The 1910 BSA air rifle I had to abandon, due to UK laws.
This report covers:
- Buying airguns from UK Auction houses
- Step 1. Win the airgun
- Step 2. Send the money
- Step 3. Shipment
- Abandoned my purchase
- UK laws
- Summary
I don’t enjoy negative reports and this one is the worst I’ve had to write in my 20 years with this blog. But this information needs to get out and I have all of it through my unfortunate recent experiences. However, there is some hope at the end.
Buying airguns from UK Auction houses
I know that British airgunners buy and sell the vintage airguns we like for far less money than we see here in the US. Air rifles like the 1910 BSA underlever pictured above might sell for $500 or more in the US, while in the UK they can go for $250 and less. So why not buy one from a UK auction house and have it shipped over here? Private owners ship airguns from the UK to the US all the time. Surely this works?
Well, it doesn’t, and don’t call me Shirley! Today I will describe in detail my experience trying to buy an airgun from a UK auction house that opened a lot more eyes than just mine.
Step 1. Win the airgun
I registered with The Saleroom whose website directed me to Auctioneum auction house in Bristol. In their weapons and militaria timed auctions I located the 1910 BSA underlever air rifle shown above. Bidding opened at £75, as best I can recall. The auction estimate was £90 to £120. I placed a maximum bid of £175, which is $220.5 US. That’s cheap for what appeared to be a very nice air rifle. Even with the estimated £100 shipping fee that they told me to expect, it was a bargain. Then I waited and watched.
There were other bids against me that drove the bid all the way up to 175 pounds, but when the hammer fell on Dec. 23, I was the winner. Auctioneum Bristol sent me an invoice right away and I raced over to my bank branch, which is Wells Fargo — a large US bank. I have purchased many airguns from reader Carel in the Netherlands this way and I knew I could send a wire transfer for free from my business account. That was my first mistake.
Step 2. Send the money
At my bank branch I asked to see a bank officer to send the transfer and was told the only one there would not be available for hours. Hey, it was Christmas and I understood. Could I please go to another local branch to do the transfer? Sure! So I drove a few miles to another Wells Fargo branch.
The bank officer there did not know how to make international wire transfers!!! She looked at my invoice from Auctioneum and could not find what she called the Swift code. It was on the invoice but it was labeled the BIC code and she didn’t know that is another name for the Swift code. No joy there!
The day after Boxing Day (UK holiday) I wondered whether I could just use the Wells Fargo app on my phone to make the wire transfer myself. And I could! It was so easy! But when I got to the end of the form it asked me for a code I did not know. So I made an appointment to see a bank officer at my own Wells Fargo branch. When I arrived she was ready for me and everything was hunky dory.
I told her about my problem with the Wells Fargo app and she asked me to open it for her. Indeed all my information was there and just one code was lacking. She showed me where that code was on the invoice. I entered it and voila — the information was complete! After I checked each entry again, she had me hit the ENTER button and the app told us the information was received! Both she and I believed the transaction was completed. I thanked her and went home. Then the waiting began.
That was on December 27. By January 5 the money had still not been taken from my business checking account and Auctioneum had asked me three times where their payment was. I thought their bank was just slow but I went back to my bank to check. This time I saw a different bank officer. He called Wells Fargo headquarters and discovered that no transaction had been made. Then he examined the app on my phone and found it to be correctly filled out.
Then he asked me if I had hit the SUBMIT button. You had to scroll down to see it and I hadn’t done that because the app said the transaction was complete and the previous bank officer had said we were finished. He had me hit the submit button and, indeed, this time the transaction was made as intended. So, three bank officers were required to make a simple wire transfer using the Wells Fargo app. Oh, and instead of being free I was charged $25 for the privilege of using their app!
I had been blaming Auctioneum for my problems when it was actually the Wells Fargo employees who didn’t know their jobs. Only the last man to help me knew what he was doing and I thank the Lord for him! But the fun wasn’t over.
