by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This Diana model 5 air pistol is marked as a Winchester model 353.
This report covers:
- The test
- Hobbys
- A couple observations
- Air Arms Falcon
- Crosman Premier lites
- Qiang Yuan Training pellets
- Summary
Today is accuracy day for the Diana model 5 air pistol I’m testing, which is labeled a Winchester 353. We heard from several owners who like their pistols, so let’s see what this one can do.
The test
To get right into it, I didn’t know where the sights were adjusted. You may remember I mentioned that the rear sight was adjusted all the way over to the right. I decided to shoot the first group as the gun was set up. After that I could adjust the sights. All shooting was done from 10 meters with a 2-hand hold and my arms rested on a sandbag. I used a 6 o’clock hold.
Hobbys
The first target was shot with RWS Hobby pellets. They fit the breech tight, with the skirts not entering the barrel completely. They hit the target high and to the right. That told me that the rear sight is adjusted too far to the right.
Ten Hobbys went into a vertical group that measures 1.635-inches between centers. I didn’t know what to expect from this pistol, but this is a larger group than I imagined.
Ten RWS Hobbys made this 1.635-inch group at 10 meters when shot from the Diana model 5 pistol. There is a hole in the bull at the bottom (arrow).
A couple observations
First, the trigger is very light. It doesn’t stop at the second stage, so when you’re on it expect the gun to fire at any time.
I was able to adjust the rear sight to the left, but it was already set as low as it would go. So I had to live with where it impacted the target.
The front sight is a tapered post. It’s not ideal for precision shooting and I’m sure some of the openness of the groups is due to that. The rear notch is square and screams for a square front post.
Air Arms Falcon
The second pellet I tried was the Air Arms Falcon. These struck the target just left of center, but were still too high. They made a group that measures 1.399-inches between centers.
Ten Air Arms Falcon pellets went into 1.399-inches at 10 meters.
Falcons fit the breech loose, but not so loose that they presented a problem. I rather enjoyed loading them.
Crosman Premier lites
Next up were Crosman Premier 7.9-grain domed pellets. These fit the breech snug, but they loaded easily. I had high hopes for them and they didn’t disappoint. First of all, they went to the exact center of the bull. And they struck much lower, with at least 5 of them landing in the 9- and 10-rings. Nine of the pellets landed in a 1.276-inch group, but a stray shot opened that to 2.203-inches. I believe that shot was caused by an aiming error and is not representative of the accuracy of this pellet. Although this was the largest group, I do believe this is the best pellet I tested.
Premier lites were well-centered and made a 2.203-inch group. Nine went into 1.276-inches, which is more representative, I believe.
Qiang Yuan Training pellets
The final pellet I tested was the Qiang Yuan Training pellet. I expected great things from this pellet, but it didn’t perform up to my expectations. Ten pellets went into 1.773-inches at 10 meters. This pellet fit the breech the loosest of all 4 that were tested.
Qiang Yuan Training pellets didn’t do as well as I expected. Ten went into 1.773-inches at 10 meters.
Summary
Well, what do I think of the Diana model 5? For starters, I was surprised that it didn’t shoot better. I know it’s not a target pistol, but in light of what the BSA Scorpion pistol was able to do a couple years ago, I expected better.
I think Diana missed the mark with the sights they put on this pistol. Or, more correctly, Winchester missed it by not specifying a better front sight.
The funny thing is, the model 5’s brother, the Diana model 6, is very accurate. And the model 10 target pistol is a flyswatter! Maybe because the 5 recoils it’s just too much to handle.
Matt 61 and anyone interested in M1 Garand rifles—Out of topic , but I have found a very interesting and informative site. It is called the Garand Collectors Assn–(GCA). It features a formerly top secret report on the use of infantry weapons in Korea. The parts relating to the malfunctions of the M1 in combat, and the use of the bayonet are eye opening! Please let me know what you think of this report. —–Ed
B.B., when you set out to test an airgun, do you…
1. have a “go to” lineup of pellets to try?
2. tailor the pellets used in the test to what your experience dictates should work?
3. use what you happen to have on hand that day?
4. or none of the above?
Is there a .177 pellet that you just could not see doing without?
If you had to make do with just three or less different .177 pellets, what would they be?
Cobalt327,
1. Yes. I have a lineup of premium pellets that I consider for each test. I typically do not use inferior or discount store pellets, because I cannot trust the results they give.
2. Again yes. I try to select pellets of a shape and weight to match the airgun I’m testing. To give more specifics would entail a whole blog, or more. I’m adding it to my list for road trips.
3. I try to never do that.
4. NA
Crosman Premiers, H&N Baracudas, Most JSB pellets and their derivatives made for other brands.
B.B.
Do you find that pellet weight or head diameter had a larger influence on accuracy and precision?
… Or too many variables on the gun to make one facet stand out over the other
Belgrath04,
These factors can indeed have an affect. I had a Gamo CFX that had as it’s favorite pellet the H&N Field Target Trophy in 4.52mm branded tin. It would produce a group that could literally be covered with a dime at 25 yards. If I used the 4.51mm branded tin the groups would open to about a quarter.
