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Education / Training Benjamin Marauder, .25 caliber – Part 1

Benjamin Marauder, .25 caliber – Part 1

by B.B. Pelletier

Announcement: Airgun Arena is holding a shooting contest. There are rifle and pistol categories. Rifle categories are: spring, sporter (PCP/CO2) and target. Pistols categories are: sporter, custom and target. The contest started on April 15 and ends on May 15, 2010. Pyramyd AIR is supplying prizes, so git yer gun ‘n’ git shootin’!

The Marauder now comes in .25 caliber.

Yes, today we’ll begin our look at the new Benjamin Marauder .25 caliber rifle. This report will dovetail with the new .25 caliber Benjamin pellet, of course.

The first thing I note is that the price of the .25 is $30 greater than for either the .177 or .22 Marauders (at this time). Even with that, it’s still under $500, which has to be the biggest news! So, it’s now possible to buy a .25 caliber PCP for a very good price. Of course, the Korean sporters have hovered near this price point for many years, but the Marauder is made in the USA. ‘Nuff said?

The question on my mind was one of size. Would the .25 need to be larger than the smaller calibers? Would the receiver need to wider or possibly longer? And what about the diameter of the barrel shroud?

Fortunately, I tested the smallest of all, the .177 Marauder, when it first came out. I’ve looked carefully at both rifles and can tell you that there are no intentional dimensional differences.

One thing that strikes me but may not affect anyone else is that the entire Marauder line of stocks has changed. Crosman now says that all Marauders are made in the USA with some foreign parts. I have to imagine that the stock is one of those parts. Where the stock on my original .177 was more rounded and had overly generous checkering, the new .25 has a square, high profile to the forearm and the checkered portions on both the forearm and pistol grip have shrunk significantly. The finish of the current series of stocks is a matte or hunter-type finish that many of you have said you like. Lastly, the ventilated buttpad has also shrunk.

As far as the metal parts go, I think the outside dimensions are pretty close between the largest and smallest caliber rifles. I was especially concerned with the width of the shroud, and I can tell you that if it is any wider than the shroud on my .177, that width is not intentional.

Fill pressure
When I first tested the .177 cal. rifle, I made a big deal about the adjustability of the valve and hammer stroke/impact strength. These features allow you to tune the rifle to different pressures with different output powers. The current Marauder has these things, but the recommended fill pressure is 3,000 psi, and I think the amount of experimentation with all the variables can be overlooked. It’s there if you want to use it, but nobody’s going to make you. Yes, the Marauder is still a Dual Fuel airgun, allowing the use of CO2 as well as high-pressure air. It’s my opinion, however, that Dual Fuel is more appropriate to the Benjamin Discovery rifles and less so to a .25 cal. PCP like the Marauder. You don’t buy a Corvette and then convert it run on corn cobs.

Like all Benjamin PCPs, the Marauder’s coupling on the rifle is a male Foster.

Fill device
With all the new shooters coming into the world of PCPs, fill devices are more important than ever. Followers of the Benjamin PCP line will know what I’m about to say. But if you’re brand new and looking around at all possible guns, this is an important fact: All Benjamin PCPs fill with a female Foster coupling. It doesn’t matter if you’re filling from CO2 or air, the coupling on the rifle is a male Foster, so you have to have a female Foster connector to link up. If you buy Benjamin-branded fill devices, the right connectors will be there. If you’re putting together a Chinese meal for your airgun, know that you’ll need a female Foster quick-disconnect to couple whatever gas you intend to put in the rifle.

The new Marauder’s trigger continues with the adjustable features found on the original Marauder. However, I must say that I believe Crosman engineers have found ways of smoothing up this light an action. Speaking of actions, I found that the hammer cocked a lot smoother and easier on the new .25 caliber test gun.

The clip
Besides that, there’s just one more significant difference between the .25 cal. Marauder and all other calibers: the clip. Where .177 and .22 cal. rifles both support a 10-shot circular clip, the .25 is an 8-shot. That’s still enough ammo to down a murder of crows. Like the other two smaller calibers, the .25 clip inserts from the righthand side of the rifle, leaving clearance on the left for a large adjustable parallax wheel on your scope.

Besides all this, the new Marauder in .25 cal. will produce over 45 ft-lbs. of energy. We’ll find out exactly how much we can get when we take the rifle into accuracy testing. For now, let me say that I think we have another winner on our hands.

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

199 thoughts on “Benjamin Marauder, .25 caliber – Part 1”

  1. BB, glad to see you doing so much better. Just wanted to drop a line about the new Bronco. While I do not have one, I do have two Beeman C1's. One is full power and the other is a soft tuned rifle. It chronys at approximately the same as the Bronco.It shoots like a R7. What a shame many do not understand what a fine gun this is tuned down. I can definately see why you designed the Bronco after the C1.Light weight, carbine size, perfect! For the cost of the Bronco compared to a R7, it would appear to make a great back yard plinker and target rifle. Good job BB, I bet the Bronco will score high expecially after more awareness. regards

  2. Good Morning B.B.,

    Looks like Crosman is trying to drive me nuts. I've been thinking about a Marauder for too long as it is, but now what's a fellow suppost to do? How hard would it be to change calibers in this gun?

    Mr B.

  3. BB – Glad to hear that you're home. Take it easy on the path to recovery. Thousands here on the blog need you around for the long haul.

    I spent some quality time with the FWB 124 last week. I was at my cousin's place in the mountains. The spring and seal were replaced, but I don't think it was tuned when put back together. It's still quite a shooter, though. I was hitting bottle caps about half the time at about 25 yards. I only had a few different pellets with me. It liked the CPHs. Funny thing, my Marauder (.177 on CO2) would put a deep dent in a bottle cap, the 124 left a clean hole (both with the CPH).

    My 22 y.o. son finally got to shoot
    the Marauder. He quickly got bored with cans at 25 yards, and quickly started hitting the bottle caps.

  4. Mr B,

    I'm hoping that a caliber change is a matter of just a barrel, bolt, baffles, shroud endcap and magazine.. If it is, sign me up for a .25 cal conversion.

  5. Just got a chance to see the video on the new Bronco that Paul Capello made with Crystal? that's up on the Pyramyd AIR site. Very well done. The Bronco seems like a bargain for a plinker.


  6. A pride of lions, a den of bear cubs? A passle of possums (kidding here, guys) What else?

    Anyway, here is a question posted on a blog from last week. Does anyone have any ideas for anonymous Walther?:


    Yea! It's the weekend.

    Fred PRoNJ

  7. BB

    Welcome back and continued success with recovery and "repair"!

    If you have time (ha!)… Re: the Umarex 1911 Colt, it appears to need a tighter lock-up of the Co2 cartridge than my Umarex S&W 586(more tightening of the screw inside the grip prior to engaging the lever). I mention this because, I just got the pistol and used the same technique to (barely) tighten the Co2 cartridge in a similar manner as my 586. During my target session, I had one misfire (no gas moved into the valve) and several very weak shots. This was after about 10 shots on the new cartridge. I tossed the cartridge and put a new one in the gun with a much tighter turn on the adjusting screw prior to closing it up with the lever. Next groups of shots were fine.

    Am I attributing this improvement to a non-related issue of how tight the Co2 cart is?

    I know you have both of these pistols too, so your comments will be most welcome.

    PS you were right about Gamo match pellets in this gun, much better groups than the Hunters!

    Brian in Idaho

  8. AlanL,

    I guess you've never heard the phrase "a murder of crows"! It was first used in the 15th century, so it's not something I made up when writing for B.B. He actually dictated another phrase, but then I suggested a murder of crows (which he's heard before) and he wanted to use it. My favorite? Why, I thought you'd never ask: a coven of kittens 🙂


  9. BB,
    The .25 caliber looks ideal in a PCP to me, so I'll be watching this test. On the other hand, I'm still enjoying my springers and really hate to change anything right now (ever really:)). Keep happy, but don't overdo your comeback — we're happy with small doses if it keeps you healthy.

    RE: a murder of crows. I'm dubious that the term is properly employed in non-literary prose, especially when referring to Corvus Brachyrhynchos, the American Crow.

  10. BG_Farmer,

    As you've probably figured out by now, Tom & I don't necessarily follow the rules of writing "properly" 🙂 We try to write in a way that's most effective at communicating our thoughts, and we feel that a murder of crows is better than a flock of crows when conveying our thoughts about crows. It also adds an element of fun to our writings!


  11. Edith,
    I understand and was just ribbing you. My eye passed right over "murder" until AlanL brought it up, but it no doubt made quite a few people stop and think a second.

    Now I'm interested in the etymology of the word in this usage. I suspect a trick of orthography made an originally separate term appear cognate with the usual word "murder", an ambiguity perhaps tolerated because of the aptness of the poetic imagery when applied to crows. Just speculating, so your ploy worked:).

