Winchester 422: Part 2

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Winchester 422
Winchester’s 422 is another lower-powered breakbarrel from the 1960s and ’70s.

Part 1

History of airguns

This report covers:

  • Preparation
  • Air Arms Falcon pellets
  • RWS Hobby
  • RWS Meisterkugeln Heavy
  • Something else
  • Cocking effort
  • Trigger pull
  • Summary

Today we look at the power of the Winchester 422 I’m reviewing. The 422 is in the same power class as the Diana 23, so I’m hoping to see some lightweight pellets in the 400 f.p.s. range.

Preparation

We have looked at several vintage breakbarrel springers in this blog in recent times. You readers are now reminding me of things to do before shooting one of them. 

First, check the breech seal. That’s what lead to the El Gamo David report being stopped until I can replace the seal. When I examined this Winchester 422 seal it looked to be in good condition. Breech seals in the Diana 22 and 23 are located on the end of the spring tube and not at the rear of the barrel. I believe that’s because of the small size of the airgun. There isn’t room for a substantial seal on the end of the barrel.

The second thing to do is oil the piston seal. I believe reader Yogi reminded me to do that. So I dropped 5 drops of Crosman Pellgunoil down the muzzle of the barrel with the rifle standing on its butt. As I begin today’s test the piston seal and breech seal have been oiled for three days.

Air Arms Falcon pellets

Normally I would start testing with RWS Hobbys, but in recent tests the
Air Arms Falcon pellet has been faster. So I will start with them. I will show the first 10 shots to discuss them with you.

Shot………Vel.
1…………..354

I seated the first pellet deep with a ballpoint pen. The Falcon fit the breech loose, so I didn’t deep-seat shot two.

2…………..389

After seeing the velocity of shot two I decided to just seat the remaining pellets flush with the breech.

3…………..401
4…………..397
5…………..421
6…………..413
7…………..420
8…………..415
9…………..417
10…………419

I didn’t average this string because it seemed like the rifle was “waking up.” So I shot a second string of the same Falcon pellets and they averaged 416 f.p.s. The low was 411 and the high was 424 f.p.s. That’s a spread of 13 f.p.s. At the average velocity this 7.33-grain pellet generated 2.82 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle. It seems clear that the rifle is now performing at its best.

RWS Hobby

Now it’s time to look at RWS Hobbys and see what they do. From what we have just seen, I’m thinking they will average even faster than the Falcons, because their wider skirts give the resistance this Diana seems to want.

Ten Hobbys averaged 449 f.p.s. The low was 443 and the high was 455 f.p.s., so the spread was 12 f.p.s. I guess I should have remembered that Dianas like RWS pellets! At the average muzzle velocity the muzzle energy was 3.13 foot-pounds.

RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle

Now it’s time to try a heavier pellet. I stayed with RWS and shot the 8.2-grain Meisterkugeln Rifle. Ten of them averaged 417 f.p.s., which is faster than the Falcons! The low was 413 and the high was 421, so the spread was just 8 f.p.s. At the average velocity this pellet generated 3.17 foot-pounds at the muzzle.

Something else

I could see that the mainspring was dry, so I removed the barreled action from the stock and oiled the spring, as well as the base block that holds the barrel. I used something called Snake Oil, but it no longer seems to be available. Someone is selling oil under the same name, but the product has changed. Any good bicycle chain oil would work just as well. It just needs to be a little thinner than general-purpose household oil.

After oiling, RWS Hobbys averaged 450 f.p.s. with an 11 f.p.s. spread from 445 to 456 f.p.s. So, not much difference. But the rifle did cock much quieter and smoother.

Cocking effort

I measured the cocking effort after oiling the mainspring and the base block. It took 10 pounds of force to cock the 422. That makes this a kid’s airgun for sure!

Trigger pull

The two-stage trigger takes 1 lb. 9 oz. for stage one and 5 lbs. 14 oz. for stage two. As light as the rifle is, stage two feels heavier than the number indicates. It does break cleanly and we should bear in mind that this is a simple direct-sear trigger. The rifle is shooting so well that I am reluctant to take it apart — not for fear of messing it up but for fear I will find parts that need replacing. If it ain’t broke…

Summary

This little Winchester 422 is performing very well, indeed. Better than I had hoped. I sure hope it’s somewhat accurate, to boot!

Reader Breeze is sending me a replacement front sight that isn’t bent. I plan to first test the rifle with the bent sight to see if the bend was intentional. I don’t think it was, but you never know. Then I’ll install the new one and see how well it works.

185 thoughts on “Winchester 422: Part 2

  1. B.B.,

    Why Snake Oil instead of Lithium Grease as usual? Is the spring that weak? Wouldn’t the thinner than general-purpose household oil simply dry out faster over time?

    Siraniko

    PS Section Air Arms Falcon pellets last paragraph 2nd sentence: “So I shot a second sting (string) of the same Falcon pellets and they averaged 416 f.p.s.”





      • B.B.

        I know some people who think it is the “bees knees” and others who think it is horrible.
        The people in the horrible camp say it just attracts dust and flashes off. I don’t know what to think?

        -Y


        • Yogi,

          In truth, they are both partially right. It can be used as a good penetrant to get into the tiniest of cracks. It also tends to dry out quickly and in some cases make a mess. I have some and use it for some things, but usually follow up with something else when I can.



          • Michael,

            +1 on WD-40 as a penetrating oil and indeed, it does gum up over time.

            It seems to be a solvent that will reconstitute dried-out lubricants rather than being a lubricant in it’s own right. I use it in special cases so it’s on my “problem solver” shelf, but there are much better penetrating oils, Kroil, PBblaster for rusty joints…

            Dan



            • Here is what people are missing.

              Say you lubricate your cocking linkages on your break barrel with WD40.

