by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier
The See All Open Sight is revolutionary!
Today, I’m testing the See All Open Sight on the new TX200 Mark III that I’ve been testing for you. Because that rifle figures into today’s test so much, I felt it was important that you be able to examine the rifle’s accuracy in past tests — most importantly, the red dot sight test I just did in Part 13.
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Part 7
Part 8
Part 9
Part 10
Part 11
Part 12
Part 13
I also want to mention that See All is aware of the difficulty in mounting their sight on a straight-line rifle like the M4. They even mention it in the frequently asked questions on their website. So, what happened the last time I tested this sight was my fault for not checking all the information.
Mounting the sight
The first step was to mount the See All sight to the TX200. Since the rifle has 11mm dovetails and the See All has Weaver-width dovetail jaws, I used a prototype Leapers base that converts 11mm to Weaver/Picatinny. For this test, I used the same scope stop pin that I showed in the last test with the dot sight. The pin popped out of the hole on the first shot, so the base had to be remounted and the pin locked down again. After that, the base remained tight and solid throughout the test.
The See All Open Sight is mounted on a prototype Leapers 11mm-to-Picatinny base that has a built-in droop (correction for the barrel pointing downwards).
The base of the See All sight has no locking crosspins like those found on a Weaver or Picatinny sight. It has 2 vertical screws that bear down on the sight base and push the See All up so its jaws grab onto the dovetails of the base. Since the base I used has the crosspin slots for a Picatinny-type sight, I slid the See All until both locking screws were pushing down into the bottom of a slot, instead of on top of a locking ridge. I felt that would give a more secure attachment. But there were still some problems, as we shall see.
Sight-in
I sighted-in with H&N Baracuda Match pellets. They had tested well with the dot sight at 25 yards, and I felt they would be a good pellet for this test. But I had problems getting the pellet to go where I wanted. This is where I discovered that the See All sight behaves like a front sight and not like a rear sight. The sighting reticle must be moved in the direction opposite of where you want the pellet to go. The instructions included with the sight are very clear on this; of course, I wasn’t reading them — yet! There’s a marking on the right side of the sight that is supposed to tell you how to adjust the sight for windage, but I found it difficult to read.
I thought I’d solved the sighting problem and tried to shoot a first group, but the results were horrible. Pellets went everywhere! But within the first 5-inch, 10-shot group there were four holes together. Since I had seen the first hole through the spotting scope I knew the first 4 shots went to the same place, then the rest scattered everywhere. Pretty obvious what was wrong.
The sight was loose on the base! After tightening it down, I shot the first group for record. Ten Baracuda Match pellets went into 1.085 inches at 25 yards. It’s an okay group for open sights and an average spring rifle, but it’s horrible for a TX200.
The first group of 10 Baracuda Match pellets isn’t much of a group for just 25 yards from a TX200. It measures 1.085 inches between centers. The sight was loose again!
Then, I checked the screws and found the sight had loosened, again, during the ten shots it took to fire the first group! Now I knew what to do. Check the screws after every shot and tighten if necessary.
Crosman Premier heavys
I switched to Crosman Premier heavy pellets for the second group, fully intending to come back to Baracuda Match pellets at the end of the test. But this shooting was proving tiring, and I didn’t want to jinx the other pellets by shooting them when I was tired. I checked the sight screws for tightness after each shot on this string.
Ten Premier heavys went into 0.978 inches at 25 yards. You can see a smaller group of 7 within the main group. It measures just 0.451 inches between centers. That tells me the See All Open Sight really works, but I was still getting used to it. The shots outside the main group are from my aiming errors, I believe.
These 10 Premier heavys look a little better. The entire group is 0.978 inches between centers, but 7 of the pellets are bunched up pretty well in 0.451 inches!
I was learning to use the sight as things progressed. The space just above the reticle triangle is difficult to line up with a bullseye target — at least for me. But as things progressed, I discovered that I was aligning it faster and faster. I was learning to judge where the reticle was, even when I couldn’t see the tip. That’s no doubt what lead to those shots that are not inside the main group, and I think as I learn this sight more I will get better with it.
Crosman Premier lites
Next, I tried the 7.9-grain Crosman Premier lite pellet. By this time, I’d found it necessary to check the See All screws after only every 5 shots, and they were no longer loosening even then. Ten Premier lites went into a nice group that measures 0.686 inches between centers. It’s a very round group, which indicates I’m learning the sight picture as I go. But the Premier lite was also very accurate in the test using the red dot sight.
