The TX200 Mark III has an excellent adjustable two-stage trigger.
This report covers:
- Light triggers that don’t help
- Creepy?
- Smooth first stage
- Not-so smooth first stage
- Stage two
- Not just China
- Can you live with trigger creep?
- Summary
Today we continue looking at trigger pull weight and what makes a trigger good or bad. In Part 1 we learned that a crisp trigger feels lighter than it actually is. I hope you also saw why two-stage triggers are used in target guns. A crisp single-stage trigger will work, and the more accustomed the shooter is to it the better it works. But a two-stage trigger allows trigger familiarization to progress much faster, allowing the shooter to learn what to expect much sooner.
Light triggers that don’t help
Now let’s talk about lighter triggers that can be just as bad and dangerous as triggers that are too heavy. We will start with the two-stage trigger whose first stage is creepy.
Creepy?
I don’t mean creepy in the scary or disgusting sense. I mean a trigger that starts and stops when it should be moving smoothly. Remember — we are now talking only about the first stage.
A creepy first stage can run from simply annoying, where the trigger just feels mushy, all the way to the point that the shooter wonders if stage two has been reached — only to feel the trigger slip through the stop point and continue to move. I have heard some shooters complain about a long first stage. I think what many of them are really complaining about is a creepy first stage.
Smooth first stage
Stage one on my FWB P44 target pistol is long but it’s also ultra smooth. There is a slight resistance but it never increases. When you get to stage two the trigger blade stops and you know you are there. Only a few more grams of pressure fires the pistol. That allows you to concentrate on the front sight blade in relation to the bullseye and little else. There is nothing to complain about.
I remember the trigger on a Colt Python firearm revolver I once had was like that. I always knew when the revolver was ready to fire and I could concentrate on other things. That is how a good trigger should act.
Not-so smooth first stage
Probably the worst trigger first stages I’ve felt have been on Chinese spring-piston rifles. They start and stop randomly. But I have also felt good Chinese triggers. Ray Apelles tuned a trigger for me that felt positively good when he finished. I wrote about that for this blog way back in 2007 in a two-part report titled, Tuning a cheap Chinese airgun. You might want to read that one.
Stage two
And now we come to the second stage. And for those airguns with single-stage triggers, this would be about them as well. In Part One I discussed how a world-class trigger breaks crisply in stage two. You read what Geissele, the trigger company, says about their triggers. Remember their term, “icicle sharp break”? I said that the trigger pull weight really doesn’t make that much difference if stage one is smooth and stage two breaks crisply. But what if it doesn’t?
That brings us back to the Chinese triggers, which includes all the airguns with brand names of companies not based in China but who have their airguns made in China. A creepy second stage ruins any chance for accuracy unless it is consistently creepy and the shooter learns it. If that happens the shooter can edge up to the release point and pretend the trigger is okay.
Not just China
Airguns made in other countries also have the sloppy stage two problem. In fact with few exceptions, all spring-piston guns have sloppy stage-two trigger releases. It is encountered less often in precharged pneumatics (PCP) and CO2 guns because the triggers don’t have to restrain a hundred-pound mainspring.
These days, though, I am seeing PCPs and CO2 airgun triggers with creepy second stages. Their creep is usually minor and livable and I always tell you when I test them how the trigger feels. That, more than anything else, is what sets the Air Arms S510XS apart from the Avenge-X. The Avenge-X may be slightly more accurate, but the S510 has the better trigger.
Can you live with trigger creep?
You better learn to unless you want to pay over a thousand dollars for each airgun, or you can go back in time and buy a Bronco. Maybe a CZ 634 has a good one — I don’t know. I never tested one and now it seems impossible to even find one.
It seems airgun companies either don’t care about the triggers they put in guns they sell, or they don’t have the engineers to design good triggers to begin with.
Summary
The bottom line is — trigger pull weight doesn’t matter nearly as much as trigger crispness.
If you’re selling your airguns in Big Box stores, a “lawyer trigger” is probably demanded by your lawyers. An unfortunate reality.
OhioPlinker,
Maybe those lawyers believe that triggers are pulled with lanyards rather than fingers? We are after all using the “artillery hold”.
Siraniko
You can make mistakes. But the mistakes you make must be always the same. Then you can learn how to overcome it. I have some airguns which trigger is just undefined, you are not able to learn it. So shooting is a bit like guessing, but you never know. This is not ok. The trigger which goes with lot of force but always in the same way would be no problem to shoot.