I really appreciate PA Stocking .22 H&N Baracudas in 200 count tins.
Though I wish they could do the same for the lighter weight Field Target Trophy as the Baracudas are awful heavy for most springers.
When you are buying 3+ tins from multiple manufacturers, trying to find the perfect match, having smaller count tins at lower prices lets me buy more varieties.
I recently tried H&N Field Target in my Webley and found them to be THE pellet for it. Now PA does not stock them in .22 so I have to buy them elsewhere. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
Belgrath04,
Too many variables for the little testing I did. I though pellet fit might be a factor, but I can’t support that idea.
B.B.
Much appreciated, look forward to a future blog entry on this subject.
BB,
I am a bit amazed that the Diana did not perform. Over here in Europe it is seen as a gun to have with a reputation for hitting where you aim at. Maybe you have to test a second one.
As we are into the classic guns I have an off-topic question:
Does anyone know how the original box of the FWB 150 T was sold looked like? I can not find any clue. I bought one recently in its box with all the paperwork (shooting card, manual & folder), but it is a plain cardboard box with only on the small side a label saying Feinwerkbau 150 and the factory logo. Originally the box was closed with linen adhesive with the FWB logo on it.
Even for FWB that box looks a bit simple.
My 150 came with open sights, the diopter was an extra. The original owner bought that also but it looks that he never used it, it is still in its plastic foam box with FWB logo.
Did FWB make a bore cleaner? There is a period piece included with a set of brushes which can be screwed on top of the copper rod.
Regards,
August
August,
I have no clue as to whether that is the original box, but that sounds like an awesome score you have made. I guess part of the score is supposed to be the original box. If my memory serves me correct, my FWB601 I had a while back came in a similar box. Whether it was original, I have no idea.
Personally, I try to stay away from the deals in their original boxes. That adds a considerable cost that I am unwilling to pay. I want to shoot it, not just look at it. Just my thing.
August,
From your description,.. it sounds to me that IS the factory box. You are lucky to have received all of the stuff with it. My TX200 came in a plain cardboard box. Minimal marking, sticker on the end. The box is tapered. The muzzle end is smaller than the butt end,.. so I guess that you could say that it is a “custom” factory box.
I don’t know,… maybe some makers figure it is better to spend the box money else ware, like on making a quality air rifle.
Chris
August,
This is why I test the way that I do. You don’t like the results, but you know the rigor I used to get them. That way we all know what has been done. Other than the fact that I am human, I have tried to make these tests as similar as they can be.
In my experience, all FWB boxes are plain cardboard with rigid white foam interiors.
I never heard of FWB making a bore cleaner, but they did put out a paste grease called Lubriplate years ago. They didn’t make it — they just included it with all their airguns, which is an endorsement.
B.B.
B.B.
My FWB 100 had white grease on the cocking arm and piston when I got it and I presumed that it was Lubriplate.
When I got my FWB 603 there was a 4g tube of Feinwerkbau “Special Grease” with the rifle. By feel and smell I believe that they are the same product – do you know it they are?
Hank
Hank,
Very likely. They have been supplying that “Special Grease” for quite some time. I have a tube that came with my FWB 601. The rifle is gone, but I still have the grease. I need something to use it on. 😉
RR
LOL! Now that is a subtle hint… nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what I mean eh?
You had a 601 and sold it???? My 603 is a permanent resident – if would have to be a MAJOR amount of money to get me to even consider selling it. Before I got my 300SU I considered mounting a scope and making sport stock for it. I recently refinished the red/green/blue laminated “Christmas” stock and she is looking rite fine – and boy, does she ever cook!!
Happy Friday!
Hank
Hank,
“Christmas” themed huh? Be sure to send a pic of that. You have to watch that Ol’ Ridge Runner,… he comes off with this “ploy” of running a “foster” home for “wayward” and “orphaned” air guns. I am pretty sure it is all a ruse,… but I have yet to catch him yet. 🙂 and a 😉
Chris,
Yeah – the FWB 603 laminated stocks look very “Christmasy” with the green and red laminations being most noticeable. I took me a while to get used to the stock but hey, the way the rifle shoots I could care less if the stock was hot pink with purple dots.
RidgeRunner is making eyes at my FWB 100 – I promised him that he would be first to hear if I decide to sell her. (Hope he is not holding his breath 🙂 )
Hank,
I bought the short loading gate for mine and mounted a 3-9×40 BSA on it to see what it would do at longer ranges. What I found was it lacked the power to have any real accuracy at the longer ranges. I must have tried over a dozen different pellets at 25 yards. I was shooting from the prone position with the rifle sand bagged and the only part of the rifle I touched was the trigger. About the best group I shot was around one inch. At 50 yards the groups really opened up.
They are awesome 10 meter rifles, but I was wanting something with more legs.
RR,
If I remember correctly, my 603 is shooting around 560 fps with SCHaK wad-cutters. Figured that a light alloy domed pellet might do ok to 15-20 yards in calm conditions.
I am guessing that the accuracy issues you saw were related to pellet stability. Wouldn’t be surprised if the power-plant, length of barrel and rifling twist were highly optimized for 10 meters. Read of people who tried to increase the power of the 600 rifles but they didn’t have much joy.
