by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
The Lightweight Disco Double in its new stock looks striking!
This is a third look at the Disco Double shooting at 50 yards. All I’ve managed to do so far is demonstrate the Disco Double is very consistently mediocre with the best pellets — JSB Exact Jumbo RS domes. However, the last time I was out at the range with this rifle, I finally did what the builder, Lloyd Sikes, has been telling me to do all along. He said to tighten the 6 screws on the 2 barrel bands or hangers, and this time I followed his directions. Guess what? Four of the 6 screws were loose! Imagine that! I tightened them and knew the rifle would reward me for the effort.
It was no surprise when shot the best 10-shot group ever with the rifle. Ten RS pellets went into 1.195 inches at 50 yards. But I was 3 shots into a second group when the bolt handle broke off in my hand during cocking. That ended the day for this rifle.
Ten shots went into 1.195 inches at 50 yards. This is the tightest group this rifle has fired to this point, and all I had to do was tighten a few screws.
The bolt handle broke off during cocking. This isn’t common, but it can happen.
As soon as I returned home, I emailed Lloyd, who put a new bolt and handle in the mail right away. I really wanted to finish the test before leaving for the Ohio airgun show (which is this Saturday), so I disassembled the rifle. I ran into a problem getting the old bolt out, but a call to Lloyd set me on the right path and soon the job was done.
The new parts arrived the following week, and I had them in the rifle inside an hour — though another call to Lloyd was necessary. He was most helpful, and I resolved my problem with a minimum of fuss. The rifle went back together, and I was ready to return to the range.
This time, I took the opportunity to mount a new UTG 6-24X56 scope scope in place of the UTG True Hunter 3-9X40 scope I took off. Naturally, the target image was much larger with this scope, which just made my job easier.
I tried several pellets that I’ve tried before, but once more this rifle demonstrated that it likes the JSB Exact Jumbo RS pellets the best. Since the rifle had been taken apart for the bolt repair (i.e., both barrel bands had been removed), I was back at the beginning on the first group. I had the front band about where it had been before (from the screw marks in the paint), and the first group of 10 went into 1.28 inches at 50 yards. That was marginally better than the 1.317-inch group I’d gotten during the previous full test, but not quite as good as the one group I shot just before the bolt broke (1.193 inches). All the screws were tight, so now it was time to move the front barrel band.
After the barrel bands were reinstalled but before the front band was moved, I put 10 JSB RS pellets into this 1.28-inch group at 50 yards.
Harmonics
In case you don’t understand what moving the front barrel band has to do with accuracy, it comes down to harmonics. By changing the location of where the barrel is anchored, I changed how the barrel vibrates during the shot. I did a huge 11-part test of this effect a few years ago. You can read about it here.
I moved the front barrel band backwards about a half inch and tightened the 3 screws once more. Then, I fired another group of 10 shots. This time, 10 RS pellets went into 0.816 inches. That’s pretty telling, don’t you think? Of course, I have no way of knowing if I have the barrel band adjusted perfectly — all I know is that it’s better than it was before.
After moving the front barrel band, I put 10 RS pellet into 0.816 inches at 50 yards.
A second 10-shot group went into 1.506 inches. Oops! Was that supposed to happen? Its difficult to say, but perhaps I wasn’t concentrating while shooting this group. I simply don’t know. Stuff happens to me, just like anyone else!
The next 10 RS pellets made this 1.506-inch group.
So I shot a third 10-shot group. This one measures 0.961 inches between centers. That’s better.
A final 10-shot group of RS pellets went into 0.961 inches.
The results
What I can tell you now is the that Disco Double is able to put 10 pellets into less than an inch at 50 yards under ideal conditions. I’ve shown you everything that’s happened, and I could go on and continue to test this rifle until I have it shooting its best. I probably will, in fact. But the lesson is what I’ve shown you today.
The Benjamin Discovery is an inexpensive PCP that can put 10 pellets into less than one inch at 50 yards under ideal conditions. The Disco Double I am testing for you here has a lot of extra work done to it and is not as inexpensive as the basic Discovery. However, this is the air rifle I wanted. It’s small, it’s accurate, it has a wonderful trigger and this one gets a load of shots on a fill of just 2,000 psi. That’s everything I wanted in a PCP.