Now we’re talking! Ten Premier lite pellets went into 0.686 inches, with 7 of them going into just 0.423 inches.
Baracuda Match
Now, it was time to return to the H&N Baracuda Match pellets and see what I could do. I was still checking the See All screws for tightness after every 5th shot, but they weren’t loosening. This time, I managed to put 10 pellets into 1.259 inches; but as you can see, 9 of them went into 0.695 inches. It’s clearly my fault the group is as large as it is. The See All Open Sight can make it much smaller, if used correctly.
Ten H&N Baracuda Match pellets made this 1.295-inch group…which is horrible; but 9 pellets went into 0.695 inches, which isn’t too bad. Still, this pellet doesn’t compare with the Premier lites.
Conclusions so far
The See All sight does work as advertised. But you do need to read the instructions and follow them.
Small adjustments of the sight make very large changes in the impact point. Go very, very slow with your adjustments. And read the instructions to see which way to turn them. The markings for adjustment directions on the body of the sight are not very clear.
Plan on taking some time to get used to the sight. It does work, and I think it works well for people with poor eyesight; but it’s unlike anything you’ve ever used. Although it’s analogous to a dot sight, it works nothing like one in application.
I did find that I needed some light on the sight to see the reticle. I had the room lights on where I was shooting, which is something I never do with other open sights or scopes.
I think this sight may be better-suited to PCPs and CO2 guns than springers. But that’s just my impression from this first test. I’ll know more as the tests continue — which they will. I still think this sight is a significant new device.
My friend, Otho, is also testing a See All sight on some firearms for me. His eyesight is so bad that he hasn’t been able to use open sights for several years, so we’ll get a different perspective from him.
G’day BB,
How about an acetone clean and Loctite?
Cheers Bob
Bob,
Won’t that damage my skin? 😉
Seriously, Loktite is probably the answer for the screws.
B.B.
I’m short sighted, annoying so. So the idea of having 2 points to focus on appeals to me and is the reason i always go straight on to using a scope, and since i picked up a Bushnell Trophy 3-9×40 recently the range in shooting distances has improved no end.
But i used open sights for years and would love to use them again, for some reason i have never got on with dot sights and relegated it to my pistol crossbow. Mind you i might like dot sights more if i splash out a bit of extra cash on a decent one, the one i own doesn’t even make it on the cheapest EBay sights and was throw in as a freebie with the crossbow.
Learning to use the See All Sight can’t take more time than learning to shoot a new springer to the best of it’s ability, so with all things it a learning curve with the promise of some spectacular results in the end. Anyway it’s time to let the chickens out and feed the ferrets so i can get on a work on some of my air rifles, and guess what? One of them is a Mk IV Meteor with more problems than you can shake a stick at.
TTFN
Best wishes, Wing Commander Sir Nigel Tetlington-Smythe.
When you use “Dot” sights, be sure to keep you eye centered in the tube. Most of them have parallax issues.
Mike
BB why do you think the sight was coming loose at first? Do you think it was shifting into place because of the recoil? Even if the TX is supposed to be smooth maybe it still has enough kick to move it.
And maybe your kind of immune to the recoil from a gun after you have shot so many different guns for so long. I know my daughters both tell me they can feel a light recoil from some guns and I don’t seem to notice.
GF1,
Yes, the TX recoil and vibration was loosening the sight. Even the TX can do this.
B.B.
BB, did you try a low strength (removable) loctite or even some teflon tape on the screw threads? I think either should be enough. Vibra Tite is good for problems like this, too.
Derrick,
Yes, Loctite is probably a good solution.
B.B.
This thing sure seems interesting. It will be interesting to see how it goes on handguns…
I know most manufacturers seem to ignore airguns or label them as toys but I think it would have been nice and would have given them a advantage if our sport/hobby (job for the lucky few) would have been included in the development of the device.
J-F
Why was this sight made for wide weaver dovetails, without a crossbar and vertical clamping pressure rather than traditional sidescrews for securing it in place during mounting? What am I missing?
