Common PCP leaks and some common fixes

by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier

I’m still in Ft. Smith, Arkansas, as I write this, so please excuse the brevity of the report. A while ago, I wrote down this idea as a possible report topic. Those who haven’t yet come over to PCPs often wonder how reliable they are, and those who already have the guns sometimes encounter things that are common problems but new to them. Let’s talk about that today.

WARNING: The procedures I am about to describe are for those who know what they are doing. In every case, there are proper safety steps to be taken so accidents don’t happen. I cannot possibly describe all of those steps, so the following procedures are presented only for your education — not to train you as an airgunsmith. Safety with pressurized air and airguns should always be the No. 1 concern.

I can’t fill this airgun!
Boy, have I ever heard this one! It can come to you in a variety of ways, such as, “This airgun is broken — how do I return it?” I used to get at least one of those calls every month while I was the technical director at AirForce Airguns. The first few times I heard it, I was worried; but I got so used to hearing it that I would start telling them the cure before the problem had been fully stated.

The guy would tell me that he couldn’t fill his old-style Condor tank. I asked him how he was trying to fill it — from a scuba tank or with a hand pump — and a lot of times that made the guy mad. He wanted to know why that mattered because he should be able to fill the gun from a scuba tank or from a hand pump. Right? When this call came in, I knew he was filling with a hand pump, and I also knew he was trying to fill an empty tank.

The answer to “can it be done” is both yes and no. Yes, you can fill this kind of tank from a hand pump if there’s already some air inside it, and no, you can’t fill the tank if you start with it empty. That would really anger some people until I explained that the air inlet valve on an old-style Condor tank is also the exhaust valve. It’s a door that swings both ways. If there’s no air inside the tank, the valve will not recognize the small puff of air from a hand pump and will escape, again.

The valve will not close because it also uses internal air pressure to help it close tight. If you fill the tank from a scuba tank, the incoming air is under so much pressure that it will fill the tank quickly, and the internal air pressure will help close the valve when the filling stops.

A hand pump cannot fill some pneumatic airguns (not just Condors) unless they already have some air pressure inside to hold the inlet valve closed. We would ship tanks out with what we called a maintenance air charge in them — just enough pressure to hold the valve shut. But if the guy received the gun and then proceeded to shoot all that air out, as some of them did, they then had a gun that could only be filled from a scuba tank. It’s not funny when it happens to you.

This phenomenon is not just confined to AirForce guns, either. Almost all of the powerful Korean airguns work in a similar way. But the Korean guns can accept a charge by simply cocking the bolt — sometimes. In that case, taking the pressure of the bolt off the valve allows it to close and seal completely.

The newer style of Condor (as well as all other AirForce sporting PCP rifles) has a Spin-Loc tank with a separate inlet valve and firing valve. I’m not certain, but I believe this has solved the problem I just discussed. If I had a tank and pump here with me, I would check it right now. I’ll look into it when I get home.

Now you know two things about PCP “leaks” that are both very common problems and often misunderstood. First, they aren’t really leaks. They’re part of the gun’s design. Second, some guns must first be cocked to be filled.

Before you go all — “They shouldn’t design them that way!” on me, remember, the SR-71 Blackbird reconnaissance plane leaks fuel until it flies fast enough to heat and expand the airplane’s skin. Only then do all the leaks stop. Sometimes, a product can have a quirk that isn’t a flaw — it’s just the way it works. The Sheridan Supergrade rifle is one that cannot be pumped up unless the bolt is cocked first.

Use a hammer!
I probably shouldn’t tell you guys this next one; because when some of you get a hammer in your hands, every problem looks like a nail. But in the world of pneumatics, there are times when a big rubber mallet is exactly the right tool to use. When is that time? When a pneumatic that has been performing well all along suddenly develops a fast leak. It’s probably due to a piece of dirt that’s gotten onto a soft seal and is allowing air to pass through. To get it off the seal, it sometimes works to tap the end of the valve with a soft hammer. It opens the valve, and the blast of air will probably blow the dirt past the seal.

When I built valves at AirForce, I tested each by pressurizing them in a fixture and tapping the valve stem with a rubber hammer. I had racks of 100 valves at a time, and I went through and did this to each one in turn. That process seated the valve and created a small ring of contact between the synthetic valve and its seat. Sometimes, the valve needed to be hit several times to seat it properly, but it always worked. And it also worked if a valve had a small piece of dirt anywhere in the seals.

When customers would call with a gun that leaked and I determined the leak was a fast one that had popped up all of a sudden, I told them to try this procedure before sending the tank back for repairs. It fixed probably over 75 percent of all such leaks.

But this isn’t magic. If your gun has been a slow leaker the whole time you’ve owned it, this isn’t going to change a thing. It’s just for those all-of-a-sudden leaks that crop up sometimes. It will work for all guns, but most of them don’t allow direct access to the valve head like the AirForce tanks do. For those, you can do the next best thing — dry-fire the gun several times. That usually fixes the problem unless you’re timid about it. I sometimes had to get a timid owner to dry-fire his gun by telling him to fill it full and then dry-fire it 20 times in rapid succession. All that was doing is getting him to dry-fire the gun repeatedly without pausing to see if it was fixed yet. When there’s a piece of grit on a seal, it takes a lot of air flowing past to dislodge it, and a couple tries are often not enough. Twenty shots is probably overkill in all situations, but it saved me time from having to explain in detail just what the guy was doing — as I have now done for you!

You now know a genuine airgunsmith procedure! It isn’t as fascinating as it sounded, is it?

Listen
Okay, let’s go back to 1960, when cars had points and copper spark plug wires with (sometimes) poor insulation. Mechanics had a genuine stethoscope in their toolboxes. Or if they were shade-tree mechanics, like me, they had a 4-foot length of small rubber hose. We would put one end of the tube to our ear (the ear that worked best) and move the other end around the engine compartment while the motor was idling. You could quickly zero in on an arcing sparkplug wire or an exhaust manifold leak. It also works for precharged airguns!

You don’t need a hose because the barrel is the pipe that transmits the sound. Cock the gun but don’t load it. The sound you’re listening for is an air leak at the exhaust valve. But here’s an important safety tip — never put your ear directly over the muzzle and never do this if the gun is loaded! Listen from the side of the muzzle; so if the gun were to fire, the air would blast past your ear instead of into it! You can use a piece of paper to direct the sound, if needed. That keeps you safe and still lets you hear the smallest sounds.

I’ve found a number of valve leaks this way. This is just a diagnostic tool — it doesn’t do anything to fix the valve.

If your ears aren’t that good, or if you just don’t want to do it this way, you can also put a few drops of soapy water down the muzzle of a cocked gun. Bubble-blowing solution that you can buy at a dollar store works perfectly for this! If any air is escaping the valve, there will be bubbles at the muzzle. I always had a small bottle of bubble-blowing solution next to me when I worked on guns at AirForce. Of course, you have to clean the barrel and wipe it with an oily patch after doing this.

These little procedures have proven very valuable over the course of time. If the situation is right, they’ll fix the problem more often than not. While they seem simple to the point of being somewhat ridiculous, they do work.

197 thoughts on “Common PCP leaks and some common fixes

  1. I’ve tried to keep my Hill pump fill probe o-rings lubed (silicone grease) but clean. Still, sometimes, after filling my pcp tank, when I open the Hill pump relief valve prior to disengaging the probe, the air rushes out for awhile until the tank fill valve decides to close. Most times there’s no delay and no air escapes. Pretty scary the first time it happened. Wish I had the know-how and proper tools to strip it down. Eventually it will be time for a trip to a gunsmith.


  2. Wow, these solutions are so simple yet to have the understanding of the peculiarities of an immense variety of airguns make them legitimate trade secrets… thanks B.B. for another article that makes me say “wow, I really just learned something useful.” Question- do any of the pcp guns take those standard paintball tanks you see in the stores or is the end different? Also if those tanks can be adapted if they are sized differently.


