which to involve the use of magnetism…?$$$?
I have access to lots of very strong magnets from hard drives. Is that bolt handle magnetic?
StevenG,
Yes, the Discovery bolt handle is magnetic.
B.B.
If you would like any of these magnets, let me know.
Odds are any friends in IT you have could find you the same. They are startlingly strong.
StevenG,
Thanks for your offer. I have many rare earth magnets already. But I’m not going to use them for this because the rubber band works so well.
B.B.
That is a wonderful idea!
B.B.
Can’t say much for the looks, but this method seems to work.
Matt61
Hello B.B.
I am glad you found the issue with the bolt. At first I couldn’t believe your initial results with the TKO LDC. I’m happy you were able to see the actual results with one of these installed. To me it’s one of the best and easiest upgrades to make the Discovery a true joy to shoot. Low fill pressure, quiet, accurate, what’s not to love! By the way, great looking stock on yours. Are these available for a non-double Discovery?
Curtis,
‘
I have to agree that the TKO is a wonderful item!
You would have to contact Norm Morin at http://discosrus.net who made the stock for this rifle. I would think he could do that.
B.B.
BB
I’m impressed about what you said about how you didn’t have any problems with mounting the TKO brake. Its 8-1/4″ long. Well that’s a custom brake then. The standard ones come in 5″, 6-1/2″ and 7-1/2″. The longer ones could be more picky to put on the gun because of the extra length. But like I said before. I have used them in the past and I have had good luck putting them on also.
And from what I keep seeing I’m going to have to give some of those JSB Exact RS pellets a try. I have a bunch of different JSB pellets and most are the heavier grain pellets. So I think I will get both the .177 and .22 caliber pellets on my next order.
And look how clean the targets look. No lead marks (or dirt marks) on the targets. Or what ever we want to call it when the pellet leaves a deposit on the target. I wonder why the Discovery doesn’t show that like the Meteor does? Hmm. Now what.
The marks are there. It could be due to the higher velocity, they have less time to leave a residue deposit behind.
RR
That sounds like that could be right now that you mention that. I know the pellet will cut a different hole in paper at different velocity’s.
So the TKO muzzle brake is not considered a “silencer” by ATF regulation?
tabrown,
There is no ATF “regulation” that determines what is or isn’t a silencer. There is a definition. If the TKO fits it, then it is a silencer, regardless of what it is called.
But the materials the TKO is made from, plus the fact that .22 pellets are smaller in diameter than .22 rimfire bullets, makes it unlikely this silencer fits the definition.
B.B.
Being one who enjoys tinkering, Lloyd’s kit has me considering picking up one of these rifles.
RidgeRunner,
This is almost a no-brain decision. This Disco Double is such a vast improvement over the regular rifle that it is worth whatever it ends up costing. Lloyd’s work in impeccable!
B.B.
This rifles setup is very interesting can you give us a Total Cost of this gun & also brake it down for each component.
MWC,
The basic cost is given on the Airgun Lab website. But I can give more detail.
Next report.
B.B.
Thanks B.B.
I basic kit is $165.
Lloyd magic! I am proud of how this rifle is performing. BB, is there a more permanent solution for the bolt popping open? I am not a fan of the rubber band fix.
David Enoch
David,
All PCP bolt actions have this problem to some degree. When the air pressure is right, the bolt’s o-ring cannot hold the bolt still and it twists.
They all do it to some extent, but usually the rifle is not in the power band when it happens. I just put this on to show you how to correct it. If I wasn’t testing the silencer and if I hadn’t fired the rifle outside the power band it would never have come up.
B.B..
David,
I’m pretty sure I’ve seen weighted bolt handles for sale. Can’t remember where, but it should help without using a rubber band. These bold handles are threaded and just screw in.
/Dave
If the bolt lifting is a common concern on PCP guns, why do they not have a method for locking the bolt in? I can think of several designs and clearly so can you.
Is this silencer and NFA item? It looks like it could be mounted onto a normal .22 and as such would be.
StevenG,
When you shut your car off does it make noise as the metal cools and shrinks back to size? That’s what this bolt rotation thing is — a physical phenomenon that is very common, and usually happens outside the PCP’s optimum power band. I simply showed this common fix for those who are perhaps unaware of it.
No, this silencer isn’t an NFA thing. I own an NFA silencer and this one is definitely not up to silencing a .22 rimfire for even one shot without being destroyed.
