Crosman MAR 177: Part 1

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Crosman MAR
The MAR177 from Crosman.

History of airguns

This report covers:

Tested before
From 2012
The AR system
The lower
National Match lower
Stopping here
Buying the MAR
The purpose of the MAR
What is the MAR177?
Where did it come from?
What about THIS one?|
Discussion
Summary

Today is the big day and now you know. This report will be about the Crosman MAR177. As I told reader Brent on Wednesday, this gun is no longer being made, yet I believe the one I am testing is brand new. By sheer luck as I was researching another article I stumbled across this New in the Box MAR177. Apparently it has never been out of the box, because the accessories are still factory wrapped.

Tested before

I tested the MAR177 extensively in 2012, right as it hit the market. I was asked to write a feature about it for Shotgun News. To test it I had to build an AR-15 lower, because the MAR177 isn’t a complete airgun. It’s just the upper to an AR-15 or M16 lower. Let’s look at that history first.

From 2012

The MAR177 is a target precharged pneumatic upper that fits on any standard National Match AR lower (I’ll cover that in a moment) and turns the U.S. M16 service rifle or its civilian-legal semiautomatic counterpart AR-15 into a target air rifle. Those airgunners who own AR rifles can buy the MAR177 right now and have a target PCP that’s ready to go. This report will be a thorough test of that rifle. One caveat — some AR-15s made by Colt have larger pins for the upper/lower connection and special steps must be taken for them.

I didn’t own an AR-type rifle at the time. From my time in the Army I had grown to distrust the reliability and accuracy of the platform. That had changed by 2012, but being a hater I wasn’t aware of it. None of my shooting friends owned one, either. So, I was at a disadvantage when I was asked to report on this unique new air gun.

There have been other air rifles before now that have resembled the AR-15/M16. Crosman just introduced their M4-177 multi-pump rifle that I tested for you in 2011, and back in the 1990s they made the much simpler A.I.R. 17 — another multi-pump that was crude but did follow the AR styling. So, the story is not that an AR airgun has been made. The story is that this one is a precision target rifle and could rival some 10-meter rifles.

The AR system

Before I continue, everybody needs to be on the same page. The AR system that the Crosman MAR (modular adaptive rifle) belongs to is comprised of two principal subassemblies — the upper receiver and the lower receiver. The upper receiver contains the barrel, gas system, bolt, sights and operational hardware for the rifle. The Crosman MAR177 is an upper. I will talk a lot about the upper throughout the rest of this report, but let’s look at the lower receiver for a moment.

The lower


The lower, as it’s called, is a frame that contains the operational parts, pins and springs for the trigger, selector and safety, magazine catch, as well as the buttstock and buffer assembly. It’s considered by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATF&E) to be a firearm. It’s the part that has the serial number. You can buy and sell uppers almost anywhere in the U.S. without paperwork, but each lower is classified as a firearm. The fact that this is a modular system with many different uppers — all on one lower — allows you to own many different rifles of different calibers, all under one registration.

But I didn’t own an AR — so I didn’t have a lower receiver. And the MAR177 was never sold as a complete rifle. Crosman had plans to build it that way at some time in the future, but those plans never materialized. I needed to get a lower.

At first, I looked around for just a complete lower receiver to buy used, and they do exist, but as I searched I found that the people who have them don’t always know exactly what they have. For example, the upper and lower attach via two cross pins, and there have been different sizes of pins over the years. Colt made pins that were larger than those made by other manufacturers, so you might get a Colt lower that doesn’t fit the MAR upper. There are bushings to reduce the sizes of the holes in the lower; but since I was doing this from scratch, I didn’t want to begin with a workaround.

I located a brand new Rock River Arms lower receiver that was stripped of all parts. It was just the receiver shell by itself. But there are parts kits to build up such receivers, so I went online and ordered a National Match lower parts kit and an A2 buttstock assembly from Rock River. I would build the receiver myself, and when finished, I would have a complete Rock River lower — not a bad thing to have. Rock River is a good name — one of many you will find if you look. And there are also a few names to avoid — just as there are with airguns.

Rock River lower receiver
A bare Rock River National Match AR-15 lower receiver.

When I placed the order, though, I failed to notice the fine print at the bottom of the Rock River webpage that said some of the parts were on indefinite backorder. They didn’t specify which parts those were from the hundreds of choices on the page, but sure enough it turned out to be the entire parts kit I needed for this report. That’s because Rock River is currently experiencing a 60 to 90-day backorder status on their whole rifles, and they certainly aren’t going to sell their parts faster than they can build entire rifles to sell. It makes perfect sense, but only when you know it. And I only found out when I didn’t get the parts I ordered. So, I had a stripped receiver without the parts to complete it.

