This report covers:
- Why?
- Because I love you!
- Changed barrels
- Adjust the power
- Description
- Colors
- Barrels
- Trigger
- Sights
- The plan
- Summary
Today we’re going to start doing something we’ve never done before. We are going to begin looking at an air rifle that has been in production for 24 years or so and has been modified and improved over time, but has never had a Gen 2 designation. It’s an airgun that gave us many innovations shooters take for granted today, but before this gun they never existed. Things like shrouded barrels, the ability to change barrel lengths and calibers, the straight line of airflow from the reservoir to the breech, and infinitely adjustable power were all started by the AirForce TalonSS. The tactical “black” air rifle was unknown before the GunPower Stealth that became the AirForce Talon came to market in the 1990s.
But that’s not the new thing we’re doing. What we will do in this series is review the first TalonSS from 2001, followed by a current TalonSS in the same .22 caliber, to see what has changed over time.
My TalonSS was made at the start of the run.
Why?
Why do I do this? I do it because many of my precharged pneumatic (PCP) air rifles have started leaking because I wasn’t oiling them properly. But my 23-year-old TalonSS is still holding air in the reservoir that has never seen the factory or oil since it was produced. It just keeps on going. My Air Arms S510XS is now leaking and I had to order a special Foster fill nipple so I could oil it properly. My Avenge-X leak you already read about. My BB’s Goldie Avenger has quit altogether and the reservoir has to be returned to Pyramyd AIR for servicing because I don’t have the special tools to work on it without damaging the finish. My Crosman MAR177 had lost a lot of air but I oiled it and hopefully got it in time. And you all read that I had to rebuild my Crosman Challenger target rifle to get it to hold air. But every one of my many AirForce rifles still hold air — EVERY ONE!
It’s difficult to determine when I last shot my TalonSS. The last report I can find on the rifle was in October of 2012. I probably shot it since then but I can’t determine when. I think it’s safe to say I have probably not shot it in at least the past 5 years. But after going through all my “modern” PCPs and finding most of them leaking I picked up the SS, dusted it off and fired a shot. Bam! Still holding. When I worked at AirForce I found the “Green Monster” prototype AirForce rifle one day. It was sitting in a pile of cardboard under a packing table. I cocked it and it fired! Who knows how many years it sat around before then?
Because I love you!
I must really love you readers because I installed a 24-inch .22-caliber Lothar Walther barrel in my SS over a decade ago after discovering that it almost doubled the power of the rifle with the same shot count. That was my shootin’ iron for many years. It was accurate, powerful and dependable. But just for this series I replaced the 24-inch barrel with the standard 12-inch Lothar Walther SS barrel.
The TalonSS comes standard with the 12-inch barrel shown above the rifle.
The 24-inch barrel is the way I normally keep my TalonSS.
Changed barrels
It used to take me about 10 minutes to swap barrels in my TalonSS. I would love to be able to tell you that it still takes me only ten minutes to do that — and I can! I changed barrels and topped off the reservoir in 15 minutes. And yes, I did oil the reservoir with this fill, because from now on that’s what I will do with all my PCPs.
To fill the first TalonSS remove the reservoir and screw on the fill adaptor. This one has a Foster fitting added.
Adjust the power
I told you this SS is one of the first ever produced. Let me show you just how early that is. The power adjuster came to me unmarked. I put a piece of tape above the adjuster window that has been there for over 20 years.
My power adjuster came unmarked. The marks on the tape tell me where the power drops off (left) and where the power/shot count is maximum (right).
This is what the power adjuster is supposed to look like.
Description
That’s a lot of explanation before I describe the rifle. I felt you needed to know the background of this particular rifle before we start reviewing it and also looking at all the major contributions the SS model has made to every other PCP.
The TalonSS is a PCP rifle. It is 32.75-inches/831.85mm long and weighs 5.25 pounds/2.38 Kg. It is single shot and comes with a 12-inch Lothar Walther barrel in your choice of .177, .20, .22 or .25 calibers. The barrel can be changed in about 10 minutes, allowing you to increase velocity and change calibers. The 490cc air reservoir doubles as the rifle’s butt and is filled to 3,000 psi/206 bar. Therefore what the TalonSS is, is a compact PCP carbine.
