Crosman 100 multi-pump pneumatic: Part 2

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Crosman 100
Crosman’s 100 is a .177 caliber variation of the more plentiful model 101.

Part 1

A history of airguns

This report covers:

  • How much was it?
  • How I know it holds
  • The tests
  • Test 1 — Crosman Premier lights
  • Test 2
  • Sig Match Ballistic Alloy pellet
  • H&N Baracuda Match
  • Trigger pull
  • Power adjustability
  • Loading is hard
  • Summary

How much was it?

Before I jump into today’s report, which is on the velocity of the Crosman 100, I want to make a comment on the price. I paid $150 for this one. It has just been refinished and the powerplant was overhauled — I think. Even if it wasn’t overhauled, it holds air for months (I’ll explain how I know that), so it’s the same thing.

Remember how rare I said these are? I see one for every hundred 101s (the .22 caliber version) at airgun shows. A nice 101 will run about $125-150, so I don’t think it’s too much to pay for the far rarer .177 version. Sure you will stumble into fantastic deals from time to time, but on any given day at a good airgun show, this is about what one of these will cost. They cost that much in the late 1990s, so the price isn’t being driven by inflation.

How I know it holds

Remember the picture I showed you in Part 1 of the cocking knob being unscrewed? If not, here it is again.

cocking knob
When the rifle is stored it gets two pumps of air and the cocking knob is unscrewed.

By unscrewing the cocking knob there is no pressure on the firing valve. If it is sealed well it should hold a long time. I’ve had multi-pumps hold air for more than a year.

Jeff Cloud told me the rifle had held air from the 2017 Texas Airgun Show (August 26) until he delivered it to me in early December. Now, I pumped it and shot it a couple times when I wrote the December 11 report on December 10. Today is December 21 and I screwed the knob back in and cocked the gun. Then I fired and it was still holding. That is my test for knowing if a multi-pump holds a charge.

The tests

Because the 100 is a multi-pump I’m going to test it a little differently than usual. I will talk you though my procedure in each section. I also plan to “larn ya” some things that a multi-pump lends itself to.

Test 1 — Crosman Premier lights

The first test will be conducted with Crosman Premier light pellets. I will test the rifle for velocity with 3 through 8 pumps, shooting 5 shots at each step and averaging them. I will give you the total spread and muzzle energy for each, as well

Pumps……Vel. avg…Total spread…..Energy ft. lb.
3……………429…………19……………3.23
4……………496…………06……………4.32
5……………540…………03……………5.12
6……………566…………10……………5.62 no air left
7……………591…………07……………6.13 no air left
8……………605…………06……………6.42 no air left

Let’s talk. First off I have to tell you that this rifle is quite difficult to cock. The knob doesn’t give a lot of purchase and I had to use two hands most of the time. Next I want to say the rifle is performing admirably. There was no air left outside the reservoir until the 8th pump stroke. At that point the pump lever would jump back open, indicating that there was a little compressed air that didn’t go into the reservoir and remained ahead of the pump head.

After 6, 7 and 8 pump strokes I cocked and fired the rifle again, and there was no air remaining in the valve. This is as good as a multi-pump tune ever gets.

Notice the law of diminishing returns starts after 5 pump strokes. You are doing a lot of work for less and less velocity increase. This shows what some airgunners have a hard time grasping — that higher pressure doesn’t always mean more velocity. If I were to continue pumping we would reach a point where the velocity stopped going up and started back down again. That’s valve lock. Air would remain in the gun for a second shot. I won’t do it with this rare old gun but I have done it with my Blue Streak back in the days when Crosman still made them. As I recall, it happened around 10 or 11 pump strokes.

One last thing to note is how the rifle performed on 3 pumps, compared to 4. Notice that the velocity spread drops from 19 f.p.s. to just 6 f.p.s. with just one more pump. That is because the valve is operating efficiently on 4 pumps but not as much on just 3. This is for you TalonSS owners who wonder why your rifles get squirrely when you dial the power adjuster as low as it will go. It’s the same thing as 3 pumps versus 4. The valve just isn’t as efficient at the lower pressure, or in the Talon SS case, with a lower striker impact.

Test 2

In this test we will see how a pneumatic powerplant performs. This will apply to all pneumatics, regardless of how the air gets inside.

You have read where a pneumatic and a gas gun (CO2) get more power with heavier projectiles. Let’s see that in action. We already know how much power a medium weight pellet generates on 8 pumps. What will a lightweight do? And how about a heavyweight?

Sig Match Ballistic Alloy pellet

The first test will be with the Sig Match Ballistic Alloy pellet. I will just do this once, now that we know how stable the rifle becomes with many pumps in it.

On 8 pumps the 5.2-grain Sig Match Ballistic Alloy pellet goes 712 f.p.s. At that velocity it generates 5.85 foot pounds of energy.

H&N Baracuda Match

Now let’s check a heavyweight. The H&N Baracuda Match weighs 10.65 grains and on 8 pumps the Crosman 100 spits it out at 540 f.p.s. At that speed the pellet generates 6.9 foot pounds.

So we have just seen an increase of a foot-pound of energy by moving from a lightweight pellet (5.85 foot pounds) through a medium weight pellet (6.42 foot pounds) to a heavyweight pellet (6.9 foot pounds). The same thing happens in all pneumatics, and the more powerful ones have a greater spread.

Trigger pull

The trigger pull on this rifle is extremely variable — from it won’t stay cocked to 1 lb. 10 oz. That’s too light for a direct sear gun that’s this old. I think some parts are worn and need replacing.

Power adjustability

As far as I know this rifle was never meant to have adjustable power, but that threaded cocking knob can make it happen. I unscrewed the knob 3 full turns and Premier lights dropped to 553 f.p.s. on 8 pumps. But since this is a multi-pump, why would you do something like that? Just pump it 5 or 6 times and get the same result.

Loading is hard

The 100 and 101 both have very little room for loading. The 100 is worse because it also has a smaller breech that’s hard to find. Wadcutters are especially hard to load. This might be the reason I got rid of my first one.

Summary

So far, so good. I find the Crosman 100 to be a fun gun to shoot, but the hard loading and cocking is a drawback. I like my 101 much better.

We will look at accuracy next.

202 thoughts on “Crosman 100 multi-pump pneumatic: Part 2


  1. B.B.,

    Would it detract much from the value or interfere with to change the cocking knob to something easier to grasp?

    Siraniko

    P.S. JimQwerty123 is right you published the article Crosman 100 multi-pump pneumatic: Part 1 on December 11, 2017 (/blog/2017/12/crosman-100-multi-pump-pneumatic-part-1/)





  2. B.B.,

    The Part 1 pictures show a very generous loading port until I see how little the bolt retracts.

    Q: (What) keeps the bolt from coming back further? A pin? A slot? If slot, the slot could be machined more forward allowing the bolt to retract further, thus giving more loading room. From the Part 1 pictures, it looks as if it can be pulled out completely. Since the cocking knob is independent of the bolt, that reduces interplay complexities as well.

    Just curious,… as usual. 😉

    Chris


  3. B.B.,

    Late last night I was surfing around the web, and I caught a glimpse of an Umarex Colt Peacemaker with the 4 3/4 inch barrel! It was in nickel, but still. Excited beyond words, I clicked on the thumbnail, only to discover that it was just a poorly cropped picture of the 5 1/2 inch model. :^(

    Then it occurred to me how intense my excitement was. I hadn’t realized just how badly I want that air gun to come out until that happened. It was one of the first things I thought about as I got out of bed this morning.

    Umarex, are you reading this?

    Michael


  4. I use tweezers to load pellets into the Crosman 100 and 101 rifles. Simply grab a pellet by the skirt and guide the head into the breech. A loose fitting pellet will just slide into the breech whereas a tight fitting pellet will need a push with your thumb or the opposite end of the tweezers. These ol’ Crosmans are great guns!


    • Dan Wesson Fan,

      I like the hobby tweezers that clamp when you let go. The blades cross and no hold pressure is required. Curved pointed tips. 4 5/8″long. The scoped Maximus was tuff to get used to at first, but I can load it in my sleep now. Tweezers would be good for stiff and/or arthritic hands and fingers. Not there yet, but it is coming no doubt. The pellet could be carefully held in place by the tweezers and the bolt could do the pushing/seating. No finger pushing required.



  5. B.B.

    I was surprised at your comment that the 100 was hard to cock.

