The Gat’s where it’s at!: Part 2

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Gat
The Gat is a timeless classic air pistol. Shown uncocked here.

A history of airguns

Part 1

  • Hard cocking!
  • Air Arms Falcon pellets
  • RWS Hobby pellets
  • H&N Finale Match Pistol pellets
  • RWS R10 Pistol pellets
  • RWS HyperMAX pellets
  • Darts
  • Took longer to shoot
  • 2016 Texas airgun show

Today we look at the Gat’s power. I was also going to combine an accuracy test with today’s report, but I spent so much time just determining the velocity that I will only report that.

Hard cocking!

I reported in part 1 that the Gat is hard to cock. To cock the gun the barrel is pushed straight back, like a Quackenbush or a Crosman M1 Carbine. By the time I had tested 5 pellets and a series of darts, my left palm was sore!

hand
After about 31 shots, my hand was sore! I had to stop shooting.

Air Arms Falcon pellets

First up were Falcon pellets from Air Arms. These fit the breech rather loosely, though I didn’t know that until I had tried other pellets. They averaged 186 f.p.s. The spread went from a low of 165 f.p.s. to a high of 197 f.p.s. I had guessed that the Gat was a 200 f.p.s. pistol, so this was very close.

RWS Hobby pellets

Next up were RWS Hobby pellets. These fit the breech extremely tight and were what taught me that the Falcons were actually loose. In fact, they fit so tight that I didn’t fire an entire string of them. I only shot 3 of them that went 165 f.p.s., 196 f.p.s. and 179 f.p.s. With such a wide variation I have no hope for any accuracy with Hobbys.

H&N Finale Match Pistol pellets

I though that H&N Finale Match pellets might be smaller than Hobbys, so I tried them next. Not only were they not smaller, they were actually tighter in the breech than the Hobbys. I had to hammer in the loading pin to get one of them seated. So I only tried 2 pellets. They went out at 164 f.p.s. and 168 f.p.s. I gave up after that.

This test wasn’t turning out like I imagined. The velocity was where I expected it to be, but the difficulty of cocking was something I wasn’t prepared for. I can see why kids used to push the muzzle against furniture and woodwork.

RWS R10 Pistol pellets

Okay, RWS R10 Pistol pellets are light weight and (I thought) small. Turns out they were light but not that small. I only fired two pellets. They went out at 180 and 197 f.p.s. My hand was now starting to really hurt, and I wanted to test darts, as well. One more pellet to test and then I made the switch.

RWS HyperMAX pellets

I wanted to see some speed, and nothing I had tried thus far satisfied that urge. So I broke out the RWS HyperMax lead-free pellets. Weighing just 5.2 grains, these lightweights promised to speed things up. They also fit the breech very loose, which sounded good after all the problems I’d had.

HyperMAX pellets averaged 204 f.p.s. with a low of 197 and a high of 209 f.p.s. The spread of just 12 f.p.s. was the smallest of the test. I think I will have to try them in the accuracy test, too!

Darts

Next up were darts. All I have are some vintage darts of undetermined origins. Some were too large for the breech, though they are .177 darts. But I found 5 that did fit. The velocities I got were 114, 111, 117, 107 and 110 f.p.s. That is more consistent than any of the pellets. That’s probably because the darts do not have the friction that the pellets have. Will that make them more accurate? Who knows?

Took longer to shoot

I was unprepared for how long it takes to shoot a Gat. That breech pin has to be unscrewed for every shot, then the pellet pressed into the breech and the pin insrted and screwed tight again. It’s a real time-waster! Boy — did I ever learn a lot about this airgun from this abbreviated test! I will need to use a glove when I test the pistol for accuracy, and I’m not looking forward to it. That’s the end of today’s test, but I have some additional information for you.

2016 Texas airgun show

The Texas airgun show will be held on Saturday, August 27, 2016. It opens to the public at 9 a.m. and runs until 4 p.m. It will be held at the Arlington Sportsman’s Club, located in Mansfield, Texas. Eight-foot tables are $30 each (maximum of 2 per dealer) and admission is $5 for everyone over 12. The tables are limited, so if you want one get cracking now. They will all be reserved long before the show.

They will have a website up soon with show information. Look at Texas airgun show.

There will not be a big bore airgun match this year, but the club is working on a silhouette-type match called the Pyramyd Air Gunslynger where the timing is accelerated. More about this in the future. I am also working on a couple novel ideas for other airgun events.

To reserve a table call this number: 469-369-2539. Right now we are just getting started. When there is more to tell, I will tell you.

158 thoughts on “The Gat’s where it’s at!: Part 2

  1. There you go again, giving your blood for the airgun sport…

    Why not just use the leather glove on the table and press the muzzle down on it, rather than pressing the gun into your palm to cock it?

    I know, it was meant to be cocked the way you are doing it, but the designers weren’t shooting that many rounds in one sitting…



      • Take a 2×4 with you and lay it on the ground on your right side, you’ll thank me later. I’d stop cocking them by hand around 3-4 times and my hand would look like the picture you took.
        I always used the counter top to cock mine.
        Don’t forget to try muzzle loading BB’s, they bring the fun back into shooting them.


    • I was going to suggest the same thing. Leather gloves serve many purposes with shooting pistols. They keep my hand from getting chafed with the slide on the 1911 (although that isn’t really a problem). They protect me when the guns heat up from excessive shooting. And they look pretty cool.

      Matt61


  2. Thank you for your labors! That red palm maybe old age? Gat’s on one of my clubs on FB have a lot of them for sale! Thanks to your hard labors! I won’t be wasting any time or money on an even great purchase! I’ll save the money and spend at the TEXAS airgun show! Semper fi!



      • I went to my first show in 2015 and had a marvelous time. The weather really cooperated too. I went on Google Earth and noticed a lot of well pads. It appears that Mansfield is in the middle of the Barnett Shale horizontal drilling play. BTW, I am an O&G geologist and still have a consulting business, even at my advanced age. I hope to make the airgun show again this year.