My 603 sees most of its use in the winter punching paper. I can just manage a 10 meter shooting lane in the basement.
Agreed, Feinwerkbau makes some awesome 10 meter rifles. Their triggers are incredible!
My 300SU is shooting 656 fps (with JSB 8.44s) and is my favorite for plinking, sniping and pest control. Shooting tent-caterpillars off the branches is great fun 🙂
Happy April fools – Mother Nature blessed us with 2 inches of snow last night – it is very pretty but I wish it would go away.
Hank,
Mid fifties here all day. Been working outside. A wee bit too breezy for air rifles.
I have been thinking of another 300. I had two that I was rebuilding and GunFun1 ended up with both of them. If I end up with another one, It will not be going anywhere. Period. I have been thinking long and hard on hot rodding it a bit, shortening the barrel some and trimming and reshaping the stock.
Some of the pellets I tried in the 601 were H&N Baracuda and FTT Greens. I was not impressed.
RR,
It was too damp/cold/windy for shooting yesterday but milder (40-45 F) temperatures are forecast and the rest of the week is looking better. Hope that shootable weather is here to stay – it’s difficult to shoot decent groups with numb fingers.
Since adding the 300 to the stable I have pretty well abandoned any thoughts of putting a scope on the 603 and trying it at longer ranges. Even with a shortened loading port the scope would be too high for my liking.
I will be making a sport stock for the 300. I removed the front sight and made a faux-silencer to dress up the end of the barrel when I mounted the scope – looks pretty good. Over all I am very happy with the 300 in factory configuration.
I believe that BullDawg has a couple of couple of extra 300’s available, you might want to talk to him if you are thinking about getting one again.
Thanks for the notes on the pellets for the 601.
Hank,
As I remember, Lubriplate is black in a small silver tube. I have never seen white grease from FWB.
B.B.
B.B.
I have a cartridge and a large can (both silver/black labels) of Lubriplate and the grease is an off white color with a smooth, creamy feel to it – like butter at room temperature. Think that it is lithium based.
The finger-sized tube of Feinwerkbau’s “Special Grease” (that is what is printed on the tube) looks and feels the same as the Lubriplate.
I use the Lubriplate for “low pressure” applications where smoothness is important – like in my fishing reels. Bonus is that it doesn’t stain the way that moly will.
Was just curious about the two products.
Cheers!
Hank
Hank,
Thank you for that.
B.B.
August,
I had to look up the 150 in the trusty Blue Book to be sure what it was. Nice score! For those that are not, do FWB 150 in the search box here and BB did a 2 part’er (more?), back in 2011. The Blue Book states side lever, peeper sights, 450 fps, 60% condition is 300$ and 100% is 800$, manufactured 1961 – 1968. That is one of those “Holy Grail” type rifles there! 🙂
I am assuming that the “T” means that it has a Tyrolean stock? If so, the Blue Book says to add a whopping 60%. (!!!)Those must be more rare. No mention of box and paper work adding any value.
Congratulations on your new acquisition, Chris
Chris,
I have a Feinwerkbau 150 Tyrolean in left-handed. :^)
Michael
Michael,
You Da Man!!! 😉 The Blue Book did not mention that it was not ambi. Must be like the TX200 in which you must choose left or right. Left usually bumps it up some more, though I have seen it work the other way too.
Chris,
I have heard or read somewhere that precious few lefty, Tyro 150s were made. I have only twice found one for sale. Obviously, I bought one of those two. I am only speculating, but they might have been a special order through a Feinwerkbau dealer.
Michael
BB,
If you test it then it is clear that we can build on that result. Most of the times with older guns it is in the line of the general expectations and sometimes as in this case it is different. That makes it always a more interesting read as we can speculate why this is occurs.
Ridgerunner, I bought him as a shooter as this one is in my opinion easier to handle than a 300S and I love the lines of this superbly piece of useless workmanship. Shooting this piece of craft just to punch holes in paper (a task which can be done better with a perforator) is what us make human.
Chris USA, it is indeed a Tyrolean, a stock which fits me the best when shooting out of hand. The box I hardly noticed when viewing the photo’s but when I came home it dawned on me that this could be the box in which the rifle was sold. Hence my questions. I will try to get some info from my German fiends and maybe FWB and if there is more to share I will come back with that,
Regards,
August
B.B.
You have used the Qiang Yuan Training pellets in many tests. I do not remember them doing well in any guns, maybe I am just forgetting one. Are they really worth using? Why them and not Meisterkugeln?
-Y
Yogi
Qiang Yuan Training pellets are less expensive, have consistent head diameters (so far) and give tighter groups at 10 meters. They are not quite as accurate as Qiang Yuan Olympic or those BB lists above.
Decksniper
Question on open sights:
You mention the tapered post is not ideal for precision shooting and the square rear notch screams for a square post.
In what scenario is a tapered post preferable and what kind of rear notch would it be used with?
Belgrath04,
Just my personal opinion, which is worth about that much, the pointed or tapered post would be good for quick hunting shots, especially long ranges where you do not want to obscure your target and want a point for a POA. You would not use a “six o’clock hold” as you want your POA and POI to coincide.
