Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle: Part 1

by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier

Today’s report is a guest blog from a new reader, HiveSeeker. He wants to tell us about a pellet rifle he thinks highly of. This is a complete report with the description, velocities and test targets, so I am breaking it into two sections.

If you’d like to write a guest post for this blog, please email me.

Over to you, HiveSeeker.

This report covers:

• Description
• Sights
• Loading
• Ammo feed
• Velocity

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle

Winchester MP4 is a realistic and fun-to-shoot military replica pellet rifle.

Description
Considering the astonishing array of military rifle lookalikes in the airsoft world, it’s a shame that there are so few choices among airguns. But those who would enjoy shooting an accurate reproduction pellet rifle might consider the Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle. Styled closely after the AR15, this .177 airgun features a full-metal receiver, quad Picatinny rail forearm, working selector switch (safety), realistic magazine catch and adjustable stock — lots of authentic moving parts that are only fixed plastic on a number of the other military replicas. The forward bolt assist is only ornamental, but the charging handle (hereafter called the bolt) is fully functional. This also happens to be one of the few semiauto replica pellet rifles available. My ex-military brother-in-law experienced a fair amount of nostalgia shooting this rifle.

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle The selector switch, magazine catch (on right side of gun) and adjustable stock are fully functional. Note the position of the fully inserted CO2 clip, which looks like the ammo magazine.

Sights
The first thing you’ll want to do after unboxing the MP4 is remove the cheap plastic open sights — among the unfriendliest I’ve ever squinted through. They’re not individually adjustable, and the manual doesn’t include one word about them. Just know that you can raise or lower the aiming point by moving the front sight closer or farther in relation to the rear sight; they apparently cannot be adjusted for windage. [Editor's note: The manual and Winchester's website state the rear sight is adjustable, so we asked the manufacturer about it. They say it's not adjustable and plan to remove that statement from their website and from future reprints of the manual.]

A red dot sight works well (and looks tacti-cool) on this gun, though I primarily used a Leapers UTG 3-9×32 Bug Buster scope, which also looks very good. The all-metal receiver provides a very solid platform for mounting optics compared to the plastic receivers of some other contenders in the military pellet rifle arena. Despite being a low-recoil CO2 gun, the bolt recocking mechanism apparently generates some vibration. As a shooter who admittedly tends to over-tighten everything, I was stunned to find my scope mounts loose after about 300 shots. Keep an eye on this.

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle You’ll want to replace the plastic open sights right away.

Winchester MP4 red dot

Winchester MP4 scope
The MP4 looks ready for combat with either a red dot sight or compact scope. That quad Picatinny rail is just begging for more accessories!

Loading
This gun requires two 12-gram CO2 cartridges. You can spend all day trying to “remove the cover from the base of the CO2 clip by inserting a finger into the ammunition magazine hole and pulling the cover off” (as the manual suggests). There’s no hidden release, and the instructions of course mean the larger CO2 clip hole to the right (go ahead and laugh, manual-spurners).

My CO2 clip fits very tightly in the receiver; and the first time I tried to shoot this gun, it took me a couple trigger pulls to realize the clip was not seated all the way. Look closely at the photos to see how far the clip must slide in. Clip insertion and removal are slightly smoother now but initially required a fair amount of pressure.

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle Remove the CO2 clip cover by inserting a finger into the larger hole on the right (not the smaller one on the left) and pulling up. It’s easy if you’re not following the wrong instructions! The plastic key above the clip cover is used for installing the CO2 cartridges.

Ammo feed
Exercise more care in gently inserting the ammunition magazine, however, as the thin plastic of the round rotary drums is easily cracked. A magazine holds 16 pellets or BBs, though this is a bit deceptive. There are only 8 rounds in each end, and you have to perform a magazine flip to shoot all 16 rounds. I suggest buying at least a couple extra magazines. The buttplate I found to be uncomfortably hard, but a rubber AR-15 add-on fit perfectly, as will most other AR accessories, except anything for the nonstandard pistol grip. My next add-on will be a bipod, which should fit perfectly on the forearm.

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle Insert the ammunition magazine gently. The thin plastic of the 2 rotary drums is easily cracked.

If you’ve read any reviews of the Winchester MP4, then you already know that there’s a major ammo feed issue with this gun. Mine is no exception, but so far the problem has been occasional enough to live with — only about 1 pellet out of every 1 to 2 magazines (averaging around 5%) is failing to fire. This is despite carefully using a pellet seat; a tiny ridge inside each individual drum cavity stops the skirt, allowing consistent loading of each pellet. Other owners, however, have experienced a much worse problem, so I’m keeping my gun as is.

Velocity
Let’s look at some chronograph data. My 10-for-$10 test printout from Pyramyd Air with 7.1-grain Beeman Lasers showed a velocity range of 480-538 fps, with an average of 500 fps even. Waaay lower than the listed 700 fps (which I initially figured was just for BBs), as a number of reviewers have pointed out. For my own tests, I shot 10-shot strings at sea level, waiting one minute between shots, using a Shooting Chrony Beta Master. With 4-grain Crosman SSPs I got a range of 683-710 fps and an average of 694 fps in the better of two tests (air temperature was 88˚F).

Interestingly, the other test string averaged a lower 686 fps but contained my single-shot velocity record of 722 fps. So, the Winchester MP4’s velocity stated on the box is correct, and this gun indeed shoots just as fast as Daisy claims — and with pellets, no less. I did not test with BBs, although this gun is designed to shoot them, wishing to save my barrel (and its accuracy) for pellets only.

Testing with a more typical pellet, the 7.9-grain Crosman Premier Super Match, provided expectedly lower velocities: 487-562 fps with an average of 511 fps (at 84˚F). This was much closer to the 10-for-$10 results. Below are my average shot string velocities.

Shot string….Avg velocity
1-10…………………..511
11-20………………..496
21-30………………..483
31-40………….…….470
41-50…………….….449
51-60………………..444
61-70…………….….438
71-80………………..421

Summary
HiveSeeker continues his test with accuracy results in the next report. I’ll run that next week.

170 thoughts on “Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle: Part 1


    • Yeah BB. The Blog was unavailable for a bit. Maybe some folks will come back later. I informed Pyramyd Air and they let me know when it was back up.

      Good review.



      • Yeah, I also experienced problems to connect to the blog this morning. Any idea of what happened?

        Now, on the subject gun… First and foremost, HiveSeeker, good job! This is a nice post and very informative. I look forward for the next chapters.

        I went this morning to the local gun shop (which is not exactly local, as it is in a nearby town, but this is Brazil, not Texas!) and I was taking a look at the Crosman M4-177. I like its looks, but its multi-pump system disappoints me a little. I like this one a lot more! I can’t wait to see the accuracy results.

        And by the way, since this is a Friday post, maybe BB and HiveSeeker will allow me to invite everyone in this blog to watch the FIFA World Cup, which is taking place here in Brazil, the Country of Football! Not soccer… FOOTBALL. We had the first match yesterday, Brazil 3 X 1 Croatia. USA X Ghana is next Monday, in the city of Natal. Good luck, guys.


        • I did a fair amount of research before purchasing the Winchester MP4, and the Crosman M4-177 is hands-down the most popular military replica pellet rifle around as far as I could tell. The price is right and it has no major issues. What pushed me to the MP4? No pumping (I’m not as young as I once was) and semi-auto fire, but you do have to pay for it!



    • Thanks, all, for a very warm welcome. I’ve been browsing the blog for some time now, but this is the first opportunity I’ve had to return the favor for all that I’ve learned from Mr. Gaylord and crew. It’s a very knowledgeable—and supportive—group we’ve got here.

      I hadn’t been able to access the site since the MP4 blog posted, and the questions and comments have really stacked up. One thing I’ll mention is that a lot of those questions will be answered in Part 2, so if I seem to be ignoring your comment—I’m not. So without any further delay:

      I have to start by thanking “Charles M” for his detailed review of this gun at Pyramyd Air. (You own more pellets than I do!) Your review helped finalize my decision to buy this gun. I was hoping that my own review might be just as helpful, when it began growing totally out of control and I had to contact Mr. Gaylord for assistance.


  1. Okay, I’ll go. The guest review was well done, but the rifle itself seems to be a bit pricey for something coming with bad sights and reliability problems. I’d rather see no sights at all with the expectation of adding a scope, or alternately, a bit more expensive price-point with at least an acceptable sight set.


    • It is a cool looking replica AR platform. I am disappointed in the velocity test though For the money I would like to see 700 fps with the everyday crosman CPs instead of having to use super light SSPs to get close to that range. Hive seeker you did not say how many shots per CO2 cartridges you are getting.
      I agree with 103David that it would be better to sell it either with adjustable rear sight or none at all, I can live with plastic sights as long as the rear is adjustable, If you have to move the gun to be able to sight in on a target that would not be acceptable. It also sound like they cut corners on the magazine durability development.
      Overall it is a good looking gun it just does not seem to function as good as it looks. Having just completed my own from the ground up real AR build I would like to have a pellet gun that I could train in my backyard with that would be very close to my real AR but this does not seem capable of using as a simulator with the sub standard performance it has shown.
      Hopefully the accuracy is very good with the low FPS it should be , if it is not then what’s the point of making a replica if it cannot even get in the ballpark of the real thing.
      Buldawg


      • buldawg76, more velocity is almost always a plus, but everyone tests with the low-grain alloy pellets today so you need to take the “box” specs with a grain of salt. All I can say is that the everyday Joe can actually get the promised velocity with off-the-shelf product, and that’s more than can be said for some of what’s out there.

        As to the shots per 2 CO2 cartridges, please stay tuned.


