Tech Force TF90 dot sight

by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier

Tech Force 90 dot sight
Tech Force TF90 dot sight

This report covers:

• Tech Force TF90 dot sight
• Description
• How does a dot sight work?
• Parallax?
• Easier to use than open sights
• Not the latest and greatest

Tech Force TF90 dot sight
I was right there when this Tech Force TF90 dot sight was being designed. I watched it evolve over several years of development, as each new model was revealed at successive SHOT Shows. I even tested a forerunner of this sight in the 1990s for The Airgun Letter by mounting it on a Beeman P1 pistol.

The Tech Force TF90 was developed by Compasseco, who used a Chinese optics factory that also made sights for their military. According to Duane Sorenson of Compasseco, the optics and manufacturing details of this sight were superior to similar Chinese-made dot sights because of who built it. In the 1990s Compasseco did a lot of business in China and had enough influence to get products designed to their specifications, and Duane was especially proud of this sight.

Description
You can see from the picture that the outer shell of this sight is square, yet the optics are round. The objective lens is 28mm in diameter, which is in the middle size range for today’s dot sights. Still, when you look through the sight, everything is clear and sharp, because the optics are very clean and there is no magnification.

The base is adaptable to both 11mm dovetails as well as Weaver dovetails. Everything you need comes with the scope, including elasticized square lens covers. It can fit on a wide variety of airguns and firearms.

The base is integral with the sight tube. There’s nothing to do except clamp the sight to your airguns or firearms, and, yes, this sight should work well on firearms of at least the rimfire class. You’ll need a recoil stop if you mount this on a gun that recoils and use the 11mm mount base, because it has no stop built in. The Weaver base takes care of that, of course.

Tech Force 90 dot sight Weaver base
Here, the Weaver base has been installed. Note that the rear screw hangs below the base and engages the Weaver or Picatinny slot to serve as a recoil stop.

Tech Force 90 dot sight 11mm base
The base hardware can be swapped to make the base fit 11mm scope dovetails, too.

This is a very small sight. It’s only 4-1/2 inches long, and the clamping base is just 2-3/8 inches long. That makes it ideal for those vintage air rifles that weren’t really made for scopes but have 11mm dovetails for peep sights. I mounted it on my Hakim rifle and there was room to spare. Now, guns that are difficult to scope – such as the vintage Walthers, FWBs and Dianas — can have this optical sight installed.

The adjustments are the same elevation and windage knobs you’ve used with scopes. I don’t have any information about how far each click of the adjustments will move the 3 MOA dot, but I’ve been adjusting it as though it has quarter-minute clicks, and so far (at 10 meters) it seems to have adjusted correctly.

What appears in the first picture to be the adjustment knobs are really caps. Remove them, and the knobs are adjusted with a screwdriver or coin. The clicks are very precise in both directions. The scales on the knobs, however, have no corresponding reference marks on the body of the tube. So, adjusting the sight is a matter of counting the clicks for each adjustment.

Tech Force 90 dot sight adjustment knob
The dot’s adjustment knobs are operated by a screwdriver or a coin. The clicks are precise, but there’s no reference scale on the sight’s body to register where you’ve adjusted.

The lenses appear to have a ruby coating. The tint is red, and I remember Duane telling me something like that. Ruby coatings are not really made from the mineral ruby. They’re just called that because of the color. The red may help with certain light transmission. Steiner made them famous years ago, but they aren’t commonly seen today. They can leave the other colors looking washed out, but they don’t look like that to me. I am red-green colorblind, so I’m not the best judge.

The dot is a 3 MOA dot, which means it covers approximately 3 inches of area at 100 yards. But there are 7 different rheostat settings, so the dot can be made very bright. I find this sight to be many times brighter and more visible than the cheaper sights that sell in the same price range. This is more in line with my vintage Tasco Pro Point sight, as far as visibility is concerned.

As the light is intensified, the dot expands in size. There’s no good way of measuring this, so don’t ask how much. You use only as much brightness as you need to see the dot against the target, and I believe that cancels the expansion tendency. In other words, if the dot is just bright enough to see, it will always me about 3 MOA.

Tech Force 90 dot sight dot
This image shows the dot larger than it appears. This is a camera reaction to the shutter remaining open long enough to see the dot. The image you’ll see is crystal clear.

How does a dot sight work?
A dot sight works like a telescopic sight. When the adjustments are changed, the internal mechanism (an LED aimed at a lens with a reflective surface on one side) moves the dot without apparent movement to the user. The dot remains centered in the window as long as your head is on the stock at the same place every time.

Parallax?
People will tell you that dot sights don’t have parallax, but that’s incorrect. They have the same tendency for parallax as scopes. Because they don’t magnify the target, the movement (of the dot against the target as the aiming eye moves) is hard to see — but it’s there. And the sight will do its best at one range over all others.

Easier to use than open sights
But here’s the deal. The amount of parallax error from a dot sight is less than the aiming error that results from an incorrect sight picture with traditional open sights. Said a different way, it’s easier to be accurate with a dot sight than with traditional open sights. And, as eyesight degrades, this benefit becomes more pronounced. So, people with poor eyesight will often find that dot sights help them shoot better than they’ve been able to shoot with open sights.