In my experience this rifle averages 850 f.p.s. on high power with a medium weight .22-caliber pellet that in this case is a Crosman Premier. I have been able to get this one down as low as 450 f.p.s. with the same pellet. I will of course test this for you.
Colors
The SS now comes in black, red or blue colors. When I got mine black was all that was available.
Barrels
As mentioned all four smallbore calibers are available and barrel lengths of 12, 18 and 24 inches are possible. Every barrel comes from Lothar Walther. When you install an 18 or 24-inch barrel, the shrouding effect of the outer SS tube is eliminated. I have found that the sound of the 24-inch barrel with the rifle set on high power is about the same as it is with the shrouded 12-inch barrel, which is why I keep mine with the 24-inch barrel.
Trigger
The trigger is two stage and is not adjustable. When new mine had some creep but it’s now quite crisp. The safety on my rifle comes on automatically when the rifle is cocked and can be taken off with the trigger finger.
Sights
The SS comes with no sights and an optical sight is assumed. I’ll have more to say about that when I scope the rifle for accuracy testing.
The plan
The TalonSS has been in production for almost 24 years. As mentioned there have been numerous significant upgrades over the years but AirForce has chosen to not use the Gen 2/Gen3 terminology. My plan is after testing my old SS for you in the standard way is to get get a brand new one in .22 caliber and test it in the same way. As I do I will tell you about all the upgrades that have been made.
Summary
We are starting a series on a long-term production PCP whose very existence has changed the world of PCPs. Yes, it is a single-shot and yes, the straight line of the butt and frame do make adaptation necessary, so in this series you will get to see how well this 77-year-old man is able to cope. It should be fun!
Cool!
This will be interesting.
I have one of the early Gunpower Stealths that was sent to England.
The tank is dated 1998 I think.
It is sub12 ftlbs but accepts Talon tanks when more power is needed.
I guess I will throw that in the mix.
Just an FYI, they shot great then, they do even better with the modern pellets.
Ian.
Ian,
I had to work on John McCaslin for some time to convince him to sell me a Gunpower Stealth. He was very focused on it being a UK air rifle.
BB
Thanks to a friend of mine in England this, one found its way back home to Texas.
Ian.
B.B.
Sounds like an interesting series? In full disclosure mode, please remind us again what you used to do at the Airforce factory?
Does this mean that a real Theoben will also make the blog series?
Happy weekend all!
-Yogi
Yogi,
I had many jobs at AirForce. I built air tanks, tested them, cleaned barrels, tested airguns, talked customers through technical problems on the phone, did parts inventory, deburred and tumbled gun frames and took them to be annodized, tumbled parts, took parts to be hardened, picked up valve bodies after machining, lubricated trigger parts with moly and pretty much did whatever was required. I personally velocity tested the first 100 Condors and recorded their velocities, I rebuilt hand pumps and fixed whatever airguns came in for repairs.
In my three years there I found exactly one Lothar Walther barrel that was not accurate. I cleaned about 20 more and restored accuracy to them that the customer said was not there.
I also had conversations with corporate customers who wanted to know the “real” capabilities of our airguns.
It was an interesting three years.
As for a “real” Theoben, I don’t know what you are asking. Can you please explain?
BB
B.B.
I knew you had worked at Airforce. I had no idea that they kept you so busy…
I understand that Theoben made the “first modern” PCP in the 80’s. I vaguely remember reading about it. This was long before RAW got involved.
-Y
Yogi,
Okay, now I understand. Theoben did not invent the first modern PCP. Daystate did in 1980. Theoben copied a South American gas spring idea and made a spring-piston air rifle with it.
BB
Sorry B.B.
I believe that Theoben made the first springer with a gas ram powerplant.
Not the first PCP, I stand corrected.
-Y
Yogi,
Contact Matt Rutterford. He reinvented the RAW line. He used to work for Theoben way back when.
https://airguns-usa.com
BB
“ And yes, I did oil the reservoir with this fill, because from now on that’s what I will do with all my PCPs.”
Boy howdy. You have stepped on toes and rocked the boat. Will the waves come crashing in? You told me to be patient and now you have delivered the goods. It will be most interesting to see the reactions of commenters over the weekend and beyond if this turns into a series.
Oh, just maybe we learn why Air Force guns don’t leak.
Deck
Deck,
As close as I can tell, AirForce rifles last because they use very few o-rings. Their valve body is sealed with a single large o-ring and I have never seen one that leaks — out of thousands! That’s not to say that ring never fails; just that I have never seen a failed one.