        • Hiveseeker
          I will look forward to your part two review. I am in the process of getting new PC up and running so I may be a day or two behind for a little bit.
          Buldawg


    • I can’t disagree with you (and G & G farther below) one bit here, and part of what drove this particular purchase was the very limited number of options available for a military pellet rifle. I was well aware of all the problems up front, and my gun has them to only a minor degree. Since I was planning to scope this gun anyway, the sights were not really an issue. Compared to the problems some have experienced with the same product, I was very happy with what I ended up with. Hopefully, this reflects some increased quality control on Daisy’s part.


  2. The blog was down this morning. The URL referenced a PA page asking for comments as to what product “you” would like them to carry. I was going to ask for a life sized, inflatable squirrel but decided not to. One shot and you’d need another one. :)

    Fred DPRoNJ


  3. HiveSeeker

    Very well done report. Am very impressed by the clear pictures & precise info. Just wondering about the velocity. 24 grams should be doing better don’t you think? Do the co2 cartridges power it together or individually?

    Errol


    • Errol, apparently what you get with the 2 CO2 cartridges is more shots, not more velocity. They do appear to power it together (simultaneously).


    • CO2 is a constant pressure source until a cartridge runs out.

      This is due to it being mostly in liquid form with a small “bubble” of gas above it. The two are at an equilibrium in which molecules evaporate just as fast as others liquify. The “bubble” gets larger as one shoots down the CO2, but the pressure (if allowed to return to room temp) will be the same — doesn’t matter if it is one small cartridge, or a bottle the size of a fire-extinquisher.

      And since velocity tends to be tied to pressure… velocity will be the same…


  4. Under the cosmetic shell, the MP4 is the same as the Winchester-Daisy M14. However it costs twice as much! Does the ability to mount scopes and red dot sights justify the higher price? I would like to see a side to side comparison of both guns. I have 2 Daisy m14′s ( I have 2 grandsons,) ( that’s what I told my wife). They are accurate and I have had 0 problems with the way that they function. Ed P.S. has anyone come up with a scope mount for the M14?



    • This air gun may be in response to shooters complaining about all plastic air rifles. I believe it states that this has a metal receiver. I have a bit of a reluctance to buying an all plastic air gun, though a Crosman Model 66 I recently bought is quite accurate and has maybe the best trigger of any of my air rifles. Longevity, though, is a question.


    • zimbabwae ed, interestingly the M14 from—yes—the same manufacturer feeds ammo flawlessly with the same exact magazine. Although both guns share some parts and characteristics, I think there’s a fair amount of difference between the two, not the least of which is the metal receiver. I would be very curious to compare internal parts diagrams. From my initial military pellet rifle research, a lot of shooters—including myself—were turned off by the all-plastic stock and inability to mount a scope on the M14, however.


  5. HiveSeeker,

    Your report is very well written, informative and absolutely honest. A bit strangely you seem extremely enthusiastic about this rifle despite all of it’s shortcomings. Yes, I think it would be great fun to have a nice AR15 replica to plink around with; however, there are just too many bad features in this gun to make it the one to have. Terrible sights, very low power and frequent misfires. I’m afraid I’ll be waiting for a better AR15 replica to come out before I buy one. I appreciate your honesty in this report.

    G&G


  6. Ok. I been waiting for a good review of this. I like what I’m hearing. But if I get one it’s going to Drozdmax for a full auto tuning. I don’t want a burst fire. I want to rock and roll like the old M16a1 used to be able to do.


  7. Very good report and wonderful pictures. I’m not a CO2 fan but I can see if one was why this rifle would be interesting to have because of its realistic looks. The FPS. does not get me jumping for joy.But again good job! To each his own.


  8. HiveSeeker
    Very good job on the write up. And I just clicked the link and checked out the gun. Its semi-automatic? And it says it can shoot bb’s or pellets I guess from the same magazine. That’s interesting.

    So the gun will shoot one round after the other by just pulling the trigger I guess. And I read above and you said the selector switch is functionable. What does it control?

    And like always with me I’m interested to see what happens in part 2 with the accuracy test.


    • GF1,

      He said the selector switch works and then, in parentheses he wrote (safety). The selector on an M4 firearm is for semiauto, full auto and safe. So this selector is for semiauto and safe, because this gun doesn’t shoot full auto.

      B.B.



      • Thank you, Mr. Gaylord, for covering while I couldn’t access the blog. Correct, Gunfun1, on the semi-auto fire. I was cautious on how I worded “selector switch” but went with it because a lot of the civilian AR15s (which of course have no full auto) continue to label it as such. I’m sure you were not the only one wondering.


  9. BB and Everyone,

    I am going off topic here for a minute but I have run into a snag that you may be able to help me with. I have the Crosman 1720T and I want to put a rifle stock on it. I have looked all over the net and have struck out. Do you or anyone else here know who I might contact about this? I know others have done this but I have no idea who made them. The company that used to make stocks for the Marauder P (which is identical) is no longer in business. Do you think I would be happy with the RAI Adapter and Stock? I’m not crazy about the looks but how about the function? Thanks to all(especially if you can help)LOL.

    G&G


    • G&G
      I had the RAI adapter and AR stock on mine and it worked out great. It really makes the gun fit you after you get it on and adjusted. You can fine tune it so when you put the gun up to your shoulder with your eye’s closed. And when you open them you will be locked into position with your eye in the correct place to see through your scope right. And if your not at that point you need to adjust it more.
      Once you get it it fine tuned to your hold you will like it.

      And just so you know before the RAI adapter came out this is what I put on all of my Crosman pistols with that trigger assembly.
      http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Crosman_1399_Custom_Shoulder_Stock_Fits_Many_Crosman_Pistols/198

      I used the 1399 stock for many years with good luck. But the RAI adapter and AR stock changed everything for me anyway. It just makes the gun fit you more naturally.

      But only one way for you to find out. Try it. I think you will like it. :)


      • GF1,

        Thanks for you input on the RAI Adaptor and Stock. I figured that it would be very good functionally. It looks like that’s what I’m going to do. I have several of the 1399 Stocks laying around. I have always had luck with these also. In fact I bought from RB Grips a wood stock piece that fits inside of the 1399 with a matching fore grip. That set-up looks and works very well. Currently I have it on the Marauder Pistol. R.B. is out of business or I would try another set of those(different wood). Anyway, I think I’ll try the RAI set-up.

        G&G


        • G&G
          I would say to try at least one of the RAI adapters. Then you will know for sure.

          I will have to say if you dont like it. I would be willing to buy it from you. I like them and Im serious about the offer.


  10. I need to say that what happened with the blog this morning appeared to be exactly what I personally experienced over the Memorial day weekend period. This time I called the”888″ number and spoke with a representative who also experienced the same issue. I just got back from a couple of appointments and it pulled right up.I forgot the name but Thanks !

    Reb


  11. HiveSeeker,
    Does it feel like an accurate representation of your AR? If so it should be a fun and cost effective means of practice & training. Not for me but have a blast!


    • Reb, I’ve got to confess that I’m not a military man myself, but I did a fair amount of AR15 research before buying this and the gun appears quite accurate. My brother-in-law, who was occasionally the top qualifier in his squad, insists that it is spot-on. It brought out some good stories when I had the opportunity to let him shoot it.


  12. I too am surprised by the limited number of military style airguns on the market. Plus, most of the ones that are available are of the entry level variety. Recent attempts like the Crosman MTR77 proved a disappointment with it’s 45# cocking effort. Tooling up to make these guns I know is risky and expensive, but if the airsoft community has shown us anything it’s that people are willing to spend $300-400 plus for guns that look and function similar to the real thing.

    Airguns like the Umarex Steel Storm and Crosman 1077 have also proven folks like airguns that remind of their firearm cousins.

    A few companies, Umarex for one, seem to be trying to bring cloned military, etc airguns to market, but most fire BBs rather than pellets. Let’s face it round BB’s are easier to deal with in semi auto mode than pellets.

    Another problem is that the airgun community is a very conservative group IMO. Plus many of the quality products have roots in England and Europe which are places that may not always share of love of all things military.


    • Bub provides a pretty concise list of the limited options out there, along with the aforementioned Crosman M4-177 and Winchester M14. The only other one I’ll add to the list is the Crosman MK-177 which I own and love (yes, in spite of that left-handed bolt) and which I’ve found to be more accurate than the MP4 we’re looking at here.


  13. Oh and I just had other things that popped up and I couldn’t get on the computer at my usual time.

    Were still out here BB. Its just been one of those Friday the 13th day’s and its even a full moon tonight.

    Which brings me to this which is a bit off topic. PA is having their Friday the 13th sale today with 13% off.

    I really, really been wanting a field target type springer. And I been having the TX200 mrkIII on radar for a long while. But its going to be a while as usual for me to save up enough because it seems something always comes up and the money has to go for that. And dog gone it anyway you cant use the discount coupon for the TX200.

    But…. I hope I just made a good choice. And I hope it fills the need for the TX200 I have been wanting. If it turns out like I hope maybe this gun will make me happy enough that I wont worry about the TX so much.

    Well I just ordered one of these in .177 cal.
    http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Weihrauch_HW50S_Breakbarrel_Rifle/2152/3500

    I have always wanted one of the break barrel Weihrauch’s since back in the early 70′s when I was checking out my Air Rifle Headquarter catalogs when I was a kid. Of course no matter what I did back then it seemed I could never quite save up enough money to get one. And I did get a Diana 54 air king a number of years back and like it. But then I got caught up in the pcp thing.

    So I’m kind of excited to get it. And I hope it shoots smooth. And I hope that I’m not expecting more from it than I should. Does anybody else have one? If so I would like to know what you think about the one you have.


    • GF1,

      You will never regret buying a Weihrauch gun. They may not have exciting doodads on them, but they’re quality through and through. You will LOVE your new gun. I guarantee it!

      Edith


      • Thanks Edith.
        I hear a lot of good about them but I never ever have shot one. You know what I mean. And I always got that little voice telling me do you really think you will be happy.

