Two firearms made by airgun manufacturers: Part 1

by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier

Got a lot to cover today, so let’s get to it.

First up is the Daisy Manufacturing Company, now called Daisy Outdoor Products. Daisy is best-known for the BB guns they make, but did you know they also made firearms? That’s correct. In fact, Daisy made 3 different lines of .22 rimfire rifles — though one of them is only a rimfire by common categorization. That would be the Daisy V/L. V/L stands for Van Langenhoven, the last name of the man who invented the caseless cartridge technology Daisy used to make this gun. I’ve covered this before when I wrote about the new Daisy book published in 2012.

Although it’s commonly classified with .22 rimfire rifles, the caseless round does not even have a rim. There’s no priming compound in this cartridge. This caseless cartridge was made from a material that combusts when heated rapidly by the compressed air of a spring-piston air rifle. So, the Daisy V/L is, in fact, an underlever spring-piston air rifle that just happens to shoot caseless .22 rounds. Daisy made their V/L rifle in the late 1960s (1968 & ’69).

Daisy also made a line of bolt-action rifles called the Legacy line in the 1980s and ’90s. These rifles have weird diecast and steel receivers mounted in both plastic and wood stocks. But they’re not the guns I want to discuss today.

I have handled both the Legacy and V/L rifles, but I don’t know much about them. What I do know something about is a Daisy rimfire that is even less well-known than either of these.

I also wrote about airgun makers who made firearms in 2006.

Daisy model 8
In 1988 and ’89, Daisy produced an economical .22 rimfire single-shot rifle for Wal-Mart. They were supposed to have built 30,000 rifles, but the contract was either terminated or somehow not completed; and the actual number of rifles made is something less. The Blue Book of Gun Values says they made 30,000 of them, but Joe Murfin of Daisy told me about the problem with Wal-Mart and said they didn’t make that many. Something on the left side of the barrel has been machined off. This is on every model 8 I’ve seen.

Daisy model 8 machines area
All the Daisy model 8 rifles I’ve seen (about 10) have had this area of the barrel machined off. Something was stamped there.

This rifle is small. If you know what a Crickett rifle is, this one is just slightly larger. If you don’t know what a Crickett is, the Daisy rifle has an overall length of just 32-1/4 inches and a weight of 3 lbs., 1 oz. In other words, it’s tiny!

It has a painted action and barrel in a hollow plastic stock. The overall impression is — this gun is cheap.

Daisy model 8 rear sight
Daisy rear sight looks a lot like an airgun sight. It adjusts for windage and elevation.

Do you think that airgun companies are loaded with engineers wearing white lab coats? The Daisy model 8 looks more like something that was designed in high school shop class when the teacher was out on his smoke break. The designer is someone you all know — the kid without the eyebrows. The one who couldn’t hear out of his left ear. Later on in life, he was known as Stumpy; and before he turned 25, he disappeared completely.

What I’m saying is that this is a bolt-action rifle that’s designed with screen-door-latch technology. It began as an exercise to see how cheaply we could make it, and that was followed by two rounds of cost-cutting before corporate council pulled the plug for liability reasons.

Daisy model 8 bolt action
Model 8 bolt handle looks like common hardware! The receiver is a diecast part with a steel tube pressed in for strength.

Daisy model 8 with Crickett
Daisy model 8 (below) is just a little larger than a Crickett.

And I have one! Are they rare? I don’t know. Are they scarce? Most assuredly! Have some of them been lost over time? Almost a given! Are they worth anything? Not very much. This is not an heirloom gun — it’s a hair-brained gun!

I bought one just because of what it is. I also bought the Crickett to serve a basis for comparison. Both are small, but one (the Crickett) is designed by gunmakers, while the other (the Daisy model 8) looks like it was designed by McGuyver while he was in the throws of an acid flashback.

Yes, I have shot this rifle. No, it doesn’t shoot very well. In fact, it misfires about 25 percent of the time, which I attribute to a weak firing pin spring. Accuracy is on the order of 3-4 inches at 25 yards — so far. Maybe I haven’t found the right ammo, yet — ha, ha.

The Crickett
I said I bought the Crickett for comparison. I’m just throwing it in here because many more shooters are familiar with it than with the Daisy. Much of its design is similar to the Daisy model 8; but at every turn, you can see where its design exceeds the Daisy. I guess I would say the Crickett is just a small firearm, while the Daisy is more of a small example of what not to do.

Crickett bolt and peep sight
In sharp contrast to the Daisy, the Crickett bolt looks like a firearm bolt and the receiver is all steel. They even put a peep sight at the rear! Didn’t cost that much, but this is what designers can do.

I’ve also shot the Crickett, and it’s 100 percent reliable. While it’s no tackdriver, it will put its shots into 1.5 inches at 25 yards — and sometimes the groups are even smaller. In my estimation, the Crickett is a small, inexpensive firearm, while the Daisy model 8 is a cheap rimfire wannabe. Having said all that — who have I insulted? I sure hope your favorite .22 is not a Daisy model 8!

So what?
The point of this look is to see what an airgun manufacturer will turn out when they make a firearm. But maybe this Daisy model isn’t a fair representation because Daisy built this for their customer. Let’s look at another rimfire rifle that was made by a different airgun manufacturer, and this time they made it for themselves.

The Falke single-shot
Yes — that Falke. The same people who made the super-rare and interesting Falke model 80 and 90 underlevers and also the Falke models 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, and 70 breakbarrel spring rifles. We looked at a Falke model 70.

Falke single shot with Daisy model 8
Compared to the Daisy model 8 (top), the Falke single-shot is a full-sized rifle.

This rifle is a confusing firearm. On the one hand, the walnut stock is shaped nicely and hand checkered, the metal polish and bluing is even and deep, and the action is cheap and stiff to operate. What should be the simplest of all actions — a single-shot — is machined very well, yet it functions like it’s been rusting in the corner for decades.

Falke was one of those “anything for a buck” companies that arose in Germany after the war. I’m sure they would have disagreed with that assessment, but the fact is they had no plan of succession; and when the founder got sick in the late ’50s, the company folded.

Falke logo
Where have we seen this logo before?

They made at least 2 firearms. This bolt-action rifle is one, and I’ve also seen a stylized Remington double derringer in .22 rimfire.

I bought this rifle because it’s a Falke and because it looked so nice on the internet. When I received it, I found it to be even nicer than the photos portrayed. But the action is stiff and clunky! I never would have bought it if I’d tried it first. However, I believe I can correct most of this with some careful gunsmithing.

The rifle is full-sized at 40-3/4 inches overall, with a 23-inch barrel. The pull length is 13-1/2 inches. The barrel is nicely rifled, and the gun appears to be in 90 percent condition. The wood has been sanded, which is the only detractor from the overall appearance.

The front sight is a common post with a bead, but the rear sight has the same quirky elevation adjustment that we saw on the Falke model 70 air rifle! With luck, this rifle will shoot.

Falke rear sight
We saw a rear sight just like this on the Falke model 70 air rifle.

This is a bolt-action single-shot. It has a separate cocking piece that will cock the rifle by itself (without the bolt being operated), but right now the sear is under too much tension and the cocking piece cannot be pulled back all the way. The bolt cocks the action on closing.

Again — so what?
I’ve shown you 2 firearms that were made by 2 different airgun makers. My plan is to shoot both of them and come back to you with the results in the next report. I’ll do that as the rifles stand right now, but the Daisy really does need a stronger firing pin spring, and the Falke needs its action smoothed a lot.

Why am I doing this? Perhaps, to show the contrast of firearms and airguns made by the same maker. I think we have that in both these cases.