        Bob



  3. BB
    Good to hear about the Texas show. And interested to hear more about the shooting events.

    Also question on the Gat. What happens when you cock it and you don’t catch the sear. Does it just spring back open. In other words there probably ain’t no bear trap or anything to hold the partial cocked gun till your ready to push more again to finalize the full cocked position.


  4. In all my years of seeing these things, this is the first time I’ve ever seen anybody even attempt pushing the barrel in by hand, you press the gun down on to a surface for goodness sakes!


  5. That’s exactly what we used to do: Press it onto a wall or something to cock it. The problem is, as a kid I’d get rasped and cut-up knuckles when the barrel-end slid across the surface whlist pressure was being applied to it.


  6. ATTENTION AIRGUNNERS!

    Another upcoming show!

    Flag City Toys That Shoot
    Findlay, Ohio
    April 9, 2016

    http://www.flagcitytoysthatshoot.com/#!

    I encourage each and every one of you to attend an event this year. Go to a show. You will be amazed at what is out there. Attend a shoot, whether it is a fun shoot or a formal match, there is to much to see and learn.




      • BB,

        It will be very difficult for me to attend this year, but you never know what might happen between now and then.

        I am planning on attending the GTA Fun Shoot and the Hickory, NC show again this year.

        Are you or maybe Pyramyd Air contemplating having a page listing upcoming airgun events? It would certainly be a nice addition to this and their site. I know they heavily advertise their sponsored events, but it would be nice if such a major player in the industry would provide a spot for us to see what upcoming events there are. Many are unaware of shows and such in their own neighborhoods.


  7. B.B.,

    I always cock my Gat “rifle” by pushing against a joist in my basement or piece of 2×4 in my backyard.

    I don’t have a Gat pistol, but from what I can tell from photos the entire propulsion mechanism on the long gun is about twice the length as on the pistol. Twice the spring length, twice the compression distance, twice the cocking distance, and so on. I’ve never chronied my Gat, but my telephone directory suggests to me that it shoots 7 grain Hobbys in the neighborhood of 270 fps.

    Michael


  8. B.B.
    You gotta stop cocking that thing on your hand, use the surface of your shooting bench and you should try muzzle loading BB’s.
    It would seem less like work and more like fun.


  9. When I had my Gat, the easiest way I found to cock it was to press the muzzle down on a carpeted floor. I usually shot it in my living room or office at work while sitting in a chair. I would just lean out over the arm of the chair and press it down with a little body weight. That way it cocks easy peasy. I you do the accuracy test in your office, that should work out for you too.



  10. Sorrry to change the subject but will a Discovery or Marauder valve fit in a Crosman 760 pump tube? I’m wondering if that mod is possible and would give you more volume for your effort per shot.

    Brent



      • Reb,

        Back to normal? All good? I hope so.

        As for the mod.,…you seem to be pretty sure. Me? No clue. I do know,…how bad do you want it fit? That can be a big factor to making the “impossible”,….”possible”.



    • Brent,

      Looking too boost that round ball in that modded multi-pump you worked over? 😉 Like the way you think.

      Did ya’ see my reply to you on my 880 arrow/dart project?


    • Brent
      You can go to the Crosman website and pull up the diagrams of the guns your looking at swapping parts on and compare.

      But it does not list dimensions. Right now I can tell you the Marauder rifle valve diameter/tube is bigger than the the others. So that’s out.

      The Discovery and Marauder pistol have the same size tube and valves will interchange.

      What you need to determine about the 760 is, does it have the same tube diameter as the Discovery or Marauder pistol. Then see if the screw locations are the same that hold the valve in the tube on each gun. Then the transfer port hole needs to be in the same location. Next is valve stem legnth. And some other things also on the compression side of the valve where the pump is at.

      Also I do believe without looking at my guns at home (at work right now) that the 1322/77 is out of the question too. It has a pretty small diameter tube and valve. Smaller than the Disco and Marauder pistol.

      The best thing to do when you want to do something like that is have the pieces in hand to compare. I once took and put a Discovery valve in one of the flying dragon hundred dollar pcp’s. And I had to modify some things. But it worked.

      What’s nice if you have some old parts guns laying around. Or know somebody with the same guns you have and they have them apart and can take pictures and email or text you the pictures.

      Other than that maybe do some internet searches to see if anybody has done it. And I will bet you might find something similar that would work but will need modified. I’m a machinist so it’s pretty easy for me to make a mor modify parts. So that’s something else to keep in mind.



        • GF1,

          Shroud on 880 off. Took about 1/2 hr. to carefully cut it 1/2″ in front of forearm. It was .076″ thick wall and was impressed, as I did not figure it was that thick. The barrel must “nest” in the plastic front sight insert, as there was no attachment there,….it slipped right off. The barrel is .302″ OD and the arrow ID is .309″. To slip one over the other, the fit seems almost perfect. 1 wrap of some Scotch tape at muzzle might be perfect. Barrel was tight, but had movement/motion. O-Ring to the fix, perfect, recessed a bit and liquid steel to reset center in what is left of shroud.

          I did it. Arrow tech. 101 next. Well, darts too,…ain’t done with them yet either.

          Fun, fun is all I can say. 😉



            • GF1,

              Crown was not touched in any way, at all. As I said, the barrel was “nested” in the end of the shroud/sight/whatever. Stock, the barrel sat about 3/4″ back from end of faux muzzle. Faux=fake.



                • GF1,

                  Yup,…..arrow over barrel as the Pioneer does. 8 7/8″ exposed barrel and I will try to go with that for an overall length,…at least to back of tip anyway. That way the blast will hit the head straight away. Since I got a nice solid head, I can grind down to balance front. The rear might be a bit trickier. A guy at work said measure arrow. Find center. Balance arrow. Balance should point should be about 15% (of length) in (front) of measured center.

                  Will try,…as a start.


                  • Chris USA
                    Sounds like when I balance the CG on my RC airplanes.

                    Looking at the side of the plane the most stable balance point is if you place your finger under each wing. The plane should balance nose down just a bit with your fingers about a third of the way back from the leading edge of the wing.

                    So less stable you would make the plane more tail heavy which would be moving the CG farther back on the wing towards the half way mark. That would make the plane hard to control.