  12. BG_Farmer,

    From an Exaltation of Larks by James Lipton:

    The term appears in the oldest of manuscripts, Egerton, as a Mursher of Crowys. By 1476 it had become the more easily recognizable Murther of Crowes in The Hors, Shepe & the Ghoos.

    In addition to "a coven of kittens" that I mentioned earlier, here are some other group names I like:

    A business of ferrets
    A business of flies
    A ladder of social climbers
    A plague of epidemiologists
    A vein of hematologists
    A prickle of porcupines
    A cackle of hyenas
    A malocculsion of beavers
    A mask of raccoons
    A podium of orators
    An inflation of democrats
    A deficit of republicans
    A drain of think tanks

    There you have it!


  13. Edith, Kevin,

    Well, I just learned something new! I had never heard of "a murder of crows". Must not've read enough Poe, I guess. And the only coven I knew was witches. Jeesh, what crass ignorance I have just demonstrated… man I love this blog!


  14. Pod of whales. You know who you are.

    What a wonderful growth direction for Ms. M. I, too, felt a twinge of excitement thinking I could swap in a .25 on my Marauder. I never thought of swapping to .177 but now I really want to. CAN I?!!!! I would then be able to enter her into the Airgunarena beauty contest. OH, PLEASE MAKE IT SO!!!

    Real nomenclature (some have more than one):

    army of frogs
    bale of turtles
    band of gorillas
    bed of clams, oysters*
    bevy of quail, swans
    brace of ducks
    brood of chicks*
    cast of hawks
    cete of badgers
    charm of goldfinches
    cloud of gnats*
    clowder of cats
    clutch of chicks*
    colony of rabbits, ants, gulls, bats*
    company of wigeons*
    congregation of plovers
    convocation of eagles
    covert of coots
    covey of quail, partridge*
    cry of hounds
    down of hares
    draft of fish
    drift of swine
    drove of cattle, sheep, pigs
    exaltation of larks
    flight of birds
    flock of sheep, geese, ducks*
    gaggle of geese
    gam of whales
    gang of elk
    grist of bees
    herd of cattle, deer, elephants, horses, sheep*
    hive of bees*
    horde of gnats
    hover of trout
    husk of hares
    kettle of hawks*
    kindle of kittens
    labor of moles
    leap of leopards
    leash of fox
    litter of pigs, cats, dogs*
    murder of crows
    murmuration of starlings
    muster of peacocks
    mute of hounds
    nest of vipers, turtles, hornets, fish
    nest, nide, or nye of pheasants
    pack of hounds, wolves, mules*
    parliament of owls
    pod of whales, seals*
    pride of lions*
    raft of ducks (on water)*
    rafter of turkeys
    school of fish*
    sedge of cranes, bitterns, herons
    shoal of bass
    shrewdness of apes
    skein of geese
    skulk of foxes
    sloth or sleuth of bears
    sounder of boars, swine
    span on mules
    spring of teal
    stud of mares
    swarm of bees*
    team of ducks, horses, pigs, oxen
    tribe of goats
    troop of kangaroos, monkeys
    volary of birds
    walk of snipe
    watch of nightingales
    wedge of swans
    wing of plovers
    yoke of oxen

    * group names commonly used by wildlife biologists

    Taken from:



  15. Edith,
    Sorry about the cat and kitten – clowder/kindle – nomenclature but really it does fit doesn't it? I can't find any other definition of clowder except as pertaining to a group of cats so I conjure up a swirling cloud in my mind as I think of many cats milling around each other resembling a storm cloud brewing. Kindle for kittens fits because kittens are just waiting to burst into a full flamed cat.


  16. Chuck,

    I still prefer a "coven of kittens." Reminds me of how our cats would go down to the basement of our home (when we lived in Maryland) & bring a mouse upstairs. They'd plop down the mouse and all the other cats would sit in a circle as the terrified mouse sat shivering in the middle. That's when I picked up shooting airguns…to humanely dispatch the mouse rather than letting the cats play with it.


  17. Edith,
    Wow, I agree. What a horrible image from that poor mouse's perspective. That's exactly how I feel when I have to speak in public, "Please will somebody just shoot me?"

    Of course, from the kittys' perspective it's:

    "Hey guys, look what I found."
    "What is it?"
    "I don't know."
    "Let's bat it around and see what it does."
    "Oooo, this is fun!"
    "I'm starting to feel hungry."
    "Not me, but that thing is starting to annoy me ."
    "Hey that was mine."
    "Ah, go tell Missy Edie."


  18. A band of bloggers

    I think that has a nice ring to it.

    BB….Hope you're feeling better.

    45 ftlbs…..not bad, if the .25 mrod shoots as well as the others, it will definitely murder some crows. It's too bad they can't keep it all American.

  19. B.B.

    I think I looked up the etymology of "murder of crows" and it said something about how a group of crows would turn on one its own members for some reason, so the term is not accidental.

    Good news about the Airgun Arena contest, but I don't even have 10 meters to qualify for the minimum distance. Too bad.

    I had a look at the PA video the other day on the Bronco. Very impressive accuracy with the first pellet which I think was an H & N brand, but the groups really opened up with the others. This leads me to wonder: in the firearms tests that one reads about in gun magazines, you see variations in accuracy with different types of ammo, but I don't believe there is as much variation as among airgun pellets. You don't read about anything like the Gamo Raptor pellets which, in some cases, don't even hit the paper. The variance seems less. So, what about the proposition that pellet selection is more crucial for airguns than ammo is for rifles? Perhaps this is because of the lighter weight of pellets.

    Also, as a result of that video, I have come up with a fabulous idea! How about a guest blog from Crystal about her experience with airguns. She brings it off like an old hand talking about chronographing, and pellet selection and so on. The learning process must have been quite a trip for her. Have her write a guest blog and make her available to respond. >:-) I'd say I've outdone myself on this one. 🙂


  20. BB/Anyone,
    I would like more info on the KingMan Deluxe CO2 Fill Station. PA Item#:vKM-JAA1005[PY-A-1850]

    Is anyone using one of these?

    Specifically, I would like to know:

    1) Can I use it to refill the 888 from the 12oz. CO2 bottle I use to power my Talon SS. (Spyder 12oz. CO2 Tank Item#:KM-JAA12T[PY-A-1342]

    2) If not, is there a converter/connector that will allow it?

    3) If not, where do you get bulk fill CO2 for home use?


  21. Matt,
    Doesn't that explanation look contrived to you to explain a rather strange use of a word? The word "mursher", which is the earliest citation, also seems to be a hapax legomenon and does not occur as an alternate spelling of murther as far as I can see. It seems equally possible that "mursher" instead comes from another root (possibly OE murcian?) and was later changed to "murther"->"murder" due to a misinterpretation. For example, OE. murcian = to mourn or complain, so a "mursher of crows" may refer to the infernal racket they make rather than to the flock itself. Feel free to disagree (I'm certainly not citing any of my assertions as fact).

  22. Crows are supposedly one of the smartest of all birds incidentally.

    While most birds spend every waking moment searching for food, or a mate, or a nesting site, or defending any of the previous three, or migrating, crows have huge swaths of free time.

    Apparently they are so wily, they can secure food with a minimum of effort, so they are free to indulge their curious side, which is what makes them so pesky.

    In addition to stealing and corralling shiny objects, I have seen video of them rolling over on their backs, to slide down snow banks upside down. They do this over and over. Some might say they do this do rid themselves of mites, but I know better. I can see the smile on their beaks. They are having fun.

  23. Crows:

    My previous office had a window overlooking the parking lot and a couple of trees in which the crows would congregate. When there would be a constant, stiff wind the crows would go to the top of the tree, spread their wings, and just hover in place a foot or so above the tree letting the headwind do the work. I can only imagine that they were playing.

    Paul in Liberty County

  24. SL,
    They also mourn their dead, and learn to recognize threats. Many times I will go into the backyard "unarmed" and the crows stay where they are (perched on the fence). If I have any type of gun, they fly away before I'm out of the door:).

  25. BB and all, the 1377c with the shoulder stock sounds interesting, as it might give that little bit of power over the 953 to take out some birds or a squirrel. Plus, I could just detach the stock and have a nice pistol ' fo free '. I'll have to sleep on it though. Hope you are feeling better, BB.


  26. BG_Farmer,

    I was glad to read your post– I feel a little better now, imagining that a 'murder of crows' might be a a mangling of an original form. At least my backfiring snide remark to B.B. this morning has led to a most interesting discussion for the day.


  27. All American parts?

    IF they offered an All American choice along with the off shore blend would people pay a premium? I would. In this climate of job losses due to outsourcing many might. Yeah I lost my job due to outsourcing so it hits home.