        But this is one of the type of spring guns that I have wanted for a long time. So I waited a long time to get it. But I really can’t wait now that I finally ordered it. It won’t get here fast enough. :)


        • Gunfun 1,

          After you get a few miles on your new HW50S I’d like to know about the cocking effort. I have read some reports that some of the current guns of this model were almost as hard to cock as it’s bigger brother, the HW95/Beeman R9. You can put a layer of non-slip material (toolbox drawer liner works well) on top of a bathroom scale and measure the cocking effort. I think that’s what B.B. does.

          The reason I ask is because I have been thinking about getting one too. However, I do have an older (85? model) Beeman R7 .177, an HW95 .177, and a Beeman R9 .20 . What I can tell you about them that you will like the most is they are accurate, very accurate. The powerplant in the HW95/R9 does have some springer “twang”. This is my main gripe about the Weihrauch springers and why so many owners choose to get them professionally tuned. In just about every other aspect they are so good many people feel tuning is worth it. I have not had any of mine tuned yet but am definitely thinking about giving Paul Watts a call. Another thing I like is their power to weight ratio (they aren’t so dang heavy).

          I’m sure their are blog readers out their who have had a HW50S, maybe they will chime in.

          Hope this was helpful. David H


          • David H thanks a buch. And I will let you know how mine does.

            And if it seems like it needs tuned I want somebody doing it that knows what they are doing.

            Like i said I got caught up in the pcp gun thing. Its time to get back to the roots of airguning. I cant wait to shoot this gun.


            • GF1,

              I, too an am owner of the 50S and will confirm for you that this is one heck of an accurate rifle. It was the first rifle I owned that I actually scored a “100″ on the 10 M target sheet containing the silhouettes of the animals (don’t know what it’s called but if you need the URL to download and print them, I have it. Mine does buzz but I’m so happy with the accuracy and ease of use (cocking effort is fine for me) that I haven’t bothered to put some “tar” on the spring or install a spring guide. Need I say anything about the Rekord trigger…..?

              You will absolutely love this rifle.

              Fred DPRoNJ


              • Fred thanks. So you had good luck with yours then. That’s what I hope that I can just pick it up and shoot it and not have no worry’s.

                If you have that URL for those targets go head and put it up that would be great. I’m always interested in having some different types of targets.


    • GF1,

      I have the Weihrauch HW30S. I recently wrote here that if I had to pare down to one gun only(excluding PCPs) this is the one I would choose. That I think says a lot for Weihrauch. The HW30S shoots like a dream.

      G&G


      • G&G thanks and I do remember you saying that about your gun.

        The 50 is suppose to shoot around the mid 800′s with a 8 grn pellet.

        I chose the 50 for the lower cocking effort and hopefuly the acuracy will be there. I I hope I made the right choice of going for the lower velocity model.

        What velocity does your gun shoot at?


        • GF1,

          It has been awhile since I checked but my HW30S is shooting just under 700 FPS. By the way, I didn’t mention it before but I also have the R9 which is made by Weihrauch. Again, it is a wonderful rifle. It’s very accurate and looks very nice. Low cocking effort also and very smooth.

          G&G


          • G&G
            Good that makes me feel better about the fps that the 50 is making.

            Almost always when I hear people talk about the vintage springers; well and some of the newer model springers. They are happy when the lead pellet is flying 900fps or slower.

            im sure I will have fun with this gun. :)


        • GF1,
          You have messed up big time by getting that HW. Do not even bother opening the box, just forward it on to me and I will do something with it I guess. I know, I will send you a copy of a Mattelomatic. You will be much happier with it.


          • RR
            Ha Ha. Sorry but nope. I wanted one of these German guns for a long,long time. I’m pretty positive I will be happy with it.


            • I am seriously thinking of an HW 35E myself. After I sell a couple of my air rifles that I have, I think my “collection” will have room for one more air rifle and maybe one more air pistol.


    • GF, I have a Beeman R9 that I got a long time ago. Its made by Weihrauch, and I think pretty similar. you are going to like it a lot. Good luck!


      • Jim thanks.
        So that means you have been happy for a long,long time then. :)

        From what everybody is saying. I think I will be happy too.


    • Gf1,

      I don’t think you’ll have any regrets either. I like Weihrauchs enough that I have 2 and plan to get another!

      /Dave


      • /Dave
        Good. Im betting that I will be happy that I finally got me that German air gun that I always wanted.

        And you know me and how I like to mod things. Well I havent done a thing to my 54 air king and its shooting great still. Thats what I hope happens with this 50.


    • Gunfun1,

      Me, too. I ordered a HW50 yesterday. I like my Discovery, but I have wanted a moderately powerful, accurate, quiet, and lightweight breakbarrel. I’ll let you know how mine works out, and I look forward to reading about yours.

      RB


  14. I couldn’t see the blog earlier today, and then had some trouble trying to reply. But now I see all is well. I do like the looks of the rifle and the FPS, while disappointing, isn’t a deal breaker for me. But, the jammed pellets doesn’t set well. If it were a $30 BB guns that works on gravity feed, I understand a FTF. But on a pellet gun costing over $169, I expect more. Also I’m let down by the open sights. I guess one could install some Williams open sights (blade or peep). I do like that it is metal. I have to wonder if this isn’t just like the M-1 look a like Winchester M-1 with a different look and metal instead of plastic. Seems that gun’s price really dropped a short time after this gun came out. Thanks for the review Hive….very well done and looking forward to the rest!


  15. HiveSeeker,

    Welcome and well done!

    I have had one of these for a short time, and I agree, the sights are worthless. Actually, they are worse than worthless. I initially shot an 8 inch “group” with them at 10 meters. After I removed them, I shot it simply aligning the row of Weaver grooves at my target and the “group” shrank to 4 inches. You know when sights are bad if they are significantly worse than nothing at all! I have not shot it with optics yet, so I eagerly await your results.

    Did you find that quite a bit of gas escaped as you tightened the plastic key on the tabs? I’ve charged mine twice now, and that has been a problem for me.

    On the (big) plus side, when I opened mine up, I was impressed and surprised at how much this rifle weighs. An awful lot of the gun is metal, and to me it does not at all have a “plastic-y” feel. I decided to remove all of the Weaver gadget rails, which are plastic, from the barrel and found that with those off and the soda straw barrel exposed, there is almost no plastic left on the gun. My intent is to fashion a permanently installed (i.e. epoxied-on) protective shroud from the receiver to the muzzle and install a short scope to the remaining Weaver rail.

    I look forward to you next installment,

    Michael



    • Michael, the leaking gas is mentioned in the manual, but I’ve had no problem at all; just an initial bit of a hiss or pop when the first cartridge is installed (regardless of which side you install first). I haven’t used a pellet pen but found the accompanying pell set to be very helpful in consistently filling the ammo magazines.


  16. HiveSeeker,

    I almost forgot, I find that a pellet pen makes loading this type of double-ended clip a breeze. Without one, to me it is VERY tedious.

    Michael


  17. If this gun only shot .22 at this speed I could really get interested, especially with all those mounting posibilities! Bipod, laser, flashlight &Bug Buster or dot sight.


  18. HiveSeeker,

    I enjoyed your blog today. Well done! I also have one of these Winchester MP4 rifles, and despite its shortcomings I enjoy the rifle. Like you, I did discover that the scope ring mounting screws were loosened by vibrations in the rifles action. I also discovered that mine arrived with a loose barrel. Some of the Pyramyd Air customer reviews had mentioned this problem. So I took of the plastic barrel shrouds and checked my barrel. Sure enough, it wasn’t screwed in tight. I’ve used both a CenterPoint Multi-Tac Dot Sight and a Leapers 4×32 scope on mine. Accuracy with the dot sight and scope were pretty good with some pellets. I’m looking forward to reading your accuracy results.


    • Thanks, Charles Stoehr. I was hoping not to have to take my MP4 apart right away and it does not seem to have a loose barrel, based on my accuracy results (upcoming) compared to what other reviewers have gotten. Thanks for the more detailed instructions for those that may need them (keeping my own fingers crossed here).



  19. Very interesting blog, well written with nice quality pics. Well done!

    This thing is considered a firearm here due to the 700fps advertised velocity with all the licensing and permits that go along with it and the 8 shot clips… there has to be a way to make a better mag than those 8 shot clips. If something wrong ever happens, how will you get that stuck pellet/mag out of there?

    Those 2 Winchester/Daisy CO2 rifles are nice but with those mags… I’d rather stick with my fun yet a lot less accurate BB guns.

    J-F


    • J-F, given more time I’d like to try to determine what is causing the ammo feed problem and possibly how to eliminate it. I suspect that the problem may be at least partially related to individual CO2 clips or even ammo magazines, and am planning to order a couple replacement CO2 clips from Daisy/Winchester for testing. This is my roundabout way of stating that a replacement CO2 clip might “fix” a jammed ammo magazine if that ever happens.


  20. Very nice and professional-looking write-up. With HiveSeeker as a new reader, you just have to wonder who else is out there? HiveSeeker may want to read an interesting science fiction novel called Coalescent about future branches of humanity that like to live in carefully ordered hive communities.

    Nice looking gun that beats the pants off the old M4 airsoft gun I bought. Both I and Mikhail Kalashnikov are the first to admit that the AR series is a great looking gun. Very interesting about the semiauto action for a pellet rifle but sad to hear about the misfeeds. It’s not really a semi-auto if it can’t feed properly. Still, that’s quite a technical challenge to feed pellets, way harder than firearm cartridges. My 7.62X54R rounds look like little ballistic missiles. I’m bound to say that on my last trip to the shooting range, there was rarely a moment when someone wasn’t fussing with their AR trying to fix a problem. It could be because there were so many ARs on the range, but I’m not sure…

    Okay, here’s my first client whom I’m trying to introduce to airguns. Young woman almost 30 of small stature. Military background and familiarity with firearms. Her aim is to practice for firearms in an economical way, and her shooting will be almost exclusively indoors. Her stated interest is in a pistol, but I think that is partly because she is just not aware of what air rifles are capable of. Money is a little tight. So what should I do?