              When it drys up after time it will leave that wax barrier that will protect the pivot points.

              Trust me it works. Its like the bronze oil lite bushings on the old Acme Gridly screw machines if anybody knows what they are.


              • Gunfun1

                I keep some WD40 around but rarely use it due to hearing the negatives not just here but before I ever read this blog. Your comment about cocking linkages makes me wonder all the more. In your example does the WD40 seal the original lube on the linkage friction contacts or lube ingredients in WD40 itself? I used to use it in fishing reels. When it gummed up simply squirt some more in. Good to go.

                But the point made that Ballistol is the stuff the German army used in both world wars is rather convincing that it is as good as it gets for overcoming friction in cold and hot temperatures. Think Arctic troops with a 98K or a MG42 after switching barrels several times.

                Deck


    • Yogi,

      WD-40 is excellent for a lot of applications but it is not an “all purpose” product.

      The properties that make it great for freeing up ferrous parts plays hell with brass parts and zinc based (“white metal” or “pot metal”) castings.

      I cleaned and lubricated a couple of locks with WD-40 and after a couple of days the locks became so loose that any key that would fit into the slot would open them – the metal was etched that badly!

      Heard a joke that it is called “WD-40” because WD-1 thru WD-39 didn’t work 🙂

      WD-40 is good stuff, always have a can available and use it for flushing out dirt and old grease but when I am done I clean it off and apply a proper grease or oil.

      Just my experience with it.

      Hank


      • Hank,

        My understanding is that “WD” stands for water displacement and it was indeed the 40th formula tested for that purpose, so the joke is not that far off.

        In my limited experience I find it good for initial cleaning applications and for some – limited – corrosion resistance. It is very good for removing the goo left behind when removing stickers such as from a windshield.

        I do not like it as a lubricant or as long term rust preventative; I believe that there are much better products for that.

        Henry




    • CB,

      Yo, dude! That thing looks to be in pretty good shape! That is most definitely worth bringing back to life! You are going to enjoy that little jewel!

      P.S. Nobody responded to your question of the date code. It does indeed say it was built in June of 1969.


      • RR.

        Honestly I couldn’t be happier with the purchase of this gun. It ticks all the boxes of: I got a decent deal on it, it’s fun to shoot (though I decided that I won’t shoot it until I get the scraping figured out), and I get to tinker with it. Wins all the way around!

        Thanks for confirming the date.

        CB


    • Captain Bravo,

      Beautiful air rifle! You’re right about the trigger. My 427 (which I named “The Gaylord” because of Tom’s expert tune) has two small screws directly on the base of the trigger, in front of the blade. Of course any trigger might be very nice, including yours.

      A bit of lubrication on the spring might stop the scraping, but as others here have said, the cause of the scraping is something that should be determined.

      Michael


      • Michael,
        Your 427 has been an inspiration for me. I hope mine turns out well too.

        I am not really complaining about the trigger. I just note that I can only see one screw instead of two. It is definitely a trigger that I can work with, though I am sure that I am not as good a shot as BB.

        I do plan to investigate. That’s half the fun. 🙂

        CB


  2. BB,

    Snake Oil?! Thinner than multipurpose household oil?! That is pretty thin. That does not sound like a long term solution to me.

    I have a lubricant that I use on my motorcycle cables. It is fine graphite suspended in a very thin solution which quickly evaporates, leaving the graphite behind.

    I may have to go out to my laboratory and see what fiendish concoction I can create.


    • RR,

      Talking about “fiendish concoctions”, my favorite “snake oil” recipe is to dilute regular “3in1 Household Oil” (light machine oil) with naphtha. Ratio is not critical, a couple of drops (or a small squirt 🙂 ) of oil in a tablespoon of naphtha works well.

      Use this to clean dirt and old grease out of closed mechanical assemblies (like trigger housings and mechanical watches). After cleaning, the naphtha evaporates and leaves a thin film of oil on the metal.

      The other custom lubricant I use for the chambers of low power springers (where dieseling is not a big problem) is a mix of synthetic 5w-30 motor oil and STP (’bout a 3 to 1 ratio). Works for me.

      Hank


      • Hank,

        I was thinking of the red grease (TIAT) and mineral spirits. My thinking was the mineral spirits would evaporate and leave the TIAT behind. Naphtha would probably work great.


        • RR,

          Interesting thought. The whole benefit of the tacky grease that it stays in place, wonder if thinning it (for application purposes) and having the carrier evaporate would (negatively) impact those desirable properties.

          I have a tube of the Lucas Tacky Red grease and lots of naphtha. It would be easy to test. Will see if I get some time to try that.

          Later…

          Hank



            • RR,

              Naphtha worked well for thinning the Lucas Red & Tacky.

              Trying some thinned down to “honey” consistency and some to “syrup”. The samples are “drying” right now – will check them in the morning and get back to you.

              H


              • Great! I am waiting impatiently now. It is starting to sound like I need to get some naphtha. If this works it will be a great way to give springs and such a light coating.


                • RR,

                  Good idea you had!

                  I checked the samples this morning and to my “scientific finger test” the Red & Tacky grease reverted back to it’s pre-thinned state.

                  As best as I can tell, after the naphtha evaporated the grease is just as tacky and slippery as the stuff straight from the tube.

                  Think that this might be a quick way to lubricate the spring and chamber on a springer without taking it apart – flush out the old grease and dirt with varsol, swish the inside with a tablespoon or two of thinned TIAT and let the carrier evaporate to leave a thin coat of grease behind.

                  Might be an idea to keep a large jar of the thinned TIAT for dipping assemblies or parts into; guess that the stuff could be painted on with a brush as well.

                  Like this idea because for many applications, grease is better than oil but it is more awkward to apply.