    Too bad Crosman cut corners on the stock. The wood is a real important part of a gun.

  28. Re: All American Source Products and Crosman et al

    My son wrote a paper in college on this topic.

    Here's a couple of examples he cited and basically… the horse has been out of the barn for so many years now that we can't do much (if anything) about it. US consumers won't go backwards now?

    1) G.E. 10 Cup Coffeemaker, Walmart Price $28.50

    Chinese plastic and parts $6.39
    Chinese labor $3.12
    Shpg & Handling $4.00

    Total Chinese Cost $13.51
    Total Profit Available $14.99 (for WM, domestic shipper, distributor etc) as % of sales price 52% profit

    US plastic and parts $10.88
    US labor $7.73
    Shpg & Handling $5.33
    Total US cost $23.94

    Total US profit $4.56

    Anyway… I would be glad to buy US also, unfortunately, the $28.50 GE coffee maker has set the price point, and I doubt anyone would pay $48.50 for the same item US content.

    Brian in Idaho

  29. What gun is in the Foster fitting photo? Production MrDrs do not have rivets or screws (whatever those are) in the pressure tube.

    BTW, no problem w/ "…down a murder of crows", but how "…murder a murder of crows" could have been passed over is beyond me.

  30. Hi BB and all,
    In the UK we have a name for a collection of politicians.
    Sorry, I can't repeat it here.:)

    Although some Chinese products are good, most I find are cheap and do not last either.
    If the chinese up their game like the Japanese did in build quality then western manufacturers will be in even more trouble.:(

    My father has just 'aquired' a second hand Webley Eclipse .22 springer air rifle.
    He said on the phone "it's Ok".
    Master of the understatement is my father lol.
    I look forward to seeing it on Sunday when I visit.

  31. Dave UK

    We have the same name for the politicians over here, Trotsky, Marx, Lenin, etc etc, and our Prez was renamed Party Chairman recently.

    As a war vet, I am renaming myself "people glorious hero" in the spirit of our leftist federal crowd.

    Brian in Idaho

  32. DaveUK

    Re Chinese products

    Didn't say that Chinese products were any good, was just stating the HUGE cost gap between US and China.

    A kid working at McDonalds over here makes about $7 per hour. A Chinese computer technician makes the equivalent of $3 U.S. I'm guessing that the coffee maker assembler in China probably makes $1 U.S. per hr. at the most!

    My job is engineering for a defense contractor, domestic materials, domestic labor and no export of anything. I'm extremely lucky. (although Party Chairman Obama may change that in my lifetime yet!)

    Brian in Idaho

  33. Brian:
    Sorry if I gave you that impression mate.
    I did know what you were getting at though.I just wrote it wrong.
    I read an article that because of the Chinese policy of one child a family there is a massive shortage of girls.
    Predictions are there will be 30,000,000 males with not a lot to do except work or fight.
    Either way it doesn't look good.
    Western Governments cutting defence spending in favour of welfare is plain crazy.
    We need healthy scroungers like a hole in the head 🙂
    Goodnight from the Peoples Republic of the UK.lol

  34. Steve,

    That image came from the Marauder. The gun has gone through several different versions, and that's probably and image from the very first production model.


  35. I suppose this is a bit off-topic for today, but let me interrupt. I have some medical oxygen bottles I'd like to convert to co2. They're commonly known as E-Bottles. They were made by Catalina Cylinders, Cliff Impact Division

    Stamped up close to the neck is DOT-3AL2015 AS and O2 CLIFFDIV O3 O2 TO-3ALM139. They have a max allowable working pressure of 2015PSI. I believe that's about double the MAWP for co2 bottles – I could be wrong on that. Can they be adapted for use with liquid CO2? Anyone here ever done it? If so, pass the knowledge on.

  36. Does anybody know what the specs are for the main slotted screw that holds the Rear Sight to the tube on a Weihrauch HW30S?

    Checking to make sure that all stock screws were tight, I of course went for that one too, and slipped. I really messed up the slot, in my typical clumsy oafish fashion. Slinging Lead: Don't even go there!! 🙂

    Pyramyd's tech dept confirmed they don't have any parts for Weihrauch rifles and won't get them in until June. So they suggested I head to my friendly neighborhood hardware store.

    Here's a picture, on Pyramyd's zoomed pictures page for this rifle:
    HW30S rear sight screw
    It's the recessed screw at the front (muzzle) end of the sight.


  37. Offhand, I suspect two problems.

    First, there are some fairly tight regulations about putting stuff into the proper containers – and I'm not sure you'll find anyone willing to put CO2 into a O2 bottle even if it is safe. In a number of states (if not all), gasoline containers (for example) have to be red, diesel fuel yellow, and kerosene blue. Will a kerosene can hold diesel fuel safely? Sure it will. But it might still be against the law.

    Issue #2, fittings. Don't know how easy it'd be to put together an adapter, and I suspect that none already exist.

    Just some offhand thoughts. All the above is conjecture.

  38. Still not ready to return to full time posting, but heard this quote tonight that I thought some of you might like. "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." George Orwell

  39. AlanL,

    Does the screw still hold fast? If so, I would leave it alone for now. After all, June isn't that far around the corner. If you just can't wait, then take it out and carry to a good hardware store. They'll be able to tell you the thread pitch and size. Don't expect them to have one that is nice and shiny though. If you really can't wait and want one just as good as what you already have, then you might try advertising that you want to buy it on the Yellow forum or the gatewaytoairguns forum. I picked up a complete rear sight, including the screws, for my Beeman R7 that way.



  40. AlanL,

    That screw is M5 x 0.5mm. This is an ultra fine, non-standard metric size. You will not find these at any hardware store in the US. I couldn't even find any online from fastener distributors. Sorry.

  41. Only just logged back in after a number of days. Great to see Tom up and around. Can verify the wierdness of modern anasthetics remembering the days of the 60s and 70s wehn going under felt like sliding down a long tunnel to today when one is out in an instant, generally mid converstaion, and comes round in that strange way. Still, its like having your house rebuilt while you are on holiday, you know nothing of the process!

    Best to you and Edith.


  42. rikib:
    You got me thinking with that quote mate.
    What was the first casualty in the imposition of Political correctness?
    Jokes and Humour.
    Because the best jokes are always based on the Truth.
    The PC crowd don't like it.

  43. Slinging Lead:
    Wow! what cracking Photo's.
    The paper they were published in is 'The Daily Mail'or 'Mail on Sunday' by the look of it.
    I don't buy papers but 'the Mail' is one of the good guys if you know what I mean.

  44. B.B. or anyone…
    I was watching "Gunny" (R Lee Ermy) shoot several different rifles yesterday and noticed something strange….
    Sometimes he would hold with his "off" hand with his thumb on the left, and other times would reverse with his thumb on the right. a 180 degree reversal of his left wrist.
    Also some times instead of having his left elbow straight down, he would have it in much closer to the center of his chest.

    Are these differences in hold to sdjust for the shape of the rifle, the angle of the shot, or both???


  45. kevin
    No problem.
    Gunny was using a target competition hold…not something a swat team would use.
    His off hand was held close in with his left arm against his ribs. His hand only cradled the rifle…not gripped.


  46. Just a word to the wise:

    Not everybody on this list is a conservative; and not everybody is an NRA member.

    Focus on air guns, not on political comments or snide comments with a political overtone.

    Oh, and not everybody likes the Daily Mail!


  47. Slinging Lead,
    Those pictures are really cool and strangely beautiful. Thanks for sharing. My favorite is the pellet caught inside the water filled ornament. Awesome.

  48. PZ,
    You're likely technically correct – some shooters are liberals and many have yet to join the NRA. But your desire to chide is not correct. Most of us here are rather conservative and likely most are NRA members.

    While I agree this is not the place for political debate; the occasional political comment and humor should be OK.

    We shooters has a whole are much less concerned about being PC than the average bleeding heart self loathing liberal.

    Why is it liberals believe the only free speech that is protected is theirs? For example the liberals painted GW as a Nazi for years… yet stating Obama is a socialist is considered hateful by those same people. Where is the logic in that?

    We are all free and are all allowed to state our beliefs even if they are not considered PC. Thank God this is still true in the country… for now.


  49. Hi BB,

    I have a marauder in 177 and i simply love the quiet shooting cycle. I use the Benji hand pump to fill it up.

    I am planning to get an HW100 in 22 cal but have no clue what sort of adapter i need to fill it with the benji hand pump?

  50. DB

    You have a witness!


    The Daily Mail article I referenced is airgun related, and contains no political content. It is quite artistic actually, I encourage you to check it out.

  51. from DB: "some shooters are liberals and many have yet to join the NRA. But your desire to chide is not correct."