                    If you move the CG forward towards the leading edge of the wing the plane would be more nose heavy. To much that way and the plane was sluggish to respond.

                    So the just right balance point of the plane had to be experimented with when you flew to get a smooth stable flying plane. But also respond well if needed.

                    I think your arrow will be that way to achieve the best acurracy. Same with your darts.


                    • GF1,

                      Did about 2 pages of calculations this AM figuring out just what I have, with the parts I have to play with, currently. I could go into a bunch of math, but I won’t.

                      What was interesting was the 29 1/8″ arrow, incl. tip and fins,…balanced out at 9.8% forward of overall length center,…which is within the 15% mentioned above.

                      As for parts, alum. shaft with front insert, no nock, hollow = 366.6 gr. Tip = 125.4 gr. Fins = 41.3 gr.

                      With some more math, ratios, %’s, I should be able to come up with design requirements (on paper) to achieve a do-able arrow that is only 8 7/8″ to back of head. At least get it close anyways.

                      Fun, fun,….full day,…back later in PM,….Chris



          • Congratulations!
            Do you have a dot sight you can try on it?
            You’re gonna want something with a much broader field of view than that little 20mm scope.
            Awaiting some accuracy testing.
            Good job!


            • Reb,

              Thanks,….but don’t let the horses out of the barn just yet. Lot’s of testing to do. The cheap scope it came with will do for now. I will get it balanced as best I can and try it at 10 pumps. It may drop like a rock and then it may not. The 30-35 gr. darts did penetrate a 3/4″ pine board with tip through at 24′ with only 3 pumps,….so there is some power there than can be harnessed. I will give weight, chrony, accuracy, and hold over if I get anything going. At first, I will just see how far it will shoot, before it plants itself in the dirt.

              I figure the finished arrow might come in at around 150-200 gr.. Not bad for something that shoots 10 gr. pellets. We’ll see. I think odd’s are not in my favor.


              • That thing may surprise you with it’s power and range, as I said anything over 5 pumps with my 760 was too much but your rig is a lot different than mine was so I’m interested in keeping up with it so long as you’re willing to conduct the testing.
                🙂



                • Reb,

                  I will not even try it at 24′. Outside and open air with 50 yds. minimum. I will see how far it goes before planting itself in the dirt. Then play with barrel angle, or should I say,…at least measure the incline VS range.


                  • Chris USA
                    Don’t be surprised if it glances off the ground or buries itself under the grass.

                    My daughters have shot compound bow and arrow for about 5 years now. You will loose arrows.

                    And as I say, most important last so you will remember. Make sure you know your area behind where you think the arrow might stop. Trust me you don’t know where that arrow can end up.


                    • GF1,

                      Yup,…can’t be too carefull. That is why I told Reb it will outdoors only. I have seen what a 30-35 gr. homemade dart can do, let alone a 150-200 gr. arrow/bolt.



          • You are correct about the front sight/bushing just being a barrel locater.
            I just had Daisy fax me a schematic of the metal receiver 880 and a list of aftermarket suppliers today.
            I’ll probably be placing an order through them and Crosman early next week.



    • Brent
      The answer to your question of a Disco/Prod valve fitting in a 760 Tube is a definite NO as is a Mrod valve since the Mrod is way to big in OD and the Disco/Prod valve is .735″ OD and the 760/22xx/13xx valve is .614″ OD so no way you will fit the disco/Prod valve in the 760 Tube plus even if it would fit you still have to address the fill check valve in the 760 valve since the Disco/Prods have no fill check valve at all.

      Your best route to more volume in the valve for each shot is to cut 3 threads off the nose of the stock valve and open the internal ID of the rear portion of the valve up by about .040″ for a total increase of .080″ more ID and go as close to the poppet seat as possible with out touching it. then open the transfer port to 75% of the barrels bore depending on if it is a 177 or 22 in both the valve transfer port and barrel transfer bushing and barrel port. 177 port ID should be max of .140″ and 22 should be max of .176″. Then change out the valve spring to a lighter one and a stronger hammer spring so that the gun has to be cocked to allow the valve to be charged when pumping and you will have a full dump valve setup that will give max power per number of pumps and allow for pumping to 20 to 25 pumps for greatly increased velocities.

      BD


      • BD76,

        Depending on what the arrow does, (or does not do),….I may hit you up on some 880 valve mods. Not yet though. Let’s see what it will do first. What you told Brent, was all “Greek” to me. I got a funny feeling I will be finding out though,……. 😉 Chris


        • Chris,USA
          I am not that familiar with a 880 in that is it a multi pumper or a single stroke pumper.

          If it is a single stroke pump gun then everything I said to Brent does not really apply to the 880 since to increase power in it you need to do just the opposite and reduce the valves volume to increase its pressure in the valve with the single stroke, but if it is a multi pumper then yes to some extent what I told him is the same it just depends on the design of the valve and pump piston assy as to what’s the best way to increase air volume as well as pressure.

          I have not really dabbled in hopping up Daisy’s at all other than my Avanti 853 but its a single stroke gun so its a whole different approach for it.

          I will try to look into the 880s schematic and see what I think would be the best approach for it.

          BD


    • Brent
      One thing I forgot to state in hopping up the 760s valve and piston setup is making the valves cone shaped nose into a flat top and getting a corresponding flat topped piston to put on the pump linkage is a must to get the biggest gains possible from the gun.

      Similar to this although this is for a 22xx/13xx gun its the same design but needs to be for a 760.

      http://www.ebay.com/itm/HIGH-PERFORMANCE-FLAT-TOP-HP-VALVE-ADJ-PISTON-POWER-COMBO-for-Crosman-1322-etc/291676997831?_trksid=p2047675.c100040.m2060&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140107095009%26meid%3D4f4f06e0e59243b1b1889fc48e95ed9a%26pid%3D100040%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D291676997831

      BD


  11. Yesterday it was a $1700 Morini and today the Gat. What in the world will read about Monday ?
    Thank you for very entertaining and informative posts.
    Best wishes
    Harvey


  12. About gun shows. Does anyone know if there are very many airguns displayed (sold) at typical firearm gun shows? That’s all we have around here. Thought I might attend one or two if that is the case.