    Patience, my friend, I say to myself so as not to send her an avalanche of equipment. I’m reminded of getting prematurely introduced to my Anschutz rifle in high school, and if there was ever anyone not worthy of the arms he bore, it was me. The rifles are easy enough. After exhaustive mental testing, the finalists are the Daisy 953 Target Pro, the Air Venturi Bronco, and the IZH 61. I was truly objective here. I was tempted to get the Daisy to see what I missed out on when I chose the IZH 61 for myself long ago. The Bronco represented shooting purity. In the end, the IZH 61 won out because of its cool military look, its exotic Russian heritage, and the fact that spring guns teach you to shoot all guns.

    I’ll get her a pistol too to balance her out. Now I find to my embarrassment that I don’t know a lot about this since pistols are more peripheral to my shooting. I was combing the PA site and the blog like a newcomer trying to get my bearings. PCPs are out because of their expense and because they are overkill at this stage. The variety of spring pistols is small, and never having shot one, I imagine they would be difficult. Why get a multi-pump pneumatic when you can get a single pump although the Crosman 1366 is mighty tempting. CO2 has a great range of products but the logistical train of CO2 cartridges. I think I’m going with the Makarov Legends pistol that B.B. just reviewed. It’s never too late to teach an old dog…as the saying goes. The low cost of bbs balances the cost of CO2. But the gun would not even qualify without being accurate which it apparently is. Also this will work for tactical shooting. The guiding statement on this is from some years ago when B.B. said that when “feeling frisky” he would cut loose with a bb pistol in his office. That’s the model. But for pure target shooting, I’m going back to the single-stroke pneumatics for another pistol. The one that seems to suit my purpose is the Beeman P-17, a gun that I contemplated long ago. But I have no direct experience with it. Any comments on all this? Is there a flaw in my logic or anything I’m forgetting?

    Today, I came home to find my long-awaited crate of 880 rounds of sniper grade surplus 7.62X54R ammo. Here I’m violating another rule that I never thought I would break (one of many in my shooting career) by purchasing corrosive ammo. At 25 cents per round, I couldn’t resist. And this should make for a lifetime’s supply of ammo for my Mosin. Naturally, I intend to protect my historical rifle with OCD type cleaning procedures. The best one I’ve found so far is running a patch dampened with a dilute solution of ammonia down the bore then flooding the bore and action with Ballistol. If anyone has some better method of cleaning corrosive ammo, do let me know.

    Then, there’s the matter of getting the darn crate open. I thought that the PA boxes were hard to open when they used the big metal staples (since discontinued), but the Russian packing is at another level. I believe the Russian obsession with toughness and durability has gone overboard this time. The goods are contained within two spam cans, just like U.S. military ammo. But the cans are inside of a wooden crate that has no opening. It looks to be made of planks that are screwed or bolted together, and the whole is wrapped with a metal band!

    And the whole thing weighs a ton. The printing stamped on the outside says 1,364 kg. That can’t be true but one could get that impression. It feels like well over 50 pounds. The drill instructor in me can imagine ordering hapless recruits to hump these cases around and have no discipline problems whatsoever. I’m also reminded of the fighting on Guadalcanal in the Pacific War where the Marines were lugging 40lb cases of grenades up to the front line. However, this Russian crate is not designed to be opened in a hurry, much less in the dark.

    Once I get through the metal band, I can see going to work with a flathead screwdriver on screws that are sunk below flush with the wood. I hope that works. If not, I guess it is a crowbar and a big one. But before all that one must get through the one inch wide flat metal band. A YouTube video showed someone cutting through the band with what looked like a large pair of shears. Perhaps I could chew my way through with the blades on my needle-nosed pliers, but I am not looking forward to that. (I can’t help but think of a memorable line from a novel where a guy is waylaid and gripped by the elbow, and he is “amazed at the strength merely suggested by the plier-like fingers.”) Anyway, this is one of those engineering problems of applying intellect against a brute force mass of material. Any suggestions on getting through the metal band?

    Matt61


    • Matt61
      The question is…. Did you do a un boxing video of your ammo? ;)

      And also what better airguns to teach the girl you have been talking about then the ones you have and know now. :)



    • Matt I’m a day late but can comment on the P17.
      You’re right, pistols are tricky. The quality pieces demand quality prices and taking a chance with “lesser” models is a shot in the dark. I’m a pistol guy at heart so I’ve tried a bunch of ‘em. I purchased a P17 from PA awhile back and loved it-great accuracy, a trigger you’d expect on guns costing LOTS more, and it had typical blade sights as opposed to the P3′s fiber optics. It lasted exactly 184 shots before the thinly-stamped sheet metal ‘sear’ (for lack of a better term-it was the piece that actuates the valve) broke in half.
      Of course I was disappointed but there are tons of reviews from others who’ve experienced no issues, so I think if you get a good one you’ve made the right choice. I like mine so well I ponied up the cash for the “real” thing and bought the P3.
      One thing to consider; My wife cannot cock the gun. I don’t have any trouble with it, but it does get tiring after a few dozen rounds.
      One last thing. Make sure your young woman keeps her fingers clear. The first time she snaps the thing shut and gets bitten may be her last time shooting airguns.


    • Matt,

      Most multi tools have wire cutters on their plier jaws. If there is room under the band, these can sometimes gnaw through a steel strap. But if you are stymied now, wait until you try to oppen the spam cans inside!

      Take a screwdriver blade and pound it under the strap, then use it to raise the strap high enough to got plier jaws on it. Then you can worry the steel back and forth and it will fatigue.

      Remember, Matt, Russian soldiers opened these cases by the thousands while they were in the field.

      B.B.


    • Matt,

      The P17is a good pistol, at least mine is… But, I don’t think I’d get it for a small lady. It’s really kind of hard to cock. I think she’d be better served with on of the many blowback, semi-auto CO2 pistols available. Maybe one that resembles whichever firearm she wants the practice for.

      Attached to one of your spam cans of ammo should be a can opener (painted the same green or whatever as the cans). If you’ve got the top of the crate open you should see it and be able to use it on the strap also. If you didn’t get the opener, a bayonet will work but be careful…

      /Dave


    • And here I thought that every male who ever did any DIY stuff, would own a pair of tin snips,, or more correctly, aviator snips. And in all of their types,, lefts, rights, straights, and notching. Any one of which would have made that peice of banding, a piece of cake to remove. Behonf that,, a hammer and a HEAVY screwdriver will take care of the box. Of course,, the box will be reduced to kindling,, but hey,, everybody needs kindling.

      You are on your own with the spam cans,, never liked the stuff.
      ed


      • I’ll rely on one of my many “multi-tool” collection — though the only one that gets regular wear is an old Leatherman Wave… I have another Leatherman model, a Victorinox, and a Gerber model. After that, the Tinker model Swiss Army knife.


    • Thanks to everyone for the usual wealth of information. I zeroed in on the P17 breaking after 184 shots. This is my nightmare scenario for cheap guns. It will be very disappointing and would serve to reinforce preconceptions about airguns being cheap junk. But then I looked at the P3 and came reeling back. That price is way out of the ballpark. One is tempted to drop this second gun and just go with the Makarov. But I want to introduce her to the kind of marksmanship you can get with airguns.

      That cocking stiffness is another concern. My friend is small, about 5’2″. She is tough. She is my martial arts student from way back. But I don’t think she has reached the level of channeling force from different parts of her body to concentrate it into the cocking effort. I think we’ll go with the cheap price and hope for the best. And I’ll pay for the 10 for 10 deal to check it first. Thanks too for the tip about getting your fingers pinched. This won’t deter her. She drove all the way from London to Mongolia in a cross-country rally. She’s a wild one. Anyway, it looks like the gun options are pretty much it for my purpose. There is no getting around the economic law that you get what you pay for. As a matter of fact, I was kind of shocked looking at the prices. When things were in doubt before Derrick fixed my 747, I was casting covetous eyes at the IZH 46M. Man! That’s almost $600. I seem to remember it around $400 when I was shopping for my 747 years ago.

      But there is one respect in which I am not cheap and that has to do with the presentation. The question is whether I ship the goods in a steady stream or drop them on her all at once. I’m going with the second option! It will be like Keanu Reeves in the Matrix asking for guns and getting a whole warehouse. When the goods arrive, my friend will be transported to airgun heaven, and I think it will make a powerful statement for the sport.

      Now for the box of Russian ammo. Edlee, you may still be right that every other male who tinkers has tin snips, everyone besides me. I’ve never heard of this tool before. I only got into mechanical things because of guns, and I still can’t believe I’m doing this. Among the options, I like B.B.’s suggestion best of worrying and fatiguing the metal. Metal fatigue has worked against me numbers of times with things wearing out and breaking, and I like the idea of having it work for me. We’ll keep the dedicated tool as a back-up option if the fatigue idea doesn’t work. I had thought of the third option of just being very destructive. But I worry about the effects on the ammo, even though it is protected with spam cans. Looking past the metal band, I’m having more reservations about what look like screws buried into the wood. The heads have slots for a screwdriver, but looking at the construction, it doesn’t appear that they are threaded into the wood. If not, then I would be up the creek. I guess I could work the heads up above the surface and then pry them out with the hook end of a hammer. One thing at a time.

      To answer the question, no, I have not made an unboxing video. All I would have to show so far is hauling the crate up the stairs which took some doing. It is easily twice the weight of my 35 pound kettlebell, so it must be pushing 100 pounds. As I carried it, the length of wood that I was using as a handle started cracking from the weight.