    No intent to chide. Simply to make clear that it's not nice to make those with other views, and, of course, I include myself, uncomfortable. If I ever join the NRA, it will be because I have to in order to shoot in NRA matches. Being courteous is not the same as being PC; my liberal friends will agree that I am less PC than most conservatives.

    Yes, the Daily Mail article was interesting and appropriate. But DaveUK's comment that the Mail was "one of the good guys" got me. I lived in London for 4 years and never would have put the Mail in a "good guy" box. I always thought it a semi-literate tabloid catering to right-wing lower middle-class women. But there's no disputing taste. Others like it.

  52. Pete Zimmerman:
    You are quite correct and I am sorry for exercising my political angst on BBs Forum.
    You are also right about the Daily Mail as well.
    Shows you how bad the British press has become:)
    Sorry to you also BB I will keep quite on such matters from now on.

  53. I'm trying to figure out what kind of starter airgun I should get for my 16-year old son. I've narrowed it down to a Crosman 1377C (with the optional shoulder stock and a 4x32mm Leapers scope when he gets good with the iron sights), a Daisy Powerline 953 with Airforce front globe sight and Mendoza Diopter rear sight, a Walther CP Sport, and a Beeman P17. If you could point out what could be best, that would be great; my specifications for his airgun are that it needs to be .177, be under $150 total with accessories like PellGunOil, pellets, silicone wipes and the like, have good reliability (meaning, it usually wouldn't require disassembly maintenance), and have enough accuracy to teach good technique.

    Also, does anyone know if the Walther Adjustable CP88 sights can be fitted onto the Beeman P17? It seems that the sights are kind of sloppy, and I think that using firearm-type sights would make the Beeman the ideal handgun practice airgun, if the reliability is good.

  54. Anonymous looking for starter gun,

    I don't know anything about the other guns you mentioned so keep that in mind when I say:

    The 953 fills all the requirements you listed for your 16 year old. And it will work for you, also. It is inexpensive, easy to shoot, quiet, likes JSB Exacts, easy to maintain, solid construction, takes a scope easily, no hold sensitivity, is designated a target rifle, and is used by many shooting clubs (the membership kind not the bludgeoning kind).

    You should get two so that you can shoot with your son at the same time. I find that my grandkids stay more interested and competitive when I am actively involved shooting and challenging them.

    WV: under – wow, an actual word that's in the dictionary.


  55. Anon starter gun,

    I second BB's comment on the Bronco, too. I think I was typing my comment while he was posting his.

    I don't have a Bronco myself so I can't give you any firsthand info. I've read a lot about it, mostly from BB, and he sure knows his stuff. Almost all my purchases have been based on his recommendations.

    Maybe what you should do is buy the Bronco for your son and get yourself the 953 and you've got springers and pneumatics covered. Then you can decide which way you want to go if you decide to compete.

    BTW, you should consider registering you and your son and competing in the eMatch on http://www.airgunarena.com. There is a senior league and a youth league and it's fun. Doesn't cost a dime and has nice prizes.


  56. What is true "political correctness"? I don't know.

    Couple more George Orwell quotes:

    All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome.

    And didn't realize he is accredited with:
    Big Brother is watching you.

  57. Derrick,
    I would guess poly if its newer, lacquer maybe if older. There is a test rubbing acetone onto it, but it will basically destroy any non-polyurethane finish:(. If you want to remove the finish, start with something that takes off polyurethane:).

  58. rikiB

    Thank you, for your last two posts. Political correctness is an affront to all good people. Conservative or liberal.

    PC sits in the same toolbox as browbeating and petty insults for stopping polite, intelligent debate.

    Political correctness is passive-aggression, thinly disguised.

  59. Derrick38,

    Thanks for the info on the HW30S rear sight screw. Being an impatient man I hate to wait, so I wrote to Weihrauch for a replacement. I'll let you know if they come through.

    BobbyNations- thanks also- I will keep trying local sources just in case.

    Slinging Lead,
    What's up with you? You are reticent all of a sudden– most worrisome. Check your temperature. I expected more punishment from you!


  60. PZ

    Another word to the wise:

    "Not everybody on this list is a conservative; and not everybody is an NRA member." TRUE!

    However, 4 years in London does not make an expert! I spent almost 7 years in the UK and my wife is British, I don't pretend to know all the interworkings of what is truly going on. My wife talks with her family in the UK every week. Just like here there are many sides to every story.

    DaveUK was stating an opinion (although this is not a political forum it does involve guns). Thought we were allow that, just as we are allow guns and free speech.

  61. Anonymous Airgun Searcher

    My first airgun was a 1377c.

    My parents had one in the early 80s, for dispatching the woodpeckers
    that were assaulting our cedar-board siding on our house. I was not allowed to use it however. I got in trouble for using it, even though I killed a woodpecker.

    I bought my own 1377 about a year ago to rid myself of varmints damaging my houseplants. It is a delicious appetizer, but will leave you hungering for an entree, or two.

    Aside from the 1377c, I have owned a Bronco and have a 953.

    My Bronco I gave it to my nephew who is 14. It is just about the perfect first airgun. It is accurate, easy to cock, and almost completely wood and metal.
    It requires technique to shoot to it's potential, but teaching technique is one of your stated goals and definitely worth learning.
    I have put 5 pellets through one tiny hole at 30 feet.

    I purchased my 953 used, and just recently. It is very accurate as well,
    and addicting because of the indexing clip. It is my favorite air rifle for shooting indoors. It also contains vastly more plastic.
    The accuracy is about the same as the Bronco at this range, but comes easier, due to the different powerplants.

    The edge goes to the Bronco.

    Chuck gave excellent advice. Buy them both if you can, so that you can shoot with him, it will be more gratifying for both of you.

    Your open sight choices are top notch. As far as a scope, may I suggest the Leapers Golden Image?

    Leapers Golden Image

    This is a great hobby, I hope you and your boy stick with it.

  62. FREEDOM Quotes from Geroge Orwell

    -Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

    -Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

    Is the Bronco really as good a rifle as all these comments make it out to be. It appears to be a excellent all around rifle. Even though I prefer pistols and/or repeaters.

  63. AlanL

    My mouth is filled with blood from biting my tongue, and my temperature is quite elevated.

    The thing is, I am petrified to make any derogatory remarks. I have read accounts of being drawn and quartered. I suppose you could rip my arm off just by shaking hands. I am trying to stay on your good side;^)

    I have done my fair share of damage.

    Cosmetic scrapes not withstanding, any other updates? How are you adapting to one of the best triggers in airgunning?

  64. Slinging Lead,

    Very nice point to the pics of the pellets on impact– I'd like to do that with my .22 RWS 350! Wish I knew how to set up that laser trigger for the camera. But I must admit I felt sorry for the strawberry and the tomato– it just pains me to see food wasted.

    It is fascinating that the majority of the exit spray from all these targets is to the rear. The increased pressure in the target vessel evacuates through the newly created path of least resistance– the entry hole. Not intuitive, but logical. Herb and Jane, you need to look at those pictures, you will enjoy them.


  65. S.L.,

    Unfortunately it has rained a bit and my last two weekends have been filled with honey-do's and father-daughter school activities. Ergo the guns sit in the closet, pining for my attention.

    I'm still waiting to hear from Umarex what the story is on my 54, but Glenn was out all week, and three attempts to get through to the actual tech who petted my gun have all been unsuccessful.


  66. PZ,

    "Simply to make clear that it's not nice to make those with other views, and, of course, I include myself, uncomfortable."

    You don't believe that for one second.

    If someone with a knife approached a loved one with the 'view' that they should surrender both their money and their blood to him, I bet you'd think it would be perfectly appropriate to make him feel uncomfortable with whatever instrument you might have handy.

    Speaking the truth and doing the right thing are the primary things. Yes, sometimes it makes others uncomfortable. And sometimes that's the right thing to do. At best it could be argued that one shouldn't go out of one's way to make another uncomfortable, and that's about as far as it can rationally go. But never, never at the expense of right.

    Before anyone objecting that I chose what might be termed an extreme example, I will point out that most times (if not always) the very best test of a principle is to see how it fits in extreme situations. If it doesn't, then the principle itself is probably flawed.

  67. Anonymous,
    The Hammerli 490 is pretty nice, too, if the power isn't a problem. Its size should be excellent for a 16 yo. The trigger takes some wearing in and a little lube, but that is about all you need to do to it. Don't buy the combo, get it plain and buy the Leaper's Golden Image 3-9×32 A0, if you must have a scope. These low-powered springers are nice at <20 yards, where scopes aren't essential, and the H490 has really nice open sights, that can be adjusted from probably 5M to 20. I've got several thousand shots through mine at this point and it is nicer every time I shoot it.

    Search blog with "Hammerli 490" for BB's reviews.