I know several of you readers probably own Daisy Legacy rimfire rifles, and I would like to hear what you think of them. If any of you own a Daisy model 8, you have both my apologies and my sympathy. And if anyone ownes a Falke firearm, I sure would like to hear about it!

149 Responses to “Two firearms made by airgun manufacturers: Part 1”

  • RidgeRunner Says:

    Unless you paid an outrageous amount because you just had to have it, which I seriously doubt, that Falke will likely turn out to be a diamond in the ruff.

    Quite frankly, the quality of the Daisy is not surprising really. Most everything I know of is made for youth, who in general have very short attention spans and in a short time move on to other interests or literally outgrow everything. Why make something of heirloom quality with a big price tag when it will be pitched aside in a short while anyway.

    I have often thought of getting a Cricket and restocking it. It seems that no one builds a quality single shot, bolt action .22 these days.

    • Derrick Says:

      Ridge, I think Anschutz makes a couple that you’d find appealing. (grin)

      • RidgeRunner Says:

        What I should have probably said was “It seems that no one builds a reasonably priced, quality single shot, bolt action .22 these days. Or any kind of action for that matter.” A Stevens Favorite would be real nice.

        Like the high speed air rifles, everybody fell in love with the semi .22s. I guess if you literally gave me a 10/22 I might keep it, but I doubt it. What I would like to see is a light .22 carbine with syn. stock and a biathlon type action. Five shot mag would be just fine. Forget the open sight stuff and put a pic. rail on top. Please don’t bundle a junk scope and mounts with it, thank you very much.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      RR,

      You get what I am trying to show. Good feedback.

      B.B.

    • Bradly Says:

      Ridge Runner, you can get a Cricket with a wood (walnut) stock and the gun cam be had in Adult sizes.Their web site, http://crickett.com/crickett_22_LR.php , shows all of these as well as a hand gun and a bolt action 20 ga shotgun. Another good made in the USA company. Bradly

      • RidgeRunner Says:

        I considered the Cricket because it is the only ‘new in stores’ single shot I have seen out there in recent years. I guess I have been hanging around Wally World too much. Derrick and others have reminded me that if I dig a bit, there are a few out there. As far as the Cricket is concerned, I do not think the quality is quite up to what I would be satisfied with, and in actuality, I really have no use for it, not even for my grandson. In 1959, my father bought me an used Iver Johnson Model X. In the very near future, I will hand this down to my grandson.

  • pete in the Caribbean Says:

    B.B.,
    Are you sure that Daisy Model 8 is safe to operate?? Your comments suggest otherwise.
    A ten foot length of twine tied to the trigger seem to be in order.

    Live long and prosper,
    Pete

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Pete,

      Thanks for thinking of me. I have already fired it about 50 shots. I did look it over very carefully before pulling the trigger the first time, and I believe the first couple shots were CB caps — just to make sure.

      It is definitely a rifle that’s right on the edge.

      B.B.

  • Mike Says:

    Welcome to February 28th! It’s -32 F here in the UP of Michigan.

    Mike

    • Robert from Arcade Says:

      Mike, A balmy -13 here last night in upstate NY, but because of a gusty wind the wind chill was like -30. I used to work at a small mom&pop resort about 15 mi outside of St.Ignace on the lake Michigan side, back in the late 1980′s. Great country up there.

  • steve Says:

    Good morning all,BB a few years ago my good Friend a collector of firearms has the Daisy.I found the no brass part very interesting back then and he explained how it worked.Anyway he said Daisy was I guess you could say force to discontinued this gun because their was no way to classify it in the retail end,perhaps it was fair to say it was the only morphadite fire arm ever made?He said the folks from above,put a end to it cause it was not a BB gun nor was it a powder burner.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Steve,

      Actually, the V/L made history. It was an air rifle, but BATF finally decided that it was ALSO a firearm, and because it had no serial number (year after they made serial numbers mandatory for firearms) and also because Daisy did not at that time have a firearm manufacturing license, they forced them to stop.

      The gun wasn’t popular anyway.

      B.B.

      • RidgeRunner Says:

        My feeble mind seems to recall the military playing around with caseless ammo for the rotary cannons on their aircraft. The idea was to save weight and space. Casings can be quite heavy and having to provide storage for the empties took up valuable space.

        The only real issue I could see there is the ammo was likely too fragile. That may be why no one has revisited this. If the ammo would store well and not crack and break easy and would provide consistent performance, I would likely pick up something like that. It would very likely be cheaper to manufacture.

          • RidgeRunner Says:

            Now that you mention it, I recall that experiment also. The one to which I refer is right after Vietnam, they started putting guns back on the fighter jets. Ejecting empty cases at high speeds can damage an aircraft, so they have to store them on board. Someone developed a cartridge that was made out of “paper” that would fit the standard cannon, but when fired became part of the propellant. I imagine durability was an issue. I’ll bet that was the same issue with that H&K.

        • Matt61 Says:

          I was thinking the same thing. Caseless ammo was supposed to be the next big step forward that never went anywhere.

          Matt61

          • Wulfraed Says:

            Caseless ammo would be big for the military — less weight of residual brass means more rounds can be carried in the field.

            No so much for the consumer market — For one thing: no reloading… You buy a factory load and that’s it.

  • chris in ct Says:

    Think of the Daisy like the $99 PCP idea ,you get what you pay for.

  • GunsmithHunter Says:

    B.B.!

    Webley was a firearm manufacturer that turned into an air rifle manufacturer. As all of you know, guys, Webley has been known for making quality air rifles – when they were made in the UK. Production is now moved to Turkey and the quality is poor.

    Eddie

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Eddie,

      Yes, when Webley made their airguns, they made them very well. The ones made in the 1920s up to the ’50s were made just as well as firearms.

      B.B.

  • Mark Says:

    I’m hanging onto my Weihrauch single shot 22LR, its a tad smaller than my 50s and is a great open sight plinker.

  • kevin Says:

    So the homework was…….”think of the airgun companies that have also made firearms.”

    Daisy and Falke were way down on my list of expected manufacturers to appear on the blog today.

    Weihrauch, Anschutz, Webley, Erma, FWB, FAS, or even Armscor or Krico was my guess.

    Interesting blog. As usual.

    kevin

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Kevin,

      Yeah, I sort of used that lead-in as a red herring.

      The Falke is so new to me that I still have tons to learn about it.

      B.B.

    • Wulfraed Says:

      Webley and Erma would never have come to my mind — so far as /I/ know, they started as firearms makers.

    • nyhunter Says:

      daisy actually made a few other models of rimfire, other than the vl and this little bolt gun that are equally as rare.give me a bit to get my coffee in me and i will dig them up. they stopped the manufacture of these guns , because as was earlier stated they had no firearms manufacturing license

      • nyhunter Says:

        they made the models 2201/2211,which looked like an overgrown 880 without a pump.it was a single shot bolt. the legacy models 2202/2212 were a ten shot rotary mag bolt gun, with a removeable barrel inside an octagon shroud that interchanged with a smooth bore barrel for shotshell use. these were introduced in 1988 and discontinued in 1990.finally, the legacy models 2203/2213 were a semi auto,22r, 7 shot mag. the 01,02,03 models all had a copolymer stock set. the 11,12,13 models were of hardwood or walnut.

  • MIke Says:

    Yes, single shot 22′s. I have a “Ranger” single shot 22 that belonged to my Dad. He used it starting in the 1930′s until he bought a Ruger 10/22 in the mid 1970′s. You still see Ranger 22′s for sale on the gun auctions from time to time. The first animal I ever shot was with that rifle. It was a dump rat.

    Mike

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Mike,

      I believe Ranger was a store brand, and I forget who made them. Maybe more than one company? As I recall, Savage/Stevens was one of them. They come up all the time at gun shows and I have seen about 3 different models of bolt action rifles with that name on them.

