by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier
The $100 PCP is built on a Crosman 2100B chassis.
This test was very interesting! It began last week at my outdoor rifle range. Blog reader GunFun1 asked me to try shooting steel BBs in this gun because it was originally built to handle them (when it was in its Crosman 2100B form). I didn’t want to do it because this rifle launches the first couple shots at over 900 f.p.s., and steel BBs rebound like crazy (You’ll shoot your eye out), but I did relent. Last week, I took this rifle to my outdoor range and stuck a 12-inch Shoot-N-C target on the plywood target backer. I then paced off 10 meters and fired 10 BBs at this target.
I thought the BBs would probably miss the target altogether. I said as much to GunFun1 in my comments a few weeks ago. But they didn’t!
I was wrong about this. Shooting offhand with open sights, I put 10 Daisy Premium Grade steel BBs into 1.56 inches. It was actually 11 BBs. I must have miscounted during shooting. I was astounded! This isn’t just good — it’s great! You don’t shoot BB guns at 10 meters when you’re shooting groups!
There are actually 11 Daisy BBs in this 1.56-inch group. Shot offhand with open sights at 10 meters.
Incidentally, all 10 BBs apparently went through the plywood target backer. Of course, there are other bullet holes there, so the wood isn’t always present or at its thickest; still, it shows those BBs are moving!
That got me wondering just how accurate this rifle could be. I decided to shoot from 25 yards with open sights, only. I’ll come back and shoot with an optical sight of some kind, but this test is just open sights.
I filled the gun to 2,000 psi for every 10 shots, including for the BBs shown above. After 10 shots, the gun’s pressure has dropped to 1,000 psi.
Crosman Premier lite
The first group of 10 shots was shot with Crosman Premier lites. Based on the 10-meter results for the last test, and also from where the BBs went, I adjusted the rear sight to the right just a little. After the first shot, I looked through the spotting scope to affirm it hit the target. It did, was high above the bullseye and fairly well-centered left and right. So, I left the sights where they were and fired a second shot. When I looked through the spotting scope, I saw it had gone through the same hole as the first! Wow! That was starting out well!
The first 4 shots all went into the same hole. Then shot 5 went higher for some reason.
The first 4 shots are in 0.179 inches. Shot 5 opened it up to 0.838 inches.
After taking the picture of the first 5 shots, I shot the remaining 5 shots. That was informative because all the shots spread out to the left. Having the first 5 shots on record allowed me to see that the second 5 were the ones that actually spread out. The 10-shot group measures 1.358 inches between centers.
Ten Crosman Premier lites went into 1.358 inches at 25 yards. That’s rested and using open sights. See how the last 5 went to the left and opened up?
RWS Hobbys
Next up were RWS Hobby pellets. They did quite well at 10 meters, but 25 yards is about the maximum distance at which wadcutter pellets hold their accuracy.
I adjusted the rear sight down one notch before shooting this group. Once more, I photographed the target after 5 shots.
The first 5 RWS Hobbys looked pretty good. Shot 1 was a 10!
So Hobbys held together fairly well at 25 yards. Ten went into a group measuring 1.144 inches between centers.
Air Arms Falcons
The last pellet I tested was the Air Arms Falcon pellet. This time, the first 5 pellets didn’t seem to do that well. And when we see the final 10-shot group, it isn’t that much larger.
The first 5 Falcon pellets didn’t do so well.
This is one of those rare instances where 10 shots are not much larger than 5. Ten Air Arms Falcons went into 1.912 inches.
Conclusions so far
This experiment is turning out much better than I had hoped. Not only have we demonstrated that it’s possible to make a precharged pneumatic rifle that can retail for under $100, we’re now showing that it can really perform! Of course, the production gun will get many more shots on a fill than the 10 I’m getting, but I do think the maximum fill pressure should be held to 2,000 psi. That will make it easier to build an affordable hand pump, which Dennis Quackenbush is thinking about right now.
The discharge noise of this rifle is quite loud. I was going to recommend not putting a shroud on the gun, but I’m going to change my mind on that point. The customers for this gun will be suburban shooters who need a quieter air rifle, so some sound dampening is necessary.
The trigger on the rifle is heavy, and I would leave it the way it is. I would also leave the bolt-action exactly the way it is on the 2100B. The same goes for the sights. These are refinements people can pay for on higher-priced PCPs. We want to hold the cost of this gun to less than $100 retail.
I do plan on returning to test this rifle at least one more time with an optical sight. That will show the maximum accuracy potential, although I believe we’ve already seen a good indication of it in this test.
The $100 PCP will never replace the higher-priced PCPs that are already selling. It isn’t supposed to. It’s supposed to provide that entry-level step for those who are curious about precharged airguns and don’t want to spend a fortune to find out. I think it’s a very feasible goal and, quite possibly, a profitable one, as well.
This is a potential game changer to reach buyers, not airgunners yet, that have little or no experience with airguns.
This has to be a package deal to be successful. Include a cheap HOA pump, all fittings, an inexpensive scope with ao (ADJUSTABLE OBJECTIVE), mounts, and 50 pellets that are identified and are probably accurate. Sure, those pellets might not be the most accurate in all barrels at all elevations but they will be better than the off the shelf pellets shot in all the airguns bought in local big boxes.
Be different and include a sampler of pellets that typically shoot best out of your airgun introduction. If they’re premium pellets only available online so be it. Include a footnote on your manual that gives website addresses of where these premium pellets can be purchased. If they’re pellets that can be obtained from typical local sources great! Use this in your marketing.