    Guess I expected it to be the same as the 101 and I don’t recall ever being more that an easy pull to cock. But then I never had difficulty loading the 101 when I had the smaller nimble fingers of a teenager 🙂

    Going to be busy for the next couple of days so I will wish you all a very MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

    Cheers!
    Hank


  6. B.B,
    Love the look of this gun- a nice mix of wood and metal, unlike the Benjamin 392 & 397 which I think has too much wood. Just my preference.
    Merry Christmas B.B & all my fellow airgunners on this blog.
    Hope Santa is good to you this year.

    Live long and prosper

    Pete


    • I agree, Pete. The wood forestock on the 397/2 and the Sheridans is too long. If they were like this one or the old Benjamin 340 series they would look better, in my opinion.


  7. BB,

    You’ve shown that in a pneumatic gun a heavier pellet will generate more energy. I remember from my HS physics that if you start with a mass of 7gr and a velocity of 500 fps ,for example, you would get 3.89 fpe. If you were to double the pellet weight and it slowed down in the gun enough to reduce its velocity to 350 fps the energy would drop to 3.81 fpe. If the resulting velocity reduction was even greater with the heavier pellet, then the energy loss would increase as well. I seem to remember that it happens because in the formula, K.E.=1/2 Mass x Velocity x Velocity, the Velocity has greater influence on the outcome than the Mass does since the Velocity gets squared and the Mass gets halved or something along those lines. Back in the days when I subscribed to every gun mag in print I recall that as the frequent argument for light fast bullets over heavy slow bullets.( I don’t recall who won the argument 🙂 ) In order for an air gun to give more energy from a heavier pellet it can’t let it slow down too much in the process. So my question. after that long winded lead in is, What makes a pneumatic gun, especially, able to do this?



      • B.B.,

        Ewwwww!,….. Are you getting off that easy? Well, I suppose,.. that you can,… seeing how it IS your blog and all that stuff. 😉 Still, I thought that it was a good question,.. though perhaps a bit complex to explain in any kind of simplified way.

        Chris


    • Halfstep,

      I like the way you think and your ability to analyze and crunch numbers. A nice addition to the bunch here. Let’s just say that I could have applied myself a wee bit more back in H.S..

      I think that it boils down to (as BB eluded to) that a valve is built a certain way with certain parts. The end result is a valve that will have optimal performance under certain parameters. Change the valve and valve components, and it will act differently.


    • I have the same question.

      In math terms, the second thing after 1/2*M*V*V that comes to my mind is that the energy added to the pellet is Force x Distance. The interesting thing about that formula is that it has no obvious dependence on the pellet’s mass. It seems that the force should only depend on the compressed air pressure. Apparently there are some secondary forces that depend on the pellet’s mass and also on the source of pressurized air (reservoir vs. spring). I’m also assuming the valve stays open until the pellet leaves the barrel (so that Distance is the same for all pellets).


  8. BB,

    Okay, funny guy! Let me rephrase. How does compressed air from an airgun keep the velocity of increasingly heavier pellets from dropping to the point that the energy produced doesn’t drop of off and invalidate the blanket statement that heavier pellets produce more energy out of pneumatic airguns? And you were just asking for the run-on sentence! 😉


    • halfstep

      If you make a pellet big and heavy enough , it would barely move in the bore before the valve closes….using only a fraction of the air. Might not even get to the muzzle.

      tt


      • TT,

        Yeah, I get that, but it seems to hold true with most of the PCPs made today, in particular, with all of the different weight pellets that are commercially available. Heavier = more energy. Is it just coincidence that pellets aren’t made so heavy or barrels made so long that they impart so much resistance to the pellets forward movement that velocity would drop off, for a reduction in energy. And I’m referring to small bore airguns because they are all I have any experience with. Are pellets no heavier than they are simply because most guns wouldn’t stabilize them because of their excessive length and is barrel length limited because longer would be too cumbersome to sell well and as a result of those two things we just got lucky and can therefore safely state that heavier pellets will yield more energy from a pneumatic gun?

        I don’t reload for firearms and I don’t shoot black powder so I don’t really know what goes into adjusting for different weight bullets in those type guns. If I increase the bullet weight but use the same powder charge will I get more muzzle energy or do I need more powder? I assume that you wouldn’t want any of the powder to burn outside the barrel if you could help it so is the load closely matched to the bullet and is that why the airguns can give increasing power – they have a surplus of air available for each shot?

        I’m just tryin’ ta unnerstan !


        • I got interested in the discussion yeasterday on the difference in the two power plants spring piston and precharged pneumatic or multi-pump pneumatic. And I thought about it most of the day, I came up with this. The spring pistion is like a two stroke engine lots of rpm and horsepower and the pneumatic is like a steam engine lots of torq.

          Halfstep said it pretty well and I may not be as clear as he was but this is my attempt.

          The spring piston power plant is very clever and requires a balance to perform properly. It starts with all the potiential energy stored in the spring. Once the spring is released the potiential spring energy is transformed into air pressure (potiential energy) and spring and piston velocity (kenetic energy). These trade off as the piston completes its stroke using the kenetic energy in the piston and spring to provide even more air pressure near the end of the stroke. This combination gives a very high and short burst of energy that uses the air pressure to transfer that energy to moving the pellet. I do not know what the pressure is but it must be very high to get the pellet moving in a relatively short barrel lenth. So the spring pistion guns are limited by the size of the spring and piston and the strength of the shooter. Now if weight was not problem then you could use a crank to cock the piston and the massive dynamics would give good velocity even with the heaviest pellet. That momentum (both spring and piston) coming to a stop my not be easy to hold much less hit what you are shooting at. Thus the artillary hold for the real spring piston guns.

          The neumatic guns have all their potiential energy stored in air pressure. That leaves the design much easier, the larger the stored air volume the longer the barrel can be up to a point and the velocity will increase with pressure pushing the pellet over a longer distance. The pressure in a multi-pump or precharged pneumatic is not limited to a single pump or one cock of the spring so leverage and multiple pumps or an external power supply can create very large pressures and nearly limitless air volume for each shot. This allows a pressure maybe similar to the spring pistion at its peak to act on the pellet but for a longer periond of time giving it more velocity. A light pellet is probably coasting or at least accelerating slowly at the end of a long barrel pneumatic where a heavy pellet is accelerating all the way down the barrel. It is only when you try to make each shot as efficient as you can to save air in a precharged pneumatic that things get complicated. Not so much in a multi-pump where all the air is used for each shot.

          So the pellets kinetic energy is 1/2 mass x velocity x velocity to change that you need Force otherwise a body in motion will continue in that motion until acted on by a force.

          To change velocity (acceleration) you need force as in force = mass x acceleration. Or Force x time / mass = velocity. I just need more time.

          The physics of the air mass behind the pellet and in front of the pellet also affect all of the air guns I will leave that for someone else to tackle.

          Don


          • Don, Halfstep,
            This is an incredibly deep subject, one difference between spring guns and multi-pump or pcp guns that hasn’t been addressed is heat. When the piston moves forward compressing the air, temperature spikes and I wonder how much of the pellets velocity is attributed to that temperature rise and the accompanying increased in pressure?


            • Codeuce,

              Definitely diving on the deep end. Don’t over think it though. The adiabatic temperature rise lasts only a short time in a springer causing dieseling at best and detonation at worst. On a pumper the heat dissipates slowly akin to a quicky charged PCP with a rise in pressure that goes down as it cools. To illustrate if a PCP were charged quickly from a bottle to 3010 psi it would soon go down to 3000 psi in an hour once the compressed air has cooled.

              For further reading you will have to obtain a copy of Cardew’s experiments.

              Siraniko


              • Siraniko,
                If you took a springer and contained and stored the pressure developed by the compressive force of the spring and piston, and then released it after the temperature normalized like a multi pump, would it have the same amount of energy available to propel the pellet when compared to normal springer operation?


                • Codeuce,

                  I don’t think so. The Cardew’s experiment with firing a springer in a pure nitrogen atmosphere showed less velocity compared to an airgun fired in a regular atmosphere. So there is something else contributing to the velocity other than the compression of gas achieved by the rapidly expanding spring.

                  Siraniko


                • Coduece,

                  I had a very similar idea a few months back. I do not remember all of the specific details at the moment,… but at the time I can assure you that it was pure and simple brilliance! 😉

                  On your thought, a multi-pump requires you complete a pump stroke. As the pressure of the stored air increases, so does the pumping effort.

                  Now,… with a springer, that spring will only make a fixed amount of power. It can not increase it’s power to meet the higher pressure of stored air. See a problem?