      B.B.

      • Anonymous Says:

        Yes, the name Ranger was used as a store brand, Sears I think. However, this rifle is from the Ranger Company which made guns in the starting in the early 20th century. In fact, the company was located in Gainesville, Texas until the 1970′s.

        Mike

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          Mike,

          I see. I guess there is a lot that I don’t know about these firearms.

          Thanks,

          B.B.

          • Robert from Arcade Says:

            We had a Ranger SS .410 when I was a kid, it was from Sears. Brown stained stock, bright chromed bolt and you pulled out and turned the cocking piece to make it safe. Was chambered for 2 1/2″ shells ,full choke. The safety was a fiddly ,stupid design. We just didn’t close the bolt till we needed to.

  • 103David Says:

    Dear Daisy,
    Just goes to show, just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should do it.

    The (well placed) reservations concerning the safety of the model 8 makes me wonder what would they have come up with had they had access to 3D printers. Yikes!

    That’s a good task for anyone; Try explaining to a non-engineer type why a “firearm” and a “thermoplastic” receiver are not a good combination. ‘Specially when placing the home-made device next to your face and pulling the trigger.

    As they say on “Myth-Busters,” Don’t try this at home.

  • Gunfun1 Says:

    The Daisy V/L with the case less rounds interests me.
    And this came to mind. When the trigger is pulled is there a delay before it goes off?

    Also I don’t know what it is about the Cricket but I always wanted one. Well I do know what it is.

    The size, the simplicity of the design, the weight, and the fact that it is a single shot for numerous reasons. Oh and the price. I think I saw one on sale advertised for like $79.00. I guess just me but I like them. They serve their purpose.

    And one last thing. I have been kind of changing my gun inventory around. And some guns have gone away and a new one showed up the other day. It has been driving me crazy because I didn’t have no time to mess with it for few days. But I put the Hawke scope on it last night after I got off work and shot about 60 shots through it. Yep its going to be a keeper. And I’m surprised because with its performance because its different from the other ones I have shot. And I will say more after I shoot it some more. And I was going to wait till BB did another test and posts a topic about it.

    Oh I guess you wanted to know what gun it is. A.177 cal. Synthetic stock Marauder.
    And sorry I had to tell about it. I’m happy. So you know what I will be doing this weekend. :)

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      GF1,

      There no doubt is a delay in the firing cycle of the V/L, just as there is in the cycles of all firearms, but it is so short that the shooter doesn’t notice it — I think. Maybe one of our readers who has owned a V/L can comment on that.

      I bought the Crickett at the same time as the Daisy model 8. Truth be told, I wanted a Crickett more than I wanted the Daisy. But mine is a more modern one. Apparently the early ones are better — shades of the BSA Meteor Mark IV!

      B.B.

      • Gunfun1 Says:

        BB
        When you said its ignited from the dieseling I thought maybe it was a longer than normal delay (however long a normal delay maybe) since another step had to happen before the projectile moved.

        And was it a bullet or was it a pellet that the V/L shot. Sorry if you said already. Running on low sleep today. And while I’m thinking about it. How much did the projectile weigh that the gun shot.

        And I really should get one of the Crickett’s just to have one. And if I remember right they sale them with the color laminated wood thumb hole stocks also. Call me crazy but I really, really like those type of stocks.

  • nonewjerseymike Says:

    The Daisy caseless ammo comes in straw like tubes
    and if you crumble some of it and insert it in the hollow
    of the pellet ou will increase the velocity.
    This info was in the first Beeman Air Gun Digest book

    • FrankB Says:

      Hi Mike! I had never read that….but it certainly is interesting.I have a box of just under 5,000 rounds of Daisy VL ammo.I have been meaning to do some careful experimenting with it before I try to find someone who needs or wants it.I have a HW 54el Barakuda,so I really don’t need a VL too….LOL

  • Bradly Says:

    I’ve always been intrigued by the Daisy VL. I used to see ammo for these often, but not so much anymore. I bought my son a Cricket 2 or 3 years ago. While he likes it, I think I enjoy it just as much. It is so light and compact. There have been times that I’ve went hiking and chose it over my other rimfires just because I can carry it all day and never tell it. Love this report…looking forward to the rest of it!

  • RifledDNA Says:

    B.B., I had asked about .22cal gas prisons and am curious that you didn’t mention umarex octane, doing research I found your 4 part review that sounded very promising. Im asking if you still think highly of that model? It’s at a good price point and the details you reported on sound exactly what im looking for,

    • Gunfun1 Says:

      Just putting in my 2 cents worth. BB is telling you the truth. You should wait for the Benjamin nitro piston 2.

      Its suppose to be easier to cock and it has a built in dampener to help with recoil and even vibration if I remember right.

      I have had some break barrel springer’s and nitro piston guns and this is my opinion because I know there is people out there that like a springer but I don’t. They have a unique character about them. If you don’t learn how they act they can take the fun out of shooting real quick.

      But on the other hand I’m waiting for BB’s review about one. That way I can see a little more about what the new NP2 is about. From what I have heard about them and videos that I have watched; I think it will be the one that may change my mind about a break-barrel springer/nitro piston gun.

      • RifledDNA Says:

        Thats why I asked about the octane, his review he said it was wicked smooth and the reverse piston had good recoil characteristics I have a ruger blackhawk elite and I’ve had tons of crosmans and love the umarex, such a smooth light crop trigger and everything seems less cheap. Plus i don’t feel like waiting. We’ll see but I think I’ll be sticking with umarex if in gonna buy chinese otherwise I’ll splurge for something german.

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          RDNA,

          If you read this blog you know the Octane has a trigger problem. It apparently can be corrected.

          The NP2 seems to be right as it comes.

          B.B.

          • RifledDNA Says:

            I did read that, someone said fileing the point of the trigger adjustment screw would smooth things out, do know if that is something you can do on any airgun?

            • RidgeRunner Says:

              Some triggers can be improved and some cannot. It will depend from model to model. There are also after market triggers for some models, but you should do your homework before getting one. I had a Gamo CFX and installed a GRT3 trigger in it. SWEET!

              Some should be left well enough alone as any modification could make them dangerous.

              If you save up your pennies, there are some airguns out there with some very nice triggers. I myself am having a hard itch to be pulling on a Rekord myself. I really hope that Crosman has it right this time.

              • RifledDNA Says:

                Isn’t that the truth? It’s like cars in their chances of quality, except each part has such an exaggerated effect on performance it only takes the smaller number of parts on the airgun to have the same ratio of problems car have. In just starting to get into modding any internals so im doing the research on triggers and pistons now before digging into a cheapo In about to replace. Reading ALL of B.B.s do it yourself blog reports and can’t believe how much Im learning compared to what I thought I knew. Thanks so much for all this hardwork B.B., I also noticed a good lot of you have been here quite awhile, props for that to because the responses have a ton of information too. “How this blog works” is 100%, its how it has and should.

        • RifledDNA Says:

          Also I have no care for how hard it is to cock, that’s a none issue for me and the octane has a dampener but I really don’t even want the dampener. Not to argue, just doing the “should I shouldn’t I” self hyping necessary to spend the couple hundred for an airgun.

          • Gunfun1 Says:

            RDNA
            The new design of the dampening system on the NP2 and the other design that the Octane uses with the reverse nitro piston is what helps eliminate the bad characteristics of a break barrel nitro piston rifle.

            They are supposed to be more smooth when they shoot. That should help to make the gun more accurate with the new design also. Well hopefully it works out that way.