BB
Seems AirForce borrowed the manual from VW – not today’s VW, air-cooled generation VW – build a basic model, make incremental improvements over the years without playing the change designation/nomenclature game, keep things simple, functional as intended and user-friendly. You’d think more companies, regardless of the products they create and make, would try and institutionalize that philosophy, but that will happen – maybe – only after the Winter Olympics are held in Miami, FL.
Humans – very complicated people. 🙂
“…after going through all my “modern” PCPs and finding most of them leaking I picked up the SS, dusted it off and fired a shot. Bam! Still holding…every one of my many AirForce rifles still hold air — EVERY ONE!”
BB,
I strung a couple of your sentences together, since, to me anyway, they capture what is the most interesting thing about this report. AirForce is clearly doing something right if their guns are so tough that they can stand up to neglect more so than all the others. Kudos to them. I look forward to the rest of this series.
Blessings to you,
dave
BB,
ROTFWL! I had just pulled out my old Talon SS yesterday as the next one I was going to test and write about! Mine is serial number BS00710, not near as old as yours.
The Edge that I had traded to you did leak. I applied a little silicone oil to it when I filled it and the leak stopped. That was a looooong time ago. Ever since then I have used that “trick” every few fills on all of my PCPs.
What am I going to do now though. With you telling these folks about your Talon SS, what shall I do now? You may rest assured that I intend to prod you along in your little spiel here to be sure to tell these good folks all there is to know about this air rifle, the many updates it received over the years, more on your misadventures with AirForce, etcetera. Yogi is off to a good start with this.
Just so everybody here knows, this is my second Talon SS. My first one I acquired at a Roanoke Airgun Show after Mac and I did a Tarantula Dance over it and my FWB 601. BB was there and witnessed the entire scene. Just so you know, he had personally built that Talon SS for Mac.
Eventually I changed out the barrel from the twenty-four inch .177 Weihrauch barrel to a twelve inch .25 barrel and traded it off to Gunfun1. I think he still has it.
RR
I do have it still. Just for info purposes the gun is number BS01496. And I do still have the .25 barrel but the gun now has a 12″ .22 barrel in it.
It also has a AirForce Co2 adapter on it with a 3000 psi 13 cubic inch hpa bottle with the bottle regulator set at 1400 psi. The power wheel is set on 1 and if I remember right ìt was shooting JSB 15.89’s at around 495fps.
I haven’t shot it in forever and it’s still holding air. Also checked the old style non spin loc bottle and it still has 1800 psi in it. Which is the optimum fill pressure for that bottle and the .25 and .22 caliber barrels.
Hope everyone is doing well. Have fun shooting and be safe. 🙂
GF1,
I am so glad that you still have it. These are so easy to “morph” from one type of air rifle to another. What is amazing is how accurate every single one of them can be. I do hope you and yours enjoy it for many years to come.
RR
After getting it out yesterday to check to see if it was still holding air. Well I had to shoot it today.
All day to be exact. Did some can killing and target shooting. Still shooting good.
Had a enjoyable day today. That’s what I always have liked about reading the blog. It gets me stirred about doing something one way or another. 🙂
There is something about the AirForce PCPs that keeps me looking at them. There’s also something that makes me hesitant about buying one. Wish I could figure out what it is.
Either way, I’m looking forward to the rest of the series.
Happy Friday all!
Hank,
The reason you keep looking at them is likely K.I.S.S. You would have great difficulty getting much simpler.
The reason you may hesitate is they are single shot. You would have to learn to make sure the first shot counted. I am sure you are already there, but to your mind there is no follow up shot if needed. What many do not realize is with the various aftermarket items, a follow up shot is just as quick as most folks could use a magazine fed airgun.
RR,
In spite of preferring traditional rifles I think that the unique (back then) black form factor got my attention.
And yeah, I’m attracted to practical and efficient designs – complex solutions are easier, simple solutions are impressive.
As someone who successfully hunted big and small game with homemade bows and arrows for years, I’m used to single shot weapons so that’s not a concern 😉
Guess I always thought of the AirForce PCPs as long range sniper airguns and most of my shooting is sub 50 yards.
