Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle: Part 3

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle: Part 3

by Tom Gaylord, The Godfather of Airguns™
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Part 1
Part 2

Today’s report is a continuation of the guest blog from HiveSeeker. Today, he tells us about the rifle’s performance.

If you’d like to write a guest post for this blog, please email me.

Over to you, HiveSeeker.

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle

Daisy’s Winchester MP4 is a realistic and fun-to-shoot military replica pellet rifle.

This is the third installment in my evaluation of the Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle. The short version of Parts 1 and Part 2 is that this gun might be of interest to someone looking for a realistic AR15-style semiauto pellet rifle — as long as they can accept 1-inch, 10-yard groups and an intermittent ammo feed problem. I was determined to find out what was causing the ammo feed issue in order to minimize or eliminate it and was also certain the gun could shoot tighter groups with more testing. In Part 3 and also in Part 4, I make progress on both fronts.

This report covers:

• Catch-up
• The ammo feed problem
• Testing the ammunition magazine
• It’s the CO2 clip!
• Eliminating minor misfires

Catch-up
Before we continue, I want to add a couple comments that should have been included previously. First, in addition to the authentic realism of this replica gun, at 5.8 lbs., it hefts like a firearm. Most of the other military-style pellet rifles out there are lighter, and a number of reviewers mention that the realistic weight of the Winchester MP4 adds to its appeal. I agree.

Second (and B.B. was kind enough not to chide me for this), I failed to mention that despite the manual’s statement that no additional lubrication is needed for this gun once it leaves the factory, go ahead and put a drop of Crosman Pellgunoil on the tip of each CO2 cylinder when you install it. That will help keep all those seals healthy and happy for years to come.

The ammo feed problem
I hadn’t experienced the MP4′s ammo feed problems to nearly the extent of some other shooters, but I was determined to figure out the possible causes and eliminate or minimize them. I suspected that the problem might be related to either the ammunition magazine (which has an 8-shot rotary cylinder on each end where the pellets or BBs are loaded), or the CO2 clip (which holds the two CO2 cartridges). I already had a number of spare magazines and ordered six additional CO2 clips directly from Daisy Customer Service for testing.

winchester MP4 CO2 rifle mag and CO2 clip
Two ammunition magazines on the left. They have 8-shot rotary cylinders on each end that hold the pellets or BBs. On the right are two CO2 clips that hold the CO2 cartridges. The ammo mag slides into it. Keep all these terms straight for the discussion below! That little plastic CO2 piercing key fits neatly into the slot at the bottom of the CO2 clip cover.

Testing the ammunition magazine
While I initially suspected the ammunition magazines were the source of inaccuracy, one curious fact is that these are the same ones used by the Winchester M14 and they apparently work flawlessly in that gun. It got 14 out of 15 five-star reviews at Pyramyd Air. We’ll come back to the ammunition magazine in a moment, but suffice to say that I ended up testing 9 different ammo mags in each of 7 different CO2 clips and found no difference in their performance. None of the ammo mags were malfunctioning.

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle testing
Ammunition magazines and some CO2 clips ready for testing in the Winchester MP4. A few pellets, too — that’s coming in Part 4.

It’s the CO2 clip!
The CO2 clips proved to be another story. When they arrived from Daisy, they were all in excellent condition, but it was clear that two of them had been used. When I inquired, I was told that not enough new CO2 clips were available, so two units were pulled from returned MP4s. This is not encouraging, but they were much cheaper than expected, so I had no complaints. I marked all 7 of my CO2 clips and got ready to test the new arrivals. Clip 1 is the already-tested original that came with my rifle.

The first shot using clip 2 (the first of the 2 used clips) was a major flyer, zinging well off my point of aim. Not an auspicious start. Second shot, no pellet — just air (which I’ve been calling a misfire and one of the few ammo feed issues I’ve actually experienced up to this point). The third shot was my very first jam with this gun. The ammunition magazine would not eject from the CO2 clip, and I had to eject the CO2 clip itself to get the ammo mag loose.

I was especially careful to reseat the CO2 clip solidly for my next try. Fourth shot was another flyer but not quite as bad as the first. Fifth shot was another jam. This one was worse than the first, with the trigger jammed solid and the ammo mag again not ejecting. This time when I ejected the CO2 clip, the ammo mag actually stayed lodged inside the receiver!

It was suddenly clear what had happened — a pellet was jammed halfway between the ammo mag’s rotary cylinder and the barrel, locking the ammo mag in place. Fortunately, I had a plastic rod for clearing jams. Sure enough, I could feel the pellet slide back a little and then the ammo mag simply fell out of the gun.

When I examined the magazine, both the noses and skirts of several of the pellets showed visible deformation. This was the first time I’d really experienced the frustration of other MP4 buyers who had ended up returning their guns. I’d had enough — I was done testing clip 2! (Note that Daisy Customer Service replaced this clip with a brand new one at no charge.)

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle jammed ammo mag
The ammo mag was jammed in the gun, separate from the CO2 clip!

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle damaged pellets
This is what a bad CO2 clip does. This jam was so bad that the ammunition magazine remained lodged inside the receiver even after the CO2 clip was ejected. Note the damage to the two pellet skirts, especially the one on the right.

With no small amount of trepidation, I shot a full magazine using original clip 1, just to make sure my gun had not been damaged. Thankfully, everything was back to normal.

I was ready to test CO2 clip 3 — the other used one. Except for being a little tight in the receiver (something I’d also noted with my original clip), it performed flawlessly with all 9 ammunition magazines. I did have to push harder for the ammo mags to click into place, but that was all — and this actually smoothed out by the time I was finished testing. My experience was identical with the remaining brand-new CO2 clips 4 through 7. They varied in how tightly they fit into the receiver and how tightly ammunition magazines fit inside them, but they smoothed out with just a little use. And after hundreds of pellets, I had only a few misfires, which I subsequently decided were my own fault.