Best of all, this rifle weighs no more and is no larger than a standard Discovery. Despite the additional air capacity, I had to sacrifice nothing. That was the real reason I had this air rifle built. Lloyd Sikes has a wonderful thing going here. If you’re interested in what he can do for you, find him at Airgun Lab.
I’m glad you finally got ‘er dialed in! Congrats B.B.!
Is mos2 the only lubricant I need for a springer?
This is the stuff we used to use in CV joints!
Reb,
Please, slow down!
I wrote a 13-part report that covers lubricating a spring gun. See it here:
/blog/2006/08/spring-gun-tune-part-13-range-testing-the-r1-we-tuned/
This covers nearly everything you are wanting to do.
B.B.
Sorry B.B., I guess I’m excited about my order. I’ve been looking thru the archives trying to find some good info, so the link is much appreciated. What do you think about the graphite?
Thank you Sir
Reb
Reb,
Graphite is a good dry lubricant for friction reduction, but with moly available I don’t think it has a place in airguns.
B.B.
Thanks again B.B., Looks like ARH will be getting my next chunka change!
I guess it would help if I referred to them as spring guns rather than springers.
I have some anhydrous graphite that I use on my triggers. Would this serve a purpose inside a springer?
This stuff is SUPER slick but the anny kind of scares me around a possible leather seal. I’m gonna start building a spring compressor next week, after I enjoy my new toys this weekend. 🙂
Using dry and wet lubes together could make a fine mess, I would degrease the whole thing and always use the graphite for everything besides the every thousand mile chamber drop. That would probably work out and keep a nice clean dry gun. How many more kinds of lube do you have up that sleeve of yours?
It’s looking like Air Rifle Headquarters has the monopoly on velocity tar, but I’m still scratching my head on that one! 😉
I clean and polish all the trigger parts before using this and the closest they come to oil is when I wipe them down. Makes for an awesome trigger, Even helped the 392!
You make a good point about the condensation however It’s also waterproof! Mixing with oil or grease would probably result in a gummy mess. Let’s see if anyone else weighs in.
Just came up with a possible substitute for velocity tar! I despise waiting for mail orders! I’ll get all the info off the product and share here later for evaluation.
Reb
But I wouldn’t put any inside.
Please clarify.
Well, the piston compressing air creates moisture so a dry lube could never really be good in there, but hinges and trigger etc… I would use it. About that hunk of wood… maybe you could have it finished by the time I ever got down there, me and the family want to get down south but, despite the attractive gun laws, it won’t be Texas. No offense. 😉
It’s about 3-400 #s. I’ve considered having it split into 4 or maybe even more blanks but don’t wanna wreck it. I really need a huge table saw and a case of spinach! 😀
I can’t blame you. Arkansas and Louisianna are looking more tempting all the time. It ain’t paradise, but it works for now!
BB
Looking back at the previous parts that you done on this topic band clamp tightness and location was brought up a few times.
Glad you finally gave it a try.
And kind of tricky to get to that set screw that is under the bolt that holds the breech on aint it. 😉
GF1,
Have you been talking to Lloyd? 😉
B.B.
BB
Your up late again. Or up early.
But no I haven’t talked to Lloyd in a while. I tryed calling him the other day and didn’t get through; but I’m sure he is busy. I need to ask him how things are going with the double tube for the Marauder rifles. Not much I can say there yet without talking to Lloyd first. I’m pretty sure you know what I’m talking about. Maybe he will have some news to share about that if he responds today. I hope because that has been driving me crazy. And Dave at RAI that makes that adapter to put the AR butt stocks on the Crosman/Benjamin guns knows whats been up. And I have some of his adapters on my guns now. He wants to put up some pictures on his website of a few of my guns. So all I can say is will see.
And I’m really glad the barrel band clamp tricks worked out for you. That’s like I talked in the past I got my Disco clamped hard. Well I had 2 Discos. A.177 cal. and a .22 cal. And guess what both front band clamps closest to the muzzle end are in different places on each gun. So I believe the harmonics is playing a major part in the performance on the Discovery’s.