  68. AlanL,

    Yes, it's a Theoben pump. They used to be available for anyone who owned a Theoben gun, but Theoben supposedly discontinued selling it because people usually over-pumped their gas springs, which resulted in the gun locking up. In that case, it took more pressure to cock, delivered less velocity and in a short time it would destroy the piston seal.

    I'm surprised to see that Weihrauch sells the pump as I thought Theoben no longer sold it to anyone.


  69. Vince said
    "Simply to make clear that it's not nice to make those with other views, and, of course, I include myself, uncomfortable."

    You don't believe that for one second.

    If someone with a knife approached a loved one with the 'view' that they should surrender both their money and their blood to him, I bet you'd think it would be perfectly appropriate to make him feel uncomfortable with whatever instrument you might have handy."

    Yes, I absolutely did mean it. This blog is not a political discussion, and there is no good reason for injecting politics into a situation in which people are talking about shooting air rifles, and phrasing your remarks as if any non-conservative in the group was wrong, stupid and unwelcome here. And son-of-a-xxx, the issue of mugging hadn't been raised until you did.

    I always thought my liberal buddies a bit intolerant of those who shoot for sport, and have been a little uncomfortable letting them know that I love target shooting. I always commented that I thought the conservatives might just be a little more tolerant of those who shared some but not all of their opinions.

    DaveUK's post and his e-mail to me were much more what I expected here.

    But in your case, Vince, my assessment of the level of tolerance for different opinions was wrong.

    We disagree profoundly on many things, and I will not concede that your view is "right" any more than you will concede that mine is. But I thought we were talking air guns here, not politics.

    If Tom Gaylord tells me I'm not welcome, and I shouldn't expect courtesy, I'll leave, and be pretty disillusioned.


    I don't pretend to be an expert on all things related to the UK, but I was a full professor in a university department which dealt with foreign and defence policy, and I did then and do now read across the spectrum of British national newspapers. I do think I'm entitled to my own opinion of the Mail and Mail On Sunday. Don't you?

    And yes, those pictures were bloody magnificent! My favorites were the one of the Xmas ornament shattering into colorful bits and the one of the pellet entering a water-filled chamber. I'm puzzled about the use of a laser trigger; the US Popular Photography magazine and some UK mags have shown how to build an acoustic trigger that's much cheaper. (in a former life I was an experimental physicist).

  70. Vince,

    For safety's sake, because the seals on oxygen tanks have to be special so they don't spontaneously combust, most oxygen tanks have threads that only fit other equipment designed to handle O2. Converting an oxygen tank to a CO2 one is likely to cost a lot more than buying a CO2 tank.


  71. Everyone,

    The internet is a wonderful tool for information transfer, but it lacks a lot when it comes to communication. These political discussions often arise because a reader has a preconceived notion of what certain trigger words mean. And, sometimes, people really do get angry. As long as you maintain decorum, you are welcome on this blog. You are entitled to your own political view, and I won't try to change that. Sometimes, though…and maybe often, my own politics will enter into my remarks. I trust you will all be as forgiving of me as you will of each other.


  72. Somebody just got a wild hair up his wazoo! A professor that cannot spell defense. You ARE entitled to your OPINION I fully agree, SO are others MEMEBERS. We all have opinions here.

    Just to add another fitting George Orwell quote in regards to your remark concerning reading of newspapers:
    "Early in life I had noticed that no event is ever correctly reported in a newspaper."

  73. AlanL,
    I'm very interested if Weihrauch will send you or sell you the part. I've been trying to buy a .25 cal barrel/breech block assembly from them for almost 2 years. They referred me back to Beeman who presumably ordered the part then sold the company off. If you emailed Weihrauch, you'll likely get a response directly from Hans Herman Weihrauch himself.

  74. Patriotism is usually stronger than class hatred, and always stronger than internationalism.

    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

    Okay, no more Orwell quotes for the night, just couldn't let these two go without mention.

  75. B.B./Edith,

    Thanks- I just learned something new again– that the gas springs could be pumped up. I've not gotten very far in Cardew's book yet, and I was under the impression that they were totally sealed systems.


    You'll be the first to know as soon as I hear back from Weihrauch.


  76. "The aim of a joke is not to degrade the human being, but to remind him that he is already degraded."
    George Orwell

    Didn't want to leave this blog with a "deleted comment" so thought I'd add something.

  77. rikib,

    For you, of all people, to bring up spelling, is laughable indeed.
    A word to the wise: if you keep your mouth shut, you can't put your foot in it. "Defence" is the British spelling of that word. And you spent 7 years in the UK? My my…


    Don't go away– I think you're cool. Now, can you tell us how to make an acoustical trigger?

    With the speed of sound at a given altitude and temperature known, and a chrony, it should be possible to set up the muzzle a trifle further from the target than with a laser trigger, and avoid getting strawberry juice all over the gun! Am I right?

    The spinning pellet split by the razor blade could only have been filmed at very close quarters, unless Seiler's an unbelievably good shot.


  78. AlanL
    You don't have to be an incredibly good shot or be very close to split a pellet.
    Having a very fast camera and an appropriate triggering device are more critical.
    I have shot groups at 25 yds that looked only slightly larger than a single pellet with both .22 and .177….from a bench rest. Any of those shots would have split on a razor blade. And I am not rock steady on my hold either.

    You need a reference point to aim at. You might need several tries to get one split near dead center, but it can be done at distance.


  79. Edith,

    On PA's site the Crosman Premier .20 caliber pellets in the carton are shown as 14.3 grains in weight, the same as the .22 caliber. I imagine that's wrong. Do you know the correct weight?


    The Weihrauch HW80 seems to pack a significantly greater punch in .20 caliber (22 ft-lbs) than in .22 (18 ft-lbs), if the specs on PA's site are to be believed. I had not seriously considered the .20 caliber alternative until now. May I have your thoughts on this?


  80. .20 cal is not just the marketing hype I once thought it was. But that said I would only get it in low to medium high powered spring air rifles. After that just go with .22 caliber. I need to get going so I don’t have time to explain, but just trust me for now if you are getting close to pulling the trigger on something.

  81. BB, which one do you believe (after break in) will generate the most velocity? A Daisy 953 or a 1377c?
    Seems like another guy is interested in the same things I am , except for his 16 yo son instead my 14 yo self. I'm not completely immune to power. Also, can you interchange the 1377c plastic shoulder stock with the grips as many times as you would like?


  82. HK,

    The 1377c is more powerful, though you can pump fewer times for less oomph. The 953 is much more accurate and easier to shoot well due to the longer sight radius.

    As long as you don't torque the heck out of the stock screws, you can interchange the grips/stock many times. Keep in mind though, that the grip frame of the 1377c is a fairly soft diecast part and the grip screws are pretty small–they're #6-32's If you're going to change the parts daily, I think you'd better just buy a second 1377c. They're pretty inexpensive.

  83. HK,

    Shoot, was that too technical of an answer? I forgot you're 14. Well, if you're on this blog asking intelligent questions, you're probably smart enough to figure all that out and more.

    The 953 is a nicer gun overall than the 1377c. Hope that helps.

    word verification: prospors
    maybe that's a hint for HK to get an Air Arms Pro Sport? Nice!

  84. Man, you actually got me to look up the Pro Sport. I might get it, its just a few bucks more than either of these guns ( not really) ! Maybe I'll get both. But thanks for the info.


  85. Volvo,

    Thanks. I was sure the weight for the .20 CP's was wrong. The other similar .20 pellets average 13.5 grains. I'm still surprised. How can the .20 and .22 cal CP's both weigh 14.3 grains? They either thinned the skirt on the .22's or diminished the thickness of the head a trifle. Since I don't have a .20 to measure I'm guessing.


  86. Folks,

    Not airgun related, but I thought you might all enjoy this. The German heavy equipment manufacturer Liebherr has gone to some pains to publicly impress us with the quality of their products.

    The running commentary by the tv news reporter is in German, but you can ignore it, it's not important. I wonder if Caterpillar could ever obtain permission from city officials in Peoria, Illinois to pull such a stunt, if any heavy equipment operator of such skill could be found who would trust his life to hydraulic failure…


  87. B.B./Edith,

    It’s the first time all week I’ve been able to get on and hear how you guys are doing. Edith – thanks for the lengthy update (a few days ago) on Tom’s condition and upcoming procedures. I’m very happy to see things looking up for you guys.


    Sweet find on the photos. Seiler’s archive is huge… still have another 20 pages or so to look through. Thanks for sharing, guys.

    – Orin

  88. I can't believe I've been hunting the same stupid pigeon for 5 days. He's been roosting in my neighbor's eves and I've seen him every morning picking around a patch of freshly seeded and fertilized grass, roughly 40 yards away. I finally got him today, but here's how it went:

    Day 1: Started off like any other day. I lined up on the bird and went to squeeze the trigger… right as a car drove into my cul-de-sac and spooked him. Ironically, it was the neighbor whose house said bird roosts in. He saw me de-cocking and said, "Did you get him?" with a big smile. Uh, no. Sorry.