Kevin
I’m a big fan of the 2100 and hope this works out well.
On the other hand the FD PCP is mostly wood and metal
(it’s a converted XS60C) has a 1500 psi fill and is $100.
So far the reports on it are very promising.
It still requires a fill method and a hand pump is offered
as a package deal $240 for both.
It’s still more than I want put into getting into PCP right now and doesn’t
take into account that a chrony is also needed to tune it easily.
I’m really glad though that folks are making the effort and trying
to make pre charged guns easier to operate and less costly for
the average shooter to get into.I hope this is a trend that continues.
G’day BB
How is it possible to shoot BBs with that much accuracy?
Do the BBs spin with the rifling?
Will the steel BBs wear out the rifling?
Cheers Bob
Bob,
I don’t know.
I don’t know. But I doubt it — at least not uniformly.
I don’t know.
B.B.
BB
You know what. Now it makes me wonder if the gun should be detuned a little. That would give more shot counts per fill. And it would make the gun a little quieter. And safer for that fact if somebody was to use bb’s.
And thanks for trying the bb’s. It looks like they held there fair share with the pellets you tested.(and the things you have to do these days for a job) But again thanks for the bb test.
And after reading Kevin’s response I will have to agree with him. You should test a pellet and bb (yes bb) that any body could get at the local store.
That’s the way it was when I was a kid. Our little Mom & Pop corner market had the little cardboard containers of black and yellow Daisy bb’s available. I use to save my lunch money up and get some for the weekend.
And on another note. Back then nobody worried about noise from a firearm let alone a air gun. But times have changed as we all know. So yes BB a big thumbs up for a quiet shrouded $100 PCP gun.
Also I have to say this. Simple but effective. Yes keep the gun basic. But build it on a platform that has mods available already. Us older shooters will welcome that because we know the guns could be upgraded as our kids progress in their shooting skills and give us old timers a new platform to build from. And also that way they can be used with the equipment that the parents may already have.
So on that note I hope if this all comes true that the gun will be available with or without the support equipment (hand pump). Kind of like following the Discovery platform. But also I have to note again that I hope it will have the technology of the Marauder shroud.
I just hope this all happens sooner than later. Time is ticking on. And it would really be cool to see this in the stores after we all talked about it here. Couldn’t you see walking up to a dad and there son or daughter at the local store and say; I remember when I talked about this gun before it was built.
So here is the chance to actually be involved in the making of a air gun.
And I know BB said this before.
The gun manufacturers are reading and listening. And I also do believe that.
GF1,
I will recommend that the production gun not be able to shoot BBs.
As for the power, I like it where it is. A larger reservoir and a balanced valve will take care of the shot count.
B.B.
BB
It would probably be better that it didn’t shoot bb’s I suppose because of safety reasons. But as far as the shot count goes I guess it couldn’t hurt to get a few more shots per fill.
But I sure did like the results that the bb’s produced. But also I wonder what the bb’s would do at a longer distance. Maybe the group will not spread out as much with the velocity they are moving at.
Is there any bb guns out there (not modified) shooting at 900 fps? I’m talking bb specific guns. But maybe that’s what is needed to help the accuracy of bb’s.
And I’m talking in general about bb’s at that velocity. Not directed at what kind of projectile the $100 PCP should shoot.
GF1,
This is the fastest-shooting BB gun I have ever seen or heard of.
B.B.
BB
I still have this idea in my head that keeps trying to get out. So I can’t hold it back any longer.
If a bb gun could shoot accurately. Say hold a 2″ group at 25 to 30 yards. And then in terms of penetration. I wonder if the bb would go deeper than a pellet of the same weight.
It just makes me think that it could be used for squirrel and rabbits at closer distances.
And also thinking about safety. A pellet will ricochet also if you hit something the wrong way. But in that respect the bb will probably glance off of something hard if it doesn’t have enough power to penetrate.
And yes if my old 760 could of made 900 fps. I would have to say that I would of probably got into some kind of trouble with it.
Yep your right BB. No $100 PCP bb gun.
Steel BBs are much lighter than lead pellets. They were not intended for hunting and they should never be used for that purpose at all.
The most important reason is that the chance of hurting the animal is much greater with steel BBs than with pellets. The accuracy with BBs is usually very poor. BBs loose speed and energy very quickly.
Important note: Steel will react chemically with the blood of the animal, and start rusting. This creates a lot of pain in the animal. Have you ever got a small peace of steel in your finger? Then you know it is very, very painful compared to get a small, tiny bit of wood in your finger.
We have used steel shots for hunting in shotguns for several years over here, and a lot of animals have suffered a painful death (because of a lead ban) – and a lot of shot guns have been destroyed or worn out. Now they talk about allowing lead shots again. I hope they will do.
Safety
A steel BB will ricochet at almost anything. A lead pellet will go flat and loose speed very fast compared to a steel BB.
Hunting
I suggest you always use lead pellets and lead shots – and nothing else for hunting. Do not think that lead-free is the new heaven. It is not! We have tried over here – and tried a lot. You will end up with fast wear of the rifling in your barrel, fast wear of the mechanism of your gun, poor accuracy, low power, more misses, shorter hunting range – and a lot of strange problems you have never thought of. One example is that you fire four shots with OK accuracy and the fifth one goes far off for no reason.