Hope the SEE ALL manufacturer rectifies this as well as introduce a model that will fit 3/8″ / 11mm dovetails.
kevin
Kevin,
They said they are thinking about it. I send them an email every time there is a new report on their sight, so they know what’s happening.
B.B.
B.B. and anyone else who can provide me with this information,
Off-topic for the day, but I am one of the many who fills his Marauder with a hand pump. The Marauder has a 215cc HPA tube, and I fill mine to about 2500psi, perhaps as much as 2600.
Roughly how long does it take to put 800 psi into a Marauder from a full, large, 4500 psi SCBA tank?
What is the rate of transfer to a 3000psi max. pcp gun from a 4500 psi tank? How slow would a compressor have to transfer HPA for it to be safe to fill directly to a rifle’s tank?
Thanks in advance for your expertise,
Michael
Michael,
I have always tried to keep the fill times to one minute, regardless of what I’m using as a tank. That keeps the heat from building too high. That was a guideline that Robert Beeman published years ago, and it is safe enough that I have stuck with it. My fills are usually 1,000 psi, so you can interpolate from there, I guess.
B.B.
Something B.B. has called on manufacturers to design and market is a high pressure compressor tailored to airgunners for significantly less than $2000. Omega has an $1800 4500 psi model called the “Super Charger Air Supply Station” which runs on 110v and has an output of roughly 1 cubic foot per minute, about one third the output of Bauer SCBA compressors. 3 CFM is too much too fast for direct connection to a gun, but what about 1 CFM?
A Shoebox with all the bells and whistles plus a shop compressor that meets Shoebox’s recommendations plus a 4500 SCBA tank comes to the same neighborhood of the Omega Super Charger alone.
Michael
Actually, I see I must correct myself.
A Shoebox plus shop compressor would probably run about $1400-$1450 and would not require a tank. It can run straight into the Marauder. Even with the smallest of SCBA tanks (in order to slow down the rifle’s fill rate) An Omega Super Charger compressor setup would run just over $2000.
Michael
Michael,
As B.B. said a tank can fill any pcp faster than you should. Opening the valve slowly and slightly to slow the fill is important.
As far as filling your pcp directly with a HPA compressor it depends on which one you use. The smaller HPA compressors/boosters like the Shoebox are designed to fill a pcp or a tank directly and will do it safely and slowly. The bigger HPA compressors like a Bauer, Nardi or Holucht are designed to fill tanks directly not pcp’s directly. The shop compressors you see at Lowes, Home Depot, Sears, etc. will not fill a pcp since they’re not HPA compressors.
kevin
Slow fill is the most important thing. If you ain’t gentle with the fill knob the 4500 psi tank can literally fill a Marauder in one second. That is very bad for the o-rings and other components in the gun your filling.
Slow and easy is definitely the trick.
I think it is a shame this sight does not come with a standard weaver/picatinny cross-bar setup. It would alleviate the problem of needing to tighten those rail-damaging set screws. A traditional two-bolt clamp (like any other set of scope rings, or mount adapter) would make this sight a real winner in my book. I am SO glad you go good accurate results from it. Now if they would make it more sturdy (I’ve never found set screws to hold well in high-impact conditions), this would be a real winner.
GF1
I found out what size those breech seals are, and it’s an easy one. No wonder that the pellets have to be pushed through. They are 7/32 I.D. which is .218″ .
twotalon
TT
How about that.
Did you maybe find out any info or had any thoughts about how to protect the o-ring. Routine oiling or some other idea? But that is interesting that the o-ring is smaller than the pellet size.
GF1
Air Venturi says to use silicone grease of oil once in a while.
twotalon
GREASE OR OIL .
twotalon
TT
Why 2 replies?
Oh I see.
And emphasis on SILICONE xxx or yyy
B.B.:
I have come to a conclusion similar to yours: it takes extra care and close attention to use the See All successfully. It is so different from anything I experienced before that the things I did reflexively to sight in or use the sight just didn’t apply. It is a mistake to think of this as an “open” sight; it is its own thing and not analogous to open sights.
I had trouble getting used to the sight picture, although with patience, it began to work. I had to use a six o’clock hold because the sight covers up everything on the target below the apex of the triangle.
The problem with this is when changing the size of targets. What is a six o’clock hold on a 4-inch bull is too high on a two-inch bull.