[Editor’s note: This was the height of Barrack Obama’s first term, and firearms were flying off the shelves — particularly the AR-15 platform!]

Once I realized my backorder status, I placed a call to Rock River to see what the expected delivery date would be, and that’s when I learned everything I have just shared with you. I then explained my short publishing deadline to them (a special feature article in the July color issue of Shotgun News) and they bent over backwards to fix the problem — but don’t expect them to do the same for everyone. If you want to build a lower receiver, you had best first pin down a source for parts before doing anything else. So, this test is made possible through the good graces of Rock River Arms, who, before last Wednesday, had never heard of Tom Gaylord.

National Match lower


Now that you know what a lower receiver is, what’s so special about a National Match lower? Simply put, it’s a lower that meets the specifications for the U.S. Service Rifle National Matches held at Camp Perry, Ohio, every year. One of the most important aspects of this specification is the trigger. Standard AR rifles come with single-stage triggers that are barely adequate at their best. But the National Match specification allows for a two-stage trigger that breaks cleanly with no less than 4.5 lbs. of force. There’s a host of additional information available for National Match triggers; but for our discussion, this is sufficient.

I was hardly going to test the MAR177 — a target rifle — with anything less than a good trigger. I say “good” advisedly; because to someone used to a nice match airgun trigger or even a Rekord sporting trigger, these AR triggers are fairly crude — even those that are National Match. But in the sport they’ll be used, the National Match triggers are as good as you’re allowed to have. Testing the new air rifle upper with a stock single-stage trigger would be a crime.

Stopping here

The old blog goes on and on about me building the lower I needed to test the MAR177. It is very interesting stuff, but I have given you a link to Part 6 of that report and there you will find links to the five earlier parts. I am going to now skip ahead so I can talk about the subject airgun.

Buying the MAR

I found this airgun on Ebay, and from the photos it looked like it had never been used. As I unpack it and examine it, I will comment on that if necessary, but at this point I believe this is a new-old-stock MAR. I opened the box one time upon delivery a few weeks ago and haven’t touched it since. Today I photographed it as I opened the box for only the second time. I want all of you to see this as I am seeing it.

Crosman MAR box
The MAR box as I received it. It looks identical to the box I received in 2012 — and yes, I can still remember it.

Crosman MAR box open
The box opened. I am seeing this for the first time with you, because the packing bubbles that were inside have now been removed.

Crosman MAR accessories
The accessory package contains the manual, the false magazine insert for the MAR (for proper balance and hand placement when firing) — still in its sealed factory foam wrap — the 10-shot circular magazine (a Marauder mag) that fits into the receiver, an Allen wrench to depressurize the reservoir, a tube of Crosman Silicone Chamber Oil that has been opened and various pieces of Crosman literature, including instructions for loading the Benjamin Marauder rotary magazine.

Crosman MAR accessories out
All the accessories.

The purpose of the MAR

The MAR was developed to allow AR-15 and M16 shooters to train with pellets that are both cheaper and safer than .223 Remington/5.56mm ammunition. We have seen military trainers like this before — most notably the Hammerli Trainer insert for the Swiss K31 military rifle. Like the MAR that was also not a complete airgun, but required the service rifle to operate. The theory was a soldier would be able to train with his own service rifle shooting inexpensive BBs and close range. That training was safer, quieter and much less expensive, plus it did not require a formal rifle range.

K31 rifle
Swiss K31 military rifle.

Hammerli trainer
Hammerli trainer insert for the Swiss K31 rifle.

Crosman MAR 177 complete
This is my actual AR-15 with the MAR177 I tested in 2012.

There is or was a set of rules in the CMP rulebook for an AR-15 clone airgun. As far as I can tell, no specific match was ever run for the MAR177.

What is the MAR177?

You already know that it’s a trainer for the AR-15/M16 platform, but what is it? It is a 10-shot repeating .177-caliber precharged pneumatic target rifle. The box says “High-Powered Simulation AR Competition PCP Rifle.” It certainly is not high-powered, as the box also says the expected velocity is 600 f.p.s. That is a target rifle velocity. Perhaps someone meant the MAR is a simulation FOR a high-powered rifle, but the wording seems vague.

Crosman MAR 177 box detail
Regardless of what the box says, the MAR177 is not high-powered.

Though it is mounted on an AR lower and is a repeater, it is not semiautomatic. It must be cocked for each shot by pulling back what would be the charging handle on an AR, but on the MAR is the bolt handle. The rotary mag is spring-loaded, so when the bolt is retracted, the mag advances to the next pellet. Pushing the bolt home pushes a pellet out of the mag and into the breech of the barrel.