That is a good point about the lead free be green thing. I haven’t hunted with a shot gun in years. I guess there is steel shot available for them over here. I will now pay attention to that.
So what did you see in the bore of the shot gun barrel to know it was getting tore up? Or did the pattern of your shotgun start getting bigger? Well on that point I’m glad I haven’t used the shotguns in a while. Maybe I saved them from getting tore up from what your saying.
Then on another point so maybe the lead-free pellets that are available now days would not be a good choice either. I’m not talking the light weight ones. That’s obvious. I’m talking the heavier pellets that came out lately that have tin in them.
Anyway what you just talked about would be a good point to bring up if they decide to start banning lead pellets here.
I was glad to see some concern expressed for the effect on game from steel bbs. While concern is often stated for the importance of clean kills, the longer-term effects of steel inside a living body is seldom mentioned.
This point is well-taken. I’m sure anyone who has sustained wounds from steel shrapnel would agree.
When I was a kid, we were taught to always fear wounds from rusty iron or steel, mainly barbed wire or nails. We were told that would result in tetanus infection. I don’t know if that were actually true, I guess it was cheaper to avoid injury than to get a tetanus shot. Eventually kids would get themselves cut bad enough to require stitches, then they would get a tetanus shot as part of the deal.
Les
I don’t know, I think I’m with GF1 on this one. I’d like a PCP BB plinker.
Like the bulk filled Drozd, Steel Storm and Steel Force.
No need for high power or extreme accuracy, it’s a 100$ PCP, it’s an introduction in the PCP world, not a competition rifle. Being a BB gun they could be made a repeater more easily no?
J-F
J-F
You know they could probably make a knob or a switch on the gun to go from high power for pellets to low power for bb’s. But also somebody would sure try the bb’s on the high power setting.
Maybe they could make it when you flip the switch for high power that a bb couldn’t be loaded. And don’t ask me how right now I’m just thinking of a way to try to make the gun shoot bb’s more safely and keep that a available option if somebody would like to shoot bb’s.
I can’t own a high powered airgun without going thru the licensing process and if it’s considered a firearm I can’t shoot it in my backyard or garage so that takes all the purpose of owning the airgun for me.
Since it has to cheap, the stock will have to be plastic so for me the way to go is with a replica M4, SCAR etc. there’s plenty of plastic guns to choose from, a repeater would be very nice and enjoyable for me so again FOR ME a low powered BB gun PCP would be the way to go, it would be an alternative to the CO2 guns. I don’t like plastic stocked “traditionnal” looking airguns like the 2100 and the 760, you have to pick plastic or wood, it can’t be wood looking plastic, it’s a huge turn off for me.
J-F
J-F
So that makes me think why can’t there be 2 models made based off the same gun. One model that shoots pellets. And one model that shoots bb’s.
Very easy to make the bb version. Add a magnetic bolt and and make the transfer port smaller to reduce the fps. And another benefit of the smaller transfer port would be more shots per fill.
I think it would be a mistake on their part if they didn’t make both options of the gun available.
BB
Sorry to go off topic, but I need help.
I bought one of the last 200 blue streaks and I have 5 days left on the return period.
Problem 1 — I cannot get smaller groups than 2 to 3 inches at 25 yards off a bench. I have tried JSB’s, Premiers, and Predators all give the same result. I then noticed black paint in the end of the barrel. Could this be the problem? And if so, what product will remove it?
Problem 2 — this thing is hard to pump, does it get easier as it breaks in? I have lubed all of the areas indicated in the instructions.
Problem 3 — really off topic, I have a .30 calibur FX with a beautiful walnut stock. Where I shoot it is hot, and I don’t want to put my sweaty cheek on that wood. I remember you recommend ballistrol, but I would think that has to be a dedicated wood finish/preservative for gun stocks that might be better?
Thank you so much for any help.
One of the Cockroaches!
AJ
Aj, on the paint in your Blue Streaks barrel ,use a Q-tip and brake cleaner. They seem hard to pump if your not used to it. Five pumps are good for 95% of your shooting out to 25 yards. Try the newer Benjamin cylindricals in your gun as well. My newer guns really do well with them.
Robert,
Thank you so much for your help, the brake cleaner worked and the groups have improved although still larger than I would like. I will keep shooting it and see if it gets better as it breaks in.
Again, thank you!
AJ
BB
I just noticed something. I guess because of the size of the Shoot-N-C target verses the black and white targets it make the groups look different. The Shoot-N-C target looks like its a bigger diameter target and the group looks like they are smaller. But when I look at the black and white targets the group looks bigger.
The only way that I could reference the target size was by looking at the bb or the pellet you placed by the group you shot. The pellet took up the ten ring on the black and white targets. And it looks like would take up to about 6 bb’s or so to cover the Shoot-N-C bullseye. So the pellet/bb reference was a good thing.
I’m also a fan of the Crosman, and my Remington Airmaster 77. I’ve had mine for about 6 years with nary a single problem, and fine, consistent accuracy. But, I haven’t tried it past about 15 yards. Seems to be a good gun for this modification project.
My thinking is that should this thing go to market, it should not be designed to shoot BBs and such should be discouraged. Although I myself would like a BB gun that would be capable of nailing a soda can at 25 yards, I do not think it is a great idea to put a “toy” like that in the hands of a kid.