…and again, did I tell you about the FWB800 trigger already (100 times, or more)?
Tomek,
I’m guessing the trigger on your FWB 800 is one you like? 😉
BB
BB,
I thought the FWB300s trigger is the top end. Nope. It can be done even better. At the moment I’m not able to imagine that there is a better trigger than this from 800 series. Perhaps I did not check so many high end airguns in my life so far – but anyway, there is some level which just can’t be topped.
tomek,
I have pulled on a couple of FWB300 triggers. If the FWB800 series is better, that is incredible. I for one do not know if I could stand that.
RR,
Yes, it is. The adjustement is also incredible. This is the level where I think you might get only “different one” but not better one.
tomek,
As you have said, you have apparently reached a level where the trigger may be a bit different, but not necessarily better.
As I have said, I have owned a couple of FWB300s. I also at one time owned a FWB601. I would have great difficulty even imagining a better trigger. I dare not even go there.
Let us all demand better triggers on our future airguns…
-Y
I second that motion!
Good pun there RG, whether intended or not. 🙂
Yeah, right. Like that is gonna happen. I would strongly suggest that you stay away from Wally World and all the other big box stores.
I always do! I have been in a Walmart just once in my life. Nothing but a front for Chinese exploitation.
Buy American! Except the airguns…
-Y
Yogi,
We agree on this, to a point. It is most unfortunate that though for the most part TCFKAC sproingers may be built here, many of the parts come from across the Pacific. Unlike you, I do have PCPs that are made by AirForce. Even of these I am not sure where all of the parts come from.
The Umarex Embark (made in China) has a horrible trigger. This gun, designed for the SAR shooting competitions, was my pick to teach my kids safe gun handling and marksmanship. Not the best choice.
The trigger had gritty spots and an indefinite second stage. But like B.B. said, you learn it eventually. I could get past the first gritty spot and knew that shortly after the second one, the gun would fire. The pull was heavy too. I never measured it, but the tip of my trigger finger would be hurting after 100 shots.
Why the comment? Well how about triggers that smooth out? The Embark’s gritty spots smoothed out. Not so great, however. Gone was my reference point. It was just a long, heavy, amorphous second stage with no indication of when it would fire. A bad trigger had smoothed out to become worse! And of course, SAR rules say no trigger modifications. The rifle had other problems too like a bore that like to shoot everything to the left.
The Embark is now relegated to future experiments on barrel bending and other arcane mods.
I got the kids Daisy 853Cs. They are accurate and have decent triggers.
RG,
Although I wholeheartedly would support the SAR and what they are attempting to do, I also must disagree on their choice of airguns to use. They are operating on a very tight budget though and the Wang Po Industries Embark is pretty cheap, in more ways than one.
Now, as far as SAR rules are concerned, who cares. Your kids will not be shooting their Daisy 853Cs in any competitions with the SAR. You own the Embark. It is time for some experimentation. Who knows? You might accidentally make that into an almost decent sproinger to own.
Agreed.
I want to elaborate. I agree on your first point. But the Embark would actually be a nifty little gun if only it had a better trigger and better quality control. I was able to eventually wring out a few impressive groups from a $100 gun. Unfortunately, they were at the extreme end of the adjustment range of the peep sight I was using. Something was just not lining up right on the one I received, and I didn’t figure it out until after the return period had expired. If quality control had been even just slightly better, the barrel might have been rejected.
As for your second point, I agree again. I have heard that there are mods for the trigger that would have been illegal for SAR competition, but they are out there. Also, if I can give the barrel a little bend, perhaps I could align things better. But I have more pressing airgun projects right now. I just received delivery of a Diana 28!
RG,
Ah, well. The Embark can most definitely wait. I would not forget about it though. It can be quite pleasurable to take what is obviously junk and make it somewhat usable, as long as you do not expect much from it.
For those interested in fine springers, there’s an R8 for sale on gunbroker:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1062686720
Kevin,
Thanks for this. Once upon a time I would have been all over this to try and have this “old gal” move into RRHFWA. With this post you have unwittingly given to me my next topic for my blurbing. I just hope that BB will publish it.