B.B.
BB,
In all the years of reading your blog, I never heard of a”bolt keeper”. When I first bought my Disco, this indeed was a problem but I thought it was due to the o ring on the bolt probe. I replaced that o ring but still watched the bolt jump around when I shot it. Now I know this is a common problem and not unique to my rifle. You really can learn something new here every day.
Fred DPRoNJ
Fred,
Now I’m wishing I had mentioned this long ago. It’s so common with bolt guns. The AirForce guns all do it to some extent. And my Daystates all did it. I have ever seen some sidelevers that popped open when they got into the right pressure range.
But something as common as this rubber band is so simple that I never gave it a second thought. I learned about it when I had an Air Arms Schamal. It’s bolt would never stay in place!
B.B.
B.B.,
Did you notice a change in poi with the rubber band in place?
kevin
Kevin,
I never took the band off, after testing the silencer. So it was on throughout the test. I’m pretty sure the velocity won’t change until the pressure drops to around 1,000 psi, which is where the bolt starts to flip up. By that time, all the good shots have been fired.
B.B.
So in reality, it is a special feature to let the shooter know it is time to recharge the rifle. ;o)
RR,
I almost reported it that way. But then I thought that maybe others have had this problem and don’t know what to do about it.
Then I kicked over the anthill!
B.B.
RR, so you are in marketing? A special feature… I like that!
Lloyd
BB,
I thought you were going to say that you wished you had never brought it up. I don’t ever remember having the trouble on any of my rifles but I have shot guns with that problem. A ball detent to keep the bolt locked would be a nice but expensive fix. The bolt could also cam into place on closure. That would be cheaper but would have to be precise.
David Enoch
Sure, but this is not detrimental to the operation of my car.
There are clearly going to be methods better than a rubber band, at least aesthetically. The pressures and temperatures we are talking about in airguns are simply not anything like what a bolt action rifles faces. I shudder to think what would occur if the bolt in my .300 win mag came open during the firing cycle. It seems unacceptable to me that this is occurring in such expensive airguns.
StevenG,
Funny you should say that, because many of my .22 rimrifes also open their bolts in this way.
A centerfire doesn’t do it because of the way the bolt lugs are cut, but many .22 rimfires don’t even have one real lug. They use the base of the bolt handle as a lug, and are therefore quite prone to flip up this way.
PCP rifles have no locking lugs. They rely on the channel the bolt handle rides in to serve as a lug, but because this channel is cut on a 90 degree angle, they have noting to stop the bolt from torquing open.
Tell me that you haven’t seen this in PCPs?
B.B.
I have no experience with PCPs, only spring and nitro guns. I have been looking to get a PCP, but this is the sort of thing that stops me from pulling the trigger, so to speak. If I had a .22 that did that I would be getting rid of it. Why are there no locking lugs? I get that it would be overkill, but it seems like a good solution to the problem, not terribly expensive and would give a nice positive bolt is closed feel to the airgun.
StevenG,
There are no locking lugs because they aren’t needed and they would cost too much. That’s why you don’t see them in rimfire rifles very often — including some that cost thousands of dollars. They just aren’t required.
I’m beginning to sense the need for a blog on this subject. Tell me — do you own a .22 rimfire bolt action rifle? If you do, could you please tell me what model it is?
As for the expense of having locking lugs, maybe I should wait and put that into the blog, if I write one.
B.B.
I would have to go look at it to be sure. I know it has locking lugs, I took it apart and reassembled it many times as a young man.
If the bolt handle lifts as you describe it seems something is needed. If a rubber band can do the job, lots of things could be built in. Likely even a simple catch of some kind.
StevenG,
You are right! A ball detent might do it.
B.B.
I was only following your lead. Is anyone constructing these disco doubles as a done deal?
StevenG,
I don’t know what you mean by “done deal.” The Disco Double is proprietary to Airgun Lab. Did you visit their website that was linked in Part 1?
There is no problem with the rifle. I was shooting it outside the operational parameters, when it did what it did. I noticed that because I was testing something else, so I fixed it. So I took a picture of a very common fix for all PCP airguns. I didn’t invent this. I am only showing it for those who want to learn how these guns work. This is just a little tip.
B.B.
BB and StevenG,
The Edgun Matador is equipped with a detent ball in the bolt to prevent just this issue, so some manufacturers are addressing this.
RR,
That’s good to know.