Now my .25 cal. Marauder rifle and my new .177 synthetic stock Marauders are a different story. I don’t use the front barrel band on either of those guns. The barrel and shroud float right off the breech. And I slide the shroud and adapter that holds the shroud to the barrel forward to reduce the harmonics. And it actually helps the gun out in another way. But I will be (quiet) about that. But that is the key word if you know what I mean.
And there’s all kinds of little tricky situations you run into on them Crosman/Benjamin Pump, PCP and Co2 guns when you taking them apart or swapping parts around on them. Messed around switching parts around on them guns for too long. Not much up on working on the springer’s but give me one of the guns I just mentioned and I’m ready for some fun.
Anyway are you at the show yet or is that happen on the weekend. Or are you still driving. You didn’t come up through Illinois did you on the way up to Ohio?
GF1,
I’m in Solon, Ohio. Came up through Tenn.
Going to see Pyramyd AIR today.
B.B.
BB
Ok was wondering what route you took. I know you said you were dropping some guns off that you tested or something on those lines.
You going to pick any up for some tests later on? Maybe like some Crosman np2’s. I hope. 🙂
GF1,
No plans to pick anything up except a very special Leapers scope.
Crosman is sending me an NP2 before they go out to the dealers, so I will get one ahead of time.
B.B.
BB
That sounds like that Leapers scope could be a surprise. Especially if its the one you talked about in the past if I remember right.
GF1,
No, this is something brand new and very special.
B.B.
BB
Sounds interesting. Can’t wait to hear about it.
GF1,
Crosman NP2 rifles aren’t available for sale, yet. But when they are, Tom will test them.
Edith
Edith thanks. But…
I was just see’n if just maybe BB would bring us back a surprise from the trip. 🙂
Really, “stopping by pyramyd” to us is like winning the golden ticket, and to be returning some borrowed items from an old friend? That’s practically being an oompa loompa! But without the height restrictions, and bad complextion…..
Oh, and without the terrifying history of how you got there.
My buddy has the NPs barrel to get it rethreaded, he’s a full time machinist with his own cnc factory in his basement. Unbelievable machines. Funny too was I was still nervous to leave the part with him overnight, and he’s a pro! My new baby’s missing her , I don’t know, spine? If the piston is the heart, then I guess Im dress shopping for a stock! Got to give em the loving they need… lol
RDNA
If you know your buddy well you don’t need to worry. What kind of stuff does he make. Does he have vertical or horizontal cnc’s? My nephew is a cnc programmer. Its amazing what those cnc’s will do.
I myself always wanted to get myself a Bridgeport and a nice Harding lathe all through the years. But I really have been lucky because work will let me come in early or stay late and even come in on the weekends and do my own projects if I want. We have even wrote programs to do stuff on the cnc’s on the weekends if a machine wasn’t scheduled to run and if it didn’t have a job in it.
So I would say your a lucky man to have a machinist as a friend. 🙂
Oh yeah he’s a good man, I believe they are usually plates that carry electrical components, very specific little spaces. He makes thousands upon thousands constantly. There are dozens of hundred gallon drums that get filled with the aluminum shavings and picked up. Im not sure the way they go but there are three or four different cnc machines and every other lathe, saw, grinder, you name it. He works on classic cars when he’s not making the units.
RDNA
That’s been pretty close to my life for the last thirty something years. And I still get amazed at some of the stuff that’s done. My nephew made a program that machined a ball that was inside of a cube.
This is one of the machines that has kept or place going since the 70’s. Rotary transfer machines. Mostly known as Hydromats. There a Swiss designed machine. They have up to 16 horizontal machining stations plus vertical stations that can machine at the same place as a horizontal. Then there is a station that inverts the part so we can machine both sides of the part. We can offset turn or drill. And we can mill slots or broach. And threading units. that can be done in multiple places. We even have stand alone 3 axis cnc units that can be put in multiple stations on the machine. The machines can hold up to .0003″ ( I didn’t get my decimal point in the wrong place either. Yes we can hold a tolerance under a half thousandth). And the machine will produce a part about every 6 to 10 seconds depending on material.
I don’t know why I just got into all of that. Ain’t everyday that I get to talk about the machine shop world you know. Anyway I’m done yapp’n now.