This is no lightweight flimsy add-on. The MAR177 I’m testing weighs bang-on 7 lbs. and will gain several more pounds when the lower is attached. This isn’t some kid’s plastic AR truck gun. It’s a National Match stand-in that does the job.

Where did it come from?

The rifle that served as the basis for the MAR177 was developed by Scott Pilkington, the man who used to support the American Olympic airgun shooting team. He put his rifles together with real AR components, and added his own custom parts to interface to them. He took that idea and gun to the Crosman Corporation and sold them the idea and plans, and they developed it into the MAR177.

The MAR was a top-end air rifle, or the greater part of one. The barrel was from Lothar Walther and all the components were solid and well-made. That quality drove the retail price to $600 in 2012. As I said it was a time when ARs were in great demand, but apparently a top-flight air rifle upper that cost twice what a lower-end firearm upper cost in the day was too much for the market to bear.

The rifle is not regulated, but my tests that were conducted in 2012 revealed a very consistent valve. Naturally I will test this one for you as well.

Ed Schultz who worked on the MAR told me it was always his hope to make it a semiautomatic rifle, but the gun didn’t remain in production long enough for that. From the research I have conducted it seems likely that between 500 and 1,000 MARs were produced between 2012 and 2015/16 when production apparently ended.

What about THIS one?

I took the MAR out of the box for the first time today, while writing this report. I think that is the first time it’s been out of the box since it was built. The clear plastic sheet was still on the face of the pressure gauge on the bottom of the rifle — more evidence of a NIB gun.

Crosman MAR 177 gauge
The clear plastic film was still on the face of the gauge from the factory.

I filled the gun to 3,000 psi four hours ago and the onboard gauge says it is holding. I filled the male fill nipple with Crosman Silicone Chamber oil prior to filling with air, so the oil would be blown in and get on all internal seals. I will keep an eye on the gauge as time passes.

Discussion

There is so much more to report that there will be more description stuff in Part 2 and perhaps in the other parts as we go. Now that I have an AR-15 of my own, I think this guy is home to stay. But there is more.

This is a great idea that died for many reasons, but the entire idea doesn’t have to go away. What if an AR-15 upper could be made that would be more like the Hammerli trainer insert for the K31? It would be a BB gun — not an pellet rifle. No expensive Lothar Walther barrel, but an accurate BB barrel like the one on the Daisy 499. The steel BB has been refined to the point that it is highly accurate over short distances. And there are tens of millions of AR-15s, M16 and clones in the world that could use such an airgun.

I would have bought that MAR I tested in 2012 if I could have afforded it, but my lengthy stay in 2010 in 4 hospitals left Edith and me burdened with a huge debt. So, when this one recently became available I did what I had to do, to acquire it. 

Summary

This may be one of the most important blogs I have ever written. Not only is the MAR177 one of the most important airguns Crosman ever made, the concept is many orders of magnitude greater. Only time will tell how far this may go!

124 thoughts on “Crosman MAR 177: Part 1

  1. Lucky you.
    I always wanted one, at the time, but not at the price of a complete AR-15.
    I did get a chance to shoot one, but to me, the 5 lb milspec trigger in the owners lower took it out of the “target” category.

    Especially offhand at 10 meters.

    My Daisy 853 with the pilkington trigger mod, shot circles around it.

    On the BB caliber upper subject.
    I wonder how far the hammer of an AR platform would slap a BB?
    A modern day catapult gun.

    There is quite a bit of force in the hammer fall, and with the mass and speed of the hammer compared to the weight of a BB sized projectile, it would be the simplest design.

    Hmm.. I may have to put a .177 inside diameter brass tube down the barrel of my AR to rest on the bolt face, roll a BB down the barrel TO REST ON THE FIRING PIN HOLE. And give it a go…
    Proof of concept…

    Although a concave or flat faced firing pin would be better than the standard one already in the rifle.

    Ian.


  2. B.B.,

    Looking over the Crosman catalog there seems to be enough parts available for them to remake this. Since they seem to have mastered making their own accurate barrels the base model would be made using their own barrels with the LW barrels offered as Custom Shop specials. Part of the added cost was probably the balancing of the valve. They could probably use minimally balanced valves with regulation as an option.

    Seems to be an opportunity waiting.

    Siraniko


  3. BB,

    Given the overall scope of what you describe, I can see why you are excited.

    I got to handle one of these, (complete build), when I went into a small local gun shop to see what they had in the way of AR parts when I was building my .25 M-rod with RAI stock. A customer had the shop owner try to sell it. I was not interested at the time, but that was the only air gun they had. I do not recall even asking the price.