      Once I penetrate in to the spam cans, there should be a dedicated opener waiting for me according to unboxing videos that I have watched. If not, the only bayonet I have is the pigsticker spike style for my Enfield which will not do the job. The next option is a heavy throwing knife. I could pound on the handle with a hammer….

      That’s right, B.B., rub it in about the Russian soldiers doing this with ease. :-) I keep hearing about how Russian equipment is designed to be foolproof for peasants and between this and my Mosin the score is something like the Russian peasants way ahead and me zip. You can even do a bit of fun archeology on your Russian peasant soldier based on the equipment that you see. The AKs that I hear about and my IZH tend to support the YouTube observation that “them Russians must have mighty short arms.” Interestingly this does not apply to my Mosin which has the longest length of pull of any of my surplus rifles and is perfectly comfortable. Based on that Mosin safety, the Russians must have the hand and finger strength of gorillas. And between managing their multi-piece Mosin bolt and the rest of that machinery and their vault-like ammo crates, they must have mechanical genius. Practical geniuses with short gorilla arms… :-)

      Matt61


      • Try fixing your P17. It’s a cheap gun so breaking the thing won’t be worst than the shape it’s in right now right?
        They’re apparently quite easy to fix, it’s usually a just a deburring and o-ring changing job.

        I bought two, the first one broke after about 10 shots, the seal let go on the closing stroke and it closed abrutly and the thing broke, I went to echange it and the other one is still going strong.

        It’s like a 2240 everyone should own one.

        J-F


      • J-F, you’ve changed the game here. I had thought of the Crosman 2240 and dismissed it because it relies on CO2, and I wanted to standardize the ammo at .177. Now after hearing about the little problems with the P17, the 2240 looks better. Everyone raves about it including Derrick, technical wizard.

        Still, what gets me is the the CO2 reliance. It will be easy to find ways to avoid buying CO2 powerlets. I do that myself even with my enthusiasm for airgunning. So, my gaze shifts again to the Crosman 1377. I had dismissed this before because of the multi-pump action. But now it seems more attractive than the 2240. There are rave reviews although I can’t seem to find a blog on it. Maybe it is too classic to need a review? Anyone have experiences they care to share? Much could depend on this; thousands of rounds going off into the future. My friend is completely unaware as the gods talk this through.

        Matt61


        • The 2240 is a money pit. You can easily spend Marauder buying money on modding your 2240. The worst thing is you’ll be happy to be spending all that money.

          I can’t help you with the 1377, I don’t like it. I don’t like multi-pump guns to start with and the pumping handle on that one is too small for my taste. You’re talking about the thousands of shots you’ll shoot with this gun? Think about the tens of thousands of pump you’ll do.

          J-F



      • Matt61
        We use tin snips at work all the time cutting the bands off of our material we get for machining. They work great.

        And there is all kinds of things you can do to the 2240′s. I have one with a Discovery breech and barrel on it. And also the same on a 1377 And a few more with the Crosman steel breech and other barrels.

        If your going to put some type of scope or even a precision open site on it you will need to put the steel breech on it. The 1377 and the 2240 both come with a plastic breech with a brass bolt and (no) dovetail to mount scopes or sites. If you end up deciding to get one I have some part numbers wrote down to change them around with the Crosman factory parts. And PA does sell the steel breeches but not any barrels. And they also sell the 1399 stock for the guns. You have to get the right part numbers from the Crosman site for the barrels.

        But let me know if you do get a 1377 or 2240. I know there is places that sell triggers and other mods for the guns also if you feel like getting that deep into modding them.


  21. HiveSeeker,
    I kept looking but never heard mention of blowback action so I assume it doesn’t. Does it feel like there’s any feedback on firing?


    • Reb, no blowback action (hence no mention) but the bolt is re-cocked every shot by the CO2. This is not noticeable as recoil, but it is there and my scope mounts didn’t like it. Despite the low felt recoil, they loosened up on me, and as I mentioned I’m one of those that tends to over-tighten such stuff.


  22. Hey TT
    Just thought I would let you know something.

    You know when we were talking a little while back about your 500 and my buddy’s .22 cal. Marauder with the grouping problems.

    Well here is something I want to remind you about.

    You rember those little nonsense rules that you dont like or me either. Like firing certain pcp guns to bump the valve after the gun sets for a while so on.

    And you said you have some spring guns that you could pull out load and shoot without doing any nonsense type of things. And they would out shoot other guns you have.

    Well that comment ended up getting stored in my little brain right next to the memories of wanting one of those German airguns when I was a kid.

    Well you inspired me to get my first Weihrauch air rifle.

    Just thought I would let you know that.



    • GF1

      After reading some more I found out what you are up to. I don’t have a 50, but I hear that the cocking effort is high for the power level.
      You could have a droop problem too (probably). And some spring noise. No idea what pellet it will like….don’t have that model.

      twotalon


      • TT
        I hadn’t thought about the droop problem. The 54 air king did. Mine anyway.

        But what was the break barrel guns you said you have?



          • TT
            The gun that has barrel droop that you have. Was it enough to use a drooper scope mount. Or did you manage to get by without one?


            • GF1

              The .22 R9 might have been OK, but the R7s were severe. No way without drooper mounts for them. So I fixed the problem without the mounts.

              twotalon


          • TT
            Well if it requires removing metal the only two places would be the transfer port side in the reciever if I should call it the reciever. Or the barrel side where it meets the transfer port hole in the reciever.

            Dont worry you can tell me. I wont be scared. ;)


            • GF1

              I said it was not what you would expect. Your guess is dead wrong. The receiver faces do NOT touch on an HW .

              twotalon


              • TT
                Never owned one so all I can do is guess.

                And really Im not wanting to start messing with metal on the new gun. I heard of barrel bending. And I dont think I would want to go there.

                And was your gun that bad? I could of got away with turning my scope adjustment up towards the top of its adjustmmennt on the 54 air king.
                And now I might be scared what you did.


                • GF1

                  There is a geometry problem with the R7 with it’s articulated cocking link that makes it much worse than an R9 with its single cocking link. Things get very complicated. Don’t know about the 50, but I think it has an articulated link too. Probably better to just get a drooper mount if you want a scope .

                  twotalon


              • TT
                Thanks for the truth. Im not going to even touch the gun.

                If all I have to do is put a drooper mount on the gun I will be happy.

                But I have to ask this now. Does the barrel lock up consistently?


                • GF1

                  Yes, they lock consistently as long as you adjust the pivot bolt right. You have to be very careful if you do it my way or you risk going too far and not getting a good lockup. You would end up needing a new barrel . The block and barrel come as one unit.
                  Out of the box they lockup good too.

                  twotalon


                • GF1

                  An analogy for you….
                  You have a clock that you want to have the minute hand stop dead at 3 o’clock on. You bend the outside of the clock so that the minute hand will get wedged at the three o’clock position and stop. Sloppy setup that is unpredictable at best. This is the typical break barrel.

                  The HW way..
                  You drill a hole at the 3 o’clock position and stick a bolt through it. The minute hand comes around freely until it hits the bolt and stops dead.

                  twotalon



                    • GF1

                      No, but it does make for some consistent barrel lockup . The breech does not have a wedging fit during lockup. It stops dead.

                      twotalon


                    • GF1

                      See the black smudgy mark on the ledge between the chisel and the breech face (R9) ? That swings around to come into direct and solid contact with the mating structure under the rear breech face. Direct and solid contact.
                      http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z244/twotalon/004-1.jpg
                      The R7 works the same way, except it uses a cross pin to mate with , and a ball lock instead of a wedge.

                      twotalon


                  • TT
                    I checked out the picture and I understand what you mean. But one more thing. The articulated link is what I’m curious about. I don’t want to worry about fixing the barrel droop. I will use a mount or something if I need to deal with droop. But I want to know what that link does. Does it have a slot in it and a pin rides in it. And does it travel at a angle to move the barrel up or down. If I’m explaining right.

                    I remember seeing a blow up schematic of the gun before but it was a long while back and I may be remembering wrong.


                    • GF1

                      The articulated link (NOT R9 which has single link) has two parts. It is used to shorten the length of the cocking slot in the stock. We are talking about a short stock here. It has a short front piece hooked to the block for the barrel, and a longer piece that runs along under the compression tube. The short piece is supposed to push the longer piece straight back to reduce the length of the slot in the stock. There is a retaining pin in the stock screw mounting bracket. This keeps the long link from folding out and getting into the stock on the R7.
                      Again, I don’t know about the HW50. I think it is also articulated.

                      One other thing….
                      If you get tired of the buzz (not with the R7) and the gradual loss of velocity , Get a Vortek kit including the seal, clean out the old grease, and be happy. Between the HW piston seal design and the grease (unless the changed their ways), the seal seems to start dragging and killing the velocity.

                      If you want to start a new thread, go ahead. I will be watching.

                      twotalon




  23. To open the crate- use your bayonet for the metal band. Hack,bend or twist as necessary. Once that is off, raise the crate above your head and throw it rapidly downward so that it strikes the ground on one of the corners. Repeat as necessary to break crate. Add some violent kicks and/or stomps to complete crate removal. Separate spam cans from wood debris. Begin the search for can opener key that disappeared during previous throwing/kicking/stomping process. Or, perhaps the key was never packed in the first place. If key is found, use it to open cans. Remember, stay hydrated. If key is not found, revert to use of bayonet. Remember, stay hydrated.


  24. Edith and BB I have to make a sugestion.

    When you do a guest blog for the day or do a individual product can you send that person a email notification so they know your doing their write up.

    Not every blog you do every day.

    I have let Dave and Loyd know in the past that you were talking about their products and they didnt even know.

    Its nice to have a person chime in about thier product you know.

    Some people dont get to get on the blog everyday and they dont have phone email notifications. So they dont even know when your doing thier write ups. Or reviewing their product.
    Just thought I would throw that out there at you.