                  • Chris,
                    Right that was a great way to explain that. So it’s more about the speed of the column of air rushing behind the pellet? And having enough volume to push the pellet to the end of the barrel?


                    • Coduece,

                      A bit tired at the moment. AM is my prime. The speed of a springer spring will not change. Restrict the transfer port (springer or multi-pump), and the air will be restricted. U.K. guns and U.S. guns,…. often the only thing different is the transfer port.

                      Take a lighter pellet, and it will start moving sooner than a heavier pellet. The lighter pellet will also go faster. The heavier pellet will take longer to start moving. Can there be “wasted air” with a springer? I do not know. I have never thought of a springer power plant in that way.

                      Can there be wasted air with a multi-pump? One might think so. They are similar to a PCP, so maybe. BB has shown that there can be air left over with a multi-pump. But can air be wasted? I do not know.

                      GF1 has proven that added spring length can do nothing to add to fps. How? He cut springs gradually and had 0% fps drop, to a point. Is something being wasted there?

                      One thing I have learned,… it is not all about 1 thing,.. but rather more about multiple things and how those multiple things intertwine with each other. The real challenge is figuring that “how” out. There is the basics. There is the tried and proven. Beyond that? I suppose that is why we are hanging out here? 😉


                  • Chris
                    Here’s a question

                    If you restrict the flow on a spring gun (smaller transfer port hole). Will it at some point increase are flow to the barrel/pellet?

                    You have heard of a venturi haven’t you? Remember carburetors on cars. Yep they have venturi’s.


                  • Chris
                    A venturi actually speeds up air flow on the exit side of the hole.

                    So one size hole compared to another might affect things more than thought. And then add in weight and fit of the pellet.

                    And as BB mentioned below that he did that with his spring gun already. Check out the link he gave.


                    • GF1,

                      I did. From what I gathered, there was not any noticeable difference other than a preferred range of port sizes for a given caliber.



              • Siraniko,

                3100 will go down to 3000 in 1 hour. Yes,… if you are trying to hit a sweet PSI point and then shoot right away, a slow fill (1 minute+) is ideal. I have never felt heat in the hot sense,… but there is definitely a slight warming effect on the micro bore hose. The slower the better on filling.


            • Coduece,

              I am near 100% sure that BB has said that back in the day of lower powered springers and petroleum based oils and greases,… that partial dieseling and/or light combustion on a regular basis, actually added to the fps.

              I have had the TX200 down a couple of times and the last time I must have got some grease where I was not supposed to. The first shot sounded like a .22 long.

              There is probably a break off point when a rifle will or will not diesel based on the power from the spring. I do not know what that is. Could a Red Ryder have enough power to detonate oil? I do not know. I think around 500 fps is when the chances increase.

              Just some thoughts to add to your thoughts.




                • GF1,

                  Yes,.. inconsistent velocities are not good. If I remember correctly,.. with leather piston seals,… the petrol based oil that was put on the leather seal,… also left a light film of the ignitable oil on the compression chamber walls. In a way, after the newly oiled seal was shot a few times,.. I suppose that the whole process becomes a bit regulated meaning that you will have the same oil film each time and thus the same amount of ignition/dieseling/detonation each time.


            • Coduece,

              Hers is a link that is (well) worth some time exploring. It explains A LOT of stuff and what is really cool is that a lot of the demonstrations actually animate. They move. There is scope stuff too and lots more. It is so good that it ought to be one of the very first thing that a new air gunner should study. I hope that you find it interesting.

              http://www.arld1.com/


              • Chris USA,
                Thanks for the link there is so much great information there! I highly recommend it! Once again your pointing airgunners in the right direction, that’s why your such a valuable asset to the blog.
                Carl


                • Coduece,

                  Yes, that one is one of the very best out there. I have often thought that if I was B.B. and new airgunner came on board,.. I would point them there as a good start. Here is good as well, as we all know,… but that is near a one stop shop for all of the basics info. and some semi-advanced as well. All in what is essentially 1 page. The moving animations help to bring it all together and make things easier to grasp too.

                  Save the site and pass it on when the opportunity presents itself.


    • Halfstep,

      How can a 100-lb. woman push a 3,000 lb. car faster and faster until she pushes it as fast as she can run? The car has friction with the ground. Why doesn’t it stop?

      Well, stop pushing it and eventually it will stop. Pellets work the same way.

      That same woman can push a grocery cart just as fast and it will only have a fraction of the energy that the car has.

      Think about it.

      B.B.


      • BB,

        The car has more mass ,so more potential energy. I’ve got that. Because the woman is not pushing the car or the grocery cart straight up in the air, only a small amount of it’s weight comes into play( if I remember my HS Physics chapter on Vector Analysis correctly) , hence double the weight doesn’t result in double the load on the power plant. So I guess the reason it happens ( heavier pellet = more energy ) is that the gun has an ample surplus of air that even in the case of the heavier pellet it is still accelerating up to the point that it leaves the barrel. Or put another way, the gun has a reserve of energy that IT can impart on a heavier pellet up to a point. This happens to continue for a good, practical range of weights, but it is not infinite.

        How’d I do Obi Wan ?



          • B.B.,

            Yes, the pressure behind the pellet will drop as it moves down the barrel, assuming that the valve has already closed. A good argument to have just a wee bit more of an air dump than needed. Of course, a chrony can help to figure all of that out in pretty short order.

            Chris


            • Chris
              That’s the trick to tuning a PCP.

              Get enough air flow from the valve to push the pellet out the barrel. But don’t have excess air left over after the pellet leaves the barrel.

              If it was only that easy though. 🙂



                • Chris
                  Yep true sort of with the chrony.

                  The chrony will show your max velocity you reached. But it won’t show when your using excess air.

                  You would have to go a step farther and document air usage on the gun after you get max velocity.

                  But you know max velocity isn’t always what gives the best or should I say least amount of spread when shooting a shot string.

                  Once you get it adjusted to not use excess air after it leaves the barrel but also keeps the pellet accelerating till it leaves the barrel will give the most efficient tune.


  9. B.B.,

    Hard to cock. That reminded my of my Remington 33. When I first shot it i could not cock it. I tied a shot cord to the knob and a handle like a lawnmower pull rope. Did the same for my Grandson when he started shooting it. Great memories.

    I have been watching for a 101 for a while now. Maybe this will get Vana going on his, hint hint.

    Don


  10. Off topic here, this is about the Airgun1 target spinner by reader/manufacturer Codeuce. Turns out I have Spinner #1 – the first one mailed by Codeuce so it’s a collectors item. I can’t shoot at it so no review! Only kidding. Here are my thoughts – this is a substantial piece of equipment. The base is approximately 1/8″ flat stock with two mounting holes punched into it at either end (I believe it’s punched and not drilled but Codeuce can correct me). Welded to the base is a 4″ long piece of 1″ hollow box stock. The other end is welded shut but on an angle. With what I think is a roller bearing used on gravity type conveyor belts (the type used for unloading cartons from a trailer (teenage supermarket worker back in the 60’s)), there are two pieces of small flat stock welded to opposite ends of the bearing and then different sized (and weight) target discs or washers bolted to the arms. What I thought was really clever is that the roller, being mounted on an angle to the top of the box stock introduces a camber which allows the spinner and bearing to always re-center itself so that the target discs always face the shooter. This piece of equipment can be used in the vertical or horizontal position thanks to that introduced camber. Codeuce included 4 flat washers to adjust the spin velocity as well as two sheetrock screws for mounting. His hardware is top drawer, using locknuts to attach the bearing and target discs.

    If all you use are .22 and smaller caliber air rifles, I can’t see how this target can be destroyed. It’s a lifetime investment. I also can’t see how Codeuce is selling these for $30 and making any money! Probably costs more to light up the welder to do the two welds.

    Fred formerly of the DPRoNJ now in GA


    • Fred
      Thank you for the kind words and excellent description of my targets, sounds like your happy so far. Yes, the base plate holes are punched, I had some parts fabricated as I don’t have a brake or punch yet. As far as the price, this may be an introductory offering. I have made only enough to do a effective test market that will hopefully answer question, and shed light on whether this is a viable product from a demand perspective, as well as a profitability standpoint. I greatly look forward to hearing about your experience shooting it. Thanks again
      Carl


      • Coduece,

        So,… if I am reading the cards correctly, there may be a price increase on the horizon? My personal opinion is that 30$ is maxed out already. If I made them myself, my opinion on that may differ. At any rate, I do not have any and yours looks to be as good or better than any out there.