                  Anyway, attached is a picture of the grease that I took this morning – sorry to have used red lids for evaporating trays, that is what I had a hand. What I am trying to show is how well the thinned grease flowed before setting up.

                  Guess that I will be calling this “RR-Grease” 🙂

                  Cheers!
                  Hank



                    • Shootski,

                      The left lid was thinned to the consistency of (pancake) syrup and the right lid to about the viscosity of honey.

                      Both lids flowed nicely, the right lid looks rough because I was poking my fingers in it to check if it and set-up – should have taken the picture first 🙂

                      Hank


                  • Hank,

                    This is awesome! It was indeed my idea to “paint” springs or such when reassembling these old airguns. Depending on how thin you made it, this would give a light coating that would cling to the spring, preventing rust and lubricate the rear of the compression chamber to help reduce friction, scraping and gouging.

                    I am not sure of the varsol. I am unfamiliar with that. I would have concerns with seals being damaged by any solvents. Alcohol might not be a bad thing. Now the idea of swishing some thinned TIAT around inside afterwards most definitely has some merit.

                    Another thing is, I really like going inside. I always like to see how it was done. This also allows me to give a good visual inspection to everything. Just do not lose any of the little parts. 😉


                    • RR,

                      Varsol is just another petroleum distillate. IIRC, from oil (as it is refined) you go to various light oils, then diesel fuel, then JP4 (jet fuel), then automotive gas, then Varsol, then naphtha. Or some such thing, its been a long time since I looked at that stuff.

                      Grease, being petroleum based, should (depending on additives ) play well with all the other petroleum distillates. I use naphtha for cleaning and thinning because it is highly refined (low odor and leaves no residue when it evaporates).

                      Don’t think that alcohol would work as well as it is a totally different base. What makes it good for cleaning might break down the grease rather than just thinning it.

                      Don’t know for sure – maybe more knowledgeable people could chime in.

                      Definitely think that thinning TIAT grease has a lot of potential uses and I will be experimenting with it.

                      Hank


                  • Hank,

                    Please do continue with your experimentation with TIAT and do keep us up to speed.

                    As for alcohol, I was referring to 91% isopropyl alcohol which I often use for parts cleaning, but it sounds like I need to add a couple of more chemicals to my “Junior Mad Scientist” laboratory.


                    • RR,

                      For your “Junior Mad Scientist” laboratory might I suggest a couple of items…

                      In addition to naphtha and the isopropanol you mentioned I also keep lacquer thinner and methyl hydrate. I also use acetone as a cleaner and plastic solvent/welder.

                      Acetone (and hexane, heptane and toluene) requires extra care as it is nasty stuff.

                      Not going into details as that would be a whole blog! Suffice to say, as with all chemicals, read the labels before using and take the appropriate safety measures.

                      I mentioned (recently) that there are enough chemicals in the average house to blow it right off of its foundations – the ones listed above certainly are on that list.

                      Most people don’t know that gasoline is 6 TIMES more powerful than gunpowder and don’t give it the respect that it is due.

                      Cheers!
                      Hank



  3. BB

    Lubricants are as mysterious as ever, at least for me they are. I get it with TIAT being tacky and reducing vibration. Also for chamber oils that don’t detonate. Grease for gears, yeah. But for reducing friction there seems to be an endless array of opinions about what works best. Hoping you will clear the air. Oh let’s not overlook Ballistol.

    Deck


    • Decksniper,

      “Lubricants are as mysterious as ever, at least for me they are.” Most manufacturers provide recommendations on proper servicing intervals and what consumables should be used. Why are spring piston airguns such a difficult powerplant to understand and care for? Said the Dark Side disciple! I just can’t understand the need for all this paraphinelia like: spring compressors, piston head pullers, compression tube hones, specialty tars, and grease, and gaskets that are confusing even for the Cognoscenti?

      Not to mention that heavier pellets seem to make them TWANG, loose power and break?

      And THEY say PCP are difficult to understand and use!!!

      smh!

      shootski


      • Shootski,

        And the Dark Side does not have all of it’s paraphernalia? Hand pump, tank, compressor, specialty lubricants, gaskets, o rings, Biden springs, yadayadayada.

        ROTFL!

        I am a fan of both the Dark Side and the sproinger. My first airgun was a Gamo sproinger. Then I moved into the shade with my Izzy and FWB 601. Then I was lured to the Dark Side with the Talon SS and the Edge.

        Sproingers are no more difficult to understand or care for than a gasser, just different. I think you knew that though. I did enjoy reading your dissertation. You do have quite a way with words sometimes. It is a bit strange though. For someone who claims to be a Dark Side disciple, you seem to know a lot about these. You had best be careful. You may end up being excommunicated.

        P.S. smh? Being a flip phoner, I am unfamiliar with that language. I know a few words, that’s all.



        • RidgeRunner,

          If you can’t keep it light at least some of the time you go crazy!
          I just had an overwhelming needed to show that we can make anything more complex than it needs to be.

          Been watching lots of that here of late. As far as: “You may end up being excommunicated.” I know the Godfather of Airguns! I haven’t found anyone claiming to be the Pope of PCPs! And, Dennis isn’t Catholic! For now I’m not all too worried!

          I started with a springer or two and then I found multi-pumps…never looked back. (I did buy two springer for my son and daughters first air rifles.) When i was thirteen i held my first Girardoni at a museum in Vienna. As soon as the first European PCPs were being built i got a 10 meter or two. Got a multi shot bottle gun in .25 caliber and then found Dennis Quackenbush after a short detour to Maryland and Gary Barnes.

          I look at spring pistons from time to time; still have my eye on the SIG ASP in .22 caliber. I would the SIG in the synthetic stock for hunting squirrel and rabbit. When/if the three year owners are still singing the SIG’s praises. An adjustable cheekpiece or a platform approach would make it easier to sell me on it. There are a few old spring piston at nosebleed prices that tempt me; except for those prices.