Not the latest and greatest
A lot of time has passed since this TF90 was new, and the technology has certainly advanced far in this field. Today, we have dot sights with different colored dots, as well as different reticles to select — all in one sight. The TF90 was advanced for its day, but in today’s market the same features are offered by a number of manufacturers. However, there’s one huge difference. Nobody is selling a sight of this quality at this price! You get a bundle of quality for the price of a bargain-basement sight. That is what you have to consider when looking at this one.

There are a limited number of these available; and when they are gone, there will be no more. If a dot sight is something you’ve thought about buying, you may want to consider getting one or more of these. I have 2 Tasco Pro Points that I’ve owned for more than 15 years. At one time they were considered very good sights. Today, they have been surpassed by technology — but that doesn’t make them worse. They’re still very good dot sights, and so is the TF90.

I’ll be reporting on this sight in future reports of other airguns — with the Hakim air rifle at 25 yards being the next one I do (click to read the Hakim 10-meter test with this sight). While there won’t be a Part 2 to this report, you’ll get to see how well this sight performs. I don’t think I’m sending this one back to Pyramyd Air, because I can always use one more good optical sight!

104 thoughts on “Tech Force TF90 dot sight

  1. Thoughts on the Scout Rifle Sight concept.
    What really seems to be lacking is a realistic scenario of how a Scout Rifle might be used. Are you really a Scout? Monitoring some sort of enemy force, in behalf of your own (subjugated) organization?
    Is the idea that perhaps you can harass the “enemy” with random sniper fire from a distance with your hyper-accurate built-in-bipod, stripper-clip-friendly, telescope sighted carbine?
    Grow up and concentrate on the concept of the Scout.
    If you ever find yourself in a firefight armed with a bolt action rifle facing an enemy platoon with modern weapons and air support, you have ROYALLY failed in your ” Scouting” mission, AKA, “User Failure Of Concept.”
    And by the way, if that is indeed the scenario, you’re about to experience the “Lights-Out” outcome.

    A real Scout is unlikely to expend or invest the weight and bulk on any telescopic or dot sight at all. Better lose the 2.2 lbs of weight and invest in the equivalent weight in ammunition. Or better yet, a lightweight, suppressed .22 pistol to pot dinner without alerting everyone within 5 sqaure miles with your 7.62 NATO chambered carbine. Them things is noisy. You never heard of Shot-Spotter?
    To a real Scout geting in, and out with nobody knowing they were there is HIGHLY desirable.
    Cooper’s Scout Carbine absolutely insures that you’ll die heroically.
    As you might think, there’s a lot more to this subject. But the real deal is to first define what, EXACTLY, are you up to. Scouting? Survival of you and Yours? Selfless immolation of a fancied enemy that may or may not actually exist in real life? How ’bout that neighbor that plays his Rap/C & W/Reggaie/Salsa/Polka mix tape every morning starting at 5 AM? (Well, okay. THAT guy certainly deserves whatever happens to him. There be folks lining up to popa cap on THAT dude.
    The night becomes too late, more to come, ‘specially on the scope itself.


    • LOL! You have just made yourself most unpopular with the Preppers.

      Seriously though, as I stated previously, this does allow you to use your old war horse as a deer rifle without chopping it up any, although I think I would use a different mount than that thing Leapers sent to BB.

      As far as a combat weapon, I would be most hesitant to mount a scope in place of the open sights on any of them. Murphy has a tendency to make his presence known at the most inopportune time. That is why they made QD mounts. If you have removed the sights to mount the scope, you may have an issue.

      A bolt action as a combat weapon? Oh yeah Babe. A 30-06 will reach much farther than a 5.56. I would want a small, light spray and pray for when I am on the move though.


    • One of the benifits of the scout scope idea is the forward mounting of the scope which allows for easier carry , and reloading of a HUNTING rifle. Any scope is better than the open sights that would be mounted on the rifle in the same place as the scout scope is. It also allows mounting scopes on rifles which are proven designs, but didn’t provide for optical sighting equipment do to their design. BB’s Mosin , my 98. the Winchester 62,94,92,86,ect… are obvious examples. The scout scope concept is about hitting your target with minimal delay on the part of the shooter delivering the shot. Mikes post below is an example of the practical use of the scout scope for the hunter. Today we seem to be obsessed with this mall ninja concept of fending off hordes of zombies ,or whatever “survival ” senario some wingnut can devise. Somehow ,the practical aspects of advances of riflery skill and design of useful acessories that help folks who just want to shoot better and use stuff they already have in practical applications is lost .



    • I know Jeff Cooper put a lot into his Scout rifle concept which I read awhile ago and cannot completely recall. But is his idea discarded that easily? Anyway, getting to the basic question of the purpose of the scout rifle, my sense is that the purpose was to be versatile in an environment with limited resources. The “scout” term was less Force Recon than a sort of Kit Carson idea. So the specific purpose was any purpose. Along these lines, one possible purpose of the forward position of the scout scope was to balance magnification and field of view which is a problem with any scope set-up. Your big honking scope is great for nailing targets at a distance but useless when the feral pig erupts out of the bushes in front of you. Getting back to the Mosin, I find that the Russians tried to account for this by placing the scope so high that you could look below it to use the iron sights. Don’t care for this arrangement myself but the combat experience was all on their side.