As far as detuning it, I’m not so sure. I likely needs to be at least, if not more powerful than the “entry level” multi pumpers. For it to be successful, it has to show an advantage over them and the sproingers. When people go to Wally World, these will be sitting on the shelf amongst them and because the package will almost certainly have to include a pump, they will be the high end pellet guns there.
You might as well try some of the super light pellets in this thing because the marketeers need that information to put on the outside of the box. Or have you done that already? I can’t remember. Maybe I should go take my drugs this morning.
Does anyone happen to know the outside diameter of a Daisy 499 barrel? (Mischievous Grin)
RR
I don’t even want to know why you want to know what the outside diameter of the 499 barrel is.
And by the way did you ever figure out what to set the spring pressure on your AirForce valve at?
I have not had the opportunity to fool with the AF valve as of yet. When I tear it down, I will see how it is set and then tighten it some. If I am not mistaken, that will raise the fill pressure it will operate properly at.
As for the 499 barrel diameter, my idea is to take a 499 barrel and use it as a barrel insert in a low power break barrel. I suspect it would have to be a detuned .25 caliber. It will be necessary to get a small magnet and insert it into a hole drilled into the side of the barrel insert at the breach end to hold the BB in place until you fire.
RR
That could be interesting. A break barrel 499. That would definitely tell a story about where the accuracy comes from in the 499. Is it the barrel design, or is it the barrel design and the fact that its a fixed barrel. And throw the springer in with the mix. I would like to see the results of that idea.
And I believe you are right about tightening the spring on your AF valve. I thought about it the other day and forgot to ask.
RR
And as far as the toy part goes. Well a gun is a gun.
And see you already have ideas for modding the gun. But do you think the 499 barrel would really give a better result in the accuracy department than the barrel that’s on the gun?
I see a new test coming. A rifled barrel verses smooth bore barrel to see if one is better than the other for the accuracy of a bb.
This Crosman 2100 platform PCP is very interesting. I have three of them, and all of them are quite accurate ,and well worth scoping. They are the most common air rifle seen at flea markets and garage sales around my neck of the woods, and sell in the $15-20 dollar range, which would be a boon to me as I could maybe convert them to PCP’s if this became a factory issued reality. The only problem I’ve had in the regular version is the barrel assembly gets loose from pumping the thing up. That would be a non-issue with it being a PCP.
B.B.,
Such astounding accuracy with BBs from 10 meters is, well, ASTOUNDING. How would this rig do with BBs at 5 meters? Would it give the Avanti 499 a run for its money?
It also really begs for an attempt to speculate what is happening. Might it be that with a rifled barrel, large, consistent BBs, and, especially, higher-than-typical velocities, BBs can group significantly better than we always believed at such distances? With spinning round balls might greater velocity IMPROVE accuracy?
It makes me want to try my Daisy 880 with Avanti Precision Shot, Daisy Premium BBs, and Umarex BBs at 10 meters, but it’s too darn cold here to do it outside, and I do not wish to rip up my curtained-traps with BBs flying at 700+ fps. down in my basement.
This is kinda exciting — yet another experiment that adds to the “information base” but nevertheless prompts more (and unexpected) questions.
Michael
Michael, very interesting indeed. As a guy that used to shoot a lot of black power round balls, Rate of twist and barrel length has a lot to do with it. In muzzle loaders, a round ball likes a much slower twist than say a sabot or conical firing front loader. A lot of people buy lead round balls for their pellet rifle then stay the round ball isn’t accurate when it doesn’t shoot they way they’d like. I have often wondered if a different rate of “twist” would have made a difference just like it does in a muzzle loader. I’m probably way off base, but it fun to think about it. I love the idea of an accurate round ball shooter that can shoot with much more power than say a Daisy 499, with lead balls for safety of coarse. I find the round ball so much easier for me to handle. They are faster to load and resist damage from handling much better than the thin skirts of a pellet.
Bradly
Bradly,
I thought I was finished with this blog, but you have just suggested the next part. The rifle on .177-caliber round lead balls!
More fun!
B.B.
B.B. Looking so forward to that test! Are you going to look at say just one brand/type of lead ball or several? I know my Gamo lead balls were nice and round but very hard, making me wonder if they were even lead. While some of the lead balls I’ve had were soft and no perfectly round like say a Daisy bb.
Bradly
Bradly,
I will use what I can get.
B.B.
I second that test. You know they call air guns pellet guns. And you know people do try lead balls in their pellet guns. So I totally agree that test should happen.
Anyone have experience with the new Diana Bullseye ZR Scope MOUNT?
Never had much luck with their Dampa mounts but maybe this mount will be a viable option for magnum springers that are known to break scopes? Can’t find anything on the Umarex site?
https://www.diana-airguns.de/fileadmin/pdf/katalog/BULLSEYE_eng.pdf
kevin
This harkens back to the old target scope spring mounts. If I can find where to buy them, you may rest assured I will try one out. If it is properly designed and manufactured, it will be sweet!
Looks interesting if they did it right!
This is probably going to sound stupid, but would it be possible to use a modified forearm pump handle like on the Daisy type airguns instead of a separate bicycle type pump? Pump it up say 50 times and you get about a dozen shots? that way you could fill it from an air tank, or just pump it up before going shooting.
Jim,
FX is doing something similar with their FX Independence. It has been done before for single shots with both Daystate and Titan air rifles. And in the 1940s Benjamin made multi-pump rifles that got several shots per fill.
So it isn’t as crazy as it sounds.