        Notes are made and I have days off till after the new years. I plan to order at least 1, if not 2. Would you do a direct check ahead of an order in lieu of an online order? I am in no hurry. I assume that will pocket you some more $? If so, I can e-mail the site direct and get the info.. If not, then I will go through the site as a usual order. Let me know.


        • Chris USA,
          I hope there is no price increase, and with the new tax plan maybe not. But this has been a major learning experience, and we’re still learning. Shipping has been a major variable for us,and we’re still trying to get a handle on shipping cost and how to distribute them. Also not having an exact tax rate leaves us questioning. Until we sell a significant number and average this stuff out we are just making educated guess’s. So I’m not really sure if our number is good however for about the price of two tins of premium pellets you can have countless hours of shooting fun. And as far as purchasing I guess it’s really better to just order off of airgun-1.com the price is the same and it allows us to track things more effectively. I really appreciate everyone’s input and support.
          Carl


          • Coduece,

            Ok, will do. I thought that there was no sales tax, unless it is sold in your state. GF1 does not pay tax on P.A. stuff, but I do as I live in the same state as P.A.. On the shipping, I don’t know. I did send GF1 three bottles of hot sauce one time and the shipping was like 7-8$ through the post office. They have that “if it fits, it ships” thing at a the post office.

            At any rate, the very best of wishes on continued success.



              • GF1,

                Ahhhhhh!,…. my “evil” plan has finally come to fruition. Hook you on the stuff and then start running the price up! 😉 You sound pretty hard up. The 2-4 word sentences and all.

                To make more, I need a supply of peppers, which I do not have. At least not what I used. I am not even sure now what I did use. If you are really hard up, cut up a (1) Habanero, prefer red or orange, the whole thing, super fine. Pour out 2 bottles of A-1 and simmer on real low, covered, for about 45 minutes. Cool and pour back into the bottles and refrigerate. That should get you in the ball park. If you want to thin it at all, just (cool it first) and use white vinegar, but “just” enough.

                Tabasco Chipotle and Cholula Chipotle are 2 you need to try. Every day at Walmart,… from their rather limited selection.


          • Coduece,

            Recently someone here described a “shield”, for lack of a better word, for the bearing on your spinners. Below is an illustration of something that I think might work and be simple to form and would take the place of the two arms that have to be fabricated and welded to the bearing anyway. The arrows mark where the welds would be placed. Only the side facing the shooter would need the extra protection. I offer this only if you find that the bearing even needs protection.


            • Halfstep
              Great minds think alike, I have similar ideas for both targets like you say if necessary. I think the bearing will easily withstand the occasional hit at the current recommended power levels. However we both know airgunners push the limits. And I feel a solution if a problem arises is easily incorporated. However that entails higher cost and something I’m hoping to learn is just what will consumers pay for a quality target? I really appreciate the idea and btw I have a product coming out soon that’s going to help with your obstacle course of a shooting range.
              Carl


      • Codeuce,

        I also ordered your spinner same one as Fred.

        Iwas thinking along the same lines as Chris but went ahead and ordered one off the web site. I had no problems and recieved mine a few days ago. My brother in law came over and we blasted away with a few hundred .22 pellets with absolutely no problems with your spinner. We both realy enjoyed it.

        Good job and thanks for the fun target.

        Don


      • Coduece,

        I looked at your site and also at BB’s Part 2 article with the 2 videos. I noticed that in the video, BB had the FSH model mounted horizontally. That is not really the question. The question is that the one in the video had a very strong tilt to the paddles. The FSH on you site shows no such tilt. Did something change? Assuming that the tilted one is used, but mounted in a vertical fashion, it would seem to come at rest and present the paddles to the shooter (if the tilt was positioned left/right in relationship to the shooter).

        If the straight axis FSH is mounted vertical, there would no control to the paddles presenting themselves to the shooter,.. as opposed to the tilted axis FSH.

        Any help/info. appreciated. Looking to order, just doing a bit of homework first.

        If you could, (answer at the bottom) as it is getting a bit hard to back track up here and find anything.

        Thanks,…. Chris

        I am considering the use and placement and trying to envision what would work best for me.


        • Chris,
          One thing I didn’t want was for the photos on the website to look like a Craigslist add. So the technique I used was to lay the targets on their side and photograph them in the horizontal position from above. This eliminated a lot of the shadows. I was reasonably happy with the results, but yes it does appear that there is no camber or incline on the FSH target. However rest assured this is the same target that B.B. shot in the blog.
          I really appreciate the exposure this blog has provided, but at the same time I realize the primary purpose of the blog is to educate and inform airgunners. I feel like that has been accomplished with our targets. The last thing I want is to take advantage B.B.’s graciousness or impose our promotion on the fine readers here. The most important thing is I feel like I have made friends here, and I don’t want to jeopardize that through perceived shilling of our targets.
          Anyone who has specific Free Spin target questions can submit them to me at cisleyag1@gmail.com.
          Carl


          • Coduece,

            Thank you. Look for an order within a few days.

            For bearing protection, I am going to mount an 11 ga., (1/8″) steel plate that will cross the line of sight to cover the bearing. (90 degrees to the paddle axis) This will be mounted ahead of the spinner at a distance enough so as not to interfere with paddle spin. If I mess up and get a rouge shot, the 11 ga. will take the hit. I have shredded enough cans at 30, 50, 70 and 100 yards and have seen the potential damage.

            I may leave them out and just cover them with a coffee can, but maybe not.


            • Chris USA,
              Great minds think alike, I was considering that, I called it a bearing sneeze guard but trying to keep cost down didn’t allow it. Although if bearing damage happens frequently during the test market I may rethink this.
              Carl


              • Coduece,

                Though I do not have one, I can not see the bearing taking a (direct) hit unless it thicker than what I think. (I am thinking .22 Maximus at 50 yards, even 30 yards) For the guard, it would not have to attached or welded. Just bend a 90 L and add a couple of mounting holes. People are going to mount them to boards anyways. You could even incorporate a “lay out” in or on your instruction sheet, if there is one, for anyone that has difficulty grasping the concept.



  11. Just thought I mentioned this. Absolutely dead calm out today. And of course had to get some shoot’n in before head’n off to work.

    But I got out my old FWB 300 and see if the ole girl could still dance. Haven’t shot her in awhile now. Been engulfed in the dark side powers if you know what I mean.

    But yep the ole girl can still do the one hole holie pokie. 🙂

    Anyway off to work I go. Short night tonight. Got a half day vacation in then I’m off for the holidays. Might have to go in one or so days next week depending on what goes on. But can’t wait to be off for a bit. You know what I’ll be do’n while I’m off. 🙂


    • GF1,

      It’s been a little windy here for the last few days but it was coming from a good direction so it was directly behind me or quartering from behind me. Not too much cross wind. Main thing is it’s been warm and I did some 50 yard work with my new Gamo Urban. Much better results to report than with the stormrider. I need to get all the results organized so it will probably be next week before I post, with the holiday and all. Speaking of which, Merry Xmas to everyone!

      I am also doing some more work with the idea of using a set pressure in my SCBA tank to simulate a regulator. I’ve been messing with it some today, since it’s warm but rainy, but BB keeps giving me physics word problems to solve, so I’m not as far along as I might be otherwise. 😉 I’ll probably fool around with it more over the weekend, as I can, and post anything that might be interesting next week. Truth be told, I’ll probably end up posting some uninteresting stuff, too ( If you’re reading this BB, please tell me if this is a valid experiment, if you know, because I’m destined to spend a lot of time on it, exploring many different aspects of it, if nobody backs me away from it )

      GF, do you work second shift? I worked third ( 10pm-6am where I worked ) for 39 of my 42 years there. Only worked second ( 2pm-10pm) for six months and never wanted to do it again! Enjoy your holiday and I hope you get some time off next week along with good shooting weather.


      • Halfstep
        It’s been windy here for weeks it seems lately with only maybe a day or two break from the wind on different days. So I definitely wanted to get the spring guns out today. And I hope the wind does take a break to for awhile.

        And will be waiting for your Urban results as well as your tethered bottle experiments.

        And I just started at this machine shop a little over a year ago and been working days. I worked at my other job for 32 years and it was mostly second shift. I did some days and third shift though. And now I work at the shop that actually builds the machines we worked on and ran production on at the other shop I worked at. Just went back on 2nd shift about a month or so ago here. By my choice. It works out at home better that way for many reasons.