      Thanks for your info the other day. I wrote to Armalite to ask if they were going to introduce the AR 180 which is based on the AR18, and they gave me an equivocal answer. Years have passed since then. I had heard that the main problem with the AR18 was one of timing and marketing. With the profusion of ARs and the big U.S. commitment to the design, no one was willing to invest in something similar. Poor production would also explain the lack of acceptance and would not be unrelated to the lack of resources behind it. On the other hand, I see that the SL8 is a commercial version of the G36 that has already been introduced. It was not a commercial success, but no one had any complaints about the accuracy which has been one of the gripes against a piston system for the AR.

      Your take on the legendary T34 was quite surprising. That is supposed to be the ultimate tank of WWII which was a festival of tanks, especially with the German contributions. I’m not surprised about the ergonomic limitations since the Russians have been somewhat casual about that. There is a story that during the defense of Stalingrad, some novice driver made a mistake and drove into a ditch. So a high level officer who happened to be riding, got out, pulled open the hatch and executed him on the spot. The creature comforts were not a priority (although I think most people would be surprised at how easy the Mosin is to shoulder and point). On the other hand, as blog reader Victor noted, the Russian engineering genius is all about doing the essentials well with limited resources and reliability and survivability are high on the list. My understanding is that the tank was operated by banging a mallet on the controls. Not ergonomic, but it always worked. For the survivability, one can see by looking that the T34 armor is heavily sloped which contributed to its defense. To hear that this armor was of substandard metal when the Mosins are just about indestructible is a surprise.

      Vince, no kidding that the American WWII ammo was corrosive. But one never hears about American surplus from that era so that was never one my radar. The problem must have been solved by the 70s when my ammo dates from.

      Matt61


      • Matt, a couple of things. On the T34, the real ones are much smaller than one might think…which I learned first hand after crawling through Littlefield’s T34. The Aberdeen review is interesting reading. After checking out the shot-up two that Stalin sent over during the war, the American crew apparently were vociferous in noting there was not enough room for even two normal sized crew plus warm clothing inside that admirably (not) slope-sided turret.
        The post-war review noted the average crew-fatality rate of “knocked-out” T34 VS the (somewhat wrongly) maligned Sherman was ; 4 out 5 Sherman survivors VS 1 out of even 4 or 5 T34 survivors.
        You’ll also notice that the front plate on the Sherman, if anything, is slightly more angled than the T34.
        The later 3 man turrets were VERY similar, flatish side armor! to later Shermans. Still, hull sides nicely sloped, and the tracks very wide indeed. Too bad they thought it a good idea to stack naked main-gun ammunition behind but inch thick mild steel (not-necessarily) hardened.
        Check out the “Tank Portal” on Wikipedia. A number of interesting observations/revelations.
        Almost ALL WWII ammo was/is corrosive. Truly nasty stuff, don’t buy it, and even if free, for God’s sake, don’t shoot it. But…the one exception? Bet you can’t guess. I promise I’ll tell later. B. B. probably knows.
        Since we’re recommending books, and we’re referencing Mountain Men, I’ll direct you to Vardis Fisher’s book, appropriately titled “Mountain Man.” I cannot recommend this highly enough. While it’s a very thinly veiled story about real people, in the VERY wild west starting in 1846. I found it a real page turner.
        This was the basis of Redford’s movie, “Jeremiah Johnson.” (ISBN 0-89301-251-3) or maybe (new ISBN 9780893012519) They shifted to 13 digit codes some few years ago, but I’m sure Amazon will know what you’re asking about.
        Hope B.B. is listening about Vardis Fisher, but likely already knows.
        Enough for the moment, got to work in the morning for the eye Docs…everybody please wear their safety goggles…(you wouldn’t believe…)
        (No, I didn’t forget. The US made (anyway) M1 carbine ammo has always been non-corrosive from day one, because the gas system was not normally user accessible for cleaning/maintenance. )


  2. I don’t know if this is a good example of what a dot sight will do. And first thing I want to say is I do like dot sights.

    But I found if you have a gun that will shoot good groups at 50 yards and in with a scope. The dot sight will try its best to place the shots good if you take the time to get the dot sight sighted in good.

    If you have a gun that doesn’t shoot as good of groups with a scope. Well the dot sight will follow what a scope shoots also.

    I used a Tasco red dot on my .177 cal. Discovery that I got when the Disco’s came out. I shot that Disco that way for along time. Then I put a scope on it and I had to start using hold over and under with the scope. When I had the dot sight on the rifle it was just as quick as point and shoot when I was making a shot. I didn’t have to think.

    And I wont forget this one. My buddy had me come over and help him rid a barn of field mice one winter. I had the Disco with the Tasco red dot on it and was using Superdomes. He had one also that he got about a month back after he saw how my Disco was shooting but he had a 3-9 power scope on it. he had it down on 3 power and he still couldn’t find the mice in the sight picture as fast as I could with the dot sight. I shot like 16 or so mice and he shot like 5. We would both say there’s one and I would have it shot before his shot would even go off. And we were averaging about 15 to 20 yard shots on the distance. Maybe the scope would of helped him at a longer distance or maybe It would of equaled things out.

    But dot sights can be used precisely if you take some time getting them dialed in that’s for sure. And if I needed another dot sight right now I would buy one of these TF90′s.

    And I do like those flip flop all in one mounts also. I have had them on different sights in the past. And I have thought to myself why hasn’t anybody made some scope rings that work like that too.