    Day 2: I pulled the trigger this time… nothing. The safety was still on. Clicked it off, only to realize I still had slight pressure on the trigger (it's set at around 8 oz) and the gun went off. Fortunately it was still pointed at the grass patch, but this was a real eye opener that had never happened to me before. I cursed and made a mental note to be more careful.

    Day 3: How could sprinklers be so ill-timed? And who sets their sprinklers to come on during daylight hours in Las Vegas anyway? Stupid sprinklers.

    Day 4: Hadn't even lined up on the cursed bird yet before my 2 year old son opened the front door right behind me and said, "Hi Daddy – what are you doing?" At this point (after 3 other frustrating days) even if the pigeon had stayed put long enough for me to take the shot, I was prepared to expose my son to the gruesome world of varmint hunting. But it didn't, which is probably best, because now I don't have to explain to my wife why our son is talking about killing birds.

    Day 5 (today): Perfect conditions, perfect day, perfect head shot. Dropped him on the spot, the little bugger.

    – Orin

    WV: walin. Yup, head shots and Baracudas don't leave much time for that.

  89. Pete Zimmerman,

    Experimental physicist?! That's really cool. We'll know who to hit up for ballistics questions next time. I know the political climate at universities. There, with a shooting interest, you're considered a hard-core conservative and here a bleeding heart liberal–although I think the sciences tend to be more conservative than the humanities. Anyway, you're getting it from all sides. Hang in there.

    All, I have another cool idea although not as cool as the Crystal Ackley blog idea. Get yourselves a Gurkha Kukri. This knife feels amazing in the hand. The design somehow puts all the weight of the blade behind the edge at the precise instant of impact when chopping. It's an aesthetic experience. Even better, the Kukri, as I read about it, is just the latest version of the kopis sword from the time of the ancient Greeks and even earlier. This goes back even further than the Roman antecedents of the Gerber Mark II. You can be a Spartan.

    Along with your Kukri, purchase one of Wayne's raised gardening beds and grow things to chop down to your heart's content. Now that the sun has come out, I did a bit of that yesterday in my small garden plot, and it was great. I even undertook a test of my various knives by matching up the Ka Bar against the Kukri and the Cold Steel Bushman. It was a little disappointing that the Ka Bar did not have much of a feel to it. It's very well-made but more of a utilitarian tool. It doesn't come alive in the hand like a Kukri or the Bushman which at about $20 is the IZH 61 of fixed blade utility knives as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps this intuitive feel for the blade underlies the mysticism that underlies swords from various cultures. For that matter, it probably explains the unexplained urge or attachment for different airguns. The samurai sharpener spoke very eloquently on this subject in talking about how skill (sharpening) can give you a deep connection to an object–like a knife or an airgun.

    BG_Farmer, I concede about the crows. Everything you said is news to me and sounds plausible. What's a "hapax logomenon"?


  90. Thanks, AlanL, but it sounds more impressive than it really is. I have a large trash container outside the front door, behind a pillar, that I use as a bench rest. The whole setup makes for a great sniping location. Sandwiching myself between the container and the stucco wall, my body is rock steady. That, combined with my .177 TX200 and a 24x scope makes it hard to miss. I can typically pull off 1/2" groups shooting at that little grassy knoll. Once I picked off a dragonfly that was hovering on a shrub at the far edge of it! Now that was a proud (albeit, unnecessarily cruel) moment.

    I'd really like to start using the Benji Trail XL for hunting, but even after a full tune and much hold experimentation, I'm still having accuracy issues. It probably doesn’t help that I’m comparing it to the TX’s performance. This Marauder review is certainly not helping my battle against the Dark Side. I've been eyeballing it (in .22) for quite some time, and now the Evanix AR6 Shrouded has caught my attention. Go away PCP – I can't afford you!

    – Orin

  91. Orin

    "Do not resist the darkside."

    I actually prefer my springers, but like to dabble in PCPs. I've got a Marauder in .22 and my wife a Disco in .177. Both very fine guns. I recommend them both.

    How do you de-cock your TX200? I am guessing you hold the underlever while pulling the trigger and pressing the AB button? I thought I remembered trying that, but perhaps I did not.

  92. AlanL,
    I did admit my error to PeteZ on the spelling of Defence/Defense in the UK. I really don't know what you are trying to imply by your statement: "For you, of all people, to bring up spelling, is laughable indeed."

  93. S.L.,

    Yes, thank you. One more proponent of the Marauder is what I needed. I'm growing weaker by the second. 🙂

    To de-cock, it's basically as you said, but here it is in more detail: 1) Fully retract the cocking lever. 2) Press the safety in (off safe). 3) Apply pressure to the cocking lever and pull the trigger. Slowly release pressure on the lever (it won't move far), allowing the anti-beartrap to catch. 4) Again apply pressure on the cocking lever (not too much or the safety will re-engage), press the anti-beartrap button, and de-cock the handle.

    – Orin

  94. I found the following in another forum [geocaching.com] and thought that it was appropriate for all of the spelling/grammar police.

    Muphry's Law – Not to be confused with Murphy's law.

    Muphry's law is an adage that states that "if you write anything criticizing editing or proofreading, there will be a fault of some kind in what you have written". The name is a deliberate misspelling of "Murphy's law".(From Wikipedia)

    The Seiler photos were awesome. Who would have thought that blasting stuff could be art?

  95. I forgot to say that Volvo's story about his murder of crows still gives me the creeps. They were tormenting a baby rabbit to death that was screaming for about an hour. Got no problem wiping them out the way he did.

    Regarding matters of conduct on the blog, I think B.B. is right as well as speaking with the voice of authority. 🙂 But I think it's a good opportunity to reflect also on the conduct of the Great Emancipator, our 16th president who is considered, by overwhelming consensus, the greatest one of all. Here was someone who could negotiate disagreement and alternative viewpoints. Not only was he dealing with the Confederacy, but there were innumerable factions within the North that hated him and wanted to secede, and he was also getting it at home from his own wife who teetered on the brink of insanity and was given to fits of irrational jealousy. He knew how to stick to his principles. As he said, "I expect to maintain this contest [Civil War] until successful or til I die. However, these principles, he was fighting for were the most fundamental–the integrity of the Union and, somewhat later, the abolishment of slavery. Apart from them, he was willing to ignore just about everything–which included decorum, rank, personal insults, even habeas corpus and other legal principles that have caused some modern legal scholars to raise their eyebrows–to keep the peace. As he said, "With malice towards none and charity towards all…"

    Speaking elsewhere about values, he said, "If I do good, I feel good. If I do bad, I feel bad. That's my morality." I interpret that to be about as non-dogmatic and tolerant as you can get.

    The more I study him, the more amazed I am. It is nothing short of a miracle that this uniquely excellent, near superhuman person came along at the exact right moment and without whom the country would undoubtedly have fallen apart.

    Anyway, in matters of negotiation/communication we only gain from imitating Abraham Lincoln.


  96. AlanL,

    Crosman's site doesn't provide the weight of the .20 cal. pellets, so I can't confirm that it's 14.3 gr. I've asked Pyramyd Air's tech support to confirm it. We don't have any .20 cal. Premiers here, so we can't weigh them to give you an average.


  97. Slinging Lead,

    I know the story about the guy who found the lost gold in a Farmer's field. I read about it some time ago on…drum roll please…the Daily Mail's site 🙂


  98. HK,

    derrick38 has already answered your question about power, but I would like to know this: Why would you care about power? Neither of these guns is made for those looking for power. These are for plinking & targets. If power is a concern, you might want to consider other guns.


  99. Edith,

    Thanks. Volvo says it's correct though. Be interesting to hear what Crosman has to say when they come back to you.


    Ahh… a TX200! But still I'm impressed– even with that I couldn't do it!


  100. AlanL,

    If the .20 and .22 cal. Premier both really do weigh 14.3 grains, then that means Crosman took the .22 cal & stretched it so the head & tail became smaller, while redistributing the weight to the waist. Make sense to you?


  101. We're criticizing people because they don't know how to spell? Are you kidding?

    Airguns…love 'em, use 'em, talk about 'em. I don't care if you can spell. Share your knowledge, have fun, make friends, shoot straight, be safe. That's what it's all about 🙂


  102. Edith? You read the Daily Mail? Hmmm… I hope someone's comments about who he thought that "semi-literate tabloid" catered to didn't make you feel – um, uncomfortable…

  103. Everyone has an opinion that they are entitled to. If you can convince others that your opinion is correct, you are a great debater. If you can't, then you are with the majority of people. Argue to your heart's content gentlemen and women but take no offense if you fail to convince the others of the correctness of your position.