B.B.
My Disco bolt doesn’t do it, but the one on the 2240 does.
Never occurred to me to use a rubber band on it!
Instead I used thick marine wheelbearing grease on the bolt/bolt channel, and a thicker o-ring. It will still on occasion start to rotate up but it hasn’t popped free yet!
DD,
The reason the 2260 does it is it operates at the exact pressure where this phenomenon occurs. If you run your Discovery down to that pressure, it will probably do it, too.
B.B.
I see that the TKO will probably get passed the ATF since it would be destroyed upon use in at .22 firearm (unless of course, it worked for the one shot). I promise to say not more; you have been clear for all of us I think, and the link to your former article is certainly pertinent. ~Ken
If I can find centerfire rifles with locking lugs in the same price range as many PCPs I have trouble believing price is the issue. Unless profit margins on PCPs are just that low.
By the way if one fails to notice your math problem before posting we encounter an error 500.
My guess is you intend to show some sort of error document and that the config for this is wrong.
I have not run into bolt lift with .22 rimfire guns. I have a Remington 511 and a 512. I also have a Anschutz 54. It is new to me. I don’t have PCP’s, only spring guns and pump guns. I would think that a fix would be found since it is that common. While a rubber band works, it is a bit Redneck.
Mike
Mike,
I had a Remington 521T that lifted its bolt with standard speed cartridges. maybe that’s where the difference lies? I shoot a lot of that stuff for target use.
My Remington Speedmaster 37 doesn’t have a locking lug other than the bolt handle and it does lift. Perhaps “lift” it too bold. The Remington bolt moves with the shot. If you watch your two Remingtons I think you will see them do this as well. One way to know they do it is to press down on the bolt handle after the shot and see if there is movement. If there is, the bolt has lifted. Check that Anschutz, as well.
B.B.
This is a frightening phenomenon on firearms because if the bolt does open the consequences will be a lot worse than for an airgun. Can’t they build in a locking lug on the airguns to hold the bolt in place?
Matt61
Matt,
The phenomenon we are discussing happens well after the bullet leaves the barrel and the pressure drops. My Weihrauch HW 52 .22 Hornet is a dropping block that drops the breechbolck after firing. But it happens so much later than the cartridge is still firmly in the chamber.
B.B.
I would agree that there is some bolt movement. I think it is the result of the striker releasing as it can happen if the rifles are dry fired too.
Mike
I was surprised to see the rubber band fix on this expensive air rifle.
My old Remington single-shot .22 never had this problem. I fired thousands of rounds of Remington/Peters Hi Power LR through it. My experience with .22’s was mainly limited to this gun.
My grandchildren this year are being exposed to the Dark Side. They are shooting Daisy Avanti PCP rifles in competition. I think these guns aren’t cataloged any more. They are single shot .177 target rifles. Fill pressure on these is only 150lbs. They shoot at under 600fps, and can get a large number of shots per fill. They are owned by the shooting club.
We are engaged in a traveling shooting series in the Nebraska Panhandle. We shoot each Sunday this time of year. So far, we have shot competitions in Rushville and Kimball. This Sunday we are going to Chadron. Melanie and Nicky have been shooting the PCP’s. Amber will be shooting in the BB gun as well starting Sunday. Melanie and Nicky are not doing bad for starters.
Amber will be shooting a Daisy 499.
We will have more tournaments in Hyannis, Ogallala, Alliance, and Mitchell. The state championships are held in Beatrice, but I don’t think we will do that this year.
Since 150lbs. pressure isn’t very much, perhaps an Avanti-type PCP would be a commercial success if it came with a hand pump and could be sold for around $650 with pump? We take a spare reservoir for each rifle,but so far have not had to use them. In a typical match, they shoot three multi-bull targets, 14 rounds per target. 42 shots.
All the PCP guns I see listed take much more fill pressure. Our guns are limited to 600fps. because of the limitations of the target backers. That is fast enough: I can bring my Bronco to school sometimes for a few potshots after the kids are done. Our 4H shooting school meets every Monday night, with an optional practice night every Thursday. That is especially valuable for shooters going to a tournament the following Sunday. The school provides Avanti 499’s and PCP guns and related equipment for people going to out of town shoots. They also will supply pellets and bb’s, but I provide RWS R10’s for the grandkids.
Les
All I can say is, “WOW”. However, you wrote that there are no barrel alignment issues with the TKO silencer. Are there any FBI issues to consider.