    • Ive also an off topic question for Fred DPRoNJ because you’d mentioned the NP, and Gunfun1, we were discussing it, do you guys (or anyone with the “bull shroud” NPs) know if ,because the shroud threads on and and off, can other attachments, e.i. muzzlebrakes, be screwed on? Can an adapter screw on to adjust the thread size to accept standard firearm accessories?



      • RDNA
        I just looked at the Benjamin NPS on that PA is selling and the description says it has a carbon-fiber stock. That’s kind of interesting because usually they use wood or a synthetic stock. Here is the link.

        http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Benjamin_NPS_Air_Rifle/2055

        And then you asked about how the shroud attaches its done different ways by Crosman/Benjamin. Some use setscrews, or they are pushed together and some are threaded. If you go to Crosmans home page down at the bottom right of the page it has a place that you click on for their manuals and part diagrams. I usually check that out if I’m changing a gun around. Alot of the Crosman/Benjamin parts will interchange between guns if you know what your looking for.

        And as far as the thing your talking about attaching. I don’t know if you can or can’t. But usually firearm manufacturers use a different pitch thread than what the airgun manufacturers use. They don’t want the airgun devices to be used on firearms is the way I understand it.

        Is that what you were asking?


        • Absolutely, thanks a bunch, the one I’ve ordered has the full shroud with hex key shaped muzzle opening so it must screw on. More so what Im asking is if the NP limited edition has any differences other then the stock? And what is the base gun, the NPS right? Thanks In gonna check out those links now.


          • RDNA
            There is so many different models that Crosman/Benjamin make with the nitro piston that I’m not sure what to call a base model. But I know if you check out the parts diagrams you will see how many examples of the break barrel guns they have. I think after you look you will know more about the gun your getting then you can let me know what you find out ok.



  3. Forgive me for getting off topic. Thank you Tom Gaylord, Edith and every helpful person posting here. I got outside and broke out my high powered firearms this last week and while my good buddy was working on getting on paper and working out cobwebs from months without squeezing a trigger, I’m shooting tighter than I ever have and doing it rather lacadascialy. My winter with an air rifle has been the best marksmanship practice I can remember. This blog was almost my sole source of airgun related questions and a major part of this success. I got a feeling the rest of my buddies I shoot with are going to start “playing with bb guns”. Thanks again, I can’t believe how helpful and informative you’ve been.


    • Ben,

      Thanks for that feedback! Of course we have noticed similar things over the years. There is a training benefit that does carry over.

      I guess the simple truth is this — trigger time is trigger time.

      B.B.


      • Yeah! And not just any trigger time – airguns are so sensitive to basics like follow through and wind doping, they really keep you honest!

        -Jan


    • Same here Ben. On ALL points mentioned. Except the firearms part. You are the proof of an important point. Pulling the trigger is pulling the trigger. You kept you trigger finger from getting fat and you are now enjoying the benefits of you time with your airgun. :)

      Awesome.



      • Chris and Jan are spot on with the trigger pull. The muscle memory I gained this winter is paying off with my rifle and pistols. Gunfun cheaper is almost an understatment, not pennies on the dollar, less than a penny on the dollar is what it’s costing me. The most interesting part of my winter indoor session for me is I made detailed notes and saved all my targets, I like browsing through that filing cabinet and being able to see progressive improvement.7


  4. I sure do hope I can fill my Talon SS. I am in the process of rebuilding the valve right now.

    With PCPs such as Air Force where you can remove the tank, you can check for slow leaks by submergence. I had a slow leak with my Edge. With this procedure you know exactly which seal is leaking. Oh by the way, it would probably be a good idea to dry it off thoroughly when you use this procedure.



    • I suspect that one of your tank seals can only seal against up to 1800 psi. It leaks above that.
      I have had leaky pump hose seals do about the same thing….pumps up fine to a point, but just won’t go any higher.

      twotalon



    • Winston,
      Is this a newly developed problem or is the gun new? Have you done any work to it?
      Pump the gun up to 3000 psi. Get or make some bubble solution, take the stock off, and use a dropper or dropper bottle to apply solution to the various seal points on the air tank. On your marauder, the easiest to test would be the tip of the fill nipple, the seam where the end cap (that holds the nipple) threads into the end of the air reservoir/tank, the weep hole on the underside of the gage, and the threads on both ends of the adapter that the gage threads into. In some cases, you can simply try tightening the gage and gage adapter threads. Use a wrench and no NOT torque the outside frame of the gage. Use the flat areas next to the threads. Don’t worry if the gage spins and is a little harder to read-thats a cosmetic convenience. It’s more important that the threads are tight and not leaking. If the gage weep hole is leaking, you’ll have to replace it as I did on one of mine. Be SURE to degas the reservoir first before you do any disassembly!

      There is a tiny oring between the gage adapter and the air reservoir tube, at the bottom of a threaded hole. If the leak is there, clean the oring and seating area carefully. It only takes a tiny speck of dirt or metal burr from adjacent threads to cause a leak. You can use automotive dielectric silicone grease to lube the oring or buy a specialty silicone grease. Another domestic source is the waterproof grease sold for faucets at Lowes. The procedure is the same for other oring seals: disassemble, clean, inspect, clean, lube, and reassemble.

      Good luck
      Mark


    • Winston
      I found on the Marauders with the type of leak you described usually is where the pressure gage screws into the adapter but it could also be at the air valve that transfers the air charge to the transfer port. I will explain the gage leak first.

      Empty the gun completely of air take the gage out of the adapter and remove the old sealer that is on the gage. Get some Teflon tape and wrap some on the gage threads. Wrap it around the threads about 4 times. Thread it back into the gage adapter and tighten it till its snug and give it about a 1/8Th turn more. Don’t over tighten it or you will end up with more problems.

      And if you have trouble getting the Marauder to fill back up from complete empty cock the gun and (DON’T) load a pellet and leave the bolt open. Try filling. If its still a problem sometimes you have to cock the bolt and try dry firing a couple times and that will knock the valve and re-seat it.

      And the other thing depending on how you have your striker stroke and spring pressure adjusted it could be resting the striker on the valve rod and not allowing the valve to seat closed at the higher fill pressure. And when it leaks down enough then the valve seats good. Kind of like if you screw the degassing tool in the back cap to let air out of the gun. What you can do is back the striker adjustment out about 2 turns. that way it won’t rest on that valve. That will bring your feet per seconds up a little also because the striker will have farther to travel so it will hit the valve a little harder. Hope that helps.


      • I should say this about the striker leak. It can happen at any fill pressure and usually is a continuous slow leak. And there is more chance of a leak at the lower fill pressure not (Higher fill pressure). The higher fill pressure will help the transfer port valve stay closed.


  5. B.B.

    I am going to ruin your day…

    I have 5 AF tanks…all were dead empty when I got them. I filled all 5 with a hand pump . I had the valves out of two of them .
    The only time I had any problem filling them other than the horrendous amount of pumping up from dead empty was ….
    Leaky pump check valve , leaky pump bleed valve , leaky hose fittings.
    When all of that stuff works, there is simply nowhere for the air to go except into the tank, and it can’t get out until you pop the bleed valve. The only other possibility is if the seal between the valve and tank is leaking.

    Now, if the valve is leaky, it will simply leak back down once you pop the bleed valve. You can pump it up, but it won’t stay pumped up.

    twotalon


  6. BB,
    Is there a situation when a leak can be so slow as not being able to be detected by soapy water? My Discovery has been examined several times, I tried a lot of the tips you mentioned, but it still leaks down from 2000psi to 700~800psi (it usually takes about a week to do so).
    I confess I gave up… can’t find the cure for myself so I think I need to find a airgunsmith in my country who is able to fix it… not so easy when you live South of the Equator.


    • Fred,

      Yes, there are some very slow leaks. Next time you fill your tanks put two drops of silicone chamber oil on the tip o0f the top hat, so it gets blown into the tank with the fill. That might fix the leaks.

      B.B.


    • Fred,

      One possibility would be to attach a balloon to the muzzle and a second one over the fill plug area, if there is room and you can get the balloons to seal. Make sure the bolt is closed. Those will let you check the exhaust valve and the fill port check valve and fitting. If neither one fills up it could be the pressure gauge.