            But as for as not wanting to wait to get a gun. I’m like that too. I hate when something gets released and it don’t start showing up for sale until months later. But I in my opinion think that the Benjamin/Crosman Nitro Piston 2 will be a game changer in the way a break barrel nitro piston guns shoot. If they test out to be what I think they will be like I may just have to get one.

            I have a Benjamin .25 cal. NP break barrel gun and it is a hard gun to shoot accurately. So the new design is what I’m waiting for.

            And have you looked at any other type of spring guns. I have one of these and its very smooth to shoot and is very accurate. The whole action is mounted on a floating rail system to eliminate what the shooter feels when the gun is fired. This the only spring gun I have now because of how nice it shoots.

            http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Diana_RWS_54_Air_King/398

            • RifledDNA Says:

              I think that floated action is a cool thing, surprised more done use it. My problem with me thinking the np2 will be very game changing is that the nps were already supposed to have changed the game, imo besides spring fatigue and functional temperature range,(which are benefits for sure don’t get me wrong) the improvement in shooting characteristics and recoil are hardly dramatic, I’ve heard alot of people say they’ve got springers that are smoother and I have felt that too. Again, not to argue with anyone, its one of those things where I’ve already decided from my experiences but Im not counting out the np2, in just tired of crosman as they’ve been about 85% of the airguns I’ve owned, maybe Im jumping ship too early but Im sure Ill be back, probably when all the kinks have worked out of the nps, till then In venturing on to different types and brands. Thanks guys.

              • Gunfun1 Says:

                RDNA
                No problem. But you got to post some info if you order something. Well and some details about how you like it. You know. I will be waiting. See ya.

                • RifledDNA Says:

                  Sure thing, Ill definitely let you know what I order( from pyramyd of course) and how I like it. Read below about my newest little piece of joy…. just got to say one more time,,, I LOVE FLEA MARKETS!!!!!

  • RifledDNA Says:

    Prisons? No no, phone, pistons,,, pistons, phone, pistons.

  • Mike U Says:

    My first firearm was an “Arminius” revolver with fixed sights and a 6″ barrel. The double action trigger was not bad, but the trigger blade was very thin. I think it was made by Weihrauch. These were initially sold in the Herter’s catalog for about $20, I think. Accuracy was so-so, but I did put a varying hare in the pot once with it, a 25-yard shot. Eventually it began spitting lead out of the cylinder gap, so I got rid of it.

    U.S.-made single shot rifles exist. Henry Repeating Arms makes one. There also is the Rascal, the Chipmunk, in addition to the Cricket.

    • Bradly Says:

      Marlin also makes a single shot bolt, Savage not only has the Rascal, but also a Mark line of single shots. If you throw in “break” barrels, H&R has those. The little Steven’s favorite isn’t listed as being made at this time. Sad as I like that little rifle.

    • Mike Says:

      If you check the gun shows, you can find an old Remington 510 single shot. One with a clean barrel is a tack driver with ammo it likes.

      Mike

  • zimbabwae ed Says:

    The Remington nylon 66 and 77 did not have a metal receiver. The nylon stock enclosed the barrel, and the bolt moved back and forth in a channel in the stock. The metal breech cover was cosmetic, except that it was grooved for a scope mount. Remington proved that a firearm did not need a metal receiver. These rifles were and are popular, and many shooters wish that they were still in production. I am not sure about the bolt and lever versions of this rifle, but they probably did not have a metal receiver. Ed

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Ed,

      That’s interesting. So you are saying that the pressure of the cartridge was contained inside the barrel? If there was no metal in the receiver, how did the bolt headspace remain correct?

      B.B.

      • RidgeRunner Says:

        These were closed bolt, recoil operated semi .22 rifles. The bolt and spring contained it, at least momentarily. There is not really that much there to deal with.

        The main purpose of the receiver is to hold everything together. If it does not have to deal with very high pressures, it can be made out of just about anything. Most PCPs have aluminum receivers. Many firearms could get away with such. Look at the Mattelomatic.

        The main issue is going to be durability. My BSA is 108 years old.

        • Mike Says:

          The Nylon series of Remington 22′s all have nylon receivers. They are great guns. The Nylon 66 is my favorite 22 semi-auto rifle. I own two of them. They have 14 shot tube magazines that feed through the stock. There are also two box mag versions, the Nylon 77 (5 shot) and the 10-C (10 shot). Both of these tend touchy in how the mags are adjusted in relation to the chamber. The bar that guides them can be adjusted (bent) to get the feed angle right. Once set they work well. I have a friend that has had a Nylon 66 since the 1960′s. Other than running a rod through the barrel from time to time in has never been cleaned but it still works!

          If you get a chance to buy a Nylon 66 in good condition, grab it!

          Mike

    • Robert from Arcade Says:

      I say it’s a similar idea to the Rocky Arms BP Breech Loading rifle of the 1970′s Those shot a .22 cal ball which was a #4 buckshot swaged down by the forcing cone of that rifle. The priming was a toy paper cap. Dixie sold them. I have always thought that a .22 or .25 cal PCP rifle could be built to shoot RB if it was rifled for them and had the forcing cone idea of that little muzzle loader.

      • JTinAL Says:

        Hmmm I’m not familiar enough with PCP to know but wouldn’t the
        back pressure from the forcing cone used to swage the ball damage the
        seals? Or are you considering a design that wouldn’t use o-ring type seals?

        • Robert from Arcade Says:

          JT , It’s the concept that I’m interested in. I’m thinking along the lines of a light weight , modern Benjamin 3120 but in PCP, rifled for RB only, with more pop. Maybe 10 goodshots per fill. Not a plinker or target gun. No benchrest gun, just 3/4″ groups at 20 yards,and maybe up to an inch at 40 with field holds. A rifle for realistic 40 yard hunting of typical airgunning small game animals like squirrels, ruffed grouse ,and rabbits, in typical upland cover. Using ammo that could be improvised using shot or cast from pure lead in a buckshot mould. No dependency on store bought pellets which are impossible to cast. I’d like to see no seals on the bolt like in the Crosman 101, 120, and the crew cut Sheridans, ball pushed through the forcing cone at the breech. In short, a modern breech loading air gun that would do the same thing as my TC Cherokee .32 ML but without powder ,cap, or noise. I see promise in the disscussion of the $100 PCP that was blogged the other day and why folks wondered how lead BB’s would do accuracy wise. I say make one to do it with bigger bb’s.

      • B.B. Pelletier Says:

        Robert,

        I once owned one of those ball shooters. They also came in .36 and .45 calibers.

        B.B.

        • Robert from Arcade Says:

          BB, How did it shoot ? With the tiny charge of powder they held , they probably couldn’t have been much use beyond 20 yards or so.I didn’t know about the .36 and .45 cal ones. Thanks for that infomation.

          • B.B. Pelletier Says:

            Robert,

            It was unfired when I got it. Still in the box. I could never bring myself to shoot it because of that. I finally sold it at a gun show a couple years ago.

            The .36 and .45 examples were what killed the gun. Many people realized that children would be able to shoot powerful firearms using toy caps and the company just stopped making them. As far as I know, Dennis Quackenbush has one or both of the large-caliber rifles.

            B.B.

  • zimbabwae ed Says:

    BB, The nylon 66 and 77 are straight blowback semi-auto rifles. The recoil spring held the bolt in place until the pressure dropped enough for the bolt to move back and extract the case. All blowback firearms work this way, and the nylon stock is tough. I have never seen or heard of a 66 that has been worn out, even though thousands of rounds were fired through it. The bolt is moving back and forth ,( surrounded by the nylon) in the part of the stock that would be the receiver in a conventional rifle, like a 10/22. The weight of the bolt caused enough delay or hesitation so that it did not start to move until the pressure dropped , and perhaps the bullet had already left the muzzle. Ed

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Ed,

      Thanks for that explanation. This is how the Wamo pistol works, as well. I shouldn’t have been surprised.