          I do want someone to build a practical 7,000+ psi Big Bore with air pressure and volume per shot metering to get at least Lead bullets to upset in the bore. Perhaps in this next decade.

          Bring on the Dark Chocolate!

          shootski


          • Shootski,

            Oh, I very much enjoyed your blurb to Deck. Your Italian/Latin (?) reference inspired the excommunication.

            Comic relief is quite often a very good thing. As I pointed out above, you have a way with words in which sometimes the humor can be subtle. Sometimes it is quite akin to what is referred to as “British humor”. I myself enjoy that immensely. I must be careful because my poor attempts at such can often offend when none is meant. Gunfun1 and I were just bantering about my having to take turns as to who was the class clown.

            Just so you know, I am now officially jealous. You have held an actual Girarndoni. Then just to rub it in, you have owned at least one of Gary’s and Dennis’.

            As for the Dark Chocolate, I like 75% or higher. 😉


    • Deck,

      I agree.

      I would really like to see a blog on all the lubricants for airgun maintenance. Especially springers. The manufacturer packaging and even pyramydaiir don’t go into detail about their use.

      We have… RWS and Crossman chamber oil, pellgun oil, ballistol, TIAT…

      Then we have the household lubricants. White lithium grease, 3-in-one oil, WD-40, axle grease…

      I generally understand that petroleum based products are to be avoided in the compression chamber or barrel, where dieseling can occur. Thats bad.

      But where is it ok to use these household lubricants? And what are the best uses for the dedicated airgun lubricants?

      StarboardRower



  4. B.B.,
    I echo Michael’s sentiments; this is a sweet little rifle, that would be a great starter rifle for a kid. Like the Diana 23 I gave my nephew, this is svelte, lightweight, and easy to cock. Hence, I am wondering, why are manufacturers not making guns like this now (literally 3 fpe rifles that weigh 3 pounds)? Obviously, they could; so I am guessing their marketing people are telling them no one will buy them (despite all the kids for whom they’d be perfect)? Or would it just be too costly to produce a similar small rifle at this level of quality? The Bronco you brought out was neat; you would think more manufacturers would want to go that route…I must be missing something.
    Have a blessed weekend,
    dave


    • Dave,

      Like you said, the marketeers do not feel a low powered air rifle will sell, at least here in the U.S. We are still hung up on speed, power. We want to drop an elephant at 1000 yards, NOW!

      What many neophytes to sproingers fail to understand is that as a general rule, the more power that a sproinger has, the less accurate it is. Another thing is their range is very limited. You may be able to lob a pellet out to 100 yards with one, but as a general rule their effective range is under 50. Yes, there are a bunch of engineers trying to get around these issues, but they ain’t there yet.

      Now, the good news is that there are some brand spankin’ new low powered sproingers out there if you look for them. Here’s one.

      https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Ruger_Explorer/2016

      😉


      • “the marketeers do not feel a low powered air rifle will sell, at least here in the U.S. We are still hung up on speed, power.”
        RidgeRunner, I hear you; in the US, people figure bigger is always better; and they think if 1000 fps is good, then 1400 fps must be much better! Which as we know if far from the truth with “spoingers” (love that word =>). My .22 HW30S only shoots at 485 fps (with a 13.43 g JSB pellet); buy it’s a great 40-yard plinker, and it shoots even smoother than my old Beeman R7 (.177). As B.B. has mentioned several times, the 6 to 8 fpe springers are a real joy to shoot. Yet a lot of people tend to buy for their imagined “needs;” while they will likely only wind up plinking and target shooting in their backyard, they feel they need a 100 fpe rifle…just in case a mountain lion escapes from the zoo and happens to wind up in their backyard, LOL! =)~


        • Dave,

          Now a funny thing is, I live in the woods and hills and recently there have been mountain lion sightings around here. If one should happen to wander into my back yard while I am out hunting feral soda cans, I do not think I will aggravate him by shooting him with one of my pellet guns. I might use it as a club.


          • ” I do not think I will aggravate him by shooting him with one of my pellet guns. ”
            Yeah man, do not use that BSA, because then you might have to club him with the gun, and that rifle is too nice for such use! =)~


  5. Well it finally arrived. I think Decksniper was more excited anticipating its delivery than I was, if that was possible. Beautiful gun!!! It’s amazing shooting a magnum springer like this and feeling absolutely no recoil impulse when you pull the trigger.I followed your advice, Deck and push the sledge forward before I cock it, which makes the cocking pretty easy. The trigger is perfect. It seems to be a single stage with no creep, which I like. The loudest noise when shooting seems to be a mechanical ping, which I take has something to do with the sledge system. You definitely know when you reach the wall before the trigger lets off. I’ve been shooting Barracuda Match 10.65 4.52mm pellets and they seem to be a good match, all puns intended. Here is a group from about 7 to 8 yards, shooting off hand while sitting in my loveseat, which I call “Couch Potato” shooting. I had some trouble finding the post in the notch in that dark background. The rifles 9.9 pounds seem very well balanced and make it easy to keep a steady hold off hand. We’ll see how it holds up for the next 30 days.

    Brent



    • Brent,
      Congrats! Now, beautiful is truly beautiful, such a visual fest. I think your grand grand kids will be very excited one day as well.
      Would you share some heavy pellet chrony numbers with us?
      Fish


    • Brent,

      That is Hector Medina’s favorite air rifle. He knows them inside and out. He reduces the power on his and uses them in WFT competition.

      We are really looking forward to what you have to say about her.