You got into all that because its practically a miracle to see these thing zap a piece of blank metal into a part virtually limited by the imagination and determined by the input numbers you tell it. I am just as impressed by it all and I’ll ask him what he’s got for machines and try an get you a better idea of what they are. Going this afternoon so probably about 1-2o’clock
RDNA
Let me know how your shroud work turned out. And yep let me know about your buddy’s machines.
I’ve only run a brake lathe & tubing bender, so far but I did many CAD designs back in school, so I gaze in amazement at how someone could ever learn all the stuff that could be done with such a piece of equipment!
Bit of trivia
Did you know, a 3 second charge of oxy acetyline mixture will send a croquet ball outta 3″OD tubing @ over 800fps for a range of 500 yards?
Reb
You guys would’ve loved my mortar launcher!
For all you Texas hunters: Next season, you can legally hunt squirrels with airguns:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/more-sports/outdoors/20140409-sasser-squirrels-to-be-fair-game-with-air-rifles.ece
Edith
I have been waiting for this! I’d much rather be shooting a skirted pellet at an upward angle than a bullet.
No Rabbit or dove?
Thank You Edith
Reb
Edith
That was a good article. And then another reason for me to move to Texas. 🙂
BB,
funny that I had also replaced the bolt handle on my Disco some years ago. As I recall, Crosman quickly put another one in the mail to me at no charge so I suspect that a number of handles had that problem – they were too thin at the boundary where the threads were cut and couldn’t take the constant stress of cocking the bolt – my conclusion based on only my reasoning.
Anyway, glad you’ve got the Disco shooting well and Lloyd’s modifications are a commendable and worthwhile improvement to the basic design. Good for you, Lloyd!
Fred DPRoNJ
I discussed this with a friend last night. It’s been cut down so much that a drop or fall, impacting the bolt looks like an abrupt end to shooting for a few days.
Ten shots inside of an inch at 50 yards is good. Are there quality control issues with this rifle with the bolt handle breaking and the screws coming loose? It reminds me of my B30 until it got tuned and worked over.
FredPDRofNJ, it’s actually kind of interesting to look at the history of Superman to see how his powers have grown. The original version actually could not fly but could only “leap tall buildings at a single bound” like the Incredible Hulk. And he wasn’t actually invincible. His skin would withstand a bursting shell as the limit. But later versions had him flying in space at the speed of light and surviving nuclear blasts. I think that was part of the problem. He was so powerful that he became uninteresting. And I was never convinced that such a buff guy could disguise his identity with just a pair of glasses. Maybe his powers were, ironically, why he was finally killed of by the creators. There was nothing else to do with him. So he was taken out by a no-account underground creature named Doomsday, although I think he might have been resurrected in later comics, or in the movies at any rate.
Titus, your archery story makes me think that I have a long road ahead. I was sort of hoping that my shooting practice would translate into archery, but it sounds like there’s a whole lifetime of specialized training for that. On the other hand, there is the inspiring story of Sheila Taormina who is the only person, or at least American, to qualify for the Olympics in three (or maybe four) different sports. Having won a gold medal in swimming, she managed to qualify for the modern heptathlon in some later Olympics which includes shooting as well as horse jumping and fencing. So, I guess it depends on the individual.
Matt61
The disco as it is is kind of a mediocre gun, but in skilled hands it can be transformed into a formidable weapon. I have one I have worked on here and there. To date I had to put on a double tank because I have it hitting so hard at such a long distance that it really eats the air. I’ve totally gutted mine to the point all that is really a disco in it is the main body tube, barrel and breech. My breech bolt handle snapped off too so I replaced it with a stainless steel one with extended probe. That gave me a bit more power. I also replaced the Crosman air valve with a Boss max flow valve, a super duty hammer spring and a power adjuster. As it is this thing is able to take out raccoons at a good 45 yards with authority and serious accuracy. I keep it quiet with a TKO stage 5 muzzle brake so the neighbors don’t complain and nobody knows what I did. Every now and then my Polish blood shows and I can’t help liking shiney things so I got a nice fancy thumbhole stock when I got the double tank unit. I’m thinking about the repeater breech and shroud next then hydro-dip the metal parts in a ghostly skull pattern and make it a total show piece that is also a very formidable weapon. I’ll know just how formidable this evening when I chrony it. I’ll post results later today to show what one of these that is tuned to the maximum can do.