    Match Day. Will be off to the range in about two hours. I plan to shoot two rifles I haven’t used in a match yet. My FX Royale and R.A.W. BM500.

    G&G


  13. G & G, I use to go to all types of gun shows and related sports shows etc. till I hit 70 years old! I average three plus shows a month and was a vender also! What I found out at gun (not airgun shows) shows is that venders find out soon who is into airguns! Most don’t know much about them? But! They are learning! They usually just want to get rid of the airguns and don’t have knowledge of airguns! Not a bad way to find the crown jewels? Like FWBs etc.? I have found airguns at almost every show? Or related airguns items, accessories like pellets etc. If you walk and talk the product or air guns, guns etc. that you are interested in? Some one will find you or tell you to come back the next day of the show or the next show they are showing and they wil bring what they have in airguns! Sometimes you hit and sometimes you don”t! And most of the time you don’t find what you’re looking for! Now some of my best trades or purchases have come from show goers or people that bring their goods to trade to peddle at a gunshow! Now you have some of the story! Now it’s up to you to find and seek! Semper fi!



      • Reb,

        You can’t figure anything at guns shows. Some dealers are glad to get rid of the airguns that they probably picked up when buying collections, but others see an all-brass Benjamin 130 and put $250 on a $30 gun because it must be rare. They have never seen one!

        They also see target guns like FWB 300s and price them at $1,100, because they figure they have to be worth that. But if you try to sell them one they won’t give over $300, which tells you they really do know what they are worth.

        Gun shows can be exciting places to buy airguns, but they can also be quite frustrating.

        B.B.


    • J.Lee
      Haven’t really been to a air gun show. Have been to some firearm shows. And alot of muscle car parts swap meets.

      The firearm shows that I been to had no airguns and the people just seemed to want to sale. And they wanted a arm and a leg for everything. I was better off spending a few more dollars and getting a new gun.

      But the muscle car parts swap meets I went to in my area were pretty much like how you explained the gun shows your talking about. Actually pretty exciting to attend. Unlike the gun shows in my area. They were pretty boring.

      So I really never felt like attending any gun shows because of the boring shows I use to go too.

      Now if there was a annual air gun show in my area I would be all over that. I know there is a gun range about 4 miles away that has a indoor and out door range. They do shoot airgun matches on the indoor range. But just target practice on the out door ranges with air guns. I guess I could find out if they thought about having a gun and air gun show. I did try to get them to do a feild target match. But there not very energetic people and they seem to not want to change their ball game if you know what I mean. So no telling what would go about with a gun show. I guess it don’t hurt to try and see what could happen though.


      • GF1,

        Got some 75 gr. tips. Pretty much just a cone. Also got an angle finder, inclinometer, 10$ dial type, to see what kind of upward angle I need to get what range. I am sure there is some calculation that figures that in, but I just wanted to see what it was for reference. Airguns too for that matter.

        The guys at the gun shop were helpful on getting me educated on arrows a bit. I got some weird looks though. No one seemed to have a clue on the current airgun world. PCP?,………HUH? 😉 You chopped what? The arrow is going where? The Pioneer is stronger than a cross-bow? That was a good one.

        And yes,….shooting will tell.


        • Chris USA
          Your going to very surprised that alot of firearm people won’t know what a pcp air gun is.

          At least you got the knowledge to teach them now. And just remember. We was all grasshoppers at one time. So be easy on them and teach them well.
          😉


          • GF1,

            Ahhhh,….the fabled “Grass Hopper”……this one is getting a little dryer behind the ears, day by day. 😉

            I might approach them in the future. If I get the 880 doing anything impressive at all, that would be an “introduction” that they could relate to. The 92FS would be impressive from the weight and quality standpoint. It non-blow back though. The firearm crowd can be a tuff sell, as I have found out at work. When I pick out 50 yds. at work and say that you can hit a 12 oz. can over and over with a pellet gun, that starts to get their attention.


            • Chris,

              I am doing my bit in education the local firearm users to the range and accuracy of PCPs.

              I go the sand pits the week before deer hunting season to pick up brass for my friend who reloads and bring along an airgun or two. I set up shotgun shells at 50 yards as targets – which usually results in some of the guys questioning my sanity. Wagers follow and I can usually make 100-150$ before I run out of air 

              This year a guy offered me 20$ to shoot the my HW100 – I just let him have a go. By the time he finished the magazine he was totally impressed and his first question was “where can I get one of these”. I explained about costs and the support equipment and he said that he would be ordering one with his Christmas bonus. Pretty sure that we have another shooter claimed by the dark side!

              Hank


              • Hank,

                Well,….aren’t you clever. I had not thought about the wager end of it. I am always up for one especially if I have the odds in my favor. Soooo,……thats the trick to getting the nice stuff.

                😉 , Chris


          • GF1,

            Never thought of it, but I’d bet that just dropping off an extra catalog would get them started looking. For the price of firearms being relatively low in comparison to some airguns, I am not sure what they would think. Perhaps a business opportunity or perhaps firearm proficiency? They only have an indoor archery range, not a firearms range, but they do sell long arms as well as handguns..


            • Chris USA
              Yep the catalogs is a good idea.

              I got a bunch of extra PA catalogs from all the ordering I do. I usually keep some in the car. I give them to people at work that do firearms as well as the truck driver when they drop off and make pick-ups. They are always excited to hear about the air guns and never really knew about the types of air guns that are available now days.

              Yep I bet there would be a lot more airgunners out there if they were able to give some a try.


  14. Our state law on Concealed carry is evolving to open carry.
    Time to start saving for that sidearm! My problem with the concealed carry wasthat no-one could be able to see it or you were in violation.
    There was a Christmas or New Year’s eve party where participants were line dancing and the woman behind a Man somehow loosened his gun, when he tried replacing it there was an accidental discharge into her femoral artery and she was DOA by the way time the ambulance arrived.