      Paul in Liberty County


  7. Morning all.My two cents worth, When we had small and ‘very’ slow leaks in our propane torches or lines or tanks we used Dawn dish washing liquid mixed with very warm water applyed with a tiny paint brush to find those small leaks. My Mrod had a very very slow leak at the fill nipple and I found it and replaced it that way.Then a year later it developed a leak losing about 100 psi. per day.I could find no leaks anywhere? So that told me it was out of my hands and sent it to P.air for seal replacement.Hats off to the gentlemen that fixed it because I got it back in just a few weeks because I ask him ‘nicely’ that I really would love to get it back before early June squirrel season opens and if he couldn’t, hey I understand because he is probably one man doing all the repairs. And so I got It back just on time for the two week hunt! Yep I’ll pull there repair department string any day.Seals had to be replaced good as new again.Squirrels fear me again!


  8. Ah. the ole’ stethoscope& spray bottle these tools are priceless when it comes to diagnosing problems in areas of limited accessibility.!
    I hereby promise not to put my ear out!


  9. Something weird happened to me the other day. After replacing the pump cup on my “new” Benji 3120 I started pumping.the gun would only take one pump(apparently the intake valve is bleeding air back into the pump tube.The exhaust valve is also leaking air into the barrel, So I know I need to get in there but, in one series of pumps, as I was going down, all of a sudden the intake valve let go of the air I had pumped in. I was suddenly holding close to 100 pounds of pressure with my left hand! Sure am glad I had a good hold on it because,had it slipped it would have bent or broken something and had anyone been standing in the right place it would’ve been lights out.
    Ever heard of anything like this?


    • Hey!I got a few shots off with the 3120 tonight!Kept soaking it with Mac’s secret sauce & tried pumping with the gun oriented so gravity made the oil work for me. The adjustment locknut came loose so everything waits for daylight tomorrow so I can pull the front apart one more timeto lube readjust & tighten. I guess I’ll see how long I get to keep the $30 I have saved for the kit. Yeehaw!



    • Jeff,
      I had a few PCP and I wish i have other types of airgun instead. why? Because every 5 or 6 years regardless now little I shoot the gun, I would get a leak. I have to figure out where the leak is and fix it. The one with a regulator requires even more maintenance when that regulator goes bad. As for the refill air tank, I need to get it inspect it once a year, and every 5 years I need to get it hydro tested which is $30. I also have to drive a long way to have my tank refill. I prefer a single pneumatic airgun instead, simple, reliable, easy to shoot, and very little maintenance.



  10. Next time, please display a pyramydair article in smaller prints, because I can still read this one, and I think is 7 or 8 points in size.


    • Joe,

      The size of the print may look small on your screen, but it’s not. It’s 12 pt type. I know that because I just checked it in the blog editor. If you need to enlarge the print, feel free to do so with your browser facility. I know how to do it on a Mac (press the command key and the + key repeatedly to make it as big as you like), and it works the same way across all browsers. Undoubtedly, Windows computers will have a different way of doing that.

      The resolution of YOUR monitor determines how big or small things look on your screen. When I go to a lower resolution on my computer, the print is larger on my desktop icons, Microsoft Word, websites, etc. By using a very high resolution, the print looks much smaller. Seems odd, but I’ve experimented with different resolutions and found this to be true.

      Edith


    • Joe,

      You should be able to enlarge the print on your computer screen to suit yourself. I always have to do0 that for all of my blogs, because I can no longer see them at the original screen size.

      B.B.


      • Thanks for the advise. I have other webpages on Google chrome, and those prints are large, but not so for your PA article. I guess I have to play around with Google chrome.


        • Joe, real easy on Google Chrome – hold the control key (CTRL) and hit your plus (+) key as many times as needed to enlarge the web page. To make it smaller, use the minus (-) key while holding down the control key. IE works same way as does Mozilla Firefox. Like BB, I do this all the time with all web pages. Darn things seem to be getting smaller every week! Can’t understand it. Must be the same phenomenon that keeps on making my pants shrink around the waist.

          Fred DPRoNJ


  11. B.B.,

    I was wondering would recommend the Hill pump? I have an air venturi pump and was wondering if it would be an up grade to buy the hill pump. I would love to have a high pressure tank, but really isn’t feasible.

    Look forward you seeing you and the gang on the American Airgunner show. Hope you enjoyed it.

    Thanks,

    Chris.


    • Chris,

      I do recommend the Hill pump! Of the three hand pumps I own, it is the only one that’s still working. Of course I watch it like a hawk and don’t allow people to get dirt on the shaft or wipe off the dark grease, just because it looks dirty.

      As for seeing us on American Airgunner, I’ll give you a brief look on Monday’s blog.

      B.B,.


  12. I don’t yet own a PCP, so these problems were all news to me.

    For you folks who are lucky enough to have one, how many of you have encountered these problems?

    What’s the fail rate (leaks per year, if you will)?

    Can you usually fix them yourselves?

    Do you have problems finding a gunsmith who knows how to fix a PCP? I would have thought repair work required specialized training beyond what a normal gunsmith might have, but I don’t know.

    Thanks. Any comments/answers welcome.

    By the way, I’ve seen umpteen different documentaries about the Blackbird and I think this is the first time I’ve heard about their fuel leak problem. Learn something every day and on this blog you learn the unexpected.


    • Once airborne, The SR71 almost always requires immediate refueling. While sitting on the tarmac @ 80 degrees,all the connections/joints are about as cool as they will ever be, once at speed, the friction of bypassing air will send the outside temp to over 800f, the gaps that are leaking on the tarmac, are to accommodate expansion of the parts, especially exterior components. Once at speed, all is hunky dory!
      While in school, we were taught that this aircraft had a top speed of mach3, however when we plugged the numbers in and did the math it was more like mach7
      This is my 2nd favorite aircraft, right behind the A10, one look at it will tell you why!


      • Off-topic: Interesting… you have one of the fastest and one of the slowest as your preferred aircraft… I heard once from an American pilot that the A-10 was the only combat aircraft in the world that could have a collision with a bird coming from behind. I noticed that USAF is proposing to withdraw the old Warthog from service. I guess more than a few soldiers on the ground will think this was a bad decision. All hopes go for the F-35 now!


        • They also decommissioned the B-1b, right after training me and 100s of other students.I guess they’ll be saving it for a rainy day also.



        • The Harrier was responsible for most of what we’ve learned about thrust vectoring,to the point of vertical takeoff! another favorite, along with the f-15 Iron Eagle, for it’s ability to maintain acceleration in a full vertical climb!


      • The true top speed of the SR-71 has, to my knowledge, never been released to the public.

        More trivia, besides the fact that it leaks so bad it needs to be refueled once it gets into the air.

        The fuel lines actually wrap around the engine and other parts to act as COOLANT. The fuel absorbs the heat before getting injected into the engine.

        It has an automated rudder system should one of the engines flame out. Pilots encountering a flame-out often reported that the working engine is the one that flamed-out because the rudder correction countering the lost thrust was that strong.


        • Wow! Yes it’s top speed is classified, the official number is mach 3, we were inquisitive and had the numbers to plug in,That’s where the mach 7 came from.



        • More interesting SR-71 facts:

          The original designation was RS-71.

          Only 32 produced, a dozen of which crashed.

          The blackbird was originally not to be black. It was going to the titanium color of its skin. The decision was made to paint the aircraft because the paint used dissipated heat better than the untreated titanium.

          Speaking of titanium, it was difficult for Lockheed to get their hands on enough titanium to build them. The CIA had to set up dummy corporations so that titanium could be purchased from the USSR. So we bought titanium from Russia so that we could build planes to spy on them with.

          Most of the titanium supplied for manufacture was rejected due to alloy specifications being wrong and from contamination during the alloying process.

          Much of the skin of the aircraft is corrugated to improve strength and control expansion and contraction from heat.

          The engines are most efficient above mach 3.

          The cones in front of the engines move backward as the plane accelerates past mach 1. This controls the shockwave of air on the surface of the wing, and keeps the speed of the air entering the engine subsonic.

          Can fly at sustained altitude of 85,000 feet.

