by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier
Gamo P900 IGT air pistol
This report covers:
• Accuracy testing
• RWS Hobby pellets
• Trigger control
• Shot cycle
• Gamo Match pellets
• Gamo Raptor PBA pellets
• Air Arms Falcon pellets
• What’s the verdict?
Let’s look at the accuracy of the Gamo P900 IGT air pistol. Several of you have wondered if this is the air pistol you’ve been waiting for — today, we’ll see.
Accuracy testing
I shot the pistol off a rest at 10 meters. I rested my hands on a sandbag and held the pistol away from the bag with a two-hand hold. I used a 6 o’clock hold sight picture, which is more difficult to do with a bead fiberoptic front sight. But the target was brightly lit, and the firing point was in the dark; so, the fiberoptics did not illuminate, nor did the strange yellow rear sight blade cause any problems.
All pellets were deeply seated with the Air Venturi Pellet Pen and Seater. You may remember that we discovered this pistol likes them seated deeply during the velocity test.
RWS Hobby pellets
The first pellet I tried was the RWS Hobby wadcutter that did so well in the velocity test. The first pellet landed to the left of the bull at about 7 o’clock, so I stopped looking and just shot the rest. Alas, when I was finished, the 10 shots had scattered over 1.724 inches. It looked more like a shotgun pattern than a group. Obviously, Hobbys are not the right pellet for this pistol.
Ten RWS Hobbys went into this 1.724-inch group at 10 meters. Despite being shot from a rest, this is not a good pellet for the pistol.
Trigger control
I find the trigger easy to operate. Stage 2 breaks relatively crisply and doesn’t take that much effort. As I said in Part 2, it’s a fine trigger.
Shot cycle
The P900 has a smooth shot cycle that’s quick and almost without vibration. It also doesn’t make much noise when it discharges. It just sits in your hand and pulses quietly with each shot. I know it has a gas spring, but it doesn’t have any of the usual drawbacks (hard cocking, stiff jolt upon firing, loud crack upon discharge, etc.) that I can see.
Gamo Match pellets
Next up were 10 Gamo Match wadcutters. Since this is a Gamo gun, I figured…why not? These pellets landed more in the center of the bull and also held a tighter group that measures 1.167 inches between centers. This is about what I expected the P900 to do.
Ten Gamo Match wadcutters went into this 1.167-inch group at 10 meters. This is more like it.
Gamo Raptor PBA pellets
Because I tried them in the velocity test, I figured I had to also try the Gamo Raptor PBA pellets for accuracy. I didn’t expect much, because I have seen Raptors do well only in one pistol so far — a smoothbore Marksman 1010. For some reason, they were better than any other pellet in that pistol when I tested it. But in the P900, they went into a group measuring 1.946 inches — the largest of this test.
Ten Gamo Raptor PBA pellets made this 1.946-inch group at 10 meters. This is the largest group of the test.
Air Arms Falcon
I thought I would give one more pellet a chance, so I tried the Air Arms Falcon dome. It’s light, at 7.3 grains, and it’s often among the most accurate pellets for a given gun. This time, they made the second-best 10-shot group, at 1.256 inches between centers. While that’s larger than I’d like to see, the pellets are nicely centered on the bull.
Ten Air Arms Falcon pellets went into this 1.256-inch group at 10 meters. It’s the second best group of the test and also nicely centered on the bull.
Of course, there’s no way to know if I’ve found the best pellets for the pistol without testing a lot of other brands. An owner would do that, of course.
What’s the verdict?
The P900 is a pleasant air pistol. It’s lightweight, holds well and has a nice trigger. The odd sights are easy to use, too. Take my results as typical; and if they satisfy you, this is a nice air pistol.
I’ll remember the value of seating pellets in lower powered guns that this blog taught us.How much barrel do you suppose is left to guide the pellet in this gun after deep seating. In regards to Gamo’s pellets my Daisies( how else would you spell it?)did not like them at all,I had to tear down both my 953 & 880 to clear the jams and modify to prevent more. I won’t discount them all-together but will think twice before shooting them in a gun that’s not easy to clear jams, also one of them almost pierced one.
Back in 2009 I bought a tin of Gamo pellets from PA. Every pellet in that tin had “wings” from the mold. Some of the wings were large enough that you could not load the pellets. I found one where the wings were about 3/4″ wide. All I could figure is that this tin was filled with the culls. PA was nice enough to send me a tin of the pellets of my choice. I have been a regular customer of theirs ever since. I also have not purchased any Gamo pellets since.
And i’ll bet if you coulda shot ’em they all woulda been flyers. . 😀
Thanks BB! I might have to try one of these out one day. It will probably be perfect for killing those feral soda cans I keep seeing running around here.
The Gamo Rocket with the gold bb on the front are the best pellets by far I can buy locally. My son’s gun likes CPL in the box and my rifle likes JSB heavys. The rockets group well in both guns however. On top of that they are the undisputed champ of every terminal ballistic test we’ve ran. For a .177 pellet they penetrate and expand well. They’re a little over kill for feral cans of both the soda or beer variety but do wonders on small targets with a heart beat. I’d recommend giving them a try.
For giggles I might have to try them out some day, but in .177 I am not concerned with penetration and expansion. I am building up a Talon SS for that purpose. I might start it out as a .25 but it will likely end up as a .30.
I’ve never heard of a .30 airgun but I’m intrigued. I desperately in want of a pcp to replace much of my rimfire work load and dependency on factory ammo but I can’t decide what to get. I was two days away from ordering a .25 Marauder when the review of the similar Hatasan posted, that made me take a second look. Then a couple days later there was the guest blog reviewing a believe a BSA pcp and that caught my eye as well. Wow, I just realized I have to get on a plane next time there is an airgun show. Every fire arm I’ve bought in the last 20 years I’ve known excactley which one I wanted. Ridge Runner, why a Talon and not a Condor for the bigger caliber?