Belgrath04,
A tapered post is used in conjunction with a rear V notch. The gun is sighted so the pellet impacts at the top of the post.
B.B.
B.B.,
The holes made by the Hobbys look a bit ragged to me, and the paper is torn by a single pellet once or twice. At ten meters shouldn’t Hobbys leave cleaner wholes than that if the gun has a muzzle velocity of almost 400 fps.? My experience with Hobby’s at 10 meters is that they start to leave ragged holes at a lower velocity than 390-400 fps.
Michael
Michael,
I agree on the holes. I don’t think this pistol stabilizes Hobbys well.
B.B.
BB
What keeps them from stabilizing well is the question. Only if we knew.
I am glad to see your comments on the model 5 sights. I have the same thoughts but thought I was the only one. Also my impact was always high even when adjusted as low as possible. In short, this report is about what I have experienced.
Bill,
Thanks for saying that. I have no experience with the Diana 5, so you and I are in the same boat.
B.B.
Belgrath04—-The tapered post front sight works best for me with a v shaped rear sight. The tapered front sight tends to get lost in the target, resulting in vertical stringing. I am using round , black bullseye targets. When plinking, I paint the tapered post ( usually orange ) to get better sight definition.I am using an aperture rear sight on my Diana Mauser 98K. I want to replace the tapered front sight with a non tapered blade. Again , vertical stringing is the reason for wanting a non tapered front sight. ——Ed
B.B. and Everyone,
Off-topic, but I have to share the coolest looking air gun I have EVER laid eyes on:
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/4/4f/BB_gun.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110802112004
Michael
Michael,
Why do I hear banjos when I look at that picture? 😉
B.B.
B.B.,
B.B.,
“Well, it shore does have a purty mouth, don’t it?” Aaaaaaah!
I used to use Deliverance, novel and film, as texts in my film and literature class, so I have watched Deliverance upwards of three dozen times. I used to have the entire dialogue committed to memory, start to finish.
Oh, and my wife would regularly spot James Dickey walking on campus when she was doing her Masters degree at the University of South Carolina.
Michael
Michael,
I would love to know more about that picture. Too bad it was not bigger and clearer. The “thing” sitting besides it is a bit of a mystery.
I do see an adjustable cheek riser. Looks like straight into a band saw, circular saw or,..?,…. hand saw. Shim between, steady the whole mess with some rubber bands and you are good to go! 😉
The oversized cocking lever hand hole ought to be some sort of a give away on what the original rifle “might” have been. Looks like that new “Duke” they are pushing with that oversized cocking lever.
Ideas anyone? Chris
Love the movie Deliverance.
Especially the music.
Michael—Is that a .22 long rifle cartridge next to the gun? If Is, it gives new meaning the the term—–mouse gun ! —–Ed
PS—-I just took another look at the picture, perhaps it is a bit too big for a mouse, but a hamster ? Maybe a woodchuck ?———Ed
Took the liberty of bringing out the details in the BB gun photo above. Possibly a painting?
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/images/1/1d/BB_GUN_HM.jpg
Cobalt327,
Thank you for that effort. That ought to help someone with identification. The side piece looks like it might be a bb loader. Also, there is something on the side,… like a reflection.
An LP5 should shoot better than that (all 3 of mine do). I think it needs a service.
Here is another attempt:
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/File:BB_gun.jpg
I guess it is an image from a video game.
Michael
Looks to be a BB gun that loads the bb in a bullet shaped cartridge the best I can tell.
GF1,
I picked up 2 mill bits yesterday. (1/4″x 1/4″ x 10 flute) This would be in reference to the Maximus modifications we talked about last week. The act of inletting the forearm for air tube clearance is no issue. Nor is inletting the forearm for the barrel band. I figure maybe 2-4 hours of fussing around and being careful. What I do (not) want is to have the barrel band moved back and the accuracy be worse, though not bad now. That would leave the cutout on the stock, visible.
Here is what I thought,.. inlet the stock for the air tube, drill out the barrel band at the barrel hole and of course remove the set screw. This would allow the air tube to float in the stock. And, since the band is drilled out,.. the barrel can now float in the barrel band. And, no inletting the stock for the barrel band.
What do you think? It does take the barrel band/barrel contact out the equation, but then it would be like the M-rod. Your mod. keeps the band/barrel contact, but you moved it back.
I will be out until early afternoon, but let me know your thoughts..
Chris U
100% yes that would work fine. Let me know how it goes.
I did something else to my Maximus but I want to check it out first today and see how it does. And it was basically because I had to. I’ll tell more in a bit.
Chris U
Well here’s what happened. The bolt on my Maximus has been getting harder to cock lately. Yesterday after work I shot it and it started hanging up as I pulled the bolt back. So took it apart.
Found a slight spiral type groove wore into the breech. Basically looks like what happens when it’s being cocked. Lift the bolt and pull back. So I decided to sand the inside of the breech with some emery cloth where the bolt rides. Not up where the pellets loaded. Did the same to the bolt with the handle removed. Then took some brown scotchbrite and kind of polished both the breech and the bolt. Then figured I was that far in it I decided to take the striker out and do the same to it and the inside diameter of the main tube.