    (as a side, they were running a 10 meter PCP range in the rear. 4 lanes. The owner was providing the space for some local people. I did get to handle some of the pistols, which was my first time handling one)

    Looking forwards to more,………… Chris


  4. BB,

    I remember when you did the previous test of this, along with your build up and test of an AR. I am still not interested in the Mattelomatic, but I am still interested in this. Nice find.

    You have developed your talent for finding these “priceless gems” to a most fine art. You poo poo your abilities and say others can do such and you are right. However, you have done so for many years and have refined your “scrounging” abilities to a very high level.

    Me? I just wait until you get tired of them and I buy them from you. 😉 I also get to know the history and nuances of that particular airgun before I get it. 🙂

    In “Discussion”:

    And there are tens of millions of AR-15s, M16 and clones in the word (world) that could use such an airgun.

    Siraniko must be worn to a frazzle. Hang in there my good man!


  5. BB,

    Speaking of Ed Schulz, what is he doing at TCFKAC these days. I would assume he is in engineering. In what role? Are they going to allow him to innovate?





          • GF1,

            Those are Turkish air rifles. Velocity Outdoors that owns Crosman is importing those, like the Diana Group is importing and rebranding the SPA airguns from China and Air Venturi is importing and rebranding the Nova Vista air rifles from China also. Airforce has been importing the Cometa line for some time.

            As far as I know, the semi Marauder is the only new thing they have going and it isn’t yet. The supply of the Maximus has dried up. You would be hard pressed to find one anywhere. The Fortitude must have been more popular than they anticipated. That can be an issue when you have products utilizing common parts.

            It certainly seems more popular than there multi-shot sproinger. Speaking of multi-shot sproinger, there is none on their site. I think they gave up on it.


            • RR
              I would buy one of the Turkish pcp’s from Crosman over one of their China nitro piston guns anyday.

              The Turkish guns as your calling them are actually pretty good looking guns. How they perform is another story.

              And I do hope Crosman gets on the ball with the semi auto Marauder. Looking forward to that gun coming out. I hope it performs too. I want one.


              • GF1,

                The truth is the Turkish companies have learned that the US market pays attention to quality more than most think. That is reflected in the price. We will see how they do whenever they get here.

                I myself am not sold on Chinese stuff, no matter what the quality.


  6. B.B.

    I have always thought that PCP’s lend themselves to a modular platform. I have even mentioned this a few times here. I never thought however, that the AR-15 platform would be the basis for this. 4.5 lbs “match trigger” is an oxymoron…
    Have a nice weekend all,

    -Y


    • Yogi,

      Yes, the National Match AR-15 trigger certainly is an oxymoron! 45Bravo mentioned how horrible the one he tried was, and it might not have been the National Match trigger. I sold mine at a gun show a couple years ago, knowing that I would never reinstall it in my lower.

      B.B.


      • BB,

        I never tried it or even pulled the trigger. At the time, it did not interest me. In hindsight now,… I should have tried it just for the experience (assuming it was aired up and ammo was available). I had just got the .25 M-rod at the time.

        Chris


      • The one I shot was a completely milspec trigger that had a “trigger job” done by a local gunsmith.
        It was not a match gun..

        While I love the concept of the MAR 177, I just don’t see it competing (both price wise, and trigger wise) with much less expensive airguns.

        In my OPINION, the upper may have the accuracy , the combination of ergonomics of the AR platform, and the trigger pull, just don’t not lend itself to even informal 10meter level accuracy.

        If you can’t find an off the shelf gun that suits your fancy.

        For a lot less money, you could assemble a co2, carbine or pcp both with a walther barrel, an AR butt stock adapter, and a Marauder pistol trigger assembly, that would have a much better trigger, and very good accuracy for the price paid.

        I built a dedicated .22LR upper for my AR15, but invariably, when I went to go to the range, the rifle had the upper on it I didn’t want to shoot that day.

        So I ended up building a dedicated lower for the .22LR. (no buffer and spring) I tend to shoot the .22LR much more than the 5.56 rifle, the rifle is very accurate from the bench, but offhand, not so good, Because the trigger sucked.

        Consequently, in search for a better (lighter) trigger to aid accuracy, over the years, I tried several.
        Some I bought, some were loaned by friends to see if I liked them before I spent $280 on a trigger.
        Timney
        Geissele
        CMC
        Triggertech
        ATC
        JMT

        Some were good, some worse, but none of them could compare to the trigger on a Marauder, or an Air Arms S200.