John,
The Disco is the VW Beetle of airguns. That’s why it’s so popular…look what you can do to it! Or, you can just leave it the way it came from the factory.
Many guns can’t be altered in any way. It’s almost as if Crosman wanted aftermarket tuners and modifiers to have a platform for upgrades and improvements. They seem to have a lot of guns that aftermarket modifiers can work on. Yet, other manufacturers make guns that can’t be modified in any way. Crosman is crazy like a fox 🙂
Edith
No doubt. And I did just that. Later today I’ll be setting up the chrony and showing what it can do when you max out the tuning you can do on it. I think plenty of people will be interested in what it can do when you do some serious tuning.
Ok. this is from my double disco withe heaviest pellets I had at 19.09 grains…Baracuda Hunter Extremes
chrony
886.4
881.5
872.5
869.8
861.1
860.1
860.1
856.2
850.5
840.5
838.8
Average 861.78
31.46 fp at the muzzle.
That’s some serious power with heavy pellets. This gun has every last upgrade I could throw at it and power adjuster maxed out on a heavy spring slamming into a boss max flow valve with an extended probe stainless steel bolt, double tank, thumbhole stock, upgraded adjustable trigger, and tko stage 5 6.5 inch muzzle break.
John,
It is nice to get a gun shooting like you want. That is nice power.
Lloyd
Gun is a total joy to shoot. I got that trigger down so it’s better than a match trigger with about 1.4 inch of travel and just sneeze at it and the trigger will pull. This thing is an incredible gun.
Edith,
The parts interchangeability in Crosman guns is pretty phenomenal. The Crosman engineers seem to be able to resist the urge to “fix” things with each new gun, which would throw all that interchangeability out the window. The Discovery can be shot straight out of the box, or can be totally tricked out like John has done. It is a great gun for tinkerers.
I am glad BB got the Disco shooting more accurately. It has the stock factory barrel with nothing special done to it, and I never shot it for accuracy before I sent it to Tom. It was my fault on the loose set screws. I had barely snugged them down when I shipped the gun because I didn’t want to mark the finish on the tubes if Tom wanted to move the bands around. Oops. A half inch shift in the band location really made a nice difference.
Lloyd did you get the stock figured out for the Marauder rifle?
Yes, came up with a couple of solutions, but they are still in the works.
Lloyd
Thats good news. I cant wait to see the finished product. Im totaly posative that it will be a nice kit. 🙂
I know that if the Discovery would have been available when I got back into airguns I would have snagged one back then. I ended up buying a used one in .22 and never regretted that purchase! I have nicer airguns, but the Discovery still comes out of the safe quite regularly.
/Dave
RifledDNA,
Nice job on yesterday’s blog! (wanted to comment on that yesterday, but I abruptly ran out of time after one sentence. Such is life for me these days…) It is tough to present your thoughts for others to see and be ready for public disagreement with your impressions of a new gun. I hope you’ll find the space to stretch that Benjamin’s legs and give us a part 2!
/Dave
I know this has probably been discussed, but looking at the various reports, is pellgun oil safe to use when lubing PLASTIC parts that move against other plastic parts? I know a lot of oils will attack plastic. Thanks, sorry if this is a stupid question.
I do not have the answer to your question, but it is not stupid.
Grant,
Pellgunoil must be safe for plastic. When you apply it to the tip of a CO2 cartridge, it blows the Pellgunoil throughout the gun. Many parts of the gun, which usually includes the CO2 cartridge holder, are plastic and will come in contact with the oil. Lastly, Pellgunoil comes in a plastic tube.
Edith
Edith,
Good answer, girl! 😉
B.B.
Thank you. I ask because I had to lube a plastic-to-plastic surface recently, and it was the only thing I was reasonably sure would not attack the POM, but I wasn’t entirely positive. Thank you for the help!