        And yep on the holidays. And definitely got shooting planned for each day.


    • Gunfun1

      Enjoy the time off! Somehow I get the impression that you enjoy pushing air accurately and often as much as me.

      Merry Christmas to you and every reader,

      Decksniper


  12. GF1,

    Nice enough here too,… except that it is 50 and drizzle. 50 I can work with. Drizzle, not so much. Ya’ all,… get ya’ all a heated and A/C cooled breezeway like GF1 has and you too can shoot year ’round. My indoor 41′ range is looking better by the minute. 🙁 It works to “itch” the ol’ trigger finger,.. but I like at least 25 yards minimum. A garage might work as well, but since most are pointed towards the road/street,… you might want to think carefully before going “there”. 😉 Just sayin’.

    I might have to cook up a test with the A.V. air stripper and the baffle insert that screw directly on the 1/2-20 threads on the Hunter version of the Maximus. The initial 50 yard test was quite interesting. 1″groups, but they moved quite a lot depending on the stripper setting or if the baffle insert was used. No pellet clipping,.. incase you are wondering. Tomorrow is out, but after that I have 9 days to play.



    • Chris USA,

      Same weather here and same feelings about it. I picked up an off brand EZ up canopy at the end of the summer for $40 at Academy Sports. I have accumulated a number of the “Free With Purchase” poly tarps from Harbor Freight. Turns out the tarps will pretty much close off each side of the 10 square foot canopy, with the addition of a few lengths of paracord. I intend to set this arrangement up next to my house in the backyard with a shooting window cut in it and an inexpensive propane radiant heater to keep it warm, so I can shoot through the winter. If I open the back gate of my privacy fence I can shoot at 26 yards. Not Ideal but better than the 12 yds that my basement affords. There is a deep storm drainage ditch and a railroad track behind me so ,technically, if I’m willing to climb down into the ditch (25 feet) wade the water (30 feet) climb out the other side (another 25 feet) to set up a target and reverse it all to get back to my shooting position, I could shoot at as much as 65 or 70 yards. I’ll have to give that more thought.

      I originally got this idea as a way to smoke cigars comfortably outside in the winter, but after my second set of heart stents I finally had to quit smoking and re-purpose the idea.;-) If you’re interested, I’ll let you know how it works out.

      When I got my first adult air rifle a few years after I moved here, I did actually shoot out of my garage. ( It was mostly a big empty cinder block room, back then. Those were the days.) It was 48 yards to the end of my driveway and I used a .22 caliber rated bullet trap backed up by a 4×8 sheet of 1/2 plywood. I live on a semi dead end street that only has about 20 houses between me and the end and I got home from work by 6:20 am. After the neighborhood kiddies got picked up at the bus stop and their parents left for work, there was almost zero traffic and shooting didn’t attract any attention at all. Now I have a travel trailer that I can barely maneuver my truck around sitting in the way and I’m not sure that I could hold the center of a 5 foot long 2 X 4 against my chest and spin without knockin’ a bunch of stuff in the floor of my garage. LOL


      • Halfstep,

        Of course I am interested on how it turns out. I could do the very same thing with the tarp/tent idea. Set up in the fall and drag out a heater and equipment. I am not so sure that I am that dedicated though. If retired, the whole idea might hold a bit more appeal.

        25 ft. climb down, 30 ft. wade, 25 ft. climbing is some dedicated shooting! It sounds more like a boot camp obstacle course! If done, that would be a 1 trip trek for sure and set out a whole bunch of targets. Repeat the next time out. Some all weather spinners might be the answer,… or something. Heck, a tin can on a stick will last quite awhile. I keep them at 30, 50, 70 and 100 yards. Painted fluorescent orange.


        • Chris USA,

          ” 1 trip trek for sure” is right! I have actually set up my extension ladder in the past to make the nearside decent easy for some catch and release panfishing. The ditch used to carry waste water that was treated in a plant here in our subdivision as well as storm water. A new pipeline was put in several years ago to carry waste water separately to a central treatment plant and only storm water goes in the ditch now, but I ain’t eatin’ the fish. I figure there has to be some poop in there somewhere !


        • Chris USA,

          I could leave targets up all winter if I wanted. The ditch doesn’t get mowed after September so it wouldn’t put any of the city’s employees or equipment at risk as long as I moved it before mowing restarted next year.

          It’s funny that you mentioned the fluorescent paint. I bought a case of water based fluorescent orange underground line marker paint this spring . I paint tin cans ( soda cans are so flimsy that ,at distance, sometimes you can’t tell that you hit them) so they are more visible at long range. Crazy I know, but, as they say, it’s the little things… I also collect the small limbs that fall into my yard and cut them into thin wafers on my bandsaw. I then paint them orange on both sides. When the water in the ditch is flowing at a nice lazy rate, I go upstream and throw a dozen of them into the water frisbee style and sit in a lawn chair on the upper bank behind my house and shoot them as they float by. They are made of wood and the paint is environmentally friendly so it does no harm. It’s down in a 25 foot ditch so there is little chance of the ricochet that would endanger anyone. The line marker paint is great to work with because you can just lay whatever you want to paint right on the ground and the can is designed to spray straight down and the paint won’t hurt your yard if that’s where you happen to be using it.


          • Halfstep,

            I have used it. That is a great idea and environmentally friendly to boot. That would be great moving target practice. Yes, the .25 M-rod will blow through a steel can at 50 yards and barely move it. At 100, it will send it 5′ up and 10′ feet back with a good hit in the right spot. The pellets will shred a steel can at 100,… 100%. I have saved many to show friends. I am not quite sure if they believe me or not, as most of the time they just have a dumbfounded look on their face. 😉 At work, we have poles set at 20 feet apart. I say,.. “See that pole? See that pole? That is 100 yards. This is the can”. I do enjoy that! 🙂



              • Halfstep,

                Well,… I can not add much to that.

                We are lucky to be living at a time when air guns are at their pinnacle,.. or are they?

                In fact, it would be VERY interesting to hear peoples opinions on what they think about how it (was), how it is (now),.. and what do they see for the (future).

                Pull out all the stops,… speculate, within reason, on what air gunning could be. What is left to improve upon? Accuracy always,… but what else?

                We are a pretty informed bunch here thanks to BB and the blog. There ought to be some opinions I would think.


                • Chris
                  BB mentioned this just recently. And I agree.

                  The screw on bottle pcp’s is the next wave of air gun technology I believe. And especially the screw on regulated bottles.

                  What’s cool about them is one bottle can be used on different guns.

                  For example my QB79 regulated Air Venturi bottle can be used on a Electronic burst of steel gun. Also known as the EBOS. Also my Steel Storm with the adapter set up. And some of the Sig tactical looks guns. And tethered like I did on my Maximus when I first got it. And the AirForce guns with their Co2 adapter. And even the new regulated Gauntlet. Yep basically the same bottle setup on a Gauntlet but a different name.

                  Maybe there will be some spring power plants that boost air pressure for each cocking and releasing of a spring piston like a supercharged multi-pump gun.

                  Or maybe something like I did with the hand pump by adding intake air pressure. But add it to a fitting in the gun you can hook up to that supply’s added higher intake pressure to a multi pump. Either less pumping or higher pump pressure.

                  Not that almost I mentioned would work. But the thought is there that could change air gunner ng in the future.

                  And thinking more. Maybe there is a pellet design that has not been thought about yet. Or something added or taken away from what we now have.

                  I don’t think we are peeked out on air gunning designs yet.


                  • And since this was brought up.

                    I know someone mentioned this before and sorry for not remembering who. The brain don’t remember like it use to.

                    But couldn’t you imagine a pump gun that uses a spring gun compression chamber to fill a pump gun up to pressure.

                    Basically open the pump arm to cock the gun but when you close the arm it cocks the gun. And when it’s fully closed it hits a button that is a trigger. Then the piston fires and fills the air valve.

                    So you pump as normal with a multi-pump but you charge the gun with air from each pump/firing of the spring piston.

                    Now that would be a cool gun.


                    • GF1,

                      See up top, around 1/3 of the way down on Coduece’s idea and my reply. I had the same/similar idea awhile back. ( a spring piston to create a charge for a pneumatic) Comment down here, as there is little room up top.


                    • GF1,

                      I think that would work. That would allow the pressure chamber to be charged with some pcp type pressures. Would be complicated though maybe two trigger mechanisms and the intake valve into the pressure chamber would need to be quick.