The truth is, it has been bouncing around in my head for some time, but now seems like a good time to let it out. 😉
Looks nice but it does have issues,
From the seller:
Mechanics: The action does not function correctly. The break barrel mechanism has no spring tension when we attempted to cock the rifle. Additionally, the trigger has no spring tension. It is recommended that this firearm should be evaluated and fixed by a qualified gunsmith before use. We did not fire this pellet gun. As with all used items, a thorough cleaning may be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements.
Without that I might jump on it, but it seems a deal breaker for me.
Mike
Mike,
I did not read that. Those statements make this more interesting to me as I have the required equipment to disassemble and fix what issues it may have. That statement gives a future buyer incredible bargaining power. Hmmm.
For me, there is a major issue though. There are at present nine bids on this sproinger up to an amount of $166.00. I personally would not give that much for it.
Mike,
Yes, I read that in the seller’s description. I also looked carefully at the condition in the multiple photos.
Does not appear that this R8 has been taken apart. Even it if has, and needs parts they are available for an R8.
Unless there are chrony numbers in the description of a used springer I always plan on at least a new spring, lubes and seal when the gun arrives. This equates to opportunity in my view.
Sounds like this might be too much risk for you so I would advise you not buy it.
Isn’t an R8 an HW50?
Roamin,
Yes, kinda.
Weihrauch produced two versions of the HW50. The “older” HW50 and the “newer” HW50.
The old style HW50 was Hans Weihrauch’s favorite gun so it may partially explain why there are more older style HW50 (kissing cousin to the R8) with the plain stocks available from Europe.
Weihrauch is currently producing a gun that is also called a HW50 but this new model HW50 (currently sold by Pyramyd Air among others) is the same powerplant as the R6 (which was formerly called the HW99).
The differences between the old HW50 (R8) and the new HW50 (R6) are:
Old one: threaded end plug like on the R1
New one: press in end plug like on the R9
The piston and chamber are different diameters, The old 50S used the same 25mm piston and seal that the R-8 did. The newer HW50 (aka HW-99 until recently) uses a 26mm piston diameter and seal. The tube sizes are identical in these two guns it’s the id that differs. The newer HW50 tube is thinner. The new HW50 also has much shorter transfer port.
Wow, Kevin, thanks for that detailed essay. I’ll bookmark that for future reference. Is this all in the 13th Bluebook?
Roamin,
Doubt that this information is in the Bluebook.
Kevin
Looks like it sold for 401 bucks, hope the one who won will let us know what it took to fix it.
From the description it sounds like the rifle is cocked and the trigger will not release the sear. Just a trigger problem? Would be nice to know.
Mike
Over the years I have pulled some real nice single and two-stage triggers. I have also pulled on some truly horrible ones. I must admit that over the years I have become something of a trigger snob. Hey, I consider life to be too short to be messing around with horrible triggers.
I also like to tinker. I have learned that some triggers CAN be improved on. Not all, but some. I have taken the AirForce Edge trigger to a very nice, crisp eight ounce let off. The SAT trigger on this Gamo I have right now is sooooo sweet. Although I have not messed with them, I do strongly suspect that the trigger assemblies on the sproingers from TCFKAC can be modified to be pretty decent.
Of course, there are some triggers I will not mess with. Why should I? They are nice to begin with. I do not see me tinkering around with an Air Arms trigger, or a Rekord, or even a Quatro. Again, why should I? When you pull one of these, you will understand.
I have not and will likely never have the pleasure of pulling as many truly nice triggers as BB. I am quite certain that he has pulled on some real dogs over the years. He knows what a nice trigger is. He also knows what a not so nice one is like.
Now, is a trigger all there is to an airgun? Not even. It is but one component to a total package. This is why BB states that the Avenge-X might be a more accurate air rifle than his S510, but the S510 has a much better trigger. Can the Avenge-X trigger be improved? Somebody send me one and I just might be able to do such. 😉
So far, knock on wood, FM feels he’s been blessed with really good or at least pretty decent triggers with his airgun family; of course that would be expected of the Rekord triggers in the Weichrauchs, but even the trigger in the Gamo Whisper Fusion is not so bad. FM is leaving them alone until/if something actually breaks, no pun intended.
FM,
Those triggers on your Maximus’ could stand to be improved. I started work on that one you bought off me, but I do not know if you have done anything with the others. The truth is that it is not a bad trigger to begin with. It is just a little heavy for some of the other trigger snobs around here. 😉
As for your Gamo? I have no idea, but it might be fairly decent. Sometimes almost everybody can get something right.