    • As you have experienced, dot sights are great for hunting, especially when the range is limited. If you are deer hunting in the woods, it is seriously the way to go.


  3. B.B.

    How does the TF90 compare to the BSA Panoramic Multi-Reticle Sight, 4 Reticles, Weaver Mount that’s on sale this month? I understand that it’s less expensive and has both 3/8″ and Weaver mounts, but what about optical quality?

    I’m thinking about putting it on my IZH-60.

    Thanks!

    Jim


    • Jim,

      I haven’t tested or even seen that BSA Panoramic dot sight, so my opinions of it is not useful. It does look like a very nice sight. I know those open view dot sights are very easy to use. And it has multiple reticles that I mentioned the TF 90 doesn’t have. Those used to cost $300-500 about 15 years ago.

      So I would say if you are interested in the BSA, get it. But to anyone who just wants a simple dot sight, I think this TF90 is the best deal going right now.

      B.B.


    • I have not had experience with that particular sight, but my experience with a similar one was not to my liking and it quickly found a new home. It was very sensitive to the angle at which you were looking through it (parallax).


    • Jim,
      I found on BSA sight associated with the number 835299 that I really liked, 4 reticle nice slim profile with only the screen/lense sticking up that looks a lot like one of mine that I really like! it costs $40,I couldn’t find any pictures of the reticles yet but I’ll look later.Thanks for bringing it to light.I’m just curious and have no money to spend but I’m sure there are many here that do.


  4. B.B.,

    I regularly use dot sights on my pistols. I have found them to be particularly good for Silhouette target shooting. Sight acquisition is very fast, accuracy is excellent and I love being able to keep both eyes open. I do not have this dot sight however and right now I have eight dot sights. I ended up with several before I found a couple of them that I really liked. Of course, like many people I started out trying to make do with a couple of cheap ones. When will I ever learn?

    Do you think it would be beneficial to someone in my position to still have one of these?

    G&G


    • G&G,

      Yes, I do. I am buying this one from Pyramyd Air, and I probably have at least 7 other dot sights. Only 2 of them — my old Tasco Pro Points — are any good, though. This one is in their class.

      B.B.


      • B.B.,

        I meant to say that my favorite dot sights right now are the Bushnell Trophy sights. I also like the Centerpoint 1×25 multi-Tac. I do recommend the Bushnell Trophy sights. However, it doesn’t look like P.A. carries them anymore. I wonder why?

        G&G



  5. A red dot sight is an equalizer for those of us with imperfect eye sight.

    A group of my retired neighbors that I have gotten into combat air pistol shooting at my indoor range. almost all have difficulty using open sights. One can’t use them at all. When we allow red dot or laser sights, it puts everyone on an equal playing field and makes it more enjoyable for those with eye sight issues. The younger ones who can still use iron sights well, call it “cheating”.

    I believe they even now allow red dot sights in some “bulls eye” matches.


  6. Open sights are my favorite, but, I do own and use “dot” sights as well (I don’t care for scopes). That said, I’ve never used “halo/projection” type sights. Can anyone on here that has owns/uses these give me any insight on them? Are they better than or easier to use than dot sights?


  7. BB, with regard to the article on moly, Mr. Martin states “moly caught loose between 2 hard steel rolling objects, such as ball or roller bearings acts just like an abrasive and sinks into one or the other. And when sealed into a liquid lubricant, acts like sand.” He describes his tests and the fact that a company was going to market auto and wheel grease with moly. As a result of Mr. Martin,s tests, they decided not to market the “lubricant”. Air guns probably get less use than the bearings in autos, but I still think that you should read the article and perhaps some of the machinests and engineers who contribute to this blog might want to run some tests. Ed



      • Vince,

        I did it in an airport, while filming American Airguner. I poked a hole through a card and peered through it — round hole. Then I closed my non-sighting eye — hole closed up.

        B.B.


    • Ed
      I don’t know if this is helpful. But at work we have tool spindles that are a precise fit to a sleeve or flange is what we call them that the tool spindle slips in. We have to lube that in some way so it doesn’t heat up and seize in the flange. When that happens the operators can not make the adjustments they need for that tool. And then its down time for the machine and I don’t have a good day then.

      We tryed molybdenum disulphide on the spindles and found it only took a few days of use and the flange and spindle had scratches all over it from the in and out adjustment the operators were making and would finally seize up. What was funny is when we got the spindle out of the flange the molybdenum was still slick feeling to the touch but the spindle and flange needed to be repaired by polishing them from all the scratches.

      I think it was the guy that we get our lubricants and cutting oils from is the person that suggested it. We ended up going back to the grease that we have always used for over 30 years and all was good. It is made in Germany and is what the machines call for in the manuals to use. Its a yellow orange colored grease that is made from whale fat. But that’s what we use and no problems anymore.


  8. Reb
    Just a quick note to let you know your spring is on it way to you. Let me know when you get it and how your gun shoots when you get it back together.

    Buldawg


    • Buldawg,Thank you.The way I’m moving it will probably take me a day to get it back together,if I get the trigger assembly right the first time but I’ve been keeping brushed up by watching a video disassembly I’ve found .Got my grease gun full of Moly and knockin’ burs off. Kinda apprehensive about doing any trigger work until I get it shooting again.This trigger brings back memories of my original RedRyder with it’s stamped steel blade and rocking motion.so long as the weather holds out I’ll be Chronying it first thing as soon as it stops spittin’ oil.I’ll be posting those numbers here as soon as possible.