        Autoloading firearms have to have a heavier trigger than airguns, strictly to be safe during the firing and cocking cycle.

        As a non recoiling airgun you don’t HAVE to have that heavy of a trigger.

        Ian


  7. I wonder, how many of the shooters that read the blog have ever shot a Service Rifle match?
    I did shoot them while I was in the Army Reserve, using Uncle Sam’s National Match M14 (plus the rest of the gear). A 4 1/2 pound NM trigger can be surprisingly light (look at some of BB’s references as to how light some triggers ‘feel’ before a trigger scale is applied). I had the benefit of a well-prepared rifle, as opposed to rack grade, but the people that I competed with (and against) shot some truly amazing scores.
    If you have the chance, try a Geissele NM trigger or a ‘Wisconsin’ NM trigger, you might be truly surprised at how good they are.
    One question for BB, that may have been covered before (but I can’t find): when you get a match airgun (or firearm) that has an included test target, how was that target generated? Is there someone at the factory doing test-fires, or are the guns clamped in a rest?
    Thanks for your continued blog of many of the things that I only wish that I could shoot (or even afford).

    Bill


    • Billj,

      The target airguns used to be hand-held. Robert Beeman confirmed that to me. But they are now probably machine-rested. When I tested the Edge for AirForce I was able to shoot groups as small hand-held (and resting on a bag) as we got with the rifle in a padded vice. But the times are a-changin’.

      B.B.


    • Billj,

      Yes, those definitely were the “good old days”, were they not?

      Which USAR team did you belong to and what years did you participate? We may have crossed paths at some point in time.

      I shot on the 99th ARCOM and First Army Reserve Team for a few years in the early eighties, never shot beyond 600 yards though (with the M14). Did you ever shoot “rattle battle”?

      Bugbuster


      • Bugbuster,
        I shot with the 4th Army 88th ARCOM Team, ’86-’90. I didn’t start competitive shooting until I went into the Reserves, which was 10+ years after leaving active duty (Vietnam era, just spent in Germany).
        Yes I did have the opportunity to shoot “rattle battle” and found it interesting, at the very least. As I was told by one of my friends beforehand “By the time you get to the last stage, you feel like you ought to be ready to fix bayonets and charge!”
        My experience with the AR platform was limited to use when in uniform and then some civilian range work. But I have had the chance to work with a couple of Iraq & Afghanistan vets who have had the chance to use the rifle in battlefield conditions. The two people that come to mind are both ‘gun guys’ and one likes either his SIG platform or his AK and the other has an AR with a piston gas system. For how I use it, the stock system is fine with me.
        I do have an AR platform, and will probably shoot a couple of Service Rifle matches this year. But with the rule changes, I am torn between shooting aperture or telescopic sights (old eyes, but it still seems like cheating).
        Bill



  8. B.B.
    This is a collectible thing. AR15/16 are close quarter combat weapons now.
    Spray and pray baby. You want to shoot targets? How about a PSG1. At least
    my Synergis recoils.
    Have fun with it.
    Rob


    • Rob,

      I think, i could be wrong on this, but they still shoot National Match High Power Service Rifle with M-16 (not PSG1) single shot and not spray and pray Style.

      shootski


      • shootski,

        Yes, they still have Service Rifle matches and use the M16/AR15, for the most competitive of the bunch.
        I never would have thought that I would see a ‘mouse gun’ shoot respectable scores at the 600 yard line, but they regularly beat the M14 and the M1 Garand platform. Go figure.

        Bill


        • Billj,

          Apologies! I was pulling Rob’s and RR’s legs. I know how they feel about Stoners guns! Garand is a good rifle. M-14 was a bad rifle unless highly modified by great armourers. I carried one of those with colapsible stock and way too short of a barrel in a thigh scabbard for a few years until i got a better built M-16 variant and never looked back.
          I own a AR or three now and they shoot great out to ranges most of my fellow Nam Vets still can’t believe. But it took some fixing by manufacturers over what Colt turned out early on and still takes running them wet or with really expensive dry lube unless you just single load target shoot.

          shootski


          • Shootski,

            Now for you. 😉

            “…and still takes running them wet or with really expensive dry lube unless you just single load target shoot.”

            I do not care for the Mattelomatic because of issues like this. The tolerances are way too tight. We are talking about a battle weapon. This thing has to be sparkly clean to operate properly and yet they still run the gas exhaust into the action to operate the thing.

            A forward assist?! What?! Oh, that is for when the action gets so gunked up from the gas that the bolt no longer closes properly.

            Don’t even think about using this thing in hand to hand combat.