          Visibility from the cockpit when landing was abysmal. Only the relatively tiny triangular windows offer any visual cues. The pilot must lean forward and backward to get as much visual feedback as possible, which can be dangerous, considering the next fact.

          During flight, the temperature of the inside surface of the cockpit windows is above 200 F. Upon landing, the titanium skin temperature is in excess of 500 F.

          Set a record flying from London to Los Angeles in 3 hours, 48 minutes. In local time, it landed before it took off.

          Designer: Kelly Johnson

          Codename during development: oxcart.


      • To the Ground-Pounder, the SR-71 is a beauty the way Jessica Rabbit is a beauty…unobtainable and in the abstract…but beautiful nonetheless.
        Back in the day (choose your personal reference to whatever that day may be) we occasional RTO (Radio Telephone Operators) types were always taught that hands-down, easily the most powerful non-nuclear weapon in the inventory, no argument from the recipient, was a Spec/4 with a radio and a map. In those days, it was actually possible, really, to find a lowly E-4 in command of the USS Enterprise. Really.
        That said, back in the day, the hardware may have been different, but the ability of the lowly to address a fast-mover and say, “Put it…right…there…has a major attraction to the lowly. The A-10 drivers, and the A-10s themselves are always best described as, “pretty is as pretty does.”



          • Wow! I’ll bet you’re really glad the A-10 was ours! A hearty Thank You to you, David & all other fellow veterans who protected this country until I was old enough to participate!


          • I used to live in Myrtle Beach back when most of our warthogs flew out of there. Quite a sight to see essentially a tank with wings flying only 2000 feet above your head. Get a few hundred of those over in Ukraine and THAT might strengthen our diplomatic posture with Poo-tin.

            And PLEASE, no political stuff about American leaders politicians, PLEASE. I pick on Poo-tin because every single one of us views him as an enemy– no controversy.

            Michael


            • My sister used to live right at the end of the runway for Dyess, in Abilene Tx. you could watch the roofing shingles start clapping then the occasional tab would finally give in and also take flight. Th A-10 had a lot to do with the low altitude maneuverability of the B1. You don’t hear ‘em until you see them, by then it’s way too late!


              • Reb
                The A10 are fabulous machines. I have heard them called the fighting gliders. Back in the early 80′s the machine shop that I worked at made 3 different types of the 25 mm rounds. Also other rounds; 20mm, 430 grenades, and also 3 different types of the 30mm rounds. Well and other military stuff.

                And back to the A10. It always fascinated me how that plane fly’s. And the simplicity of design and that the flying surfaces are still controlled by cables.

                And you talk about surprise attack. I always try to keep an eye on the lead jet at the air shows. I love how the 4 or 5 jets do a slow fly by in front of the crowed and the lead plane does the that wonderful high speed from behind sneak up on you pass. By time the plane is getting out of sight then you hear the thunder. Great stuff.


    • Hi Rob,
      Both of my marauders had leaks. I made the mistake of not getting the 10 for $10 test from Pyramyd. For the first one, I could pump it up, but it would lose several hundred psi overnight. Now this level of leak may or may not have been detected by the technician during the test. Yes you can fix some or all of these leaks yourself depending on your knowledge and mechanical abilities. I took the stock off and started listening carefully, pressing my ear closely to all the areas along the air tank. I could hear a faint leak from the gage. I made a bubble solution from about 1 part dishwashing liquid to 3 parts water. The leak turned out to be coming from a tiny weep hole on the rear flange of the gage. Pyramyd sent me a new gage.

      My 2nd marauder wouldn’t hold air at all. As soon as I started pumping it up, air would leak out of the muzzle. No amount of pumping and dry firing fixed it. I knew it was the firing valve and that I did not have the knowledge to disassemble it. It was a new gun so I sent it back for replacement.

      Lesson: get the 10 for $10 test.

      Once fixed, the guns have been trouble free. It’s not too hard thought to disassemble a gun and lube or replace a seal, once you learn how. There is a certain mental threshold you cross when you become comfortable with fixing things yourself. It usually just a matter of having the right tools, materials, and knowledge.


      • Wow, I would have been so disappointed. I imagine I’d have been one of those irate callers that BB mentions. Glad you could repair them and PA took care of things. I’ve disassembled a couplr of my pellet guns, but I’m no natural mechanic. I wish PA would add maintenance videos to their site. I’ve found some very helpful youtube videos but because they’re not professionally filmed/edited, it’s often difficult to see exactly what they are doing.


        • I love on YouTube choosing a “how to disassemble” and its a 12 year old taking the stock off and pouring lube through the slot. Those ones are real helpful…. :p



            • I saw one kid demonstrate the loudness of a brand new 200+$ breakbarrel by dry firing it several times! I cringed. Kids unsupervised in these videos with high powered airguns make me cringe even worse. You guys ever saw the video with the little Spanish girl loads a full size 1911 .45, swings it around a couple times and points it luckily at the floor and BOOOM!!!! Drops a code brown in her pants. Could’ve killed herself. How she got a hold of it and the rounds is stupidest part she shouldve never had the opportunity.


    • I have 6 pcp’s most of which are at least one year old and I have not had a leak problem with any of them (at least not yet). I had to replace the fill “nipple” on my A.A. S500 once because one arm of the “T” bar broke off. (Unless you’ve seen the fill device on an Air Arms gun you won’t know what I’m talking about and it’s hard to describe). Anyway, I had to replace it and when I tried to fill the rifle it would not hold air. In this case all I had to do was cock the gun first and then it held the air. Easy fix.

      Obviously I have found pcp’s to be virtually maintenance free. I simply use pellgun oil on the visible seals from time to time and all of them shoot great. Accuracy is tremendous. If any of them ever do need serious maintenance or fixing I will send them to P.A. If you get the chance please treat yourself to a pcp.

      By the way, there is no way I can fill a 3,000 psi gun with a pump. I weigh 165 lbs. and that is simply too light. I’m also 61 yrs. old and don’t have the musculature I use to.

      G & G


      • G & G,
        I had a few PCP and I wish i have single stroke pneumatic (SSP) airguns instead. why? Because with my PCP, every 5 or 6 years regardless now little I shoot the gun, I would get a leak. I have to figure out where the leak is and fix it. The one with a regulator requires even more maintenance when that regulator goes bad. As for the refill air tank, I need to get it inspect it once a year, and every 5 years I need to get it hydro tested which is $30. Although my SSP arigun is only around 6 ft-Lb, i can knock down FT targets at 25 yards, and that is OK with me because my backyard is only 30 yards at the deepest.



  13. I had a custom Disco I had gutted and reworked to be a totally hard hitting beast. One thing I did was replace the Crosman air valve with a Boss high flow air valve. I mention this because the Crosman valve has 2 O-ring seals on it to seal the gun. The Boss valve has one. I noticed that the Boss valve would leak around the o-ring seal under pressure. To solve this i made sure to cover that O-ring with Hoppes gun oil to swell it after I installed it. Believe it or not this actually worked quite well. After that every couple of fills I’d put a few drops of pellgun oil in the fill connector before I hook it to my air tank. Seemed to do the job. The person I sold it to was happy with it but grumbled about the trigger. So I put in a sweet brass trigger tith a 1/4 inch travel on it. No problems since.



      • You might be able to if the air gauge is marked in psi instead of just red, yellow and green bars. Makes it rather hard to do then. But I wasn’t losing air when I fired this disco. I was losing air around the O-ring seal designed to hold the air in the air tube. If I took it someplace quiet and put the gun to my ear around where the air valve was I could hear it hissing out and venting back by the hammer and around the trigger seer. So the gauge was just telling me that I was losing air. It was not telling me how much I was losing. But some hoppes gun oil swelled that O-ring enough so the air venting stopped. I imagine if I took the gun apart the O-ring would be in sorry shape. But if there is no problem with it now, no point in fixing it.



  14. B.B.,

    That information about the old-style Condor tanks really has me scratching my head in, frankly, disbelief.

    Were the tanks shipped new with the guns have a partial fill, or were they completely empty when the purchaser opened the box? If they were completely empty, how was the customer supposed to fill the tank with the AirForce hand pump bundled with his purchase?