B.B.
I am really hoping that Crosman will come up with the idea of building a Marauder version of the FX Independence.
I definitely hope Crosman/Benjamin will build a gun similar to the FX Independence. I usually don’t like to pre-order a gun. But if they make that one I will make sure I get it ordered.
I’ve shot many different pellets from many manufactures. I’ve found that the “Gamo Red Fire” pellet is the most accurate. Very consistent from pellet to pellet. Hard hiitng. May I suggest including this ammo in your future test?
Sounds like a good idea, with 5 grain bbs at 900fps your probably get the same with the light alloys and better accuracy.
The alloy pellets are no match when it comes to accuracy and penetration. At least this is true in my specific weapon. I’ve seen the same type ammo,but instead of having a polymer tip. It has a steel insert. Have not tried it yet. Can not find it to buy.
I’ve used game lethals in a benj. Trail np pistol and bagged five rabbits in two weeks. They would stack at ten yards, no kidding. Their 5.56 gr which I thought was a cool number. I don’t have a chrony but they’d go in one side out the other instant lights out between 5 and 15+/- yards. And it fit right in a pack. Bug out rig for sure.
Nixed the fibers and put a 3×9, the open sights moved onto a fury2 blackout(tr77) fit perfect with no changing anything. Little tip for those that want open sights on the Tr77 or similar.
Jeff,
I haven’t tested the Red Fire pellet. Maybe I will get to it this year.
B.B.
The “Red Fire” pellet package states it weighs 7.8 gr. I’m shooting a Gamo “Silent Cat 1250”. Although not stock. I’ve installed a Charilie Tuna trigger and a Bushnell Banner 3x9x40.Both upgrades made a difference. The trigger made the biggest. Not sure of pellet speed,do not have a chronograph. I noticed I was getting the sonic crack using alloy/non-lead pellets. I use hunt with this rifle so the sound is not wanted. I can group five shots in 3/4 ” from a resting position. This ammo is readily available at your local mass chain stores. At $8 for 150 is not cheap. If your rifle responds like mine did,you will know by the their shot. I can and have taken the head off of many turtles up to 25 yards. And have found decised turtles with carcked shells. Sorry to blab on. Id like to see it tested. Thank you for your time.
Is there a large following of turtle hunting? What kind of turtles? Do you eat them or were they destructive pests?
They have eat all my baitfish Perch,Crappie and Bass hatchlings.
Good work then, makes me want to inject a Mario reference… Smashin turtles, save the fishies instead of a princess.
Ive had snapper at the local game dinners, pretty good.
Before getting into airguns seriously I played paintball for about a year with my younger brother. We had so much fun, but quickly gave up on it because filling the tanks was such a headache. It had me turned off from pcps ever since. This kind of inexpensive, easily modified pre-charged has me reconsidering. Plus with the handpumps must be a lot easier. Really cool stuff B.B. keep up the good work.
RifledDNA
You haven’t shot a PCP gun? You seriously need to try one. A example of how they feel when you fire them is very smooth. Usually no recoil, and they usually don’t have the spring vibration either like other guns.
If you ever shot a multi-pump gun like a Crosman 760 that’s pretty close to how a PCP gun feels when you shoot them. I say its like holding a pool cue stick in your hand. Then pull the trigger, the gun fires and stays in place. You really don’t feel much at all.
Or maybe you have tryed one. But the hand pumps ain’t really that bad to pump either unless you have a big air chamber to fill. But I don’t pump no more. I got a ShoeBox compressor about 3 years ago and one of the small Benjamin 4500psi carbon fiber tanks. It sure makes PCP’s more enjoyable that’s for sure.
Oh yeah shot all the multi’s wally worlds got, but only the remington master77 could hold water for hunting,couple dozen squirrels saw that one, or rather didn’t. Never had one needed filling though, price of course is a factor. Did you guys think a second triangle would work fir the SAOS?
RifledDNA
I don’t know if I understand what you mean.
“Never had one needed filling though, price of course is a factor.”
If your talking about a 760 you don’t fill them like a PCP. You pump them with the pump that’s Incorporated into the gun. Or I miss understood what you meant.
Thats correct, filling from an outside source is what I meant.
A 760 is self contained. You don’t fill from a outside source.
It seems I hear 2000 to 3000 optimum fill pressure so if you have 4500 psi do you fill to those lower pressures or top it right off and get twice ad many shots? Does going over optimum pressure do you get destabilization or affected accuracy?
If you try that, you won’t get ANY shots. The valve will lock tight and the gun will be inop. You may also get some severe damage to the gun and may possibly blow it up.
Don’t even think about it.
twotalon
So the tank is capable of more than the gun. Ok. Would someone unaware fill the tank to capacity and do the damage you mentioned? Though the inexperienced probably won’t use such a tank.
There will always be someone who will overfill by accident or on purpose . The idea of getting more shots or more power with more pressure lures enough people in.
The optimum pressure for the gun is just that….optimum. It should give you the best shot count .
So far we are talking about unregulated guns. The regulated ones (have a pressure regulator) need to be filled above the pressure set by the regulator to work right. There will be a specified max pressure for safety reasons.
twotalon
RifledDNA
twotalon just said it best.
The tank that you use to fill your gun has to be at a higher pressure than what you want to fill up to.