      B.B.

  • steve Says:

    Breaking news,not related to subject.Last squirrel of the season just got his ear pierced,25 yrds,Talon P,25 grn.jsb.Now back to BB.

    • Mike Says:

      This must be the day for it. I took a Red Squirrel out of my bird feeder this afternoon. I used my go to squirrel rifle which is a scoped Diana 52 in .177. DRT. The season on them never ends.

      Mike

  • zimbabwae ed Says:

    BB-I just checked the Remington nylon bolt action rifles. There were 3 versions, single shot, tubular mag, detachable box mag. All 3 used metal receivers The lever action version was like the auto loaders, no metal receiver. Numrich has a diagram of the 66, if you want to see the design of these rifles. Ed

  • nowhere Says:

    Seeing the single shot .22′s reminds me of the first time I ever went shooting with my Scout group. I would be willing to bet that just about everyone in Canada who is over 40 and has ever shot a .22 rimfire has put a few rounds through a single shot (and manually cocked!) Cooey just like we did that day.

  • Gunfun1 Says:

    I went to summer camp once when I was a kid. I think I was around 11 yrs. old. They had a archery range and a rifle range there.

    If I remember right the guns were single shot Crickett’s and we were shooting .22 cal shorts. That was one of the things I liked about the single shot .22′s. You could buy the cheap short rounds and shoot all day for a cheap price back in the day. And you didn’t have to worry about the lower power rounds ejecting like you would on a semi-auto tube magazine gun.

    And on the subject of single shots. When my cousin would come over when we was kids he would bring his over under rifle. It was a .410 shot gun and the other barrel was a .22 cal. barrel. That was a fun gun to shoot when we squirrel, rabbit and bird hunted.

    But back to the V/L. BB when you do part 2 see if you could put a picture of the chamber with the bolt open on the V/L. I would like to see what that looks like since there is no firing pin. And also a picture of one of the case less rounds if you could.

    • Gunfun1 Says:

      Should say lower power rounds not ejecting like what would happen with a semi-auto tube magazine gun.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      GF1,

      The V/L rifles were made by BSA, if I recall correctly. I gave one as a present once.

      The chamber area looks like the one on a TX 200 or a Diana 48.

      B.B.

      • Gunfun1 Says:

        BB
        How is the case less round made? I should say is it made with a powder that will ignite at a lower burn rate?
        That’s interesting to me that the dieseling generated enough heat to make the powder ignite.

        You talked about the guns that use the toy gun caps to ignite some guns. That’s a flash so I see how that would ignite the powder. But the dieseling is just heat from the pressure. I didn’t realize that the dieseling from a air gun could create that much heat.

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          GF1,

          How it works is part of the patent. It isn’t conventional gunpowder.

          The air in a breakbarrel reaches 2,000 degrees, F, according to Robert Beeman.

          B.B.

          • Gunfun1 Says:

            I guess that’s why the smoke comes out the barrel if you shoot the light weight pellets or dry fire a spring gun (how would I know that; something like I fired a cleaning pellet once). Oil burning off is the smoke that is seen I suppose.

            Hmm 2000 degrees. Well I guess that should ignite something.

  • RifledDNA Says:

    Guys got to let you know how excited I am right now, just bought a bushnell 1.5-4.5×21 sportsman scope at the local flea market for 20 $ !!!!! Its brand new condition, exactly what I’ve been looking for, now just need the new gun to put it on! Flea markets make me so happy sometimes, you folks have any buried treasure stories?

    • RidgeRunner Says:

      What kind of parallax does it have? Does it change when you change power?

    • RidgeRunner Says:

      I hit the yard sales all the time. I have picked up a Ruger Air Hawk air rifle, a Crosman 717 pistol and Beeman/Webley UK Tempest pistol for great prices. I live in a rural area and see nice firearms and bows at yard sales all the time.

      • RifledDNA Says:

        Not sure about the paralax but it has an adjustable focus that’s crystal clear right up to a foot in front of my face, eye reliefs at 4 inches. My wife’s uncle might be GIVING ME a maurader woods walker pistol, he’s got dozens of high end airguns and said he might give me one, but you know how that goes, might take awhile. That would be unbelievably cool.

  • steve Says:

    need to ask for your opinions.Got a Benjamin pump seems to be going out. I ordered the grease for it threw PA and it helped for a few months,now its starting to almost hang up or stick about middle way threw the pump motion,then it will just do fine for a while.I have never been inside one yet.Is this something one should send back for repair or would it be probably be replaced seals etc.? Can you order a kit and rebuild it?

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Steve,

      I used to “fix” these pumps for as living. Believe me — you DO NOT want to try it!

      It is a hit or miss kind of thing. You need a very clean environment in which to work.

      There are those who will tell you fixing a pump is no big deal. I have talked to them at length and discovered they don’t fix every pump they work on. Some work and others don’t.

      My advice is to send your pump in for servicing.

      B.B.

  • RifledDNA Says:

    Wow In having almost the same problem with my blackhawk, I took it out of the stock and degreased and put it back together and loctited. That’s it. When I cocked it there’s a clung clung clung through the cocking stroke, I took it back out and there’s little rub marks on the spring, what the heck?! I literally didn’t touch anything. Why did it do this and how do I fix it? It seems to be fine besides the little bit of noise and obviously something shifted and I don’t want ti ruin the spring.

    • RifledDNA Says:

      I figured it out, while investigating the linkage and slot on the piston I lifted the barrel and didn’t keep the linkage down so it wedged the slot between the piston and cylinder wall. Opened it back up and smoothed out the slot and after a few shots its settled back into place. Live and learn!

  • rob Says:

    so when will you give the daisy 880 or 901 a fair review?

    i feel like my 880 is way better out of the box than my 1377+1399…, but they are also equal.

    Daisy is true to everything a Crosman is or more … until you pass ssp/msp tech. still top class. great intro to shooting. daisy is more interested in building the next generation of shooters. Crosman is looking for our money and finding it. daisy wants to get kids shooting.

    one thing i think some people believe is that daisy is youth oriented. it’s true, but that doesn’t preclude a daisy product from being effective. also, youth seem to embrace the trends and innovation….even if it’s crappy, in two years they will move on. in 25 years some “old-timer” will tout that same product as apox: awesome-on-a-stick. examples: check out what daisy was doing while Colman had a Crosman subsidiary (1980′s &1990s).

    another review of the new-production daisy 25 would also benefit the young/new shooters. also old-hat-types would appreciate the engineering inside.

    have you seen the daisy 74? it looks to be a semi-auto bb shooter with the trajectory of a regular Red Rider-style bb gun. i wonder if it gets all 200 bb’s out on one co2 cart..

    thanks,
    rob

    • RifledDNA Says:

      Your so right about Daisy, they make cheap toys for the most part but when we advance into the sport and look for higher quality guns and ammo we lose appreciation for the cheapo entry level stuff that for the most part everyone starts on. I know I started out with their pistols and my grandfather taught me on his old bb repeater. If not for 20$ marksman pistols and daisy repeaters we wouldn’t have had anything. I’m not knowledged on any of their newer better quality products but those aren’t the ones that make me love the daisy company. I still pick up “disposable” co2 pistols when I have the urge to squeeze the trigger as fast and as many times as I can, empty a few boxes of co2 cartridges and then sell the lot of it and get back to my rifles.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Rob,

      I will review the 880. But you don’t need to denigrate Crosman to praise Daisy. Both companies have done a lot for the youth shooters.