    • Reb
      We have both open carry and CCP carry in Alabama and are fixing to have open carry in vehicles as well. You can carry in a vehicle concealed if you have a CCP permit but they are changing it to no permit needed since your vehicle is seen as an extension of your home. Its up to the county sheriff as to how much and if a background check is performed or not, My county is 20 bucks and a 24 hour background check, the county next to me is 10 bucks and you are asked one question ” Do you own a handgun ” if the answer is no then you get no permit since you have no need for one, but if answered yes then you give them 10 bucks and walk out with a CCP permit. That is freedom at its finest.

      There will always be accidents with guns since I agree some people just should not have guns but there are no laws that have been or ever will be passed that will keep guns out of bad peoples hands PEROID since those people don’t care what the law says.

      In my opinion an armed society is a polite society and if criminals new that most people were armed there would be far less crimes committed with guns.

      The second amendment is not actually about our right to own guns as much as it is about the right to defend our third amendment right of preventing the takeover and confiscation of our homes and property by foreign or domestic forces like what the British did in the fight for our freedom from Britain.
      It is to allow the common citizen the ability to defend his homestead from any and all attackers regardless of there alliances to what ever country it may be.

      I will give up all my guns when they pry my cold dead fingers from around them.

      BD


  15. Hi B.B.,

    None of my biz but why the change in venue for the show? I really enjoyed the last two at the other place. Will we be able the airguns on their range?

    Thanks,
    Mark N




    • GF1

      No outside time yet . Had snow, wind, cold .
      Did a quick chrono on JSB RS and heavies . Just 3 shots each to see how they looked .
      Found a diagram, and the gun does have a regulator .
      Tomorrow would look promising for some outdoor time, but the 20-30 with gust to 40 wind forcast just won’t make it .

      twotalon


      • TT
        Did the JSB’s seem ok?

        And yep we had 5″ of snow and 35 degrees Wednesday and crazy wind. Blew my BBQ grill out in the yard and it was up against the house where no wind gets to it. Also snapped one of the tallest trees out in the feild in half. It was a live tree and about 3′ in diameter.

        But made it to 66 today and calm and suppose to be warmer but with some wind tomorrow. 30 degrees warmer 2 days later. Good old Midwest weather.

        And I figured the gun had to be regulated for the shot count and velocity spread you were getting.


        • GF1
          Hard to tell about the pellets . Wanted to see a general difference in velocity in different weights. Will probably end up shooting anything but the light ones .
          Don’t know yet about how the different pellet weights will affect velocity spreads . Not used to regulators . May be more consistent with certain weights . Need to do accuracy tests .
          So far not much velocity difference between weights . Wind drift factor will push me toward heavies if they do well .

          twotalon





                • GF1,

                  Last weekend I was out, I had wind to contend with. About a 10+ steady from the right. I put out a target at 50 yds. as well a can on a pole and also a can on a pole at 70 yds. First time for the 70 and really first time that I shot in steady wind. It was interesting to say the least and got a good feel for either hold off or waiting the shot. The trees amplify the wind sound, but I looked for visual clues as well as to the brush moving or small tree limbs moving. As you know, my 50 is 60′ into the woods, but with the woods bare, the wind had a definite presence.

                  It gave a new appreciation what FT shooters go through when they show up for an event on a windy day. I wonder if they cancel events for wind? Sure, everyone’s scores would be lower, but I bet the better shooters, such as yourself, would prevail with the highest score, if for nothing else,… they (do) practice in the wind.


                  • Chris USA
                    Shooting in the wind is fun. It definitely helps you learn more about your gun and pellets and scope.

                    The left or right hold along with hold over or under is called Kentucky windage. If I have to hold only left or right hold and no hold over or under I call that just windage hold. Like I might put in a half mildot of right windage hold depending on the distance I’m shooting at and how much wind is blowing.

                    Matter of fact it looks like it’s going to be one of those windage hold days even in at the closer 50 yard shots.


                    • Chris,USA
                      Yea some of the local matches where I shoot have been on a rainy day and although it did not shoot those days ( I will not get my guns out in the rain to get wet just as I will not leave the house on my bikes if its raining ) the die hard old timers /champs did shoot in the rain.

                      I have to much time and money in my guns/bikes to shoot/ride in rain when I don’t have to, if it get caught out shooting or riding in the rain them that’s different but if I have a choice on whether to do either in the rain it will be no every time guaranteed.

                      BD


                  • Chris,USA
                    FT matches are not cancelled due to weather especially wind alone or even rain for that matter, but only when there is dangerous weather such as lightning or tornados in the area.

                    this year national match shot in Ennice NC was rainy and cold the first day and had to be delayed a cou0ple hours in the middle of the match due to thunderstorms but once they passed it was shooting as usual. the second day was a bit better but still cool and damp. So to answer your question no they do not cancel matches due to wind other than hurricane or tornado force wind.

                    BD


                • GF1
                  Judging by the forecast , if I set the target holder up in the direction of Sandusky, and point the gun in the direction of Cleveland, I may hit the paper a few times .

                  twotalon


                  • Twotalon,

                    Sounds like wind at your back. That should not be too bad. Certainly better than a cross-wind. Darn all those logistics anyways! Good luck. It is a bummer though since you are testing out a new rifle. Good weather is on the way,….thats what I keep telling myself anyways.


                    • Chris

                      My first good bug hunting day will probably be spent testing pellets and maybe getting a good zero .
                      I do need a better scope if this thing shoots as good as I hope it does.
                      I have to watch the raised mounting rail . the bell on the scope is pretty close with the scope I have on it. Maybe I can switch the mount backwards and mount it behind the breech instead of in front of it .

                      twotalon


                    • Chris USA
                      Yep just left a response to TT about my wind shooting results tiday. They were definitely wrong about the wind today. Alot higher than they said it was suppose to be.


                  • TT
                    At least you know how much hold to put in.
                    😉

                    But seriously you should take some shots. My .22 Talon SS and and the .25 Marauder do real well in the wind. The Tx is a little more tricky to shoot in the wind but is still good with the JSB 10.34’s.

                    And I’m talking about a 10 mph wind. If I have a 8 mph wind or less those guns do real well.