    • Brent,

      Congratulations on your Diana 54. I had one in .22 caliber and spent a lot of time with that gun. This was a long time ago before B.B. helped design a scope base for the diana guns that solved the scope “slipping” problem.

      Your trigger is two stage and can be adjusted very nicely. The gun has decent sights but since it’s accurate out to long range yardages I predict you will mount a scope. Know that these guns are “scope killers” so would encourage you to go with a light weight scope that is HIGHLY springer rated and the appropriate base for diana guns. I shot mine a lot at 100 yards early in the morning before wind.

      Here’s a good write up by a Diana 54 fanatic, Eddie Colwell:

      http://www.eddiecolwell.tzo.com/rws-54.htm




    • Brent
      Sounds good so far.

      And pushing the action forward before cocking should be in the user manual on those type of guns. I even do that with my FWB 300s before I cock it.

      I knew you would like it. Wait and see what happens when you start stretching the distance. They just keep performing.

      And don’t know about you but they are a well balanced gun and do not feel like they weigh as much as they do when you shoulder them.

      Waiting to hear more.

      Forgot to ask. Did you get a test target with it and a chrony report? If you got yours from were I got mine from it came with the gun and what pellet they used to if I remember right.


      • Gunfun1 & Brent

        Very handsome rifle indeed. Wish I had one. Do keep us informed on how it performs.

        GF1, you or someone else deserves credit for the tip. But how do you push the cocking action forward on the FWB300S after the shooting cycle? Mine is already forward or so I think? I do remember once having a heavy scope on it and the sledge acting odd. I took it off.

        Deck


        • Deck
          I did mention pushing the action forward in my 54 before I cock it.the other day to lighten the cocking load. Me and BB was talking about the TX 200 SR when I mentioned it.

          But anyway my 300 doesn’t do it every time but I am in the habit of pushing forward first before I cock it and my 54. I think my 300 does it because I put that heavier single spring in it.



  6. That would really be a fun gun to learn on, with the light cocking force and 400s fps. I second (or third) what Michael and Thedavemyster said. What would be nice would be a light cocking force rifle with a Swarm-type rotary magazine.

    After reading the “Why .20 caliber” blog, was wondering if “slugs” would work better in a .20 cal since a slug of a given mass would generally be shorter in .20 cal than in .177 cal and so easier to stabilize at slower spin rate.


  7. Can you guys stand anther Daisy 499 barrel update? I couldn’t wrap my head around the lack of improvement swapping that Daisy 499 barrel into a vintage Crosman 1600 pistol. Took the Crosman apart again this evening and found the barrel was out of position and not seated tight up against the valve. What the ??? Reset the barrel and snugged down the locking set screw a bit tighter this time. The next 10 shots were dramatically better than the control groups shot before conversion. Distance was a whopping BB gun friendly 21 feet. Tonight’s final ten shot group with the Daisy precision shot was in the neighborhood of 40% smaller than the average of my control groups (Crosman BBs and original Crosman barrel). Maybe too early to say its a complete.success, but it was encouraging to find the problem with the barrel and see such an immediate improvement afterward.


    • Derrick,

      Thanks for the update.

      Did you happen to see the link i posted about the Daisy Championships? They have a section about how they roll bb on a piece of plate glass and listen for clicks to eliminate bad pellets before they sort them by size. They eliminate like half or more of the bb from each tube! They also talk about buying multiples of barrels to pick the most accurate…also about trigger work on the 499s. Sounds like a lot more than just buy and shoot to me!

      Glad you found the issue to improve 40% is big-time improvement!

      shootski


      • Shootski,

        I did give the article a quick scan and did find the whole sorting bb’s and barrels bit fascinating. Pellet sorters have it easy compared to that. I think they said that only 10% of the bb’s might make the final cut.

        Chris


    • Derrick,

      “Can you guys stand anther Daisy 499 barrel update?”,…… are you kidding? I’ll take all I can get! 🙂

      Well done! Looking forwards to further conformation. If anything, you (may) have shown the benefit of using the 499 barrel and bb combo in (all) bb pistols to the people who make them. Maybe your work will inspire other people (home modders) to push the idea even further, across other models.

      Chris



      • GF1

        The groups were pretty round last night. Before, they were all flyers. Its still a long double.action trigger, so I’m doing the best I can with it. Now, I’m not happy with the non-adjustable rear sight.


        • Derrick
          Have you thought about putting a stop behind the trigger to have it stop right as the shot breaks. I done that to my Colt Pyrhon after it was suggested on the blog. It helped alot.

          And do you have a different gun to try the barrel on?


          • I’ve not considered a trigger stop. Is it crazy that I actually have no idea if I have any other BB pistols? I’d have to go through some gun cases and look. Regardless, the barrel now fits the Crosman 1600.


            • Derrick,

              A trigger stop/over-travel stop is really nice. I got an extra trigger guard for a TX200 and drilled and tapped for a 4-40 screw and used weed wacker fuel line as a compression lock/lock device. It worked great.

              You could tape something to the trigger or guard as a test. You can play with different lengths that way and not damage anything, yet still test the use of a stop.

              Chris


            • Derrick
              My trigger stop was simple to make. I just put a big spot of hot glue behind the trigger on the trigger gaurd. Then after it dried I took a Exacto knife and shaped into a square and kept trimming some off just until the shot went off when it hit the hot glue spot.

              And yep true about being for the 1600.

              Well you do anything keep us posted. I’m interested to see what you end up with.


          • GF1,

            I had forgotten about the hot glue trick. If not mistaken, they make different ones that have higher and lower melt temps. and (may?) set up to different degrees of hardness.

            Chris


    • Derrick,

      That sounds great. A trigger stop may help. Keep us posted.

      Maybe a little molly grease on the trigger parts, pins, seat etc. Don’t know how the 1600 trigger is set up.