  25. Hello all,Steve here.Need to put a question out here.I’m just wondering does anyone for sure know if a pellet has left the barrel on a PCP with a 24″ say moving around 900 FPS? as the recoil is happening or after recoil? I don’t have a crony this speed is just guessing.Its 25 cal.and has a good bit of recoil if ya don’t hold it down just a little.I know on a springer it is still in the barrel I believe just wondering about my PCP? because the gun recoil will move my rifle rest if I don’t set it on a rubber mat but if ya just apply a little pressure on the forearm that holds it study and the groups will tighten up.So I think I know the answer I just want to here it from you all.Thanks



      • Reb,Hello. The gun would be a TalonP with the 24” barrel’ tank psi. is 1900 and the power level would be set at 6.shooting 31 grn. H-Rs. As I said don’t know the speed but it is flat moving on for 31 grns. You may have read here that I posted that it will shot a 1” no problem at 150” but ya really have to hold it down to stop the recoil and it will shoot flyer’s if ya don’t and that’s why I’m thinking the pellet has not left the barrel completely after recoil.This is not a complaint on my part just something ya gotta remember when removing a squirrels head at 60+ feet.I just want to hear from ya to see if you know for sure if this would be correct about the recoil? Knowing this answer for sure would give me more confidence when pulling the trigger out in the Field.With slight bit of inconfidence and I will tend to jerk the trigger instead of a study easy pull like it should be.Sounds silly I know,but I have to be 100% on top of the trigger pull or I will miss.



          • Hey Gunfun
            Just got done the rebuild on the two B3s I got for 20 bucks. The B3-1 got a new breach seal and soaked the leather seal in oil for about a week, cleaned it up real good and made the new spring seat/guides, got everything lubed and assembled yesterday and did some chrony testing with it and my FDAR. The B3-1 impressed me with consistent 570/580 fps for the 15 shots of 177 CPs I fired thru it, I think it will get better as it is get loosened up and some of the grease and oils get burn off cause it is still smoking some. I think I remember in BBs review of these guns they were good for about 480/500 fps range so if my B3-1 gets a little better with use it may get to the low 600s, that would be nice as I did sleeve down the sliding breech port with a piece of brass tubing swaged in to the breech to give a little more resistance against the piston as BB suggested.

            My FDAR is right where I want it with 14.3 gr CPs, I got 20 shots between 840 to 880 fps starting at 2000 psi and throwing out the first 4 shots because they were not on the curve at below 800 fps. I think I will find when I get my fill fitting with the gauge in it that my optimum fill pressure is going to be 1800 psi down to 1000 psi for the 20 shot string. I am happy with the numbers right now. Hope yours performs as well when you get the 22 barrel on it with the disco valve, you may even get a little better than mine with that disco valve. I know you are not going for max fps as much as for maximum shot count.

            Got my B3-2 together today and shot it a few times, no chrony numbers yet, but it seems to be hitting my target back stop harder than the B3-1, hope it is already in the low 600 fps because it got a new spring as well as breech and piston seals ( it is a nylon seal on the piston in it). It had that ugly orange color stock the Chinese finished them in so I sanded it down to rough it up and painted it with truck bed liner spray on coating and it looks way way better almost like a synthetic stock. Hope to get some chrony numbers tomorrow.

            Have you got a chance to shoot your FDAR gun yet, I saw where you bought a HW50 and are eagerly awaiting it to arrive. Sound like you have the same problem I have, never enough guns and never can decide on which one to shoot. Talk to later, Have a good Fathers Day
            Buldawg


            • buldawg
              Sounds like you have been buisy to.

              I ran into a little snag with the Disco valve and I saw it before.It is just a little bit longer. I had to un screw the air resivoir a few threads for the valve to set back and not bump up against it. Well of course the air resivor tube was leaking where it screws into the reciever after that. So I got to take the tube out and putit back together with some thread sealer.
              And I like the idea of the brass sleeve to reduce the diameter of the transfer port.

              But we are BBQing today because they say rain for Sunday so I wont be able to do anything with working on guns till tomorrow.

              So I will let you know what happens tomorrow. And you have a good fathers day too.


              • buldawg
                No good luck. Shot the FLDAG some this morning and the Disco valve started leaking the air out of the barrel after about 3 fills. And I was only filling to 1500 psi.

                Its making me think there is something going on with the striker in my gun. I’m starting maybe to think that the striker could be shifting or cocking side to side as its moving forward to hit the valve stem or rod if you want to call it that. And its actually hitting off center and that’s why the valve stem is getting pushed around even with the bigger diameter stem that the Disco valve uses. I have to look into it more to see. But it for sure has to come back apart and I got to open the valve up and see what it did to the tophat and the seat. It should show if its getting pushed around wrong. And I should be able to see if that stem extension I put on has wear on the flat surface that the striker hits. If its not flat anymore then I think the problem may be the striker not hitting the valve stem square.

                Well more work to do. But it did good with the .22 cal. FLDAG barrel what little bit I got to shoot it before it decided to mess up again. Maybe that spacer you made for yours is whats saving your gun. I think that will have to happen next for mine before it goes back together again.

                Oh and one more thing. That 2240 that I got with the steel breech and that .177 cal. FLDAG barrel that I turned down to fit the steel breech is working out fantastic. I new that was a good barrel when it was on the FLDAG. It is a tack driver like I don’t know what. And it still loves the JSB 10.3 grn. pellets.


                • Gunfun
                  Hey, just got my new Hp all in one PC up and running, way happy , just hope this hard drive don’t crash. I am about two days behind on catching up on replies to messages in this blog, my fathers day was good cause wally world finally got the HP computer in stock. Yea I hate to hear that about the FDAR guns valve still leaking. I am curious to see if the addition to the disco stem held up or has mushroomed over from the striker blow also or if the valve is cocking in the valve body. I know the original FDAR valve stem was a looser fit than I would like in my valve and that is why I made a top hat style spring seat for the spring to sit against at the front of the valve body, to help keep the valve more centered in the body. I would think the disco valve would have tighter tolerances than the FDAR
                  valve assy. Mine has started to leak slightly after I refill from shooting a few more times but all I do is cock it and shoot it with pellet in it and it stops leaking and shoots fine the rest of the time. you need to look closely at the whole valve assy and striker for loose fits or binding which could cause the valve to be either held open or cocked slightly. Glad to hear that you 2240 with the FDAR barrel is doing good.

                  I understand on your HW 50 that you don’t want to tear a new gun apart when it don/t need it. Building a spring gun is not that difficult, just take your time and lay all the parts out in order so you can put it back together easier. You can make a spring compressor with a medium size c clamp with the end cut off to give you just the threaded part and bolt it to a 2X6 spaced up off to board to line up with the receiver of the gun laying on the wood and secure another piece of wood with a slot in it to place the barrel or front of receiver in to keep it in place securely and compress the spring to take it apart, that’s what I am in the process of building now to build the FWB 124 for my friend with the machine shop. Let me know how things progress with your 60C and what you find, cause my PC is back and running ( fingers crossed)
                  Buldawg


          • Gunfun1,How are you?Yes but its just minor stuff and I needed some info from you guys that are a heck of a lot more tech then I.So I guess you would have to really hold to a 40Thur50 cal. I guess the weight of the gun would be a factor to.The talonP is very light in weigh.It took me a long while to get past the kicks of 12 gauge slugs and 30.06 etc.So when I got into the airgun world I had to remember these things don’t kick like a mule so hold firm and pull easy and not to worry about the Mike Tyson punch from a 12 gauge slug.That hurts!!! past three shot sighting one in.I just don’t shot them one ounce slugs anymore. If it ain’t no fun I ain’t doing it anymore!All my deer are head shot with a very small cal.No need for those monster bullets on my behalf these days.Plus no meat is destroyed and Field dressing is not messy.Been fishing lately? Fried up 3 1\2 skillets of blue gill last Friday.It don’t get much better then that.Gotta go take the dog for his evening swim before he come in here and reminds me.Later.


            • steve how is it going. And you aint fool’n me if your shoot’n airguns to get supper. You got a pretty good handle on these guns Im thinking. ;)

              But your talking about the kick. Usually the pcp guns are pretty easy shooting guns. Actually kind of relaxing to shoot.

              But my .25 cal. Mrod is modded and turned up pretty good. It definatly has a kick to it but not as strong as a high power nitro piston gun. Yes I have to pay attension to it more than my other Mrods. So I would say the pellet is still in the barrel before the gun stops moving. Thats what I think anyway.

              And I did get some bluegil a little while back. Big red ear. About 20 I think it was. Now that you mention it I think I will fry them up tomorrow since we are doing the BBQ thing today.

              And have fun with your dog. But the question is does he wear you out or do you wear him out. :)


              • Gunfun1,I don’t have the slightest clue what your talking about on that first paragraph? ‘ha ha’ Next I would really like to get the 25 cal.Mrod someday because I know what a Mrod will do.they are not to fussy about nothing.There is nothing much to thing about when ya pull the trigger.I can tell ya for a fact the talonP is fussy when it comes to shooting up into trees. It shots much higher then the Mrod.What I’m saying is with the Mrod 22 cal. I do not have to hold under the head to hit it. The talonP you have to do a little guess work.Most will not agree that the scope height on the talon has play here but at nearly 3” above the center of the barrel I believe it does. I’ve probably open up a can of worms here but nothing anybody says can change my mind so please everybody don’t beat me up tonight over this.I believe the scope on the Mrod is about 11\2 above the bore line and I again do not have to hold under to hit my target shooting up in a tree. The talonP does wonderful as long as you shot it level or close to level.The green laser which is 11\2” above the bore show me as I’m looking threw the scope on the talon that there is a difference between 3”and 11\2.So the green laser would always be less holdover or under because its closer to the center of the barrel.If I could put a pistol down there were the laser is and I could see threw it I bet I wouldn’t have to think about these shots shooting upwards.I did think about getting a pistol scope with the long eye relieve just to see if I’m correct but Most of um don’t come in 12 power so I wont fool with it.Anyway didn’t mean to go on so much about this.It won’t ruin my life cause I got a good wife a good and seven good cats “fixed”.PS and a good fishing hole!