                    Today it’s already 65 out so it’s going to be warmer then they forcasted. But the winds at 10 mph and gusting to 18 mph. But I will still be shooting my air guns today no doubt in my mind.



                    • TT/GF1,

                      Me too. Not bad, 50 and 70 with some 15.89’s and 18.13’s. LGU. Don’t ask for group size,….. I will say however,…..it was not bad,…(for ME). 😉 The 50 and 70 cans got some more holes in ’em as well.

                      Yup, wind way up now.


                  • TT
                    Bummer.

                    And the weather man was way wrong on their wind prediction here. It just blew half the pool cover off. Had to put it back on and anchor it again. More like 15 mph winds with gusts to 35.

                    But just shot the Tx with JSB 10.34’s, Talon SS with JSB 15.89’s and the .25 Mrod with the JSB 33.95’s. It’s a direct cross wind from right to left. The Talon SS at 50 yards was getting blown to the left about a inch. The Tx was about 1-1/2″ at 50 yards. But the Talon SS did put them dead on at 25 yards. And the Tx was about 3/4″ to the left at 25 yards.

                    Now old faithful that being my .25 Marauder was dead on at 50 yards and in. About 65 yards is where I had to start putting about a 1/2 mildot hold in to the right. And of course more right hold the farther out I got.

                    But yep it’s nice to have one air gun that will shoot nice in the wind.

                    Yes I’m still shooting. Yes it’s still crazy windy. And I’m luv’n it. 🙂



    • Kevin
      Its not even a working gun, they say parts to fix it are included but someone has more money than brains in my opinion at least. It sold for under 300 brand new and I found one with both a standard stock and deluxe stock for less than half that price in working mint condition.

      BD


      • BD,

        It’s a rare FWB 124 because of the stock. Nothing more. Certainly not the condition. The collector market, for all things, often pays top dollar for rare items that we mere users, not collectors, can’t wrap our heads around let alone justify. It’s crazy and interesting to me at the same time.

        kevin


        • Kevin
          I see it does have a very nice grained stock on it but I guess you hit the nail on the head in that we are users not collectors but even still it is just a fancier grained stock. Now if it was a Tyrolean stock or one with an adjustable comb I could see the extra cash it brought but to me anyway the stock alone does not warrant 950 bucks worth.

          Then I am more about function than looks as well so that explains my view point anyway. it is a good looking gun for sure.

          BD


          • BD,

            It’s crazier than you realize. It sold for $950 BUT then there was a 21% buyers premium for the auction house PLUS shipping. That FWB 124 cost the buyer $1,200.00 ++

            kevin


            • Kevin
              I saw the 21% premium but just did not bother to add it and shipping up to get the final cost so yea that is indeed crazy and hope it is in repairable condition inside since it is not working who knows if the action chamber is in smooth undamaged condition.

              It would be a shame to get and find that the gun is damaged so it cannot even be made to shoot and truly is only a wall piece for conversation.

              BD



            • BB
              I understand your sentiment about that gun but for me regardless of the tune or pedigree it has/had a non working gun that has no guarantee it can be made to shoot good or even at all again is not worth 1200 plus dollars in my opinion.

              If it had a money back guarantee that if it could not be made functional again I would get a full refund including commission and shipping I may consider it. Otherwise it would be a no brainer for me and would pass on it quite easily.

              But then I have a very nice one now as well and have first dibs on a 73 year model one when its for sale and know it will be far less than 1200 dollars to boot.

              BD


              • BD,

                The definition of what something is worth is when a ready, willing and able buyer meets the same in a seller while neither are under duress and a bargain is struck.

                You wouldn’t have paid $1,200.00+++ for that broken FWB 124 but it is worth $1,200 because the marketplace has spoken. Will it happen again? We will see.

                Kevin


                • Kevin
                  That’s is all very true as I have given money for items other have thought to be junk so it truly is ” Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder “. I will disagree that it is worth 1200,00 dollars because the ” Market ” has spoken since it more that the individual that paid that price has spoken as I highly doubt I could get 1200,00 dollars for my 124 or anyone else for that matter for another one on a regular basis.

                  I will say that this one was the exception to the rule because if the “market has spoken ” then my 124 is up for sale for 1200,00 right now to the first one with cash in hand.

                  This was more of a fluke than the norm in my opinion.

                  BD


                  • BD,

                    If your FWB has one of the rare “queen bee” type checkered stocks with interesting figure like the one that sold I might be a buyer of yours at $1,200.

                    Can you send me a few pictures? Thanks

                    kevin



                    • Kevin
                      I actually have the original factory beech stock as well as a walnut deluxe stock that the action is in right now although it has checkering on the pistol grip area there is none on the forearm and its not the fancy swirl grain that that one had but to me the stock alone does not command the doubling of the value of the gun especially if it does not even work

                      Send me your email in a post and I will send you pics but I can tell you right now you will not pay 1200,00 bucks for it or likely any other 124 I would wager to say. If you will then you definitely have more money to burn than I do and congratulate you for that but no amount of reasons or market influence will convince me that a non working 124 is worth 1200,00 dollars regardless of what wood it is in, but as I said beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

                      So the fact that someone did pay that much for one just raised the value of mine quite significantly at least for a short time anyway.

                      BD


                    • Kevin
                      Looking closer at the picture of the gun since I am not a member of the site that it sold on maybe you can tell me if there was more info in the description of the ad for it.

                      I notice that there is no trigger blade in the trigger guard so it appears to me that it may have more issues than just a broken cocking arm.

                      As far as honing the chamber that may be possible provided the damage is not so deep that honing cannot remove the damage to provide a smooth damage free surface for the piston seal to seal in so there are just far to many ? marks to me anyway to see that a piece of furniture increases the value of any gun by that much.

                      Then I have never been one to value looks over function so it could be in a plywood stock and shoot perfect and I would buy it before I would one that does not shoot. That’s just me though so no big deal and I just hope whoever paid that much for it actually gets a gun that can be repaired to enjoy and not just one to hang on the wall.