      Don



  8. Well I guess I’ll let the cat out of the bag. Shootski already knew from the other day when I was going to order it. I mentioned it to him.

    As of yesterday I’m now officially a big bore air gun owner. Yep the other dark side of PCP’s.

    I ended up getting a Wingshot ll. And to say not right now anyway or maybe even not at all that I will shoot round balls or bullets or arrows with it. The majority of its life with me will be using it as a shot gun. I use to shot gun shoot alot when I was kid growing up. And I do have some firearm shot guns but have wanted one of these air gun shotguns forever. Matter of fact BB done a review back in 2015 on the original Wingshot and I have been wanting one ever since.

    But I shot it pretty much yesterday as well as my younger daughter that still lives at home. First shot on low power I hit a aluminum can at 35 yards with no problem. Then my daughter did the exact same thing.

    Then we decided to use the rocket launcher to use as a can thrower. We had it out at 35 yards and we used high power on the gun to try to help get the shot to the can quicker. We would take turns with one of shooting at the can launcher with my TX200 and the other would be ready to shoot the can when it launched. It was a blast. I did not miss one shot all day. And out of probably 10 shots my daughter only missed 3 shots of hitting the flying can. We had a total blast shooting it yesterday. And it was a very nice day outside. It made it up to 72° and a very mild wind here and there. And it was a slight over cast day so no bright sunshine in the eyes.

    But I was surprised with the gun. Its built very nice and has nice wood and metal. And the gun is almost 8 pounds but it doesn’t feel it when you shoulder it. It’s very well balanced.

    My daughter likes it alot. She said it’s much better to shoot than the 12 and 20 gauge shot guns we have. She says she feels a slight recoil. To me it didn’t feel like it was recoiling at all. I guess when I pick up a 12 or 20 gauge I’m know there will be a kick. Not the Wingshot. And we both like that it’s way, way quieter than the firearm shot guns. But it’s not back yard friendly to shoot. It does make some noise.

    Anyway just thought I would let you all know about it.


  9. Don
    Thanks.

    I have been going back and forth about getting one for a long time. I’m definitely glad I got it. It for sure is more than I expected.

    I probably will use it mostly like me and my daughter did yesterday. But they do now allow air shot guns and airguns in Illinois for certian hunting. I mostly just squirrel hunt anymore. But I might go Turkey or qual hunting this year since its now legal with a air shot gun. Need some more penetration testing though before I do any hunting. Especially on a Turkey or squirrel.

    But yep happy so far.


    • GF1,

      Congratulations! 🙂 Hopefully you will at least try some solid projectiles out it. Glad you got one finally. You have been talking about it for several years now.

      Chris


      • Chris
        Thanks.

        Yep for some time now.

        And I will probably at some point in time try round balls and bullets if anything to see the energy it’s making. They say up around 230 fpe with bullets or round balls.

        I do have a pretty good heavy metal .22 rimfire trap I use for my air guns. It’s out at 50 yards. Got it up on one of those concrete blocks that have the 2 holes in it with a old tree stump behind the block and stop they rest up against. I bet it will try to knock the target stop off the block with that much energy.

        And speaking energy. We were using the long #8 shot shot shells yesterday. When we was hitting the aluminum can at 35 yards in the air it was knocking the can back about 5 yards and spinning the can around it was hitting so hard. So it’s making good energy even with the birdshot. It is cool gun.


    • Gunfun.

      I grew up in West central Illinois. Ever hear of Pittsfield? You’re down by St. Louis, aren’t you? I thought the quail were mostly gone because so many farmers have bush hogged and cleared out the fence rows. My family still has some farm land and I can’t remember when I last kicked up a covey of quail—used to all the time when I was a kid.

      Brent


      • Brent
        No I haven’t heard of Pittsfield. Sorry What towns is it by?

        And I live in probably the only place in Illinois that is still wooded with farm fields scattered in between. And probably the only hilly place thrown in the area.

        I can walk the one tree line that runs by the creek out on one side of the farm field and easily get 2 covey of qual to flush in a little over a hundred yards of walking.

        My squirrel dog ran some out into the middle of the field a little while back after the farmer harvested his soy beans this year. Had to be at least 10 of them. So yes they are still around here. Horseshoe lake in Madison illinios is where I grew up at on the farm. There is still quail and duck out there pretty heavy.

        Maybe we just got the right conditions for them here. But they have always been good here. Rabbits and squirrel to.


  10. Greetings all,
    As I mentioned to Bob and Chris, I decided to try a scope on my Daisy 880.
    (B.B. did an extensive report on this rifle here: https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2014/05/daisy-880-part-6/ )
    As noted, the only reason I bought this rifle is because it was “free;” I got it along with a bunch of other stuff, for getting a new Amazon Prime store card. Anyway, it shot nicer than expected, but ONLY with pellets that are longer and heavier than usual (otherwise, as B.B. noted in his report, the pellets tend to flip over, or even get caught in the BB loading port). The gun came with a 4X 15mm scope that I did not use; instead, I put on the “spare” (for my HW30S) 6X BugBuster that I ran out and bought when I found out they were discontinued. Since it’s been in a drawer for months, I figured why not try it on the Daisy? I mean, it’s not like it has any recoil. =>




    • Yet while the accuracy seemed OK, the repeatability of it was not; I was in that place that B.B. said not to be (in his report on scope mounting); I was up at least 60 clicks on elevation…like NO spring tension.
      So, I added two shims under the rear mount on the scope…that worked out well.


    • After dialing in the windage, I got a nice little 3-shot group.
      “Hey dave, B.B. would have shot more shots.”
      Yes, and he would have shot a smaller group, too.
      He has more skill and more patience than I do. =>


    • My long range 5-shot group was not really any smaller than before the shimming, but the accuracy is repeatable now, and it was not before; the point of impact might shift as much as an inch at 20 feet!
      But now the rifle shoots consistently.