~Ken
Ken,
The FBI has nothing to do with silencers. They are controlled by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
I you don’t feel comfortable about this product then I don’t recommend getting one.
B.B.
Oops! I had that repartee coming. I really do know that the ATFE regulates moderators. I’ve been watching too much TV, I think. Of course, any Brits who tune in here don’t have this issue. ~Ken
Everyone,
Due to a lot of reader interest in the silencer in this report, I have removed it from the rifle and added a note to the text, below the discussion of the silencer. I’m doing this to end the discussion about silencers on this blog, as it is too easy to make a mistake that can get you into serious trouble with the authorities.
My note directs you to an article I wrote 8 years ago about the subject of silencers on airguns. That was researched in depth for a larger article I did on legal silencers for Shotgun News.
B.B.
B.B.,
Upside is that now the top cap will fit again.
I can notch the cap for folks that use a TKO, though.
Lloyd
B.B.,
I am a former police officer (and firearms instructor) and an attorney (although nothing in this comment should be taken as legal advice). I know the discussion on the “thing” at the end of the barrel on the Disco is over; but, I feel compelled to comment. When I first got interested in airguns a little under 2 years ago, I noticed that all the British airguns had suppressors on them. Being generally aware of the tax stamp filing requirements under the National Firearms Act regarding firearm suppressors, I decided to do some research on the issue of airguns and suppressors since I was contemplating acquiring a Benjamin Discovery and knew that removable suppressors for it were popular. Without rehashing my research and the law, let it suffice to say that while I did acquire a Disco, I did not acquire a removable suppressor/silencer/moderator (whatever you want to call it), and I will not acquire one as the law stands today (note here that I am specifically addressing removable suppressors and not built-in shrouds like on the Marauder).
So, I was somewhat surprised this morning when I read your original blog post and, more particularly, some of the responses to comments regarding the legality of removable suppressors on airguns since they were contrary to my, albeit cautious, reading of the law. I spent a good deal of today contemplating writing a full (read lengthy) response with my analysis of the law on the issue and why I thought the original post and comment responses regarding the legality of removable suppressor were, to put it mildly, “debatable.” I was hesitant to write a comment for a number of reasons, including having no desire to engage in a “flame” war with any other commentators, realizing that reasonable minds can differ on reasonable readings/interpretations of the law, and, quire honestly, being a good Texas boy, not wanting to be an unwelcome guest in your “house” into which you so graciously invite us.
So, imagine my pleasant surprise when I cam back this afternoon and saw your revised post and comments about this issue, along with the link to your article on the subject. I recommend that article and your revised comments to all your readers. I would like to leave with these final questions/comments to your readers to frame the issue if they have decided to buy a removable suppressor for their airgun. Mainly, if removable suppressors are legal, why do no manufacturers of airguns (that I am aware of) such as Crosman, Gamo, BSA, Umarex, etc., and no large airgun retailers sell removable suppressors in the U.S.A. (again, I distinguish between removable suppressors from built-in shrouds and permanently-affixed airgun suppressors)? Surely, given the apparent demand for these items, if these companies, with all their expensive lawyers, thought removable airgun suppressors were legal, they would sell them. They don’t sell them because the law is, at best, unclear and the risk is too great. In my opinion, the risk of ownership of a removable airgun suppressor is too great for us as airgun owners if we own one and we are wrong – the risk of (if I remember right) up to 20 years in a federal prison, up to a $250,000 fine, the loss of your civil liberties (the right to vote and own firearms), and being a convicted felon for the rest of you life.
MBB3,
first, welcome to the blog. Second, the Blog editors (Tom and Edith Gaylord) do not allow flaming wars. I think you’ll find it one of the most genteel blogs out there dealing with airguns of all types. Your input is most appreciated and I agree with you. At best, the law is extremely unclear and that is very dangerous as it allows aggressive prosecutors to interpret and press the law however they feel like. I remember reading someone going to jail due to possession of a suppressor even though, as BB remarked, one shot and the suppressor was history but I remember the prosecutor arguing that even if the suppressor lowered the volume of just one shot, it met the definitions under the law. Don’t be surprised if Edith, with her phenomenal memory, will tell us where the article can be found.
As for expensive company lawyers – yep. Good? Not necessarily and I can think of two or three in companies that I worked for (insurance industry) that were totally useless. One wonders how they were able to pass the Bar.