                      BD


                    • Kevin
                      After looking at the pictures in the link you posted and the pictures in the link that Mike in Atl posted I’m thinking that they are two different guns.

                      The main difference is the angle cut at the front of the stock verses BB’s round cut stock. Also two other things. But I guess they could be changed by somebody. That is thwood at the bottom of the area where you grip the gun with your trigger hand. And the spacer at the butt of the stock.




                • BB
                  I was talking about any 124 selling for 1200.00 dollars being exceptionally overpriced even with a fancy stock that Kevin linked to but then you stated that it was the one you used to own that was the Queen b gun made for Mrs Beeman in your statement below.

                  BD,

                  That rifle (I used to own it) also had one of the best tunes I ver saw. I guess that’s now gone.

                  B.B.

                  The gun Kevin linked to is not the same gun you used to own that you stated was the Queen B custom gun since the stocks are in no way the same at all in shape or wood grain and therefore all I was trying to point out was they are in fact two different actions and stocks. Plain and simple look at the pictures and it is very clear they are different.

                  BD



                    • BB
                      I did not think you realized that the gun Kevin posted the link to was not the same gun you had that was in fact the Queen B gun and is why I asked you to look at the pictures.

                      I understand the reference was made to a Queen B stock and you assumed it must be the one you had in the past so no harm no foul there.

                      I was only trying to point out at least for me that for any gun to command top dollar price it should at the very least be a working gun. I am basing that on my years in auto/ cycle industry where to command a top dollar price for a rare or collectible vehicle it must not only be in pristine and unmolested condition but be fully operational as well. You can get good money for an unmolested collectors vehicle if not operational but nowhere near the money you could if it was fully operational.

                      So if the air gun world is different then my mistake but for me looks are not near as important as function since appearance is far easier to fix than functionality is in my opinion, but then that is what I did for 45 years is fix mechanical and electrical things that roll down the road.

                      BD


  16. B.B.’s 11:23 am comment or reply says it all about the gun shows and not airgun shows! Airgun shows are small in comparison! But! They’re all airguns! Go to TEXAS Show or that show in Malvern, Arkansas should be closer! Both will be good shows! And the shows in the MId to Southern United States they are the bigger airgun shows! Semper fi!


  17. BB– I went to the Middletown (N.Y.) gun show today and bought a square orange and green cardboard box of 500 .177 pellets marked Made in Japan. The Japanese rifle shooting association recognized pellets. Diabolo type. Hit it right 100%. .Exceptional quality. Inside the box, the pellets are in a plastic bag. Do you have any info regarding these pellets? I was told that at one time Beeman sold them under their own silver ?? label . Ed




        • Gunfun1,

          Doesn’t really matter why that FWB 124 doesn’t shoot anymore. You can get the parts needed to get it shooting and hone the tube if necessary, etc., etc. What you can’t get is that stock that’s rare and correct for the period.

          kevin


          • Kevin
            Looks like you posted in the wrong place.

            But what gets me is somebody that got that gun let it deteriate.

            I’m just thinking why in the world would somebody do that to a gun that has something special going on.


            • GF1,

              Couldn’t reply to your relevant post. Thread ended/ran out of room.

              Tough to know for certain why the gun appears in the middle of a state of repair or upgrading. Fairly common though. They usually translate into sale bargains but not always.

              Kevin


  18. Hi Tom,

    Regarding the TX show, does the new venue not have a suitable range or is there some other reason for no LASSO big bore competition this year?

    Also, it is unfortunate it is the same weekend as the Kalamazoo show, now I have to decide which to go to.

    Tedd


  19. 880 arrow project update:

    Exciting news, for me any ways…..I took the 8 13/16″ available exposed barrel and then calculated the length of the insert that holds the tip. 9 5/8″ was the cut tube length which mean the end of the barrel is directly behind the head holding insert. I got some 75 gr. field points and have a slip on 41.3 gr. fletch.

    Here is the exciting part…..after learning the FOC ( front of center ) balance point should be 8-11% ahead of measured center for field points and 10-15% for broad heads,…drum roll please,……mine measured 9.8% which is right where it should be. 🙂 X3!!!!!

    I was lucky in that I was just mixing parts with a little bit of basic knowledge, but ended up with a 10 1/8″ bolt that weighs 258.9 gr. that also just happens to (fit within the correct parameters for proper flight).

    The slip-on type I have now are too small for the shaft. I will have to get some proper sized. While at the gun shop yesterday, I saw some shrink tube types that might be a good choice for my do at home project. It may be next weekend before I get around to that though.

    Stay tuned,….. Chris



      • Reb,

        Assuming all continues to well, I am not sure what to use as a target backer. A straw bale I suppose would work. I would hate to wipe out the fletches on the first shot. Even if I had a board to stop it on the back, the straw bale would be too thick. Stacked cardboard in front of a board would be another option. At least I could set the depth to around 6″.

        As for a sight, I think I read where a drooper mount can be used to get the muzzle up to compensate for the heavier projectile and arch in flight.


        • Chris USA
          Go to wally world and get you one of those target cubes designated for bow and arrow shooting then put a bale of straw or hay behind it.

          That’s what I have done for my daughters. And I cut the grass real low in their shooting area. That way if you get some arrows to bury theirselfs in the grass you can still see the arrow with the geas cut low to find them. And it kind of gives them a visual shooting lane. That way they stand in the same place always for every shot.



      • GF1,

        Yea, hard slip on with glue and the other type was a shrink tube that was flat, like shrink tube is. I did not give those too close a look. Wished I had,….I would have some bolt data by now. 🙁 While doing research this am, I ran across a type that you put in boiling water reduce/shrink.



          • GF1,

            Nothing was hard to slip on. It would not go on. I split it end to end. A gap of 3/16″ was left putting the fletches off of their equal spacing.

            Oh I see, the “hard” was referring to the 1 piece plastic fletch assy.. A plastic tube with plastic fins attached,…all one piece. Use glue to attach to shaft.



              • GF1,

                What!!!!!!!,…..there is mods. for the tip as well?????? Big wink,…. 😉

                4 big turkeys in the woods just walked by 15 yds. from me. 1 had a good limp. ? Not me.