I’m getting into longer range shooting and would have considered one of the AirForce guns if I had had a chance to try one. I have a lot of positive experience with the FX PCPs so I went for a .22/700mm Panthera for the bench. Still looking at the AirForce rifles.
I’m done buying airguns but might consider trading for an AirForce product if an opportunity came up. No “need” for a larger (than .22) airgun but a big caliber thumper might be fun to shoot.
Hank
Hank
I have a .25 caliber Condor SS that likes a 2000psi fill. It’s a great gun out at 125 yards and just as great at 50 yards and in.
All I have to say is at 50 yards and in it will go in and come out the other side of a racoon with no problem. I shot a coyote at 100 yards with a heart shot a little after I got it. I thought I missed it because I saw a puff of dirt behind it. Till the coyote dropped on the spot.
Oh yeah just to say the AirForce Talon SS and Condor SS are very quiet especially with the new SoundLoc barrel baffles.
Get you one. I’m pretty sure you will be happy with.
Hank, I had been the same way for years. I had looked at Air Force guns and told myself “they can’t be accurate, the scope is too far above the bore. “
And I made so many other excuses to never get one.
Then I did some work for a guy and after I had done the work, he told me he didn’t have any way to pay me except with an Airgun and he handed me a condor in.22.
Ever since then I have been a really big fan of them.
I did trade the condor for a Talon.
I picked up my stealth from another friend.
I traded the Talon for an Edge.
I passed the edge to a friend of mine to get him hooked on Air Force Airguns
I still use the Stealth and have thought of selling it many times because I just don’t use it that often.
But every time I take it out of the case, It’s still holding air and still shooting to the same zero.
I would shoot a few times just to make sure it functions and I would also realize when I put it back in the case that I was never going to sell it..
Now I own two more AirForce Airguns both big bores, and I have no intention of selling those either.
Although I do wish I had an Edge again.
In other words, Hank just get one you will not be disappointed.
Ian.
Thank for the comments Ian!
As I have many more than I can justify, I’m really trying very hard not to buy more airguns.
Still, if a good trade came along I’d be tempted… I’m really a lost cause eh?
Hank
Hank,
I would offer you a trade, but thosej FX airguns are just way too expensive for my taste. At the moment I have a regulated .22 Talon SS and a .457 Texas LSS. I used to have an Edge and would really like to have another show up here.
RR,
The best way to avoid seller’s remorse is to hoard your stuff. 😉
I have five FX PCPs to cover everything from close in squirrel stalking to way out bench shooting. All are permanent residents at VARACC (Vana’s Airgun Resort And Country Club) as is true of my other airguns.
The Talon SS would fit in with the rest of the twenty-two crowd here and that is the AirForce model I’ve been looking at.
Have a great weekend!
Hank
Hank,
LOL! I have had sellers/traders remorse many times in the past. At this point in my life, that is not likely to happen anymore.
I would recommend that you get a Talon SS. You can very easily and rather inexpensively swap calibers and barrel lengths with this as is illustrated in BB’s original reports. They are really quite awesome.
Many are turned off by their not being multshot. What a load of malarky. With a little practice one can shoot these almost as fast as a magazine will allow and certainly more accurate.
I do offer you one warning though. If you start shooting one of these, your FX airguns will likely start clamoring for a little range time. 😉
Vana2,
Totally, “The best way to avoid seller’s remorse is to hoard your stuff. ”
I have a Life Subscription.
shootski
Well, well. I have to admit that the ‘regulated’ part intrigues me. I know that regulator go against the strict adherence to the KISS principle, and – at the risk of being called a heretic – I admit that I like them. In my mind, the tradeoffs are worth it. Did you write about the conversion and the results of it? If not, it could be a subject for a guest blog.
Regulators add complexity and can fail. True. That said, I believe that they offer advantages that exceed their drawbacks. I am old enough to remember when car manufacturers replaced points with electronic ignition, and a bit later carburetors with EFI. In both cases the replacements were much more complex than the originals, and traditionalists stated that they would never be reliable. They affirmed – correctly – that a car with electronics could not be fixed at the side of the road with just wrenches and screwdrivers. True again, but you didn’t have to. After the initial bugs were sorted out, the new devices proved to be much more reliable than the predecessors they replaced. I think that airgun regulators are in a similar category.