Step 3. Shipment
Yep, now it was time to ship the air rifle to me and I will cut the story short. Over the next two days I tried to set up a shipment with the UK Mail Boxes, Etc., UPS UK and one UK gun dealer — only to be told after a half hour of struggling with each of their website entry forms that air rifles are restricted items that cannot be shipped from the UK. So I went back to Auctioneum and asked Max, who was helping me, for help. He suggested a particular Mail Boxes, Etc. store in Bristol so I contacted them. Here is their response:
Hi Tom,
Thanks for your enquiry.
Even though you have bought an air rifle and not a firearm in our experience if a customs officer looks at it through a scanner there is a good chance it will be destroyed.
Sorry we couldn’t be of service.
Abandoned my purchase
I notified Auctioneum I had to abandon my purchase because it seems there is no way I can ship an airgun out of the UK. They came back and told me they would relist it in a March auction and transfer the proceeds to my bank. I will lose some money, but not everything. They are doing all they can and I can’t ask for more than that!
UK laws
Here is today’s point. The laws of the United Kingdom apparently don’t allow a shipping business to ship an airgun out of the country. They can ship it within their borders without any problems, but it can’t leave the country. I’m guessing that a business needs a license to ship a restricted item like an airgun out of the country. I don’t know that, I’m just guessing.
Summary
Despite the great prices, I warn you not to try to purchase an airgun in a UK auction. I have omitted many pages of whining on the chat forums over this same issue, but know that a great many others have learned the same lesson.
You should be able to buy almost everything else in a UK auction and find it quite rewarding. They typically sell antique furniture for pennies on the dollar. Just stay away from the airguns.
“Despite the great prices, I warn you not to try to purchase an airgun in a UK auction.”
BB,
Thank you!!! As you said, “this information needs to get out”…for sure!
I WAS looking to get an air rifle (like the one you almost scored here) from the UK.
Now, I will stop that effort; their laws have gotten too crazy…it’s really quite sad.
I’m so sorry you were not able to get that rifle shipped here.
But thank you for posting this information!
Blessings to you,
dave
B.B.,
Bummer!
Sorry that you had such a rotten experience.
“UK laws
Here is today’s point. The laws of the United Kingdom apparently don’t allow a shipping business to ship an airgun out of the country. They can ship it within their borders without any problems, but it can’t leave the country. I’m guessing that a business needs a license to ship a restricted item like an airgun out of the country. I don’t know that, I’m just guessing.”
Does anyone in the Buyer Department at PAir have knowledge about export licenses or process from the UK? They could even charge an appropriate fee for the service and you would come out ahead in the end. Probably less frustrating so worth the S&H charge.
shootski
shootski,
Not really.
This auction house deals mainly with people from the UK, so that is where their attention lies. Yes, folks from other countries buy from them, but it’s almost always an item that can be shipped. What I tried to do was something very niche-y, and they have no experience with it — until they do.
I’m not faulting them, nor the UK laws, because every nation has laws. The US outlawed silencers for most of my life. Same-same.
This is why I felt this report was so important.
BB
B.B.,
I understand why you felt it was important to inform your readership on the Impossibility or near impossibly of success in your transaction.
I also understand that you wanted to have this air rifle.
Thank you,
shootski
Can folks from the EU buy airguns from UK auctions? Is so, would someone from the EU be able to act as a buyer’s agent to arrange for the shipment to the EU and then to the USA?
Shipping airguns from Canadian auctions to the USA is equally challenging.
Roamin,
I’m pretty sure the answer is no. The laws apply to everyone. Companies like Air Arms have licenses to ship (I think) and private individuals may just be playing the odds of no Customs interception.
BB
I once saw a Sheridan Model A sell for $5,000 on eBay. Then I saw one for sale on a UK auction site. I toyed with the idea of buying it, knowing I could make a tidy profit here in the USA, but I could never get a straight answer on the cost of shipping. So I let it slip away.
Vassili I think it could be a problem even with the way you described. Sites in UK sometimes clarify that you must either collect the airgun by yourself or have it sent to an arms dealer of your choice. There is the matter of taxes applied also. Remember my own experience with trying to send back an HW35E? Although the return label was created by the Spanish seller UPS asked me to follow procedures of gun export! The Old Continent is becoming more and more oplophobic.