Here’s my important finding: The worst ammo feed problems are probably being caused by bad CO2 clips. Either the CO2 clip itself is not seating correctly within the receiver, or ammunition magazines are not seating correctly inside the CO2 clip. Either will cause the pellet not to line up with the barrel, resulting in a jam or misfire. This also explains why the identical ammunition magazine performs flawlessly in the Winchester M14 (where it locks directly into the receiver) but suddenly starts having problems in the MP4.

The obvious conclusion is that a replacement CO2 clip just might fix a misfiring MP4. If you order one directly from Daisy, try to make sure you’re getting a brand-new one, as these performed flawlessly – though I only had trouble with one of the two used clips. Note: To add to the nomenclature confusion, if you order this part from Daisy Customer Service, both they and the exploded parts diagram refer to the CO2 clip as the “Puncture Unit” (Part 79).

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle parts diagram
The Winchester MP4 exploded parts diagram. If you are ordering a replacement CO2 clip, it’s referred to as the “Puncture Unit” (Part 79).

We’ll take a minor detour as long as we have the MP4 parts diagram up. A number of reviews and blog comments describe the MP4 as a dressed-up Winchester M14. I initially thought otherwise, but the schematics prove me wrong. The barrel assembly and many other internal components appear identical. The CO2 clips share many parts as well. However, in the M14, the ammunition magazine slides freely through a hole in the CO2 clip and locks directly into the receiver. In the MP4, the ammo mag latches to the CO2 clip, which then latches into the receiver. As we’ve seen, having a middleman (the CO2 clip) between the ammo mag and the receiver is a potential problem. Besides the CO2 clip, the biggest differences between the M14 and the MP4 lie in the trigger mechanisms, receivers, and stocks and forearms.

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle M14 parts diagram
T
he Winchester M14 does, indeed, share many parts with the MP4.

 

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle M14 CO2 clip
These are Winchester M14 CO2 Clips. The ammunition magazine slides freely through a hole in the CO2 clip (circled) but does not click into it. Instead, the ammo mag locks directly into the receiver — no middleman here! An ammo mag is shown inserted into the hole in the clip on right. This CO2 clip can be misaligned with the M14’s receiver without affecting ammo mag alignment at all.

Back to the MP4. One Pyramyd Air review suggests that the ammo mag misalignment may be caused by CO2 pressure pushing the CO2 clip slightly out of position. This is certainly plausible and might also explain why this problem can worsen over time (as other reviews report) if increasing wear is occurring. If wear is occurring on the CO2 clip, a replacement CO2 clip could fix the problem. If wear is occurring inside the receiver — or should something actually be wrong with the receiver to begin with — then it’s time to contact the manufacturer or start picking out a new rifle.

I ended up content with the fact that one of my new CO2 clips was not working (again, Daisy Customer Service sent a free replacement). Otherwise, I would still be scratching my head about what could be causing the more severe ammo problems I’ve been reading about. The fortunate bottom line is that this provides a likely fix for people with MP4s that are misfiring or jamming. Order a replacement CO2 clip from Daisy or Winchester Customer Service and see if that doesn’t remedy the problem.

Eliminating minor misfires
Although I never experienced a major ammo problem or jam, except while testing CO2 clip 2, I was still having minor misfires (firing a blank or a skipped pellet left in the ammunition magazine when done shooting). This was occurring about once every one or two magazines (or once every 16 to 32 shots if you’re counting — roughly 5% of the time). I wanted to eliminate this if I could. When I contacted Daisy Customer Service to order the extra CO2 clips, I inquired about this. While the Daisy rep did not acknowledge a known ammo feed issue with the MP4, I not only received some suggestions over the phone, but a follow-up email with additional information, as well.

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle skipped pellet
Except for testing CO2 clip 2, all of my own ammo feed problems were limited to infrequent misfires (blank shots) and an occasional skipped pellet that remained in a supposedly empty ammunition magazine.

Daisy cautions that you should use good-fitting (tight) pellets and make sure they’re seated all the way. This will prevent pellets from backing out of the magazine (more specifically the rotary cylinder), causing a jam. I’ve been using a Pellet Pen with Pellet Seater for loading, and the advice makes sense. However, none of the pellets I tested were loose, and most actually fit quite tightly. Ironically, the only pellet that caused a problem was Winchester’s own hollowpoint, which stuck out the front of the cylinder (even when fully seated) just enough to interfere with the cylinder’s rotation. I simply pushed the pellet noses back in slightly and didn’t experience any misfires during subsequent accuracy testing.

Despite how tightly most pellets fit, however, if I pulled an ammo mag that still had pellets in it I sometimes noticed that pellets I had seated all the way into the cylinder were loose and pushed back a little. On one occasion, I actually had a loosened pellet fall backwards right out of the magazine. I could not determine what might actually be pushing pellets backwards in their cylinder cavities, but my first guess is that CO2 bypass somewhere must be exerting pressure on the front of the pellets. The gun’s mild recoil (or possibly the bolt recocking action) might be another possibility. Whatever the cause, once this happens previously stopper-tight pellets will slide easily in the cylinder. As far as I could determine, though, pellet fit was not a problem in my gun. And it was not the problem for Pyramyd Air reviewers who tried a range of pellets with all kinds of persistent problems, either – that was probably the CO2 clip.

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle loading pellets
I went to great lengths to load each pellet the same.

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle rotary cylinder
Use a pellet seater to seat pellets fully into the rotary cylinder. A very tiny ridge (arrow) stops the pellet skirt within each individual cylinder chamber.