    I like to think of the exams in English or (shudder) philosophy where the teacher would tell you, "there is no right or wrong answer. You are being graded on the strength of your argument".

    Boy, do I have a poltically incorrect joke for all you conservatives and Republicans but I do not want to disturb or anger my friends on the blog here who are liberals or Democrats.

    Fred PRoNJ

    WV: PUNTE – that's right, I punted

  104. Vince,

    I don't feel offended by the comments about the Daily Mail. Opinions will be formed. If they're accurate, that's okay. If not, then I can't do anything about them.

    At the ripe old age of almost 62, I guess I'm through trying to impress people with what I do…or don't do.


  105. Edith,

    Precisely. When some who live in glass houses take to throwing stones, they need to understand that there is a risk.

    I trust that the good professor, who had every right to take offence (make that offense!) will come back, and continue to benefit us all with his wisdom.


  106. Crosman Premiers in .20 and .22 cal do indeed both weigh 14.3 grains. The .20 pellet is longer, while the .22 short and squat. Long ago, I saw a BC chart and the .20 cal Premier was the best pellet made in any caliber.

    Orin, the .22 Marauder is a winner. You won't regret buying one.

    HK, I was only kidding about the Pro Sport. It's a fine gun, but the cocking linkage is poorly designed and awkward.
    You might find this odd, but since I normally shoot indoors, I often want less power rather than more. I want just enough velocity to punch clean, easy to score holes in paper targets. More power is nosier and may disturb my wife if she's upstairs watching TV or reading. With my CO2 guns, more power also equates to more CO2 used per shot.

    Just some thoughts.

  107. I like what Fred said a few posts above, but propose to modify it slightly as follows:

    Everyone has an opinion that they are entitled to. If you can convince others that your opinion is correct, you are a great debater. If you can't, then you are with the majority of people. Argue to your heart's content gentlemen and women but take no offense if you fail to convince the others of WHAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE the correctness of your position.

    I say that because there really is no absolute right or wrong in all this stuff – from conservative or liberal, to gun lover or hater. We all pick data we like best and ignore some that we don't. I can argue either side of most of these topics, ans sometimes do depending on the group I'm with. I think the reality is that either side, when carried to the extreme, is equally bad.

    The rest of that quote is dead on – there is no right or wrong, only the strength of one's argument.

    So there is no point in making enemies out of people that clearly are friends.

    Pete Z – stick around. We like you.

    Alan in MI

  108. Edith

    I should have known you knew.


    Muchas Graçias!


    President Lincoln was certainly inspiring, and quite the wordsmith. Some might be surprised to learn he suffered from debilitating depression.

    He once stated that if his sadness could be spread out over all of humanity there would not be one smiling face.

    And he's a good example that Republicans aren't all bad;^)


    I enjoy good humor. What is better, it is nearly impossible to offend me. I'd love to hear your joke. Email me directly if you wouldn't mind.

  109. Edith, I knew that those comments didn't make a dent with you. After all you'd just been through, especially. I was just trying to illustrate something.

    PZ had just alluded to the extreme importance of not making anyone uncomfortable, and he almost immediately followed that with a series of remarks that really sounded like a slam at anyone who likes the DM. As I pointed out he doesn't really believe what he said, and he proved it within the same post.

    In any event I've got no problem with his opinion, nor even with his way of expressing it. But it appeared that he might have been applying – perhaps inadvertently – a double standard. I tend to be (or at least try to be) very intolerant of double standards…

  110. Out working in the backyard today found a 3 to 3-1/2 ft snake skin about 45yds from the house.

    Probably a little over a month ago someone mentioned Heritage Pistols. I went to their site and reviewers mentioned that the .22cal LR/M was a good snake pistol.
    I was just wondering if anyone had any opinions between a pistol and just getting a 410 shotgun.
    I don't plan to spend time hunting for it. I could either carry the pistol or mount the shotgun on my lawn tractor.

  111. rikib,

    I think you missed the humor in the image that probably popped in all our minds – the tractor outfitted like a little tank, out hunting snakes and other vermin . . . maybe we could help design a turet for you?
    Just kidding , of course, but it does sound like fun!

    Alan in MI

  112. rikiB

    I know you have a good sense of humor, and I am almost sure Orin is only joking. The thing that binds men together is their mutual appreciation for things that could easily get them hurt;^)

    I would love to have a lawn tractor, but can't justify it. Even better would be one with a shotgun mount. That is pretty cool.

    You will certainly never be tractor-jacked! (or whatever it's called when you get car jacked for your lawn tractor.)

  113. RikiB,

    Alan and S.L. said it exactly. No sarcasm intended, just a cool idea that gave me a mental picture worth a thousand words.

    Here are some TV series concepts I thought of in the meantime:

    Monster Lawnmower
    Pimp My Rider
    American Chopper (wait – that one's already taken)


    – Orin

  114. RikiB,

    Also, when I spoke of other "undoubtedly bad ideas," I was referring to my own imnagination. I mean, if I could actually convince my wife to let me tractor-mount a shotgun, that would only be the beginning! Anything that followed would probably get me in serious trouble.

    – Orin

  115. BB,Edith and all.
    It is hard to excuse the inexcusable but I will try.
    Since commenting more regurlaly on this site I have managed to create confusion and dis-harmony.
    I have given advice where none was asked for and forced a fellow airgunner(PZ)to respond to a comment I made,which was not related to Air guns at all.
    My comment was political and not necessary to the subject.
    My apology to him was not for my views but for provoking him into feeling he needed to respond.
    My actions have caused arguement amongst good people who share a common interest and that is unforgivable on my part.
    Please all accept my most sincere apologies.
    I hope the goodwill that shone through during recent events concerning our Host BB, will prevail again.
    In light of that,I think it's best for all concerned that I comment no more.
    Best wishes to you all.

  116. Yes I took all of it as a bit of good humor with the shotgun mount on the tractor. I can visualize some of the ideas you may have.
    But no one answered the question. What would you go with, a Heritage .22cal Pistol that you could easily carry or a 410 shotgun. I guess obviously the 410 would require less accuracy.

    As a side note we all need to ask DaveUK not to leave the forum just because of some comments that had been made.


  117. DaveUK,

    It gravely offends me that you want to no longer comment.

    Hmmm, if you're trying not to offend, I'd say that puts you in a bit of a pickle.

    I guess you can't please everyone.


    Are you mowing anything you care about? A 410 will take a much larger chunk out of your lawn than .22 snake shot. But if you're going for the cool factor, the 410 takes it. Shoot, mount both.

    – Orin

  118. DaveUK, relax. If a group of people with a common interest can't have a little verbal frenzy once in a while, well, that's an awful boring group. Ever meet a large family where nobody ever got into an argument? If you did, it was probably a family of turnips.

    Sometimes we (myself as well) get waaayyy too wrapped up in feel-good-isms, and if we inadvertently get up someone's nose we see that as a big personal failure. But that's not necessarily true. If we speak honestly and as truthfully as we can, and if we can take (in good cheer) the extraordinary fact that others might beg to differ, all is well.

    But is there a line? Yes, there is. On an airgun forum years ago I was personally excoriated for some things I said: that Gamo seemed to be having some QC issues at that time, that there was a way of servicing a springer without a spring compressor, and that Rich in Mich sold spring tar and that there were also other adhesive lubricants that might work. For these remarks one of the forum gods took to calling me irresponsible, ignorant, and as having a hidden (and dishonest) agenda of some sort. He didn't challenge my statements with anything of substance. He merely thundered that I was challenging long established truths and that I was misleading others through deception and trickery. Questioning my airgun knowledge and expertise is quite reasonable, but being able to read my mind and my soul – well, needless to say, I haven't been hangin' around there anymore.

    If you want, we can take a vote to see if you're still welcome here…

    I vote 'Yea'.

  119. DaveUK

    I don't know PeteZ, but I sincerely doubt that he wants you to stop contributing to the blog altogether. I doubt that anyone does.

    Viewpoints and observations on the hobby and the marketplace from places other than America are enlightening.

    Alas, you seem to have made up your mind. I will be in touch at any rate.

    Cheers, mate.

    Slinging Lead

  120. Ahh, back in the comfy chair.


    I will forgive you once for questioning a response from me, after that… well let’s just say I won’t be as understanding.
    The simplest way to explain the .22 and .20 caliber Premier is to understand the old pellet making process. A 14.3 grain round lead ball was squeezed into a mold and out came a .22 pellet. When adding the .20 caliber rather than introducing a new size lead ball they simply changed the mold. Now obviously it is narrower as a smaller caliber. Think Pooh think. The .20 caliber CP pellet is simply longer than the .22. Sadly, if I were a pellet I would be the .22.
    More concerning if that Edith is addressing this rather than Tom, I hope all is well.