I initially had trouble adjusting the sight for elevation and windage. The task was easier on a pistol than on a rifle (no need to think of it as a front sight) but there are no clicks in the adjustments. That means you just turn the Allen wrench in the adjustment sockets and guess how much POI movement there will be. After a while, I caught on, and the adjustments proved to be very precise.
I had no trouble mounting the sight on a Beeman P1 pistol. I put a UTG 11mm-to-Picatinny on the pistol’s small dovetail, and the See All fit perfectly around the edges of the UTG and locked down solidly with the set screws. It did not move throughout thirty or forty shots and did not interfere with closing the P1 to pump air into the cylinder.
I can see, however, that this sight would be a problem on a springer.
My main interest was to find out if the See All was any better on a pistol than a traditional red dot. After finally sighting it in and getting accustomed to the sight picture, I was able to match accuracy with a red dot on the same P1 pistol. The sight seems very precise to me, and I shoot with it as well as I do with a red dot, at least in slow fire.
My difficulty came when I switched to a Ruger Mk III .22 target pistol. The See All was accurate, but it took me a long time to reacquire the target in rapid fire (only two seconds to get off each shot).
I might be able to get faster with more practice, but I have to conclude that I am better off with my red dot when shooting Bullseye competition.
At $100, the See All is too expensive for me to keep if it is not going to work for fast shooting on a rimfire pistol, but I think this is a terrific idea at the basic level, and I imagine many types of air guns would benefit. My P1, for example, which is obviously very slow to load, would be a good choice, but the gun costs only a fraction of the cost of the sight.
Leon,
Thanks for your detailed report.
B.B.
According to the manual, there are 16 hash marks on the adjustment screws (I didn’t see them on the windage side, but the elevation was visible). Each | represents 1″ at 100 yards.
While they claim to be parallax free, I suspect that only holds true for ranges beyond about 25 yards. Sitting my on a support and looking at something only about 10-15 feet away showed some parallax as I moved my head.
Two seconds? What luxury!
Granted, the “accuracy” needed for the CCW class was 8.5×11″ page of paper, but after the first familiarization round we did a series of:
1 sec per shot (one thousand /fire/, two thousand /fire/)
1/2 sec per shot (one /fire/, two /fire/ [actual count was one and, two and])
As fast as possible (/fire/, /fire/, … [one, two, three, …])
B.B. or others who know out there, do Halo (projection) sights have the same “parallax issues” that red dot sights have? Do you still have to keep your eye “centered” like a red dot sight? Thanks, Bradly
Bradly,
The only projection sight I have used other than a dot sight is the infinity circle in an M60A1 tank, inside the gunner’s coaxial machine gun sight. There was no parallax.
B.B.
Sweet! When can I read/see the review of that Tank? I’m looking forward to the grouping and FPS of the “big gun”. That said, I’m told the tanks (at least today) are very accurate. Bradly
Parallax is not an issue with Eotech sights which is what you are describing (halo). Some lower end optics use similar technology, but most likely have parallax issues. A number of red dots especially higher end models on the market are parallax free and even most cheaper models are past 50 yards.
Somebody stands to make a killing by machining an adaptor to Weaver rails for ARs. But that is a disadvantage to need light shining on your sight, certainly for tactical use.
Speaking of sights, have a look at this new technology for the army.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-army-testing-start-ups-190431690.html
Does this mean we are all going the way of the dinosaur? But if you can make sense out of their explanation, you’re doing better than me. I don’t see how the sighting system can affect the hold and the trigger control necessary for a good shot. For the trigger part, I’m still holding out for the voice-activated trigger…
FredPRofNJ, too bad about the helicopter, but I could have told you that serious helicopters, like 6 channel models, take a lot of practice. It took weeks on a simulator and then months with a basic model before I could even lift off. And I bought a particularly durable model that could handle lots of crashes. Unfortunately, I’m so busy now that I have no time to fly. I wonder how long it would take to get it back.
Matt61
Matt61,
Just watched the video at tracking-point.com. I can’t wait to own one of these guns 🙂
Edith
I just watched their video on youtube, the extremem distance hunting and it was impressive. What was not so impressive were the ignorant and hateful comments left below it.
Matt
I fly RC helicopters but not as good with them as I would like to be. I’m much, much better with RC planes. Well not to brag but I do the 3-D flying with the RC planes.