            When I was in the service, I did see a version of it I liked. The Seals carried one that the first thing they did was pull off the butt stock and throw it away. On the other end of the action they had a round six inch grip. Next was the sight/gas port triangle and then a two inch flash suppressor. They fastened a 3/4″ web strap to the buffer tube and the front sight and suspended it from their neck so it hung at their chest. I thought it made a dandy submachinegun. They even had a version with a chopped down M203. Nice.

            As for pulling my leg, I don’t mind as long as I get to pull back. 😉



              • Shootski,

                Not likely. I have always been the kind of guy who thought why use thirty rounds when one will do.

                To be totally honest I had at one point considered a Mattelomatic pistol with the tappet action, but what would I do with it? I’ll just play with my airguns.


          • Shootski,
            I just watched a youtube, so i don’t know anything, but, Stoners belt fed/box fed design seems
            to be an exceptionably controlable and effective tool 😉 As for the bean counter cartridge,
            you know the one. Good for prarie dogs.
            R


    • Rob,

      PSG1? Really? Don’t get me wrong, it is better than a Mattelomatic…

      You need to slow down even more. This would work fine in an urban environment, but when you want to really reach out there you need an old reliable bolt action. As a teenager I would shoot groundhogs in the head at 500 yards using my father’s accurized Remington 700 Varmint Special chambered in .25-06. A militarized version of this rifle chambered in 7.62mm NATO (.308 Winchester for normal folk) has been in use as a sniper rifle longer than the legendary Mattelomatic.


      • I totaly agree. Outrageous money for that German sheet steel thing.
        It seems like the Military has adopted the .338 lapua cartridge too.
        A return to a more robust fighting round than the 5.56. or .308. Body armour is
        better and more common now. The K31 and the Diana BB trainer seem about
        perfect. Now if I could just afford a few cases of some G11 ammo, and some smart shot
        for the insert.
        Rob


        • Rob,

          The 7.62 NATO is still in use as a sniper round. They also use the .50 BMG. It depends on environment it will be used in and “the job”. Yes, the .338 Lapua is “the cartridge” right now, but it only has a real advantage under certain circumstances.



  9. B.B.
    If Crosman had just included a non mil-spec lower assmbly in the price, something made of plastic?
    It might still be in the product line up in the future?
    Rob



      • Rob
        What was cool about the MAR though was if you already had a AR you could get the MAR and plop it right in and do some at home shooting without worry of the high velocity cartridge and noise. Plus other reasons.

        And yep I do believe if Crosman had the option of a non mil spec lower they would of had a better situation.


      • 1stblue,

        So you buy the SIG PB and the SIG air rifle!
        If you buy a AR15 NM lower kit, if it was still for sale for 6Gs, the Crosman MAR177 how much $$$ do you have for power and trigger modifications left over compared to the SIG two gun solution?

        shootski


        • I bet a new Sig carbine is expensive too.
          I just think it’s pretentious to believe the MAR upper
          will help with you weapons handling skills or for shooting
          a .223 round to six hundred yards. Don’t forget, I also need to know how to tune my upper to get an excellent shot spread. I would leave my N.M. rifle alone, and get a decent springer for target practice.
          Or, just get the Steyer bullpup. It’s allot less money than the colectible PSG1.
          The range is hot!
          Best, Rob



  10. BB
    Also the muzzle is different. And the way the front sling mount is attached to the gun and the front sight.

    Looking closer the muzzle stripper is turned another way is what is different there. But the sling mount and front sight is definitely different.


    • GF1,

      I see that. Well, the top pic is from Crosman to Pyramyd Air for their site. The air stripper is just turned a different way that the bottom one. They are the same.

      The front sights are identical — just lit differently.

      The sling swivels are identical, but taken from different angles.

      B.B.


      • B.B.

        Looks to me like there are some differences, the 2020 picture (open in a new tab) https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2020/04/crosman-mar-177-part-1/ shows the swivel connected to the forearm while the 2012 picture shows the swivel as a wraparound of the air tube and possibly the barrel (open in a new tab so you can swith back and forth to see the difference) https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2012/05/crosman-mar177-test-report-part-6/ don’t know just thought I would show this.

        Also it looks like the forearm is cutout in the 2012 picture and showing more of the air tube and barrel.

        Mike


      • B.B.,

        There is a definite difference seen in your file photo for the Crosman MAR .177 and what you show when you opened the box. Poring through the blog you got the file photo from the PyramydAir catalog which shows a different forearm and swivel placement compared to what is actually in the box even in the 2012 article. This is the source of the differences seen because they refer to this picture instead of the subsequent images. It must have been taken from the earlier prototype. Included is my evidence. Top Picture is the image still shown on the PyramydAir website. Middle is the 2012 unit, Bottom is the 2020 unit.