                Nice day, windows open and some real hot chili on the stove since 8am. Another 4-6 hrs. ought to do it well. 4# of hand cut chuck roast in a 5qt. Dutch Oven. Meaty!



  20. B.B.,

    When shooting an arrow over a chrony, a 10 1/8″ bolt in my case, do you think there would be any errors with the slower speed (due to weight) and/or added length vs something like a pellet that is much shorter?

    Thanks, Chris


    • Chris

      Shooting chrony specs theirs to read from 30 to 7000 fps . Speed will not be a problem . Chronographs work fine with arrows . I would not try some of the broadheads because of the thin profile . Any other point should work fine .

      twotalon


      • Twotalon,

        Thank you. I look forwards to testing what the fps is and figuring out what the fpe will be. It should end up quite high. We’ll see. Got to get some fletches that will work first.

        Since the 41.3 gr. fletches balanced well, what do you think would be a good profile? Long and low, short and high, long and high? (given the short length).





  21. GF1
    I had to go to the bottom.

    My point exactly is why does it not work anymore and since all the parts were obliviously with the gun then why was it not repaired before selling unless it is unable to be repaired.

    Unfortunately I am not a member of that sales site and have no desire to be so I could not see the full description of the gun or if it stated why it was not repaired but only that the cocking lever was broken and it showed the arm and a spring and some paperwork.. Also if you look close at the picture there is no trigger blade in the trigger guard so what’s up with that as well.

    Not 1200,00 dollars in my book by no means.

    BD


    • BD
      Well you know how people are. They will spend money for the darndest things. As for me. Nope ain’t going to pay that much for something that don’t work. And as it goes. I ain’t no millionaire.


  22. BB and Kevin
    I beg to disagree with both of you in that the 124 in the live auction is not the Queen B gun that BB once owned because if you look at the picture of the gun in BBs report and the picture of the one that just sold for 1200,00 dollars the stocks are most definitely not the same at all in both shape and wood grain figuring.

    Please look very closely at the front end of the forearm on both guns as the one BB owned had a rounded end to the forearm and it also came all the way to end of the breech block of the barrel, the one that just sold has the standard rearward slant to the front of the forearm as well as it ending well short on the breech block since you see the entire breech block. The wood graining on the right side of the stocks are very distinctly different as well and also the one that just sold has a white butt pad spacer whereas the one BB owned had a black spacer.

    So while it is a nice looking stock it is in fact not the Queen B that both of you have stated it was or someone is pulling a fast one if it was advertised as the Queen B gun.

    Please compare the picture from Kevin’s post and the ones from BBs report that Mike in ATL posted as they are not the same gun at all.

    BD


  23. BB,
    This reminds me a bit of an adventure from many years ago. Having a formed a proto-security business with some truly peculiar requirements, it became apparent we needed some more “paper” to really make it work and prove we really knew what we were doing. “Paper” is slang for what is aka “State Certification,” aka “Officer survival,” aka “Try not to either hurt or be hurt by recalcitrant individuals that REALLY need to stop doing what they’re doing. At least not hurt or get hurt too much.”
    Now I’ll interrupt this tale by emphasizing, this has not a thing to do with BB himself, nor the errant behavior of anybody we know. Rather how I almost got arrested for getting beat-up by a mere slip of a faire maiden. (There’s your hint of time and place.). The real lesson is, if it really hurts to do it, there’s probably something wrong.
    As it turned out, we really did know more than the “Illustrious Instructors” and we proved it nearly instantly by pairing up with all the female students in the class.
    I mean, if one is going to tussle with with a sweaty individual, one might as well make it interesting. And the female students welcomed the opportunity to semi-freely whoomp on deserving hairy males. All in all, fair game for all concerned. Mostly we all ended up as after-class as “one or so drink buddies.”
    But there was, (as there always is,) one individual in the class that could never quite “get it.”
    One doesn’t see the, PR-24 baton in use so much anymore, nor did we use it in our business, but it was a common issue item in those “Hill Sreet Blues” days and did require State Licensing. To those unfamiliar, imagine a standard baton with a handle jutting out about 3/4 of the length. Ultimately, as it turned out, like a beginner with a light saber, they were usually more dangerous to the user than the intended.
    This fellow had read all the books and a veritable fountain of theoretical information but somehow had missed a crucial bit on technique which, upon finishing a horizontal chest level swing and not connecting with the intended target, gripping the right-angle handle firmly to halt the swing…before painfully impacting on one’s own upper arm or rib cage.
    Yup, this fellow had sped-read the instructions and managed to miss the last part about “why beating the besnockers out of yourself was not only a bad thing, but a failure of not only technique but probable product design. Not to mention good judgement.”
    After the trip to the ER for the obligatory tapeage of the cracked ribs (and well deserved congratulations on persistence from the attending Doc referring to the obvious multiple whacking damage revealed by the x-ray, the survivors retreated to a nearby bar to review the lessons learned. Our poster-boy felt much better after the third Martini but the lovely Tam had issue with me about the class and felt had I not got the headlock on her she’d have “whupped” me.
    All 110 pounds dressed in her blue-flowers-on-white of her summer dress, wanted another chance at whuppage, if not actual “thumpage.” On me.
    Using my best Jack Nicolson raising of the single eyebrow, “Unlikely, little lady,” said I, making not only the first mistake of the evening…but not the last.
    “Let us then repair to the grassy knoll in the front of this fine establishment, and I’ll demonstrate,” she said, the three Martinis talking.
    Fade to black, return a few minutes later and we’re sitting on the lawn and the local duty cop, blue and red flashing lights going, is saying “We had the call that a smallish woman was beating up on some guy. You two know anything about it?”
    “Sounds like just some good-natured fun to me, officer,” sez I.
    “Yup,”sez Tam.
    “Who won?” Sez the officer.
    In unison, Tam and I point at each other.
    “How’d you know it was us? says Tam.
    The grass-stains all over that blue&white summer dress were kind of a giveaway, ” sez the officer.
    “You know, they’re kind of hard to get out…”


Leave a Reply