  121. I'm glad to have had off-list e-mail with both rikib and DaveUK (aka Donkeyscrump) last night. I think they both proved that they were gentlemen, and I surely don't want either to disappear.

    Gurkha knife: sounds wicked. It would also be illegal to own in the UK where, because knives can kill people, they are trying to outlaw knives. There even is a move afoot (or was; maybe it got laughed at) to force people to blunt the tips of cooking knives — no points; just half circles.

    Photo trigger: I just tossed out a 2008 Popular Photography that showed how to do it with a cheap IR trigger; if I can find the magazine in my trash, I'll pass on the citation. I'm still looking for details on the acoustic trigger. With either the trigger has a variable delay, so you can set the flash to go off a few millisec after the pellet passes the trigger and when the pellet is where you want it. An acoustic trigger goes off with the pop from the gun; an air gun blast may not be quite sharp enough in time to work easily; I've only seen sonic triggering with firearms. That said, international air gun matches are always scored with acoustic targets that take their cue from the pellet passing through a target paper.

    Then there was the spring after the winter when I had stored my riding lawnmower outside. When I pulled the cover, there was a nest of moccasin hatchlings. Fortunately the little things must have frozen to death because they weren't wiggling. A mounted shotgun couldn't have pointed at them, but I would have wished.

    Edith, I didn't mean to cause offense, but I really do want to participate and to feel comfortable. As to things on the Daily Mail site, well, sometimes they do have good things, but not so many. And at 62 you are just a sprout of a girl compared to some of us. I'm almost 69.


  122. rikiB

    When I am mowing the lawn, I like to travel light. Carrying a gun doesn't appeal to me. Just another thing to make me sweaty. I would go with the shotgun, with tractor mount.

    Full disclosure, I own none of the three things mentioned.

  123. Another quote. Had to change to a different author. Received an email telling me that I needed to read more about "G. Orwell" before quoting him further.

    "Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand."
    Mark Twain

    Not cutting anything I care about. Dogs see to that, holes everywhere. Have a lot of natural fertilizer though, green lawn year around.

  124. Liebherr stunt:

    If anybody cares, the building is the city hall in Vienna, Austria, and the TV show is "Wetten dass" which roughly means "Make a bet".


  125. PeteZ and Donkeyscrump and Rikib,
    Good show — just because we disagree doesn't mean we can't learn something from each other. My own views have been known to change, albeit at a glacial pace and after much hee-hawing, based on experience and arguments. Unfortunately for some, the change tends predominantly toward the right:).

    I read that the UK is thinking about banning glass mugs in their pubs to prevent bar brawls. I can't remember where I saw it, but I don't think it was a joke. Strangely, none of the people I knew from the UK (and at one point it was a good many) seemed like the types that would have loved this kind of idea.

  126. DaveUK,
    You are not allowed to stop participating here. When I read your comments, my brain hears an accent like when Charlie has his finger bitten by his brother. That brings a smile to my face. I also appreciate the insight and perspective of someone from so far away.

  127. Matt,
    I appreciate your concession about the crows, but I was hoping to debate it. Perhaps, however, it is better we didn't: As Ionesco has the maid say, philology leads to disaster:).

  128. PeteZ

    Thanks for the info. I meant to comment on this incredible footage from Alan, but forgot.

    Wetten dass? That sounds like something a baby has when it needs its diaper changed! It also sounds like one of blogger's word verifications.

  129. Matt61 ,
    I hope I did not scar you with my tale of the baby bunny and his ill fated run in with the murderous crows. At the least, rest easy that he was avenged with great prejudice.

  130. Thank you all so much for your forgivness.
    Orin has a good point.
    Too ignore such kindness is an insult in itself.
    Do believe I will put the good of the forum above all else henceforth.
    I am away tommorow for a short break on the east coast in a caravan.
    Bad weather,bad food and a cramped bed will lighten my mood no doubt:)
    many,many thanks.

  131. Volvo,

    You are right, I must have my capitulum examined, to have dared to question you. But I plead as very tenuous extenuating circumstance Edith's doubt and offer of verification. (Edith stand by me, STAND BY ME!!!!)

    It makes sense, just stretch the pellet. By the way, if you're the .22, I'm a .44, and in the length of the .177 by comparison!

    Volvo, where is your story of the crows and the bunny? I missed it.


    If you like Lincoln, I can highly recommend Gore Vidal's 'Lincoln'. I could not put it down. I know, it is only a novel, but very well researched and as true to life as a historical novel can get. His treatment of the runup to the moment when Lincoln gave his Gettysburg Address looking out over that incredible killing field brought tears to my eyes.

    Also look at his 'Burr'. It is a fascinating (and not very flattering) portrait of Thomas Jefferson (not to mention Alexander Hamilton.) I could suggest so many more, but this is not really the place to do it.
    AbeBooks.com is a great place to find out of print new and used books.


  132. DaveUK,

    Back already?

    Dude, that was weak. If you're going to threaten to leave, you should at least maintain the bluff longer than that.

    Let's play some poker. 🙂

    – Orin

  133. AlanL,
    I have not shared stories on the blog like I use to for about a year and a half, so the comment Matt61 is referring to is from some time ago. Perhaps when life slows down with the curve balls I will post more than a quick remark here and there.


    Download the chairgun software in the top right corner if you don’t already have it.

  134. BobbyNations,

    Thanks. That is a lot of excellent information.


    Indeed– and without any safety harnesses of any kind! What about that reporter and camera guy who stand directly underneath and film looking straight up?


  135. Donkyscrump,
    Please stick around and don't leave us because of a few words. It sounds like you're planning to leave us on a sour note and I for one don't really want to see you go. If you have to leave let's find a better reason. You have made some good comments, you know. Stick around, shrug it off, and continue to share. That goes for you, too, PZ.


  136. AlanL,
    Do you suppose that operator had his apprentice bring it back down? Also, If I were in the photog business I think I'd have several remote cameras to draw on.


  137. Bobby Nations,
    If I see him while mowing I'll try an run him down. A lot of times I just bring the tractor down back with a wagon full of gardening tools.
    Sorry to take so long to reply. Was reading about Bond Arms Snake Slayer 410 pistols. Anyone know of them?

  138. Slinging Lead
    This questions may be best answered by you, being that you also live in Georgia but anyone can respond. I know some laws vary by county. What I was wondering (if I can word this properly) is, I can go to Wal-Mart and buy a shotgun of any gauge here with no problem. If I were to purchase a pistol that shoots 410 shotgun shells would I need a license. Not interest conceal carry, but just to have it at my home. Thanks.

  139. Subject change:

    Friday night for the first time since neck surgery I shot a target that scored at 90 in 10 meter air pistol using an FWB C-20, R-10 pistol pellets, and a Kruger target. A personal best.

    Then last night I shot for group and control and did 40 rounds that stayed in the 8 ring or better, save for 4 sevens. I credit my surgeon for restoring the nerve in the right arm that controls the trigger finger.

    For logistical and legal reasons, all my shooting is 10 m ISSF rules these days, and likely to stay so.


  140. DaveUK,

    Not comment anymore? Please reconsider. Everyone has said things they regret. Everyone has said things that don't align with the feelings, thoughts, ideas, beliefs or views of others. If everyone stopped posting because they said something that might have offended a person, we wouldn't have any comments on this blog. Heck, we wouldn't even have a blog!

    Speak your mind. Believe in what you say. Be honest, be considerate, be understanding. Body language can't be seen in type, so we have to communicate in a slightly different way that accurately portrays what we want to say but doesn't deliver a harsher or different message than we intended. You're an important voice on this blog, and I don't want to lose your input, knowledge or advice.


  141. Was there ever a part 2 to this? I'm interested in purchasing a Benjamin Marauder in .25 caliber. The reviews on the PA site speak highly of it.
    Had heard at one time that .25 caliber pellets aren't as accurate as some others. I would love to see this report finished. Thanks.


  142. Shawn,

    Yes, there's a part 2 over on the new blog. We moved Pyramyd Air's airgun blog to its new site at the Airgun Academy:



  143. Shawn,

    That Edith is a fast one. I had a heck of a time finding part 2.


    Doesn't appear that part 3 (accuracy testing of the .25 caliber marauder was ever published).

    I have a shooting friend that has a .25 caliber marauder. It is a very accurate gun. We regularly shoot it at 50 yards (targets) and he hunts prairie dogs regularly with it out to 100 yards.

    It only gets 2 mags of shots but since it's his hunting gun he doesn't care.


  144. Yeah, it was the accuracy part that was missing. I remember Benjamin releasing the new pellet to go along with this caliber. Is it one of the more accurate pellets in .25?

    It would be overkill for squirrels in the blueberry bushes but it's fun when my brother stops by just shooting air rifles in the backyard.


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