Ben,
Come to the Ft. Worth airgun show on September 6. The show info is linked at the top right of this page.
B.B.
I won’t make that show. I’ll either be chasing bulls or buttoning up jobs to go chase bulls. And I figured out my attraction to this blog. I believe most airgunners are shooters where a lot of gun owners just like to own guns. I despise people that have many guns and aren’t proficient with any of them. A guy buys a pellet gun to shoot pellets first not show it off to his friends.
Ben,
I believe, for the most part you are right I have pellet guns so I can shoot anytime I want,No loading up a buncha guns and driving 10 minutes to 2 hours to reach a place where you can shoot and no range fees.The last time I bought .22 lr It was $10+ per person followed by 2 hours of cleaning because the ammo didn’t burn clean enough to let them sit, even overnight.I still own firearms but now that I live in the city limits I have no opportunity to enjoy them.
Reb
I shoot fire arms frequently as well. The shooting part is what it’s all about to me. Both the zen moments of marksmanship, the frustration, the satisfaction when you get a gun fitted and tuned just right. And to be honest, I like my fire arms considerably more than my air rifles. This might change a bit after I get my hands on a couple quality air rifles. I need a good pcp right now and a TX200 is my plan for the winter. Airguns are just nice to shoot and have sharpened my marksmanship skills better than any other practice I can remember. I’d be shooting now but my strong hand is injured and down for at least a couple more weeks.
I realize it’s a bit farther from your beat, but way out west, where there’re many a gun show, I don’t remember seeing something specifically air powered…so to speak.
Anything you know of coming up this year?
103David,
The California airgun show has already been held this year. It’s held in SoCal, I believe around Orange County and I think it was in March.
B.B.
For one thing, I have a Talon SS frame. It also has the same valve/tank as the Condor so all I have to do is put whatever barrel I want in it. If I was to buy one new, I personally would go with the Condor SS, however I do not recommend such to a PCP beginner.
From what you have said, I would recommend the .25 Marauder. It will likely do well for replacing the .22 rimfires. You can also later upgrade with a LW barrel and do even better. There are also those who are upgrading their Marauders to .30. Maybe Crosman will bring one out soon.
FX and Daystate have a .30 out right now. Maybe BSA will follow suit.
After you have a year or two of shooting the Marauder, then take a look at the Condor SS or whatever AirForce has out then. They are working on a big bore (.50) right now. Hopefully they will be able to bring it to market this next year.
I advise you to get out now while you still can.
I appreciate the advice. I’ve got to quit flopping and get the marauder. If there was a store where I could go look at all of them and mabey even fire one I’d already have one. Also I didn’t know there were even after market barrles available. I wouldn’t have figured that, I burn a barrel every 2000 in my rifle but I’m running that hotter than Mad Max’s squad car. I never imagined replacing an air rifle barrel.
The LW barrel is a better barrel than what Crosman makes. Also, a popular barrel is made by TJ Barrels. You have probably heard of them.
Ben,
Dennis Quackenbush is a legend when it comes to building big bore airguns. Utilitarian and affordable.
The best long range, big bore accuracy I’ve seen is from a .30 cal (.309 sizer) Beaumont Warrior shooting 150 grain cast bullets at 940 fps (muzzle). Unfortunately you could have a custom made Kelbly Match Rifle for what a Beaumont Warrior airgun costs.
kevin
Ben,If I may also suggest the Marauder in either 22 or 25 cal.For hunting as a first PCP.I can tell you the 22 will not disappoint on paper or flesh.Then consider a Hawk Sidewinder scope for this deadly accurate airgun.Together they make sweet music,if you can hear it. And the 22.cal loves 18 grn.JSBs.Just a serving suggestion.
Ben, I have a .25cal Marauder synthetic stock and LOVE it, but Shot count is a consideration whether you’ll be hunting or target shooting. Your gonna need to feed it lot’s of air and pellets and use a good scope. BUT there are many quality PCP’s to choose from so ask away whenever and good luck on whatever you choose.
Keep your eyes on Hatsan. I believe they’re about to pull a few more tricks outta their bag.
For the exact same price, I would say anyone looking at this gun strongly consider the Crosman 2240 as well. Yes, it’s a CO2-powered .22, but you get more velocity, less recoil, way more muzzle energy (feral beer cans, watch out!), and significantly better accuracy. Main plus with the Gamo that I could see was the trigger.
Yeah, I agree with you. Or a 1377, or a 2289, or a Beeman P-17, or a…it’s a long list.
For some reason, I have really wanted to like the gas ram pistols, but so far they’re just not doing it for me.
I am interested in the gas spring itself. It is a lower powered gas spring that might be ideal for converting a rifle to something real easy to plink with. Perhaps Gamo should seriously consider a youth rifle with this gas spring.
Benjamin trail np pistol!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One hole accurate, better power, looks, I LOVE that pistol.
I know, if you can’t say anything nice……BUT,
This would go well with flying cars with robot maids in the passenger seat, but otherwise Gamo needs to keep George Jetson outta the design office.
I haven’t seen that kind of ugly since the mother-in-law last visited.
After part 2 of this review, I thought about getting one of these…then I remembered that I had my Crosman 1322. Talk about a versatile pistol! I’ve had fancier spring powered pistols, but the 1322 seems to cover a broad range off applications, not only because it can be pumped anywhere from 3-10 times, but also because (like the 2240) it is easy to mod. Thanks to part 2, I was inspired to dust it off and poke holes in some paper last weekend.
I have seen in your tests that sometimes while deep seating a pellet improves velocity, it doesn’t help accuracy. I am very interested if, in this case, not deep seating the pellet might have given us better results. Just a thought as I’m not asking you to spend anymore time on this gun. However, if someone out there buys or already owns this gun, I’d love to see if there is a difference in how the pellets are seated.