    Or, did potential customers receive an alert prior to their purchase that they were buying a gun that required also owning a SCUBA (preferably a 4500 psi SCBA) tank?

    The one remaining non-spin-loc Condor Pyramyd Air has for sale mentions, in a red font, that different brands of hand pumps will require different types of fill adapters. Does this address/correct the potential issue of an empty tank, a hand pump, no scuba tank, and a frustrated new customer?

    Michael


    • I’d try the local Fire Station for an initial fill. They would probably be more than happy to accommodate you, especially if you brought breakfast!


      • Reb,

        I have a couple Marauders, but I do not own a Condor. My point was that it would have been reasonable to purchase the rifle and pump with the assumption that the latter would fill the former, even if it had no HPA in its tank at all.

        About a year ago I asked an old high school classmate of mine, for many years now a local fire chief, about local departments’ attitudes towards HPA refills from their compressors for airgunners. He said the trend is to politely decline, donuts or not, because the wear and tear on the equipment adds up. He then rattled off all of the immediately surrounding departments and assured me that each had a “No, sorry” policy.

        So, for $1600-$1700 one can purchase a Shoebox, shop compressor, and small 4500 psi tank.

        Kinda makes the old standby Benjamin 392 that Pyramyd Air sells for $169.99 with free shipping look tempting, doesn’t it?

        Michael


    • Michael,

      I handled it mostly on the phone, custyomer by customer. This was in the 2003-2005 timeframe, and practically nobody was trying to fill AirForce tanks with a hand pump back then. In fact one of the big reasons Ton Jones asked for the TalonP tank for the Escape rifle is because the larger tanks are too difficult to fill from a hand pump.

      I am saying this was a non-issue because it almost never happened. But when it did, I would walk the customer through the steps to fill the tanks, including filling a couple with a maintenance change and returning them.

      B.B.


      • B.B.,

        Fair enough. I guess the more I think about it, however, the more I think that was one case when those few customers were legitimately bewildered and a rare case when AirForce failed to anticipate what could happen. Obviously, they have been quick to learn and adapt, what with Spin-loc, larger shrouds, better safeties, etc.

        Michael


    • The older style tanks had to have a fill-adapter screwed over the top-hat. AirForce’s fill-adapter did not use the same Foster fitting used by many PCP makers.

      When I bought my Marauder (after the Condor) I had to obtain a double-ended pipe nipple, a Condor-type male coupling, and a Foster-type female coupling. To fill my Maruader and Silhouette I now have the AirForce pump with their female coupling clamped to the Condor-type male, which is mounted to the pipe nipple, and the opposite end of that has the Foster female to couple to the Crosman products.

      If I ever buy another pump, it will likely have Foster fittings, and I’ll have to see if I can find AirForce compatible female…


  15. B.B.,

    My comment above about how the Benjamin 392 is still a perfectly serviceable and affordable pneumatic option got me wondering. Do you happen to know about how much pressure one of those has at eight pumps?

    Just curious,

    Michael


    • Michael,

      Here is what I know. In W.H.B. Smith’s book, he mentioned frazing a gauge on a Sheridan Blue Streak and that it got up to 1,200 psi when pumped all the way up. And Dennis Quackenbiush put a gauge on one and got it up to 1,800 psi, I think. Not real sure about that one.

      B.B.


  16. Good question!
    B.B.., I don’t know the answer to this but, if I had to guess, I’d say 1600-2000psi.
    Does anyone have a number?


  17. BB,
    Question off topic. Was just looking at airguns, and wow–they are pricey. Just curious what your take on that was. Does it cost more to make an airgun than I imagine? Do they price them high because the demand is strong but only from a few people…so they can? Is there not much competition or a gentlemen’s agreement to keep the price levels? Any ideas? It just seems steep to pay $600 for something I would have thought could have been made for less than a hundred dollars–especially if the parts or construction is outsourced overseas.

    Thanks.


    • rob,

      Yes, good airguns do cost some money — the same as anything else that’s good. But there are bargains to be had, if you know where to look.

      Beyond that, I really can’t comment, because I don’t know what sort of shooting you do, what you like or what standards you hope to achieve.

      But I can comment on your final remark. A Lothar Walther barrel costs between $90 and $200, depending on how many you buy. Anything you do buy to put into a gun has to be multiplied 3-4 times to make a profit. So a $90 barrel increases the price of the airgun it’s on by $270-$360. And that’s just the barrel.

      So a $600 gun has to cost no more than $125 to build if you want to make a decent profit.

      Now there are ways to shave the costs. L:et’s say you decided to build airguns and you won’t advertise. Not in print, not on television, not even on the internet. That’s a huge savings! You could perhaps get the multiplier down to just 2 times by shaving the advertising costs.

      And what would you name your company? Perhaps Sharp? Or Titan? Wait a minute — don’t use those names. They are the names of companies that no longer exist. They didn’t advertise, and they didn’t make it.

      This is the part of business that most people don’t understand. If you buy something at Wally World for $40, the manufacturer had to make it for $10 or less, just to stay in business.

      B.B.


      • B.B.,

        Sharp? Titan?

        On the first day of marketing class my professor said, “Build a better mouse trap and . . .,” and we answered in unison, “The world will beat a path to your door.” He smiled and said, “No. Whenever anyone needs a mousetrap, they buy the same old hard-to-set piece of junk that has been available for probably a hundred years. Since that was patented there have no doubt been DOZENS of better mouse traps, but the makers of every single one of them went out of business because if you build a better mouse trap, the world won’t care — unless you market it well, and apparently none of them did.”

        Another lesson that semester was what he called the times two times two rule. If it costs (COSTS) you one dollar to make it and deliver it, you must charge two dollars for it wholesale. Then, the retailer must be able to sell it for four dollars and convince the buyer that it is a good price because the MSRP is five dollars. Follow these practices, and you might make it in business — MIGHT. Cut your margins below that, and as they say in New Jersey, Fuhgettahboutit.

        Michael


        • Michael,

          You had a great class! That professor knew what he was talking about and probably worked in industry at one time. The multipliers are there because of the layer5s of hands that touch the product between the manufacturer and customer.

          And, when mass-marketers like the box stores remove the layers, they add their own unique costs by having killer return programs. Remington was forced to accept so many returns ($10 Million one time) that it almost drove them out of business. And Wal-Mart requires companies that supply them with a certain level of SKUs to have an office within a certain distance (it used to be 5 miles) of the Wal-Mart home office in Arkansas.

          B.B.


          • B.B.,

            He was a great teacher, and yep, he had prior experience in the marketing end of manufacturing. He was the marketing manager for a small cardboard box manufacturer. He had many relevant stories about his time doing that. He said more than once that everyone, even janitors, was encouraged by small bonuses if they could discover a way to increase margin by lowering costs. Any silly systematic waste that they noticed and brought to the attention of the president (whose office was right there — SMALL manufacturer) would get looked into, and if it would probably save the company even just $300 (this also was the ’70s), and the employee would get a one-time bonus of, say $50.

            And Wal-Mart has really changed the game, some ways good (low prices), others bad (the death of the small, family owned retailer). When I was a kid every town of any size had at least one small toy store, at least one small sporting goods store, and at least one small hardware store, all downtown and all family owned. Now Wal-Mart is the toy store, Dick’s and Sports Authority are the sporting goods store, and Lowes and Home Depot are the hardware store. Mom and Pop? They work at these stores as employees now.

            Michael


    • There are exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking, if you take three break barrel spring piston air rifles of the same caliber and power level, one costing $150, one costing $300 and one costing $600 and lay them on a table side by side, you should be able to tell the difference. When you shoot them, all doubt will be removed.


    • rob, my friends over the years have all been surprised at the price of a quality air gun. They perceive air guns as being less powerful that a firearm, so they must be less expensive. Sometimes they compare them to replicas, or even toys. Then I explain that the precision work needed to produce consistent accuracy is no less for an air gun than a “real gun”. Then you add the additional expense of the extra parts, many of them moving, needed for the propulsion system whether that is a spring piston, or a contained air supply. After those considerations, we are lucky to have the prices we do.