Henry
Henry_TX,
The regulator is certainly not K.I.S.S. but if you read down below they are needed for some applications and they are getting better at working with the far higher pressures. The problem was that some builder/manufacturers took lower pressure rated paintball regulators and tried to avoid the engineering costs. Paintball and Airsoft have all been dramatically increasing their input pressures so all boats are rising on the Pressure Tide.
I will always believe that for a low shot count uber power Hunting Big Bore that all you need is a balanced system with a knock open valve.
I will also continue to advocate for sensible upper pressure limit of 260 BAR (3,600 PSI) due to the Gas Laws and the actual compressibility of air which is a REAL GAS not an Ideal Gas.
The Marketing types are just using a new ploy in their sales/arms race.
Perhaps one day the ultra pressure level might have a valve system designed that can flow enough gas fast enough that it will be worthwhile for 3,000+ foot per second 130+ grain projectiles. The reality Thermodynamics (Physics) of Gases are really hard to overcome.
Currently, i just don’t see the purpose for the expense that the R&D would entail.
shootski
Henry,
I too remember points, carbs, etcetera. I want them back myself.
Unlike BB’s, my Talon SS is loaded with aftermarket parts that I guess I will have to focus on in parallel to BB’s report on his Talon SS. Some of these are actual improvements.
One thing you need to keep in mind about regulators is their primary function is to reduce a very high pressure to one that is more usable. The secondary and much more common use in the airgun world is to meter or more closely control the output pressure. This is the lazy man’s approach. Once upon a time this was controlled by the valve. With a regulator, an engineer working for an airgun manufacturer can be more sloppy in the design of the valve. Plenums have now become a part of that mix.
Mrs. RR showed to me a Facebook page that had a picture of a Tesla automobile sitting beside a highly modified ’60’s muscle car. The caption for the picture was “No one will rebuild a fifty year old Tesla”.
RidgeRunner,
” ” Dittos to the MAX!
Will someone rebuild our Republic in fifty years!
shootski
Hank,
The AirForce Texan LSS in .457 is a real nice “big thumper”. My grandson and his friend really like shooting it. At this very moment I have it for sale, but I will likely have to rethink that. 😉
If it were in .25 cal, FM might want to talk turkey with you – realize the CondorSS can be had in .25; you best stop it FM – your “which airgun to get next” decision tree is getting too complicated and unwieldy. Breathe, breathe.
BB,
I have been reading this blog for a number of years and it tends to be a highlight of my day.
After all of this time of the steady ‘drip, drip, drip’ of enabling, I finally caved in and bought a TalonSS last week. I have read and reread your posts about the AirForce guns and finally ran out of excuses to not buy one! It ticks all of the boxes for me. It is simple, accurate, powerful, robust, adjustable and caliber/barrel length can be changed. A big plus is that it is made in the USA.
I feel like the kid who won the amusement park and am looking forward to exploring.
I am also looking forward to the rest of this series, since it will apply directly to my rifle.
Thanks for making my day.
Bill
Bill,
Your comment made my day. Thanks,
BB
B.B.,
There certainly is much for you to shake your Pom Poms all about for the Talon SS…but not for this: “The tactical “black” air rifle was unknown before the GunPower Stealth that became the AirForce Talon came to market in the 1990s.”
That first “tactical “black” air rifle” plaudit most likely belongs to the 1989 introduced Swivel Machine Airrow Stealth Model 8SRB.
http://www.swivelmachine.com/html/stealth.htm
But that was then this is now and the AirForce Talon SS is still being sold.
shootski
shootski,
Gotta disagree with you on that on many levels. . The Swivel Machine Airrow Stealth was a poorly made “air rifle”. The trigger pull was 18 to 25 pounds and had to be yanked to keep the air tank from draining completely. At 40 yards a 4-inch group was the best I could do for five shots. The arrow launcher conversion used CO2 and had the same trigger issue. The circular cylinder had to be manually advanced because the parts fit too tight for the trigger to advance them.
The Swivel Machine gun wasn’t really functional at all. It was just a failed prototype that was produced. The tactical look got raves from the couch commandos but anyone who ever shot one will tell you the thing didn’t work.
I tested both the rifle and the arrow launcher that a reader brought to me when I wrote “The Airgun Letter” and it was an embarrassment! I may have written about it in my newsletter and I hope I didn’t have to lie when I did because that “airgun” was anything but. It was the Yugo of the airgun world.