If I want to fill my gun up to 3000psi and there is 2000psi in the gun right now. When I hook my tank up it has to have 3000psi minimum in the tank I’m filling from. So when I open the valve it will start at the 2000psi then fill to 3000psi. If the 4500psi tank only had 3000psi it cant fill the gun no higher than the 3000psi it has in it.
That would mean the bottle could have to be filled up to 4500psi again before I could fill any guns. And by the way that bottle that I have can fill up to 8 guns up to 3000psi from a 4500psi starting pressure.
Ooh so tthe tanks your talking about are for filling the guns reservoir, I was hearing the tank as the tank ON the gun, but yeah that’s the reservoir. So what are the capabilities and danger points of filling the reservoir?
Safety is a concern by all means. That amount of pressure released abruptly could cause some serious hurt to a person if a part of something broke free from the gun and became a projectile.
When you fill a gun with a un-regulated fill bottle you have to be very careful to not over fill your gun. The bottle will fill the gun very fast if you open the fill bottle knob to fast. That’s bad, bad business. You want to fill the gun slowly. The faster you fill the more heat it will create. So slow and easy is the way to fill a PCP gun.
On the other hand some people put regulators on there fill bottles and set it at say 3000psi if that’s what you want to put in the gun. That is a much safer system.
I would think you definitely want to monitor the pressures, let me clarify what Im asking= what are the typical reservoirs safe fill limits in comparison to the safe pressures of the gun? Can the gun be unsafe at the pressure the reservoir is rated for? I.E.- if the reservoir can supposedly take 4000psi is 4000psi where you want fill it to? Liken it to velocities, if the gun claims 1200 fps, and yes it can do it, but it creates an unstable shot with a sonic boom. Is pcp pressures like this in that what it can is not the same as what it should?
RifledDNA
Fill pressure on a PCP gun has a lot to do with how the valve is set up that transfers the air from the reservoir to the barrel. And I’m trying to answer with out getting to technical. Because there is so many variables that have to be balanced out right for the gun to shoot consistently.
But if you over power one part of the system the other part can’t do its job right. And the manufacturer will usually have a recommended maximum fill pressure for that particular gun. They will test the guns to much higher pressures to make sure the gun will operate safely.
So usually what happens when you get a gun is you test the gun by firing shots over a chrony and see what the most stable feet per second the gun shoots at. And most of the time that will be a lower fill pressure than the maximum they give. Then you go out and fill the gun and shoot some groups on paper and see what pressure the gun is at that makes the best groups. Theres a little more to it than that also. But I think you know what I mean.
But I don’t want to discourage you about all the technical stuff. If you go out and get yourself a basic .177 cal. Benjamin Discovery and hand pump combo. I think you will be very happy wit it. They are probably one of the most forgiving low fill pressure PCP guns you can get. You only have to fill them to 2000psi so that means less pumping. And you can get 35 or more shots from the gun with one 2000psi fill. And you can just shoot it and not worry about all of that testing stuff.
And if you want to up grade the Discovery there are many mods available for it. That was my first PCP gun and pump and I just recently got another one. But6 I hope that helps.
Most PCPs, from the specs, are rated for 3000PSI… There are a few rated for higher.
Note that the large tanks on the AirForce guns actually are supposed to undergo hydrostatic pressure testing at 5 year intervals. If I recall, such testing typically uses 50% higher pressure than the tank is rated for — and if the tank does not contract back to pre-pressure displacement it fails the test (this means the metal has fatigued and stretched — making for a weak, ready to fracture, tank). This is the same procedure that scuba tanks under go.
Most PCPs with “built-in” reservoirs are considered too small to be a “real” danger (the tank on a Condor is about the size of a 20-24oz soda bottle… imagine one in a refrigerator… Imagine it bursting… Now imagine that 200 soda bottles have appeared in that refrigerator — likely the door will have been blown wide open).
A reservoir may be able to hold more than the rated specification — but that’s using the safety margin. Going a few hundred PSI over once or twice is likely not a problem — going 500PSI over on a regular basis? Watch out.
Besides, if the reservoir was rated for some value, the firing mechanism (valve springs, aperture sizes, striker springs and stroke length) are optimized for that, and over pressure will just lock the system up to where the striker can’t open the valve. The Marauder has a port for a threaded rod to push the valve open to relieve the pressure, and one can screw the AirForce fill adapter (with a few dimes inside it) down enough to ease the valve open.
Ok thanks guys, definitely good info, just wanted to get a better idea too of lower pressures start losing accuracy so each valve has a sweet spot like springers pellet weight sweet spot because the pellets the valve.
You got it. 🙂
B.B.,
It’s a really interesting project.
I agree, the rifle should be quiet to enable backyard plinking.
I’m interested to see the pump you and Dennis Quackenbush are thinking about.
RB
RB,
The hand pump is Dennis’ idea, alone. Many years ago he and I experimented with vintage-type hand pumps, to see what kind of air pressure could be put into the =vintage airguns. When we knew that we could start to figure what sort of power they had.
The inexpensive hand pump will be based on that design, but will have a second stage and will be made of inexpensive cast materials.
B.B.
B.B.,
I know it would be more expensive, but I always thought it would be interesting to combine a stationary recumbent bike and a HP pump. Using cyclic leg power should be easier and more efficient than current bicycle pump styles.
David H
David H
I thought about using a hand pump and making a bracket and mounting the pump to a exercise bike or something. That way if I was in a survival situation I could still fill my guns fairly efficiently. Why not?