      I’m not going to review the Daisy 25 again, because the last report was thorough.

      http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2010/10/daisy-no-25-part-3/

      The Daisy model 74 is a possibility for the future. I’ll keep it in mind.

      B.B.

      • Desertdweller Says:

        I would like to see the Daisy 880 reviewed also.

        I have two if these. They are flashy-looking guns with their white trim.

        My favorite, though, is the now-discontinued 856. No bb port to lose a pellet in, and the forearm is a lot easier on the hand to pump.

        They are both good starter guns.

        Les

    • Robert from Arcade Says:

      I like the Daisy 880, we have three, a older one that I bought at a flea market and repaired, a .22 cal SG , and a new 880. The SG .22 is my favorite, and I wish Daisy had not discontinued it. I also share DD’s fondness for the 856. Mine was another flea market find that needed a barrel (shot tube as Daisy calls them). Daisy 880′s are easy for kids to pump up ,but Crosmans 2200 &2100 are harder shooting, and more durable IMO . There is no free lunch.

  • RidgeRunner Says:

    This is waaay off subject, but last night I was watching the boob tube and on Mythbusters they were investigating whether a ping pong ball could be propelled fast enough to be lethal. They built a “PCP” airgun for the experiment.

    It had a twenty foot barrel. By sealing the barrel with packing tape and pulling a vacuum in the barrel and suddenly opening the valve on a tank with 500 PSI air, they propelled the ping pong ball out of the barrel at over 1600 FPS! They “shot” a pork shoulder with it at about a foot from the muzzle and determined that though it would cause serious injury, it would not likely be lethal.

    • Gunfun1 Says:

      RR
      And I bet you knew I would have something to say about the ping pong ball cannon when you were making the comment.

      I would like to know what a ping pong ball weighs. I don’t know off the top of my head. That way we could figure out what kind of FPE (foot pounds of energy) it was making.

      Think about this. A ping pong ball is much lighter than a potato slug of about the same size. I wonder what kind of FPE the potato slug would make. Obviously it would be some what more. I’m sure the potato slug wouldn’t make as much FPS (feet per seconds) as the ping pong ball though. But I would think the potato slug would have to hit harder.

      Either way I wouldn’t want to get hit by the ping pong ball or the potato.

      • Fred DPRoNJ Says:

        GF1,

        wanted to update you and the blog on my latest project to get my AirForce tank/valve to reseal after installing a TalonTunes Tank Adapter. I got home from my business trip this week and had received the new delrin plug and spring during the week. Installing yesterday and pressurizing the tank resulted in no change – still a significant leak coming out the AirForce valve. As a last attempt, I will use some polishing compound and try to lap the valve and plug to obtain an airtight seat. If that still doesn’t do it, then it’s a call to AirForce to send the valve and perhaps tank, back to them for them to work on.

        The air leak is definitely coming from the center of the tophat installed in the valve meaning the delrin plug isn’t making an airtight seal.

        This is what happens to me when I disturb things that are working properly.

        Fred DPRoNJ

        • Gunfun1 Says:

          Fred
          I have that same luck also. I should of learned my lesson many times. But that gets me also when your trying to improve something then another problem arises.

          But this comes to my mind and other people here on the blog I’m sure knows better than me. But that piece behind the top hat and that plug your talking about. Is it supposed to be set at a certain depth were it screws in to the bottle.

          I’m looking at my standard bottle from my Talon SS and it looks like it is below flush (the plug that is behind the top hat) if you know what I mean. Maybe if you have it flush some part of the valve is contacting the side of the bottle on the inside. In other words the valve can’t come up and close completely. It doesn’t take much for those types of valves to leak when they don’t contact the sealing surfaces correctly.

          I’m probably not explaining very good. And I also wonder if other people had the problem when they tryed to install that brand of adapter.

          • Fred DPRONJ Says:

            Gf1, I don’t think that’s the issue here. The front part of the Deleon plug is hollow and his into the stem on the tophat. The top hat and plug are pushed forward by a spring on the other end inside the valve that pushes the tophat and plug forward with the plug sealing the hole or orifice inside the valve. Hit the other end of the today and it forces the tophat in and moving the plug off the orifice. Depth of the brass fitting doesn’t come into play here.

            Fred DPRoNJ

            • Fred DPRONJ Says:

              Darn auto spell check!

            • Gunfun1 Says:

              Fred
              I wish I knew more about the AirForce valves but I don’t.

              But here’s a thought. What about a bent tube that the top hat goes on. That would cause a problem with the valve seating right if it was bent in the right place. Like closer to the valve seat on the inside of the bottle.

              Well bummer about the bad luck. But at least it will be another thing learned about these wonderful air guns when you find out whats wrong. Again let me know whats up when you get it figured out.

  • steve Says:

    What better advise then from the one who has been there.BB,I was a goldsmith for 25 yrs.and believe me I understand just anybody off the street should not attempt certain things as I would run across from time to time repairing fine jewelry.So advise well taken and when it decides to completely stop I will send it in or maybe send it in asap cause hunting season stopped the 28th and so there’s going to be some slack time .But not to be rambling here as I can do,I will be ordering that 24″ barrel for the talon p and l just don’t want the expense of a repair of the pump and the barrel at the same time.So the unwise kid in me says get the barrel cause the pump is still working and if the pump freezes up then i will deal with that when it happens.Thank you for the reply!Good day.

  • steve Says:

    Myth busters would have to be the best job on planet earth.Maybe even better then BBs. Sorry BB.Things that go boom have always give me a terrible sense of satisfaction.

  • Mark T Says:

    Good morning, It is a wet Sunday morning and I thought I would take this opportunity to introduce myself. I have been one of the invisible air gunners for decades. I’ve read quotes here that only “accurate things are fun to shoot”. Accuracy certainly enhances my fun shooting anything. I remember making a sight for my sling shot when I was a kid. In the 80′s i bought a RWS 45 and a Beeman P1 and have shot many thousands of shots through them. I have spent many thousands of hours and $ in archery and various powder burning activities. If it is accurate, i enjoy shooting it. Last November I stumbled upon a u-tube video that used a high speed camera mounted on a Marauder. Since then the world of air-gunning has exploded for me. The world of PCP’s was completely unfamiliar to me. I have many years of blogs to catch up on. My wife thinks I’ve lost my mind, I have to put it down now and then to remind her that she is still the most important thing in my life. BB, your reports have been very enlightening, and motivating. My bank account is going to take a hit soon. It will be a TX200 or a Marauder. I am juggling the need for the extra stuff for the PCP compared to the springer, and in that area I do have a question. Using a 80 cubic foot scuba tank filled to 3000 psi, aprox how many fills should I get when filling the marauder to 2500 psi?
    Thanks, Mark

    • Matt61 Says:

      Welcome Mark. Those are good choices for your next airgun. I’m a little envious since my set of airguns is so satisfying that I can’t justify any additional purchase. But I always love to hear about them.

      Matt61

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      MarkT,

      Welcome to the blog! And I apologize to your wife for what is about to happen.

      As for the fill question, I have never tested it, but I would think you could get about 15 or more full fills to 2500 psi from an 80-cubic foot aluminum tank that starts at 3,000 psi.

      B.B.

    • Gunfun1 Says:

      Mark
      The TX is definitely a quality gun. But here is a word of caution. If you get a PCP gun you will be hooked. And I’m pretty positive when I say that.

      So here is something to think about. If you buy that wonderful TX. Is it going to be the last air gun you will ever buy? Or will there be more springer’s in time.

      Now about the PCP guns. Support equipment costs. And the question comes up a again. Will you only buy one PCP gun. Or will there be more to come. If you only will honestly buy one then the springer would be the choice. But if you will honestly get more than one gun then the support equipment justifies itself when you talk about PCP guns.