B.B,
This is of topic, but I need some advice I am wanting to get a used pcp rifle in .22 for hunting small game for pest control here in NZ. I have a short list of guns but I can’t really separate them. I am after a quiet & accurate performer the ones I am looking at are Air Arms S300, Benjamin Marauder (older model), Cometa Lynx (single shot), FX Royale 200 & T12. Is there any on this list that feel strongly about?
Many Thanks, Luke
Luke,
I do like the Marauder a lot. The Cometa is also nice, but here in the States it costs a lot more than the Marauder.
The other two rifles I’m not familiar with.
Welcome to the blog!
B.B.
BB
Well did you get your stuff done at PA?
Has the trip gave you a break from shooting?
GF1,
Yes, I got everything done. It was a wonderful visit.
B.B.
Thanks for that B.B. keep up the good work
Got to shoot the 880 today! Had a partial shot on the squirrel but he kept trying to hide, 5 Grackles(that last one sounded like it had a pocket full of rocks,THUD on the garage roof!) & 1 Yellowjacket, Rockin’! The gun’s still sighted in for Daisy wadcutters and the wind was gusting up to 35. Still got 3 @ 40 yards using CPHP!I’m hanging on to it for velocity testing which will be some time tomorrow.
I found some Crosman .177 pointed @ Wally’s, sure hope they’re as good as the .22’s!
Reb
Reb
You know the answer to that. All you can do is try them.
But it sounds like your gun is working good as is. 🙂
The question is the one below? V
Ain’t it nice when to know you can get your ammo almost anywhere and still,l X-marx the spot?!
I saw a Spanish RX2 for $80 today. Anyone Know this gun?
Thanks
Reb
If it’s the one I’m thinking, I’ll buy it tomorrow!
HELP!
Too god to be true! Yeah, that’s what I thought!The trigger is what drew me to the gun. Although I didn’t go through the whole cocking stroke, the gun is Heavy Duty and the trigger has minimal pre-load
The stock on this gun was absolutely hideous Just IMO.
B.B., My apologies, but remember when I said I was hooked?
Glad to see you got the Disco shooting good groups. I have a friend with a Disco that is having the same POI problems as yours. We will play with it Easter Sunday, eggs are real cheap around this holiday.
Question? Have you ever tried to use a Limbsaver barrel dampener? I realize the Disco has no room on the barrel for one, but what about on 2400 with 24″ barrel, or other rifles with barrel past band?
I was at the Findlay show, feel bad I didn’t get a chance to shake your hand. I had airgun fever, and was running laps around all the different tables.
Maybe next year, I would really enjoy picking your brain.
Keep up the good fight, Erockrocket
Erockrocket,
Welcome to the blog.
No, I haven’t tried the Limbsaver, although it has been recommended several times. Please let me know how you test works out.
B.B.
Got to test my friends Disco this past weekend.
We started with groups at 50yds. First groups were with the barrel band in stock factory location.
Groups were scattered all over. Moved the barrel band 3/4″ forward and bingo. Groups tightened to less than 1″ 10 shots.
Tried several locations for the band, none worked as well as 3/4″ forward of stock factory location.
Thanks for your write up, it helped us to diagnose this same issue with our Disco.
PS: I am aquiring a Belgium 801 in .177. Hope to do a comparison test vs. two other 801s I own. I really enjoy shooting these youth size oldies.
Question: What kind of ammo was available when the Belgium 801 was in production? Any idea weight and profile of pellet?
Erockrocket,
Glad to hear my writing has helped!
When the 801 was selling the pellets were domes that weighed around 8 grains. Try JSB and RWS Superdomes, but don’t overlook Crosman Premiers.
B.B.
For better accuracy, how about losing the rifle clamp closest to the muzzle, thus allow the barrel to “free float.”
Greg,
I hadn’t thought of doing that. It might work, though the barrel won’t be fully free-floated — only from the rear barrel band.
I don’t know. Lloyd — are you listening?
B.B.
Enjoy reading all the info I can on air guns. Older tool and die maker with all my tools yet. Enjoy making parts for older guns. Not too far into air guns yet but working on it.
Roy,
Welcome to the blog!
This is an older posting that not too many people will see. Please join us at the current blog, located here.
/blog//
We have lots of machinists like you who regularly contribute through their comments. I bet you will feel right at home.
B.B.