Daisy’s other – and I think more relevant – suggestion was to shoot slower, allowing 3-5 seconds between shots to let the CO2 cartridges recover. My first thought was that this takes away a lot of the fun of a semi-auto. This specific feature was one of the reasons I’d purchased the MP4 to begin with. Of course, the first thing my wife did as soon as she got her hands on my new gun was see how fast she could make me work the reset cord on our knockdown target. Sure enough, she had a skipped pellet in the magazine following her quick-fire volley. That’s not quite fun.

My second thought, in the form of a tiny bell ringing in the back of my mind, was that during my chronograph tests when I was waiting a full minute between shots, I didn’t have a single misfire for almost 150 rounds. I thought this was an anomaly, but it wasn’t!

With this advice in hand, I continued my testing, making a point to take time to breathe several times between shots. Lo and behold, I went through nearly 600 pellets with only 4 misfires, and I believe I actually caused these. Two of the misfires were from shooting fast during some other testing, and the other two are discussed below. Slowing down my shooting has essentially eliminated all my misfires—though I’m not having quite as much fun with the semi-auto MP4 as I was before.

Now, as to those final two misfires. After ejecting a supposedly empty ammunition magazine and discovering a skipped pellet still present, I remembered that on one shot I’d partially depressed the trigger, run out of “breath” before I was ready to shoot and released the trigger for another try. When I later removed the CO2 clip, I inverted the gun and squinted down into the receiver. As I squeezed the trigger, sure enough, I saw the catch that indexes the rotary cylinder move. So, squeezing the trigger indexes the ammo mag cylinder, and I’d inadvertently rotated a pellet out of queue, causing a skipped pellet. This revelation occurred early in my latest round of testing, and I continued shooting with steady, deliberate trigger pulls after that (and tried to make sure I didn’t run out of “breath” again). This also means that you should fully release the trigger between shots, though this was not a problem for me as far as I could tell. More deliberate trigger work, along with slower pacing between shots, has resulted in no more misfires so far.

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle cylinder indexing
This rectangular catch (shown by the large arrow) just under the breech indexes the rotary cylinder on the ammunition magazine when the trigger is pulled. The inset photo and small arrow show the ratchet teeth on the rotary cylinder that the catch engages. A false start on a trigger pull can rotate the cylinder without actually firing, causing a pellet to be skipped in the firing sequence.

In summary, misaligned CO2 clips appear to be causing the most severe ammo feed problems in the Winchester MP4, and a replacement CO2 clip should get a malfunctioning MP4 working correctly. Tight-fitting pellets, slower shooting and more deliberate trigger pulls can eliminate minor misfires; but these require additional time and concentration and take some of the fun out of shooting this semi-auto. While I really like the Winchester MP4 and continue to enjoy shooting it, I’m having to jump through hoops to make it work properly, which is something prospective owners need to consider.

In Part 4, I’ll complete my accuracy testing (and finally break the half-inch barrier) and wrap up my evaluation.

80 thoughts on “Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle: Part 3

  1. BB, thanks for this extensive test. You have answered almost all of my questions regarding this gun and the M14. Does this mean that the MP4 co2 clip will not interchange with the M14 co2 clip? Thanks, Ed


  2. Hiveseeker,
    Congratulations on discovering the identities of this gun’s demons and effectively exorcising them! Genuine dedication pays off again. I noticed one of these in a pawnshop and had to see what it was The quadrail was loose on it and when I lifted it from the rack it rang like a bell, turning everyone’s eyes on me. I never even found a name before I put it back.It sounds like you’ve got quite an investment in yours and will be with it for the long haul. I hope you can enjoy it without any further difficulties for a long time.

    Reb


  3. Interesting exploration of the causes of the misfires and jams. The only airguns I’ve ever had similar problems were both Umarex revolver mechanism CO2 repeaters. The Colt 1911 had an indexing problem which only showed up in single action mode after I had owned it for nearly ten years. It worked fine in double action but quite often when I cocked the hammer with my thumb the pellet clip wouldn’t line up quite right with the barrel. Removing the clip you could see a semicircular dent of the face of the pellet where it was stopped by the hitting the breech instead of going straight down the barrel. I also have one of the old Umarex Walther Lever Actions (the one with two CO2 cartridges in a special holder) and it also very occasionally had the indexing problem but on that one I traced the fault to a worn clip. It also occasionally skips a pellet or two and sometimes runs out of CO2 very quickly. Makes me think that a seal may be going. I also received an almost unused Umarex Beretta (nickel, wood grips) as a gift from someone who lost interest in shooting it before they finished the first CO2 cartridge and that one has been flawless.

    Actually, for someone who’s not really into in to replicas, repeaters etc. I seem to have amassed a bit of a collection now that I come to think about it!


    • nowhere,

      I also have quite a few replica guns, including the Walther Lever Action rifle. I get close to 200 shots or so from a CO2 88 gram cylinder. I have no idea what you should get from two 12 gram but if your running out quickly your probably right about the seal(s).

      Most of my replicas are pistols. I pretty much gave up on buying them when all the new ones started being BB guns. I’m aware of the new Dan Wesson pellet pistols but I have read quite a few reviews that say those pistols are shooting about 100 fps slower than advertised which is way too slow.


  4. HiveSeeker
    And I thought I was the only one that went through all that crazyness to figure out what the problem is that a air gun is having.

    And if I remember right I suggested maybe trying the lead round balls since the gun calls for bb’s or pellets. I bet they would work good in the magazine. And maybe help with the accuracy. Or not. :)


    • Gunfun1, I agree that lead balls should be tried. Since there is no skirt to smash and they are round, they shouldn’t jam a easy.


