Crosman Challenger PCP target rifle.
How we fix them today (Part 1 to this report)
Part 2
Part 3
This report covers:
- Does it hold air?
- The test
- RWS R10 Match Pistol pellets
- JTS Simply wadcutters
- Qiang Yuan Training pellets
- H&N Finale Match High-Speed
- Puff of air at breech
- Summary
Today we take the Crosman Challenger that we resealed in August and shoot it for accuracy. This is the final test of this air rifle in this series.
Does it hold air?
After the last report in August I filled the Challenger to 2000 psi using the Air Venturi G9 hand pump. Then I set it aside for 80 days. Today it still has a full fill, so I reckon the leaking problem is fixed.
The Crosman Challenger gauge 80 days after a fill.
I looked at past results and saw that Qiang Yuan Training pellets were the most accurate in this rifle, and RWS R10 Match Pistol pellets were also pretty good. So I selected them and two other wadcutters for this test.
The test
I shot the Challenger from a sandbag rest at 10 meters. Each target was shot with five pellets.
RWS R10 Match Pistol pellets
First up were RWS R10 Match Pistol pellets. Since the rear sight was removed for the overhaul I thought I might need to sight in the rifle and that proved correct. The elevation was okay but the windage was off, with the pellets striking to the right by two inches It took me two shots to get into the bullseye.
Five R10 pellets made a 10-meter group that measures 0.228-inches between centers. In 2020 five of the same pellet made a 0.137-inch group, so this one is significantly larger. I made a mistake measuring the group the first time, which is why the trime comparison coin was used.
The Crosman Challenger put five RWS R10 Match pistol pellets into a 0.228-inch group at 10 meters. I show the trime comparison coin because I measured the group incorrectly the first time. I initially thought it was 0.187-inches between centers, but a second check showed it was larger. The cutout at the upper left of the group I didn’t measure initially because it looks too small to be a pellet hole, but the second time I did include it in the measurement.
JTS Simply wadcutters
Next to be tested were five JTS Simply wadcutters. These have done well in some airguns and poorly in others. In the Challenger they did very well, making the smallest group of the test at just 0.143-inches for five shots at 10 meters. That wins the gold dollar comparison coin.
1
The Challenger put five JTS Simply wadcutters into a 0.143-inch group at 10 meters. That hole to the right of the group is the second sight-in shot.
Qiang Yuan Training pellets
The third pellet I tested was the Qiang Yuan Training wadcutter pellet. Five made a 0.145-inch group at ten meters.
Five Qiang Yuan Training wadcutters went into 0.145-inches at 10 meters.
H&N Finale Match High-Speed
The final pellet I tested was the now-obsolete H&N Finale Match High-Speed. Five went into 0.393-inches at ten meters. That’s not so good in comparison to the three other pellets.
Five H&N Finale Match High Speed pellets made a 0.393-inch group at 10 meters.
In case you forgot, these are the comparison coins.
Puff of air at breech
I now feel a puff of air at the breech of the rifle with every shot. I’m sure it comes from the transfer port seal I installed, because I don’t think I got that seal in properly. After these 20 shots the rifle’s gauge still shows 1800 psi which is high in the green zone. I doubt I will do anything about that seal unless someone comes up with an improved seal that really works. I’m still getting over 50 shots per fill.
Summary
This is the last report in this series. We have gone from a leaking rifle that didn’t work to one that is back in fine fettle. I learned a lot in this series and I hope you did, too.
“The Challenger put five JTS Simply wadcutters into a 0.143-inch group at 10 meters.”
BB,
I’m glad to see you got her fixed and she’s back “up to snuff.”
That’s a better group than I could shoot on my best days; she looks like a winner in my book. 😉
Blessings to you,
dave
BB,
Not too shabby. It has been quite some time since I have shot one-hole groups, even if it is just five shots. 😉
I think I am in need of another match rifle around here.
Tom,
Nice to see that it is back in working order. Going to make an entire series in resealing your other PCPs?
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Well, I will talk about resealing them. I don’t think it will be a series though.
BB
Tom,
Indeed it doesn’t have to be a series, but if each one presents a unique case to illustrate the cause of the leak and how to fix it you might as well make an article out of it.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
I almost have to because the time it takes me to do the work cuts into my daily time for the blog.
BB
BB,
Maybe you should do a report sometime on how you go about preparing the daily blog.
Most of us on here read the blog each morning with our coffee and take it as for granted as our daily bread.
I suspect a lot more work goes into the blog than we realise. It would be nice to get a peak behind the scenes and it might even give us an enhanced appreciation for our daily fix of all things airgun related.