GF1
I think you will end up on the short end when it comes to the needed leverage.
twotalon
Aw come on TT you know I would figure something out to make it work. 🙂
GF1
Maybe.
You will need the leverage, and will have to run the pump slow enough to make it work well without smoking it.
Off topic…
I found O-rings for the S500 at Lowes. Got a couple packs and a little tub of o-ring grease . I am saving the good stuff for the Talons. It needs to have a very consistent viscosity over a wide temperature range . It won’t matter in the S500.
twotalon
TT
The last you said you got a sparrow with the 500. Anymore luck with the gun?
GF1
Have not tried. We had a week of melting, and the birds are hitting places where the ground is bare. It is not so easy to bait them in under these conditions.
It’s back down to cold again for at least another week. Don’t know how long it will be before I can get out and get some distance to get some good pellet analysis. Still need to pick up some 18 gr Exacts. Already have everything I want to try.
Some of the starlings are starting to pair up, and will soon be looking at anything that could be a nesting hole. Saw a whole bunch of robins a couple days ago. They are going to be pretty hungry before the worms come up. The turkey buzzards should be back in a couple weeks.
My little buddy showed up two days in a row to carry off dead starlings that I killed and tossed in the snow a while back. Don’t know how he can eat those things.
twotalon
GF1
Moved position in the thread…
I usually stay with the same pellet all the time because I stay with the same power all the time . In this case it looks like it might just shoot mostly higher or lower with different pellets and power settings . It is so easy to adjust power on this. I will probably do my zero on full power , then click the scope to reset for lower power .
There is a chance that it will simply shoot straight higher or lower, and all I would have to do is change zoom settings and choose one mark on the reticle without clicking . This is something that is still to be determined. However, I hate having to remember that I have to use a mark when I instinctively use the crosshair center. Too easy to forget at the wrong moment.
twotalon
TT
That’s what always bothers me about using different weight ammo or different power settings.
I try to keep my gun zeroed for the pellet and velocity that I always use. If I have a pellet that shoots at a different POI than normal and I’m going back and forth between the 2 pellets I use hold over or under depending on if the pellet is heavier or lighter.
But if I have to use that other backup pellet for a while till my normal pellet arrives then I re-zero. That’s why I like the scopes that have the turrets that you can set at zero after you get your POI set. Then I don’t worry about adjusting my scope for different pellets because I can just turn the turrets back to zero for my original pellet.
TT
You said you have the 16grn. JSB’s. and you want to try the 18’s.
I have shot mostly the 16 grn. JSB’s and then I tryed the 18’s. As strange as it may be I can’t really tell a difference in performance. As for as POI is concerned. And I guess they may hit a little harder but I didn’t really see much of a difference when I shot the 2 different pellets at a 2×4. Both pellets went a equal depth into the wood. Maybe the fps change verses the weight of the pellet made the pellet shoot with the same results.
And I hope this posts in the right place.
GF1
A lot of people say there is not much difference between the two. Might be some noticeable difference depending on just which tins you get hold of. That can happen way too many times.
Don’t know how it is going to respond with the 18s may not bother with them. I know that Kodiaks are showing slightly unsettling results over the chrono. Looking like it is going to work the smoothest with mid weights at full power. 18 may or may not be the breaking point.
Have some JSB Monsters, but not going to bother with them.
If this baby handles pellets the same way one of my spare Talon barrels does (24″ .22) I will be extremely happy. If it does as good as some of my HWs, it will darned sure be enough.
twotalon
TT
Well I would like to see what you come up with on the 18’s. You never know; they could just be the magic pellet for your gun.
And what do the monsters weigh? I forgot. I tryed them in the past in a Benjamin nitro piston gun with no good results. Also in the Marauder pistol. Also not good. Didn’t try them in the Monsoon though. I think I gave them to somebody to try. So ain’t got none no more. The 16grn. JSB’s is what I always get now. I use the 18’s as my back up pellet. What I have left of them anyway.
And the warmer weather will be coming soon. Then the starlings should really get going.
GF1
I think the Monsters are around 25 gr without digging them out and looking. I don’t think the s500 power plant is rigged quite right for the Kodiaks…..the Monsters could be absurdly wrong.
Might get some 18s when I order some more pellets.
I figure on shooting two different ways. Low power, probably with Falcons or RS, and high power with something on the order of 16 gr….Exacts, preds, metalmags, maybe FTS. Depends on how they do.
The lower power (second setting) and the full power .
Low power is not hardly noisy at all. High power is not super quiet, but a far cry from what the Talon does. Either should do fine.
There will have to be some testing to find out what it will take for groups to settle after changing power or pellets. Just a couple more things in learning the nature of it.
twotalon
TT
Do you re-zero your scope when you go to a different pellet than what you normally would use. Like if the 18’s shoot lower than the 16’s. Do you leave the gun zeroed for the16’s and use hold over for the 18’s when you shoot them.