Fred DPRoNJ
Fred,
I wondered that as well. Tell you what I will do. I will shoot this gun at 10 meters the next time I am shooting something else at that distance and if there is a difference I’ll do a Part 4. If not, I will just tell you. Same pellets, I think.
B.B.
A little off-topic, but I see that the NP2 is now back in stock and available for purchase from PA. No push though from PA or Crosman. I wonder if any components or manufacturing processes were changed or if Crosman simply emphasized proper assembly and inspection?
I’m considering giving the NP2 another chance. The only question in my mind is whether to try one from Batch#2 or be more patient and wait for a few more bugs to be worked out. Surely Batch#2 has been carefully assembled — but then that’s what I thought about Batch#1.
Gordon Buck,
That’s what I was thinking about the NP2’s! If anyone’s interested in getting one it might pay to brush up on which serial #’s belong to which batch.
Reb
Gordon,
I still have one more review to do on the NP2. So stay tuned.
B.B.
Thanks, B.B. Waiting patiently (well, attempting to be patient).
I, for one, would certainly appreciate some sort of statement from Crosman.
I just got some good news that all you Michigan people want to know. January 1, 2015 Michigan is removing all the ridiculous air pistol restrictions. No more registering it. No more background checks to buy a pellet firing bb gun. No more treating it as a real fire arm with pistol permits and all that other stuff. We can treat a pellet pistol as a pellet pistol because republicans in Lansing decided that was foolish and told the gun banning lobby as much. So January 1 Pyramyd AIR can ship any pellet pistol to us we want. Here’s what I have on it.
https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2013-2014/billanalysis/Senate/pdf/2013-SFA-0979-S.pdf
Ouch…
Paint I can understand, but filled with pain???
Ah, good
That should clarify my intended 10m basement airgun range, as the only way to cross the property line would require shooting through the 8×16″ window (which is already a sheet of plywood).
Yeah, I caught the “pain” part. Nobody seems to check their spelling. But the point is they are going to deregulate pellet pistols in Michigan so no more pistol permits and background checks and I can order some I always wanted but were too much of a pain to get. I wasn’t about to go through more paperwork to get a pellet pistol than I had to for my 1911.
That is not what I got from reading the actual bill.
The bill
1) gives a firm definition of an air gun (includes paintball)
2) applies STATE PRE-EMPTION over local laws for regulation of air guns
3) explicitly states that air guns may be used on private property if reasonable efforts are made to prevent the projectile from crossing the property line.
Note that #2 doesn’t do anything for the existing state requirements regarding registration of pellet pistols, et al.; it merely blocks smaller (city/county/township) units from applying more restrictive regulations to air guns.
As far as I’m concerned, the only real effect is #3 (currently, the city of Kentwood basically says smoothbore BB guns are allowed practically anywhere, while the city of Lowell makes firing a BB gun in one’s basement a violation of law — much less something like an AirForce Condor).
Also — as of my check today — the bill is still in the judiciary committee; hasn’t had even a basic vote much less pass to the House. The bill to do away with the county concealed pistol boards (basically putting the entire Ack/Nak onto the MSP) and dropping the filing fee to $90 from $105 has at least passed the Senate.
The bill would amend Public Act 319 of 1990
,
which prohibits local units of government from taxing or regulating the ownership,
registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms.
So no more airgun prohibitions. But we will see what happens.
Look up the definition of “local units”… It comes to smaller than the state level…
“The Act defines ‘local unit of government’ as a city, village, township, or county.”
That implies ALL STATE LEVEL regulations remain in effect.
B.B.,
I don’t know about your experience with R10 and H&N Match Pistol pellets but one of these 2 is almost always the most accurate pellet in my .177cal pistols. I would think they would always be on the list of pellets to try in pistols first. Especially at 10 meters. Just my opinion.
G&G
G&G,
I share your experience with both pellets in target guns and guns of high quality like the Beeman P1. In the lower cost guns, though, I’m not sure these pellet make that much difference.
B.B.
B.B.,
I suppose that’s true. If I had this pistol I’d still be using R10’s or H&N’s. Main reason is that’s mostly what I have for pistols. I don’t keep too much else in stock. However, I have also used JSB 8.44 grain pellets with much success.
G&G
I think you have one or both problemsin this gamo, one, check the crown, at ten meters you could get better groups with straw and spitballs, and two, did pellets feel loose going in? Possibly an oversized bore, find large diam. pellets or let the bore fill in with some good soft lead pellets. Maybe try another one if you don’t feel like crowning it.
At least it should be a good can plinker. And it sounds like its nice to shoot. Just wish they would of made a place to mount a sight.
Yeah! that oughtta be a Big DUH moment!
Gunfun
I bet you thought I had got lost in a mound of lead and numbers. I finally got my 50 yard sighting and shooting done yesterday and today. First here is a link to the 40 buck springer I got off gun broker that air gun depot has on sale now as a refurbished gun.
https://www.airgundepot.com/refurbished-firepower-fp1-177-cal-air-rifle.html
The firepower shooting Crosman premiers from wally world in the tins at 7.9 gr shooting 50 yards put ten pellets in just an inch groups ( could cover with a quarter) as long as I did my part. I was trying different holds while shooting off a lift arm with lead bags as a bench rest. I found that at 50 yards you had to let the gun move as it wanted with a artillery hold, but in my backyard it is not as picky on the hold, most likely due to the shorter distance the pellet travels. Overall I was quite happy with the springer as it was putting decent dent in the metal backing of the eraser board I was using as a target holder, and when the pellets hit the same hole twice it would put a hole through the metal. Definitely enough power to kill a small varmints at that range.