    • Hello Gunfun1,
      I do recall your lead BB suggestion, but I wanted to concentrate on pellets for accuracy with the time I had available. Also, the steel BBs are held in the ammunition magazine by internal neodymium magnets, and I don’t know if lead BBs would remain tight in the rotary cylinder since the magnets obviously won’t work on them. I am hoping to try the lead BBs down the road, though.



      • HiveSeeker, yes the lead bbs (or most anyway) would stay. Unlike steel bbs, they are true 177 cal, not 175 or whatever. They are bigger to engage the rifling. Put it this way, when I try to use lead bbs in one of my pumpers (Daisy or Crosman) that shoot bbs, they get jammed up in the “magazine”. They are too big to load properly. Now they can be loaded single shot however. Thanks, Bradly


      • HS
        I have used the H&N lead balls in my 953 target pro in the 5 shot clips with good results. No falling out or jamming.

        Also got decent results at 25 yards. I think it was around 1.750”. And I do remember getitng some flyers when shooting also. Pellets do better in the gun though as far as accuracy and flyers are concerned.

        Anyway just a thought.


  5. Awesome job Hiveseeker! Although I am still not in the least bit interested in owning one of these things myself, your detailed research and excellent communications skills have still made this an enjoyable experience for me. This is steak and potatoes, not fluffy mousse that some who do reviews put out. I would read your blog.


    • I couldn’t agree more, with RR’s comments. I, too,, am not drawn to these types of airguns,, yet the writing and analytic approach held my interest, and mad me look forward to the next installment. Well done HiveSeeker.
      Ed


  6. Could rapid fire freeze the mags or at least cool them enough to contract the plastic and keep it from turning properly?
    When you shoot a CO2 gun fast the CO2 cartridge gets colder (think when you empty one by unscrewing it from the gun) and the mag is very close to it judging by the pics you provide.
    It would explain why the slow shooting get rid of the problem.

    I think it sucks that you can’t shoot the gun as fast as you like without feeding problems. It’s part of the fun of having a semi-auto gun!

    J-F


    • Thank you, all, for some very generous comments.

      J-F, the cold from repeat CO2 firing is a likely possibility for affecting ammo feeding, too. The owner’s manual warns about velocity loss and premature CO2 depletion by rapid firing, but I can see anything that might interfere with that rotary cylinder causing a problem as well. Good deducting.


  7. I’m impressed,I could do a painting of the gun or I could carve a stock for it but I would not have the patience to as he has for the detective work.Not really interested in the gun,but respect your pursuit until you nailed the issue.Good report!


  8. I agree with the above comments, BB! Your review/explorations/comments can save MP4 users a TON of frustration and get them on the path of having lots of fun, and likely avoid having many of them returned for failure to perform…



    • Thanks, Barrika.

      My main goal for Part 3 is to help fellow and prospective MP4 owners get their guns functioning correctly. I really like this rifle despite its foibles, and if I can contribute to others feeling the same–rather than frustrated–then that’s enough for me.


  9. HiveSeeker,

    A very nice and detailed writeup; you must have great patience to work through the misfeed problems.

    Excellent macro photography, too. That last pic of the magazine well is not an easy one – everything is well-lit and in focus.

    Paul in Liberty County



      • BB,

        Well, I really have your photography blogs to thank for that, both the archived series and your recent re-treatment. I’m still waiting on upcoming blogs in your updated series (and a photo of your lighting setup), but I went ahead and bought a 1200-Watt studio lighting kit. I was absolutely amazed at how much difference proper lighting makes! (Which, yes, is exactly what you said.) Including Photoshop time, the photos for Part 3 and Part 4 with the new lighting took about a quarter of the time (and very little Photoshop work) compared to the photos for Part 1 and Part 2. I wondered if anyone would notice! I just used my iPhone camera which is actually pretty good, and does well for close-up work too.

        I’ll let BB make some better-informed studio lighting recommendations, but on my very limited budget I got a 4, 85-Watt bulb setup for under $100 and still wish it was even brighter.


  10. Excellent review, HiveSeeker. It was well written, very informative and was illustrated with really good photography. I enjoyed reading it.


  11. HiveSeeker,

    Excellent report! I enjoyed reading your detailed analysis of the problem. I’m looking forward to your tips to improve accuracy at 10 yards or 10 meters.



  12. Hiveseeker,

    I’ve had no jams or feeding problems with mine, although I have no extra clips, so maybe I just got lucky. I do find that I shoot mine pretty quickly, plinking with it and not being too concerned about it being a target shooting gun.

    Good report!

    Michael


  13. Nicely done, HiveSeeker!

    Nice addition with those exploded drawings. I alwaysseem to be looking for the on the web for each of my guns…

    BTW, your shooting table is so nicely organized that it shows evidence of you having some sort of OCD. Want to do my garage and basement?….. ;-)

    /Dave


  14. This is off topic of today’s topic but it is air gun related.

    My wife’s brother and his family have been up from Texas visiting. Me and him use to hunt and shoot together when we were younger. He still shoots but strictly firearms now. But we shot air guns when we were kids run’n around together.

    So I have been tell’n him about the air guns I got. He finally was able to come over this morning and I let him try them out. He liked the HW50s and commented on how nice the wood was and how smooth and accurate it shot and how well it was built. He also asked me what the (M) stood for on the stock on each side of where you put your trigger hand. I told him I didn’t know but I would find out and let him know.

    He liked the Hatsan QE and the metal clip repeater design and how quiet it was and how well it shot. Then shot the Marauders. He liked how quiet they were and how well they shot. But he totally liked the .25 Mrod the best out of both of the Mrods that he just shot. He totally liked the way the .25 smacked the still spinners and the idea of it being a bigger cal.