  18. Thanks BB. I had no idea a good barrel cost the manufacturer that much-orthat their costs had to be multiplied 3 or 4 times for them to make a decent profit. Yo ur answer makes sense to me.

    Are there other barrels to look for besides the lothar walther? Something good, but not so expensive? I don’t hear about other barrels by name as a selling point, but maybe I should look for them.

    Thanks.
    Rob


    • Rob,

      This is where the real bargains come i9n. Crosman can rifle a barrel in-house that is often just as good as a Lothar Walther barrel, or nearly so. This coming week you will see how accurate our $100 PCP rifle is, and it is a gun that Crosman makes and sells for under $60.

      The Benjamin Discovery is another of those good bargains. And the Hatsan PCPs are, as well.

      B.B.



        • I pulled my Rem Airmaster down& blued the shroud to match the pump tube. over 4 hrs to strip the nickel plating but soo worth it! Don’t make it shoot any faster but ahh!.. I’l keep pumping this one for every shot


  19. If they’re making $450 or even 200 profit I’ll stick to the 200 dollar guns, brand reputation to cost ratio has always chapped my toes, they might build a better gun, surely they do, and they might not sell as many, but they’d make make more money by selling more guns at a more reasonable price. The crosman I have coming cost 180, it cost less to build than a 600 dollar gun, but does the selling price of each reflect the build cost proportionally? Probably the profit is greater on the cheaper gun, that’s the funny part. A 200$ gun probably cost 50$ to make.


  20. B.B.,
    as for putting a few drops of soapy water down the muzzle of a cocked PCP gun, is this safe to do for guns with a sound modulator shrouded barrel?


  21. @BB:
    Cool. Some of the info you provided also applies to real hunting AirGuns (Multi Stroke Pneumatics). So this is yet another of your articles that I have bookmarked.


  22. It doesn’t exactly “cost” only $100 to make that airgun. You have invested over a million dollars (or a lot more) in CNC machining centers, injection molding equipment, finishing equipment, real estate, building costs, building maintenance, office staff, packaging equipment centers, insurance, skilled employees, health care, electricity, computers, telephones, advertising… And don’t forget about raw materials, heat treating, plating, tooling, shipping, workholding fixtures… There is a huge amount of dollars behind every one of these guns, expensive or otherwise, that has to be recouped. So when you hear “profit”, that’s not exactly true. Nobody takes $200 home from a $400 or even a $700 gun sale.


  23. BB,a few years ago there was to be a butterfly hand pump to hit the market and I’ve been waiting? I believe you said a year or so ago that Benjamin was not pleased with quality of materials they were offered by manufacturer’s.And seems they had changed the name from Butterfly to something else? Anyway,I’m still waiting and getting older could use something like that! I built what I call a pump reducer and its portable but takes up about six feet of room and I don’t have the extra space in my cabin for it just outside on the porch and that means humidly will attack my pump.I believe it takes something like almost 200 pounds of thrust on that last two inches or so with the hand pump.And I have no problem cause its about the leg bend on that last thrust,but I have reduced the overall thrust down to around 40 pounds if I remember correctly.Anyway I can pump it with one hand! It’s screen door tech. at its best made from 6×6,2x2s pulley wheel,hinge and a few more simple things ways about 20 pounds.I had fun building it and it have used it for three years now but i can leave my pump out on the porch.Sorry I’m rambling again I know my forces on the hand pump are not exactly accurate so fell free to correct me.


    • Steve,

      That was the Benjamin butterfly pump. Still no new developments. I have heard of one other person who’s made an accessory to ease the effort of pumping…it was a foot-powered accessory and could be used while seated. He said he pumped in 5-minute intervals while watching TV.

      Edith


    • Steve,

      Crosman has looked at the product several factories can produce for them and they aren’t satisfied yet.

      You pump reducer sounds like a neat idea. Want to write a guest blog about it?

      B.B.


      • BB,I’ll do better then that.Last year I made a video with my pump reducer with a small profit in mind just for the plans.So I’m not really interested in making a buck from my fellow air gunners if they just want to view this video for fun and maybe some could understand what I’ve built and try it for them self if they have any woodworking talent.I believe I could explain better with video then a blog and if any questions I will be glad to responed. Just one problem,you need to tell me how to post it or E-mail address? The wife said she would send it next week from work because we are on Dial up here. Its a simple idea and works like a charm for me.Probably cost around $25.00 bucks to build from your local hardware store supplies. And today I have decided to go head and order a hill pump because I read they have a life time warranty.My Benjamin is locking up now pushing me back up! Ain’t that the way it goes! I gotta new Airforce barrel coming in and now the pump is going out! If I didn’t love this airgun sport so much I’d go back to my 17 hmr.But I’m hooked,a junkie ya might say! somebody help me!



    • Reb,

      The leg powered HPA pump was designed and prototyped by the Professor on Gilligan’s Island. A skinny kid fueled by banana cream pies could produce enough energy to fill a tank to 4600 psi and at the same time also produce nine volts DC for the powering of a transistor radio!

      Michael


  24. B.B. and Derrick,

    Derrick’s observations about start-up costs, along with the business precept of “economy of scale” got me thinking that perhaps PCP fill salvation might come from the Shoebox, a small manufacturer with high production costs, partnered with, ugh, Crosman, and have the Shoebox made at the same quality but for significantly lower cost. If a Shoebox 8 plus a decent, oil-less shop compressor for the first stage could be bundled and sold by Pyramydair for $999.95, that would offer around $400 in savings for the consumer, and the lowered production costs plus increased sales would make Mr. Shoebox, Crosman, and P.A. happy, and the tendinitis I have in my elbows would be able to go away.

    Regarding the “Godot Pump,” as Crosman has allegedly renamed it, I teach at a college with a tool & die / machining, and CNC program, and I intend to see just how much it would cost me to have a Hill pump “butterflied” for my personal use and as a student’s class project. At the same time I will look into having a Benjy 392 “pump-assistified” through the same means.

    Michael



      • Reb,

        The Shoebox must be used with a shop compressor to provide the first stage. This adds an extra $250 or more to the cost of using a Shoebox. The Shoebox is hand assembled by a very small manufacturer.

        A large manufacturer that were to pay a licensing fee to Shoebox could cut material costs (bulk ordering), labor costs (assembly line production) and distribution costs (selling through a large retailer: Pyramyd Air). The large retailer could make the savings even slightly sweeter by bundling Shoeboxes with appropriate (oil-free and enough output) shop compressors. That means the end price to the consumer, adding the free shipping, could be perhaps one third. A patent-holder licensed, Crosman made Shoebox plus a suitable shop compressor could probably be sold through Pyramyd Air for $999.95 with free shipping, and there would be enough margin for everyone.

        Michael



        • They still sell a base model in 3000 or 4500psi that is called the ShoeBox MAX. Its around 650 dollars and belt driven like the Freedom 8. The MAX doesn’t have the extra bells and whistles like the Freedom 8 but it still performs good. I know. I have the base model now for almost 3 years and they are great pumps for the price.

          I still got my Benjamin hand pump from when the Discovery’s came out and a Hill pump that’s probably 3 or so years old. You know for just in case back up purposes. All I can say is oil them lightly with silicone grease and keep the incoming air dry and keep the dirt away. They will last if you take care of them.


    • You have a manufacturing facility AND free labor?! What are you waiting for? Start up airgun company, and when they graduate you can hire them to keep working for you and they’ve already been trained! Lol, school might frown a little though huh?


      • Well, the Shoebox and the butterfly pump (hereafter called the “Godot Pump” by yours truly) and the pump assisted Benjy are all presumably patent-protected designs. One can’t just start making and selling them. That’s not what I was saying.

        The Godot Pump and pump-assisted Benjy are not and will not be on the market. But I want one of each! My school does not have facilities nor inclination to become a manufacturer, especially for an illegal endeavor.

        But a one-off, hand assembled Godot Pump and a one-off, hand modified, pump-assisted Benjy that are for one person’s personal use and which will never, ever be sold or duplicated would probably not violate any patent laws.