      Reb


      • Reb
        If the trigger is the same as in the B-3s which I would say it probably is, I would be careful about doing to much polishing on the trigger sear to piston contact surface as u have heard that they are not real good metal and other than just lightly smoothing the surface some I would not polish them to a mirror finish. Yea the trigger on my B-3 is the same way and I did not do anything but lightly smooth the contact surface.

        Just got my water pimp job apart and waiting for new parts to put it back together.

        Let us know how it shoots for sure.

        buldawg


        • Thumbs up on the water pump! I really miss having the gratification of returning someone’s vehicle to proper working order! What used to happen about 10-15 times per day is down to one every 3-4 months.I’ve done as much to this trigger as I’m going to do until I can test it,I’ve read about too many people having to send them in for reprofiling by someone who knows what they’re doing. Time for a make run.I think I’ll drag one of those mowers out and see If someone might drop some cash in my pocket.

          Reb


          • Reb
            I only get jobs like this every now and then also and I am the same as you in what I used to turn out in repair work every day now takes me several days to complete. My only benefit is that I have 100,000 dollars in tools that I have bought over my forty five year career as a mechanic/technician at my availability which make doing most jobs easier when you have the proper special tool to get it done.

            I pity my wife if I die first because I have three tool boxes packed full of just about every tool you could possibly need to repair cars and motorcycles. one tool box is the size of a 4 foot by 8 foot piece of plywood. When I would move from one dealer to another I would call a rollback tow truck to drag my boxes up on and strap them down. The only other way to move them is to pick them up with the arms of the vehicle lift in the dealer and set them in my truck, but then to get them out at the house you have to take every drawer out of the boxes and get three weak minded and strong backed buddies to help lift the empty boxes out of the truck and put all the drawers back in. It is much easier to pay a wrecker to move them for me. By the time you supply your weak minded buddies with all the beer they want to help you the tow truck is cheaper.

            Buldawg


            • Hey Buldawg,
              I used to get Very nervous when the was over 1′ of air under mine,I’d lower one of our drive-on racks, push the runners together and roll it on. Had to ride the rack up so I could keep my hands on it, then back my El camino under to roll it into.Too many times!

              Reb


              • Reb
                That’s why I called a flat bed tow truck because if the boxes fell off their wrecker then they were responsible for any damages. And believe me they had overkill on the amount of strap holding them in place including chains. Never has any problems, but I know how you feel because it is your livelihood in those boxes.

                Buldawg


                • We had quite a few guys that would take all theirs home every night, but then again a couple were notorious for disappearing for weeks at a time.



    • buldawg
      I read the comment you made yesterday on the range you visited but there was nowhere to reply. It was a mile long one liner post. I was going to say that the other day. If the thread starts getting to thin and or reply will turn into one line. We need to just reply with I will answer you below. That way we will still get a email that we responded. Then we can pickup what we were talking about with more room to respond. Those one liners makes my eye’s hurt. :)

      But it sounds like that range has some thought put into it that you went and checked out. A target every 10 yards. Now that’s my kind of shooting.

      But kind of a bummer that they don’t at least have a picnic table or something at the shooting stations. Now you will have to get you a shooting table. And if you are going to compete in that long distance sniper event that you said is coming up; maybe you should ask if they are going to require a certain type of bench and rests. That’s the thing with competition they try to keep it standardized. Well you know what I mean look at NASCAR and all those other racing events. But yep it sounds like a cool range.


      • Gunfun
        I was wondering about how to keep from getting the long one word string type post so now I will just state to see below, thanks.

        Yea that is why I went yesterday to check it out so I would now what it had and what I needed to bring. The archery range had two concrete slabs and metal roofs over them with a couple benches in each shooting area. I will know more Saturday when the club is going to be there as to what is allowed for the field target matches and for the sniper match. I sure hope bench rest and bags are allowed because if it is off hand or kneeling I will not have a chance. I cannot hold a gun steady in the off hand position and my bad right knee keeps me from being able to kneel with any stability also. So I hope it is either bench rested or prone with a bipod because then I at least stand a decent chance of being competitive in the event.

        I have a fold up picnic type hard plastic bench that would make an excellent shooting table and plenty or shooting bags for bench shooting. I also have a bipod that will fit the hatsan if it going to be prone, but I will have to come up with a thick blanket or pad for a shooting prone.

        Like I said they have plenty of targets there is five rows of targets every 10 yards out to 100 yards and some 25 meter, 50 meter and 75 meter targets that will hold paper targets as well. Then there are probably 10 or so reactive targets like squirrels, rabbits and birds that have a kill zone that you knock down and then a paddle at the bottom that you can shoot to reset the kill zone target and they are at varying distances also. I think they still have a lot more that needs to be done to host the nationals in October, but I will know more this Saturday and keep you informed.