    But he was most impressed with the FX Monsoon. He was amazed at how fast you could pull the trigger and no mis-fires like on the old .22 cal. rimfires we use to shoot when we were kids. And was surprised that it ran off of the air reservoir (or its own air supply as he stated it) and how accurate it was also. His comment was I wish they had this gun available when we were kids. I said yea but we probably would of never been able to afford it; we would of had to sell every dirt bike we owned to get one. Then I told him how much it was. He thought it was high but said the quality and accuracy and fun is definitely making up for the cost of the gun.

    And he did like the Hawke sidewinder scopes and the Leapers Golden image scope on the HW.

    Oh and I forgot about the 2240. He said ain’t this the gun you were putting together the last time we were up visiting. I said yep but now it runs on 2000 psi air pressure instead of Co2. Told him some details about the gun and he shot it and liked it alot. He said he is going to put one together for around his house. Hes got a little bit of ground but just doesn’t fill comfortable shooting the high power firearms around there. So he says he’s going to start with one of the 2240 conversions and get him a hand pump. I told him before you know it you will have more air guns. (he’s crazy about firearms) So I’m interested to see if he gets the air gun bug again.

    But sorry for the off topic. And I have been waiting for a while for him to come up so he could try out my air guns. I think I got him inspired to get back into the air guns. And I did show him the PA catalog and it went with him when he left to go back to Texas after we got through shooting this morning. Will see how that goes.


    • Gunfun1,

      I can’t remember if you have ever talked about the accuracy of your modified 2240 but I would be curious to know what size groups you are getting, especially at 25 to 35 yards. I do very little 10 yard shooting except with pistols so that doesn’t interest me much with the carbine size 2240. Will you please tell me what kind of groups you are getting with this gun? Thanks.

      G&G


      • G&G,
        He and Buldawg been talkin’ up a storm on the last 2240 blog ever since it was posted.You’ll probably find everything you’re looking for there.

        Reb



          • Gunfun1,
            Yeah, I been waiting for him to pop in so I could bounce a couple ideas off him. I was wondering how long it would be until you guys would make it to the current blog.Welcome back! Hope he’s just out shooting or maybe he got lucky and is on a hunt.

            Reb


            • Reb
              I have been making some one liners.

              Its been buisy for me lately with getting the kids ready to go back to school and my wifes brother and family up from Texas. Today was the first day we finally got time to shoot together. And they have been here since the end of last week.

              It should get back to normal for me soon.Whatever normal may be. :)



      • G&G
        I have my maintargets set up at 50yrds.

        I can hit a 1.5” spinner at 50yrds. about 8 out of 10 times. On paper the best group of 5 shots was a little under one inch. But the gun averages about 1.400” group most of the time. And the groups do tighten up as the distance gets closer.

        Oh and of course thats bench resting.


    • Gunfun1,good going and I only get the chance to do that not very often but I love to show my few airguns and more then that I love to show what they can do but only if I think they will “get it”.Today I put the Hawk Sidewinder on the TalonP -w- 24” barrel and you would not believe the tight pattern at 50 yrds.I love that little zero on top of the cross hairs of the Hawk.That is my cross hair instead of the cross hairs that you should use below the little circle.I never have the need to hold under so I use the circle.Would ya believe around a 1/2” at 50 yrds with the 25 cal.That 24” barrel will do it and the pellets are still bursting into fragments at that distance.They only start to stay together around 75 yrds. and pancake to about 9mm with hitting the still catch plate behind my target holder.And I took your advice and tighten up that screw on the Mrod bolt while I had the scope off and it snugged the action up so its not so sloppy.


      • steve
        Its been a bit since they came up. But me and him talk all the time. He showed me a picture of a wild hog he just got with his .17hmr. It was a ear shot at 45 yrds. 170lbs. and dropped him on the spot.

        But he has been wanting to shoot the FX Monsoon from the time told I him I got it. He actually wants to buy it from me. Will see.

        But glad you got your bolt tightened up on your Mrod. And there aint nothing like a hard hitting .25 cal. air gun thats for sure. And I picked up a flatened out .25 cal. pellet that I bet was .750” in dia. after hitting my spinner at 50 yards. You gotta love it.


    • The “m” in the circle is the logo of an Italian company called Minelli. They make stocks for Weihrauch and Air arms. And probably several other air gun manufacturers.



    • GunFun1,
      After following your comments for the last month about the HW50S, I ordered one. Got it about a week ago and It’s a keeper. I’ve put about 500 pellets through it so far and I’m very happy. All the shots have been with open sights since I don’t have an extra scope sitting around. Any suggestions on a quality scope that will compliment this rifle ?
      Thank you,
      Randy


      • Randy
        Thats great you got one. And I’m sure glad you like it since you went buy the results I have had with my HW50s. They are for sure cool little springer’s. I have wanted one since I was a kid.

        What caliber did you get?

        And scopes. Well I have tryed a few different brands and had good luck pretty much with all. But I keep favoring the Hawke scopes pretty much anymore. Here is the 2 different ones I have been getting. I mostly like them because they are side wheel parallax scopes and the half mil dot reticles. You can get pretty precise with them. And the Hawke web site has the Chairgun program that is air gun specific for trajectory’s. Its kind of a neat little reference tool to use. And the scopes are fair priced for how clear and sharp the sight picture is.