        Siraniko


  11. Been trying to get in all day on Goggle but it kept throwing me out. I have to say that I’m disappointed, Tom. I thought that this was going to be the Forgotten Weapons blog with a prototype of a Crossman Maverick or a 12 fpe Giss springer. I’ve seen too many mediocre shooters that thought that the AR-15 would make them a hot shooter-not. I suggested as much to a shooting instructor one time, which made him mad so to prove me wrong, he put his first two shots into the ground in rapidfire before getting on the target. I’d much rather put the money into a vintage 10m rifle. Like they say, “You can please some of the people some of the time…”


    • Brent,

      “I suggested as much to a shooting instructor one time, which made him mad so to prove me wrong, he put his first two shots into the ground in rapidfire before getting on the target.”

      I must be MISS understanding the point your trying to make. Did you find a new instructor or not ;^)
      You mean you can’t buy your way into being a great shooter? Gear and accessories are the answer! B.B. is all about that…no?
      Okay! This Quarentine and Social Isolation stuff is finally driving me over the edge. I’m going to run outside without my mask on!

      shootski


      • Nah, it was just at a gun range. I made the comment that I thought it was best to start new shooters with a single shot, which made him mad so he wanted to show me wrong. From what I’ve seen, a lot of AR shooters should go back to the single shots until they can prove that they can shoot a decent group.



      • R.R.,

        No argument with what you say.
        When you study the shoot away rates for each battlefield casualty (not even kill) the numbers are staggering; a Logisticians nightmare! It has leveled off a little in our recent actions but in WWI, WW2, Korea, and ‘Nam the growth caused by more rounds per minute weapons is astronomical. The typical soldier shoots for effect…we might as well make ever third or fourth a real bullet and the rest all blanks or AirSoft bb. Not hardly the one shot one kill of the real Sniper.

        shootski


      • It’s just that I thought it was going to be something totally new instead of a blog you’ve done before. I would rather you pulled out something like that . 22 PCP that you shot your best groups ever with. No worries!


  12. B.B.
    If Crosman would deep six the PCP part of the concept, and maybe oneup the Hammerli design with a pellet barrel,
    that would all fit in the rifle bag with the Armalite/M16/M4 etc. KISS?
    Rob



    • Will need the Crosman bolt too, that works with the c02 magazine.
      I dont own Mr. Stoners design, so I may be dreaming, but target shooting in the barracks
      is encouraged…
      Rob


  13. B.B.,

    I think Ed, if he is in the right position, needs to look at the new rifle(s) concept the US is looking at and see if he can get an air powered trainer system going for it. It would seem the only place enough $$$$$ and market exists to do something like the MAR177 a piece of very high quality build airgun.
    The AR platform is 50 years old, regardless of what many think/believe of it, it has served as our Service Rifle for more years than ANY OTHER! I hope we never try for an all purpose rifle like the M14 on our next try for an infantry weapon. We shall see and relatively soon.

    shootski



    • Shootski,

      It is all my fault. My beer consumption has gone up since Covid. Also, I shoot my airguns a lot and I “hear” there is a shortage of lead to make my pellets. Idea??????

      Dear Mr. VP Pence,

      I respectfully request $1,000,000 to further study this lead shortage problem. If you are so inclined to award such funds,….. I will temporarily suspend use of the prior $3,000,000 of funds that the (former) administration saw fit to fund my rare and endangered earth worm study. Conclusion thus far have indicated that they are in fact earth worms and nothing else.

      Sincerely,……. Chris USA



    • Shootski
      All but one of my Co2 guns is converted to HPA. It’s a revolver but I have the set up already to tether it to a 13 cubic regulated hpa bottle.

      So I’m all good if there’s a Co2 shortage. With air guns anyway. And I imagine if a person really wanted to bad enough they could figure out how to convert those other things to hpa.


  14. Chris USA,

    GO AHEAD! Make fun of my PSA for CO2 powerplant shooters…this sort of shortage thing is one of the reasons Crosman built the MAR177. Back six or seven years ago you couldn’t find .223/5.56x45NATO to save your soul from the devil so a pellet upper could keep you shooting at least.
    So…buy those SSP, MSP, PCP, and yes Springers now!
    Chris is going to use up all of the Govm’nts and you won’t be getting no CO2 or Airgunner’s bailout!

    You have been ALERTED!

    shootski


    • Shootski,

      I have a 40 pack of the small cartridges. In another week,… they will be worth at least $10 each! 😉

      On the earth worm study,… at the time,.. I could not decide on research for rare earth worms (or) going for the “3 horned horny toad” research (not to be confused with the more common 1 horned, 2 horned and 4 horned horny toad varietals).