Now for the real testing with the Hatsan at 50 yards and then 30 yards without adjusting the scope sighting just the AO setting. I sighted it with the Crosman Premiers from wally world tin at 14.3 gr because that is the pellet I will use most of the time in my back yard. The gun was refilled to 2900 psi after each 20 shoots and averaged from 2900 psi to 2000 psi for 20 shoots.
CPs 14.3= high 1035 fps, low 1019 fps, avg 1025 fps with a .650″ group size, best of all pellets tested.
JSB jumbos 18/13 gr= high 966.6, low 930.6, avg 948.0,.795″ group, with 1 mil dot hold over, 3rd best.
H&N field target 16.76 gr= high 990.9, low 954.1 avg 976.3, .867″ group, with 1/2 mil dot hold over, 4 best.
H&N hollow point 12.65 gr= 1078, low 1052, avg 1064, 1.103″ group, with 1 mil dot hold under, to many flyer’s and not accurate due to being to light and in transonic range most likely.
H&N barracuda 21.4 gr= high 908.0, low 879.0 avg 892.7, .1.146″ group with 1 mil dot hold over, 5th best
RWS hollow points 14,2 gr= high 1051, low 1033, avg 1043, 1.210′ group at zero POI, another not accurate with several flyer’s’
H&N rabbit magnum 25.62 gr= high 867.4, low 834.7, avg 853.8, .725″ group with 1 mil dot hold over, 2nd best, very impressed with this pellet.
I could not shoot the poly or metal mags because they are to long to fit in the mags. the point sticks out past the front of mag, real bummer as I really wanted to be able to use them in the hatsan. Will have to make a single shot tray for them with out a doubt.
The 30 yard testing was just to see how much difference from 50 to 30 the hold over or under would be and the CPs, rabbit magnums and JSB jumbos were pretty much dead zero. the rest were no more than 1/2 mil dot at max at best. I was starting to get tired and my eyes were going out of focus at times so I quit after ten shot of each pellet at 30 yards. This gun is a power house as it did not matter which pellet I shot they all blew holes thru the metal eraser board and by the end of the session there were four 3 inch sized holes in the metal from all the shooting. I also like the hawke sidewinder as I could see the pellets right before they hit the target at 50 yards and could quickly adjust hold over or under to get in the black 2 inch bulls of my target. this gun will stop varmints and turkeys at 50 yards all day long, and with a well placed shot with the rabbit magnums would kill a small deer easily. I was able to get forty shoots before any significant drop in velocity was noted. I just only shoot 20 per fill to get a better evaluation with out any real velocity drops being a factor. The shot strings do not seem to have a curve to them as you get 40 shots with no more than a 10 fps difference with any pellet.
I am very happy with this gun and it is whisper quiet with the moderator on it, you hear the trigger and the hammer hit the valve and then the smack on the target. happy happy happy .
Buldawg
buldawg
Sounds like that 40 buck break barrel is a winner. And I want to know if it holds up. Sorry but you know that goes with those bargain type guns. If it holds up for you I will maybe give one a try.
And your Hatsan is shooting just like my .25 cal Marauder is as far as hold over goes or under goes. It will use up a hair over a 1/2 mil dot when it shoots 50 yrds and under. Now my .177 Marauder is another story. It can hold a 1/2 mil dot and under always when it shoots at 50 yards and under. Well closer to a 1/4 mil dot.
And I think them Hawke scopes help out also for some reason. But one thing I don’t think you said is what power you had the scope set on. 10x’s, 6x’s or did I miss that? And is the Hawke scope clear enough for you?
Gunfun
Yea the 40 buck is still holding up, I did some research on it and it is a rebranded Crosman quest 1000X break barrel, The schematic for the 1000x is exactly the same as the firepower and one good thing is that a GRTIII trigger will drop right into the gun and I believe will make it much better of a shooter. the trigger in it is fairly smooth but is not real distinct when it will break and a GRTIII trigger will help that and make it much easier to shoot. At least if it does fail I can get parts easily for it from Crosman.
I had the Hawke scope on 10 power on all the testing and it is very clear and I definitely like the 1/2 mil dot reticle for sure. it is going to take more time with it to improve my shooting skill for sure, toward the end of my testing I was getting tired and it was affecting my aiming. We started at 9:30 AM and ended at 1:00 PM so I think the last couple of 10 shot strings could have been a little better if I was not wearing down. The last group was with the heavy Rabbit magnums and I think I could have gotten even better group with them if I had shot them earlier in the session although they still were second best. I like the power of the heavier pellets for sure. A lot of why I tired so fast was my 5k burst disc blew on my 68 CI tank Tuesday night at 4200 or 4300 psi again so I had to pump the gun up between 20 shot strings. I am going to get my fire extinguisher buddy to fill it with his equipment to see if the gauge on my hand pump and bottle are off. I have put a solid spacer in the regulator to prevent the valve from moving so I can fill the gun slowly to the 2900 psi without the reg trying to hinder the pressure and that may have something to do with it.
I know you use a small bottle to fill your guns with, do you have a reg on the bottle or how do you connect from bottle to gun. I am using a paintball type tether system with a foster female quick connect for the gun and then open the threaded knob on the adapter that threads on the bottle to fill the gun. If you use a regulator due you have it set to a specific pressure. let me know how you fill from your small bottle or what you think may be wrong.
Buldawg
buldawg
I just wrote you a reply and it didnt post. I will have to do it over again later unless Edith can find where it went.
GF1,
Nothing in the spam folder. Looks like it never made it thru.
Edith
Ok thanks Edith I will try again.
Gunfun
I did not get your reply and Edith stated it never showed up in the spam folder. bummer I will wait till you get a chance to send again.
Buldawg
buldawg I will post at the bottom in a minute or so ok.
BB – how old were those Gamo Match pellets?
Vince,
A couple years.
B.B.
Any idea if these are the newer or older production pellets?