                • steve
                  The truth is the truth. My Talon SS did the same thing.

                  I even tried zeroing the scope different and lower power on the scope. Same thing with the Talon SS.

                  I found you have to do a little more work and documenting than normal with that higher scope position if you want to hit at angles instead of all your shots being level.

                  I think thats one of the things that make the Mrods shine.The lower scope mounting.

                  And there aint noth’n like a good fish’n hole. :)


                  • Gunfun1,Thanks.And my neighbor”two miles away as the crow flys” bought him the 25 cal.Mrod two years ago after shooting mine he had to have one.Well guess what,he never shots it.Says the pump hurts his back.So I’m like a buzzard just waiting for him to finely sell it to me one day.I told him let me be the first to know if ever he wants to rid himself of it.And speaking of pumps I got my Hill in last month and I love it.I built a 12×14 plywood floor stand to sandwich it between the very little foot stand these things have.I promise you the effort is at least 25% easy er because you don’t have to position your body directly above it.This means ya don’t have to bend your knees when the pumping gets tough because ya now have your feet more behind the pump and ya now can just lean over more to push your body weight down onto it.You would not think a simple foot plate would make such a difference and it was not planed out this way.I just wanted more foot area to stand on and it turned out to be a real bonus round for me.


                    • steve so you like your Hill pump. And I bet that does help make it easier to pump with that extra wood you added.

                      And my hand pumps are for emergency’s only. Sorry but I haven’t pumped for a long time.


                    • If you’re handy you can make a lever (it’s a lever so the longer the better) fix one end on a wall, the middle part on the pump handle and the pump foot fixed on the floor and tada, you can now pump it with a single hand.

                      J-F


        • I would have to say that not only is the pellet still moving and producing recoil all the way til it exits the muzzle, but also the hammer is going to bounce to an extent, depending on hammer spring tension and travel settings. Other than that all I can think of may be a little tank flex due to it’s new pressure. Sounds a little hold-sensitive for a PCP,follow-through all the way til the target is hit would be crucial to accuracy!

          Reb


          • Reb ,thanks for the reply. I thought this to be true.Yes as long as I hold threw the shot I can drill holes in holes.But let it set without a little ‘holding it place’ and ya will get some fliers.I hunt only with shooting sticks and don’t have much issue with this but punching paper without holding the reins and it bucks some.Footnote,there is no issue with the marauder 22 cal. It hardly ever Misses,but I do now and then.The Mrod has at times head shot squirrels at 220”.I try to keep all shots under 80” for humane reasons.


        • Add to that the usual result of a jerked trigger by a right hand shooter is a high-right POI. even without recoil. Plenty to miss a squirrel at the distance you stated.

          If you figure that each action has an equal and opposite reaction,, ( heard that somewhere),, then you would need to believe that the recoil ( opposite reaction) starts as soon as the projectile starts moving. When you start feeling it is a different question.
          Ed


          • Ignoring the striker, I wouldn’t expect much…

            For a CO2, S/M-SP, or PCP… You are looking at, say, a 10gr pellet working against (7000gr*3lbs pistol/6+lbs rifle) 21000 – 42000+… Expect the recoil to be 1/2100 to 1/4200 of whatever the barrel length is… For a 10″ (target pistol) barrel, that would give 0.00047″ of recoil.

            For a spring gun, the recoil is from the spring, not the pellet — while the piston is moving forward, you have ITS recoil pushing back (and then the sudden lunge forward when the piston hits the end of the stroke, and damages scopes that are braced only to handle the rearward push of a firearm).

            Strikers cause other conditions… For the AirForce guns, it is like a spring gun in reverse — the striker moves backwards while the gun moves forward. Rotary strikers (pistols with real hammers bouncing off the valve) would have a counter rotation recoil — along with whatever direction the spring is moving. A forward moving striker probably has a recoil moment similar to a spring gun, but smaller.



    • Reb
      That’s not a Crosman Silhouette , it is a 2240 instead. I appears to still have the plastic breech that they have modified with dove tail s for the scope or just clamped the scope mounts on and let them dig into the plastic. It is CO2 powered, the silhouette’s were PCP guns. It is nice that it has a 22 barrel to go with it and the 1399 stock, but at 129 bucks it seems a little high in the price range. A new 2240 from pyramid is only 60 bucks, another 20 for the stock from ebay, 30 for a 22 barrel and maybe 25 for the scope and it all being used. I might give that much for it if it had a steel breech and 18 inch barrel. I have a 2289 backpacker with steel breech, 18 inch 22 barrel and 1399 stock that has been modded to shot in the mid 800 fps. If it was a silhouette for the 129 that would be a real deal for sure. Didn’t mean to burst your bubble cause I thought you had found me a sweet deal. I would have jumped on it for sure , but not a 2240 cause I am not into CO2 as it is just another cost to shoot, I prefer pumpers or PCPs. But thanks for looking out for us on the blog.
      Buldawg


      • Buldawg,
        Good eye! I just went back to check for the plastic breech and it looks like you’re right! That’s a lotta work in attempt at deception.I almost joined the busload of people running this guy outta town.It looked too good to be true and I was reluctant to post a link(not sure it’s not a no-no) but I figured if it’s outta my reach then I’d rather one of my friends get a chance at it.I had no idea we would buts a cheater.

        Reb


        • Reb
          Yea I wasn’t trying to call you out or offend you at all by letting you know it wasn’t a silhouette, cause if it was a silhouette I would have jumped on it for sure and given you a big thank you and a atta boy for letting us all know about it. I know about the meds making you loopy because I am on pain meds for my arthritis and some times I get very forgetful and feel like I’m in outer space. Did you ever get the culprit that ran off with your targets and pellets. I know what it like to hunt for pellets in the yard also as my G-kid accidentally dropped a full tin of CPs in the yard about a month ago. When your on fixed incomes like us you can’t afford to just forget about them. Keep looking for deals as I do myself every day and maybe we will get lucky. There is a new Daisy 953 on gun broker right now for 79.99 with 20 bucks shipping that ends in 5 hours, that’s about 30 bucks below list. its from Dennis Baker air guns so you know its for real.
          Buldawg


          • I really like seeing those used 953′s for sale. the main problem is you almost never get a good rear sight with them. The real goodies are all the little things like the trigger work that’s most likely been done by avid coaches & fathers of aspiring marksmen/ women. The proper sights are so expensive that a scope tends to be a viable option but with such little power on tap their range is still limited to about 40-50 yards. Mine’s a one- holer @10m & waiting for a BugBuster!

            Reb



            • Reb
              Yea they don’t come with the peep sights on the like the 853s and 887s do but they are 99 bucks at pyramid air so 79 bucks is a good deal for a new one. The peep sight are another 50 bucks, but it does not include the barrel weight. they are probably available from Daisy as I have gotten a reseal kit and new barrel/valve assy from them recently. The 753/853/953 are only designed to be a 10 meter target rifle they were never intended to be hunting guns. My 853 will put pellet on top of pellet at 10 meters, but is not accurate at much over that range or have any real power left past that far. I have five sets of peep sights on all my pellet guns except my 22 PCP gun and they are excellent for 10 meter shooting which is about what my backyard range is at just slightly more at 12 meters.

              Buldawg



      • You’re right,after I went back and gave it a good once more over I remember seeing this pistol, with that flip open breech design. In no way was I thinking in my right mind! I don’t know if that mighta been my meds gettin’ me a little loopy or what.
        I Can tell you that happened during the break from setting my 760 and H&N sample pack up for testing, after I got done on the computer I went to use the restroom before going back outside. Through the bathroom window I see my targets blowing across the back yard. When I go out to investigate, there are paw prints on my shooting bench! My notebook is on the ground and the sample pack packaging about 20 feet away,in the middle of the yard. The next hour and half or so was spent methodically combing through the grass slowly salvaging what’s left of my $25 or so investment. Maybe that would help explain my irrational behavior.

        Reb



  26. BB, The blogs have many examples of loose barrels in this rifle a (mp4), but none in the Daisy- Win. M14. How can you explain this, since they use the same basic machinery ? Jon, longevity should be the same, since the parts that move and are subject to wear and tear are the same. Unless the rifles are abused , the plastic parts in the M14 should not be a problem. Ed



      • I’ll (smartly) side with Sr. Pelletier and make the same claims. However, although a number of folks have suggested that the MP4 is a dressed up Winchester M14 I’m suspecting that an exploded parts diagram might tell a different story. I think some of the ammo feed problem may be with the CO2 clip which is definitely different between the two guns. I suspect the barrel assemblies are different as well but that is just a suspicion.



    • GF1

      Vortek sells them. Consists of a spring and three guides . Some kits include the piston seal.
      There is a foreword guide , basically a tophat, and the rear guides are one inner and one outer guide. Lube is included and installation instructions .
      If that don’t kill the buzz, then nothing will.
      Initially velocity will be just about the same or a bit more than the original parts. It gradually speeds up quite a bit most likely because the rear guides stretch out and loosen up some.
      I did not see any difference in pellet choice from before and after. I did 5 rifles with them.

      I don’t mind just a bit of hum , but a massive dose of vibration that wrecks my nerves , destroys scopes, and constantly loosens screws does not get it.

      By the way, my wife bought a ’12 Captiva yesterday and loves it. Going to sell the Chrysler.
      And my Camaro got recalled …….for the ignition key. They are supposed to fix me up with keys and remotes that are separate parts. Supposedly you can bump the remote part and turn the ignition off while driving. I tried every way I could think of and could not bump it in any way that would turn it.

      twotalon


      • TT
        I checked out the Captiva. Looks like a nice little ride. What color is it?