As far as looks, yes, it does resemble a tactical rifle, but one made by a blind plumber.
BB
Come on, BB,, tell us what you REALLY think about it.
B.B.,
As I told Ed in a Reply below: I own one.
I bought it in 1990 because i was interested in the PCP powerplant after my exposure to the original PCP powerplants in Vienna, Austria’s Kunsthistorische Museum in the early 1980s. https://www.khm.at/en/visit/collections/imperial-armoury/
The problematic take i see in your review was the lack of DarkSide knowledge at that time by the Reviewer as well as most owners and yes even many of the builders in the early days of the modern PCP Renaissance!
The below two items were among the most important modifications to the Stealth platform:
AT11P Air Trigger (Adjustable) Model STEALTH
RG815 Regulator (Adjustable 800-1500 PSIG) Model STEALTH
Folks who found the trigger pull to be “…18 to 25 pounds and had to be yanked to keep the air tank from draining completely. At 40 yards a 4-inch group was the best I could do for five shots.” were certainly the norm. Especially since most were running the gun on 2,000 PSI or even 3,000 PSI air since that was the CO2 and AIR Catalina Cylinders maximum rated fill pressure ALL with NO REGULATOR pressure step down.
I used my knowledge from the paintball world to run my bottles with a Bottle REGULATOR and a Plenum. It certainly was an odd trigger system for most firearm and airgun shooters since it dispensed with a sear or hammer and used a Spool Valve and direct trigger. The problem you experienced with the manual 9 shot magazine was also a number of owners experience due to belonging to — The School of NO Torque Knowledge — as well as no knowledge of Tribology. IF the revolver magazine housing was unevenly or over torqued it leaked blow-by air and/or was very difficult to turn. With proper lubricant choice and correct torque the problem could be eliminated. The builder expected too much knowledge on the part of owners. It certainly was rolled out by Swivel Machine before it could be considered a marketable product by our more recent — Works Out of the Box — needs/standards.
But i sure learned a great deal about the Dark Side in my endeavors to turn it into a shooter.
I ran out of time with my projects today but hope to shoot it for some 30 yard groups tomorrow…it has been in need of an outing in some time…hope it holds air, LOL!
Jess Galen reported shooting dime sized groups in one of his reviews…that must have been one of the modified later regulated versions.
As far as being made by a plumber…the fit and finish would make most of todays airgun machining standards look like they were whittled by a novice woodworker.
shootski
I remember this monster. I had seriously considered one of these, but the price tag at the time made everyone else look pretty cheap. Fred Liady had one of these in his collection.
I had talked at great length to someone at the Airrow company. Supposedly the IDF had bought a few of these in 9mm to give them a try.
I do wish that these were still made. I would really like to have one here at RRHFWA. Now, if you were to loan yours to me, I would be very happy to exercise it some. 😉
RidgeRunner,
See my results…you think you have a chance of a “loan” for anything more than a few well supervised shots?
I guess i will be shooting it some more…it might even get a device to hush it up some. Need to mesure the o.d. on the barrel and see if DonnyFL has an addapter.
As far as my joining you and Blake making the show it is looking very iffy at this time. The Haus renovation is killing most of my days.
I would drive down to Hickory directly IF i can make it…would be fun.
shootski
edlee,
If I’m didn’t know better i would think Tom had some kind of run in with the designer/builder! But the TRUTH is fr more interesting…you see i bought one of the Airrow Stealth Model 8SRB in 1990. I wish I had had the funds to buy a number of the accessories/barrel systems beyond the basic multishot model with .25 Caliber Lothar-Walther barrel.
shootski
BB,
Do you happen to know what modification is done by AirForce to older Condors to fit the Spin-Loc Air Tank?
Bob,
No modification to older airguns is possible.
BB
BB and Bob,
That is not quite so. When I spoke with Rachael a while back, AirForce was willing to modify the old air rifles to the new Spin-Loc system.
What you would do is take out the old set screw that holds the tank collar in the frame, remove the tank collar and then drill and tap the frame on the “side” of the frame so as to have easy access to the set screw for locking the new Spin-Loc collar in position. Please note that there may also be a small bit of machining to do to ensure a proper fit of the new collar. Of this I am not sure.
RR,
Thanks for that. When I asked John McCaslin many years ago he told me it was too much trouble.