Bob,
I have done that several times, or at least I have tried to. There will be just a little in tomorrow’s report about that.
BB
Bob it took me a month to put together my guest blog on the Diana Model 24 J (not full time, but still…). That B.B. puts out a blog per day is amazing.
RG,
Yes, and the man never seems to take a day off. He’s like a machine!
“Next to be tested were five JTS Simply wadcutters. These have done well in some airguns and poorly in others.”
I get similar disparities with JTS pellets. Most of my rifles don’t like them but a few prefer them. While typically every rifle prefers a specific pellet the differences are less dramatic. Can’t help but wonder what causes JTS pellets to behave this way. Or is it an unexplained variable whose cause is never to be unpacked?
Deck
Deck,
Maybe it is part of Uncle Xi’s “master plan” to rule the world. First claim all of the South China Sea, then have USA airgunners doubt themselves and their abilities. Mmuhahahahahahaha!
RidgeRunner
Aha, I thought so. Obviously an AI molecule injected into pellets.
Deck
Deck,
The wonders of nanotechnology never cease. The question becomes whether they, referring to Uncle Xi’s cohorts, copied the technology from us or others. I will not credit Uncle Xi’s cohorts with an original thought. That comes much later.
Don’t underestimate them. But if the world is willing to give them all their technology why would they waste their own resources trying to come up with their own new technology? Of course even if they do develop their own, you wouldn’t know about until they wanted you to…(too late).
RG,
Technically, they are stealing it. The problem is no one, with the exception of myself, is willing to call them on it and burn the vast majority of them off the face of the earth, most especially Uncle Xi and his cohorts. Hey, the Chinese military just may thank us for it. The Chinese people would, I am sure.
Don’t forget those scrap metal sales to Japan in the years before Pearl Harbor; Ford built trucks for the German military as well through their Ford-Opel subsidiary in Germany – for example, the Opel Blitz truck and other models. Later, Ford built a truck factory for the Russians in Kama, former Soviet Union in the ’70s. The agreement was these trucks were not to be used for military purposes, until of course they showed up in Afghanistan during the Russo-Afghan war. In fact, Ford first signed a contract to help the old USSR develop its cargo truck industry in 1929.
Civilian FM salutes and honors all veterans who “show up” for this blog – much appreciation and blessings to all of you who serve or have served so that FM can be free to spill his silly thoughts here.
FM,
Spill away my friend, you have my permission.
The captains of industry care only for the almighty dollar. They will gladly sell weapons to both sides as long as it is profitable. Because of various financial kickbacks that they receive, the politicians will turn the blind eye until the voters learn of it. Even then, the fellow politicians of all parties concerned will do their best to cover such up as they also will benefit. The stupid voters believe them and let them.
Show me an honest politician and I will show you someone who is not in office.
“Show me an honest politician and I will show you someone who is not in office.” Or is dead; well, that is the ultimate way of not-being-in-office. 😉
Only if we are blessed.
Hi BB,
Would you be able to comment on the lifespan of PCP pressure vessels? In airguns, I like to buy older and used, it’s part of the fun to refurbish tired airguns and suits my personality. And now there are 15 and 20 year old PCPs like the Crosman Challenger 2009 and others. What are the safety considerations for buying older used PCPs? Do the high pressure reservoirs hold up indefinitely? Do they fatigue and weaken with use and time? Thanks!
-Andy
rillburgher,
From a legal perspective it depends on your Country’s laws on pressure vessels; many have adopted the USA DOT code.
For a very good practical guide to the whole subject: https://lsindustries.com/dot-testing-of-low-and-high-pressure-gas-cylinders/
What Lawyers will use if something happens: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/178.35
In the USA if the diameter is at or under two inches (2″) it falls outside of the formal inspection requirements.
From my fifty years of training, practical experience, and personal observations:
Buy gas cylinders, parts, fittings, and airguns from ONLY reputable sources.
For the two inch or under reservoirs they usually are not what fails but the valves, fittings, and fill hoses and assemblies do.
You need do your part and not: drop, dent, or over pressurize them. One very important note is to NEVER EVER store them in a totally unpressurized condition.
They can last well beyond our lifetimes and many have and will.
shootski
PS: BONUS Source: https://www.usasafety.com/regulations.php?srsltid=AfmBOookvGXM151qOZLuflmvW9Hl1OK_xsZjvUGq_a_ZA_UXiZby5tj2
Andy,
This is a tough subject. There are laws to keep people safe and yet pressure vessels from the 1700s are known to still hold air.