All that worked out fine. Oh and with just a few drops of the RWS silicone oil on the surfaces. What didn’t work is I put a Discovery spring that I had and a adjustable end cap off a 2300 I think I got it from in the Maximus. But even cranking in the adjustment on the Discovery spring it would not chrony with as high of velocity as the factory Maximus spring.
So yes the Maximus spring is for sure a heavier spring.
I ended up just a bit ago putting the factory spring back in without the adjustable end cap for the main purpose is that it looks to me like the factory spring is right at coil bind after I took a few measurements. And I did chrony with it back in. Back to the 800 fps it’s been shooting at. But now for sure smoother to cock with the sanding and polishing the bolt, breech, striker and main tube.
Just thought I would let you know.
GF1,
That is good to know incase the bolt ever starts to hang up. Glad you like the idea for the Maximus. It made sense to me. Took me awhile to make sense of it all and weigh all of the pros and cons. The only other thing that we talked about is at the front of the forearm where the stock closes in on the air tube,.. that will get opened up as well. I will get a better scope for it and will look into a bi-pod at that time. The front sling mount seems to be the place, but I was not at all impressed with what I have seen offered. That goofy adapter that came with my M-Rod bi-pod was joke. After some mods., what I have is real nice. I am not looking to do the scope attached version. Really, I am not looking to do it at all, but it would be nice when benching and to see what the accuracy is.
Chris U
I think you will be happy if you do the things you talked about.
And I’m sure you can find a quick disconnect bi-pod attachment. So if you do take it pesting or such you can pop the bi-pod right off.
And I’m happy with the way the cocking is now on my Maximus. It for sure did help.
Hello Gunfun1,
I did a post on April 1 down below. You did not post a reply to me but I can see that you do a lot of posting on this blog and seem to be very knowledgeable on airguns so I am requesting that you might check out my post. Chris USA has replied several times which I appreciate.
This post is actually in addition to my original post and I have asked Chris the same question.
I have been reading everything I can find regarding the Benjamin Maximus. It seems that the reviews are very good from respected sources, like Rick Eutsler. There are many Youtube videos demonstrating very good accuracy out to 30 yards, and maybe up to 50 yards. The price is right for sure. Airgun Depot has a nice combo which includes a G6 pump, sling, rat target, and a Mantis 3-9×32 AO scope. I wish the scope was a 3-12-40 though. Also, was looking at the new Umerex Gauntlet PCP. It’s only about $80 more than the Maximus and it is a regulated repeater. There are not reviews as yet because it’s too new I suppose. So there is no documentation on how accurate the rifle really is. It does look very promising though. It’s heaver and much longer, which are cons as I would prefer a shorter rifle.
Check them out and let me know your thoughts. Thanks very much for your time.
B.B.,
My Diana 5G pistol groups the best when I hold the pistol lightly and I allow it to recoil. It’s hold sensitive, remember to grip the pistol the same way for every shot. My pistol prefers the RWS Basic pellets.
I have a Hy Score 815 in .177 that I bought new in 1968. It looks like the Winchester but with a gray grip.
I always thought that it shot well, since I put thousands of pellets through it at my friends farm trying to get rid of vermin. When it started shooting badly (early 80’s?) I had the mainspring and piston seal replaced, which perked it up considerably.
I loaned it to a friend who was a pretty talented pistol shooter, who couldn’t shoot it worth a darn offhand. He didn’t like the sights either. When I got it back, he had modified the front sight by gluing a piece of a flat toothpick over the top of the tapered post and coloring it black with a felt pen. It helped the sight picture but not his scores (he thought that it was the pistol, as he could still shoot great with a .22 rimfire pistol). When he bought his own Daisy 777 (717?), he found that his follow-through was poor, and his airgun scores came up when his technique improved.
Mr. B.B. Pelletier
This is off topic. We did some blogging last summer regarding my RWS 34P in .22 caliber and it’s grouping. Remember the article you wrote for me on 12/6/16 named “Why won’t my new rifle shoot well”? This is George Johnson posting back again. It’s been a long winter and I’m just getting my rifle back out again. You recommended to me to do a thorough cleaning of the barrel with JB non-embedding paste and a brass brush. I performed this cleaning as per your specific instructions. I have been doing some shooting down in my basement because it’s still too cold outside to shoot. I can shoot about 15 yards down there. I bought a tin of CPHP 14.3gr pellets because they showed some promise last fall and gave some of my best groups. Today I shot about 100 rounds. At first it looked promising, then the groups opened up. I could get two or three shots out of five into a 1/2 bullseye at 15 yrds. But then two or three would be up to 2″ out in random directions. I am holding the rifle using your demonstrated artillery hold and being as consistent as possible…but no joy. I have tried everything I can to achieve the desired 1/2″ groups but am just not able to do so. The rifle is very smooth and stays tight, so no screws are working loose either. I just ordered some JSB Exacts 15.89 gr as they too showed promise last fall. I have practiced and practiced but am so frustrated with the poor groups. I really need to be able to shoot the sparrows from my bluebird nesting boxes at 25 yrds. So far I hit one once in a while but mostly just scared the heck out of them. It’s getting close to the nesting season too. The bluebirds are already picking out the boxes, if I can keep the sparrows from harassing them. Guess I may have to cross over to the dark side and get a PCP. They are just so expensive considering the need for a pump and all. Also, I have the RWS 34 and a Crossman Nitro Venom and I am not a collector. I just don’t know what to do at this point but keep missing the target. Thanks for letting me rant. Hope you are in good health and doing well. Look forward to your blogs.