BB
BB,
I have noticed that about John over the years. He was already planning on ending the Edge production when you showed him what I had done with the trigger.
Just so you know, the Escape series that Ton supposedly brought to AirForce was already in existence for years.
Bob M,
Contact AirForce.
1.877.247.4867
BB,
Just remembered I commented a while back that I was going to modify a quad-rail to fit the Condor but never found a ‘Round-to-it’.
Someone at Talon Tunes may have read that blog and beat me to the punch. Saved me a lot of time!
Well, I wandered through the gun safe forest and pulled out the Bounty Hunter to see if it was still holding air, 15 years later. Just as I left it. No loss of air.
I put it away back then, 2009, because I realized it did not come with any filling device? and I wanted to keep air in it.
Other new airguns eventually buried it in the safe and I never ordered the servicing tool.
So, yesterday I installed the quad-rail and checked the tank for air. Shot loud and clear. Well not so loud, I have a bloop-tube installed. Noticed the newer Spin-Loc tank looking for the serving adapter and decided to go that way instead. No tank removal.
I noticed that I need to send the rifle back to AirForce to have it modified to receive the new air tank and wondered if I could accomplish the mod myself. Just do not know what is needed to mod it and make it fit?
If what Ridge Runner said is true it sounds simple, but we still don’t know if further machine work is required. The reason I asked.
I assume I would need to then modify the Grip / Tank support, if possible.
One more thing, the backup fixed sights, the rear is stowed under the front for now, are too low (For me anyway) when mounted for use but work fine with the AirForce tri-rail riser. Two needed, front and top but any functioning equal risers will do.
B.B. and Readership,
Only had a little time to get the Airrow Stealth Model 8SRB out of the case and check the bottles for full fill, a drop or two of RWS Chamber Oil in ach of the Foter fill fittings. The bottles and regulators had little or no leak down. I let the scope just as i had put it way (should have reset my ocular since it was last checked and adjusted before my cataract surgery; but it was close enough.) I loaded nine decade old .25 caliber Beeman Baracuda 30 grain pellets and shot them at 30 yards.
The first pellet went low, the next went high, the next seven started to loosely group. I ran out of shooting time since my wife wanted me to watch the Commanders game with her.
I guess i will be shooting this beast some more i had forgotten how much fun it is to shoot. Next time i will set up the Labradar, and shoot some 40 grain bullets (slugs) and other pellets.
The custom Brian & Saul plenum/on-off controller and bottler regulator are still working apparently. I have three more bottle regulators preset to different outputs: 1200, 1400, and 1600 PSI.
Tom, I am so very happy my experience with this early Modern PCP airgun is so much better than the example you got to review! My modifications were a valuable learning experience for me.
I look forward to seeing if the current crop of .25 caliber pellets and bullets (slugs) will make a difference
shootski
B.B. and Readership,
Opps!
Those old Beeman .25 caliber pellets were actually Kodiaks :^I
shootski
I’d like to ask if the information specifically about regulator longevity/reliability found on many places on the internet is true in the year of our Lord 2024. I’ve heard and read a bit about how regulators in use with air guns were subpar and now newer and much better designed ones are in use. Do those last much longer, as long as the gun itself?
Desto,
I answered this in the 2007 posting. Here is what I said.
Desto,
Thanks for thinking that I know the answer. I will try my best to explain. The question is — have regulators gotten better since 2007? I think the answer is no.
No, because regulators are still made in the same way as they were in 2007. Nothing has changed in that respect.
And today’s airguns are demanding more of regulators — stepping down pressures from higher than before. So they fail sooner than before.
If regulators are put in series, stepping down in smaller increments, then they may last longer. But when you increase the number of components in a system (i.e. more regs) then the probability of failure increases, because each one of them carries its own failure probability. Put a thousand regulators in series and it is almost certain at least one of them will fail.
If a regulator is redesigned to work differently than today’s regs work it may increase the lifespan of that reg, but all manmade items are less than perfect.
BB
Uh Huh. I see. Apologies for repeating the same question, I thought that you would prefer to have more comments on your latest posts, is all. So I suppose that if a regulator were to be used in the USFT airgun, or in hypothetical airguns that use even less fill pressure, like 1000 PSI and below, then said regulators could have a long and gentle life, no? or is there something else im missing? Thank you.