Tom,
I quite understand the difficulty in sending something overseas with draconian laws in effect. For anybody trying wonder why Philippine air rifles are sold at a premium there despite being relatively cheap is that getting them out of the country requires a lot of permits. Relatively easy if it’s being carried by somebody, but sending it alone or in bulk? Forget about it. You need to be an established company with licenses before you can even think of exporting an air rifle. Sorry to hear about your travails.
Siraniko
PS Section Step 1. Win the airgun
1st paragraph 2nd sentence: “In their weapons and militaria timed (themed) auctions I located the 1910 BSA underlever air rifle shown above.”
Siraniko,
No, in this case the timed auction is a type of auction and is correct.
BB
I think the problem is less U.K. laws, and more:
1. Over-cautious sellers/auction houses. Especially since Brexit made international business harder and laborious.
2. Over-zealous customs officers (at both ends) who cannot tell the difference between an old air rifle and a tactical nuclear weapon.
In addition (personal experience, my wife is American), most US banks seem not to recognise that there is a world beyond the 50 states – they just aren’t set up for doing international business in a timely and efficient fashion.
US Customs won’t let “Really good” replica airsoft guns enter the US if it has a copyright name of the original firearm company on it. As a really nice ‘Replica” should have. Asians are very good at dealing with problems.
They cover it with black RTV sealant. Out of sight, out of mind.
Now I have an outstanding realistic full size all metal M60 Airsoft machine gun.
Must have really freaked out customs when they x-rayed it but in the end it was legal. Yes, they did open and inspect it with all the zest of a young boy opening a BB rifle box at Christmas. Hell of a mess when I received it with US Customes tape all over the place.
B.B.
Sorry no sympathy, you should know better! All UK airgun site say that they will not ship either complete airguns or just barrels internationally.
There are 2 ways to do it:
-Find somebody who will pick up at a firearms dealer and transport to the Netherlands and ship from there.
-Cheapest flight to UK from Dallas, Fort Worth, that I found was $700. Bring a TSA approved case with you and bring it home in your luggage.
Otherwise, it serves you right for being ignorant of UK laws…
-Yogi
PS Shipping airguns from Germany is not much easier.
Yogi,
Thanks for those kind words.
BB
Sorry Tom,
Sometimes the truth hurts.
-Y
Sorry you had all those troubles BB. Thanks for informing us. It’s sad what things have come to in the name of security. We went through Vancouver and Toronto on the way back from Alaska a few years ago. I was somewhat surprised that a retina scanner was employed as we went through security (customs) in the airport in Toronto before we could board the airplane back to the USA. It didn’t used to be this way.
Elmer,
More reasons to not fly.
Back twenty something years ago my late parents actually did drive from GA to Alaska and back. Took something like 30-days.
ROAD TRIP!
Sounds like a good trip to me.
P.S. I quit flying quite some time ago.
Elmer
“It didn’t use to be this way”.
In about 1965 my dad and I boarded a plane in Chicago headed to either Billings or Bozeman, Montana. The plane was filled with deer and antelope hunters carrying their rifles in their laps. There was a time when even bad guys didn’t care to blow up or by some means kill themselves and people they didn’t know.
Deck
Deck,
I remember we could have firearms in the gun rack in our trucks at school. Try that now.
P.S. My grandson was almost arrested the other day for having an engineering pencil as it can be used as a weapon.
“If the law supposes that,” said Mr. Bumble, squeezing his hat emphatically in both hands, “the law is a ass – a idiot”. -Charles Dickens, author, in “Oliver Twist,” 1838
FM for one is happy to be living in a country that had the sense to kick out Georgie Porgie III in 1776…otherwise we’d be living submerged in one very large bureaucracy as subjects, not citizens. Hopefully We The People can continue to keep such nonsense at bay but that requires eternal vigilance and involvement in the political affairs of the country. Regret your bad experience, Tom and hope you get most if not all your money back. Not sure FM would even try to personally bring an airgun out of the UK – nothing says it could not be confiscated by the “authorities” at the airport or port based on some bureau(c)rat’s whim and/or wilfullness.