hello gentalmen,I have been thinking about this off and on today on the $100.00 airgun.Yes it will be a great starter for people to get there feet wet and on the road to airguning.But I just have one concern,thats because i was one myself 45+ years ago “kid”.so please correct if I dont understand something here.Is there not a way to keep a BB out fo the chamber? IF not 900 fps. will go plum thru a eye ball and into a skull.My concern dad trying to be a good father will give little johnny his first ‘BB’ gun thinking this is no different the his childhood red rider.So even with warning on the box in big bold letters “DO NOT SHOOT BBs THEY WILL CAUSE BOLILY HARM OR DEATH” the kid aint gona get it.Being a boy with his buddys showing off is a recipe for real harm I’m afraid.I think most BB guns are putting at 400 fps. or close. I’m not trying to be Debbie Downer,but 900 is flat moving on! So would it be possable not in 177 but only 20 cal. or 22 cal.? Would it not be fesible? I know big box stores carry 22 cal. pellets but 20 cal. could be a problum. Again we all know kids will do stuff when mom and dad aint looking with BB gun or anything as far as that goes. If I had had one of those things as a boy I’d been in more trouble then you could shake a stick at! but I would have had fun busting bottles etc.BBs would often bounce off those bottles too.Shooting snakes heads off in the creeck was also great fun.But BB guns were much weaker then but still would put your eye out.Now I know we can not all worry about being a mother hen I just think 900 fps. is a bad idea in the hands of children that dont have no idea what this thing could do to them or there little buddy standing beside him thats all I’m saying.Even with a resposable dad or mom he will still at times probley be along with it with his wondering little mind thinking I wonder would happen if I shot this rock or this bottle or that peice of iron? IN the hands of us who understand fps and the almighty foot pound,we”d have fun time with this air and it would more then likely lead us to bigger and better airguns.Thank you for your time.Good day.
Steve,
Being a responsible parent ain’t easy.
We’re obligated to know when our kids reach a level of maturity to be trusted with dangerous things like scissors, bikes, knives, guns, etc. We’re then obligated to teach them how to safely use these things. It’s tough being a responsible parent.
Kevin
I think you are on to something here. with just a little refinement and looting the Crosman parts bins this could be quite a formidable airgun. And for the price, you couldn’t beat it.
Everybody keeps talking about dangerous bb’s. Come on and think about this. Do you not think that a pellet can’t go through the eyeball and into the back of a skull.
Before somebody touches a gun they should be determined responsible. But even responsible people can have things happen to them. So as for as I’m concerned you have to treat the gun with respect.
Do you want to talk about air soft guns now. Its just a little plastic ball right. Well sorry they ricochet. And I bet it wouldn’t be good if you got hit in the eye. Well then what if its even a accidental hit straight to the eye from a air soft gun. Not going to be good I’m sure.
So responsible and respect are 2 words that come to mind about any type of gun in my book.
An shop really stocking AirSoft also puts cheap safety glasses near the area, if not full face masks.
Remember, a lot of AirSoft users are “skirmishers” — think paintball with smaller/faster/hard ammo. Safety gear is a given for them.
BBs tend to rebound back at the shooter — pellets will flatten out. Recall, the stereotype phrase is “YOU’LL shoot YOUR eye out”… Not “You’ll shoot eye out”.
Either way I don’t feel like getting hit by anything anywhere.
Here’s one for ya. Last year me and my brother was shooting his 9mm pistol at a soda can. It was on the ground about 50 yards out. There was a tree line about 15 yards behind the can.
Guess what he did a rapid fire at the can and just about emptied the magazine. All of a sudden we heard a whizz sound go right over or heads. Yep one of the rounds ricochet off the tree. We stopped for a while and re-thought how we placed targets after that. So that is always in my mind. Especially when I’m out in the woods shooting now.
I respect your opinion and agree with most of it. But . . . A young adult walks into Cabellas, Walmart, or a Big 5 chain. A Marlin 22 is under two hundred, sometimes a good 10/22. $250 will get you a 17 HMR. While rimfire ammo is difficult to obtain, it isn’t any harder to find HMR rounds than the heavy pellets that the Condor loves. The kid shoots open sights for a while, buys a scope later, spreads the pain. Or, he can order an MRod, or a Condor. He can’t shoot one, because no one he knows has one. He probably doesn’t know about pyramid air, BB Peltier, or any of the other outlet. He has to buy a pump and a scope because the gun won’t work without one. His friends tease him about how he could have bought three “real” guns for the same price. He pumps five to ten times and realizes he either has to start working out or get and source Scuba air, for another three to five hundred.
The guy with Walmart or Big 5’s $200 dollar nitro piston isn’t a young air gunner, it is a middle aged or older guy who wants a way to take care of the raccoon that is dumping his garbage and terrorizing his wife’s Mini Pug, and he wants to solve the raccoon probably QUIETLY.
BB and Dennis are on the right track with the $100 precharged and the 2000 psi pump. I believe most avid air gunners are the result of a happy accident, and not the result of good air gunning adds or limited choices. My happy accident thirty years ago was a gun store owner who told me he would sell me the RWS Diana for half of his sticker price if I could out shoot him at forty yards. Ten shots, him open sights, me a scoped 10/22, and the target at forty yards. He covered his ten with a quarter. Mine . . . Ehh, lets just say the US didn’t mint coins that big. I paid full price for the Diana, and have it today. What happy accident brought YOU to expensive airguns? It wasn’t the wide choice in your local gun store or discount mart, I guarantee it!
When we walk into Walmart, and the CrossaQuackaPeltier precharged is sitting there for a $99.99, and a little sign says Co2 is ten bucks, but buy this pump and never pay for co2 again, there are going to be A LOT MORE good air guns sold. Because every Red Blooded US lad had a cheap .22 before we spent the few grand we have tucked into our gunsafes. And that CrossaQuackaPeltier is going to be the gateway drug for a flood of new US airgunners!
Pickles
Amen