      I myself found that once I got one and experienced what PCP’s were about I was hooked. I would say if you get a chance some kind of way try a PCP gun before you make a choice. Well even if you get a PCP gun you can still get a springer that doesn’t need no support equipment later on.

      Sorry but I just think your about ready to have some fun either way.

      • klentz Says:

        Kind of depends on Mark’s goals and needs as to whether a springer or pcp is best suited for the task. He’s had a Diana 45 since the 80′s so it seems he wants to upgrade to a higher level of accuracy? Don’t know but hope Mark provides more detail about his motivation for a new airgun. Maybe we could make the decision easier but with this gang of enablers we’d probably make it more difficult LOL!

        kevin

        • Gunfun1 Says:

          Kevin
          Your probably right. I guess I’m jumping the gun so to speak. But when he mentioned Marauder in there I thought maybe he was thinking PCP also.

          Anyway I should be quiet. I’m sure we will no more of what he thinks. I hope anyway.

          • klentz Says:

            Gunfun1,

            He did mention a marauder. Might be perfect for his needs. Just don’t know.

            No reason for you to be quiet. You’re trying to help! Carry on.

            Kevin

            • Gunfun1 Says:

              Kevin
              All good. I just get excited when somebody gets that air gun bug. I remember when all those choices started running through my mind. About what gun I should get. Heck I still have that problem. :)

              • klentz Says:

                Gunfun1,

                Understood.

                Reminds me of the story about the two bulls standing on the side of a hill talking about their plans for the cows in the valley below.

                Just take your time, be patient and try all airguns.

                Kevin

                • Gunfun1 Says:

                  Kevin
                  Couldn’t be said any better than that.

                  Now I wish there wasn’t so many choices in air guns. Cause I sure the heck have been trying them.

                  Just joking about wishing there wasn’t so many choices. I’m actually really glad there are so many air guns available now days. It is a good time to be a air gunner thats for sure. There was cool stuff available back in the day. But who would of thought that a computer would ever control a air gun. What will be thought of next?

            • Mark T Says:

              Thanks for all of the input everyone, no need to hold back on any of your thoughts, let them out. The Beeman P1 has been a great shooter for all these years, the Diana 45 however has a long story that goes with it. Many thousands of shots, teaching the kids safe shooting practices and the value of good equipment. About 15 years ago unfortunately the Diana suffered a pretty badly bent barrel. Bent to the left, likely someone sat on it while on a bed or sofa. no one ever fessed up, Possibly happened and perp was unaware. Might have even been me. So what do you do with a Diana 45 with a bent barrel??? I figured i could not make it any worse. I bent it back! Thankfully the breach has flat sides and top so I was able to use a straight edge to use as a guide. Miraculously it shoots quite well. I had never done any extensive accuracy testing on it, but It did not seem any worse for wear. Forgot to mention that I put a Beeman peep sight on it sometime in the 90′s. About 5 years ago i decided to put one of my Dad’s old scopes on it. The result was very disappointing. I had heard that the recoil of the springers was too tough for many scopes. I tried a different scope with the same results. I chalked it up to an old worn out gun with a bent barrel and put it in the corner for a few years. As i mentioned in my first post i discovered this blog last November, found it to be very interesting. Learned about springer recoil, and the droop of Diana guns. (even after being bent and re-bent it needs the scopes to be adjusted down a along way). I got a utg scope, rings, Diana pic mount to adjust for the droop. Very interesting results. It shoots a very tall narrow group. Initially it shoots a group about 3/4 inch at 20 yards. All things considered pretty good. After a few shots the group starts to wander up and down. Still 3/4 inch wide but as much as 2.5 inches tall:( I took it all apart and put it together again, fearful of tightening the rings and base screws too much. seems ok. Initially had good results, then started to wander up and down again. I Don’t have a chronograph (yet). BB, my wife thanks you for that apology:) i’m wondering if I might be experiencing some velocity fluctuation contributing to my vertical spread. I have used silicon lube in the chamber, but have not lubed the main spring. Thinking it will just get gunked up, but i do see that some owners do it. I have re-installed the peep sight on it and I get a pretty consistent 1.25 inch group usually as high as it is wide. Makes me think it is a scope issue. The peep is mounted on the dove tail rail like the scope. Gettin late, got go to bed. Thanks all.

              • kevin Says:

                Mark T,

                I agree with you.

                I think you have a scope problem on the diana 45. Sounds like you’ve adjusted the elevation (and maybe the windage) on that scope too close to the end of its’ adjustment and the erector tube is floating/bouncing around inside your scope.

                Here’s one suggestion. Adjust the windage and elevation on your scope so that they are back in the middle of their adjustment range. Shoot a few pellets at 25 yards. Bend your barrel so that your pellet strike matches the poi (Point Of Aim) of your scope. Try to bend the barrel to match the aimpoint of your scope within an inch. Use your elevation and windage adjustments to correct the last little bit.

                When was the last time you cleaned the barrel on that diana 45?

                I’d also suggest sending your gun to a reputable tuner and have them put a fresh spring in it, a new piston seal, new breech seal, new lubes, adjust the trigger to your specs, etc. When you get it back it will feel like a new gun.

                After this, you can decide if you want a TX200 or want to enter the world of pcp’s.

                kevin

                • Mark T Says:

                  Hey Kevin, I ordered an M-rod this week. see my reply to Gunfun1 in this same string for the details. Thanks for the help.

              • Gunfun1 Says:

                Mark T
                Just make sure you post what you decide to get and some shooting results of course. And just curious on the Diana; Have you tryed the famous Artillery Hold that BB is famous for. It does help with some guns that are temperamental.

                Any way good luck with both accounts.

                • Mark T Says:

                  Thanks Kevin and Fungun1. I will definetly keep you posted regarding my future ventures with airgunning. Re-bending the barrel, that is a intreging thought. I have experimented with shooting groups at the center of the scope’s adjustment range but only for evelation and got the same tall narrow group. It was shooting a foot low at 20 yards, but the same group. I have not however checked to see how far from center of adjustment i am regarding windage, I will definetly check that soon. I have cleaned the barrel with solvent and a brass brush and patches, it did not seem to make a difference. What do you think about lube for the main spring? Will it just cause the spring to collect dust and crud? or should i lube it? Regarding the artilary hold, When shooting off hand i have used what i think would be a version of it for a long time. I keep my wrist straight and bend my fingers over. I rest the gun across my knuckles and the back of my fingers, and support the gun just ahead of the trigger guard. This hold does not grip the gun. However for accuracy testing I rest the gun on a adjustable Hoppe’s rest on my bench. I have seen that BB likes to use the artilary hold using his hands while bench shooting. I still have a interesting situation, initially when I first start shooting, my groups are satisfactory, after 12-16 shots the group spreads out vertically. I am a little embarrased to admit to all of you freezing in most of the United States, I live on the coast of central California, I rarely shoot when the temp is below 55 degrees, and usually is 60 or better. I can’t help but wonder if the gun warms up some, and the bent barrel moves with the temp? Any thoughts? I have to admit that the M-rod is calling my name. The simplicity and the beauty of a tx with a walnut stock is attractive too, but I’m leaning towards the PCP. now all I need is a big chunk of overtime ($’s) Someone asked why I was interested in these two guns? definetly the accuracy. To spend half the money and still want the best might be a waste of that money. If you know what you want and it is within reason to get it, I think I should get it.

    • Gunfun1 Says:

      Mark

      First I hope this posts in the right place. It was going to get thin down there if I posted after your last reply.

      But yes that’s definitely a artillery hold in my books.