Vince,
I suspect they are older, but I’m not sure.
B.B.
BB, it looks to me like most of the pellets in this article are hitting the targets sideways???
davee1,
It does look that way.
B.B.
davee1,
Just a reminder that in shooting jargon that is known as keyholing. It sort of looks like a keyhole.
G&G
He he…I knew that. Its been so long since I used that word it escaped me. Thanx for the reminder.
Back from Hawaii and bursting with gun information. By the way the sunny mountains are really picturesque when viewed through the sights of an M1 Garand. The lighting is perfect just as B.B. specified with bright lights on the target and shadow around my indoor position. Very scenic.
Taking Mike’s advice after a few years, I finally fired an M4 at an indoor shooting range and can finally write a review of this rifle. Basically all my impressions were borne out. The rifle is astoundingly accurate and a real joy to shoot. Firing offhand just short of 25 yards, I was pinwheeling palm-sized targets. Along the way, I had a revelation. This rifle feels EXACTLY like my IZH 61 right down to the bazooka-style position of the buttstock high on the shoulder. I doubt that any airgun feels more similar and none at such a low price. So, I’ve been training with the AR rifle all along. And the accuracy results indicate that there is a transfer to firearms skill and that the practice was not just an airgun dream. I’m encouraged to think that my offhand problems with the Anschutz are based on the target-style reticle.
As for the reliability, I double-fed the rifle the first-time I loaded it. But I have to admit that the first time I operated the Garand mechanism, I got an M1 thumb and got hit in the face with the ejecting clip. After the initial problem, the gun fed 100 rounds with remarkable smoothness and complete reliability, and as a rental gun, I doubt it gets cleaned very often. Still, inside the shooting range amounted to laboratory conditions and was not anything like a torture test. The gun also felt extremely fragile. Every time I operated the release on the charging handle, it felt like the handle was breaking although it held up. Anyway, overall the experience seemed to validate armchair generals and readers of gun magazines.
The ergonomics, though, were a new and revealing. I suppose the major feature here is the straight line stock designed to minimize recoil. But since this requires you to position the buttstock high on the shoulder in an unstable position, a lot of the benefit seems to be undercut. With the aid of the very light caliber, its a workable system, but I wouldn’t call these ergonomics a strong point. On the other hand, if the buttstock was held lower without a cheek weld in a more tactical position and equipped with an elevated optical sight, all consistent with the assault rifle concept, maybe it would feel better. I couldn’t understand the rationale for the controls. The M1 and AK has the charging handle, safety and (for the AK) the magazine release all on one side of the rifle. The AR has divided these controls on two sides of the receiver without any advantage that I can see. I suspect this configuration has led to the abomination of reaching over and around the AK to charge the rifle with the offhand when it was meant to be done by the trigger hand. And with the hands enmeshed in the pistol grip and the accessories and the rifle’s overall fragile build, the AR looks to be at a serious disadvantage in hand-to-hand combat with any of the WWII rifles. Anyway, ergonomics seems to be a very complex topic. While the AR has a number of very good ergonomic ideas, it seems misleading to me to call it an overall ergonomic rifle.
In other news, Lauren is enjoying her airguns so much that she barely has time to write, but she was very impressed with the power of the Crosman 1377 on even one pump. That is a bit of a surprise with her firearms background, but it does seem to alleviate the disadvantages of multiple pumps.
Vince, thanks for your thoughts on the Saiga. Unfortunately, the internet, especially on this topic, is a morass of conflicting claims and biases. Your impressions are consistent with the most credible information. Also it seems like the latest round of sanctions against Russia has prohibited all imports of the Saiga. 🙁
Back to my fictional monster. Gunfun1, that is a good question about whether it can leap. That isn’t really stated in the description, and we have to infer. It is smart as a human, strong as a grizzly bear, and swift as a greyhound. This seems to suggest straight line speed based on raw power but not a lot of leaping ability because of its heavy build. On the other hand, the thing is highly unpredictable and extremely capable so it would be wise not to count to much on an inability to leap. There was a news story awhile ago about how a tiger got free of some zoo in California by leaping a trench which designers thought was beyond its capabilities.
Anyway, I’ll put my cards on the table which was the subject of a post that unfortunately didn’t get through before I left. I discarded my earlier weapons and equipped myself with full body armor including a helmet since the thing likes to consume the hypothalamus which is a part of the brain in the back of the head. I reluctantly discarded the BAR, the Barrett .50 BMG semiauto rifle, and the full-auto AA-12 shotgun after consideration. What I finally settled on was a Tommy gun with a 70 round drum with multiple spares. What can withstand the direct knockdown power of a Tommy gun. I base this in part on a horror movie from the 50s featuring an invasion of giant ants. Down in the sewers, a National Guardsman emptied his Tommy gun right into the face of an advancing ant which caused it to fall back, beating the air with its forelegs. I also relaxed the restrictions in order to arm myself with a brace of hand grenades. This was to employ Stalingrad-style close quarters battle tactics. Heave grenades around corners and into rooms and then spray them with the Tommy gun. Nothing like getting a bit of human ingenuity on my side. This will take care of the empty rooms and angles in the underground area where the creature lurks and ambushes its prey.
While reloading the Tommy gun, I would also have a SW .500 mag revolver handy. The recoil gave me some concern, but I figure that adrenaline would take care of that in the heat of the moment. While leading a countercharge on Guadalcanal, Marine Sergeant Mitchell Paige carried a Browning heavy machine gun all by himself, and since the water had run out, he was holding the hot barrel right against his arm. He wasn’t even aware of his burns until he lit a cigarette after the fighting was over. He was completely freaked out which may explain his Medal of Honor.
Anyway, that was my plan. Tell me your idea, and I’ll tell you how it worked out in the novel.
Matt61
“Them” starring James Whitmore. Loved it as 50’s sci-fi horror movies went.