        But here’s the 2 I like and use.
        http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Hawke_Optics_2_5_10x44_AO_Varmint_Rifle_Scope_1_2_Mil_Dot_Reticle_1_4_MOA_1_Tube/4430

        http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Hawke_Optics_3_12x44_AO_Varmint_Rifle_Scope_1_2_Mil_Dot_Reticle_1_4_MOA_1_Tube/4431

        But here is the scope that is on my HW50s right now basically because I had it and they are very sharp and clear scopes for the 49.00 dollar price tag. And the other reason its on there is because my Hawke scope went on my Hatsan QE. Its going to get shot out at farther distances then my HW50s. Here is that scope.

        http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Leapers_Golden_Image_4x32_Rifle_Scope_Mil_Dot_Reticle_1_4_MOA_1_Tube_Weaver_Rings/2980


        • Gunfun1,
          I got the .177 cal. Didn’t need another .22 yet, but will probably breakdown and order one over the next year. My girlfriend says I have an addiction and need to find a 12 step program, so I’m looking into programs that require me get a new rifle with each step.
          I’ve been thinking about Hawk scopes. I plan to read through the links you sent during lunch today.
          Have a great weekend!
          Randy


          • Randy
            I think I have the same addiction you have, or obsession or whatever you want to call it.

            What are you using your gun for. Mine is mostly for plinkining and target practice. And one of the other reasons I got mine was. If I ran the air down on my buddy bottle for my PCP guns I could have something to keep shooting with while the bottle is filling back up. You don’t have to worry about filling a springer you know. :)

            And let me know what you think about those scopes. And check out the Chairgun program on the Hawke website if you get a chance. If you haven’t already. Pretty cool stuff.


            • Mostly target shooting.
              I’ve turned my back property into a shooting range. Multiple target types are set up from 10 feet to 100 yards. Enough to shoot at that it never gets boring. I’ve got paper, shoot-n-c, spinners, can holders, animal crackers, paint balls and some moving targets powered by an old electric fan motor with rope and pulleys.
              I’ve had a lot of fun thinking up and building targets.


              • Randy
                Sounds like you got a nice shooting range set up.

                Let me know if you end up getting a scope for your HW50s. I would like to know what you think about the gun and the scope after you get one.


  15. HiveSeeker,
    You could work at one of my problem-solving groups here in the factory I work for! Great investigation!
    Let me comment that, from my perspective, it seems to be a quality control issue with the “CO2 Clip”. Or maybe the tolerances specified didn’t take all the elements in consideration and are allowing for slight movements during the shot cycle. They are definitely not the same from part to part.
    Also, regarding the magazine failures you describe, maybe the polymer used should be reinforced (with fiberglass, or any mineral content) and this may help it to keep the dimensional stability required to maintain reliable feeding no matter the rate of fire. I am only assuming things here, as I am not seeing the part myself.


    • Fred_BR,

      I don’t think it takes much misalignment to cause jams. Daisy informed me that the used CO2 clips they shipped (including Clip #2 that finally clued me in on what is probably causing so many problems) were tested before they shipped. So, tolerances are critical enough that a worn clip that functions in one MP4 might not in another.

      I suspect it might be cost-prohibitive to reinforce the ammo magazine or the CO2 clip, although reinforcing the rotary cylinder might improve this gun’s accuracy (you are hinting at something I’ll cover in Part 4).


  16. HiveSeeker, Very very well written. So detailed and excellent pictures. Nice work! Now, you’ve said a lot about the Winchester M14. Do you also have this rifle? If so…maybe a report on it too? I know BB has already done one, but two can never hurt. Thanks again for the report and looking forward to Pt 4. Bradly


    • Bradly,

      I don’t own a Winchester M14, although investigating the ammo feed problem in the MP4 led to a lot of research on the M14 because it uses the same ammo mag. Shooters that don’t mind a plastic stock seem to really like this gun, and it’s reliable with none of the MP4′s problems. I would be more interested in owning this rifle if it could be scoped, but it can’t. On a side note, I ended up with those M14 CO2 clips in the photo entirely by accident, but being able to examine them really helped confirm what I found out about the MP4′s CO2 clip.

      To answer your question, though, thank you for the vote of confidence on an added M14 blog. However, BB does the most thorough airgun reviews anywhere and anything more would be a footnote to that.


  17. HiveSeeker,

    I just want to compliment you on an excellent report. It certainly seems as though you have identified the source of the problem. Although, it doesn’t seem like you have experienced the issue as much as others have. I can’t remember which guns they are right off hand but I have a couple that use this type of magazine and pellet jamming has not been an issue which further backs up your conclusion that the “puncture unit” is the problem. Good job.

    G&G


  18. Hiveseeker, I’m encouraged at how you work through your jamming problems. We’ll see if I have the same luck with my M1. I must say that I was very impressed with shooting the M4 firearm which functioned flawlessly for 100 shots in rapid succession.

    I had an interesting development of my own. I’m loading up for a big extravaganza on Saturday to solve my M1 problems and made a discovery. I use the small Lee hand balance which has a small slide on the right for adjusting 1/10 of a grain. I had been zeroing the balance by pushing the slide all the way to the right and assuming that was the zero setting. Now, I see that this is not true. The slide moves a fair amount, what looks like a 1/10 grain or two worth, to the left before reaching zero. So have my loads been off the whole time? By how much and high or low? Maybe this invalidates all of my other results. Aaaah. Now, I find that my 64 rounds divided into four loads of two clips each is not enough to cover the possibilities. As I try to figure out the loads, I feel like a card player trying to play the odds.