Have not dived into the Maximi triggers because they work well enough for FM and it is that “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” thing going on there. Comes the time FM has to do some work/maintenance on them, maybe will take a crack at making some improvements. No complaints about the improvements you made to your former Maximus. 🙂
FM,
If they work for you, that is all that really matters. I know this is paraphrasing but, “Beware the man with but one gun.”
My FWB300S is my best trigger but the Walther Olympia is almost too close to call it second best. The Ataman P16 trigger that BB left as is, is also excellent. I have never seen any need to adjust it.. the Gamo Urban is also nice but it may have been made by BSA in UK.
Deck
Deck,
Your Gamo Urban was very likely built in the UK. If you look over the fine print on the Urban, it will likely tell you so.
RidgeRunner
Oh it proudly claims made in UK. The statement appears on the rifle itself. But does that mean all its components are made there?
Deck
Deck,
Well, that is another question altogether. What does “Made In USA” mean these days?
RidgeRunner
In the USA the Federal Trade Commission by law is charged with preventing deception in the marketplace. The FTC Act gives the Commission the power to bring law enforcement actions against false or misleading claims that a product is of U.S. origin. I don’t know how well this is enforced. Judging many ads in news media, integrity is in short supply.
Deck
Deck,
My point exactly. It may be “Made In USA”, but where do the parts for such come from? As with TCFKAC, many of the parts for their airguns were “Made In China”.
Decksniper, RR, and Readership,
https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/advertising-marketing/made-in-usa
RidgeRunner said, “Judging many ads in news media, integrity is in short supply.”
Of course in these days of selective enforcement if Hunter has a stake it might be overlooked. Or one Party might be accused of reducing Social Security (to supposedly save some of SS in the future) all while the other Party is promising to giving away tax breaks like candy all while “investing” some bodies taxes to PAY for it all…or increase the National Debt…? But without a playbook there is NO WAY to know which Party or Candidate promised to do what last or for how much!
But i assure you your airgun was made someplace with parts from somewhere…Vote for shootski!
Airguns for every man,woman, and child!
VOTE shootski; Emperor for Life of the Earth.
You could do worse!
Finally an alternative I can write in!
Shootski, shootski, shootski.
Wait, emperor for life? Wait, what? Of the world? No way! Down with shootski! Out with the emperor! Down with dictatorship!
Roamin Greco,
But i PROMISE
i would be a benevolent ruler.
shootski
Oh, an enlightened despot, eh? How about: absolute power corrupts absolutely. I like you shootski, but respectfully, no thank you.
very spoiled by 1980s HW 30s. I was given a new Beeman 22 China special, I think S something. Cocking was very hard. Seemed accurate, but did not did not shoot it much. Getting rid of it.. Only other springers are a vintage Daisy 99 and an old 70s Daisy BB “rifle”. The 99 trigger is not bad.
sw1917,
The HW30S was made by Weihrauch in Germany. Beeman was bought out by a Chinese conglomerate a while back and started calling their junk Beemans.
I have a 1959 Daisy 99. It is not as accurate as a 499, but it is awesome. If I am not mistaken, I should probably replace the single stage aluminum trigger as it is very, very nice.
RidgeRunner is right, but the Beeman R Series, R9, R7, etc., are still made by Weihraich in Germany, to my knowledge.
B.B. and Readership,
shootski likes any trigger that can be manipulated to cause a gun to complete the shot cycle.
Some are just better than others often times the Objectivity of the matter is far too clouded by the Subjective nature of triggers and their users.
PRESS…SQUEEZE…SLAP…PULL….
The best one is THINK the shot OFF!
Triggers catch a lot of blame for things that they just don’t have much control over!
shootski
“The Avenge-X may be slightly more accurate, but the S510 has the better trigger.”
BB,
That reminds me: when I was still working at the Base, we had a suite of antennas on the roof, and certain birds were wrecking them. We called Base Security, and a few minutes later, a pickup truck showed up, and one of my (non-gun-savvy) friends said, “Hey look; that guy’s got a rifle!” Me: “No, he’s got an air rifle.”
I went over to chat, and it turned out the guy was the resident ‘pester’ that the Base kept on a retainer.
His pest-eliminator of choice was a .22-caliber S510, which he said he picked for its excellent accuracy, decent power level, and wonderful trigger. 😉
Blessings to you,
dave