Geo791,
I am no replacement for anything that BB could tell you,… first of all. Other than that, it sounds as if you are doing everything right. There is no substitute for practicing to the point of that everything becomes so automatic that you could do it in your sleep. But hey!,… we should not have to that, huh? 😉
Your choice of going to the JSB’s is a great move. The 18.13’s would also be something to consider. My TX likes the 18.13’s better and the LGU like the 15.89’s the best. JSB’s are the “go-to” pellets for a lot of people and with good reason. They shoot as well as any, if not most times better. That is not say that another brand might not do better, but the JSB’s are a good start.
I think we have all shared (and still share) your frustrations. I am the same way. 2 more things to consider is weighing and head sorting. I have done both and have a scale that will read xx.x and even bought a pellet gauge. So?,… you ask. I did find quite a range in weights. I would not even attempt weighing with the Crosmans. Even the JSB’s have a spread, but not nearly as bad. On the head sort,.. much less range. Digital calipers are one way,.. the Pelletgage is the other.
So?,… you ask. Did my groups suddenly and “magically” tighten up? Maybe, maybe not. In general yes. Was it worth it? Not sure. Results were not as consistent and as clear cut as I would have liked to have seen. Both are time consuming.
So what’s the point of weighing and head sorting? Well, it (eliminates) 2 variables that may or may not have an impact on accuracy. That is piece of mind. On the flip side of that coin is the realization that if it is not those 2 things,… then it must be me. 🙁
On PCP’s,. sure that would help. But,.. only to the matter of any shake, rattle and roll of a springer. A gentle push back, and that is it. No different than any single pump or multi pump. If you do go PCP, I recommend the Maximus in .22. I love mine, so does Gunfun1 and Vana2. The trigger can be made much better with some (easy) tweaks. Easy,.. as in,.. most anyone can do it.
One final thought. You did not mention scope or open sights. I for one would (only) use a scope at 25 yards. UTG’s are a great bargain. A sparrow at 25 yards is a very respectful and challenging target.
That is all I got for ya buddy. Chris
Thanks for responding to my post. I do appreciate any suggestions made by posters. Oh, and my RWS came with a Hawke Sport HD 3-9×50 AO Scope w/ Mil Dot IR Reticle. I have everything locked down with blue locktite and nothing has ever loosened up on the rifle and the scope has not moved. Guess I’ll just have to see what happens when I get the JSB pellets. I did try the 18.1 gr last summer and they did not group as well as the 15.89. The JSB Exact RS 13.43 gr shot horribly. The JSB Exact 14.35 shot fair and about the same as the 15.89 gr. The RWS 34 shoots around 680 ft/sec with the 14.5 gr pellet and heavier pellets like the 18.1 gr seem too much for it and they group poorly at 2″+. Thanks Chris.
Geo791,
No problem and I wish you the very best. Relax. I forgot that. Yes,… that may be the most important,.. and hardest of all.
Please keep us posted. Chris
Geo791,
On relaxing,… some of my best have been when tired, when having a full belly,.. again tired, or when having a “few”. The latter is universally NOT recommended among shooters and for good reason. Point being,………. the relax tip does have a lot of credit. You may think that you are,.. but maybe you are not.
I like to shoot when fully alert. Jacked up on coffee, etc. I do remember VERY well that B.B. stated one time of seeing the other guys at the range with their mocha, frappe, latte, what the heck ever coffee drinks. I think that his words were,.. “leave that at home”. Again, credit to the full relax.
When you get it figured out,… let me know. Because I am still working on it! 😉 Chris
Chris,
Thanks for your comments. I will do my best and try to remember your suggestions when I shoot next time. I did just turn 70 in Dec so I am not as steady as I once was…maybe that’s part of my problem. My best does not seem to be good enough…as least not for me. I want that feeling that when I have that pesky sparrow in my crosshairs, I am confident that he’s dead meat for the crows.
You mentioned the Benjamin Maximus PCP. I read all the reviews and the “head to head” articles. From what I have discerned from research, the Benjamin Marauder seems to be the best bang for the buck in PCPs. I do like the synthetic stocks on my rifles. Would like to hear your thoughts on PCPs. My only option for filling would be the hand pump too. I don’t mind a little exercise once in a while . Thanks again Chris.
Geo791,
The M-rod is good for out to an easy 50 yards (and more). But,.. It is also a 3000 plus fill. I would recommend the Maximus. 2000 fill, about 60 strokes on a hand pump (if memory serves me correctly) More than good for 25 yards. Plus, we can give you some good tips on getting that 6# trigger down to at least 1 1/2#. Swap the scope you got and you are good to go. Sparrows are “vaporized”. 😉 The crows might want to bring a spoon, rather than a fork to dinner though. The M-rod is good if you are looking to pop more than a sparrow at 25 yds.