    Mike, thanks for the video. A pleasure to see you shoot. That sure is a target-rich environment. Does someone have to set up all that stuff or does it operate with a string? The period costumes add a lot. Have you perfected the “hypnotically cold stare” of Wild Bill Hickok? I guess that is easier to cultivate when someone is shooting at you. Having your man-to-man contest by both shooting downrange is the way to go. It looks like you won. Here’s an idea I have about the old sixgun design that I believe is totally original! While the single shot revolver had revolutionary firepower for its time, it now seems cumbersome to load (and extract). I imagine even in the old days, there was always value in loading as fast as possible. In shooting bolt-action rifles, I’ve discovered that one can load quite quickly by hand. I grab five cartridges in my right hand so that they are lying flat on my palm with the bullets pointed at the outside edge of my hand and the primer end on the thumb side, and I wrap my thumb around them to keep them in place. Then, I’m able to press and load one into the breech by using my forefinger. By working the fingers against the thumb it’s possible to roll the next cartridge into position and repeat so that it is almost as fast as using a stripper clip. The question is whether someone has figured out something comparable for loading a sixgun?! Using one hand, you hold the gun and extract the case, and with the other slide in the new round before rotating the cylinder for the next chamber. It would be a little complicated, but with the manual dexterity people developed with the single-action, you would think they could do this too. :-) I think Clint Eastwood does a speed reload at the end of a Fistful of Dollars but it is only with one round, and I can’t figure out what he was doing spinning the cylinder as he did.

    Bear, thanks for the info. So the Bear equipment is as good as I thought. The instinct shooting with archery sounds wonderful, but I expect that the rest of my life would be only enough to scratch the surface.

    ZimbabweEd, the earlier versions of the biathlon sound pretty close to their military origins. I can remember when the athletes from the Soviet Union clobbered everyone else in this sport. It wasn’t even close. And kind of ironic too since they took a serious drubbing from Finnish soldiers using skiis in the Winter War. Well, even the Romans knew how to learn from the enemies, and the Soviets obviously did very well.

    The reduction of range and caliber for shooting is part of a larger question I had about why they don’t have high caliber shooting at the Olympics. Since the Olympics are supposed to be the ultimate, you would think this would be natural. Even archery shoots at 90 meters I believe which is more than smallbore. I suspect that the answer is to increase the level of competition. It’s a lot easier and cheaper to train with smaller guns and ranges and you will get a larger field of competitors. It could be that the introduction of women played a role in the decision although I doubt that would really make a difference. The women who ski at an Olympic level in the biathlon would leave 90% of men behind in just about any test of fitness and strength, and I don’t think that high-powered guns would be a problem for them at all.

    Matt61


    • The range is set up the day before the match. A number of us show up and assist. We have a Quad and a trailer to move the targets. What you saw was only one stage event. There were four others.
      At the end of day two, everyone there pitches in and in about 45 minutes, everything is broken down and put away. It’s great fun. This year the shoot will be on September 20 and 21.

      Yes, reloading a single action revolver is slow. If a fast reload is needed, you pull a second gun. I haven’t mastered a hypnotically cold stare. I just focus on what I have to do and don’t think about the other guy. Here’s a tip, pay extra attention to the first target you shoot and the last one. Those are the ones you tend shoot too fast on. If you watch the video, you will notice that the last rifle target I shoot before the reload, is a bit slower than the others. That’s why.

      Yes, I won that one. :)

      Mike


    • One other thing you asked. The reset of target is all by hand. But, with three people, it only takes about two minutes. It takes about that long to get the next two shooters ready anyway.

      Mike





  19. Gunfun & Reb
    I am still out here, just been busy with the wife not feeling well and having the scope down her throat today. The doc said he could not find any thing wrong so now its on to an ENT specialist, she hurts in the middle of her throat between the mouth and stomach when she eats and swallows so that has kept me occupied.

    Gunfun, glad you got your brother in law shooting your air guns, it sounds like he may be bitten with the bug. The 2240 conversation is a good place to start out at that’s for sure. I have both of my 2240s torn apart and my 2289 apart also, just waiting for the hi-pac kits to get here. When you ordered yours did the tracking just show that it was shipped without any real updates as to where it was or a delivery date. All the tracking email I got states that it was shipped on the 6th and gives no delivery date. I have a couple other little pieces coming also for them and ordered a 177 steel breech and two 2250 forearms today to put my 177 together with and be able to put forearms on both of them. Still got to go and machine my 853 barrel to fit the steel breach. So just waiting to get all the parts to begin working on them again.

    Got my extra hatsan mag, JSB 15.89gr pellets and the TF -90 dot sight yesterday. Have not had time to do any shooting with the JSB yet and I am trying to decide which gun to put the TF-90 on.

    Reb
    I am still reading the post just have not had time to reply till now so if you want to run those questions by me I will be up for awhile tonight and will get back on in the AM. It been hot her this week also, I think you sent it this way as it was at 99 degrees here today with 90% humidity. Just to hot to do anything outside.

    It just been a crazy week so far with trying to figure out what is wrong with the wife, got another doc appointment tomorrow for the both of us and then another one next weds with the ENT doc. She has lost 10 pounds in the last week because it hurt to swallow so much and she is only 115 soaking wet so 10 pounds on her is like 30 on me.

    When did the posting change to where you have to put your name, email and answer a math question start, I guess they have gotten some automated post or something.

    Buldawg


    • buldawg
      Its been a little while now from the time I got my hi-pac’s. And I think I remember the tracking to be not so good. Mine came in the mail. And I think I got mine within around 3 days if I remember right from when I ordered. I think the package arrived then the tracking up dated or something like that.

      And I’m pretty sure my brother in law is getting a 2240 and all the goodies to make a Disco barreled Hipac rifle. He copied down part numbers from me and website addresses to order all the stuff. So will see how it goes. If he builds one I will give a update on what he thinks.

      And when you get the chance let me know how the 15.89′s do for you. And where that red dot ends up.

      Also it sounds like your wife may have something like I had about 20 or so years ago. I forgot what they called it. I think polyps. They gave me a i-v and knocked me out then went down my throat and cut them out some way. It was making it hard to swallow food. It would try to get stuck. And from me like trying to burp it back up I was getting acid reflux and it was burning my esophagus. After they cut them out and I took some anti-biotics I never had any more problems.