                      I wonder how a spring piston would work once the back pressure starts to build up. I think you would loose the benefit of the momentum from the piston in developing high pressure. If that is the case then there would be no benefit over pumping.

                      Not sure it would improve on the FX Independence.

                      Don


                    • I think this is a good analogy

                      A spring piston is like a hammer.

                      A multi-pump is like a hydraulic jack.

                      Both can be used to compress a piston but they do it differently.



          • Halfstep
            I don’t know if you were posting when Buldawg was.

            But I mentioned to him to get one of those pop up hunting blinds and put a propane space heater in it. And we went as far as looking up how to make one of those ice chest air conditioners for summer time. You know the ones you put your sudsy beverages in to keep cold while your fish’n. Search it and see what you come up with.



              • Halfstep
                Yep the Midwest definitely has it’s variaty of temperatures and weather that’s for sure.

                But I have always been hot blooded. We me and my buddies hunted and such when we was kids it could be 20° outside and could stay out all day and they would be ready to go get warmed up.

                We use to have what we called our club house out in the woods. We made it from old skids or pallets or what ever their called and scrap lumber people would throw out. We had a old steel 5 gallon water bucket someone threw away. Had a flat peice of sheet metal with a hole in it with some heater duct attached to it. That was our chimney. Had a hole in the roof it went through. So all we had to do was lift the sheet metal top and start a fire with some old fallen branches in the bucket. And then put the top back on. We had a hole on the side of the bucket that we put a peice a sheet metal in front of. That was our damper that we could open or close more to control the oxygen to the fire. It worked surprisingly good since it was only about a 12′ square floor.

                See what you got me remembering now. Won’t never forget though. Good ole memories for sure.


            • GF1,

              A pop up blind would be perfect, except I already have the other stuff that I mentioned. I wish I had thought of it.

              I will still look into it since I may find a good deal at the end of hunting season and the setup that I have in mind would be pretty hard to cool because it would be too big. I will look into that ice chest cooler though. It might work with the smaller blind setup.

              As far as heating your club house goes, what in the world were you doing runnin’ around away from home with all the no-goods and pedophiles that were just waitin’ to GIT YA and risking your life playing with fire and ,no doubt, settin’ yourself up for a serious infection or lock jaw from dirty hands and sharp rusty metal, and not to mention catching pneumonia by being OUTSIDE, of all places, in the winter! It’s a wonder that you survived to be here with us today.

              Different world.


              • Halfstep
                You know what I was doing. Being a kid. And a lucky one at that to be blessed to live at that given time.

                As it goes. We don’t really know how blessed we are till the time has passed.


  13. I have no trouble loading the rifle but it’s a bugger to pull that smooth hammer. A leather boot lace works as a pull cord and looks good.

    I use 6 pumps and once in awhile 8. Not pellet fussy, likes Superdomes and Crosman.


  14. Chris and all
    Since we are talk’n push’n pellets down the barrel. We was just taking about Lloyd Sikes and the Benjamin Rouge and the old air gun that used a timed lock to regulate the low pressure it made by came and springs and levers. I couldn’t search it for you earlier. But here is some stuff.
    http://www.airgunlab.com

    http://www.crosman.com/connect/meet-lloyd-sikes-innovator-behind-the-evalve/

    /blog/2008/12/an-outside-lock-rifle-by-gary-barnes/


    • And reading through the comments on the Barnes air gun. I could definitely sense that pcp’s was a new breed of modern airguns at that time on BB’s blog. Interesting comments is all I can say.


  15. OMG
    And now we know how the term “The Dark Side” derived from.

    This is quoted from the Barnes blog comments BB did.

    “.22 Multi-Shot
    December 19, 2008 at 8:23 pm
    BB,

    I file away many of your posts in the “cogitate” section of my brain without commenting. Love hearing about airgun design and how they work!

    Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

    Mr B,

    Yep, there were some clever people back in the “dark ages”!

    .22 multi-shot”


  16. We got our first snow of this winter last night. About 3 inches.

    I love when it does. I’m getting ready to go out and shoot snow. Yep shoot snow. First think that I like is I can shoot out in the feild and see the pellet impacts through the scope. Works real nice for checking hold overs.

    And the other fun things to do is make snow balls and place them out in the yard and blast away. Real fun with a WildFire or 1077.

    And definitely got to have sun glasses on. Easy to get snow blind real quick especially if you shoot long. Anyway. Here I go snow shoot’n. 🙂


  17. Just curious, what others experiences are with pellet damage.
    I ordered several types of .22. In the JSB tester pack, the types with thinner skirts show a lot of deformed pellets, roughly 20% of them. Not the kind you have to look closely to see either.

    I’m guessing its due to rough handling with high volume during Christmas.


    • Idaho
      Shoot them and see what happens. I have. Had good results accuracy wise. There has been articles written on the subject too.

      And yep I’m betting shipping is the cause. Not when they package them. JSB is pretty thorough on pellet quality. They have a crew of women that actually hand inspect going into the tins.



        • Idaho
          Yep the skirts do get blown out. And the PCP guns seem to be better at doing that.

          I sent some to Chris on time and the skirts got damaged if I remember right. If I remember right he gave a report of what happened.

          Maybe he can say more.


    • Idaho,

      GF1 is right. They will shoot pretty good. I got my LGU from him and some pellets he threw in on the deal. About 20% looked like those. I sent GF1 10 of the worst. He shot them and he got pretty good results. The thinner skirt will help and so will re-forming the skirt a bit with a pen cap first. Like he a said, a PCP will provide the best skirt re-expansion.

      I still have some and primarily use them chrony testing and indoor Winter shooting.

      There was a fellow that had a blog and bought quite a few high end PCP’s and did some really nice write ups. He hunted with them as well. He also did testing. One of his test was (exactly) the testing of damaged pellets. The short story is that the damaged ones performed with little to no difference. The test was quite extensive,.. as he was known for doing.

      I wanted to post a link as I often save things like that. It seems that I have deleted it and now that I think more,… I think the fellow passed and the site was taken down. Maybe someone else will have it saved or remember it.

      For your .22. I think that the JSB 15.89’s and 18.13’s will do good. They do great in most any gun. They are GF1’s go-to pellets as well as mine. I do not know if I could do a sampler pack. My idea of a sampler pack is the small 250 tin vs the larger 500 tin. Plus, that gives more “sampler packs” for in the future when tuning or getting a new air gun. I do not trust myself to shoot the best every time. I like to repeat the testing over at least 2-3 sessions. I also do not like to be too close when doing pellet evaluation either. 25 yards is preferred.

      Now,…. all of that aside,….. did you get it yet? Are you able to post some pics? How does it shoot?


      • Chris

        I thought about how packages are thrown around like footballs during the busy Christmas rush and decided that since my tank won’t be here for a bit anyway, to delay shipping until next week.


        • Oops hit post by accident…

          Very interesting about deformed pellets. It would be nice to see the testing.
          I did get the JSB in both sizes, the test pack so I could experiment a little, and some 16 grain from Air Arms (which I think are JSBs) just because I saw a report of these being the best he had found in the wolverine. I also plan to pick up some Premiers at Walmart.

          I’m impressed with what technical info is available on the net for airgunners. I keep finding more.
          Likely you guys have seen these but here are a couple I found to be excellent for those who may be learning like myself.

          http://arld1.com/
          The animations here are outstanding. Very helpful in thinking through a lot of the pressure dynamics in the recent conversation here.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1z4auc9hmE&list=PLJtIBVn6GmaTSkPSH96Vy7HWEdWO9iexY
          A seven part series on airgun ballistics.

          Merry Christmas


          • Idaho,

            I just linked the 1st one to Coduece a bit ago. 🙂 Yes, it is stellar. On the AA pellets, JSB makes them but they are AA owned dies, if I recall correctly. So they may have some difference. I have tried the 16 grain AA as well, but for some reason the JSB’s always edged them out in my testing. 15.89 and 16.0 is a joke. Get a grain scale and you will see what I mean. If I get real serious on testing,… I will weigh and sort just to eliminate 1 more variable. Shoot all the same weight. If I want to get super serious in .25, I can use the Pelletgage. Again, eliminating another variable. From my personal experience though, I apparently do not shoot well enough for me to tell the difference in sorted and non-sorted. Others can see it and swear by it.


        • Idaho,

          Probably a good call. (Thanks for the update). I do not know where you got the pellets from, but P.A. does a stellar job on packing them. Cut out med. density foam surrounds the cans with card board between each can when getting several all packed in a custom fit box. Never an issue.