        Buldawg


  9. Beyond the “Scout” concept And on to the scope itself, RidgeRunner, Robert, B. B., and the rest make excellent and thoughtful observations.
    B. B., not so sure a Mountain Man would use a dot-sight beyond the first season as they need batteries. Perhaps something like the old Aim-Point would be more realistic for them as it mostly gave the advantages of the dot in a battery-free format. Does require two eyes though. (I work for a medical practice specializing in eye-surgery. Believe me when I say, not all of us with aging eyes necessarily have two fully functioning eyeballs.)
    Some like the balance of the forward mount and I say if it works for you, go for it. But that brings up “What do you have yourself and why?” (Actually, the question is usually more like, “What do you have yourself, wise-A**…)
    Depends on what you’re mounting it on. And what’s it need to do. The forward mount is there to allow use of stripper clips and to clear loading and ejection functions of breech loading arms.
    At one time, back in the ’20′s and ’30′s, Mauser stated that all of their arms, even the sporting ones, had the stripper clip guides. I can’t say for sure about that point, but it would not have been a bad idea. And items like the Winchester lever actions (ejecting straight-up) came along, not to mention B. B.’s Nagant with its Straight-Out-East-Rotating-North-and-Back-Again action (what were they thinking?) And dare I mention the Garand? Requiring either a side-mount or forward mount to even load the darn thing (I say with great affection.)
    All this at a time when Ithaca was producing their Featherweight shotgun that both loaded from the bottom but mechanically/magically ejected from the same port. Reliably, too. Mount a dot, 1X, or anything you want on one of those, anywhere you want. They were take-downs, too. (Wish I still had that one.)
    As concerns air-guns, selecting the scope to clear magazines and loading ports no easier.
    Whoops, got to go to work, more later today.


    • I thought that the Aimpoints had batteries that were extremely long lasting. If they don’t use batteries, what is their power source? For the long-lasting batteries, the mountain men could just stock up on their annual trips to civilization.

      Matt61


      • You’re right. I quoted the wrong memory. Now I have to go research and find just exactly the correct name of what I was referring to. It was a battery-free scope-like appearing device but you could not look through it. Closing one eye to peer through there and all you saw was a red dot on an opaque black background.
        The secret was to keep both eyes open and allow your second eye to merge the two images together to give a superimposed red dot on a (apparently) live image. Illumination of the red dot came from a clear, light gathering dome pointing (oddly enough) straight forward along the axis of the barrel. Not so odd when you realize having the light gathering part pointing at your target, instead of up to collect all the light falling on…you…meant you had no need to be conveniently lit up for your target’s return fire.
        I also rather, maybe remember them having pretty much infinite eye-relief so they were “Scout Scope Style” friendly.


      • Ah! Talk about aging eyes, it’s the aging brain that’s the problem.
        It was the “Quick Point” AKA the “Qwik-Point” and probably a number of other American-cute-advertising-spellings. Marketed by Weaver for a time.


  10. My 6 year old Nephew Adyn knows how to use the open sights on his Buck well enough that he knows when he’s got a flyer.It probably takes him about 15-20 seconds to get a shot off with them but when I set him up with my 953( Daisy’s point sight must be a rendition of the Tasco’s B.B.and GunFun have mentioned),equipped with a Daisy Point sight,he started getting his shots off in less than 10 seconds.This speaks volumes to me about the ease of use of Dot sights and if I had the money I would be quick to jump on the opportunity to have another one or 3. I’ll have to wait a couple years for him to grow before he could use anything I currently have a scope on, Hopefully I’ll get something set up so he can get some time behind crosshairs before long.

    Reb


    • Reb
      I taught both of my girls to shoot with a dot sight. Its just to easy. You see the dot. put it on the target and shoot. It was much easier for them to shoot and learn and have fun at the same time.

      They did learn how to shoot open sight also. But that came along after they had the shooting and safety concept down. Then came the scopes. Well and then the See All sight also. They both can shoot just as well with it too.

      But if you want to get somebody into air gun shooting and show them how much fun they can be. A red dot, a soda can at 25 yards and a nice little light weight air rifle is a pretty good combination. I have sold guns in the past just because somebody tryed one and they wanted that particular gun because they shot it and liked it.


      • Prepare for reticle problems win the future as I have found with my Anschutz. :-) On the other hand, maybe the red dot can be more accurate than I thought. I think the intention is just to put the red dot on your target so that its diameter is the call radius of the shot which is the upper limit of accuracy. But given appropriately symmetrical targets, like a circular bull, you can align a circular dot in such a way that it might work in a similar way to the globe reticle.

        Matt61


        • Matt
          That’s one way I use a dot sight. Match the dot to a ring on the target.

          And here is another thing I found if I zero the dot sight at 30 yards. and set my target/object right on top of the dot so I can see the whole object. Then I can put the dot right on the target/object at longer distances. Kind of acts like hold over.


  11. BB
    I got a question I forgot to ask also. I got thinking I don’t think I have ever tryed a red dot on a springer or nitro piston gun that I can remember anyway.

    Will the TF90 hold up to a magnum springer? I’m guessing it will do fine if it can be used on firearm also. Right?



      • BB
        People use them on shotguns and such also. So you would think they would be durable enough.

        I dropped one of my Tasco red dots from about waist high down onto a concrete floor and it put a little dent on the front side by the lens and that thing still works to this day. And that was years ago that I dropped it.


    • I plan to mount my point sight on the QB-36 after I get it back together and dial in the irons.It will be a whole lot easier to use than the Red Star 4×20 scope that came with it!I’ll eventually have to get another optic around here. I guess it all depends on how the 36 turns out and how much money I got what it will be. I really wanna try one of the AO scopes and probably put that on the Airmaster. It’s lethal to anything within 60 yards and 10 lbs or less with the Tasco 4×32 but has to be constantly adjusted for different ranges and isn’t all that clear until range is about 50 yards.I’ll let you know if any problems arise but I’ve witnessed this sight going through some serious trauma with no ill effect, it always bounces right back on sight.It’s just the part about those sassafrassin’ batteries!