Indefinitely is a long time and, like the axe murderer’s mother said, “We never saw any signs of a problem.” There usually never is, until there is.
What you see is the relaxation of certain laws to allow continued use, once historical data has shown that it’s safe.
The smaller the air tube diameter, the fewer problems usually associated with it, unless it was either home-built or modified in some way. In that case, all bets are off.
How’s that for waffling on the answer?
BB
Thanks BB and shootski,
Nice to have waffling with a dose of safety regs and legalese! But thank you because what you say makes good sense, that provenance matters. If buying a PCP from an original owner who’s treated and maintained the airgun responsibly, things will be fine.
Best,
Andy
Puff, the magic Dragon…
Nice shooting B.B.! Nice to see groups you can cover with a thumb nail.
-Y
B.B. and Readership,
For all the readership who are Veterans:
Happy Veteran’s Day!
For the rest:
Also, Happy Armistice Day!
For some:
let Carnival Season begin 11.11:11!
shootski
shootski,
Ahhh! Fasching! :}
BB
B.B.,
Have my Krapfen, have my soft pretzels, need to load the Confetti Cannon.
shootski
shootski,
Ein bier, bitte!
BB
B.B.,
Better still to be serious about it:
Ein Maß bitte! :^)
Just make certain to hold up your Thumb and not your index finger since that would get you two; since you obviously have lost your Thumb.
shootski
Had to be a VERY Happy Armistice Day in 1918, shootski. Sadly, “The War To End All Wars” did not.
FawltyManuel,
There Will be War by Jerry Pournelle was a series of Military/Science fiction volumes that covered the realities supported by essays written by Military and Analyst thinkers. I started reading it when i was involved with work on the proto SDI in the late ’70s and early 80’s involving the improvement of our active and passive Observation Capability.
Although i seldom use wikipedia as a resource this holds up well until the typical last few sections. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Defense_Initiative
It covers very well the Ted Kennedy and Joe Biden early involvement in attempts to discredit the Ronald Reagan plan; the question in my mind will always be who were they working for?
I doubt it was for the USA.
shootski
shootski,
If we ever meet, please remind me, I have an interesting story to tell about SDI.
The problem with SDI was that it was enormously expensive and many scientists were dubious whether it would work. It was so expensive that when USSR tried to keep pace; scientifically and technologically; that it bankrupted the country and lead to the downfall of the Iron Curtain. Here we are 35-40 years latter and if we can keep the sanctions in place against Russia, we should be able to bankrupt them again within 1-3 years.
Now we have Chinese killer satellites in space…
-Yogi
Yogi,
I will remind you to tell your SDI me when we meet.
I will share an observation beforehand on the estimate of the enormous expense of SDI. Yes it would have cost even more if we had continued to pursue Rail Guns and LASER Weapons that will probably never work given existing then and now materials and power supply technologies; i leave some room for breakthroughs. (The Rail Gun at Dahlgren was a rusting scrap heap the last time i kayaked past.) The flying LASER YAL-1A testbed aircraft(s) is collecting dust in the desert. But i must hand it to the the AIR FORCE and the US Army for Rail Gun technology for persistence in the face of failure(s) has continued the effort to more failures:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/05/17/air-force-abandons-plan-mount-laser-weapon-fighter-jet-after-scrapping-similar-gunship-project.html
https://www.twz.com/19460/u-s-army-forges-ahead-with-its-railgun-as-navys-commitment-to-the-tech-is-questioned
What we did get from the SDI exercise was the collapse of the U.S.S.R/C.C.C.P. and the U.S. Navy building C4I systems that made the shootdowns of ballistic Missiles over the Near East possible; using MISSILES from US Navy Ships at sea; some 40+ years later.
There are a great many advances to optics, RADAR, LASERS, targeting in civilian and scientific areas that came to pass as a direct result of the oft denigrated “Star Wars” program which had nothing to do with Hollywood Space Westerns.
Had we continued to pursue the more logical parts of the SDI, dropping the rail guns and LASER Weapons to R&D efforts ONLY, we wouldn’t be faced with the substantial ICBM/SLBM RISKS we are facing today from our friends and adversaries.
shootski
One of the guys at the range was a developer of the laser guided missiles we saw in Desert Storm. He had a Thomas’s FT gun. When he quite competitions due to age he gave the gun to a fellow shooter. At the time he said, “this gun deserves to be at the World FT Championships.
The guy who he gave it to was a pretty regular participant at said championships…
-Y
PS here is hoping Trump keeps the sanctions.
Shootski and all the other Veterans,
Happy Veterans Day! Happy Armistice Day!
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Thank you!
shootski