      I did put in a call to former VP Biden earlier to see if he could “smooth the way” on lead research funding,…. but quite honestly,… could not make heads or tails of what he was saying.

      Chris




    • Oh please. The fat orange dude with a jet is pointing a finger at the nice lady in S.F who has a view
      of the Pacific ocean. As far as we know, neither one of them pays any taxes.
      I wish Crosman would make the c02 powerlets smell like WD40, and not the waste gas from a fracking facility,but I put up with it, because its an unrealistic expectation to do otherwise.
      I hope y’all arn’t hoarding all the c02, I’m am running low it seems.
      Best
      R


      • R,

        I understand most of the CO2 these days comes from the production of Ethanol (Corn fuel additive) and they are hurting just as bad as the gasoline refiners with gasoline powered driving down by well over 60%.

        As far as the Left Coast “Nice” (in the Southern sense) Lady or the Orange skin guy none of them are making much that helps me and mine live better lives!

        Prepare for the worst pray you get to experience the best.

        Salud,

        shootski


  15. Chris USA, Thedavemyster, Gunfun1

    From research the arrow shafts have an internal diameter of 6.2mm which means the tube of the AJ should have an OD of about 6mm. Depending on the thickness of the tube that means the ID should be somewhere between 5mm to 4mm. A steel BB might just fit with just tissue paper as a wadding.

    Chris can you kindly guide me as to where you found the basis for calculations for arrow weights and how to balance an accurate arrow? I’m thinking of exploring the concept locally someday.

    Siraniko


  16. BB
    Remember the first question you should ask yourself before purchasing a gun?

    Am I alone here? I did not get my AR15 to go target shooting unless you consider multiple 6′ tall armed people intent on killing you targets. And at that time I really won’t care if I hit the third button down from the neck. One of the other 99 rounds left, shot in that direction may. And I sure will not be shooting anyone too far away to communicate with, unless they fire first.
    The AR performs well in assault conditions no mater which direction the assault is heading and it is capable of accepting lots of accessories to help in less than perfect conditions, like the dark !

    I was all for getting this upper until I found out it was an expensive low powered bolt action unit. Not really a big help for AR practice. There are lots of other fine ‘complete’ air rifles for target shooting.
    Now a drop in unit like a .22 conversion kit in semiauto at a substantial price drop may be more attractive but the latest from Sig and others has that covered already with ‘complete’ rifles.

    Until that doomsday like event happens I am just fine with “Informal” target shooting and plinking with a .22 cal conversion kit. And that has even taken back seat to todays airguns. And that spray and pray thing is no real problem when you consider yourself low on ammo when you only have a thousand rounds left.
    Bob M


    • Bob M,

      I’m with you on your basic position on wanting a purpose for every tool purchased. I think if Ed were to go for something similar the semiautomatic would be required at a minimum given the competition and at least a short burst capability if not full automatic. The technology to build a conformal VHPA CF Reservoir is out there to make it possible.

      shootski


    • Bob
      This is why I wanted one.

      I could still shoot the AR in the back yard if I wanted. It wouldn’t be like the firearm. But I could at least still shoot it and maybe still practice the hold.

      I myself would set up some targets at different distances and practice aim points.

      But as it goes I’m a big fan of semi auto shooting.

      Just a dream here. But could you imagine a semi auto Marauder dressed like a MAR 77 and it in a AR stock. Of course not the same as shooting a .22 rimfire or the centerfire rounds. But I could have fun with it.


      • GF1
        When the semi auto Marauder comes out I will definitely be looking to install it in my Armada or RAI stocks. Only seems right !
        It has been stated that it may be the regulated version and I’m not sure of the differences yet. Now a semiauto Armada out of the box would come very close to my desirable airgun. A select fire version would end my search.
        A Hatsan Blitz or LCS SK-19 may be the only choices but they look like unrefined prototypes. I don’t want a big bottle for sustained shooting of multiple mags, just the opportunity to let go with a few rounds occasionally in a short burst.


  17. B.B.
    Sorry for HighJacking this topic…
    What has happened to Part 3 article of the Webley Hurricane ? I can’t see it showing as available to access.
    The only recent Posting I can see available is Part 4 dated April 10, 2020. I have bookmarked Part 1 and Part 2.
    Thank you.


  18. GF1,

    The truth is the Turkish companies have learned that the US market pays attention to quality more than most think. That is reflected in the price. We will see how they do whenever they get here.

    I myself am not sold on Chinese stuff, no matter what the quality.


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