      Reb


  12. Vince, the article re the dark side of molly is in a magazine called Precision Shooting July 2007 vol 55 no 3.It is on page 89, and it,s title is “Merril Martin Reflects on Moly”.It has me wondering if there is a substitute for molly that might be better. David – The old aimpoint uses batteries. I still have mine ( from the 70,s)and I still use them. I was shooting the NRA pistol course (started 1967) with iron sights I shot 250 (out of a possible 300 points), The Bushnell Phantom scope raised my scores to the 260-270 level. When I replaced the scope with my 1st aimpoint, I shot scores in the 270-280 ,s. Red dot sights work for me. Ed


    • I’ve heard that red dots are an improvement on iron sights in terms of both accuracy and rapid acquisition, and I suppose that would be true of the aperture open sights as well as the older notch style.

      Matt61


      • One significant advantage, especially for those with less then perfectly flexible eye sight, is that one is not trying to focus on a front sight, and hoping to have some sharpness of the rear sight (and lets not mention the blur that the target turns into). The dot is supposed to be “projected” to the plane of the target, so one’s eye focuses at distance, not up close (properly adjusted scope eyepieces should also result in the eye focusing at distance).


  13. Do you know if this thing can be shipped to us in Canada? Shipping optics from the US requires a license and scope are usually out of the question but I don’t know if it includes red dots.

    J-F








            • There are numerous videos on YT of kids making them for airsoft applications. You’d be impressed by some of their creations! the concept is pretty simple, a laser pointer and a lens.Some of the materials they use would need to be replaced with more durable materials but Hey.I started to sift through them to offer a good example but my computer froze then crashed and now I have no audio. Got frustrated with the computer and now doing a motor transplant on a mower.

              Reb


          • I can buy optics or make as many optics as I want here. It’s the US that passed a law regarding optics exportation so US optics don’t end up in terrorists hands.
            Customs here couldn’t care less. Some people buy them on ebay. There’s no problem for the buyer it’s the US seller that will get in trouble.

            J-F


  14. Very illuminating about red dot sights which addresses my two major questions. The first is whether the dot can be made bright enough to see in daylight. My cheapo red dots cannot really do this. The second is based on the wisdom that with red dot sights you either go big ($500 minimum) or you stay home. This sight apparently achieves both of these things. Most appealing.

    Matt61


    • Matt
      The Tasco that I have has 11 settings and I can see the dot in bright sun light from 11 which is the brightest setting down to about 8. Below that the dot is hard to see.

      But on the other hand if its dark outside I can see the dot on setting#1.


  15. Off topic question . Before the fps race in airguns there was a lot development with gun powder ..the best powder has a flash point right at 4000 fps ..there are two cartridges that shoot 4000 fps .the 220 swift and 219 donaldson wasp are a couple thay i can think of . Being such small caliber what primary use are those for varmit or sniper .


    • Chris,

      Varmints, for sure, but deer and antelope, too. The Swift, especially, is a wonderful long-range rifle for thin-skinned medium game. Maybe a bit light for goats and sheep, but perfect for whitetails and antelope, or for 500-yard coyotes.

      B.B.


      • Either round would work with the .22 cal 60 grain Nosler Partition bullet. It’s made for hunting somewhat larger game than you normally use a .22 center fire rifle for. I know it works well on Whitetail Deer.

        Mike


  16. Wow, this is a really eclectic comments blog – the topics are going all over so I guess I can go real off topic here. BB and others, I picked up my Civilian Marksmanship M1 from the FFL this past Saturday. He had called when I was on vacation to tell me he received it and I would really like this. To be succinct, it’s a brand new rifle. To expand, the action is H & R’s, the bolt is a Springfield, the barrel is unknown make (neither the FFL, another M1 shooter or myself could decode the markings other than it was made in 2014), the wood stock is brand new walnut – looks like unpolished furniture. We couldn’t find any part with any wear marks on it at all. We didn’t disassemble it or remove the trigger group but I found a good YouTube video on how to do that.

    Now I need to take a weekday off to go to the local range – Cherry Ridge Rifle Range -to try her out. Weekends are super crowded at the range is why I said weekday. Oh, the barrel markings are: CBI 6535448 1-10 01/14 4P. The rifle came with a tag stating muzzle reading “0″ and throat “0+”. Any clarification would be much appreciated.

    Fred DPRoNJ


    • Fred,

      Bring it along the next time we get together and I will have it apart in under 30 seconds. Oh, how I love field-stripping Garands!

      And boy were you lucky to get such a nice one. It sounds like a real shooter.

      B.B.


      • It’s a deal. I was going to search for the date for Roanoke or Salem, after I’m finished here.

        Fred DPRoNJ


    • It sounds like a arsenal rebuilt rifle. The “0″ markings means no barrel wear. Pretty much a new gun after the rebuild. It then went into war reserve storage until you received it. It needs to be properly lubed before you fire it. You have a good one……………Enjoy! The one I have was very similar.