Fred DPRoNJ
The tiger story really happened. Probably about five or six years ago at the San Francisco Zoo. You can surely find the story on line with a more factual info, but the reality makes for a very interesting story with even more interesting life lessons for those with the fundamental intelligence to appreciate them.
Scene: SF Zoo, closing time, most zoo-goers have left for the day, but there remains two or three basically rotten 20 something, petty criminals that have decided it’s great fun to tease a tiger by throwing stuff at it, thoroughly pissing the tiger off.
Really.
Having demonstrated a truly amazing level of rank stupidity, the survivors later divulged they had thought it safe to do so as the tiger was on the far side of a 12 foot deep dry moat.
Problem with the strategy, however.
(As a momentary aside, I spent several years working at a pretty large animal park in the Bay Area. B.B. likely knows it, as it was pretty close, in time and distance to his Marshaling days at Frontier Village. Every single day at work, I’d interact with Lions, and Tigers, and Bears, Oh My! I learned just enough know how haplessly helpless a human is versus a pissed-off Tiger.)
They’re absolutely and totally focused on their target, which makes them, in effect, smarter than this crowd of fools.
They’re unimaginably powerful and lethal to a level that a human can only comprehend as they die.
And, an adult Tiger, from a dead stop, can jump 15 feet straight up in the air, hook a paw-claw on the edge of a 12 foot moat, and…
Well, you can guess what happened next.
They’d have done better facing a Terminator.
One dead human, and unfortunately, ultimately a dead Tiger.
Among other aspects, the designers of the Zoo knew about this little problem…
Well, those are the highlights of the story. Look it up, it makes interesting reading.
Matt
Im going to stick with the way I try to do things. Simple but effective.
If that creature is aggressive as wild animals can be when they are threatened I think I would rely on the beast killing it self with its own power.
Or I should say with the help of its own power. The reason I wanted to know if it could jump was because I have a helicopter in mind. And didn’t you say it was as fast as a Locomotive or something.
I want to point this out first. The beast has to have some mass and weight to it because of its strength.
So hopefully it will not be able to jump aggressively because of its weight.
A helicopter is going to fly in over it with a noose type of cable. Kind of like roping cattle or something. The cable will be just long enough and anchored to the ground in some way. But there will have to be a distraction that happens at the split second the helicopter drops the noose over the creatures head.
If the helicopter drops the noose successfully and the distraction works out. Hopefully the animal instinct will kick in and make it chase that distraction. And even if its human instincts kick in. And hopefully the length of the cable was the right length for the animal to reach maximum speed and then all of a sudden it abruptly stops when the cable runs out.
Close lined broken neck creature lying on the ground hopefully will be the ending to that story.
Edith. Any sign of the comment that I just posted?
Matt61
Is there some new restriction on length?
Matt61
Yay, there it is. 🙂
Matt61
This is all about a book your writing? That sounds cool, a bit duke nukem fun. You should write for movies, they would love stuff like this, make a good flick.
buldawg
I will have to check out the break barrel some more.
And try this with the Hawke scope the next time your out. Focus the scope at 10 power and then turn down to 6 power and shoot. Try doing that procedure at different distances. You will find that you will not have to worry about hold over or under if you keep your distances reasonable. Even out to 70 yards you will find you may only need a little ovef a half mil dot hold over. Make sure you get a good flat shooting pellet if you can. I think you will be surprised when you try it. It helps so you dont have to take and write down all of your hold over or unders down. Just aim and shoot. Thats the way I do it and you will find the 6 power stays in focus at closer distances if you leave it focused for 50 yards where your zeroed at. Makes things much simpler.
And I use the small Bengamin carbon fiber tank. I thinkits 90 cubiic inches. Not 90 cu. feet. Its got the micro hose with the femsle Foster quick disconnect. No regulater because I fill some of my guns above 3000 psi. And its a 4500psi tank. Oh and I fill by the gage on the tank. The gage on the gun I use just for refrence.
And I hope this goes through this time.
Gunfun
Got your response and I will try the 6x power trick.
I still have a question on how you hook your fill hose to your 90 CI tank to fill your guns with. I realize to use the gauge on tank because the gauge on gun it just a reference, but I don’t understand what fitting you use to connect your fill line it tank with a gauge on it. you got a pic you can send me or a link to something at PA that you use.
Going to try and make the North Carolina air gun show in October 17 & 18 in Conover NC.
BB and Edith are you going to be at the NC air gun show I would love to talk to you in person.
Buldawg
Gunfun
Did some more research on the Firepower break barrel I bought and it is also the same as a crosman Phantom, Optimus , Sierra and several other Crosman break barrels. Those mentioned all share the same trigger assy. Here is a link to an excellent website for air gun schematics and by comparing the schematics there to my gun I found it to be a Crosman rebrand sold under the Firepower name.
http://airenlaces.blogspot.com/p/enlaces-paginas-de-armas-de-aire.html
When you open the site you will have to go to the upper left on the page and select the language tab for English, then locate the brand gun you want to look at and select either group 1, 2 ,3 and then the blue highlighted links are schematics of gun that are available. Happy reading
Buldawg
buldawg thanks for the link to the diagrams.
And getting your gun at 40 bucks sounds like it was a good deal to me.
buldawg
This is what I have.
/product/benjamin-carbon-fiber-tank-90-cu-in-gauge-hose-w-female-quick?a=4203
The ShoeBox compressor that I have comes with a male Foster fitting. That’s were you hook the bottle up to be filled by the ShoeBox compressor. Here is a link to the compressor. I have the base model that is around 600 or so dollars. Same compressor but its like the Chevy and the one that PA sells is like the Cadillac brand. It has more bells and whistles and costs more.
/product/freedom-f10-shoebox-electric-air-compressor-max-4500-psi?a=4899
I also have this micro line so I can hook my guns directly to the ShoeBox.