      And got to get the kids school stuff finished up tomorrow. And then got to go in to work tomorrow after that. So no shoot’n for me tomorrow unless I sneak a few shots in with the HW50s. But I will be off the weekend so I will be catching back up on my shooting for sure. Let me know how things go.


      • Gunfun
        I hope to get mine today or tomorrow so I can get the 22 one put together and then start on the 177 with the barrel work that has to be done. Sounds like you got the brother in law hooked now also.

        I will let you know how the JSBs do and what I decide to put the red dot on, its either going to be the 2240 22 cal or my 60C just got to get all my projects done first then I will figure it out.

        The doc said everything done here throat look ok, no polyups or inflammation, has a small hiatal hernia but it was not inflamed either, so got to go to ENT to get second opinion. She has no heart burn or acid reflux and has been on antibiotics for two weeks with no relief. Its got to be something else, just hope we find it soon as she is losing weight fast, it will be another day or two and she will be under 100 pounds.

        Good luck with school stuff, I am glad we don’t have that to worry about any more now it the kids problem with the grand kids.

        Got to go know but will keep you updated as I can.

        Buldawg


        • buldawg
          Hope they get that figured out with your wife.

          And on the way to work right now but let me know if you get your hi-pac today.


          • Gunfun
            Yea I hope we get it figured out soon because she is losing to much weight to fast.

            I will let you know if I get my hi-pac today .

            Buldawg


  20. Buldawg,
    Once you build your WordPress profile you don’t have to answer math problems to submit your comment anymore so I don’t see them but maybe once a month or so. That’s how you get to put an avatar up( like my flags).The first part’s real easy but the avatar part took me a while. Go up to where it says Howdy and start on it. It’s a whole lot nicer once you don’t have to answer those math problems anymore!
    I gotta guy wanting me to do the brakes on his ’68 Chevy truck now.I don’t know about that with less than 2 hands but it would be nice to have the money.I told him it would take at least a day per axle and he said that would be alright.If I do it,it ain’t gonna be cheap!

    Reb


    • Reb
      I was not logged in is why it ask me those questions, I thought I had but its been crazy here the last few days so who knows. I will try to put my avatar up , I never knew how so I will check it out.

      On those rear brakes on a 68 chevy are some of the easiest to do if you have the tools to get the springs on and off and the tool to depress the shoe hold down springs. The rest is the good old drum brakes like all the old chevys had, but with only one good hand it will be hard for anyone to do and if the heat is still up in the high 90s like it is here it would take several hours to two days for me also because I get short winded in the heat.

      Just take your time and don’t let those springs bite you when they jump off coming loose. I charge 50 buck an hour for car work, the dealers around here are at 100 bucks an hour so if they think 50 an hour is to, much they can go pay the 100 to some one else. They are paying me for what I know how to do from 45 years of experience and not for what I actually do and for the 100,000 dollars in tools I have to make doing the jobs easier and correctly the first time.

      Buldawg


  21. I had been liking this gun and considered it for an AR trainer since I can’t get to the range as much as I’d like and ammo is expensive. But seeing the feed issues which I consider a serious problem and the fact Daisy (not my favorite airgun company) is using parts of scrapped guns in new ones, Now I’m looking at other brands. I know Steel force fires bb’s but I haven’t heard of any issues with that one and I can send it to drozdmax and have it rocking full auto. However, tell me this gun can be converted to high pressure air and I might change my mind a bit. I wouldn’t mind a tank on a remote cord cranking up the power.


    • John,

      If you happen to get a “lemon” MP4 there’s an excellent chance you’ll be able to correct that with a fairly inexpensive replacement CO2 clip from Daisy. Otherwise, Pyramyd Air’s return policy is outstanding.

      Daisy is not putting used parts in new product–they just included a couple lightly used clips in my order because they didn’t have enough new ones, and replaced the bad clip immediately free of charge when I told them about it.

      I haven’t seen a conversion to air on the MP4 anywhere–that would be an interesting mod, for sure.

      Hope this helps.


  22. Winchester M14 air rifle.. If you really want a scope or a rail on your rifle purchase the spring “AIRSOFT” version with the full length top rail on it, very cheep and usually comes with an “Imitation” scope of sorts and a plastic laser. CAREFULLY file off the fwd bottom portion of the plastic upper barrel cover enough to receive the retaining lands of the plastic Airsoft rail assembly (File too much off and the rail will be lose) and use a screw or whatever to retain the rear. Add an M14 weaver rail to the receiver clip guide (Shims?) and there you have it. Add a nice fabric mag pouch to the stock for looks. May also need to file away some plastic from the rail for a better fit, been a while. Its not a perfect “set up”, everything is plastic and may move around a little, but this is a plinker ….. and it looks great !!


    • PS: The Airsoft M14 tri-rail I used on the Winchester M14 was from the TSD model and the price has actually gone up quite a bit, however….It is a great spring airsoft rifle itself and is still complete without the 3-way rail. Actually built better than the Winchester, in my opinion. It has hefty metal weights in the stock !


      • Thanks for the input, Max Firepower.

        I have several airsoft guns, but am primarily interested in military pellet rifles due to the better accuracy–though the MP4 disappoints some in this regard.


        • Evidently we have the same tastes, amazing what you can do when you combine Airsoft with Airguns. You would probably get a kick out of my ‘M10249′ and Morph-3X with a quad rail, bipod, folding fwd grip, barrel mounted tri rail with folding sights and a TF 90 red dot sight….Yes that is a Crosmam 1077 and a downsized Airsoft M249. Looks like the manufactures are leaning in that direction too. I’m retired military, but I imagine there are a lot of people who would enjoy having airgun copies of their favorite military game weapons for some serious plinking. Probably why Airsoft became so popular.


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