      Mike


      • Mike,

        I watched a Brownell’s YouTube video and they went over where to lube and where to use grease and where to use oil. However, the FFL/gunsmith I had CMP mail the rifle to (required here in the Democratic Peoples’ Republic of NJ) went over it already. It really is a beauty. Everyone who sees it comments on what a cool rifle it is.

        Fred DPRoNJ



    • Wow, Fred! What sort of M1 did you order from CMP? I have a “Select Grade” H&R on order from them. My nostalgic half might feel a little bittersweet if I got one without some patina, but I sure wouldn’t send it back!

      PS, I’m a complete M1 noob, so I’m soon gonna pester the heck out of all the Garand veterans here with all manner of naive questions! Apologies in advance.

      -Jan


      • I’m a noob to Garands as well… but it didn’t keep me from jumping in and doing a barrel swap on mine. A new Criterion barrel shoots a lot better than the original, in which the bore pitting was largely filled in with copper deposits…


      • That’s what I ordered. Anything lower would have taken 6 months. I hope yours is as good as mine.

        Fred DPRoNJ


    • Fred DPRONJ
      The M1 are refurbished right here in Anniston, AL at the local CMP surplus arms division refurbishment center, we also have a pellet gun target range and munitions storage and distribution center here. I have been thinking of renewing my American legion membership to be able to buy some of those old refurbished guns that they sell and surplus ammo. It would be neat to own an old M1 Garand, I have a 1914 era model 1911 colt 45 pistol that was picked up off a deceased solider in WW1 by a friends dad in the war and I was able to purchase it from his mom when his dad passed away, I got the pistol, the cavalry holster with the owners name stamped in it “Campbell, Perkins 1917″ and four mags and two full boxes of surplus military ball ammo for 100 bucks. It is now worth in the neighborhood of 4 to 5000 dollars for just the pistol and the holster and clips are worth a good bit. It will never be sold.

      Buldawg


      • Buldawg,

        if you are over 62, then CMP waives the club or target shooting league or safety course requirement in order to purchase from them, I’m pretty sure I saw thats on their website somewhere so all you need do is show up and show ‘em your proof of age. Or, you can do it via mail or e-mail. I’m making the assumption you’re over 62 due to the “American Legion” membership comment. Sorry if I’m being presumptious, kid.

        Fred DPRoNJ


        • Fred DPRoNJ
          Not 62 yet, only 58 1/2 but I got my American legion membership due to my father being in the Air Force for 27 years which make my membership a son of military personnel. No issue with being presumptuous. I joined the legion because of my local chapters riders club and wanted to be part of a group of like minded motorcycle riders that loved this country and what is stood for and what our military has given up to make it what it is. I just hope we can keep it that way for the next 2 years till we can get the occupant that is there now thrown out on his butt.

          Buldawg




      • Reb
        Open’n the box tonight and mounting the Hawke scope and get’n up early tomorrow morning to sight it in.

        I already put a vacation day in for work. So a whole day of wringing it for the Hatsan tomorrow.




            • Reb
              I use a shooting stick or prop up against a tree or something if I’m out in the woods.

              Otherwise its bench resting for me.


              • I’ve got to get something figured out. I can’t see me dragging anything else out there that I’d have to hold other than my gun any more.But I can’t even lay prone,being right handed all my weight would shift to my left rib cage as soon as I reached for the trigger.Sleeping is a pain.


    • Gunfun
      Did you have to leave for work before the hatsan was delivered, that’s a bummer if you did.

      Get that scope mounted and wring it out good and let me know how many useable shots you get, I bet it is at least 40 and maybe more. Gone to need another mag I bet.

      The hatsan has a piccatinny rail on the fore arm as well as sling mounts and it comes with a sling also. You will need the sling to carry it thru the woods for any length of time as it is about 9 pounds. Your HW will feel like a feather weight compared to the hatsan but I think that helps with its accuracy in bench shooting cause it don’t jump as much when shot.

      Enjoy it and let me know how you like it.

      buldawg


      • buldawg
        Im going to find out what its about thats for sure.

        And I might not get much blog time in for the next few days or so. My wifes brother and his family is coming up from Texas for a week. So it gets kind of crazy around my place when they are up visiting. Me and him use to hunt all the time when we were kids. Thats how I got hooked up with my wife. So Im sure we will be having something going on.

        But yep I will let you know how the Hatsan goes.


  17. I have a Tasco Red Dot mounted on my Remington Nylon 66. It is very very fast and accurate. It is much faster to use than open or aperture sights. However, running rabbits don’t like it at all! :)

    Mike


  18. I guess this is my night for posts. I also have a Scout Scope on one of my two Sheridan “C” rifles. It makes pumping it easy. I used both Sheridan’s to clean pigeons out of a friends barn last summer.
    That gave me two shots before a reload.

    Mike


  19. I keep hearing about this Tasco Point sight. How many settings does it have? I find it difficult to believe that Daisy manufactured the point sight that I have but never really knew who made it. and Tasco being known for low priced quality, it sounds like they may be related. Mine only has a low and high but very reliable(so long as it get turned off).

    Reb


    • Who knows…

      I’m fairly certain I have an example or two of what was once sold as a Daisy dot sight… But mine are labeled either Celestron or Orion Telescopes…


      • Come to think of it my buddy Ray(telescope junky as opposed to BB gun bandit) liked mine and wanted on for his telescope, which started an interesting conversation.


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