        And I heard there was a recall on the Camaro’s but I didn’t know what it was for. And the way my luck goes I could do the same thing and try every kind of may to make it happen and wouldn’t be able to make it shut off. But as soon I was late for work or something I would hit a bump or something and shut the thing off and it would never start again. But at least they are fixing it though I guess.



        • GF1

          Also , it has a mode (ECO) for economy . Locks the torque converter at lower rpm, will not shift the transmission as fast, and makes the gas pedal less responsive. Don’t think either of us will use that mode. Sounds like D…O…G… .

          twotalon


          • TT
            I’m thinking they could of saved some time and money and left that economy mode out of the equation. And I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t use it either. And I bet that color is nice outside when the sun is shining.


      • Twotalon
        I was a GM master tech for 30 years and I believe the recall for the ignition switches is mostly a result of people that have key rings with an excessive amount of keys or objects that when the key is inserted in the switch the added weight of the keys/heavy objects over time wears the detents in the switch out to the point that they can no longer maintain enough tension on the switch to keep it in the run position and allows the switch to rotate to the accessory or off position while driving causing the engine to quit and create the risk for a fatal accident to occur. GM changed their ignition switches from the old tried and true design that had the two wings in them that allowed you to turn the switch with those wings instead of the key itself to the newer design about 11 or 12 years ago that uses only the key to rotate the switch with and in that change the mechanical detents as well as all the other components were lightened and made out of plastic in order to reduce cost and thereby sacrificing durability and longevity in the process, hence the failure of ignition switches to remain in the run position over bumps or rough roads. You are not able to recreate the issue because you cannot simulate all the forces needed for failure to occur at the same time.
        If it ain’t broke don’t fix it means more than most people think, we live in a time now where the cheaper you can make the more profit you can make is the motto of most motor vehicle companies.

        Buldawg



      • TT and thanks for the website. I saved it in my favorites.

        And since you did 5 of them. Do the guns have the relaxed spring design like the TX 200 mrk III’s or is there pressure on the springs.

        Do you ever work on spring guns for people? There may be a point in time that I would like to do something with the 50. But I definitely want to shoot it in its factory condition for a while.

        And also if the gun does start slowing up with the factory parts like you said. Is it to late to add the vortek kit or will it bring the gun back to life? I think I will order one of those kits just to make sure I have one for the future if something comes up.


        • GF1

          You need a compressor to install them . I got tired of the vibration and other associated problems . I did one of my R7s too. got tired of needing to oil it to keep the velocity up. Have a kit for the other R7 that I have not installed yet. Neither one buzzed at all but the velocity thing was a pain. The factory grease just keeps getting thicker and stickier.

          I don’t do guns for other people.

          twotalon


          • TT
            The blog was down last night so couldn’t reply. But figured I would ask if you did repairs for people. Some people do and some don’t so thanks.

            I don’t plan on doing anything to the gun for a long time so will see what happens.


            • GF1

              Yeah, make sure of what you have before you start spending money and time working on it.
              It may be just fine the way it comes out of the box.

              twotalon


              • TT
                That’s what I’m hoping for that it will be fine the way it comes. I haven’t had one of the good German break barrels yet so I don’t know what to expect.

                It may shoot like the greatest gun in the world to me. Or it may just have way to much buzz. I will have to see. But I like my 54 air king that’s for sure. And that gun is untouched witch should say something about the 54. As you know how much I like to mess with stuff and change it around.

                But I think I will buy that vortek kit just to have later on down the line. My luck when I want to get the kit they wont sell it anymore.


        • Gunfun
          If you get the vortek kit and don’t want to do the work yourself I have built several spring guns. I ‘ve done a RWS 54 which is very heavily sprung gun, done my two B3s not very much of a spring and am currently building a FWB 124 for the friend that let me use his mill and lathe to make the two spring guides for the B3s and machine my AR 80% lower to complete my AR 15 project. I am making a spring compressor for the FWB as the RWS I did was a real bear without a compressor. Just let me know lf and when you want it done.
          Buldawg


          • buldawg
            The blog was down last night so I couldn’t reply. But I did leave you a message a little ways up about the FLDAG and what happened. And also about that 2240 that I turned down the FLDAG barrel to fit the 2240.

            And like I said to TT. I don’t plan on having to do anything to the 50 for a long while. But if I do I think I will try to do it myself when the time comes. So I will post a reply and ask for guidance from everybody that’s for sure. Of course unless I chicken out. Then I will give you a holler. :)


            • Gunfun
              I just remembered that you used brake/fuel line to extend the stem on the disco valve and I bet you find that it has started to mushroom over as neither one of them is a very hard metal and most likely will not hold up well to being hit by the striker for long. You will probably need to make one at work out of some hardened metal to survive being beat up by the striker.
              Buldawg


              • buldawg
                i did take it apart and the striker is the problem the way it slides forward. There is wear marks on the front left and back right of the side of the striker. So that means it is hitting the valve stem at a angle.

                The valve stem wasnt mushroomed yet but I could see that it was starting to wear on one side of the face of the stem.
                Got to look into the striker next. And I will make a spacer the next time around. Going to leave it sit for awhile and come back to it later.

                And I will see if I need to do a spring compresser. But not yet. Even if the 50 buzz’s I will still leave it alone. If fps is changing then I will do somthing to the gun. Will see it is supposed to be here tomorrow.


                • Gunfun
                  That’s interesting, I did not think the striker could be that loose of a fit that it would hit the stem off center by that much. That would definitely cause a problem, I know when I first got mine I took it apart and cleaned all the oils and grease off of all the parts and greased the striker after smoothing all the trigger and sear contact points to a mirror finish to improve the trigger feel. I used good old wheel bearing grease on the striker, bolt and striker spring area inside striker. it being new I did not see nor was I looking for wear on the sides of the receiver and striker. Are you talking about the shim I put in between the rear of the valve assy and the striker block that sits behind the valve or the top hat I made for the valve spring to sit on in the front half of valve body.

                  Yea I have done the three spring guns without a compressor and the RWS took all my 220 pounds on top of my gloved hand to get compressed to put the retaining pin in place. I don’t want to have to do it that way again so I am making me a compressor to do the FWB 124 with, it will be much easier that way.

                  hoped your HW 50 shoots god and doesn’t buzz to much, it shouldn’t being brand new. Let me know how everything works out.
                  Buldawg


              • buldawg
                The striker wasnt lubed any kind of way when I took it apart when the air valve originaly failed. Or any of the Marauders,1377,1322,2240′s or the Disco’s and 1720T that I have or had.

                I usually just put 4 or 5 drops of pell gun oil the strikers here and there.

                But what I noticed is the Crosman/Benjamin strikers fit a little more percise than the FLDAG striker does. Well with my guns anyway. Im not sure wich way I want to go about it yet with fixing it. I think I will take the tube exstension off the Disco valve that I solderd on and leave the stem short this time. That should make it harder to get side to side or up down movment. Then I think I will make a exstension to press fit on the front of the striker. That should help if the striker is not hitting square. I may make the face into a radius instead of flat also on the stem of the valve. That will give less surface area for the striker to hit. But to much to do always and not enough time. Will see how it goes.


                • Gunfun
                  I have also only oiled the strikers on my crosmans, but they are much shorter and not as heavy as the striker in the 60C so that is why I greased it and the bolt is also much bigger in 60C than the bolts on crosmans. The crosmans do fit tighter than the 60C does so adding an extension on the front of the striker would work if you can make it to help keep the striker from cocking in the receiver when sliding forward when fired ans a shorter stem could also help. Is the stem a loose fit in the rear half of the disco valve body, I know the stem to valve body fit in my 2289 and 760 are about a .005 ‘” clearance between valve body and stem which does not allow for the valve to be pushed sideways or up or down by the strikers when fired. I do remember the fit between the stem and valve body on my 60C was quite a bit looser like .020″ clearance that you could actually move stem around in a circular motion in rear of valve body and was what I thought to be to loose, but mine has work pretty well so far except for about 4 or 5 times when it has leaked right after a refill and quits after a dry firing it once. I would definitely look into getting the striker to move in a straighter path in receiver when fired and I think some thick grease would help that some as well as an extension that fit tighter in receiver/ Then the stem being pushed sideways or up and down would not be as much of an issue. just my thoughts.
                  Buldawg


          • buldawg
            The disco valve is pretty tight on the stem clearance to the hole. I would say .005″ or just a tad more. And I think I will try some wheel bearing grease or something similar on the striker when I get everything made and ready. See that’s what happens to me when something doesn’t work the way I like. I should just be done with this gun but I know deep down inside it wants to live. So I will try again. :)

            But remember my HW 50 S is suppose to be here tomorrow. So I’m sure I will be occupied with it for a while. :) :) Yes that is me being double happy.


            • Gunfun
              I thought the crosman stem to valve body fits were much tighter than the 60C valve are, the .005″ sound right because that’s what mine are. That shouldn’t allow the striker to be able to push the stem off to side in any direction very easily, I also put a little silicone grease on the valve stem to help seal it in the valve. I think crosman should actually put a o-ring in the valve body to seal the stem properly, but they don’t so I use a little silicone to help.

              I hate that you are having so many issues with your 60C because I told you at the beginning about how good a gun I felt it was for the money and now I feel bad because yours has been nothing but a headache, I just hate that. Don’t give up on it because when you do get it sorted out I know you will like it.

              yea I know you will be occupied with the HW 50 for awhile so enjoy it and maybe a rest from the 60C will make fixing it easier when you get back to it.
              I am also Happy Happy now that I have a PC back up and running. talk to later
              Buldawg


              • buldawg
                Dont be upset. Im just lucky like that. I f there is a bad one in the bunch I will usually get.

                And believe me I wont give up. Im like that. I will get it working one way or another. :)


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