/product/air-venturi-foster-quick-detach-hose-assembly?a=4955
Gunfun
Ok now I see what you are using, my SCBA tanks have a gauge built in to the valve on the tanks but they only have 2500 psi in them and they are for filling the 60C originally. My scuba tank only has the K valve on it with no gauge and I have the fill adapter to fit the k valve with quick connect and a fill line with the correct foster fittings. This is my adapter for scuba tank that has 3500 psi in it
/product/air-venturi-scuba-tank-yoke-k-valve-adapter-hose-assembly-1-8-bspp?a=534
This is the style regulator on my 68 CI carbon tank only the reg is a Ninja reg not air venture.
/product/air-venturi-airgun-regulator-fits-90-cu-in-carbon-fiber-tank?a=5019
I have the valve in the reg set with spacer to keep it from regulating output pressure and make it fixed at tank pressure which I have been trying to fill to 4500 psi, but the disc keeps blowing at 42 to 4300 psi by the gauge on my hand pump on the pump that came with my 60c. Do you think I should go back to the spring and spacers to get output pressure to be at around 29 to 3000 psi instead of having it spaced to not be able to move the valve at all.
Buldawg
buldawg
I do want to ask what disc keeps blowing? The one on your scuba tank? If its that one that is rated and at 3500 psi I believe it will have a 3500 psi disc because that tank is rated at 3500 psi. You should not fill that tank above what they rate it at.
The bottles on the nitrous that I used for the cars was rated at I think 900 psi if I remember right. They made bottle warmers that would heat the bottle up to that psi or a little above before the car makes the run so they could keep the fuel and nitrous mixture consistent. That’s why you see them purging the nitrous before the run with the white cloud of smoke by the windshield or something. They ain’t doing that for show. They do it to get the pressure back down in the bottle to the exact same psi before the run. And I have seen the burst disc blow on them. I had a new 97 Z28 and the car was out in the sun at the drag strip all day and the bottle was in the back hatch back compartment. Well it got to hot and heated the bottle up and it blew.
So those burst discs are very important to be correct to the rating on the bottle. Notice my bottle is rated at 4500 psi. And what I could do is but a 3000 psi regulator on the bottle and then I could just hook up to the gun open the valve slowly and when it reached 3000 psi it would not fill any farther. then you just shut the valve, bleed off and unhook. So that is a much safer way for your gun to be filled if it was done that way. But the problem with me is all my guns like different fill levels so its easier for me to control the fill psi then use a regulator. And some of my guns I fill above 3000 psi.
Gunfun
I have a 68CI carbon fiber paint ball tank that is rated for 4500 psi and the regulator on the bottle had a 1.8k burst disc on the output side and a 7.5K burst disc on the bottle side and its output pressure was 850 psi. I have tried to play with the regulator spring tension by adding Belle ville washers and shims to get a output around 2900 to 3000 psi after I replaced the 1,8K disc with a 5K disc. I could not get the reg to output in the range of 29 to 3K psi so I placed a spacer in the reg to make the valve stationary and was just going to fill like you do to the 2900 psi that the Hatsan runs on but when I get to 42 to 4300 psi or just under 300 bar on my gauge on the hand pump that came with my 60C the 5K burst disc blows. both the gauge on the 68CI bottle and on the pump are showing about 42 to 4300 Psi or just under 300 bar. So my question is should the 5K burst disc blow that far below its rating or are both the gauges that far off that I am actually filling to 5K or over.
My scuba tank does have a 5K burst disc in it and my fire extinguisher buddy said it would be safe to 3500 psi because he just got done doing a Visual eddy test, Hydro test and VIP test of the scuba tank and it is good till July 2019.
I know how important the burst disc is for safety, but I just don’t believe I am over filling the bottle to above 5000 psi and I think the burst disc should not blow at 4500 psi or below. The only thing I can think is wrong is that I bought the disc’s off ebay and they may not be of a high enough quality to hold at that close to there rating.
Do you think I should put the spring back in and play with washers and shims to get my desired 2900 fill pressure setting or leave the solid spacer in it and try a better quality burst disc.
I just hate to waste the time and air trying to get the reg adjusted to 2900 psi instead of just filling slow like you do till I reach the pressure I want. I have gone and got some .005″ brass shim stock and made my own disc that is the same thickness as the brass that came out of the blown disc and replaced the blown disc but I have also ordered more off ebay, but I now question if the ones from ebay are actually good to their stated rating.
Give me your thoughts.
Buldawg
buldawg
I don’t know enough about that to give you a safe answer about the shims or springs or spacers. All I know is 4500 psi tank. 4500 psi burst disc and a regulate that is rated to 4500psi with a 4500 burst disc I would think. Then there should be some way to adjust the out put pressure to your gun. Then there should be a equivalent burst disc there for what the regulator is set for to fill that gun.
And something just came to mind when I said that. You said you are using the hand pump to top the bottle off. Are you hooking up the hand pump at the connection at the same place that you hook the gun up to? If so I think that’s the problem. Your trying to put 4500 psi through the regulator that your trying to control at 3000 psi. that you would normally fill your gun with. I’m not sure how that regulator works but maybe you are not supposed to go through the regulator when you fill the bottle. Maybe the regulator shouldn’t be in place when you fill the bottle.
But can you use your carbon fiber tank without the regulator like I do on my setup. And you control the fill rate and how much psi manually by hand with the flow knob? That’s what I would like to know. Or do you need a different adapter on the bottle when you fill it? Now you got me wondering more about how that regulator is flowing. I don’t think I have any ideas. Did you try to talk to any of the techs at PA? They might have the answer. Let me know what you think or find out.