          Have a great Holidays! 🙂 My big family X-mas was Sat., so I am just chillin’ from here on out for the next 9 days.


          • Chris,

            I did order from PA – great packaging but perhaps nothing can eliminate the effects of playing football 🙁

            I’ve thought about the pellet gauges, and kinda wonder, especially with a thin skirt pellet that gets formed as its shot if this is of any real value. I imagine testing info is out there – somewhere.

            Chillin is good 🙂


            • Idaho,

              The general consensus is the head diameter is the biggest factor. Thus the reason for the Pelletgage. The skirt will change and expand. In (general), I have found about a 70%/30% or 80%/20% split in head size in .25 (6.37mm/6.38mm) as just an example.

              I also believe in what I call,.. “Luck of the Landing”. Assuming that 1 pellet will go a touch left and another will go a touch right,… now, throw in the factor that you will be doing the same thing, as a human. You can see where “LUCK” will be in your favor one time, in one group,… (you pull left, but the pellet goes right. Next shot, you pull right and the shot goes left = tighter group) and then work just the opposite in the next group. Toss in wind and other factors,… and it is a wonder we ever get a “good” group at all! 😉


      • Chris and Idaho
        The blog the fellow did was called the varmint hunting blog. It shut down January 1st of this recent year. And he got cancer is the reason that the blog was stopped. I don’t know if he has passed though. I wish there was more information about him. He did have a good blog.

        Here is his blog. And I had some reports he did bookmark. But they don’t work no more. Just like this link. If you use the search button nothing will come up.

        I’m posting the link so maybe someone has some info about what went on.
        http://varmintair.typepad.com


  18. B.B.,

    Perhaps you could a test of damaged pellets (while you are doing your regular testing) sometime? A mini-blog within another if you will. GF1 and I have discussed it the past and Idaho just encountered it. Unless you have already done a blog on the topic, some testing/input from you on the topic would be appreciated. Just an idea.

    Thanks,…. Chris


  19. Speaking of the “Way Back Machine”,… something from Christmas Eve of (last) year. A bit “corny”,… but I will submit you all to it once again:

    Chris USA
    December 24, 2016 at 9:19 am

    For all,…

    Twas the night before Christmas, just hanging around ~ The pellet’s were flying, one holers abound

    The ammo it dwindles, of this I am ‘ware ~ So some I must save, to shoot the next year

    So out came the cloth, and wiping ensued ~ As B.B. has taught us, it keeps them like new

    Tired and weary, I stumble to bed ~ The smell of Ballistol, still fresh in my head

    Now maybe the fumes, the nog or the brew ~ As slumber crept up, strange dreams did ensue

    First up was small pistols, dwarfed by huge scopes ~ What could be the purpose, of none.. I would hope

    Next was the pellets, some even had teeth ~ The ad clearly said, “they’ll chew right through meat”!

    From there it got worse, a nightmare it seemed ~ so many strange things, what did they all mean?

    I sprang from the bed, feet hitting cold floor ~ My heart started slowing, bad dreams were no more

    Groggy and shaky, I poured a strong cup ~ The nog and the brew, I just might give up

    I clicked on “The Blog”, and soon it is clear ~ With B.B. and all, I’ve nothing to fear

    So blessings I counted, all big and all small ~ To be part of this crew, is the best gift of all



  20. Benji-Don
    There was nowhere to reply above.

    But yes I do believe that air compression could be done in different ways to power a multi-pump gun.

    And not like the hpa FX Independence.

    I mean like a Crosman pump gun. A spring powered piston should be able to replace the pump mechanism on a multi-pump.

    And like anything. Sooner or later physics will put a limit on what can be achieved.


    • GF1,

      Like I stated way above,… the spring on a springer will only be able to make a fixed amount of power. The difference being that a multiple pump overcomes that increasing stored air pressure by increasing the effort to complete a stroke. A springer has no such ability to overcome that. It will work to a point,… but then no more.


      • Chris
        True
        But what I’m getting at is the original equipment pump arm and piston and valve will only accept so much air to a point. Once you pump above that point nothing else happens.

        I believe the spring piston pump would do the same. But possibly achieve that same pressure sooner.


        • GF1,

          That would be one seriously NASTY springer. I do not think that it would work. One fire/charge, yes. Beyond that, what is going to happen??? The air that the springer can generate has now been equalized/stopped in stored air. Cock and fire/charge again and what is going to happen? Nothing I think. The sear may release, but the piston will be stopped by equalized air pressure.

          A multi-pump overcomes that by increasing pump effort. The spring power plant has no such ability.


          • Chris
            Your not getting one I’m saying I don’t think.

            First how much volume of air does let’s say a 1322 piston make when it compresses air and then stores it in the valve with one pump. Then pump 4 more times.

            Now let’s use a spring to move that same piston. And let’s do it 5 times.

            Do you still think that the spring will not compress enough air in the valve to shoot the pellet?


            • GF1,

              We need a 3rd party opinion. We are dead locked.

              B.B.?,… (or others),.. if you are out there,… please jump in. On the other hand,… if you have a “warm” glow and relaxing in front of a roaring fire,… please continue. We will still be here and going “round and round” in the A.M.,.. and the next day,.. and the day after that. 🙂


          • Chris
            And yes I know what you mean. The spring would only be able to push so much air. It wouldn’t be able to open the valve to supply the air at some point in time.

            But how do you know that it won’t supply enough air to push that pellet. How many pumps or piston movement from the spring and piston when it does reach that point.




                • GF1,

                  A valve, I think would store all of the air. It is small. Now, if you are talking a PCP on board tube, then yes. The pressure will be low at the start, then can build. But only to the point of the springs potential power. But then, what do you have? You have a multi-pump that uses spring power instead of pump power. You are still pumping,.. ok,.. cocking the gun, to create an air charge.

                  Plus, the pump format has the ability to go higher than the spring because it has the ability to go higher with added pump effort. You are not going to make that spring do any more than what it can do. Period.


                  • Chris
                    You keep talking equalization.

                    If that pump gun valve can store more air than the the volume of air the piston bore and stroke can move than it will take multiple pumps to fill it.

                    Then compressing the air comes into play next. That’s the next step past the equalization part.

                    At some point the piston and bore has to be able to add more air to the valve than what it has stored. That’s the compression part.

                    That’s when the volume of air that the piston and spring has to compress is greater than what the volume the valve can hold.

                    It’s more than just filling a chamber full of air from a given area of supply. Compressing the air in that chamber is the next part of the equation.


                    • GF1,

                      You are making my head hurt! 😉 I wish you and your family the best of Christmas and hope that you get some cool new stuff to tell us all about. Out’a here,…. Zzzzzzz. Ok,… munch first,.. and then Zzzzzzz. 🙂


                  • Chris
                    Here’s another thing to think about with the spring piston multi-pump.

                    The spring will compress a given amount.

                    But as more pressure is built the more the spring will compress at the end of the piston stroke.

                    So what happens to that compressed air that is setting there waiting to go somewhere.

                    At that point when the gun is fired that air would then flow into the valve.

                    Isn’t that how multi-pump guns work anyway?



              • Chris
                Next step.

                What happens if we increase bore and stroke of the piston?

                Then comes changing the spring rate.

                It can be accomplished.

                The question is how practical could it be. Maybe it might be better than the pump mechanism. Maybe not.


          • Chris USA,

            What about a break barrel multi pump that uses the whole barrel as a cocking arm for lots of leverage. It would reciprocate a fairly large diameter piston head back and forth as you break the barrel and reseat it over and over. Then it would lock into firing position and a striker would hit a valve releasing the air through a port inline with the breech of the gun like a springer. Don’t have all the messy details worked out – I did the hard part, you guys take over on the downhill leg. 😉


        • GF1, Chris USA, ½ step,

          I think you end up with a pumper that requires less number of strokes to achieve a level of power equal to an ordinary pumper. The effort to cock stays the same. The valving of the reservoir will determine the maximum pressure that can be achieved. Basically you are firing the air pressure generated by a Diana 27 (I randomly chose this because you can cock it easily) into a reservoir with the valving determining the maximum amount of air you can introduce into the pressure chamber before releasing it into the barrel.

          Siraniko



          • Siraniko,

            My design wouldn’t FIRE air into the reservoir, you just pump it in with the usual piston and check valve arrangement. The difference is that mine would not use a pump handle situated under a fixed barrel. Instead the barrel would break at the loading port like a springer giving enough extra leverage that, coupled with a larger diameter piston, you could store the same amount of air with fewer strokes or more air with the same effort as a conventional, handle-pumped, gun.