    • The issue with this rifle is the trigger; at 15 yards, my HW30S can always hit these little targets (and smaller ones); the Daisy can hit them about half the time; if I pull the trigger reeeeeally slowly, it hits a fake 2nd stage, and from there a tiny pull sets it off; it shoots great when that happens…but it doesn’t happen all the time.
      At 39 yards, the Daisy can hit the end of a soda can most of the time, where the HW30S can hit a pecan (we have tons of those) at the same distance.


    • My chronograph is old; it only works at high noon on a sunny day, LOL!
      Luckily, today was sunny.
      I get 550 fps (7 fpe) with 7 pumps, which is what I chose to use with this rifle.
      (why 7? it’s the heavenly number of perfection, where 6 is imperfection; hence, “666” = imperfect, imperfect, IMPERFECT…quite an understatement)
      At the full 10 pumps, I get 590 fps (8.1 fpe).
      Overall, it’s a nice little plinker…IF you use pellets that are long enough. =>



        • Don, the most surprising thing about this rifle is that it is so easy to pump, and the 10th pump is just as easy as the 1st pump; at first, I thought the extra pumps couldn’t be adding any power (2 weeks ago, an overcast day, so the chrono would not register), so I shot an old 2″x4″ at 10 pumps, and buried the pellet deeply into the wood. =>



      • Dave,

        Thank you for that most excellent report. I am so glad you got a scope on it. Now you know it is doing all it can do. (yup, too high on elevation is very bad!)

        That is good to know about heavier pellets doing better. As for the trigger, I would have to get in there and see what might be done. I have never torn one down, so I am no help there. I am sure there is something online from someone who has. That would be my next step to better accuracy (reducing bad shots due to a stiff/poor trigger).

        Thanks again,… Chris


        • Chris, you are most welcome. And as for the trigger, the more I shoot the 880, the more it seems that the trigger is wearing in; if I can get to that “fake” 2nd stage on every shot, it will definitely improve the accuracy. =>


          • Dave,

            The Maximus trigger was very easy to work on. It pulled out as a unit with the action. It never came off the action in fact. Removed the side plate, add two 4-40 screws in already existing holes, pull a spring and replace it with a ball point pen spring, lube everything and done. The one screw advanced the trigger mech. and the other was an over travel stop. The first stage was nothing more than the trigger pushing against a spring. Overall huge improvement.

            It may be that easy,.. or not. I would at least give it a look.

            Chris


      • Thedavemyster,

        I really liked our 880 (as well as other multi-pumps) when my kids were just getting started shooting. I did a mod to them right away since we never shot bb out of the 880 or other rifled “dual” ammo airguns: at first i just dripped candle wax into the bb port and shaped it with my finger to keep it clear of pellets. Later on i used some Liquid Steel and made it more permanent. My preference for Multi-Pumps stemmed from the ability/flexibility to vary the power to match the need of the pellet for accuracy as well as the power requirement of planned use.

        I enjoyed this comment of yours:
        “Yet a lot of people tend to buy for their imagined “needs;” while they will likely only wind up plinking and target shooting in their backyard, they feel they need a 100 fpe rifle…just in case a mountain lion escapes from the zoo and happens to wind up in their backyard, LOL! =)~” My son and daughter-in-law have found Mountain Lion’s prints in their backyard on several occasions. They keep a Mossberg 590A1 in a rack at their back patio door overlooking their backyard and the BST (Bonneville Shoreline Trail.) They have debated on if it needs a bayonet since it has a lug!!! I shared your statement with them and they just laughed. About a month ago a guy was chased by a PUMA a few miles South of them on the Bonneville Shoreline Trail near Spanish Fork, Utah. They would want a bit more power than a 100 FPS airgun to substitute for the 12 gauge. ;^)

        My current multi-pumpers are now all wood stocked and mostly collectors items shot only occasionally. That may change back some day….

        Thanks again for your post on your 880!

        shootski


        • Shootski,

          There was a fellow on the net and news just a short while back that ran up on a PUMA??? and backed out for (quite) a ways and caught the whole thing on his phone. The critter was growling and slapping the ground with much authority the whole way. Not sure if it was the same instance/area though,…

          Chris


          • Chris USA,

            That’s the one! That guy was lucky!

            There have been quite a few Mountain Lion moving along the East benches of late. They have always been there but I think with all the people working from home and walking during times the cats aren’t used to seeing people means they are being noticed more often.



              • Chris USA,

                There are at least three benches in the Great Salt Lake Valley! The top bench on the Eastern Side of the valley is called the East Bench: “The Bonneville Bench, at approximately 5100 feet elevation, is actually the preserved shoreline–called a terrace or bench by geologists–of the ice age Lake Bonneville at its maximum. This shoreline marks the highest level attained by the Pleistocene lake approximately 15,500 years ago.”

                shootski


        • Shootski,

          Good move on the wax and later,.. liquid steel! Yes,.. that can be an issue. With the 3D printing now,.. maybe a little snap in/drop in fix would be in order? I now have a Barra 1866 with the same issue (bb port wide open to inadvertent pellet fall in).

          Chris


          • Chris USA,

            Used the same melted wax trick on the sunken breech screw (older breech) in the 13XX and 22XX loading troughs. I don’t recommend the Liquid Steel for that! LOL!

            shootski


            • Shootski,

              Not sure why,.. but OK. That stuff does set up steel hard though,.. I do know that. Getting it right while it is still soft is (very much) to your advantage.

              Chris


              • Chris
                If you dip your finger in water and run it over the JB weld it will form like clay and leave a very smooth finish on the surface. Got to do that before it sets up though.