        Michael



      • Does Mac1 offer a pump-assist mod? I’ve never heard that.

        Mac1 offers a series of “Steroid” modifications that result in a Benjamin or Sheridan with a sweet trigger, greatly beefed up internals, and a much more efficient valve. Each individual pump stroke takes the same effort as with a stock gun but compresses perhaps an extra ten percent (a guess) of air into the gun. So at 8 strokes a MAc1 rifle shoots significantly harder than a stock one at 8 strokes.

        Also, the Mac1 Steroided gun can be safely pumped up to 14 times and exhaust all of the air with one shot, getting it up in the realm of 35-40 foot-pounds in .22.

        But as far as I know, a Steroided multipump still is as difficult to pump as a stock gun. The shooter simply gets more foot-pounds out of the same effort and can even take the gun farther in number of pumps than what a stock gun can handle.

        Or am I wrong?

        Michael



          • B.B.,

            Thanks for the correction. As a plinkerer and paper-puncher, pumping effort is important to me but foot-pounds is much less so, hence my getting that wrong. Well, at least that is the excuse I’m going with!

            As for ingenius pump-assist inventions, there is one small manufacturer of excellent steel spinner type targets who has two prototypes (but no production plans that I know of) of a device that uses a hand pump attached to a pivot base and an electric motor that pumps it.

            THAT would probably be easier to make than a one-time knock-off Godot Pump.

            Michael


        • My understanding is that 30 fpe is the number Tim was reaching for when pump cup failure ended the pursuit for more power. I’ve seen pics & video of the pump assist model, I don’t think I’d want one. They make the Benji look heavy , bulky and noisy.


  25. Now, for something completely different…
    To Edith,
    Just now finished ordering a supply of the Crosman .177 Light Hoo-Ha pellets in the cardboard box universally used by BB in the tests of the this/that air-blooey (or “Ga-doink”) world of air-gunism.
    As a suggestion, I might recommend a reprint/redo of your observations on the different/same dies used in the manufacture of the Crosman Premiers. It was quite succinct and useful to everyone wondering about the pricing/quantity ratio of these pellets.
    Your observations are well worth repeating on a regular basis.


    • B.B., you said they were doing away with the cardboard box premiers? I see them on crosmans site still too…. maybe the complaints were heard?



        • I’ve never gotten the cardboard box, but I’ve heard they’re better, and hearing they were gonna be gone immediately has me wanting some so you may have hit the nail on the head! Are they much better? The premiers already are a staple pellet, get any better then they must be guaranteed to stack.


          • Wrong guy . Too expensive an gotta wait for delivery.However, I do have a parts order coming up that needs to be rounded off;)!


            • I’ve checked all but one possibility so far for local suppliers, believe it or not I’d be better off with any other caliber than.22.Ican get round balls for anything above .30cal, even found .25 Benji’s.CPHP @Walmart & Daisy pointed-that’s It aarg!


          • RDNA
            I use the .22 cal 14.3 grn. Premiers in the box along with the .177 cal. 10.5 grn. Premiers. Good pellets is all I can say.

            And I did talk to them when we talked about them not doing the box pellets anymore. I was told that the .22 cal. 14.3 grn. pellet will not be available in the box anymore. They will only be available in the tin. And the .177 cal. 10.5 grn. will still be available in the box. I do not know about the .177 cal. 7.9 grn. Premier lights.



  26. The job as technical director of Air Force sounds pretty demanding. Dealing with irate customers gets old pretty fast.

    I’ve got an air leak problem of my own. My Daisy 747 has the cocking lever swing open after firing. Under Derrick’s direction, I turned down the internal adjustment cylinder a few notches. But while that works at first, the problem always returned. I’m going to have to send it back to Derrick to have a look in person.

    Matt61


  27. Does anybody know if I made a boo boo by ordering my gun with ten for ten on a Thursday night? It didn’t get processed till Friday, then they either tested that day or more likely did the test today, and it doesn’t say it shipped today so it won’t ship til Monday right? Aaaaaah!! Bummer, that means it won’t arrive til Wednesday which will be 7 days on a 2 day shipping order. Guys, plan accordingly when getting the ten for ten. Place your orders on a Monday or Tuesday or you’ll be :( if your impatient like me.


    • Does pyramyd not ship on Saturdays? If they do and it didn’t go…. uuurrhg, if it did and it just didn’t update then great. We’ll find out Monday, hopefully it went because it should’ve. Is that clock moving really slow or is it just me?



      • I guess we’ll find out which one’s worse for you, Huh?
        congratulations on your newfound lil frien’ & good luck with the repairs!( 2 guns in 1 week?-I’m jealous!)


      • RDNA
        It usually takes me 3 days to get my order from PA. From what I have seen is If I order on Friday it will usually ship that day if I make my order before 11:00am. If I order over the weekend it doesn’t usually ship till Monday.

        Maybe other people have had other experiences with their orders but that’s usually what I see. And I try to order on Monday’s and then I know I will have my order before the weekend. Almost always I will get it by Wednesday.


  28. Hello B.B.,

    This is off topic, but have you seen that Pryamyd now has a Sheridan model 2260MB available? It is a limited edition with a special metal breech (looks like a Discovery breech). It looks interesting.

    Thanks.


    • Curtis,
      This is the reissue of the Crosman 2260 rifle with the Crosman steel breech. The rifle was discontinued a couple years ago. It’s the rifle version of the Crosman 2240 CO2 pistol. Its a very good quality gun.



  29. Has anybody ever had a Benjamin pump rebuilt? Mine is now pushing me back up with great force when I;m pushing the down stroke at about half way.Plus when I release the bleed valve,the handle pushes back up.This pump shaft went bone dry on me last fall and I did not catch that in time.I ordered the lube from P.air and applied it and it immediately started working much better but I could hear different sounds in it with a strange clicking noise when the handle was pulled in the fully up position.Took all winter of me using it until it finally pootered out and I knew it was coming just a matter of time.Going to order a Hill pump in a few days as BB said he’s had no problem with his plus I don’t recall anyone having trouble with a hill near as much as these others and Hill says you can order replacement parts for there pump.All the others say don’t touch nothing inside or the warranty is void.So for about $80.00 more one can get a pump with a life time warranty. Wish I had known this five years ago!Live and learn.Anyway I will have this one rebuilt and just in case I ever needed one again.Plus I will build a storage case for the Hill to keep out any dust etc.when not in use.So can anyone advise me what they think has happened to this pump and a ball park cost for this rebuild job or is it even worth it?



      • Derrick,thanks for taking the time looking up that info. on the pump.I took a look at it and well lets just say if it ain’t screen door technology its way over my head.I would rather pay a tech.that knows what he is doing because I;d have this thing all fubared up! And BB strongly advised against going inside one even dust in the room can mess these things up he said. So my gut says leave it alone and let the pros’s take care of it.I guess P.air repairs these? I’ll call and find out next week.


        • steve
          Busy weekend for me. Haven’t had the chance to get on the computer.

          Derrick is right about the pumps. I rebuilt my Benjamin pump once. And also ordered a extra o-ring kit for it so I could have a backup available. I think the kit was like 10 or 15 bucks if I remember right through Sun Optics.

          The little white o-ring was the culprit on my pump. And the reason I had to replace that o-ring/rebuild my pump was because I over lubricated the pump and it started to get hydraulic lock.

          That o-ring was tore in half and you wouldn’t believe how much lube came out of the power piston cylinder. And I thought I was doing a good thing by lubing it every time.

          Maybe BB has seen this also with his rebuilding experience. All I know is I didn’t do my pump no good.


          • GF1,

            The small white o-ring is almost always failed. It is heat that does it. And the ring will be a yellow color when you see it.

            No lubrication is ever required on these pumps. They come lubed from the factory with moly grease, and I have kept them running without lubing for as long a 12 years.

            B.B.


            • BB
              Yep that o-ring was yellow when I rebuilt my Benjamin pump. I didn’t realize that the heat caused the discoloration. I should though. Alot of heat being generated to make the high pressure happen.