Desto,
I will try to cover what you are missing on regulators in airguns.
Every man made thing has a Life Cycle and almost invariably it is shaped like the letter U or as some call it a bathtub curve. Once a device is put into service there are prompt failures at a high rate; also called infant mortality. The failures drop off quickly and the rate of failure usually levels off represented by the bottom of the U. Depending on the design and material choices made this will continue for some period of time and/or service cycles and then there is a typical sudden jump in failures represented by the right side of the U. If the device has multiple subassemblies and one is removed and replaced the total device will still have an overall U shaped failure curve.
The horror FAILURE show begins as more and subassemblies are replaced and the overall device is failing almost every time it is used. The U curve is eliminated and is replaced by a horizontal line representing continuous failures.
The USFT airgun was designed to not need a FLOW Regulator since the knock open valve (the knock open valve is actually a form of regulator! To wit a pulse regulator.) was as near perfect operationally as any ever designed. In its time it was good enough to be World Class without th crutch of a FLOW Regulator.
hth
shootski
I see. I was looking at the USFT’s regulator-less design but was under the impression that it required a lot of custom work that would be un-economical to manufacture at scale at a good price. But with further thinking, this isn’t necessarily true. Thank you. I think I see why a knock open valve already can work like a regulator, as a higher reservoir pressure will open the valve less and for a shorter time, while lower pressures will let it open more/longer. combined with a well engineered hammer and spring strengths for both hammer and valve… I understand!
Desto,
As little as I understand regulators, yes — I agree with you on this.
My question is why. Because a balanced valve like the USFT already has is keeping the pellet in a very tight velocity range. Are you seeking zero deviation, shot-to-shot?
BB
No, just “good shots” as you define it. I was curious about regulators for their ability to increase gas efficiency, though now I understand that they don’t improve it as much as I assumed. I’ve been playing around with an airgun idea in my head, is all.
AirForce Bounty Hunter shipped without an air service adapter.
I made that comment earlier but in hind sight, and I’m not too positive about this, in 2009 or so, there were not that many compact high pressure air compressors available for individuals to own and it was assumed you would take your air rifle tank to a SCUBA Tank servicing facility. PCP’s were not all over the place. Those that did have a compressor were the exception and I guess the price was a bit lower without it being included.
There is even a statement on a website or sales literature … For those who have their own air compressor.
I may be way off with this timeline but I’m sure BB will correct me if wrong. Has this situation with AirForce changed?
Bob,
I don’t know what you are asking. What is an air service adapter? And what are you saying AirForce did not do? And did they correct it when told?
BB
BB,
Sorry, All I am saying is there was no refill adapter included with my A/F Bounty Hunter when I received it back in 2009 or so. I could not refill the air reservoir and stored it away for many years and procrastinated in ordering one till the other day.
I was not sure if it was ever intended to be included in the box because most people did not have a high-pressure compressor back then, but they offered the servicing adapter separately if you did, I assume.
I just really did not remember when compact HP air compressors like the shoe box became available to make my assumption as to why a fill adapter did not come with the air rifle.
Was the air refill adapter ever included with AirForce rifles when purchased?
Bob,
The refill adaptor was supposed to be in all new AirForce airguns. I never saw one pf their rifles that didn’t come with one.
A call to AirForce at the time would have gotten you one right away.
BB
BB,
In hindsight I guess I should have but I assumed I would have to take it to a place that could fill it like a scuba shop that had some sort of special attachment. I was not aware that any refill adapter existed.
As I recall, I had no CD or DVD player to access the operating manual at the time? Not even sure if I had a hand pump yet.
All is well now. Adapter is in the mail.
It did come with a black similar looking bottle protector cap that may have been put in by mistake? Probably not. Looks like another included item for safety transport.
Bob,
That other thing is probably a tank degasser.
BB
BB.
Yes, it does appear to be one. Quite a substantial cap. However, there is no mention of one on the AirForce website. An obsolete item?
And then I found this paragraph. They claim the fill adapter only came with their air pump or refill clamp and now they state that the fill adapter can be used to empty the air reservoir, using dimes inserted into it.
I’ll bet they decided to do away with the degasser I had received back then and added a thread reducer to the fill adapter to accept a quick release Foster fitting and be used independent of the refill scuba clamp with an air pump and started putting it in every air rifle box.
Using dimes in it made the degasser redundant.