        • Shootski, after reading what B.B. said, I was all set to block off the BB loading port; but then I started trying long pellets, and they work fine.
          As for this phrase, “a lot of people tend to buy for their imagined ‘needs’,” I have to give credit for that to the salesman that sold us our first hot tub; although, I have since seen that it applies to nearly everything. =>


          • Thedavemyster,

            Ah! Hot Tubs…a far cry from the natural Hot Springs they try so hard to mimick; poor substitution results for almost anything from out in the “Natural” World we humans try to posess in our homes or backyards!

            shootski



      • Thanks, B.B.; as you noted, it’s the luck of the draw with these things; based on one of your comments about how a refurb can be better than a new gun (i.e. it’s already been “tested”), I grabbed this rifle, and it seems I lucked out with a good one; hence, I thought I would pass along the data to where I knew it would be appreciated. =>


        • Dave,

          You can put stuff in the butt too, I think. Spray foam, silicone, beads, putty, cat litter, walnut shell bits, etc..

          It will change the weight, feel and balance. More “solid”.

          Hey,… people do it! 😉

          Chris


  11. The usual, long time reader first time commenting.
    Nurse here in Los Angeles

    I had a beat up Winchester 422 in non working order. Lots of rust and missing both sights. Bought it in a garage sale. I said had because found the sights and other parts on Ebay and ordered seals from Chamber’s. Followed the advice and tips given by both B.B and members (Cleaned the rust and stock and installed a new spring and seals). The rifle is not that pretty but shoots and cocks wonderfully. Not a great achievement given that it is a child’s gun. However, it was my first time attempting a rebuild. Not ready to thinker with my leaky FWB 124 LOL. Also found a Diana model 5 with a wooden grip. After taking it apart discovered that a section needs to be soldered back into place. Will seek advice in the future from you guys ( have a rebuild kit at hand for it).

    Thanks B.B and members for your wealth of knowledge.

    Now, what to do with all those other spare parts I got off Ebay. Need to find me a beat up Diana 25 and 27. Got to hit those garage sales sometime in the future.


    • Alex,

      Good job on getting there and fixing things up. It is good to start out with something cheap or beat up to build up your confidence, like you have done. There is so much information out there these days that it is pretty easy to get into a project with a pretty good level of outcome certainty.

      Glad to have you posting,………. Chris



  12. Gunfun1,

    A brief foray to our past topic of side cockers.

    I was not referring to mounting a side lever as on the Texan. What is done is cutting a new cocking slot on the side and mounting the cocking lever on the side of the “bolt” instead of the top. This makes it much easier to cock, especially if you have rather large paws.

    Some will then cut the top scope rail off and mount a section of Picitinny rail there and/or bolt a piece of larger diameter aluminum pipe over the top and/or off side to stiffen the frame.

    That cocking slot on top cannot be the easiest of machine cuts.



      • GF1,

        The primary advantage is allowing for the stiffening of the frame. When you get into the bigger bores and shooting out past 100 yards. Take a close look at the Texan loading port. It is machined out only on one side and has a side slot for cocking.

        Before there was a Condor, the Talon SS was being converted into the Texan. Almost every model AirForce air rifle was being built long before AirForce introduced it. AirForce has brought out only two novel designs; the Talon and the Edge. Everything else was out there several years before.



        • RidgeRunner,

          Since i am a Disciple and Devote of the Dark Side arts and also a potential AF Big Bore (and small bore) buyer; your post is causing me a passel of concern. I have always looked for as much stabilization as possible from a strong and solid built Receiver on out to the add ons. So this statement of yours sets off alarms: “Some will then cut the top scope rail off and mount a section of Pic(a)tinny rail there and/or bolt a piece of larger diameter aluminum pipe over the top and/or off side to stiffen the frame.” Having not closely examined the AF products is it braised together folded metal? Cast? Forged? Sintered? What is the build method(s) of the Receiver/Action and scope/sight bridge?

          Does any Aftermarket builder fabricate a solid cast machined Receiver from the ground up?

          shootski




        • RidgeRunner,

          Sorry about that! I’m so used to the government web sites doing that. I just automatically click through that stuff since i know that happens. It has something to do with them not updating their site certificates with some outfit that sells that info to Security Program (App) companies.

          The Picatinny Arsenal is the place that the scope/accessory MIL-STD-1913 or STANAG 2324 rail gets the nickname.

          They do some Energetics R&D there as well….

          shootski


  13. Late and off topic again.
    Although I seem to be running with the crowd today.
    My daughter took a course in forensic technology specifically covering finger print recovery. The instructor had a question on the board, “How do you recover fingerprints when they have been sprayed over with WD40?” It’s evidently a trick car thieves use to cover their tracks.
    If you could answer that question you automatically passed the course. But he knew there was no way discovered yet.
    My daughter asked if I had any suggestions? I said there are different types of oil and perhaps they reacted differently to solvents and suggested she try Naphtha since it is really good at rinsing petroleum oil without leaving any residue. She got an old perfume spray bottle and the problem was solved. She actually helped a detective in Florida solve a case after posting it. A new breakthrough in the war against crime!
    She called the makers of WD40 and they admitted to using naphtha as a carrying agent for their top secret lubricant preservative formula. I believe it was originally intended to displace and protect against H2O and took off from there.
    We used a preservative spray called Amlguard (MIL-C-85054) on aircraft battery storage boxes and although not intended for Automotive use was great. Forms a hard protective clear coat. It is not a lubricant. CRC may make a civilian equivalent.

    Reducing trigger recovery travel can be dangerous, especially with a semi auto, if you combine it with substantial recoil it is enough to reset the trigger after each shot… Before you let off the trigger. 😉

    Old guns, and old shooters, are certainly interesting !
    Bob M


Leave a Reply