      And you talk about temperatures where you live. I live in the mid west. You want to talk about temperature change. If I make a whole day out of shooting I can see 40 degrees in the morning all the way up to 90 degrees in the afternoon depending on what time of the year it is. And yes I have definitely seen my POI (point of impact} change in a day of shooting. I myself believe that the heat definitely makes things change.

      But here is the good thing about that. You are aware of the change that is happening. Now you need to note that on paper or the target that you just shot with that gun. And if you have more than one gun make sure you write down on the target what gun it was. And give details in the notes about how long you shot and what temperatures where like and so on. I’m pretty sure it will take you only a few days of notes and I think you will see a pattern in your guns shooting. You don’t know how many notes I made on my targets when I got serious about accuracy with my air guns. I thought I remembered how a gun was shooting then went back and read my notes on the target about that gun and found out that I remembered wrong. So notes are a good thing.

      And I wont say no more about the TX or the Marauders any more because I kind of think I know what your going to do. But I will wait for the surprise.

      And as I say. If you ain’t having fun then why are you doing it.

      • Mark T Says:

        Gunfun1, I set the scope to it’s center of adjustment for both windage, and elevation and shot a few groups. I got the same tall narrow pattern. I also used BB’s instructions for centering the recticle , it was near the physical center of adjustment. I had to hold the gun 8 mil dots low to hit the target, and got the same pattern for the groups.
        Last weekend a incident at work brought about a large chunk of overtime, I ordered a .177 synthetic stock Marauder and most of the stuff to get me started. I would have preferred the wood stock but they are backordered until July. Synthetic is ok:) I am excited. I ordered a Chrony too. I’ll check the Diana and see if I’m getting any velocity variation. After that the peep sight goes back on the Diana, and the scope goes on the m-rod.

        • kevin Says:

          Mark T,

          Very excited to hear that you’re entering the pcp world, A .177 Marauder is a good choice. Make sure you clean the barrel using B.B.’s jb bore paste method before you begin shooting that gun. Don’t ever use solvents in airgun since solvents can eat seals.

          Since your Diana 45 sounds like it has barrel droop (shooting so low) either bend the barrel as I suggested or get a drooper mount. Barrel droop is common and so are both of these “fixes”. Here’s the link to a drooper mount if you’re not willing to bend your barrel to correct this issue:

          http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/UTG_Scope_Mount_Base_Fits_RWS_Diana_34_36_38_45_with_TO5_Trigger_Compensates_for_Droop_Stops_Scope_Shift/2298

          Let me know about your progress with the Diana 45 and the new .177 Marauder!

          kevin

        • Gunfun1 Says:

          Mark T
          Glad to here that your getting a new gun. I think you will be surprised with the synthetic stock Marauder in .177 cal. I just got the exact same gun you have a couple of weeks ago and I love it. PA had that combo sale and I couldn’t resist getting one. I think I may sell my .177 cal. wood stock Marauder now. And The chrony is a wise choice without a doubt. I think that you may find something out with your Diana after you get it on the chrony.

          When you get some shooting time on your Marauder. I like to know what you think. And also the results of the chrony and the Diana. Thanks and again update us on your results.

  • Matt61 Says:

    These guns are kind of neat but where we looked at airguns trying unsuccessfully to be firearms, this looks like the reverse case of firearms trying to be airguns and not succeeding much better.

    /Dave, you’ve done it! Bulls and Grizzly bears have a hump of muscle on their back to enhance their strength, and we humans have a hump in the midsection to assist lying down for long periods of time. He he. I see you are a kindred spirit.

    Matt61

  • RidgeRunner Says:

    Well, it seems a Daisy VL owner is reading this blog and decided to cash in on the interest.

    http://www.airguns.net/classifieds/show_ad.php?adNum=76221&adSort=&StartingAd=0&NumberOfPages=6

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      RR,

      Yes, and he is trying to sell a firearm through airgun channels. I hope the ATF and FBI don’t get wind of it.

      B.B.

  • Heavy Metal Says:

    In keeping with the point of this article, which is air gun manufacturers who also make/made
    firearms, I give you Feinwerkbau. Yes, their engineers run around in company lab coats/apparel.
    Yes, both their air guns and fire arms are Olympic quality. Other equally impressive manufacturers: Anschutz. Steyr come to mind. All produce precision products which are apex predators of their genre.
    An example of German fussy attention to detail:
    While on a layover, I once visited a simple BMW motorcycle dealership in Mainz. The service bay looked like an operating room. All the tools neatly arranged, floor spit shined, technicians clad in
    company garb. It all exuded a high degree of “fussiness”…..the kind of fussiness that provides
    pinnacles of “technological art”.
    Cheers,
    Karl

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Karl,

      Welcome to the blog.

      Feinwerkbau also makes blackpowder target guns, along with everything else. And they are just as fussy as everything else.

      B.B.

  • steve Says:

    Mark T,welcome.Your not alone here in the PCP world.I only own two pcps and I also AM so content with those two I just can’t see dishing more dollars for more guns because these two for the money for my need can’t be beat for nearly hole in hole accuracy.And my wonderful wife jokes to her Friends that she is the “Marauder Widow” when squirrel season opens.For the money I can and time that I have behind the sights of a Mrod,you can’t go wrong.Also I’m sure you have read all the reviews here at P.Air.Truthfuly,I would like to have one of those $1200.00 + top of the line pcps.But from what I have read,the Mrod will hang in their with any of them.Good luck what ever choice you make,its all good.

    • Mark T Says:

      Thanks, Steve I am leaning towards the M-rod. I just need a big chunk of overtime to pull it off. I’m patient (for a while) , for me to spend half the money and be disappointed is a waste of that money.

    • Mark T Says:

      Steve, what is the other PCP?

  • robert Says:

    I seen the daisy 22′s at their museum. the better daisys show up at the Joplin,mo. gunshow . the dealer has been there about every show for the last 3 years and he always has 4 daisys with him. way overpriced but 1 is rough the other 3 are fair to good condition. he always has the same sales pitch about how rare and nice they are. im looking and thinking the faulke will be the better gun by a longshot. keep us posted on the faulke please bb

  • Reb Says:

    Just came over from Gunbroker to let anyone interested know that there is a JW 80 Mk II for sale. 4 G’s would definitely be over my head but I’ll bet someone has the cash to enjoy it!

  • Brandon C Says:

    Ive got and have had a daisy model 8 for about 20 years, it was my first rifle ever. It has never failed in any case aside from faulty ammunition. I dont know if its an abberation or what but its a little tackdriver and has been to hell and back. Fun fact, the rifle FLOATS. I think you should handle more than one example of firearm before casting judgment. Its no prize winner but its a nice and competent little rifle. I have put ATLEAST 8-9000 rounds through it, no joke. It has probably killed around 3-400 turtles as it has been used as a fishing/knockaround gun the majority of its lifetime. The rifling started to look awfully smooth so I had it relined last year, brought a lot of life back into this fine little peashooter. I do fear for it though, the spring for bolt is feeling very weak these days.

    They were assembled from primarily spare parts bought when stevens (if I recall correctly) went under.

  • Stephen Says:

    I have two Daisy Legacy 22′s. The first is the bolt action 10-shot with a polymer adjustable stock and a magazine that resembles Ruger’s just a little too much. The second is the 7-shot semi-auto with a wood stock and a magazine the resembles Remington’s a little too much. The bolt-action is a consistent shooter that I have sighted in to 50 yards, and does well out to 100 yards. It will shoot high velocity 22lr all day long without a problem. The semi-auto likes plated round nose high velocity better than lead round nose, and needs regular lubrication. If I don’t do both of those things it will have frequent misfeeds. But with the right ammo and good lubing, it’s a joy to shoot.

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