Fred DPRoNJ
MBB3,
Welcome!
Greatly appreciate your contribution.
Since todays article is about the Benjamin Discovery aka “Disco” and most owners common complaint about these pcp’s is noise I can understand and appreciate the dialogue about how to quiet them.
Considering your background I fully understand your conservative and cautious interpretation of a “thingys” legality.
Would greatly appreciate your opinion on the recent court case which potentially distinguishes
airgun LDC’s and moderators from firearms suppressors. Although I know enough about our judicial system to not want to be a test case that sets a possible precedent you know more about the law than I do and would like your take. Thank you.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-circuit/1527670.html
kevin
Kevin,
Tom wanted the suppressor discussion to end, and I transgressed this already with my first post. So, I will answer your question with my take on the Crooker case since I knew it was coming when I posted my first comment (and like the previous post, I am not intending that anyone rely on it for legal advice). But, after that, I am going to shut up on the topic. To be honest though, you answered your own question. Do you want to rely on this case and be a test case if you ever get arrested for having a removable suppressor on your airgun? You don’t and I don’t. Look what happened to Crooker – he was arrested, his home was searched, his brother’s home was searched, he was convicted at the federal district court level, and he got an acquittal at the appellate level. He may have had a public defender – but, how much money do you think it would cost you or I to take a case to the appeals court (and maybe the Supreme Court) to stay out of prison on a federal silencer charge? $200,000, $300,000, or more? Is it worth the risk? For me, the answer is no.
Now, as far as a legal analysis, as they teach you in law school, each case is fact sensitive. But, I would point out that this is a ruling by one federal appeals court. There are (if I remember correctly), 11 other federal court of appeals jurisdictions. I have not researched it since I first read this case; but I do not think this case has been adopted by any of the other courts of appeals. So, this case is good law in the First Circuit. Other circuits are free to accept or reject the ruling and the rational. But, let us be clear what the ruling is, it was a ruling on an improper jury instruction. The First Circuit Court of Appeals basically said, as I read the case, that the judge did not instruct the jury that they had to find intent that the suppressor be used as a firearms silencer. If the district court judge had properly instructed the jury that they had to find intent and the jury had still convicted Crooker, he would be in a federal prison right now on the possession of an unregistered silencer. I am willing to bet that the next time the U.S. Attorney prosecutes an airgun silencer case, the jury charge WILL have language on finding intent to use it as a firearms silencer and, if the jury does find intent, the person charged will get to say “Hello” to federal prison. I for one would not want to risk my future on a gamble that a jury finds no intent. Juries do funny things like convict people on firearms charges.
The way I ultimately view this case is by analogizing to the O.J. Simpson case. He was found not guilty of brutally killing his ex-wife and her friend. Does that mean it is legal in California for anyone else to do it? I don’t think so. Likewise, I don’t think the Crooker case, just because the appeals court overruled the conviction, stands for the proposition that removable silencers on airguns are per se legal. It stands for the proposition, in my mind, that, if someone gets charged with having an airgun silencer for use as a firearms silencer, their freedom is dependent upon 12 people finding that they had no intent to do so.
I hope I do not sound hostile with my response. That is not my intent. This is a serious area, and I just have grave concerns that people are putting too much reliance on the Crooker case. But, as I said in my original post, reasonable minds can reasonably differ on legal interpretations. At the end of the day, it is going to be up to each person to be comfortable with their decision on this matter.
Tom and Edith – I apologize. I am done responding.
MBB3′
Thank you. Very much.
kevin
I have a small collection of firearms (around 100, 40 are .22 cal.). I have owned many more in the last 60 years, and shot lots of friends rifles. I have experienced bolt lift in Lee Enfield rifles when dry fired, but (to my knowledge) , not in any other bolt action rifles. I have owned 2 little scout .22 cal boys rifles (modified rolling block action). Before I knew better, I shot modern ammo in them , and the breech block would unlock when fired ( the empty case would auto eject when high speed ammo was fired). Now I only shoot cb longs in this rifle . They were designed to shoot the low pressure ammo in use 100+ years ago. I will have to take some of my rifles to the range and test them for bolt lift. The Blish system of delayed unlocking used this principle and was used in the original Thompson smg. I seem to remember that cannon using interrupted thread breech blocks also partially unlock when fired. Ed
Ed,
Thank you for reminding me! I have a Crickett both action and a Daisy model 8 bolt action that both almost auto-eject when fired.