            • Halfstep
              Rereading your comment.

              I think that the firing of the air into the valve would be the way to go.

              Other wise you might as well just have a piston like a multi-pump has on your break barrel idea.

              You wouldn’t get any different pump up than what a multi-pump does. The firing the pump piston would be like supercharging the air into the valve. The acceleration from the spring would boost the air pressure.


  21. Merry Christmas to one and all! 🙂 Looking forward to hearing all about what cool airgun stuff that anybody may have received from “Santa” in the AM. Out’a here,……


    • Chris USA,

      I got a Legends MP40 with the aged stock and sling from my wife. She says I can’t get wrapped up in shooting it ’til we return from my daughter’s house later. She’s afraid I’ll make us late. (Never happen, right?) I think all the items on the list that I submitted to my daughter were airgun related, so maybe more good stuff to come !



      • Halfstep,

        Very nice! That thing ought to be real blast! I got some hot stock tips on a new bb manufacturer for you. That way when the wife say’s,…”You just ordered bb’s!!!!! Now you want to order MORE!!!!!????”,… and then you can say “The stock is up 10% in the last 6 months,…. it’s like I am getting paid to shoot!” 😉



      • GF1,

        Nothing direct. I am more of the gift card/cash/scroogish type. I did get a $50 Walmart card and have the 2240 Co2 pulled up now. I also got a $50 card from Home Depot and did order a 6-25 x? Monocular that can double as a microscope/field scope. Like 35. That should be good for seeing hard to see pellet holes at 100 when shooting at the usual 7-12. At least I hope anyways. Then a diamond paddle sharpener that folds up like a butterfly knife. Like 15. I have gotten pretty darn good using a diamond pen/stick style. I am no expert like BB, but I can get a good enough edge on my work knife and all of my kitchen knives. It takes getting a feel, but the results are nice. Get the blade under good light while working, and you can see the effect of every stroke.

        That is about it. Not sure on the 2240. $50 worth of sea food to make into a killer New England chowder is awful tempting too. Big shrimp, big scallops, good fish, clams, lobster?, etc., etc.. Yum, slurp, yum! 🙂


        • Chris
          I think you replied to Halfstep but put my name on your post.

          But get you that 2240. Then you can start moding up with a master breech and a Maximus barrel and a 1399 stock.

          Shoot it like that for a while on Co2. Then you can do a HPA conversion later.

          They really are nice easy to carry guns. And accurate. I think you would be happy with one.


          • GF1,

            Yes,.. I will probably go that route. At least I am starting $50 (out) of the hole,… ehh? 🙂

            As for the mis-post,… heck,… I do not even have a good excuse,.. yet,… if you get my “drift”. 😉

            I was replying to Halfstep, but had been reading all of the comments prior.


            • Chris
              Let me know if your interested.

              And you may want to save this link. Here is the steel breech you will need for the 2240. It has the exact correct securing screw locations. The Discovery and Maximus has one screw in the bolt area where the pellet loads in a different location. The Discovery or Maximus breech will work though.

              Here is the steel breech for .22 caliber.
              https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Crosman_22_Cal_Steel_Breech_Kit_Fits_2240_2250_2260_2289_1322_Air_Guns/4387

              And here is the one for .177 caliber. You may want to save the links for later on.
              https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Crosman_177_Cal_Steel_Breech_Kit_Fits_1377_1740_1760_PC77_Air_Guns/4386


              • GF1,

                Thanks, I saved both. I was looking at them earlier. I take it that the steel breech is a must? Stock = no dove tails? My initial thought was a CF(faux) stock and a barrel, to start. Not sure on the barrel without consulting HiveSeekers blogs again. I did see on the Crosman site, 2 different length breeches were offered on 1 model, but not the other. Both had dove tails, so I suppose the longer would be ideal for scoping. ((Is either of these the longer one?)) I have that pretty good CP point scope that came on the Maximus that I would almost 100% use.


                • Chris
                  Not sure what ones you looked at on the Crosman site. But the ones I just showed work fine for a scope. And yep that’s mostly why the steel breech instead of the plastic breech.

                  And from exsperiance the Discovery barrel has been the best for me velocity and accuracy wise. I have about 8 or so different length barrels and in both .177 and .22 caliber. And some are even Lothar Walther barrels. The long Discovery barrel has always proved best. Even on the 1322/77 pumpers I built.

                  Now if I was to build one it would have the Maximus barrel. Benji-Don just posted some info on his with a Maximus and said he was happy with the performance.

                  Do what you will but the long barrel is the way to go. Especially if your going to go to HPA. If you get time search the AirForce Talon SS, regular Talon, and Condor. If you notice they each have a certian legnth barrel. The Talon SS is 12″, the regular Talon is 18″ and the Condor is 24 inches.

                  Look at the velocity for a paticular caliber gun. You will notice velocity goes up as the barrel gets longer.

                  Anyway just say’n. You’ll get all figured out. I have faith in you. 😉


                  • GF1,

                    Just checked the Crosman site again and the 2300 (carbine) offers 2 length breeches and the 2400 (rifle) offers 1, which appears to the shorter of the 2. You can see the difference when you change what you select and the picture changes/ updates. What gun is that longer one off of? Plus, the fore end does not seem to be offered on the PA site and only the all black stock is,.. not the faux CF one. I would prefer the faux CF and the forend,… and the longer breech. (All) may only be custom shop items.


                  • GF1,

                    I did do some looking,… the std. breech has equal lengths to the breech fore and aft. It is pretty obvious that the ones you linked,.. and the longer one on the carbine on Crosman,.. and the breeches offered as parts from Crosman are all the longer version. The front half is longer.

                    So, the longer breech can be had from Crosman or PA as parts. The fore end and CF stock,… I do not know. I will have to check my saved and see if I have another Crosman custom parts site saved.

                    If all else fails,… hit up ol’ HiveSeeker.


                    • Chris
                      I have not seen the carbon fiber stock or fore grip on the PA site.

                      But yes u should do a search for 2240 parts on the web.

                      You wouldn’t believe what’s out there. The Crosman custom shop is like kids play compared to what’s out there.

                      And you wouldn’t believe the high-end stocks and forearm grips that are available. Some serious stuff out there if you dig deeper.


        • Chris,

          Your reply went to GF1 but I read it. I love clam chowder but I’ve only had it from a can. ( may have eaten it in a restaurant once) Sounds like yours has all the goodies in it.


      • Chris,

        Your reply went to GF1 but I read it. I love clam chowder but I’ve only had it from a can. ( may have eaten it in a restaurant once) Sounds like yours has all the goodies in it.


        • Halfstep,

          Yea, I do like to cook and cook well. New England chowder is pretty easy. I would tell ya’,… but there is enough on-line to get the basic concepts down. Low, slow, pre-cook some stuff, toss in the sea food at the end, simmer, serve. Simple canned clams (only) work just fine. Oh yea,.. a bit of good ol’ butter to add to the milk/cream base. That puts it over the top. You will never look at another can again. 😉


  22. Regarding bent skirts and accuracy,

    The VarmintAir site is very useful and provides fairly good evidence that bent skirts dose not have a large effect on accuracy, at least with the 18 grain JSBs.

    He also reports significant effect on accuracy from head size variation but I did not find actual evidence as in targets for verification. He did debunk the idea that buying pellets by head size is legit. The tins he received sold to be head size specific were all over the map.

    The best evidence I’ve found so far on the effect of head size is this video below by Ted’s holdover. The high speed camera evidence is impressive. You see spiralling begin when head size increases a threshold.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRN1Am8RBgs

    I also see there are dies available to resize pellets, but have not seen evidence of improved accuracy with this method yet.

    The more I look at this subject and compare the precision of bullet vs pellet manufacture, the more it seems the pellet is a quandary in the quest for accuracy.

    Hope everyone is having a nice Christmas.


    • Idaho,

      Thank you for that. Interesting stuff ehh? 😉 Like I said before, weighing and head sorting and then shooting all the same is probably enough. But can I do well enough for any differences to show up? The spiraling pellets were cool to see. I have seen that as well from time to time. Seeing pellets flying is not always easy and I think has a lot to do with ambient light at the time.

      For someone that does not head sort, re-sizing makes sense. But, then are they now the same, or still a wee bit different? #2 I think.

      Thanks again and please keep us informed as you find stuff on the topic.


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