BB
I too have done business with Carel. Shipments are always prepaid by Carel and arrive at my door. Only once did a customs’ examination of a vintage Walther Olympia temporarily screw up the cocking mechanism. Thanks to Carel and friends of his in the states I was able to fix it.
Just wondering if Carel could help get you that old BSA.
Deck
BB,
Pooky! I was hoping for the opposite. I was looking forward to your take on the old BSAs.
I have seen some very good prices for airguns “over there”. I had noticed that the Chambers’ site had a caution concerning the shipping of airguns out of the UK. I had intended to contact them concerning such.
For FM and others,
The UK is now in the process of outlawing knives as the “terrorists” are having difficulty obtaining firearms and explosives. In some countries the “terrorists” have switched to motor vehicles. Are these to be outlawed?
In Germany, an airgun is only allowed to have an output power of 7.5 Joules which is not much. In the UK an air rifle is only allowed to have an output of less than 12 FPE and an air pistol less than 6 FPE, unless you have a FAC (Fire Arms Certificate). In China, you are not allowed to own an airgun, much less a firearm.
You can buy a nice airgun made in Germany. You can buy a nice airgun made in the UK. I am told you can buy a nice airgun made in China. You just have to buy it over here, for now.
The laws in other countries concerning firearms and airguns can indeed be quite a maze. The laws in some of our states can be just as complicated. Perhaps this will be sorted out in the near future. Knowing what I do concerning our elected officials and the bureaucrats they appoint; I doubt it.
The obvious solution is to control and deal directly with extreme prejudice against terrorists and criminals. However, that supposes that sane types are in control of the government and understand that natural and moral law mandates you impose punishments and burdens on malefactors, not citizens. Seems the King’s subjects will soon be required to eat their meals with their fingers because cutlery will be outlawed.
The mad ones are definitely trying to lock up the sane ones in the asylum, world-wide.
FM,
We are fortunate in that we are old enough that we will not likely live long enough to see that. We are old enough though to know that right and wrong are not necessarily legal and illegal.
Besides, if we punish everybody, we might get the right one. 😉
BB,
There is a bright side to all of this, at least for me. I do own a 1906 Lincoln Jeffries Model BSA. I guess I am going to have to break down and tell everybody about it.
Shipping airguns from the UK is possible- Holts (an auction house) even link to a YouTube video on international shipping from the UK.
The YouTube video is at https://youtu.be/DpZoZcKGI_E?si=sHOYXwe3sP7yTW_n
Here in the UK air weapons are considered firearms if they have more than one joule of muzzle energy. The 12ft lbs muzzle energy number is the point above which you need to hold your air rifle on a firearms certificate.
Within the UK auction houses can only ship firearms to a registered firearms dealer and only a small number of carriers will transport guns.
Pre1939 air weapons have fewer shipping restrictions within the UK but I’m unsure of the differences in rules for international shipping
Recently, the Wall Street Journal was examining why our economy is doing so much better than the EU or for that matter, the rest of the world. One reason (not the only) given was that the USA innovates. The EU regulates.
Tom, your dealings with Wells Fargo and the UK must have been inordinately frustrating. What an experience to go through over the holidays. Well, better days ahead for us all!
Fred formerly of the Demokratik Peeples Republik of NJ now in snow free Georgia
Very good point – also believe you have far more life and lifestyle choices here than in most of the rest of the world. For the most part we are also spared a lot of the toxic taxation that goes on elsewhere and whose sole purpose seems to be to keep unnecessary/useless bureaucracy alive. One could write a book on the subject but FM will pass on that – prefer spending time shooting.
See how much fun you got rolling with this blog entry Tom? Thank you for that! This is meant sincerely.
End of rant by FM, thankfully and willfully living in the Free State of Florida. Actually, it is not that free…a lot of things have gotten expensive around here. Still, it is better in the Sunshine State than in a lot of other places too numerous to mention.