B.B.
BB, I am confused. The Remington 37 is a .22 cal bolt action target rifle. The speedmaster is a semi-auto rifle. What rifle were you refering to ?
Ed,
I said Speedmaster when I should have said Rangemaster.
B.B.
Ok now that the discussion is done about that thing on the end of the barrel.
I wanted to say something about your rubber band trick. I have that happen at times also on some of my guns. But I put my thumb up on the bolt and hold it down. Which is probably not good for my hold technique. But I’m use to doing it that way.
But on the other hand the Marauder rifles do have a ball detent that you can adjust. I don’t know if you knew that. It is on top of the receiver back by the end cap where you would adjust the striker and hammer. But you almost need to adjust it before you put a scope on because the eye piece usually ends up in the way.
And I have to say that I’m impressed about the groups the gun is making. Do you think that the extra volume of air from the Double tube is helping to keep the fps more consistent and making the groups better?
GF1,
As I said in the report, I only have ever tested a Discovery prototype. Based on that test, I think this rifle is about as accurate.
Of course many years have passed since that last test and I am also using pellets that weren’t available back then.
B.B.
BB
I would have to say the double air tube has to help in some way. And then combine the Marauder trigger to the mix. I think that makes for a nice combination to produce a good shooter.
Congratulations B.B. on the first time shooting your rifle and getting the great results. About the silencer, I will venture to say that it’s pretty long. That’s all. 🙂
Thanks to everyone for reading that link about about the smartscope that I didn’t have time for and explaining it. I see Edith is not going to let the times pass her by. 🙂 So, there is a role left for the shooter. You have to be able to put the reticle on the target, but you don’t coordinate that moment with the trigger release. It is not an entirely fire and forget process as it sounded like from the description. I’m reminded of a story about a horrendous crash involving a foreign person and a new van he just purchased. It turns out that while driving he had put on the cruise control and then got out of his chair and walked to the back of his van. The description he’d received on cruise control made him think it worked like an autopilot.
gunfun1, 3D flying is impressive. It was something that I had hoped to work up to before distractions got in the way. That’s a relief that the flying skills have not disappeared entirely. When I resumed riding a bike after a 20 year hiatus, I could balance right away, but it took longer to really get comfortable. I had about 5 minor crashes in the first year and then nothing.
Matt61
Matt
I was worried about my first flight one time about 5 or so years ago. It was after I got sick and was in the hospital. I didn’t really feel like and couldn’t do much during the time I was sick. So I would say about 8 months went by before I felt like flying again.
But I took off and was a little nervous and I took it up pretty high in the air in case I made a mistake so I would have room to recover. I started throwing the plane around like usual and then had the plane back hovering with the nose straight up about 3″ off the ground and coming down and touching the rudder on the ground and then back up about 3″ again and rotating the plane with the ailerons in one place will hovering straight up. All I can say is its fun stuff.
The double disco can be a very formidable gun if you do a bit more to it like install a boss max flow valve, install a heavier hammer spring, adjustable striker and power adjuster. Them with a TKO muzzle break on it the gun is a pure joy to shoot. I know this since I build up discos like this then put my own touch of class on it. If done right the disco can be even better than a Marauder.
Update on the Talon Tune Tank Adapter or TTTA for short. For those of you not familiar with this, it’s an offset adapter made by Talon Tune (who specializes in the Air Force Talon) that lowers the tank by an inch or two and has a pressure gauge and Foster quick disconnect valve allowing (1) the tank/stock to be lower and thereby remove the need for extra high scope rings and (2) gives you a pressure gauge to show how much air is left in the tank. The TTTA is a well made piece of anodized steel. Installing was not a problem. Remove the Air Force valve from the tank (Youtube videos on this), remove the o ring that may be stuck inside the tank and re-install on the stock valve which screws into the TTTA. However according to Talon Tune, another o ring goes between the TTTA and the tank. Guess what? No extra o ring came with the TTTA. Not knowing there was supposed to be an o ring, I screwed the TTTA into the tank and assembled everything.
There’s a bit more in the assembly in that you have to rotate a steel ring that’s located in the frame of the Talon and held by grub screws, so that the TTTA and tank assembly can be rotated so that the gauge and valve are aligned. Oh, one of the grub screws have to be ground down for clearance. Skipping the drama (like the rifle falling over on my table and 4 springs falling out and more), I reassembled everything and pressurized the tank only to discover an air leak where the missing o ring was supposed to be. I ended up using teflon tape on the TTTA threads and eliminated that air leak. Re-pressurizing the tank and checking again, I had another air leak. This time at the stock valve! Murphy’s law!