Yup on getting “up there”. Only 55, but feeling it more every day. I know,.. I am just a “young pup”,…. 😉 Chris
Chris,
Thank you for the info. Wow! 6# trigger pull, that’s crazy high. I think my RWS 34 T06 is like maybe 2.5# and I can even feel a little creep in that. What are your thoughts on the Discovery?
It too is a 2000 lbs fill. Quiet would be nice but not a deal breaker. How does the Discovery and the Maximus compare. Maybe a head to head…hint hint B.B. I’m still in good condition at 70 and have not health issue, except those darn allergies. Take care Chis, is a pleasure talking with you.
Geo791,
I have the Maximus in .22 and the M-rod in .25. Both are good. The Maximus is not silenced. It does have a “pop”. I can not speak to the Discovery. The Maximus is said to have a new barrel and it does have good reviews.
And back at you,… it has been a pleasure talking with you as well. 🙂
Hit me up in the AM if you have any more thoughts. You know,… all of that “early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy? and wise?” 🙂 Outa here too!
Chris
Chris,
Just posted a message to you but I may have gotten it in the wrong location. It is just below a ways. I meant to do a “reply” but I must have messed it up. Sorry.
Hi Chris,
I have been reading everything I can find regarding the Benjamin Maximus. It seems that the reviews are very good from respected sources, like Rick Eutsler. There are many Youtube videos demonstrating very good accuracy out to 30 yards, and maybe up to 50 yards. The price is right for sure. Airgun Depot has a nice combo which includes a G6 pump, sling, rat target, and a Mantis 3-9×32 AO scope. I wish the scope was a 3-12-40 though. Also, was looking at the new Umerex Gauntlet PCP. It’s only about $80 more than the Maximus and it is a regulated repeater. There are not reviews as yet because it’s too new I suppose. So there is no documentation on how accurate the rifle really is. It does look very promising though. It’s heaver and much longer, which are cons as I would prefer a shorter rifle.
Check them out and let me know your thoughts. I will post this as a reply to Gunfun1 too as he seems very knowledgeable on airguns too. Thanks.
Geo791,
Yes, the Maximus is good. I do not know about the Gauntlet. 2000 fill too? I have not used a Mantis scope. On the pump, the Hill’s are supposed to be the best. The Maximus looks and points like a dream in my opinion. Nice and light too.
If you are in no big hurry, continue to do your research and ask lots of questions. Yes, Gunfun1 is very knowledgeable. Perhaps one of the most here.
On the Maximus and 10 shot groups at 50 yards
41mm w/ 8 @ 22mm
32mm w/ 6 @ 18mm
50mm w/ 6 @ 22mm
Keep us posted and hit me up on a current blog if you have any more thoughts. I do not check back often and only check the e-mail on the weekends. I don’t want you to think that I am ignoring you.
Geo791,
Just checked out the Gauntlet. Not bad but like you said, heavier and it is 3000. Not something I would care to do on a hand pump. It is a repeater and regulated. If you decide for sure to go Maximus, let me know first. I may have a shopping tip or two.
Geo791,
One more thing. Other people shoot better than me. Other people practice more than me. Other people have a natural talent for all things shooting related. Gunfun1 always outshoots me,.. but,.. he also practices a HECK of a lot more than me. Rewards are well deserved.
Me? I just try to have fun, not take things too seriously and always try to stack as many of the odds in my favor. That is the best any of us can do. 🙂
It would be a lot more fun if I could hit what I was aiming at 🙂 I wish I could get some definitive groups from one of the sample pellets so I could just focus on using one pellet and then working on the fundamentals that are possibly causing my poor groups.
Geo791,
I have one word — relax. Sometimes we tense up when we are frustrated by the seeming inaccuracy of an airgun. You are describing the classic symptoms of that. The groups starts out good, then blows apart. Any tension in your hold will set up odd vibration patterns in the rifle. So, relax.
Instead of seeing how well the rifle can shoot, try to see how poorly it does That’s how I discovered the artillery hold to begin with. And hangeth in there!
B.B.
B.B
I am really trying to relax when I shoot. I focus on the hold, the breathing, and follow through. I just wish I could eliminate those pellets that are not grouping well and find one that would give me a more definitive good group and then I could spend more practice time perfecting those fundamental shooting techniques. I am not consistent enough to separate the pellet my RWS does not shoot well, from something I may be doing incorrectly when shooting the rifle. This RSW seems to be so hold sensitive I can not believe it. I even have to be conscience of where I place my thumb! I try very hard not to grip the rifle too tightly but I do have to pull it into my shoulder a little to steady the crosshairs. It seems one has to almost be a robot to shoot one of these springers. Thanks B.B.