Buldawg,
Nobody — and I mean nobody — other than one or two big bore airguns, can run a PCP_ at 2900 psi! The Hatsan is FILLED to 2900 psi, but it doesn’t operate at such a high pressure! The valve outputs something around 2000 to 2100 psi at the most.
You need to throttle back that output pressure to around 2,200 psi.
Even Walther, whose target rifles get filler to 4350 psi, still only run the valves at around 2,200 psi. And the AirForce rifles only run at around 2,200 psi or less. I haven’t heard of an airgun valve that will output 2,900 psi pressure
B.B.
BB your talking about the valve in the gun that transfers the air to the barrel when the striker knocks it right?
GF1,
Yes, I am. Isn’t that what he is feeding?
B.B.
BB
I think the problem he is having is he is topping off his carbon fiber bottle through the regulater and its popping the regulator disc at 4200 psi.
He cant get his buddy bottle topped off.
Gunfun
See my reply to BB below your last post. I am filling the bottle thru the foster fitting on the tank side and it is blowing the 5k disc on the output side.
Buldawg
BB
I was not meaning that my gun shoots pellets at 2900 psi. I meant that that is the fill pressure is use’s to shoot with. I have not altered my gun in any way and it is still factory stock.
What I am trying to figure out and get accomplished is to be able to fill my 68 ci carbon fiber paintball tank that is rated for 4500 psi with 4500 psi of air and use it to fill my gun to 2900 psi in the field rather than lug my scuba tank with me. The tank came with a regulator on it that has a 7.5K burst disc on the tank side and a 1.8k disc on the output side and I am trying to get it to output 2900 to 3000 psi to the gun so I can fill it in the field. I have changed the 1.8K disc to a 5K disc and played with the spring inside the regulator by adding Bellville washers and shims to get the output to 29 to 3000 psi but cannot get the pressure over 2400 psi and still be able to screw the bonnet all the way back down on the body. So I put a spacer in the regulator that is the same length as the spool valve so that it cannot move to regulate the output pressure and I have a paintball tether adapter that screws on the output side of the regulator and hooks up to the gun with a foster fitting. I have not been able to get 4500 psi in the tank without the 5K disc on the output side blowing. I am filling the tank thru the foster fitting on the tank side of the regulator starting with my SCBA tank to 2500 psi, then my scuba tank to 3500 psi and then using my hand pump that came with my Xisico 60C gun to top it up to 4500 psi, but the 5k burst disc keeps blowing at around 42 to 4300 psi or just under 300 BAR. it has done that twice, so is it a bad idea to have the regulator spool locked so it cannot move to regulate the output pressure and allow me to turn knob on tether to fill to 2900 psi and stop the fill my self or should I try to get the regulator set at 2900 to 3000 psi.
Any and all comments or info will be appreciated.
Buldawg
Buldawg,
I suppose you’ve considered removing the reg and working straight from the tank? I have to reconfigure my tank for each new fill situation when I test different airguns. That’s why I like Foster fittings so much.
B.B.
BB
Yes I have thought about doing away with the regulator, but do not know what to put in its place. Does the valve like Gunfun has that comes on the 90CI carbon tank that PA sells for 399 fit any paintball tank or are the threads different between tanks. I would like to stay with the regulator so I don’t have to spend more money on a valve and that is why I was trying to make my regulator into a fixed output setup to work basically like the valve on the 399 tank PA sells and just control the fill pressure myself. But as I said I cannot get it to take a full 4500 psi fill without blowing the output side 5k disc.
If you think having the regulator spool valve lock in a fixed position is causing the disc to blow I can try putting the spring back in with washer and shims to get it to 2900 psi output. The reason I gave up and locked the spool valves was I did not have my scuba tank back from it being tested to be sure it was still safe to fill because it was made in 1976 and the last test on it was in 94. now that I have it back I can fill the bottle without having to pump it by hand to adjust regulator, I just hate to waste the air if I can just leave it locked and use it just like the valve on the 90 CI tank from PA.
Do you think the disc is blowing due to the valve being locked. I fill the tank thru the foster on the tank side so it is no different than if it had a 1.8k disc or 5k disc, the tank should hold 4500 psi without the disc blowing regardless of what the regulator spool valve is doing. Do you think that one the tech at PA could give me more help and if so is their a particular person I need to ask for.
Thanks for your help and I do want to be safe when filling my guns.
Buldawg
BB
This is the type of regulator I am using on my 68 CI tank, it is not an air venture but is the same type of regulator as this one if that helps clarify what I am trying to do and I see that this one is set for 2900 psi output I just don’t want to spend 100,00 bucks if I can get my regulator to work like this one
/product/air-venturi-airgun-regulator-fits-90-cu-in-carbon-fiber-tank?a=5019
Buldawg
buldawg
Talk to this guy. I spent a hour on the phone with when I was getting myself set up for the pcp gun filling. He supplies the tanks to Crosman if I remember right when I talked to him.
I know BB and Edith don’t want links posted of competitors. But here is his phone number and the name of his business. And like I said he’s smart about all this pressure stuff.
AirTanksForSALE
714-907-0067
Joe Bracato
Gunfun
I have heard of him and been to his site and seen the valves for sale, they are a bit pricey though. I will give him a call and see if he can help me.
Thanks for the info.
Buldawg
BB
I mentioned that already too. I think there maybe something going wrong with the regulator.
Gunfun
I have checked the PAS site and cannot find where I can buy just the valve like you use on your 90 CI tank. I don’t want to buy the tank and valve complete, just want the valve if it is cheap enough.
Buldawg
I am curious which you would recommend for backyard plinking. A Gamo P900 vs a Beeman P17 and why? Which is easier to cock? Quieter? More accurate?
JeffG,
Welcome to the blog.
I definitely recommend the P17 over the Gamo P900. It is far more accurate. The 900 is easier to cock. They are about the same noise level.
The P17 also has a much better trigger.
B.B.