              And I wish I would of known sooner about not lubricating the hand pump. But just thought I would let you know this. The instructions that came with my Shoebox says to lube around every 3 hours of use with silicone grease. And I do know that needs to be done lightly. If you don’t you can hear the pump slowing down. And to much and the o-rings will probably need changed. Well in my case that’s what happened. I was lubing every time I used it.

              So now I lube the Shoebox like the instructions say and its been going strong about 2 years now. When I over lubed the pump when I first got it. It took only a few months and one of the little white o-rings failed. I guess its wise to follow the instructions when they come with a product.


  30. B.B.,
    Any chance a company is coming up with a SSP that shoots about 10 to 12 ft-Lb?
    That would be an air rifle I would buy. I had enough of the PCP, and I don’t need +14 ft-Lb of power.


  31. I would love to see the paradigm in production, I think it could put ssp’s in the toolbox for a lot of hunters, Somewhere between msp’s and pcp’s, kinda like the springer without the recoil!


  32. B.B. When you test a msp, you keep adding 1 pump until the gun starts retaining air for a second shot correct? I remember getting to 18 on my 392 with negligible air left(maybe 1/10th of a pump). I guess I really need a chrony to find the sweet spot,but, where should I stop?
    I can see why Mac1 does the billet lever & spring steel pivot link. The 3120 I got has no flex & feels nothing like the 392 while pumping.


  33. Does anyone know anything about an old Italian pistol labeled mondial, in a diamond shaped logo, smooth bore breakbarrel called “Oklahoma”, looks fairly old, 60s or 70s Id guess. I have one from a buddy wants me to get it running, might buy it from him,



      • Yea its not expensive looking but classic simple, pretty strong, got it completely stripped down, cleaned up, added a bumper in the chamber head. Need to replace or reattach the piston heads rubber face piece, the leather seal is good, a little rust in the tube. Everything else is tops. Think there’s a spring spost to keep the barrel up by holding the linkage after its cocked, the barrel doesn’t stay up by itself. Cool little project. Antique springer plinker pistol. I ended up giving about 30 in trade so not a steal but I think its awesome so worth it.



          • It had no problems cycling before taking it down, but I knew it needed something to keep the barrel up and that it was filthy, so took it down and found the other little fixes, without a chrony I can only guess but alloys must’ve been about 350fps. The transfer port has a big leather bushing seated on the piston side that acts as the breech seal and that was almost swelled shut. We will see her shoot when its all brought up to code.


            • I was just thinking… check the cocking linkage and corresponding parts of the receiver for ball detent dents or grooves. Hope this helps!


              • Looking it up shows it apparently made 1990, but its so cheaply made it looks 20years older, there’s a lever that’s missing that holds and releases the barrel. Thanks, two new guns! That is cool, now I have a total of 3! Always been one of those “beware the man with one gun” types, replace them as they come, master them before they go. Some said 200 fps for the Oklahoma, so 350 with alloy was I pretty good questimate Id say. Ruger blackhawk elite is completely customized and a sweet shooter, the Benjamin NP limited is on its way, .22, all a man could ask for in my world. Survivalist minimalist type. Little plinker pistol, .177 target tack driver, .22 gas piston hunting rig, I want need a new gun for awhile. But this will be the first time having more then two at the same time. Going to start holding on to them now that they’re starting to be worth holding to. My 4 year old daughter is unbelievablely smart, going to pick up some good nerf guns, she wants to shoot with me already, hopefully she can be as interested in doing stuff with me when she’s older. My hobby has really become the lifestyle people say it is, I’ve matured in airgunning and can really appreciate the bonding, feeling of success, and that you’ll never run out of things you can do. I can spend an hour in the woods with a herd of wild cans and plastic toys, hit bulls across my kitchen with a plinker, or have a great time baggin small game for a delicious dinner Im always proud of.


  34. thankes for all the info,I had Talon Tunes tune and instal a extra air chamber a 18 mos ago. I have checked for air leakes with soapie water. I will try the silcan oil on the fill nippel next’


  35. I’m off subject, and it is late on Sonday. I got the new s-rod last wed. My first impression was a bit dissapointing, the synthetic stock looks kind of cheesy to me. The wood stock was backloged until about July, and I am not that patient. I got over it quickly after shooting it. The trigger is great, and until now I realy did not recognise the recoil of my springer. I sure recognise it now! Such a smooth shooting piece of equipment. The pump is quite a workout, I’ll be getting a scuba tank in a couple of weeks. It has been recomended to me to use JB bore paste on the new barrel by several folks. I have found it to be out of stock everywhere, P-air estimates it to be instock is a few weeks, but if it is out everywhere I am having questions about if it is still going to be available. Maybe it is just spring fever, everyone getting their guns out and shooting. Is there a comparable product out there?
    The second question for tonight is regarding the front sight for my Diana 45. I posted a couple of weeks ago about my ailing Diana 45, had a bent barrel. Oh well I guess I can’t hurt it now, so I bent it back. Seems to shoot pretty good. I mounted a scope on it and used the droop mount for it. I consistantly got a 3/4 inch wide by 2 1/2 inch tall group with it. Played with it for a while, but when the S-rod came the scope switched to it, and I put a Beeman peep sight on the Diana. I get a very consistant 1.25 group with it at 27 yards. That is great, except I can’t quite get the peep low enough. Is there a front sight that is slightly higher that the beeman? I have seen some of the adjustable front sights on P-air, but I would like to keep it simple. Do the specs of the available front sights state how tall they are? All help is appreciated.


    • Mark, I pulled this from a site that was all homemade gun related products and substitutes, ” An excellent bore polishing paste that works as well as JB’s can be made from equal parts of BonAmiā„¢, paste wax (like Johnson & Johnson or Butchers), and light oil. The BonAmi is the “doesn’t scratch” product. Regular abrasive cleansers may be too harsh for use in a bore.” They really seemed to know there stuff, and theres dozens of recipes and substitutions. I’ll post the name of the site in a sec.


    • Mark T
      Just wanted to say ain’t it funny how much you notice that them springer’s kick after shooting a PCP.

      And I know alot of people clean their bores on their barrels when they get a new gun. But I have to tell you about what I have seen with the Benjamin/Crosman guns.

      Clean barrels. From my first shot to I don’t know how many shots that have been fired I have always had good groups with my Marauder rifles, pistol and 1720T. Oh sorry forgot my shroud did cause me a bit of a problem on my Marauder pistol that I had. But it definatly wasn’t because the barrel was dirty. So that has been what I have seen. I guess I’m lucky. But anyway a little ruba,dub, dub never hurt anything. :)


      • Oh and it still seems to me that it is something about your hold that is giving the vertical groups. That is kind of common from spring guns. It seems that every time you tell what is happening that you group pretty consistently but you see a vertical pattern.

        I would say try holding the gun differently. The famous artillery hold seems to work well on springer’s. But I have seen when some guns need to be gripped a little tighter. Some times the the hand in front or sometimes the gun needs pulled into the shoulder. Try some different ways but put a note on the target so just in case a hold works a little better you have something to reference back to.


    • Mark,

      These air rifles are made with proprietary sights, so you’re not going to find substitutes. Your best bet is to modify the sight you have. Most folks add some height to the front blade and JB Weld it in place.

      B.B.


      • Thanks all, i’ll figure out something to make the front sight a bit taller. Yea that tall narrow pattern with the scope was annoying. Once I put the peep on the Diana the groups are as tall as they are wide, about 1.25″ at 27 yards. Looks like the scope was adjusted out of range of it’s reasonable adjustment. That scope is now on the s-rod, and seems to be working as expected. I did get the chrony, and the Diana shoots at 700fps on the first shot when cold, after 20 quick shots the speed fluctuates between 730 and 740 fps. Seems pretty reasonable to me for that old girl. I like shooting with the peep on it, knocks those steel disks over just fine.
        Playing with the s-rod has been fun. Still have it set up as it arrived, so far I have been trying different pellets starting with a 3000psi charge recording fps and group sizes down to 1300 psi charge. So far no pellets have jumped out as being “the one”. I’ll probably adjust the speed down some soon. Having fun though!


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