Geo791,
I heartily agree with B.B. on the relaxing. I know I’m not fully relaxed when my shots are all over the place. When I am in the zone though that is when my groups tighten up and I see the accuracy of my rifle. Even the seemingly simple act of tensing my cheek muscle sends my groups to the left of the target. So I have to be fully relaxed to make a good group.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Good to hear from you. I agree, my first shots of the day are often the best. Relax. There is a lot of truth to that. It does however run counter to “trying to squeeze in some shots over a fixed time frame”, or,.. holding yourself to an agenda,.. like beating your best, or checking out a new tune. Not only can multiple good shots “shake” you,.. but the ones that grow a 1/4″ at a time can do it as well. Stone cold on the emotions. That is the goal.
Siraniko,
Thanks for your input. I can use all the help I can get. I do understand the need to be relaxed and I do focus on all the shooting elements…artillery hold, breathing, follow through, etc. If I could at least eliminate the pellets that do not group well from the ones that do, I good then move on to perfecting more of the actual shooting fundamentals and perhaps improve my chances of shooting 1/2″ groups at 25 yrds, which has been my goal all along. Thanks you for your comments.
Geo791
How’s it going. You left me a reply above. I didn’t comment when you guys were commenting back and forth on the previous comments. Sounded like everyone had good input about your questions. So was just reading and listening.
But there is maybe a few things I can add. First is about the artillery hold. That is a good hold for spring and nitro piston guns. But also I have found some spring guns like setting right on your bag bench rest. Some guns like held loose some tight. You just need to experiment but make sure you stay with one pellet while your doing different holds. Take say 10 shots with a certain hold before you switch to another hold. But don’t change pellets. Once you find a hold that seems to be giving your best result then try another pellet choice.
And when you pull the trigger keep pulling all the be way through till the trigger stops. Also don’t move the gun or your eye off the target till after you come to a complete by stop with the trigger.
And one other thing. Your turret adjustments on your scope. It’s not good to be out real dar on turns. Like to far out up and to far out on right adjustment could allow for not tight spring pressure to keep your adjustment stable. I like to be more down and left with my scope. And by that mostly up and down adjustment is where you can do something about it by positioning the back of the scope up a little with a mount or shim under the scope in the ring saddle. That way it makes you put down adjustment into the turret.
But got to get back to work. Let me know what you think. I let you know about what I think of the Maximus later. But have t to go now.
Gunfun1
Thanks for your suggestions. B.B had me run my scope down 60 clicks shoot some groups at that setting to verify that the erector tube is was not floating. That resulted in no change in group size. Yes, I have tired resting the rifle directly on my bag and B.B. advised I would never get decent groups with an RWS 34P allowing the rifle to rest on the bag. So I rest the rifle on the palm of my hand which is resting on the bag. I think I have just about exhausted all the possibilities for poor groups. Maybe the problem is just me, and I will never be able to shoot a springer accurately. I hate to give up on the RWS 34P, as it is a very nice rifle, and move on to an entry level PCP :(.
BTW, if you are at all interested in the history of my posts, I began posting last year in June to get help from B.B. Pelletier. It makes for some interesting reading if nothing else. From those posts you can see what I have tried to achieve my goal of shooting 1/2″ groups at 25 yards with a RWS 34P.
/blog/2016/06/vintage-pellets/#comment-382628
Geo791
I’m sure you will at least have fun trying to get your gun figured out. Hope so anyway.
When you get it shooting how you think it should. Let us know. I’ll be interested in what you find.
Geo791
Mmmm? All I can say is that (if) you have absorbed and tried everything offered you, then it may be time to move onto PCP’s. I do not like the artillery hold. I just do not find it comfortable for (me).
Luckily I have 2 springers that can be rested and still shoot good. PCP’s just shoot easier due to the lack of spring/piston motion. Simple as that.
Catch ya on a future blog and always feel free to ask any questions. 🙂 Chris
Good Morning B.B.,
I just ordered that amazing last air tank I will ever need. A new product currently on Pyramyd Air’s web site. It is a wonderful buy for all of you PCP air gun shooters.. Check it out guys.
Bruce
B.B.,
I have an idea for an article. One that could benefit us all. (The mentality of a sniper.) After all,.. that is what we do,.. however we do it,.. and whatever form it takes. You mentioned “relax”. I would imagine that a sniper must control that under some pretty extreme circumstances. What else? Something to think about at any rate.
Chris
Chris,
Now, find a sniper to write it.
B.B.
B.B.,
Good point. You have, after all, already given us a wealth of information, much of which any sniper would use. Since we are not shooting thousands of yards, or even hundreds, there is some info. that just does not apply to airgunning. Plus, there is many books, movies, documentaries, etc. already out there on the subject.
No doubt that the mental preparedness/state is as unique as the individual. Take10 shooters at a field target match and all 10 would have their own way of being prepared and mentally “in the zone” they need to be in to accomplish the task at hand.
Chris
Good morning all, I got a new UTG scope this week. Mounted it on the M-rod yesterday and had a very good weather day to get it sighted. The scope it replaced was a center point with less magnification and I can tell you that the M-rod is shooting tighter groups.
All the talk of how to shoot well and I agree that it is important to relax. I often toss shot #4 or 6 of a group because I tense up trying to keep the same point of aim. I also tend to hold my breath to long while squeezing the trigger.
The JBS are the go to pellets followed by H&N. That’s all I have to offer at this time.