The stock valve is a brass fitting with an internal plastic plug that is held against the exit orifice (where the mysterious tophat is) and is friction fitted into the tophat shaft. The air pressure forces the plug against the internal exit of the orifice in the valve preventing air from escaping. Hit the other end of the tophat with the gun’s hammer and the plastic plug is knocked away from the orifice allowing high pressure air to escape. Air pressure and a spring force the plug back against the valve. So, unless anyone has better suggestions, I’m going to lightly lap the plug into the brass valve to try to get that airtight seal I should have. Glad today was a snow day and it seems maybe tomorrow with more snow on the way!
Fred DPRoNJ
Fred
Never is easy is it ?
My Condor tank started leaking once (valve seat) . I drained the tank and used a drill tightened on the top hat to lap it in (very carefully) . It worked.
twotalon
I hadn’t figured on this.
Fred DPRoNJ
Fred
I didn’t figure my Condor tank would start leaking down while the Talon was sitting in the cabinet . It is on the Talon by the way.
I tried filling it back up and it started leaking worse !!!!!
All I was doing was going through the tanks and getting them all topped off and got this .
twotalon
Fred…
Here is what I saw happen……
When I started pumping, I saw that the pressure was a lot lower than it should have been, but not empty. I pumped it up, then bled the pump and closed the valve. The pressure started coming up on the gauge again. The tank was bleeding back into the hose .
twotalon
Sounds like it could get more involved than what it looks. I think I will look into it more. So that way I can be ready if I get one.
Fred,
Definitely a good way to spend a snow day.
Lloyd
Well, I was going to take out my 30 year old cross country skis and try to get my kids to fall over laughing….
Fred DPRoNJ
LLoyd
I ran across this while I was looking for something.
Could something like this on a smaller scale be used as a built in on board system to pump up a PCP gun. I’m interested in knowing if it will work that way. Kind of like the old pump guns of the day but with the pressures needed for PCP guns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6xzS-Z7wRE&feature=player_detailpage
B.B.,
That bolt flipping up is an annoyance that I have run into more than once. Some folks are now trying (this is not a new thing) a probeless bolt, where the bolt is flat faced and pushes the pellet past the transfer port, then the handle drops down into the usual 90 degree slot, and then the the bolt pulls back into a new lower slot that retracts the tip of the bolt to fully expose the transfer port.
That clears the air path to the pellet and guarantees that the bolt stays locked. It is especially useful on powerful big bores.
Lloyd
Lloyd,
That’s good to know. Thanks!
B.B.
Hello B.B. et all,
I have 2 Marauder rifles and one Marauder pistol. The only time the bolt has blown back is when I fail to rotate it fully after seating it or if I bump it between the time I loaded the pellet and when I made the shot. This can happen during a hunt sometimes when moving around to get a sight picture. I cannot see how theair discharge can possibly twist the bolt. I think this happens because the bolt is not fully in its lock position.
I’m interested in getting the double air tube conversion kit for the Marauder pistol.
the word “silencer” may get you and TKO some attention you or they don’t want. The crosman pistol forums they are called “Lead Dust Catchers” or better yet, just a plain muzzle brake that changes the sound characteristics in a pleasant way.
Brian,
That’s not going to help. I know of someone who produced a lot of “decibel reduction devices…not silencers” in lots of pretty, non-threatening colors to fit just about any airgun on the market. One day at 3AM, the ATF banged on his home. All the devices were confiscated, warnings were issued and I can assure you he learned his lesson. He was lucky. Not everyone is.
Edith
Did anyone notice the dine in the pictures is made of silver. Silver dimes are hard to find now. Roosevelt Silver Dimes were minted from 1946 to 1964. This one looks to be a 1962. I wonder if he used this more than 50 year old collectible coin for a reason. Is this his lucky silver dime? What are the chances that this coin was selected at random to be in the pictures? Maybe I need a silver dime to measure groupings next weekend when I go shoot my new .22 Benjamin Marauder for the first time!
Brian,
Welcome to the blog!
Here is the story of the dime:
/blog/2012/04/the-dimes-story/
B.B.