But flying a RC helicopter or plane is like they say. Just like ridding a bicycle. Once you learn you will never forget. I have not flown for months at a time. And when I fly again its just like I have been doing it every day. And I found that I still fly with the same skill level. So all I can say if you want to get better then as they say; practice makes perfect. 😉
And I didn’t have time to check out the link you provided. I will check it uot tonight.
Wow check out my spelling. Now I’m writing dyslexic.
“And I didn’t have time to check out the link you provided. I will check it (uot) tonight”
The trigger is essentially just a switch; a solenoid actually releases the sear when the computer concludes the gun is aimed properly for the computed trajectory to intercept the tagged target point.
One of the gun magazines reviewed the civilian version a month or so back… That did require the shooter to handle the trigger, but all the range/wind/temp adjustments for point of aim were handled by the unit (note — it is not, as I recall, a “scope”; There is no direct optical path for the sight, its an LCD monitor screen with computer generated overlays).
Matt
I watched the video on youtube.
Basically you high-light your target with one button (tag the target). Then you aim the gun as normal. You try to hold on target as normal then pull the trigger when ready. But the system will not allow the gun to fire until the reticle or dot intersects with the tagged target. Basically that wobble that we try to control doesn’t matter any more with their system. It knows to make the round go off when the reticle intersects with I’m guessing the center of the tagged target.
Sounds cool to me. What that would do is tell you that when you pulled the trigger and the round goes off instantaneously that means you were on target when the trigger was pulled. If there is a delay before the round goes off then you were not on target when you pulled the trigger.
As we used to say in the IT business, “When all else fails, RTFM.”
B.B.
I really enjoy my handguns but unfortunately I am not very good with open sights. However, I am quite good with red dot sights on them. The problem, IMO, is that they don’t look very good on handguns.
So I was wondering if you plan to test the SEE ALL on a handgun? If they work I would be very likely to try one.
G&G,
I do plan on it! In fact, the next test will be on a Beeman P1.
B.B.
I note that you have it mounted all the way to the rear of the base; about where a receiver peep sight would be…
I’d like to suggest you move it to the front of the base and try again. The further away from the eye, the larger the triangle appears, which may actually improve the speed of picking up the marker.
Granted, I’ve not actually tried the one that arrived yesterday on an actual gun — I’m thinking of using it on the Baikal/IZH in place of that overlarge red dot (the alternative is to stuff it on the X-5 BB pistol as that has a picatinny adapter; pity none of my defensive pistols has such a fitting — I’m sure this sight would have simplified the CCW class range session; picking up an in-focus triangle had to be faster than relying on a mental impression of three blurry white dots during the rapid fire stage).
Showed it to a guy at work who initially considered a gimmick that might not be fast to pick up… Then picked up a free banana at lunch and balanced the sight on top of it… THEN he was impressed by it.
Wulfraed
I’m ordering my See All sight tomorrow. And I decided it will go on my Discovery with the wood stock and Marauder trigger assembly that has been mounted on the Discovery since the Marauders came out.
And I believe you are right. I will mount my See All sight as for forward as I can. That is also how I mount my Dot sights.
Wulfraed:
“Conventional” Bullseye pistol competition is not the same as CCW or any of the action competitions, such as IDPA. It is an old discipline that calls for precision shooting at relatively small targets. The Slow Fire segment has no time pressure at all, but the Timed and Rapid Fire courses are standard at four seconds and two seconds per shot respectively, which are shot in two five- shot strings. Classic Bullseye is shot one-handed.
True Bullseye is shot in three stages–rimfire, centerfire, and .45–at 25 and 50 yards with 600 points possible for each stage.
My club pares this down to only rimfire shooting at an official down-sized target at 50 feet so we can get through a 600-point match in one evening, and we allow two-handed shooting, so we are not an official NRA competition but otherwise we follow the rules. We also shoot a centerfire match on a separate occasion, but we don’t do .45 (too expensive).
The Timed and Rapid Fire targets have a one-inch diameter X ring. The Slow Fire ten ring is about 3/4 inch.
You are correct that it would not be much of a challenge if the target was 8-1/2 X 11 like yours. That would have almost no interest.
I’m fairly good at rimfire Bullseye competition, but my old eyes take too long to get the See All back on target and find a steady hold in two seconds. A red dot is much faster for me, but with enough practice I might get the See All to work.